Herbal Pharmacology

[Guest guest]

Gabriel,

Thank you for sharing your experiences in Taiwan. Your points are very well

taken, and remind us that we are still in the formative stages of Chinese

medicine in the West. Until we require medical Chinese language in our schools

from the beginning, and include the core literature of the classical medicine,

we will not be up the caliber of practice in places such as Taiwan.

Unfortunately, only a small number of people have been able to pull off such

long-term study in an Asian country such as yourself, you are fortunate indeed.

Folks like myself have had to struggle to learn Chinese on our own, and study

study study without much of a support group. What a dream, to meet with several

hundred colleagues in the mountains to discuss the classics and debate the

commentaries! But treating patients, teaching and studying make it difficult to

make that leap. . .

 

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> Hello Z’ev

> This semester I’m much busier than what I’ve been in the past, with full

load of classes and my studies outside the school I just don’t have that much

time to participate in these discussions. As far as your question I can’t talk

for the mainland regarding this particular topic, but in Taiwan most researchers

and MS as well as PhD students are only given a few choices as to what Journals

they can publish in (SCI Journals). They do great research that stands up to

any western medical criteria. That said if you want to graduate you have to

publish and design your research along certain guidelines which are considered

to be the standard across the western medical field. That’s why you won’t

see that many Yi Jing Yi sh medical classics and medical history papers coming

out of Taiwan, there still many but they are published in journals of medical

history or published in mainland or Taiwanese local journals that don’t offer

impact factor points

> . How this translates to clinical practice, well it varies from practitioner

to practitioner some may incorporate the newly found evidence into their

practice and some will keep using what has been useful and consistent to them it

all depends, as far as memorization of æ¡æ–‡ or lines I would have to say that

by memorizing you have access to the information in a very intimate way that

allows you to compare it to other lines and play with it in your mind, which I

have to say is a necessity if you’re seeing the amount of patients that these

guys do.

> Best regards,

> Gabriel Fuentes

>

> --- On Thu, 4/29/10, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, April 29, 2010, 12:56 PM

>

>

>

> Gabe,

> Always good to hear from you. ... as you've pointed out, there are rigorous

programs in the classics in Taiwan and China. I know, for example, Feng Ye, who

co-compiled the Practical Dictionary of CM with Nigel Wiseman, has basically

memorized the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue and written great commentaries.

However, from your perspective, how has this translated out into clinical

practice on the mainland, especially acupuncture/ moxa? Much of what gets into

the Chinese journals or over here is rather formulaic.

>

> We are just at the beginning of the Chinese medicine phenomenon in the West,

and I for one am concerned that we are able to keep the branches connected to

the trunk and roots of the tree, otherwise I fear we will become like

osteopathy, where only a minority actually practice according to the original

principles of that discipline, and basically practice biomedicine.

>

>

> On Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

>

> > I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU,

Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program

and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined

western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree

after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you

will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the

Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are

insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools,

Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these

students go thru.

> > Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and

they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids

memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and

I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese

students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As

far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe

is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very

broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do.

> > My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

> >

> > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

> >

> > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

> > RE: Herbal Pharmacology

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

> > Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good thoughts, Genevieve.

 

This is why I've expressed the view that we should be slow and cautious when it

comes to the 'integrative medicine' trend. .. our own knowledge base in the

profession is still quite young and tender, and needs more development, more

translation, more Chinese language skill, and more study and practice of the

Chinese classical texts. . . .we don't even have decent translations for a

majority of these texts, and they are not being taught in the CM schools

largely. .

 

I am trying to implement a historical approach to the study of Chinese herbal

formulas at PCOM, but it will take some time to bear fruit. . .

 

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Genevieve Le Goff wrote:

 

> Hi Stephen and Kokko,

> I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming obvious

to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our profession...

deeper than what i thought.

> I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of sufficient

classical education in schools. This isn't likely to get better as the

percentage of herb questions diminishes on the state board exam.

>

> Studying in chronological order is a very interesting pedagogical

suggestion. It is how all material is taught in Waldorf schools; Rudolf Steiner

thought that learning should mimick history in order to make cohesive sense.

This approach is slower in the beginning, but accelerates rapidly as the mind is

growing in the same fashion as the historical tree of ideas - that is,

algorithmically.

> Being fairly new in my studies, it has often come to my mind that i lacked

historical perspective when analysing formulae. I also see many students who,

when they get to study SHL or JGYL, struggle to convert these thoughts into 'TCM

language' - which ultimately limits us. A historical approach from the get go

would eliminate this problem.

> In order to achieve this we way we are taught single herbs would also

probably have to be re-visited (SNBCJ etc...) so that classical formulae can be

understood in their context.

>

> In defense of TCM (...NOT! as Arnaud would say), there would probably need

to be some kind of 'horizontal learning' (historical being vertical in my mind

at this moment) classes, where we would compare the different approaches for a

given presentation... but i think that should come at the end.

> Probably it would take longer studies to do it that way... but for such a

better result!

>

> Another problem is the State Board... the license exam would need to be

remodeled to mirror this (that would take a revolution!), or else TCM

descriptions of formulae would need to be taught (maybe at the end, with the

comparative class?)

>

> I am deeply shocked by the lack of identity of our professional body, and

me that can only mean that our education as a whole must not give us a strong

treillis for our minds. Think of the fanciful growth of a vine: with no treillis

it does not thrive; it is the rigidity of the treillis that gives it the

opportunity and the leisure to wander and curl within the allowance of natural

conditions, for its own delight and that of those who look upon it.

>

> Genevieve.

>

> ________________________________

> stephen woodley <learntcm

> Chinese Medicine

> Fri, April 30, 2010 6:53:17 AM

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

>

> Hey Kokko

>

> Kokko

> if Wen bing is not considered 'classical' Chinese medicine, but

> pre-modern, would it be included in a " classical Chinese medicine "

> teaching curriculum?

>

> Stephen

> Even though the time period is not " classical " (IMO) I don't think a

> complete program could ignore Wen Bing Xue.

> I would love to see schools move formulas studies onto a time-line

> structure

> Han

> Song

> Jin-Yuan

> Ming/Qing

>

> or something like that as you have suggested

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> www.shanghanlunsemi nars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software

> or over the web

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr Robert C. Sohn mastered TaiJi in only 2 years but he was already a real

4th Degree Black Belt in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and a Master at Yoga.

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/30/2010 6:55:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

joe.messey writes:

 

Lastly, mastery of Taiji, music or this medicine cannot possibly be

obtained

in only 6 or 7 years. As Westerner's we should avoid the arrogance of

thinking we have done anything but scratch the surface after 20 years of

practice.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 Hi Gabriel,

 The corruption that runs rampant affects our medicine, as with the people who

do not have proper training. It is a phenomena which has always been under

discussion here in Ontario and with my teachers. We currently have a highly

placed member of a government appointed TCM council who is not who they say

they are. It is heart-breaking.

 I have had this discussion with many Taiwanese and Chinese nationals, and a

few Koreans, so I am well aware of the diversity of opinion, although the

anti-west sentiment runs deeply though sometimes subtly.

 Thanks for your time, I know you are busy.

 

 Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120

Chinese Medicine

Fri, 30 April, 2010 12:34:10

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

Hugo

First of all, I’m not a politician and I don’t live in the mainland, and

honestly don’t care about some of the political issues that are going on

there. My intent in coming to this country was to learn the language and improve

my Chinese medical skills so I could ultimately better help my patients.  That

said, I am fully aware about the corruption that goes on in the mainland, I’m

also aware of the many westerners and thousands of Chinese that have paid for

their degrees with red envelopes, and many are in the west teaching classes and

some are even school owners. I would dare to say that very few people in this

list know anything about this; actually I would also dare to say that many just

don’t want to know. It’s heart braking! I also did not say that Chinese

medicine is healthy in China, but there is still people practicing Classical

medicine you just have to look for them. I would suggest you take a little

extended trip over the pond and

find these things out for yourself, don’t take second hand information.

Best regards

Gabriel

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Genevieve

totally agree

 

Genevieve

.... I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming

obvious to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our

profession... deeper than what i thought...

I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of

sufficient classical education in schools.

 

Stephen

I would agree that this plays a big role in the problems that you

mention

 

Perhaps it is human nature to get defensive when someone challenges

one's opinion as it is rooted in a belief system...and there are many

belief systems out there. We ALL believe that our opinion is " true "

(otherwise, why would we hold that opinion?) It takes maturity to accept

that someone else might have a perfectly valid opinion that contradicts

our own (working on that one)

 

Genevieve

A historical approach from the get go would eliminate this problem.

 

Stephen

I like this idea more and more...

Much of the curriculum is mandated to the schools, so I think that there

is plenty of resistance to making such a change.

I wonder if Z'ev would like to comment on how receptive his school and

students are to this idea.

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

[Guest guest]

That's great Z'ev! How are you doing it? (how are you breaking it down into

classes?)

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Fri, April 30, 2010 11:03:55 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

Good thoughts, Genevieve.

 

This is why I've expressed the view that we should be slow and cautious when it

comes to the 'integrative medicine' trend. .. our own knowledge base in the

profession is still quite young and tender, and needs more development, more

translation, more Chinese language skill, and more study and practice of the

Chinese classical texts. . . .we don't even have decent translations for a

majority of these texts, and they are not being taught in the CM schools

largely. .

 

I am trying to implement a historical approach to the study of Chinese herbal

formulas at PCOM, but it will take some time to bear fruit. . .

 

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Genevieve Le Goff wrote:

 

> Hi Stephen and Kokko,

>    I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming obvious

to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our profession...

deeper than what i thought.

>    I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of sufficient

classical education in schools. This isn't likely to get better as the

percentage of herb questions diminishes on the state board exam.

>

>    Studying in chronological order is a very interesting pedagogical

suggestion. It is how all material is taught in Waldorf schools; Rudolf Steiner

thought that learning should mimick history in order to make cohesive sense.

This approach is slower in the beginning, but accelerates rapidly as the mind is

growing in the same fashion as the historical tree of ideas - that is,

algorithmically.

>    Being fairly new in my studies, it has often come to my mind that i lacked

historical perspective when analysing formulae. I also see many students who,

when they get to study SHL or JGYL, struggle to convert these thoughts into 'TCM

language' - which ultimately limits us. A historical approach from the get go

would eliminate this problem.

>    In order to achieve this we way we are taught single herbs would also

probably have to be re-visited (SNBCJ etc...) so that classical formulae can be

understood in their context.

>

>    In defense of TCM (...NOT! as Arnaud would say), there would probably need

to be some kind of 'horizontal learning' (historical being vertical in my mind

at this moment) classes, where we would compare the different approaches for a

given presentation... but i think that should come at the end.

>    Probably it would take longer studies to do it that way... but for such a

better result!

>

>    Another problem is the State Board... the license exam would need to be

remodeled to mirror this (that would take a revolution!), or else TCM

descriptions of formulae would need to be taught (maybe at the end, with the

comparative class?)

>

>    I am deeply shocked by the lack of identity of our professional body, and

me that can only mean that our education as a whole must not give us a strong

treillis for our minds. Think of the fanciful growth of a vine: with no treillis

it does not thrive; it is the rigidity of the treillis that gives it the

opportunity and the leisure to wander and curl within the allowance of natural

conditions, for its own delight and that of those who look upon it.

>

> Genevieve.

>

> ________________________________

> stephen woodley <learntcm

> Chinese Medicine

> Fri, April 30, 2010 6:53:17 AM

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> 

> Hey Kokko

>

> Kokko

> if Wen bing is not considered 'classical' Chinese medicine, but

> pre-modern, would it be included in a " classical Chinese medicine "

> teaching curriculum?

>

> Stephen

> Even though the time period is not " classical " (IMO) I don't think a

> complete program could ignore Wen Bing Xue.

> I would love to see schools move formulas studies onto a time-line

> structure

> Han

> Song

> Jin-Yuan

> Ming/Qing

>

> or something like that as you have suggested

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> www.shanghanlunsemi nars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software

> or over the web

>

>

[Guest guest]

Stephen

Perhaps it is human nature to get defensive when someone challenges

one's opinion as it is rooted in a belief system...and there are many

belief systems out there. We ALL believe that our opinion is " true "

(otherwise, why would we hold that opinion?) It takes maturity to accept

that someone else might have a perfectly valid opinion that contradicts

our own (working on that one)

 

Genevieve

I am so glad you say this very fair statement! Fairness is a rare quality in

debate.

This very thought has been playing devil's advocate in my head for a few days.

What to us sounds like the canon of Chinese medicine, creates upheaval in the

belief systems of those who have been trained solely in TCM... maybe to them it

only sounds like a bunch of new-age pseudo-revival self-righteous outdated stuff

(what? Ren Shen replenishes fluids?...on and on).

 

From the perspective of human fellowship, of course one should try anything

he/she thinks might work to help another. But i think that is an ethical issue

somewhat separate from that of the definition of .

 

One cannot argue that what helps, helps.

One cannot argue that the Chinese classics are undoubtedly the pilars of our

medicine.

And one cannot argue that Scenars and other electric devices are not part of

these cannons, that the very principles of the technology that enables them go

against the careful appreciation of natural rythms, and let's say the Nei Jing

at large (how was that for a sweeping generalization ? ).

 

So, going back to others' perceptions of classical Chinese medicine, because of

the overlap of these delicate issues, maybe the individual is not to blame, but

rather the system that allowed the dilution of our roots.

 

Is this our collective identity crisis???

 

 

 

 

________________________________

stephen woodley <learntcm

Chinese Medicine

Fri, April 30, 2010 12:26:13 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

Hi Genevieve

totally agree

 

Genevieve

.... I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming

obvious to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our

profession.. . deeper than what i thought...

I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of

sufficient classical education in schools.

 

Stephen

I would agree that this plays a big role in the problems that you

mention

 

 

Genevieve

A historical approach from the get go would eliminate this problem.

 

Stephen

I like this idea more and more...

Much of the curriculum is mandated to the schools, so I think that there

is plenty of resistance to making such a change.

I wonder if Z'ev would like to comment on how receptive his school and

students are to this idea.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm working on that right now. . .

 

Z'ev

On Apr 30, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Genevieve Le Goff wrote:

 

> That's great Z'ev! How are you doing it? (how are you breaking it down into

classes?)

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Fri, April 30, 2010 11:03:55 AM

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Good thoughts, Genevieve.

>

> This is why I've expressed the view that we should be slow and cautious when

it comes to the 'integrative medicine' trend. .. our own knowledge base in the

profession is still quite young and tender, and needs more development, more

translation, more Chinese language skill, and more study and practice of the

Chinese classical texts. . . .we don't even have decent translations for a

majority of these texts, and they are not being taught in the CM schools

largely. .

>

> I am trying to implement a historical approach to the study of Chinese herbal

formulas at PCOM, but it will take some time to bear fruit. . .

>

>

> On Apr 30, 2010, at 10:37 AM, Genevieve Le Goff wrote:

>

> > Hi Stephen and Kokko,

> > I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming

obvious to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our

profession... deeper than what i thought.

> > I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of sufficient

classical education in schools. This isn't likely to get better as the

percentage of herb questions diminishes on the state board exam.

> >

> > Studying in chronological order is a very interesting pedagogical

suggestion. It is how all material is taught in Waldorf schools; Rudolf Steiner

thought that learning should mimick history in order to make cohesive sense.

This approach is slower in the beginning, but accelerates rapidly as the mind is

growing in the same fashion as the historical tree of ideas - that is,

algorithmically.

> > Being fairly new in my studies, it has often come to my mind that i

lacked historical perspective when analysing formulae. I also see many students

who, when they get to study SHL or JGYL, struggle to convert these thoughts into

'TCM language' - which ultimately limits us. A historical approach from the get

go would eliminate this problem.

> > In order to achieve this we way we are taught single herbs would also

probably have to be re-visited (SNBCJ etc...) so that classical formulae can be

understood in their context.

> >

> > In defense of TCM (...NOT! as Arnaud would say), there would probably

need to be some kind of 'horizontal learning' (historical being vertical in my

mind at this moment) classes, where we would compare the different approaches

for a given presentation... but i think that should come at the end.

> > Probably it would take longer studies to do it that way... but for such a

better result!

> >

> > Another problem is the State Board... the license exam would need to be

remodeled to mirror this (that would take a revolution!), or else TCM

descriptions of formulae would need to be taught (maybe at the end, with the

comparative class?)

> >

> > I am deeply shocked by the lack of identity of our professional body, and

me that can only mean that our education as a whole must not give us a strong

treillis for our minds. Think of the fanciful growth of a vine: with no treillis

it does not thrive; it is the rigidity of the treillis that gives it the

opportunity and the leisure to wander and curl within the allowance of natural

conditions, for its own delight and that of those who look upon it.

> >

> > Genevieve.

> >

> > ________________________________

> > stephen woodley <learntcm

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Fri, April 30, 2010 6:53:17 AM

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> >

> >

> > Hey Kokko

> >

> > Kokko

> > if Wen bing is not considered 'classical' Chinese medicine, but

> > pre-modern, would it be included in a " classical Chinese medicine "

> > teaching curriculum?

> >

> > Stephen

> > Even though the time period is not " classical " (IMO) I don't think a

> > complete program could ignore Wen Bing Xue.

> > I would love to see schools move formulas studies onto a time-line

> > structure

> > Han

> > Song

> > Jin-Yuan

> > Ming/Qing

> >

> > or something like that as you have suggested

> >

> > Stephen Woodley LAc

> >

> > www.shanghanlunsemi nars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software

> > or over the web

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

 Hi Gabrielle, I feel that putting technology at the centre of this indentity

crisis is a red herring (I am not sure if this is your position). As Donald

pointed out, the Chinese have always been pragmatists first and foremost - they

were interested in what works, and as such always used the latest technology

available.

 As far as our identity crisis, I feel it is sourced in China's identity crisis

- as the sons and daughters of China, we will emulate the parent. What is the

solution? Deep Nei Dan and / or Chinese language study leading to study of the

classics.

 

 Thoughts?

 

 Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

So, going back to others' perceptions of classical Chinese medicine, because of

the overlap of these delicate issues, maybe the individual is not to blame, but

rather the system that allowed the dilution of our roots.

 

Is this our collective identity crisis???

 

____________ _________ _________ __

stephen woodley <learntcm (AT) fastmail (DOT) fm>

 

Fri, April 30, 2010 12:26:13 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

Hi Genevieve

totally agree

 

Genevieve

.... I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming

obvious to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our

profession.. . deeper than what i thought...

I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of

sufficient classical education in schools.

 

Stephen

I would agree that this plays a big role in the problems that you

mention

 

Genevieve

A historical approach from the get go would eliminate this problem.

 

Stephen

I like this idea more and more...

Much of the curriculum is mandated to the schools, so I think that there

is plenty of resistance to making such a change.

I wonder if Z'ev would like to comment on how receptive his school and

students are to this idea.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail .fm - The professional email service

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Genevieve

" But i think that is an ethical issue somewhat separate from that

of the definition of . "

 

Stephen

you seem to echo the sentiment voiced by Martha

I do wonder what the effect is on the perception and development

of the Chinese medicine community when so many things are

misrepresented as Chinese medicine or " based on " Chinese

medicine.

 

Many " modernists " cry out for the right to innovate. I wonder how

many realize that this desire to change things is a cultural

artifact.

 

I also think that when masters innovate (Li Gao or Ye Tian Shi)

we should take notice (even if we chose to practice in a

different style). A big problem is that most of those who want to

" innovate " lack the fundamental knowledge and skills (much less

mastery!) to have standing to innovate on that which they/we know

so little of. ~ my opinion

 

I would also say that we need to be careful in the use of words

such as " ethical " as it is sure to ruffle feathers. I absolutely

agree that this type of misrepresentation does a huge disservice

to our profession and to the public at large.

 

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree with you more Hugo. Thanks. However, you might try Nei Dan

techniques such as daoyin and tu na, that's what I practice daily along with a

set of Chen and Yang Taiji

 

 

 

I am sincerely,

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 21:30:05 +0000

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Gabrielle, I feel that putting technology at the centre of this indentity

crisis is a red herring (I am not sure if this is your position). As Donald

pointed out, the Chinese have always been pragmatists first and foremost - they

were interested in what works, and as such always used the latest technology

available.

As far as our identity crisis, I feel it is sourced in China's identity crisis

- as the sons and daughters of China, we will emulate the parent. What is the

solution? Deep Nei Dan and / or Chinese language study leading to study of the

classics.

 

Thoughts?

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

So, going back to others' perceptions of classical Chinese medicine, because of

the overlap of these delicate issues, maybe the individual is not to blame, but

rather the system that allowed the dilution of our roots.

 

Is this our collective identity crisis???

 

____________ _________ _________ __

stephen woodley <learntcm (AT) fastmail (DOT) fm>

 

Fri, April 30, 2010 12:26:13 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

Hi Genevieve

totally agree

 

Genevieve

.... I am glad you are discussing this constructively as it is becoming

obvious to me over the past few days that there is a deep schism in our

profession.. . deeper than what i thought...

I am convinced that this division has its roots in the lack of

sufficient classical education in schools.

 

Stephen

I would agree that this plays a big role in the problems that you

mention

 

Genevieve

A historical approach from the get go would eliminate this problem.

 

Stephen

I like this idea more and more...

Much of the curriculum is mandated to the schools, so I think that there

is plenty of resistance to making such a change.

I wonder if Z'ev would like to comment on how receptive his school and

students are to this idea.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail .fm - The professional email service

 

 

[Guest guest]

What qualifies someone to be able to judge? We are always seeking

certifications and so are the Chinese. But I note that nobody certifies the

great Chen and Yang Taiji masters. Who certifies the Master?

 

 

 

What " certifies " the Master are the results of his skill as compared to " lesser

ones. "

 

 

 

So. Who judges the innovations in our medicine? No disrespect intended. But

should someone with a Master's degree judge those of a Doctorate? Or should it

be the other way around? Not that degrees necessarily mean anything, but

" something " must mean something.

 

 

 

Just my two cents,

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Donald J. Snow, Jr., D.A.O.M., MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

learntcm

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 14:50:00 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Genevieve

" But i think that is an ethical issue somewhat separate from that

of the definition of . "

 

Stephen

you seem to echo the sentiment voiced by Martha

I do wonder what the effect is on the perception and development

of the Chinese medicine community when so many things are

misrepresented as Chinese medicine or " based on " Chinese

medicine.

 

Many " modernists " cry out for the right to innovate. I wonder how

many realize that this desire to change things is a cultural

artifact.

 

I also think that when masters innovate (Li Gao or Ye Tian Shi)

we should take notice (even if we chose to practice in a

different style). A big problem is that most of those who want to

" innovate " lack the fundamental knowledge and skills (much less

mastery!) to have standing to innovate on that which they/we know

so little of. ~ my opinion

 

I would also say that we need to be careful in the use of words

such as " ethical " as it is sure to ruffle feathers. I absolutely

agree that this type of misrepresentation does a huge disservice

to our profession and to the public at large.

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

 

 

[Guest guest]

A very good point. Innovation has always been based on a strong foundation of

knowledge in any medical tradition.

 

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 2:50 PM, stephen woodley wrote:

 

> Hi Genevieve

> " But i think that is an ethical issue somewhat separate from that

> of the definition of . "

>

> Stephen

> you seem to echo the sentiment voiced by Martha

> I do wonder what the effect is on the perception and development

> of the Chinese medicine community when so many things are

> misrepresented as Chinese medicine or " based on " Chinese

> medicine.

>

> Many " modernists " cry out for the right to innovate. I wonder how

> many realize that this desire to change things is a cultural

> artifact.

>

> I also think that when masters innovate (Li Gao or Ye Tian Shi)

> we should take notice (even if we chose to practice in a

> different style). A big problem is that most of those who want to

> " innovate " lack the fundamental knowledge and skills (much less

> mastery!) to have standing to innovate on that which they/we know

> so little of. ~ my opinion

>

> I would also say that we need to be careful in the use of words

> such as " ethical " as it is sure to ruffle feathers. I absolutely

> agree that this type of misrepresentation does a huge disservice

> to our profession and to the public at large.

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no pop-ups email service

>

>

[Guest guest]

Don said:

What qualifies someone to be able to judge? We are always seeking

certifications and so are the Chinese. But I note that nobody certifies the

great Chen and Yang Taiji masters.

 

Joe sez:

Interesting examples. Having studied Taiji over 20 years I can say:

It's not very difficult to determine who is a master. Watch them move and

then push hands. Mastery will be clear in a matter of seconds (I am NO

master, but you don't have to be one to recognize mastery in another)

 

Lastly, mastery of Taiji, music or this medicine cannot possibly be obtained

in only 6 or 7 years. As Westerner's we should avoid the arrogance of

thinking we have done anything but scratch the surface after 20 years of

practice.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev said:

Innovation has always been based on a strong foundation of knowledge in any

medical tradition.

 

Joe sez:

very nicely put

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Donald:

What " certifies " the Master are the results of his skill as compared to

" lesser ones. "

 

Stephen:

The problem with basing judgment on short term results of only a few

patients is that we don't know whether there are long-term negatives

that will crop up later.

There are those who criticize the casual use of Extraordinary vessels as

tapping in to something very deep to get quick results in treating

" ganmao " but draining something deep and essential to gain this. A poor

trade-off that will only show up many years later.

There are those who criticize " allergy elimination " techniques as only

pushing a pathology deeper and creating a latent pathology that will

return to haunt the patient.

 

If we rush headlong into " innovation " and gimmicks we might do

unintended harm, mislead the general public and delude ourselves as to

what to do and what is ok

If we follow time-tested diagnostic methods and draw appropriate

conclusions - we are absolutely practicing the proven tradition that we

are trained and licensed for.

 

Donald:

Who judges the innovations in our medicine? No disrespect intended.

 

Stephen:

A legitimate point.

I refer to what I wrote above and say again, we should be very slow and

judicious in any attempt to change anything that is 3000 years old (give

or take 100)

Remember that physicians innovated with Xrays 100 years ago and

shortened their patient's and their own lives. A slower, more patient

pace might have held them back until more understanding of this energy

could be accumulated (I am NOT saying electrostim systems are deadly)

 

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

[Guest guest]

Innovation potentially happens with every treatment. Every clinical encounter

with every patient is unique, and we bring the medical tradition alive in this

interaction.

 

 

On Apr 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus wrote:

 

> Or a strong foundation of success.

> Are we trying to say that no one should innovate, because no one is worthy

> enough to do so? Maybe we need another 12 semester Masters degree.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I also disagree. It can be mastered in 6 or 7 years. There are prodigies every

where. Just because " you " can't master something doesn't mean someone else

can't.

 

But that still begs the unanswered question. Who judges what is?

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:15:58 -0400

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

Dr Robert C. Sohn mastered TaiJi in only 2 years but he was already a real

4th Degree Black Belt in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and a Master at Yoga.

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/30/2010 6:55:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

joe.messey writes:

 

Lastly, mastery of Taiji, music or this medicine cannot possibly be

obtained

in only 6 or 7 years. As Westerner's we should avoid the arrogance of

thinking we have done anything but scratch the surface after 20 years of

practice.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The question is still left unanswered. So many opinions and decisions. What a

quandary we have.

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

learntcm

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:08:46 -0700

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Donald:

What " certifies " the Master are the results of his skill as compared to

" lesser ones. "

 

Stephen:

The problem with basing judgment on short term results of only a few

patients is that we don't know whether there are long-term negatives

that will crop up later.

There are those who criticize the casual use of Extraordinary vessels as

tapping in to something very deep to get quick results in treating

" ganmao " but draining something deep and essential to gain this. A poor

trade-off that will only show up many years later.

There are those who criticize " allergy elimination " techniques as only

pushing a pathology deeper and creating a latent pathology that will

return to haunt the patient.

 

If we rush headlong into " innovation " and gimmicks we might do

unintended harm, mislead the general public and delude ourselves as to

what to do and what is ok

If we follow time-tested diagnostic methods and draw appropriate

conclusions - we are absolutely practicing the proven tradition that we

are trained and licensed for.

 

Donald:

Who judges the innovations in our medicine? No disrespect intended.

 

Stephen:

A legitimate point.

I refer to what I wrote above and say again, we should be very slow and

judicious in any attempt to change anything that is 3000 years old (give

or take 100)

Remember that physicians innovated with Xrays 100 years ago and

shortened their patient's and their own lives. A slower, more patient

pace might have held them back until more understanding of this energy

could be accumulated (I am NOT saying electrostim systems are deadly)

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That's what it sounds like to me, doesn't it?

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 18:00:00 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Or a strong foundation of success.

Are we trying to say that no one should innovate, because no one is worthy

enough to do so? Maybe we need another 12 semester Masters degree.

 

-

" Joe Messey " <joe.messey

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, April 30, 2010 3:51 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

> Z'ev said:

> Innovation has always been based on a strong foundation of knowledge in

> any

> medical tradition.

>

> Joe sez:

> very nicely put

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Again, oh yes it can. Go back to your Taiji example. Ever hear of Yang Cheng

Fu. Read his bio. He was pretty much self taught.

 

 

 

A disagreement, and an example.

 

 

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

joe.messey

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:49:36 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Don said:

What qualifies someone to be able to judge? We are always seeking

certifications and so are the Chinese. But I note that nobody certifies the

great Chen and Yang Taiji masters.

 

Joe sez:

Interesting examples. Having studied Taiji over 20 years I can say:

It's not very difficult to determine who is a master. Watch them move and

then push hands. Mastery will be clear in a matter of seconds (I am NO

master, but you don't have to be one to recognize mastery in another)

 

Lastly, mastery of Taiji, music or this medicine cannot possibly be obtained

in only 6 or 7 years. As Westerner's we should avoid the arrogance of

thinking we have done anything but scratch the surface after 20 years of

practice.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Having been a practitioner of Okinawan karate for 27 years, I find a claim of

mastery in such a different art (kinesthetically), in such a short time, as

Taijiquan highly suspect. My current Sensei, and his father before him, deflect

such accolades as detrimental to their training as well as antithetical to the

ideals of budo.

 

And yes, the question still remains: who says who achieves " mastery " ?

 

-Everett

 

 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

[Guest guest]

When you cross hands with someone who makes the claim, you will quickly find out

who the charlatan is.

 

 

 

That is my point. It is oh so easy to talk, therefore, " let's see. "

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

pine.village.tcm

Sat, 1 May 2010 00:11:58 +0000

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Having been a practitioner of Okinawan karate for 27 years, I find a claim of

mastery in such a different art (kinesthetically), in such a short time, as

Taijiquan highly suspect. My current Sensei, and his father before him, deflect

such accolades as detrimental to their training as well as antithetical to the

ideals of budo.

 

And yes, the question still remains: who says who achieves " mastery " ?

 

-Everett

 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is a fun game, isn't it? Now we can see why it is no wonder we, as a

group, cannot move forward.

 

 

 

Still no answer to the primary question.

 

 

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, Jr., DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:22:03 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Let's say the Dalai Lama dies and is reincarnated. At age 10, how long will

it take him to attain " mastery " of dharma or Buddhist teachings? Let's be

real. People could have 1,000 lifetimes of training and discipline behind

them, and we'd never know it.

 

-

<pine.village.tcm

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, April 30, 2010 5:11 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

> Having been a practitioner of Okinawan karate for 27 years, I find a claim

> of mastery in such a different art (kinesthetically), in such a short

> time, as Taijiquan highly suspect. My current Sensei, and his father

> before him, deflect such accolades as detrimental to their training as

> well as antithetical to the ideals of budo.

>

> And yes, the question still remains: who says who achieves " mastery " ?

>

> -Everett

>

>

> Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

>

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

> and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

[Guest guest]

Touche'

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:24:27 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

Even if we're using a Scenar?

 

-

" " <zrosenbe

<Chinese Medicine >

Friday, April 30, 2010 4:22 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

> Innovation potentially happens with every treatment. Every clinical

> encounter with every patient is unique, and we bring the medical tradition

> alive in this interaction.

>

>

> On Apr 30, 2010, at 6:00 PM, Mercurius Trismegistus wrote:

>

>> Or a strong foundation of success.

>> Are we trying to say that no one should innovate, because no one is

>> worthy

>> enough to do so? Maybe we need another 12 semester Masters degree.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122