herbs for bone cancer

April 15, 2010

There is a paper from Europe about the antioxidants and how this would interfere

with chemotherapy even herbal chemotherapy....all of this could be explained in

depth by Dr. Wen whom found it to be very interfering. Even with chemotherapy

they want a 72 hour window of no anti oxidants during administration and 24

hours on each side.

Personally, I am not against massage accupressure or acupuncture with cancer,

the chapter I did lists combined therapies that work together for the patient

in treating cancer. I have a colleague whom uses only Tui Na ah Mo in her

veteriarny practice and has the client/owner do the same for the patient at home

and this alone has been effective in many cases, I am not listing bone cancers

in this, soft tissue cancers.

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:00:22 -0700

> Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>

> Patricia,

> Thanks for the info.

> So, this is the first time I've heard that antioxidants should not be

> supplemented during the herbal treatment....

> Please elaborate on this.

>

> Do you take the view that massage should not be given during cancer

> treatment because of increased angiogenesis to the tumor site? What about

> distal massage?

> What does the research show on that subject?

>

> What are your views on medical qi gong (practitioner given) ?

>

> K

>

> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

> coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

> >

> > Tumors have very inefficient use of energy to grow and so do best with

> > sugar or carbs. Diets for cancer will not provide the cancer with easy

> > energy. Dr. Wen at White Crane Herbals his practice is in Hampton, NY, he

> > should be consulted for the dog with cancer. Dr. Wen has large cancer

> > formulas of Chinese Herbs. Also most of our tumors are diagnosed off of

> > their xray presentations, not with biopsies. Best not to touch or aggravate

> > the tumor as that is all it needs to really take off aggressively! Also Dr.

> > Wen will be very amadanat about no antioxidants while on herbal

> > chemotherapy!

> >

> > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

> >

> > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>

> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:54:45 +0000

> > > RE: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> >

> > >

> > > Aren't tumors in need of protein to grow and make tissue? Reminds me of

> > macrobiotic successes with cancer, low protein (vegetable sources only, no

> > animal).

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > >

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > RCVVMD <RCVVMD%40aol.com>

> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:03 -0400

> > > Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > >

> > > Hi there....

> > >

> > > Re. osteosarcoma in the dog: very unusual to be bilateral; have they

> > biopsied these lesions? OSA is known for very quick micrometastasis and

> > usually lung mets first. Usually by the time the bone tumors are evident to

> > us, they've already metastasized, whether or not you see it at the moment.

> > CT's may/will show more definition than radiographs of course, and

> > ultrasound at least of abdomen for other mets abnormalities. Also these are

> > phenomenally painful neoplasias. For general info, see

> > www.veterinarypartners.com. I would be thinking of hoxsey-like formula

> > and/or hoxsey-boneset formula, and/or Jing Tang Herbal's Bone Stasis formula

> > (tcvmherbal.com). Also consider the dog's tcm pattern diagnosis, of

> > course, in approaching a formula. AP will be helpful with pain and mobility

> > support. Some use IV Vitamin C. Antioxidants are helpful, and for quality of

> > life if nothing else, change diet to a whole foods based, home cooked

> > regimen. Lowwww carb/ no grain if possible- feed the patient, starve the

> > tumor.!

> > >

> > > Good l.uck...

> > >

> > > Robin Valentine

> > >

April 15, 2010

I spoke with a MD cancer expert today who says that the antioxidants can

compete with the same receptors as the herbs during treatment, so you want

the patient to have enough antioxidants, but not too much. But, don't

starve the patient.. throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to

speak. She doesn't think that massage is problematic during cancer, as

this research hasn't been validated either way. What do others think?

K

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Patricia Jordan <

coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

> There is a paper from Europe about the antioxidants and how this would

> interfere with chemotherapy even herbal chemotherapy....all of this could be

> explained in depth by Dr. Wen whom found it to be very interfering. Even

> with chemotherapy they want a 72 hour window of no anti oxidants during

> administration and 24 hours on each side.

>

> Personally, I am not against massage accupressure or acupuncture with

> cancer, the chapter I did lists combined therapies that work together for

> the patient in treating cancer. I have a colleague whom uses only Tui Na ah

> Mo in her veteriarny practice and has the client/owner do the same for the

> patient at home and this alone has been effective in many cases, I am not

> listing bone cancers in this, soft tissue cancers.

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:00:22 -0700

> > Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>

> >

> > Patricia,

> > Thanks for the info.

> > So, this is the first time I've heard that antioxidants should not be

> > supplemented during the herbal treatment....

> > Please elaborate on this.

> >

> > Do you take the view that massage should not be given during cancer

> > treatment because of increased angiogenesis to the tumor site? What about

> > distal massage?

> > What does the research show on that subject?

> >

> > What are your views on medical qi gong (practitioner given) ?

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

> > coastalcatclinic <coastalcatclinic%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Tumors have very inefficient use of energy to grow and so do best with

> > > sugar or carbs. Diets for cancer will not provide the cancer with easy

> > > energy. Dr. Wen at White Crane Herbals his practice is in Hampton, NY,

> he

> > > should be consulted for the dog with cancer. Dr. Wen has large cancer

> > > formulas of Chinese Herbs. Also most of our tumors are diagnosed off of

> > > their xray presentations, not with biopsies. Best not to touch or

> aggravate

> > > the tumor as that is all it needs to really take off aggressively! Also

> Dr.

> > > Wen will be very amadanat about no antioxidants while on herbal

> > > chemotherapy!

> > >

> > > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

> > >

> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

> > > > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com><naturaldoc1%

> 40hotmail.com>

>

> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:54:45 +0000

> > > > RE: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Aren't tumors in need of protein to grow and make tissue? Reminds me

> of

> > > macrobiotic successes with cancer, low protein (vegetable sources only,

> no

> > > animal).

> > > >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > RCVVMD <RCVVMD%40aol.com> <RCVVMD%40aol.com>

>

> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:03 -0400

> > > > Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > > >

> > > > Hi there....

> > > >

> > > > Re. osteosarcoma in the dog: very unusual to be bilateral; have they

> > > biopsied these lesions? OSA is known for very quick micrometastasis and

> > > usually lung mets first. Usually by the time the bone tumors are

> evident to

> > > us, they've already metastasized, whether or not you see it at the

> moment.

> > > CT's may/will show more definition than radiographs of course, and

> > > ultrasound at least of abdomen for other mets abnormalities. Also these

> are

> > > phenomenally painful neoplasias. For general info, see

> > > www.veterinarypartners.com. I would be thinking of hoxsey-like formula

> > > and/or hoxsey-boneset formula, and/or Jing Tang Herbal's Bone Stasis

> formula

> > > (tcvmherbal.com). Also consider the dog's tcm pattern diagnosis, of

> > > course, in approaching a formula. AP will be helpful with pain and

> mobility

> > > support. Some use IV Vitamin C. Antioxidants are helpful, and for

> quality of

> > > life if nothing else, change diet to a whole foods based, home cooked

> > > regimen. Lowwww carb/ no grain if possible- feed the patient, starve

> the

> > > tumor.!

> > > >

> > > > Good l.uck...

> > > >

> > > > Robin Valentine

> > > >

April 15, 2010

What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after chemo

only.

Thoughts?

K

>

>>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

April 15, 2010

It's a controversial matter, some says to not use , orhers use it. I

have some papers talking about it. I will put them in the list files.

In my pratice I use them with good results.

Regards

Eduardo Lobo

2010/4/15 <johnkokko:

> I spoke with a MD cancer expert today who says that the antioxidants can

> compete with the same receptors as the herbs during treatment, so you want

> the patient to have enough antioxidants, but not too much. But, don't

> starve the patient.. throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to

> speak. She doesn't think that massage is problematic during cancer, as

> this research hasn't been validated either way. What do others think?

>

> K

>

> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Patricia Jordan <

> coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

>>

>> There is a paper from Europe about the antioxidants and how this would

>> interfere with chemotherapy even herbal chemotherapy....all of this could be

>> explained in depth by Dr. Wen whom found it to be very interfering. Even

>> with chemotherapy they want a 72 hour window of no anti oxidants during

>> administration and 24 hours on each side.

>>

>> Personally, I am not against massage accupressure or acupuncture with

>> cancer, the chapter I did lists combined therapies that work together for

>> the patient in treating cancer. I have a colleague whom uses only Tui Na ah

>> Mo in her veteriarny practice and has the client/owner do the same for the

>> patient at home and this alone has been effective in many cases, I am not

>> listing bone cancers in this, soft tissue cancers.

>>

>> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>>

>> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

>> > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:00:22 -0700

>> > Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>>

>> >

>> > Patricia,

>> > Thanks for the info.

>> > So, this is the first time I've heard that antioxidants should not be

>> > supplemented during the herbal treatment....

>> > Please elaborate on this.

>> >

>> > Do you take the view that massage should not be given during cancer

>> > treatment because of increased angiogenesis to the tumor site? What about

>> > distal massage?

>> > What does the research show on that subject?

>> >

>> > What are your views on medical qi gong (practitioner given) ?

>> >

>> > K

>> >

>> > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

>> > coastalcatclinic <coastalcatclinic%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

>> >

>> > >

>> > > Tumors have very inefficient use of energy to grow and so do best with

>> > > sugar or carbs. Diets for cancer will not provide the cancer with easy

>> > > energy. Dr. Wen at White Crane Herbals his practice is in Hampton, NY,

>> he

>> > > should be consulted for the dog with cancer. Dr. Wen has large cancer

>> > > formulas of Chinese Herbs. Also most of our tumors are diagnosed off of

>> > > their xray presentations, not with biopsies. Best not to touch or

>> aggravate

>> > > the tumor as that is all it needs to really take off aggressively! Also

>> Dr.

>> > > Wen will be very amadanat about no antioxidants while on herbal

>> > > chemotherapy!

>> > >

>> > > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>> > >

>> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

>> > > > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com><naturaldoc1%

>> 40hotmail.com>

>>

>> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:54:45 +0000

>> > > > RE: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>> > >

>> > > >

>> > > > Aren't tumors in need of protein to grow and make tissue? Reminds me

>> of

>> > > macrobiotic successes with cancer, low protein (vegetable sources only,

>> no

>> > > animal).

>> > > >

>> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>> > > >

>> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>> > > > RCVVMD <RCVVMD%40aol.com> <RCVVMD%40aol.com>

>>

>> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:03 -0400

>> > > > Re:herbs for bone cancer

>> > > >

>> > > > Hi there....

>> > > >

>> > > > Re. osteosarcoma in the dog: very unusual to be bilateral; have they

>> > > biopsied these lesions? OSA is known for very quick micrometastasis and

>> > > usually lung mets first. Usually by the time the bone tumors are

>> evident to

>> > > us, they've already metastasized, whether or not you see it at the

>> moment.

>> > > CT's may/will show more definition than radiographs of course, and

>> > > ultrasound at least of abdomen for other mets abnormalities. Also these

>> are

>> > > phenomenally painful neoplasias. For general info, see

>> > > www.veterinarypartners.com. I would be thinking of hoxsey-like formula

>> > > and/or hoxsey-boneset formula, and/or Jing Tang Herbal's Bone Stasis

>> formula

>> > > (tcvmherbal.com). Also consider the dog's tcm pattern diagnosis, of

>> > > course, in approaching a formula. AP will be helpful with pain and

>> mobility

>> > > support. Some use IV Vitamin C. Antioxidants are helpful, and for

>> quality of

>> > > life if nothing else, change diet to a whole foods based, home cooked

>> > > regimen. Lowwww carb/ no grain if possible- feed the patient, starve

>> the

>> > > tumor.!

>> > > >

>> > > > Good l.uck...

>> > > >

>> > > > Robin Valentine

>> > > >

April 15, 2010

Do the antioxidants interfere with non-herbal chemo treatments?Â Everyone I

have treated on chemo, the doctors flat out say no herbs until it's over.Â I do

acupuncture once a week.Â When it is done - heavy on the herbs to recover.Â

Anne

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

-

" " <johnkokko

" Traditional "

Thursday, April 15, 2010 12:17:36 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

I spoke with a MD cancer expert today who says that the antioxidants can

compete with the same receptors as the herbs during treatment, so you want

the patient to have enough antioxidants, but not too much. Â But, don't

starve the patient.. Â throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to

speak. Â Â She doesn't think that massage is problematic during cancer, as

this research hasn't been validated either way. Â What do others think?

K

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Patricia Jordan <

coastalcatclinic wrote:

>

> There is a paper from Europe about the antioxidants and how this would

> interfere with chemotherapy even herbal chemotherapy....all of this could be

> explained in depth by Dr. Wen whom found it to be very interfering. Even

> with chemotherapy they want a 72 hour window of no anti oxidants during

> administration and 24 hours on each side.

>

> Personally, I am not against massage accupressure or acupuncture with

> cancer, the chapter I did lists combined therapies that work together for

> the patient in treating cancer. I have a colleague whom uses only Tui Na ah

> Mo in her veteriarny practice and has the client/owner do the same for the

> patient at home and this alone has been effective in many cases, I am not

> listing bone cancers in this, soft tissue cancers.

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:00:22 -0700

> > Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>

> >

> > Patricia,

> > Thanks for the info.

> > So, this is the first time I've heard that antioxidants should not be

> > supplemented during the herbal treatment....

> > Please elaborate on this.

> >

> > Do you take the view that massage should not be given during cancer

> > treatment because of increased angiogenesis to the tumor site? What about

> > distal massage?

> > What does the research show on that subject?

> >

> > What are your views on medical qi gong (practitioner given) ?

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

> > coastalcatclinic <coastalcatclinic%40hotmail.com>> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Tumors have very inefficient use of energy to grow and so do best with

> > > sugar or carbs. Diets for cancer will not provide the cancer with easy

> > > energy. Dr. Wen at White Crane Herbals his practice is in Hampton, NY,

> he

> > > should be consulted for the dog with cancer. Dr. Wen has large cancer

> > > formulas of Chinese Herbs. Also most of our tumors are diagnosed off of

> > > their xray presentations, not with biopsies. Best not to touch or

> aggravate

> > > the tumor as that is all it needs to really take off aggressively! Also

> Dr.

> > > Wen will be very amadanat about no antioxidants while on herbal

> > > chemotherapy!

> > >

> > > Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

> > >

> > > > To:

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40>

> > > > naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com><naturaldoc1%

> 40hotmail.com>

>

> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:54:45 +0000

> > > > RE: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Aren't tumors in need of protein to grow and make tissue? Reminds me

> of

> > > macrobiotic successes with cancer, low protein (vegetable sources only,

> no

> > > animal).

> > > >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > RCVVMD <RCVVMD%40aol.com> <RCVVMD%40aol.com>

>

> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:03 -0400

> > > > Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > > >

> > > > Hi there....

> > > >

> > > > Re. osteosarcoma in the dog: very unusual to be bilateral; have they

> > > biopsied these lesions? OSA is known for very quick micrometastasis and

> > > usually lung mets first. Usually by the time the bone tumors are

> evident to

> > > us, they've already metastasized, whether or not you see it at the

> moment.

> > > CT's may/will show more definition than radiographs of course, and

> > > ultrasound at least of abdomen for other mets abnormalities. Also these

> are

> > > phenomenally painful neoplasias. For general info, see

> > > www.veterinarypartners.com. I would be thinking of hoxsey-like formula

> > > and/or hoxsey-boneset formula, and/or Jing Tang Herbal's Bone Stasis

> formula

> > > (tcvmherbal.com). Also consider the dog's tcm pattern diagnosis, of

> > > course, in approaching a formula. AP will be helpful with pain and

> mobility

> > > support. Some use IV Vitamin C. Antioxidants are helpful, and for

> quality of

> > > life if nothing else, change diet to a whole foods based, home cooked

> > > regimen. Lowwww carb/ no grain if possible- feed the patient, starve

> the

> > > tumor.!

> > > >

> > > > Good l.uck...

> > > >

> > > > Robin Valentine

> > > >

April 15, 2010

Hi John; because it comes from a vitalist pradadigm.

--

How come it was made illegal for use in the United States when it isn't

invasive or physically dangerous? At worst, it seems to be placebo and at

best, an effective medical tool.

---

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

_._,___

April 15, 2010

Where do ideas like this come from? They seem totally speculative to me. .. .

On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:36 PM, wrote:

> What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

>

> Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after chemo

> only.

> Thoughts?

>

> K

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 15, 2010

A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

Yes, it is speculative.

Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

Thoughts?

K

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 7:57 AM, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Where do ideas like this come from? They seem totally speculative to me. ..

> .

>

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:36 PM, wrote:

>

> > What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

> >

> > Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after chemo

> > only.

> > Thoughts?

> >

> > K

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

April 15, 2010

Hi John,

---

A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

---

I have heard this type of thing from western herbalists, but have never heard

it from a Chinese Medical herbalist, although some who have had extensive

training in WM have stated similar things cautiously.

However, this is purely a biomedical point of view, and without any proof

behind it whatsoever.

We know that Huang Qi increases wound healing, we've known it for a very long

time; we also know that it supports upright / righteous qi. Tumours are the

opposite of upright / righteous qi. To me, it is largely a question of whether

we buy into our medicine or not.

Huang Qi is an important herb that must be used anytime the patient's

presentation calls for it (i.e. the organism requests it), regardless of what

stage of chemo or whatever that the person happens to be in.

Acupuncture supposedly promotes tumour growth. I am sure that if pressed for an

answer, these same people would also admit that yin-yang theory promotes tumour

growth as well.

If you search pubmed, you will find lots of info regarding Huang Qi's ability

to interrupt the growth of cancer and promote cancer cell death. You will also

find " concerns " regarding herbs and their ability to clear chemotherapy from the

body too quickly, but these concerns are theoretical (not having been proved in

clinical trials) and generally involve western herbs, which as we know are not

prescribed the way we would prescribe them.

Check out this meta-analysis of Chinese medicinals for cancer (yes, they

complain about the " poor methodology " but...):

CONCLUSION: Our meta-analysis displays compelling evidence of effectiveness for

hepatocellular cancers that should be evaluated in high-quality and transparent

clinical trials.

(PMID: 19674474)

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 15 April, 2010 11:23:05

Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

Yes, it is speculative.

Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

Thoughts?

K

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 7:57 AM, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Where do ideas like this come from? They seem totally speculative to me. ..

> .

>

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:36 PM, wrote:

>

> > What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

> >

> > Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after chemo

> > only.

> > Thoughts?

> >

> > K

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

April 15, 2010

Hugo,

these were western style herbalists who have told me this in the past about

Astragalus Huang qi.

Of course, they're looking at herbs singularly, not in synergy with other

herbs,

which we know is the hallmark of what we do.... ie. Fu zheng therapy

Still, it is interesting that a formula like Dang gu bu xue tang (Huang qi,

Dang gui)

is so effective in promoting new tissue growth (as in cuts)... I've seen

this many times

and this ties in with the other thread about Huang qi generating new flesh

from the Shen nong ben cao jing.

Eduardo,

thanks for putting those files up.

K

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi John,

>

> ---

>

> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

>

> ---

>

> I have heard this type of thing from western herbalists, but have never

> heard it from a Chinese Medical herbalist, although some who have had

> extensive training in WM have stated similar things cautiously.

> However, this is purely a biomedical point of view, and without any proof

> behind it whatsoever.

> We know that Huang Qi increases wound healing, we've known it for a very

> long time; we also know that it supports upright / righteous qi. Tumours are

> the opposite of upright / righteous qi. To me, it is largely a question of

> whether we buy into our medicine or not.

> Huang Qi is an important herb that must be used anytime the patient's

> presentation calls for it (i.e. the organism requests it), regardless of

> what stage of chemo or whatever that the person happens to be in.

> Acupuncture supposedly promotes tumour growth. I am sure that if pressed

> for an answer, these same people would also admit that yin-yang theory

> promotes tumour growth as well.

>

> If you search pubmed, you will find lots of info regarding Huang Qi's

> ability to interrupt the growth of cancer and promote cancer cell death. You

> will also find " concerns " regarding herbs and their ability to clear

> chemotherapy from the body too quickly, but these concerns are theoretical

> (not having been proved in clinical trials) and generally involve western

> herbs, which as we know are not prescribed the way we would prescribe them.

>

> Check out this meta-analysis of Chinese medicinals for cancer (yes, they

> complain about the " poor methodology " but...):

> CONCLUSION: Our meta-analysis displays compelling evidence of effectiveness

> for hepatocellular cancers that should be evaluated in high-quality and

> transparent clinical trials.

> (PMID: 19674474)

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> ________________________________

>

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Thu, 15 April, 2010 11:23:05

>

> Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>

> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

> Yes, it is speculative.

> Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

> http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

>

> Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

>

> Thoughts?

>

> K

>

> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 7:57 AM,

<zrosenbe<zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Where do ideas like this come from? They seem totally speculative to me.

> ..

> > .

> >

> > On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:36 PM, wrote:

> >

> > > What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

> > >

> > > Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after

> chemo

> > > only.

> > > Thoughts?

> > >

> > > K

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

April 15, 2010

I agree with Hugo. For years I've observed completely unreasonable fears

attributed to Chinese herbal medicine and acumoxa treatment when it comes to

cancer patients, without any solid data to back it up or any traditional

contraindications. In mainland China, herbal medicine and acupuncture are used

together with Western treatment methods for cancer patients routinely, and there

is nothing that I know of that indicates any negative interactions, in fact,

most interactions are positive, especially when practiced according to Chinese

medical criteria (yin/yang, pulse, tongue, palpation diagnosis, etc.). It seems

criminal to deny Western patients of these benefits, especially when chemo,

radiation and surgical treatments can be so devastating.

What is necessary is some specialized training in Chinese medical oncology, a

cancer patient is not a 'routine patient'. The Chinese medical practitioner has

to be very adept in their diagnostic, treatment, and patient management skills.

As a profession, we need to outgrow reflexive knee-jerk reactivity to hearsay

and rumors, or sketchy or incomplete speculative studies. There is a lot of

politics involved, and not, I'm afraid, a lot of true objectivity when it comes

to what is considered appropriate treatment.

On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> Hi John,

>

> ---

> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

>

> ---

>

> I have heard this type of thing from western herbalists, but have never heard

it from a Chinese Medical herbalist, although some who have had extensive

training in WM have stated similar things cautiously.

> However, this is purely a biomedical point of view, and without any proof

behind it whatsoever.

> We know that Huang Qi increases wound healing, we've known it for a very long

time; we also know that it supports upright / righteous qi. Tumours are the

opposite of upright / righteous qi. To me, it is largely a question of whether

we buy into our medicine or not.

> Huang Qi is an important herb that must be used anytime the patient's

presentation calls for it (i.e. the organism requests it), regardless of what

stage of chemo or whatever that the person happens to be in.

> Acupuncture supposedly promotes tumour growth. I am sure that if pressed for

an answer, these same people would also admit that yin-yang theory promotes

tumour growth as well.

>

> If you search pubmed, you will find lots of info regarding Huang Qi's ability

to interrupt the growth of cancer and promote cancer cell death. You will also

find " concerns " regarding herbs and their ability to clear chemotherapy from the

body too quickly, but these concerns are theoretical (not having been proved in

clinical trials) and generally involve western herbs, which as we know are not

prescribed the way we would prescribe them.

>

> Check out this meta-analysis of Chinese medicinals for cancer (yes, they

complain about the " poor methodology " but...):

> CONCLUSION: Our meta-analysis displays compelling evidence of effectiveness

for hepatocellular cancers that should be evaluated in high-quality and

transparent clinical trials.

> (PMID: 19674474)

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko

> Chinese Medicine

> Thu, 15 April, 2010 11:23:05

> Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>

> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the formation

> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

> Yes, it is speculative.

> Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

> http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

>

> Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

>

> Thoughts?

>

> K

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 15, 2010

Ze'v, I agree that the cancer patient is not a " routine patient " and " As a

profession, we need to outgrow reflexive knee-jerk reactivity to hearsay and

rumors, or sketchy or incomplete speculative studies. "

That's why it's good to investigate these claims from all angles, so that we

get a comprehensive perspective.

For instance, cancer diets are numerous and diverse as weight loss diets,

with often 180 degree perspectives.

Many 'experts' have completely opposing views and of course, they all have

studies to back them up.

For instance, here's a forum on the Pine Street Foundation page discussing

antioxidants and chemotherapy

http://pinestreetfoundation.org/category/chemotherapy-antioxidants/

I think that you studied with Michael Broffman.

It will be interesting to see what Huang Huang does for cancer patients.

K

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:29 AM, <zrosenbewrote:

>

> I agree with Hugo. For years I've observed completely unreasonable fears

> attributed to Chinese herbal medicine and acumoxa treatment when it comes to

> cancer patients, without any solid data to back it up or any traditional

> contraindications. In mainland China, herbal medicine and acupuncture are

> used together with Western treatment methods for cancer patients routinely,

> and there is nothing that I know of that indicates any negative

> interactions, in fact, most interactions are positive, especially when

> practiced according to Chinese medical criteria (yin/yang, pulse, tongue,

> palpation diagnosis, etc.). It seems criminal to deny Western patients of

> these benefits, especially when chemo, radiation and surgical treatments can

> be so devastating.

>

> What is necessary is some specialized training in Chinese medical oncology,

> a cancer patient is not a 'routine patient'. The Chinese medical

> practitioner has to be very adept in their diagnostic, treatment, and

> patient management skills.

>

> As a profession, we need to outgrow reflexive knee-jerk reactivity to

> hearsay and rumors, or sketchy or incomplete speculative studies. There is a

> lot of politics involved, and not, I'm afraid, a lot of true objectivity

> when it comes to what is considered appropriate treatment.

>

> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> > Hi John,

> >

> > ---

> > A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> > angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the

> formation

> > of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

> >

> > ---

> >

> > I have heard this type of thing from western herbalists, but have never

> heard it from a Chinese Medical herbalist, although some who have had

> extensive training in WM have stated similar things cautiously.

> > However, this is purely a biomedical point of view, and without any proof

> behind it whatsoever.

> > We know that Huang Qi increases wound healing, we've known it for a very

> long time; we also know that it supports upright / righteous qi. Tumours are

> the opposite of upright / righteous qi. To me, it is largely a question of

> whether we buy into our medicine or not.

> > Huang Qi is an important herb that must be used anytime the patient's

> presentation calls for it (i.e. the organism requests it), regardless of

> what stage of chemo or whatever that the person happens to be in.

> > Acupuncture supposedly promotes tumour growth. I am sure that if pressed

> for an answer, these same people would also admit that yin-yang theory

> promotes tumour growth as well.

> >

> > If you search pubmed, you will find lots of info regarding Huang Qi's

> ability to interrupt the growth of cancer and promote cancer cell death. You

> will also find " concerns " regarding herbs and their ability to clear

> chemotherapy from the body too quickly, but these concerns are theoretical

> (not having been proved in clinical trials) and generally involve western

> herbs, which as we know are not prescribed the way we would prescribe them.

> >

> > Check out this meta-analysis of Chinese medicinals for cancer (yes, they

> complain about the " poor methodology " but...):

> > CONCLUSION: Our meta-analysis displays compelling evidence of

> effectiveness for hepatocellular cancers that should be evaluated in

> high-quality and transparent clinical trials.

> > (PMID: 19674474)

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Thu, 15 April, 2010 11:23:05

> > Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> >

> > A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

> > angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the

> formation

> > of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

> > Yes, it is speculative.

> > Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

> > http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

> >

> > Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> > K

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

April 15, 2010

John,

It is amazing, the diversity of opinions, it approaches the 'blind man and the

elephant' perspective. Some say starve the cancer, some say feed it, high

protein, low protein, high 'carb', low 'carb'. Of course, there are different

kinds of proteins and carbohydrates, that is very reductive thinking to put

brown rice in the same category as angel food cake. .

We need a comprehensive overview with theoretical unity when discussing

diseases such as cancer. We have a strong framework in Chinese medicine, and we

can 'plug in' data from other sources such as biomedicine. Michael Broffman and

the Pine St. Foundation have done a exemplary job in that.

Antioxidants are not Chinese medicine per se, they come from the

nutriceutical world, so there may be more evidence as to their interactions with

chemotherapy/radiation. But to then apply that data to Chinese medical

treatments is quite unreasonable.

On Apr 15, 2010, at 12:20 PM, wrote:

> Ze'v, I agree that the cancer patient is not a " routine patient " and " As a

> profession, we need to outgrow reflexive knee-jerk reactivity to hearsay and

> rumors, or sketchy or incomplete speculative studies. "

>

> That's why it's good to investigate these claims from all angles, so that we

> get a comprehensive perspective.

> For instance, cancer diets are numerous and diverse as weight loss diets,

> with often 180 degree perspectives.

>

> Many 'experts' have completely opposing views and of course, they all have

> studies to back them up.

> For instance, here's a forum on the Pine Street Foundation page discussing

> antioxidants and chemotherapy

> http://pinestreetfoundation.org/category/chemotherapy-antioxidants/

>

> I think that you studied with Michael Broffman.

> It will be interesting to see what Huang Huang does for cancer patients.

>

> K

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:29 AM, <zrosenbewrote:

>

>>

>> I agree with Hugo. For years I've observed completely unreasonable fears

>> attributed to Chinese herbal medicine and acumoxa treatment when it comes to

>> cancer patients, without any solid data to back it up or any traditional

>> contraindications. In mainland China, herbal medicine and acupuncture are

>> used together with Western treatment methods for cancer patients routinely,

>> and there is nothing that I know of that indicates any negative

>> interactions, in fact, most interactions are positive, especially when

>> practiced according to Chinese medical criteria (yin/yang, pulse, tongue,

>> palpation diagnosis, etc.). It seems criminal to deny Western patients of

>> these benefits, especially when chemo, radiation and surgical treatments can

>> be so devastating.

>>

>> What is necessary is some specialized training in Chinese medical oncology,

>> a cancer patient is not a 'routine patient'. The Chinese medical

>> practitioner has to be very adept in their diagnostic, treatment, and

>> patient management skills.

>>

>> As a profession, we need to outgrow reflexive knee-jerk reactivity to

>> hearsay and rumors, or sketchy or incomplete speculative studies. There is a

>> lot of politics involved, and not, I'm afraid, a lot of true objectivity

>> when it comes to what is considered appropriate treatment.

>>

>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>>

>>> Hi John,

>>>

>>> ---

>>> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

>>> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the

>> formation

>>> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

>>>

>>> ---

>>>

>>> I have heard this type of thing from western herbalists, but have never

>> heard it from a Chinese Medical herbalist, although some who have had

>> extensive training in WM have stated similar things cautiously.

>>> However, this is purely a biomedical point of view, and without any proof

>> behind it whatsoever.

>>> We know that Huang Qi increases wound healing, we've known it for a very

>> long time; we also know that it supports upright / righteous qi. Tumours are

>> the opposite of upright / righteous qi. To me, it is largely a question of

>> whether we buy into our medicine or not.

>>> Huang Qi is an important herb that must be used anytime the patient's

>> presentation calls for it (i.e. the organism requests it), regardless of

>> what stage of chemo or whatever that the person happens to be in.

>>> Acupuncture supposedly promotes tumour growth. I am sure that if pressed

>> for an answer, these same people would also admit that yin-yang theory

>> promotes tumour growth as well.

>>>

>>> If you search pubmed, you will find lots of info regarding Huang Qi's

>> ability to interrupt the growth of cancer and promote cancer cell death. You

>> will also find " concerns " regarding herbs and their ability to clear

>> chemotherapy from the body too quickly, but these concerns are theoretical

>> (not having been proved in clinical trials) and generally involve western

>> herbs, which as we know are not prescribed the way we would prescribe them.

>>>

>>> Check out this meta-analysis of Chinese medicinals for cancer (yes, they

>> complain about the " poor methodology " but...):

>>> CONCLUSION: Our meta-analysis displays compelling evidence of

>> effectiveness for hepatocellular cancers that should be evaluated in

>> high-quality and transparent clinical trials.

>>> (PMID: 19674474)

>>>

>>> Thanks,

>>> Hugo

>>>

>>> ________________________________

>>> Hugo Ramiro

>>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

>>> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>>>

>>> ________________________________

>>> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>>> Thu, 15 April, 2010 11:23:05

>>> Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

>>>

>>> A few herbalists in the past have said to me that Huang qi can promote

>>> angiogenesis of tumors, since it can promote cell growth and the

>> formation

>>> of new blood vessels and should be used only after chemo...

>>> Yes, it is speculative.

>>> Read the paragraph on " Astragalus enhances wound healing " :

>>> http://www.jcm.co.uk/catalogue.php?catID=712 & opener=0-691-712

>>>

>>> Otherwise, it seems Huang qi is in almost every TCM cancer formula.

>>>

>>> Thoughts?

>>>

>>> K

>>>

>>

>> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

>> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

>> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>>

April 16, 2010

My qigong instructor told me that tonifying qi will feed cancer.

-

" " <zrosenbe

Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:57 AM

Re: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> Where do ideas like this come from? They seem totally speculative to me.

> .. .

>

> On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:36 PM, wrote:

>

>> What are your views on using Huang qi during cancer treatments?

>>

>> Some say that it can make the tumor grow. Other say to use it after chemo

>> only.

>> Thoughts?

>>

>> K

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

April 16, 2010

I sat with a cancer specialist for 2 weeks in Beijing and wrote down as many of

the prescriptions as I could. There were was never discussion of any herbs

including Dang Gui, Huang Qi etc... being prohibited and indeed looking at the

list again I remember how much Huang Qi he used (big doses) and especially Tai

Zi Shen.

I have posted very, very rough notes in the CHA files section. These are only

jottings and shouldn't constitute a " study " of any one or all cancer cases.

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> John,

> It is amazing, the diversity of opinions, it approaches the 'blind man and

the elephant' perspective. Some say starve the cancer, some say feed it, high

protein, low protein, high 'carb', low 'carb'. Of course, there are different

kinds of proteins and carbohydrates, that is very reductive thinking to put

brown rice in the same category as angel food cake. .

>

> We need a comprehensive overview with theoretical unity when discussing

diseases such as cancer. We have a strong framework in Chinese medicine, and we

can 'plug in' data from other sources such as biomedicine. Michael Broffman and

the Pine St. Foundation have done a exemplary job in that.

>

> Antioxidants are not Chinese medicine per se, they come from the

nutriceutical world, so there may be more evidence as to their interactions with

chemotherapy/radiation. But to then apply that data to Chinese medical

treatments is quite unreasonable.

>

April 16, 2010

Thanks for the laugh!

More of the same rhetoric: What you eat can't possibly effect your health! " I

am certain this same teaching fellow (from Johns Hopkins??) does a great job at

brainwashing many bright young aspiring physicians to believe ONLY DRUGS can

positively effect the health of a person. I imagine him as I type penning his

masterpiece-a debunking of The China Study.

Mark Z

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> This makes sense (alkaline diet) breaking down tumors

> if we think about bitter herbs drying up phlegm.

> Aren't most of the cancer herbs (toxic-heat category) cold and bitter?

> Bitter herbs contain more alkaloids.

>

> So, carbs (sugars) are acidic and can feed tumors (create more phlegm).

>

> Meats and carbs generally create more acidity in the body,

> while vegetables and most fruits create alkalinity in the body.

>

> Most people are too acidic, prone to inflammation and chronic cellular

> degeneration

> Is this all correct?

>

> Here's another perspective on pH

> http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

>

> K

>

> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:45 AM, zedbowls <zaranski wrote:

>

> >

> > I haven't noticed a post regarding system pH. We have a woman patient who

> > " beat cancer " by using baking soda in water to alkylize her system. She

> > claims to have helped many others do the same. There are books about this.

> >

> > The idea is cancer and many other opportunistic (and undesireable) things

> > thrive in an acid environment, and our immune system works poorly in just

> > such an environment. Our immune system works well (as designed) in an

> > alkyline environment and cancer (etc.) do poorly in just such an

> > environment.

> >

> > Any other experiences out there regarding this old concept?

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum@> wrote:

> > >

> > > When did that get approved?

> > >

> > > -

> > > " Donald Snow " <don83407@>

> > > To:

<Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>

> > >

> > > Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:48 AM

> > > RE: Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > >

> > > >

> > > > A Rife device called the Beam Ray is now FDA approved for veterinary

> > use

> > > > and it has a high efficacy in cancer treatment. It is now also FDA

> > > > approved as an experimental device for use on humans and I use it with

> > > > good results in my clinic.

> > > >

> > > > This device was invented by Royal Raymond Rife and you can google his

> > name

> > > > and work.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this helps,

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow,

> > > >

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > > RCVVMD@

> >

> > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:47:03 -0400

> > > > Re:herbs for bone cancer

> > > >

> > > > Hi there....

> > > >

> > > > Re. osteosarcoma in the dog: very unusual to be bilateral; have they

> > > > biopsied these lesions? OSA is known for very quick micrometastasis and

> >

> > > > usually lung mets first. Usually by the time the bone tumors are

> > evident

> > > > to us, they've already metastasized, whether or not you see it at the

> > > > moment. CT's may/will show more definition than radiographs of course,

> > > > and ultrasound at least of abdomen for other mets abnormalities. Also

> > > > these are phenomenally painful neoplasias. For general info, see

> > > > www.veterinarypartners.com. I would be thinking of hoxsey-like formula

> >

> > > > and/or hoxsey-boneset formula, and/or Jing Tang Herbal's Bone Stasis

> > > > formula (tcvmherbal.com). Also consider the dog's tcm pattern

> > diagnosis,

> > > > of course, in approaching a formula. AP will be helpful with pain and

> > > > mobility support. Some use IV Vitamin C. Antioxidants are helpful, and

> > > > for quality of life if nothing else, change diet to a whole foods

> > based,

> > > > home cooked regimen. Lowwww carb/ no grain if possible- feed the

> > patient,

> > > > starve the tumor.!

> > > >

> > > > Good l.uck...

> > > >

> > > > Robin Valentine

> > > >

Sign In

herbs for bone cancer

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