Herbal Pharmacology

April 29, 2010

Yes you can. Precision electronics out of Canada has a microstim unit that

looks much like the original my-o-matic that I love so much. These are

frequency programable and FDA approved.

Never assume anything. If you are looking for it, it's probably out there and

you just haven't found it yet.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:28:02 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

You can adjust electro-acupuncture machines. But you can't tune in (or

program) specific frequencies like you can on a Rife machine or an

Electroherbalism machine.

I'm not saying his wife was " the " real physicist. I have no idea about

that. I'm saying that she was " a " real physicist.

Einstein was a patent clerk who failed math. Everyone says, " He didn't do

physics as well as anyone, but he just throught more creatively. " LOL.

Please.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/index.htm

Like I stated before. Einstein had alot of good things to say. But his

theories weren't one of them. Nor were they orginal ideas.

-

" " <johnkokko

Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:44 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Mercurius,

>

> ...they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines.

> There are also voll and vega test units.

> and acu-pointers.

>

> I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment.

> Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist?

> and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared?

> What't the name of the documentary you stated ?

>

> K

>

> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> magisterium_magnum wrote:

April 29, 2010

Don,

Chinese medicine is not about technology, needles, moxas or " Chinese herbs " .

It is about a medical philosophy, specific principles that have been in force

for 2000 years. If one is grounded in the principles of the medicine, one can

use any therapeutic modality in which one has been trained. But my observation

is that the grounding in principle is what is sorely lacking, and that the

biomedical influence by and large seems to overwhelm that.

Of course, growth change and innovation should occur, but not at the expense

of the very principles we espouse and practice. .

On Apr 29, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> You guys are on to something now!

>

> This has been my biggest complaint with the " purists. " These folks want to

practice the medicine, unchanged, as it existed 4 or 500 or more years ago.

That is so sad, and really cheats the patient. This is also unethical. Do you

not think Hau Tuo or any of the other ancient masters would not have used the

modern diagnostics and technology if they had had access to them? Of course

they would. That's how the Wen Bing came about. Diseases changed so they

adapted with the changes and they found medicine to adapt to those changes.

Look at modern e'stim. I'll bet the " purists " that use this group also use

e'stim. But of course, that's ok for some reason. Look at metal needles, would

you go back to using stone or bone? Of course not.

>

> Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally "

unethical.

>

> Let's say that a patient comes to your office with an incurable disease, say

sarcoidosis. They have horrible lesions covering their body, their hair is

falling out in clumps because the lesions are in their scalp (these lesions

resemble raw hamburger), and they are on oxygen because these lesions have

attacked their lungs. Now as an AOM practitioner you use herbal medicine,

acupuncture, and any other traditional tools with no avail. The patient is

getting worse and will probably die within the year.

>

> Now you (the practitioner) retired from the US military and you worked in

Research and development for a few years. You remember something about a

Russian scientist that came out with a medical device based on oriental medical

theory that is being used successfully in their space program. Problem is, the

technology was top secret and the US government has never been able to steel

this tecnology. Now you hear that it is no longer top secret and can be bought

on the open market since their lead scientist was able to obtain a patent.

>

> Now you buy this device at great expense. And you use it on this dying

patient that has sarcoidosis. In two weeks that patient notices her hair

growing back and the lesions going away (without a scar!). After 6 weeks that

patient no longer needs oxygen. Three years later and the patient still has not

had a relapse and two others have been treated with the same response.

>

> Now the " purists " don't want me to use this equipment, and the MD's sure wont

use it. So I stop using it and patients begin to die. Am I not unethical for

not using something I know would work because I want to keep my medicine " pure? "

>

> I tell you the truth, if that patient dies and I have the knowledge to save

them and don't. I'm as guilty as if I had put a gun to their head and pulled

the trigger.

>

> Our medicine is medicine and it is a living thing that changes and adapts to

whatever works and whatever changes in disease. If we stay " pure " , we are

killing this living medicine.

>

> Just my two cents,

>

> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> magisterium_magnum

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:39:24 -0700

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do

> what was done thousands of years before.

> (I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question the

> nature of the 6 year Masters degree.)

>

> -

> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

>>

>> So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords?

>> Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> marthacooleylac

>> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

>> Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

>>

>> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>>

>> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

>> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>>

>> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

>> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

>> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying

>> more.

>>

>> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine,

>> with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great

>> challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

>> reverberations into patients.

>>

>> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

>> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

>> by touch, by meditation.

>>

>> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

>> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing

>> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should

>> have nothing to do with EMF's...

>>

>> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

>> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>>

>> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

>>

>> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>>

>> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

>>

>> www.electroherbalis m.com

April 29, 2010

You can adjust electro-acupuncture machines. But you can't tune in (or

program) specific frequencies like you can on a Rife machine or an

Electroherbalism machine.

I'm not saying his wife was " the " real physicist. I have no idea about

that. I'm saying that she was " a " real physicist.

Einstein was a patent clerk who failed math. Everyone says, " He didn't do

physics as well as anyone, but he just throught more creatively. " LOL.

Please.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/index.htm

Like I stated before. Einstein had alot of good things to say. But his

theories weren't one of them. Nor were they orginal ideas.

-

" " <johnkokko

Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:44 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Mercurius,

>

> ...they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines.

> There are also voll and vega test units.

> and acu-pointers.

>

> I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment.

> Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist?

> and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared?

> What't the name of the documentary you stated ?

>

> K

>

> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> magisterium_magnum wrote:

April 29, 2010

Exactly Zev!

Why do you think my results are so superb when I am using the same technology as

the allopaths? I am utilizing western high technology, but combining it with

AOM theory. That, sir, is true integration!

Don

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:24:14 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Don,

Chinese medicine is not about technology, needles, moxas or " Chinese herbs " . It

is about a medical philosophy, specific principles that have been in force for

2000 years. If one is grounded in the principles of the medicine, one can use

any therapeutic modality in which one has been trained. But my observation is

that the grounding in principle is what is sorely lacking, and that the

biomedical influence by and large seems to overwhelm that.

Of course, growth change and innovation should occur, but not at the expense of

the very principles we espouse and practice. .

On Apr 29, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> You guys are on to something now!

>

> This has been my biggest complaint with the " purists. " These folks want to

practice the medicine, unchanged, as it existed 4 or 500 or more years ago. That

is so sad, and really cheats the patient. This is also unethical. Do you not

think Hau Tuo or any of the other ancient masters would not have used the modern

diagnostics and technology if they had had access to them? Of course they would.

That's how the Wen Bing came about. Diseases changed so they adapted with the

changes and they found medicine to adapt to those changes. Look at modern

e'stim. I'll bet the " purists " that use this group also use e'stim. But of

course, that's ok for some reason. Look at metal needles, would you go back to

using stone or bone? Of course not.

>

> Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally "

unethical.

>

> Let's say that a patient comes to your office with an incurable disease, say

sarcoidosis. They have horrible lesions covering their body, their hair is

falling out in clumps because the lesions are in their scalp (these lesions

resemble raw hamburger), and they are on oxygen because these lesions have

attacked their lungs. Now as an AOM practitioner you use herbal medicine,

acupuncture, and any other traditional tools with no avail. The patient is

getting worse and will probably die within the year.

>

> Now you (the practitioner) retired from the US military and you worked in

Research and development for a few years. You remember something about a Russian

scientist that came out with a medical device based on oriental medical theory

that is being used successfully in their space program. Problem is, the

technology was top secret and the US government has never been able to steel

this tecnology. Now you hear that it is no longer top secret and can be bought

on the open market since their lead scientist was able to obtain a patent.

>

> Now you buy this device at great expense. And you use it on this dying patient

that has sarcoidosis. In two weeks that patient notices her hair growing back

and the lesions going away (without a scar!). After 6 weeks that patient no

longer needs oxygen. Three years later and the patient still has not had a

relapse and two others have been treated with the same response.

>

> Now the " purists " don't want me to use this equipment, and the MD's sure wont

use it. So I stop using it and patients begin to die. Am I not unethical for not

using something I know would work because I want to keep my medicine " pure? "

>

> I tell you the truth, if that patient dies and I have the knowledge to save

them and don't. I'm as guilty as if I had put a gun to their head and pulled the

trigger.

>

> Our medicine is medicine and it is a living thing that changes and adapts to

whatever works and whatever changes in disease. If we stay " pure " , we are

killing this living medicine.

>

> Just my two cents,

>

> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> magisterium_magnum

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:39:24 -0700

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do

> what was done thousands of years before.

> (I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question the

> nature of the 6 year Masters degree.)

>

> -

> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

>>

>> So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords?

>> Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> marthacooleylac

>> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

>> Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

>>

>> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>>

>> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

>> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>>

>> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

>> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

>> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying

>> more.

>>

>> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine,

>> with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great

>> challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

>> reverberations into patients.

>>

>> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

>> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

>> by touch, by meditation.

>>

>> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

>> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing

>> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should

>> have nothing to do with EMF's...

>>

>> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

>> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

>>

>> ________________________________

>>

>> Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>>

>> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

>>

>> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>>

>> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

>>

>> www.electroherbalis m.com

April 29, 2010

This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do

what was done thousands of years before.

(I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question the

nature of the 6 year Masters degree.)

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords?

> Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> marthacooleylac

> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

>

> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>

> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>

> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying

> more.

>

> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine,

> with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great

> challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

> reverberations into patients.

>

> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> by touch, by meditation.

>

> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing

> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should

> have nothing to do with EMF's...

>

> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

>

> ________________________________

>

> Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

>

> Chinese Medicine

>

> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

>

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

>

> www.electroherbalis m.com

April 29, 2010

Actually, there is a lot of information regarding the influence that Einstein's

wife had on him. I always wonder at people's reactions when supposedly

self-evident information is put into question. For god's sake people, you do

!!

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 29 April, 2010 14:42:13

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Isn't physics about marrying mathematics with the physical world?

How is Einstein not a " real physicist " , but his wife was?

Is this a joke?

April 29, 2010

Mercurius,

I fail to seel where any of Joe's statements are 'illogical'... perhaps my

mercurial skills are lacking?

Some of us feel offended by the use of diverse non- traditional or classical

alternative therapies under the umbrella name 'Chinese medicine', because it

gives our patients and the general public an erroneous vision of what Chinese

medicine is.

If you practice electroherbalism please hang a placard saying so! And if it

helps you be proud of it and don't confine it under the mask of a 'TCM'

practice, please!

It seems you are brand new at this study... do you know what a diamond in the

rough you have stumbled upon?

Have you started reading and studying the Classics?

These canons define Chinese medicine.... when you do, you will, it is my hope,

be excited at the immense depth of classical theory, and its vast applications.

As a philosopher you should be seduced; as a scientist delighted by logic; and

as a clinician simply happy for what it provides your patients with. And it is

also my hope that you will understand that, while Chinese medicine is by no

means the only medicine in the world, it is its own entity.

This identity is, as evidenced in all these exchanges, threatened by is rapid

sprawl into the West.

For those of us who devote the majority of their thoughts to Chinese medicine,

such infractions on our discipline are insulting.

________________________________

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

Chinese Medicine

Thu, April 29, 2010 2:20:28 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

This is a good example of someone who I think is having what Reich would

call an " emotional plague " reaction against me. Note the hysterical tone

and the illogical " reasoning. "

For the record, I was supposed to go to law school. Came here instead,

after an industrial accident. My dad had a recycling company. So, I didn't

come here to get rich. I came here to put myself together again.

Electroherbalism is quite effective with that, too. Thanks for asking.

-

" Joe Messey " <joe.messey

Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:14 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Martha said:

> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>

> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> our

> patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>

> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more.

>

> Joe sez:

> So very, very well put - I wish I had said that

>

> I particularly like:

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more...

> It seems that there are quite a few that think that Chinese medicine is so

> simple and shallow that they can learn it all in a couple of short years

> of

> school.

>

> Mercurius said:

> They don't let us use anything but TCM in the student clinic.

>

> Joe sez:

> ...because you are supposed to be learning to treat people with Chinese

> medicine?!?!

> It makes me wonder....

> why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this

> website?

> do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain?

>

> Martha said

> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> by

> touch, by meditation.

>

> so beautiful

> so well crafted

>

April 29, 2010

At the same time, Don, we should be careful not to buy into the linear

progression belief of our culture, i.e. that things get better and better, and

that we shouldn't go back 3-500 years to find teachings and treatment

methodologies. If you want to see incredible sophistication in acumoxa

treatment, check out " The Great Compendium of Acupuncture and Moxabustion/Zhen

Jiu Da Cheng " Volume V, by Yang Ji-zhou (Ming dynasty), translated by Lorraine

Wilcox, and published by the Database. It's way beyond a lot

of what we see out there. . . and this material is only beginning to become

available in English. So for us it is 'new'.

On Apr 29, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> Exactly Zev!

>

> Why do you think my results are so superb when I am using the same technology

as the allopaths? I am utilizing western high technology, but combining it with

AOM theory. That, sir, is true integration!

>

> Don

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 29, 2010

I don't use them. I use my hands and my heart/mind. Qi follows intention, and I

find that meditation much, much harder to do when there is a machine between me

and my patient.

I have seen estim be useful to re-build atrophied muscle... some people swear by

the ion-pumping cords... But they are not Chinese medicine!!!

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thu, April 29, 2010 7:37:54 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords? Are

these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

marthacooleylac

Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

Re: TCM - Herbal Pharmacology

Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort our

patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can become

an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying more.

The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine, with

a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great challenge of the

doctor is to see and interpret these and their reverberations into patients.

To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place where

we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, by touch, by

meditation.

And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want nothing to

do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing steam that rains

onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should have nothing to do

with EMF's...

If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are not

advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

________________________________

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

Chinese Medicine

Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

www.electroherbalis m.com

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

<traditional_ chinese_medicine >

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:08 PM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Nice to hear success with your treatment plan. I am also interested in

> Scenar and wonder about courses, machine, etc. This is what I think many

> of us are hoping to glean some aspect(s) of treatment plan that work well

> together and how to pull it off. I am making a huge effort to expand my

> knowledge base.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:40 -0500

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

April 29, 2010

When aÂ man is complimenting me, will you please stay out of it ?

Â

________________________________

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

Chinese Medicine

Thu, April 29, 2010 2:20:28 PM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Â

This is a good example of someone who I think is having what Reich would

call an " emotional plague " reaction against me. Note the hysterical tone

and the illogical " reasoning. "

For the record, I was supposed to go to law school. Came here instead,

after an industrial accident. My dad had a recycling company. So, I didn't

come here to get rich. I came here to put myself together again.

Electroherbalism is quite effective with that, too. Thanks for asking.

-

" Joe Messey " <joe.messey (AT) gmail (DOT) com>

<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:14 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Martha said:

> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!! !

>

> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> our

> patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>

> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more.

>

> Joe sez:

> So very, very well put - I wish I had said that

>

> I particularly like:

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more...

> It seems that there are quite a few that think that Chinese medicine is so

> simple and shallow that they can learn it all in a couple of short years

> of

> school.

>

> Mercurius said:

> They don't let us use anything but TCM in the student clinic.

>

> Joe sez:

> ...because you are supposed to be learning to treat people with Chinese

> medicine?!?!

> It makes me wonder....

> why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this

> website?

> do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain?

>

> Martha said

> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> by

> touch, by meditation.

>

> so beautiful

> so well crafted

>

April 29, 2010

I own that volume. I cannot say enough; what I do in AOM. I use AOM

theory/philosophy in all my methodologies. It is TCM. I just happen to use

moder tools. That's all they are. Just like a needle is a tool, moxa, cups,

herbs. You know that there is a thing called western herboloy that uses some of

the herbs we use. Why isn't that called TCM/AOM. Because they do not use TCM

theory. Well, I do.

Zev, do you remember a time when I was still in the Master's program and I had

just gotten my HHP and was using electroacupuncture with little probes that I

would tape to the skin. I remember another student had commented about that and

you poo-pooed what I was doing and said, and I quote, " that stuff doesn't work.

He's not using a needle. " I remember that to this day, and boy were you wrong

in a big way.

It does work. I've built a million dollar practice on it and my patients get

well. I've had blind people that now have driver's licenses, I have a

collection of 22 walkers, 2,000 last year alone no longer have pain or

neuropathy anywhere. What I am doing is as much Chinese medicine as what you

are doing and people come to see me from Russian, Canada, Oklahoma, New Mexico,

and many of my patients from California still come here to Louisiana for an

occasional tune-up. My results are consistant and work on everyone, that's why

I can guarantee results or the patient doesn't pay a dime. They do pay. How

many other practitioners, east or west, make that guarantee? I don't know any.

And while it is illegal to guarantee anything in medicine, you can say, " you get

50% relief or better on your first visit, or you don't pay a dime. I stand by

my work. " That is my motto and that's what I stand behind.

I practice AOM with modern tools. I've notice you yourself use e'stim. That's

not classical at all.

Sincerely,

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:52:12 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

At the same time, Don, we should be careful not to buy into the linear

progression belief of our culture, i.e. that things get better and better, and

that we shouldn't go back 3-500 years to find teachings and treatment

methodologies. If you want to see incredible sophistication in acumoxa

treatment, check out " The Great Compendium of Acupuncture and Moxabustion/Zhen

Jiu Da Cheng " Volume V, by Yang Ji-zhou (Ming dynasty), translated by Lorraine

Wilcox, and published by the Database. It's way beyond a lot of

what we see out there. . . and this material is only beginning to become

available in English. So for us it is 'new'.

On Apr 29, 2010, at 1:29 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> Exactly Zev!

>

> Why do you think my results are so superb when I am using the same technology

as the allopaths? I am utilizing western high technology, but combining it with

AOM theory. That, sir, is true integration!

>

> Don

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 29, 2010

This is a good example of someone who I think is having what Reich would

call an " emotional plague " reaction against me. Note the hysterical tone

and the illogical " reasoning. "

For the record, I was supposed to go to law school. Came here instead,

after an industrial accident. My dad had a recycling company. So, I didn't

come here to get rich. I came here to put myself together again.

Electroherbalism is quite effective with that, too. Thanks for asking.

-

" Joe Messey " <joe.messey

Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:14 AM

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> Martha said:

> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

>

> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> our

> patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

>

> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities

> undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more.

>

> Joe sez:

> So very, very well put - I wish I had said that

>

> I particularly like:

> become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying

> more...

> It seems that there are quite a few that think that Chinese medicine is so

> simple and shallow that they can learn it all in a couple of short years

> of

> school.

>

> Mercurius said:

> They don't let us use anything but TCM in the student clinic.

>

> Joe sez:

> ...because you are supposed to be learning to treat people with Chinese

> medicine?!?!

> It makes me wonder....

> why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this

> website?

> do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain?

>

> Martha said

> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> by

> touch, by meditation.

>

> so beautiful

> so well crafted

>

April 29, 2010

Don,

While I don't remember saying anything about electrodes on acupoints (did you

hear that directly from me, or through the student 'telephone'), I don't use

e-stim. . . haven't for over twenty years.

It really depends on what you treat and what you are looking for, I guess. . .

Always glad to hear of your successes, that's what counts. .

On Apr 29, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

> I practice AOM with modern tools. I've notice you yourself use e'stim.

That's not classical at all.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 29, 2010

Hi Zev,

I was standing behind you. That statement hurt at the time, but I built a

clientele using that " worthless " method. What I treat is everything. Female

problems, respiratory problems, prostate problems, etc, our medicine is a

complete medicine. I specialize and advertize for pain and neuropathy because

insurance will ALWAYS reimburse me for pain and neuropathy. That is another

secret of mine. Insurance reimbursement. Any patient with insurance (except

medicare) is my prime candidate and they ALL pay me. That's something I shared

with Jack and he felt that what I was doing would be illegal. I even brought my

lawyer with me to meet him because I thought the schools should be teaching

this. He wasn't interested.

Since then I have hired a number of attorneys to check on what I am doing and

I've also cleared this with the medical and chiropractic boards. It's very

legal, although no one else is doing it. Too bad for the profession.

I know that when I supervised at PCOM, I went behind many supervisors and their

students who had treatment failures. Then myself and my group of students would

then treat those patients and the results were immediate and profound. That's

when I knew I was on to something very nice. Some of these supervisors were

from China and were supposed to be the best. I was able to take their failures

and the patients got well.

Are we not supposed to make the patient well? If there is something out there

that can help and you know about it and don't use it, are you not guilty of some

kind of ethics violation?

That's how I would feel if I didn't do what I do.

I practice AOM, but my AOM is on steroids.

Sincerely,

Your Student,

Don Snow

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:24:56 -0700

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Don,

While I don't remember saying anything about electrodes on acupoints (did you

hear that directly from me, or through the student 'telephone'), I don't use

e-stim. . . haven't for over twenty years.

It really depends on what you treat and what you are looking for, I guess. . .

Always glad to hear of your successes, that's what counts. .

On Apr 29, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

> I practice AOM with modern tools. I've notice you yourself use e'stim. That's

not classical at all.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 29, 2010

Mercurius

Instead of trying to analyze my state of mind (which you are proving to be

inept at also)

why not just answer very sincere and direct questions?

why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this website?

do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain?

Joe

April 30, 2010

Don said

many things including

Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally "

unethical.

Joe sez:

How is using a system that has survived for 1000s of years and helped untold

billions unethical? It's more ethical to play with some Russian energetics

machine than to use the training that you received and are licensed for?

Interesting and self-serving

Suwen 78

" *When one abandons his medical learning by half way and treats the disease

in some **other way, exaggerates his treating as the truth, or plagiarizes

the achievement of the pre**decessors as his own skill by changing its name,

applies the needle indiscriminately, and as a **result, it will bring

troubles to himself.*

>

> Let's say that a patient comes to your office with an incurable disease,

> say sarcoidosis. They have horrible lesions covering their body, their hair

> is falling out in clumps because the lesions are in their scalp (these

> lesions resemble raw hamburger), and they are on oxygen because these

> lesions have attacked their lungs. Now as an AOM practitioner you use

> herbal medicine, puncture, and any other traditional tools with no avail.

> The patient is getting worse and will probably die within the year.

>

> Now you (the practitioner) retired from the US military and you worked in

> Research and development for a few years. You remember something about a

> Russian scientist that came out with a medical device based on oriental

> medical theory that is being used successfully in their space program.

> Problem is, the technology was top secret and the US government has never

> been able to steel this tecnology. Now you hear that it is no longer top

> secret and can be bought on the open market since their lead scientist was

> able to obtain a patent.

>

> Now you buy this device at great expense. And you use it on this dying

> patient that has sarcoidosis. In two weeks that patient notices her hair

> growing back and the lesions going away (without a scar!). After 6 weeks

> that patient no longer needs oxygen. Three years later and the patient

> still has not had a relapse and two others have been treated with the same

> response.

>

> Now the " purists " don't want me to use this equipment, and the MD's sure

> wont use it. So I stop using it and patients begin to die. Am I not

> unethical for not using something I know would work because I want to keep

> my medicine " pure? "

>

> I tell you the truth, if that patient dies and I have the knowledge to save

> them and don't. I'm as guilty as if I had put a gun to their head and

> pulled the trigger.

>

> Our medicine is medicine and it is a living thing that changes and adapts

> to whatever works and whatever changes in disease. If we stay " pure " , we

> are killing this living medicine.

>

> Just my two cents,

>

> Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> magisterium_magnum

> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:39:24 -0700

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do

> what was done thousands of years before.

> (I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question

> the

> nature of the 6 year Masters degree.)

>

> -

> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM

> RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> >

> > So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords?

> > Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts?

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > marthacooleylac

> > Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?!

> >

> > I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!!

> >

> > Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort

> > our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is.

> >

> > Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these

> modalities

> > undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can

> > become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and

> studying

> > more.

> >

> > The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological

> medicine,

> > with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great

> > challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their

> > reverberations into patients.

> >

> > To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place

> > where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula,

> > by touch, by meditation.

> >

> > And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want

> > nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing

> > steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they

> should

> > have nothing to do with EMF's...

> >

> > If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are

> > not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?!

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> > Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM

> >

> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology

> >

> > I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism.

> >

> > www.electroherbalis m.com

April 30, 2010

Didn't Einstein try one of Reich's experiments and determined

that Reich's great " discovery " was nothing other than normal

temperature gradients in any room?

I believe that Einstein advised Reich to learn to develop a more

scientific and skeptical attitude to which Reich wrote a 25 page

response and had it published (most say that this was against

Einstein's wishes and without his permission)

Perhaps this is why " Mercurius " attempts to de-fame A. Einstein

Stephen Woodley LAc

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

April 30, 2010

Stephen,

good call and I'm wondering what Einstein has to do with Chinese medicine?

How did we get here? Orgone / Aether theory... Qi... Reich... Einstein?

K

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 4:20 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> Didn't Einstein try one of Reich's experiments and determined

> that Reich's great " discovery " was nothing other than normal

> temperature gradients in any room?

> I believe that Einstein advised Reich to learn to develop a more

> scientific and skeptical attitude to which Reich wrote a 25 page

> response and had it published (most say that this was against

> Einstein's wishes and without his permission)

>

> Perhaps this is why " Mercurius " attempts to de-fame A. Einstein

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail...

>

April 30, 2010

Hi Joe and all:

I am surprised at this discussion. While everyone has really good points, I

can't help but feel that there has been some kind of major misunderstanding.

I will have to stand strictly against you, Joe, on this point, although I find

your quotation from the Su Wen fascinating.

I find Donald's p.o.v. to be compelling and one potential way of moving our

medicine forward. Most importantly he stresses how he uses AOM (Asian and

Oriental Medicine) as his foundation. He even explained how his favourite

machine is a modern invention based on AOM theory! I can't see a way to

criticise him. I think he is right on the money to say that it would be

unethical for him to limit himself from developing use of this machine, or

further developing his protocols. I do not find that he is " playing " with

anything.

On the side of the " purists " it must be said that a) to resist the temptations

of machines and their " labour-saving " effect takes a lot of effort and

stubborn-ness, and b) to make the point that the foundation of our medicine must

always be us, as a human individual unit connected to the Tao, is entirely

correct.

To wit: the transfer all of our skill onto a machine is dangerous, because we

will end up useless *without* it, as I have heard many MDs comment ( " Without my

equipment, I can do nothing " ). The source of our understanding must come from

our connection (via internal cultivation) to the Tao, but our reach, or the

manifestation of that understanding, can take any form, including a piece of

modern technology.

If we are to survive, we must develop in this fashion.

Just my opinion,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

Joe Messey <joe.messey

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 29 April, 2010 19:07:10

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Don said

many things including

Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally "

unethical.

Joe sez:

How is using a system that has survived for 1000s of years and helped untold

billions unethical? It's more ethical to play with some Russian energetics

machine than to use the training that you received and are licensed for?

Interesting and self-serving

Suwen 78

" *When one abandons his medical learning by half way and treats the disease

in some **other way, exaggerates his treating as the truth, or plagiarizes

the achievement of the pre**decessors as his own skill by changing its name,

applies the needle indiscriminately, and as a **result, it will bring

troubles to himself.*

April 30, 2010

That's great guys, without much research you just managed to re-enforce

the status quo, in the process proving the materialist right and the vitalist

wrong (we are vitalists, in case we've forgotten).

Again, we practice , a pile of superstitions if ever there was

one. I mean, come on, the invisible energy Qi? Yi is supposed to affect my

patient? You mean if I just concentrate rilly rilly hard on my needle it makes a

difference? Thank god there are physios who understand you just have to throw

the damn thing in, and nothing more!

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 29 April, 2010 19:53:37

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Stephen,

good call and I'm wondering what Einstein has to do with Chinese medicine?

How did we get here? Orgone / Aether theory... Qi... Reich... Einstein?

K

April 30, 2010

Hugo said:

> That's great guys, without much research you just managed to re-enforce

> the status quo, in the process proving the materialist right and the

> vitalist wrong (we are vitalists, in case we've forgotten).

>

> Again, we practice , a pile of superstitions if ever there

> was one. I mean, come on, the invisible energy Qi? Yi is supposed to affect

> my patient? You mean if I just concentrate rilly rilly hard on my needle it

> makes a difference? Thank god there are physios who understand you just have

> to throw the damn thing in, and nothing more!

>

Joe sez:

that is very funny!!

you use a very materialistic point of view to accuse others of being

materialistic!!!

If you are being serious, I feel sad that you haven't seen or experienced

acupuncture from someone who has greatly cultivated their Qi

Do you also pooh-pooh medical qi gong?

Do you think that machines are superior to people?

Do we need them to get superior results, or can we develop skills?

The skills that Don and Mercurious are espousing are machine operating

skills that turn practitioners away from being healers and toward

technicians.

I stand by the quote even more!

April 30, 2010

Kokko

good point!

Maybe we could go back to the thread you tried to start and discuss the

differences between Classical Chinese medicine and " traditional " CM

I think that the transitional time would be around the Jin Yuan dynasty

- didn't you want to include Wen Bing as classical? Although I find Wen

Bing fascinating and with some brilliant formula architecture, I

personally don't consider it to be " classical "

also - what do you think are the most important steps to training in

Classical CM?

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

April 30, 2010

I think in some ways, Chinese students have it easier, just because they can

memorize everything in their native language. That does help.

-

" Gabriel Fuentes " <fuentes120

Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:29 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU,

Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate

program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year

combined western and program. And yes you only get a

bachelors degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMUâ€™s

curriculum you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say

classics I mean the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are

grueling, and the exams are insane. Iâ€™m sure if the same requirements were

implemented in US schools, Students would revolt. My education was not

anything compared to what these students go thru.

Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the

different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic

and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young

kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete

books, and I hope I donâ€™t get this â€œpatheticâ€ typical western reply that

Chinese students memorize but they canâ€™t articulate or employ what they

memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are

dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock

unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to

say not many westerners do.

My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes

--- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM

John,

You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics.

So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews

posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as

well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Jason,

I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff

notes " addition of TCM

and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in

China,

that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not

obligatory there.

So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or

Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have

a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in

between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as

well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing,

SHZBL or Wen bing.

One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes "

version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the

DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered

the " cliff notes " version.

Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin

gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This

is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like

a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work.

Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs?

I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the

" cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools).

K

2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

>

> K,

>

> Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in

> TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in

> advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g.

> SHL

> / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this?

>

> Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes?

> Obviously

> some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should

> not

> compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education

> in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the

> publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic

> texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian,

> fu

> xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English

> versions of these texts.

>

> Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is

> IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't

> understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English

> perception?

>

> -Jason

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>]

> On Behalf Of john

> kokko

> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM

> <Traditional_

> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> Jason,

> Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes "

> version,

> without the poetry but still informed by the classics.

>

> This points to a larger question... what's the difference between

> classical

> medicine

> and traditional medicine?

>

> K

>

--

""

www.turtleclinic. com

www.tcmreview. com

April 30, 2010

Stephan,

You are technically correct, warm disease texts are considered pre-modern,

not classical.

-Jason

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of stephen

woodley

Thursday, April 29, 2010 6:18 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

Kokko

good point!

Maybe we could go back to the thread you tried to start and discuss the

differences between Classical Chinese medicine and " traditional " CM

I think that the transitional time would be around the Jin Yuan dynasty

- didn't you want to include Wen Bing as classical? Although I find Wen

Bing fascinating and with some brilliant formula architecture, I

personally don't consider it to be " classical "

also - what do you think are the most important steps to training in

Classical CM?

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

April 30, 2010

Yep, and it is an invalid theory. As I have stated before.

-

" "

Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:31 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology

>I have to say you have some very interesting ideas. Answer me this, who

>came

> up with the theory of relativity? Oh wait, don't they also call it " the

> Einstein theory of relativity " ...

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

>

> -Jason

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> Mercurius

> Trismegistus

> Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:28 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> You can adjust electro-acupuncture machines. But you can't tune in (or

> program) specific frequencies like you can on a Rife machine or an

> Electroherbalism machine.

> I'm not saying his wife was " the " real physicist. I have no idea about

> that. I'm saying that she was " a " real physicist.

> Einstein was a patent clerk who failed math. Everyone says, " He didn't do

> physics as well as anyone, but he just throught more creatively. " LOL.

> Please.

> http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

> http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/index.htm

> Like I stated before. Einstein had alot of good things to say. But his

> theories weren't one of them. Nor were they orginal ideas.

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