Diabetic neuropathy

[Guest guest]

> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked

> about (ankylosing spondylitis/MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

> back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much. >

> Petra

 

 

 

You still seeing him? Did I ever send the protocals for AS? I also know

three things that can kill MRSA. Think I posted that. Electroherbalism,

Colloidal Silver and Allicin.

Mercurius

[Guest guest]

I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet. She

claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have found. She

also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

 

Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

 

No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

nightly.

Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

 

My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a few

herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much with the

Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no proof of this

happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build her herbs up and

watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it hopefully lead to a

reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need? Otherwise should I just

remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang Zhu

 

Her full formula is

yi yi ren 15

fu ling 10

niu xi 10

mu gua 9

dang gui wei 9

cang zhu 8

huang bai 9

han fang ji 9

bei jia 9

huang qin 9

ze xie 9

qin jiao 9

mai men dong 12

sha shen 12

tian hua fen 12

shan yao 12

sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

 

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked about

(ankylosing spondylitis/MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His back is

pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

 

 

Petra

[Guest guest]

Dear Petra.

The tongue shows more a Qi Xu than Yin Xu, because it is pale.

So I would add herbs such as:

- Huang Qi

- Shu Di Huang.

Greetings,

Jean

 Abraços/ Saludos/ Greetings

Jean

 

 

Jean G.F. Joaquim,

DVM, MSc, Dr.

Coordenador Científico Bioethicus

ABRAVET, IVAS, NEUROLATINVET and IVAPM Member

Vet. Acupuncture and Homeopathie

www.bioethicus.com.br

Curar, frequentemente aliviar, confortar sempre.

You bring your animal. We bring the cure.

 

 

 

 

________________________________

petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan

Chinese Medicine

Sun, March 7, 2010 10:58:32 PM

Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet. She

claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have found. She

also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

 

Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

 

No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

nightly.

Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

 

My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a few

herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much with the

Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no proof of this

happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build her herbs up and

watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it hopefully lead to a

reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need? Otherwise should I just

remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang Zhu

 

Her full formula is

yi yi ren 15

fu ling 10

niu xi 10

mu gua 9

dang gui wei 9

cang zhu 8

huang bai 9

han fang ji 9

bei jia 9

huang qin 9

ze xie 9

qin jiao 9

mai men dong 12

sha shen 12

tian hua fen 12

shan yao 12

sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked about

(ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His back is

pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

 

Petra

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Petra,

 

 

 

I have had really good success treating a patient with AS, who also had bad

seasonal allergies. Using Kiiko's protocol we have dramatically improved things

for him. Your patient is also dealing with the appearance of immune issues.

Drop me an offlist email if you want to discuss this more.

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

petrabuchanan

Mon, 8 Mar 2010 01:58:32 +0000

Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet. She

claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have found. She

also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

 

Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

 

No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

nightly.

Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

 

My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a few

herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much with the

Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no proof of this

happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build her herbs up and

watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it hopefully lead to a

reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need? Otherwise should I just

remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang Zhu

 

Her full formula is

yi yi ren 15

fu ling 10

niu xi 10

mu gua 9

dang gui wei 9

cang zhu 8

huang bai 9

han fang ji 9

bei jia 9

huang qin 9

ze xie 9

qin jiao 9

mai men dong 12

sha shen 12

tian hua fen 12

shan yao 12

sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked about

(ankylosing spondylitis/MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His back is

pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

 

Petra

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

'Diabetic feet' is an incurable symptom for western medicine and I must

complement you that your treatment procotol is on the right track.

 

I am not sure what you mean 'anti-diabetic properties' as tcm has no terminology

for diabetics. In the book of Jin Gui Yao Lue, it is discussed as 'Dispersion

Thirst'. We surely do not discuss insulin formally as we cannot claim any herbs

has documented evidance for treating that.

 

Base upon your treatment methods, Si Miao San (Four Mysterious Decoction) as

base formula is not powerful enough. You may need to address more about

heat-clearing toxin-resolving treatment methods.

 

Besides, I am not sure what do these herbs address for.

 

han fang ji 9

bei jia 9

 

Regards,

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

I am not seeing him anymore. I was really disappointed that he stopped coming. I

said to give it at least three months to notice an improvement. He stopped

coming after about one month. His spine is severely degenerated and full of pins

so regardless I don't think I would have been able to perform any miracles.

 

--- On Sun, 3/7/10, Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

wrote:

 

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, March 7, 2010, 8:08 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I

asked

 

> about (ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

 

> back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much. >

 

> Petra

 

 

 

You still seeing him? Did I ever send the protocals for AS? I also know

 

three things that can kill MRSA. Think I posted that. Electroherbalism,

 

Colloidal Silver and Allicin.

 

Mercurius

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Mike, I will. I am curious. I have patients with less severe AS that I am

sure would benefit.

 

--- On Mon, 3/8/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 8, 2010, 1:20 PM

 

 

Petra,

 

 

 

I have had really good success treating a patient with AS,  who also had bad

seasonal allergies.  Using Kiiko's protocol we have dramatically improved

things for him.  Your patient is also dealing with the appearance of immune

issues.  Drop me an offlist email if you want to discuss this more. 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

petrabuchanan

Mon, 8 Mar 2010 01:58:32 +0000

Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet. She

claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have found. She

also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

 

Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

 

No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

nightly.

Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

 

My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a few

herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much with the

Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no proof of this

happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build her herbs up and

watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it hopefully lead to a

reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need? Otherwise should I just

remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang Zhu

 

Her full formula is

yi yi ren 15

fu ling 10

niu xi 10

mu gua 9

dang gui wei 9

cang zhu 8

huang bai 9

han fang ji 9

bei jia 9

huang qin 9

ze xie 9

qin jiao 9

mai men dong 12

sha shen 12

tian hua fen 12

shan yao 12

sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked about

(ankylosing spondylitis/MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His back is

pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

 

Petra

 

 

 

 

                         

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

I got that wording from the Chen book. I got the formula out of Bob Flaws

treatment of modern western diseases with TCM. Otherwise known as Fen Fang Ji

treats wind damp pain and promotes diuresis. Bei Jia is to nourish yin, anchor

yang, and move blood. It seems appropriate for this formula. Though you

obviously do not see a reason. I would love your expertise on this matter. Also

if you saw my other post in response to the tongue color. Any thoughts you have

would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you, Petra

 

--- On Mon, 3/8/10, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Monday, March 8, 2010, 6:58 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'Diabetic feet' is an incurable symptom for western medicine and I must

complement you that your treatment procotol is on the right track.

 

 

 

I am not sure what you mean 'anti-diabetic properties' as tcm has no terminology

for diabetics. In the book of Jin Gui Yao Lue, it is discussed as 'Dispersion

Thirst'. We surely do not discuss insulin formally as we cannot claim any herbs

has documented evidance for treating that.

 

 

 

Base upon your treatment methods, Si Miao San (Four Mysterious Decoction) as

base formula is not powerful enough. You may need to address more about

heat-clearing toxin-resolving treatment methods.

 

 

 

Besides, I am not sure what do these herbs address for.

 

 

 

han fang ji 9

 

bei jia 9

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jean,

I would be cautious with Shu di,

because it is very sweet (sugary), the way it's processed with wine,

which might spike the diabetic's blood sugar.

Usually Shu di is a larger dose in any formula.

 

Thoughts?

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim <jeanvetwrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Petra.

> The tongue shows more a Qi Xu than Yin Xu, because it is pale.

> So I would add herbs such as:

> - Huang Qi

> - Shu Di Huang.

> Greetings,

> Jean

> Abraços/ Saludos/ Greetings

> Jean

>

> Jean G.F. Joaquim,

> DVM, MSc, Dr.

> Coordenador Científico Bioethicus

> ABRAVET, IVAS, NEUROLATINVET and IVAPM Member

> Vet. Acupuncture and Homeopathie

> www.bioethicus.com.br

> Curar, frequentemente aliviar, confortar sempre.

> You bring your animal. We bring the cure.

>

> ________________________________

> petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan%40>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Sun, March 7, 2010 10:58:32 PM

> Diabetic neuropathy

>

>

>

> I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet.

> She claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have

> found. She also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

>

> Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

> Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

>

> No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

> nightly.

> Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

> Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

>

> My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

> deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a

> few herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much

> with the Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no

> proof of this happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build

> her herbs up and watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it

> hopefully lead to a reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need?

> Otherwise should I just remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang

> Zhu

>

> Her full formula is

> yi yi ren 15

> fu ling 10

> niu xi 10

> mu gua 9

> dang gui wei 9

> cang zhu 8

> huang bai 9

> han fang ji 9

> bei jia 9

> huang qin 9

> ze xie 9

> qin jiao 9

> mai men dong 12

> sha shen 12

> tian hua fen 12

> shan yao 12

> sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

>

> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked

> about (ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

> back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

>

> Petra

>

>

[Guest guest]

Petra,

Your patient has been drinking concentrated fermented sugars every night for

years.

That's like eating a piece of cake every night.

 

I'm also seeing a diabetic neuropathy patient who responded much better

with

Xue fu zhu yu tang than Yu quan wan (a specific diabetic formula) or Du huo

ji sheng tang.(for promoting Qi and Blood circulation to the legs).

 

I'm thinking that Xue fu zhu yu tang has Si ni san in it, which is getting

Qi to the extremities, as well as moving and tonifying blood. Also, Sheng

di is used in it, whereas Shu di is used in Du huo ji sheng tang. My

patient checks his blood sugar daily and found that it spiked when he was on

Du huo ji sheng tang, but reduced on Xue fu zhu yu tang. Also, XFZYT kept

his pins and needles at a 2/10 for the week on most days. DHJST kept it at

a 4/10.

 

In 5 treatments, he went from a 9/10 to 2/10 by using Xue fu zhu yu san...

4.5 gms of 5:1 concentrated powder twice / day

and the following points that I checked his foot sensation response with

directly after needling each point: Ear: shen men, sympathetic Yin

tang, LI 4, KD 6, SP 6, ST 41, LV 3

I checked many other points, which failed to change his sensory response.

The ones above brought the pins and needles sensation down to .5-1 out of 10

after each session.

The days following, his foot sensation would be influenced by the herbal

formula he was on.

 

Hope this helps,

K

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Petra Buchanan <petrabuchananwrote:

 

>

>

> So I said peeled. or meant to. It was very red actually. This week she came

> in and it was much paler. Then she informed me that since her last treatment

> she had had nothing to drink and that she had been having two glasses of

> wine every night for years. So yes, now I do think I need to add some qi and

> blood tonics to the formula. Thank you for picking up on that.

>

> --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim

<jeanvet<jeanvet%40>>

> wrote:

>

> Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim <jeanvet <jeanvet%40>>

>

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Sunday, March 7, 2010, 6:09 PM

>

>

>

>

> Dear Petra.

>

> The tongue shows more a Qi Xu than Yin Xu, because it is pale.

>

> So I would add herbs such as:

>

> - Huang Qi

>

> - Shu Di Huang.

>

> Greetings,

>

> Jean

>

> Abraços/ Saludos/ Greetings

>

> Jean

>

> Jean G.F. Joaquim,

>

> DVM, MSc, Dr.

>

> Coordenador Científico Bioethicus

>

> ABRAVET, IVAS, NEUROLATINVET and IVAPM Member

>

> Vet. Acupuncture and Homeopathie

>

> www.bioethicus. com.br

>

> Curar, frequentemente aliviar, confortar sempre.

>

> You bring your animal. We bring the cure.

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

>

> petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan@ >

>

>

>

> Sun, March 7, 2010 10:58:32 PM

>

> Diabetic neuropathy

>

>

>

> I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet.

> She claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have

> found. She also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

>

> Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

>

> Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

>

> No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

> nightly.

>

> Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

>

> Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

>

> My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

> deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a

> few herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much

> with the Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no

> proof of this happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build

> her herbs up and watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it

> hopefully lead to a reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need?

> Otherwise should I just remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang

> Zhu

>

> Her full formula is

>

> yi yi ren 15

>

> fu ling 10

>

> niu xi 10

>

> mu gua 9

>

> dang gui wei 9

>

> cang zhu 8

>

> huang bai 9

>

> han fang ji 9

>

> bei jia 9

>

> huang qin 9

>

> ze xie 9

>

> qin jiao 9

>

> mai men dong 12

>

> sha shen 12

>

> tian hua fen 12

>

> shan yao 12

>

> sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

>

> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked

> about (ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

> back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

>

> Petra

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry I do not have the two mentioned books and therefore cannot comment. Based

upon the presence of red tongue, the use of fang ji may not be the best choice.

Draing fluids will damage the yin further.

 

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

one clarification... the classical Sun Si Miao formulation of Du huo ji

sheng tang has Sheng Di,

but the Mayway 5:1 concentrated powder formula has Shu di huang,

which is the one I used for this patient for one week.

 

The Mayway 5:1 concentrated powder of Xue fu zhu yu tang has Sheng Di huang

in it,

as it was traditionally formulated by Wang Qing-Ren.

 

Du huo ji sheng tang expels wind-cold-damp Bi and tonifies deficiency.

Xue fu zhu yu tang tonifies blood and moves blood and Qi.

 

My diabetic neuropathy patient has major LV qi stagnation and KD def

(eyebrow hairs falling out, wears hearing aids), not the same presentation

as Petra's patient, but still blood xu.

 

Anyone else have experiences using Shu di vs Sheng di in the context of

diabetic patients?

 

Thanks,

K

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 12:31 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Petra,

> Your patient has been drinking concentrated fermented sugars every night

> for years.

> That's like eating a piece of cake every night.

>

> I'm also seeing a diabetic neuropathy patient who responded much better

> with

> Xue fu zhu yu tang than Yu quan wan (a specific diabetic formula) or Du huo

> ji sheng tang.(for promoting Qi and Blood circulation to the legs).

>

> I'm thinking that Xue fu zhu yu tang has Si ni san in it, which is getting

> Qi to the extremities, as well as moving and tonifying blood. Also, Sheng

> di is used in it, whereas Shu di is used in Du huo ji sheng tang. My

> patient checks his blood sugar daily and found that it spiked when he was on

> Du huo ji sheng tang, but reduced on Xue fu zhu yu tang. Also, XFZYT kept

> his pins and needles at a 2/10 for the week on most days. DHJST kept it at

> a 4/10.

>

> In 5 treatments, he went from a 9/10 to 2/10 by using Xue fu zhu yu san...

> 4.5 gms of 5:1 concentrated powder twice / day

> and the following points that I checked his foot sensation response with

> directly after needling each point: Ear: shen men, sympathetic Yin

> tang, LI 4, KD 6, SP 6, ST 41, LV 3

> I checked many other points, which failed to change his sensory response.

> The ones above brought the pins and needles sensation down to .5-1 out of 10

> after each session.

> The days following, his foot sensation would be influenced by the herbal

> formula he was on.

>

> Hope this helps,

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Petra Buchanan <petrabuchananwrote:

>

>>

>>

>> So I said peeled. or meant to. It was very red actually. This week she

>> came in and it was much paler. Then she informed me that since her last

>> treatment she had had nothing to drink and that she had been having two

>> glasses of wine every night for years. So yes, now I do think I need to add

>> some qi and blood tonics to the formula. Thank you for picking up on that.

>>

>> --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim

<jeanvet<jeanvet%40>>

>> wrote:

>>

>> Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim <jeanvet <jeanvet%40>>

>>

>> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> Sunday, March 7, 2010, 6:09 PM

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Dear Petra.

>>

>> The tongue shows more a Qi Xu than Yin Xu, because it is pale.

>>

>> So I would add herbs such as:

>>

>> - Huang Qi

>>

>> - Shu Di Huang.

>>

>> Greetings,

>>

>> Jean

>>

>> Abraços/ Saludos/ Greetings

>>

>> Jean

>>

>> Jean G.F. Joaquim,

>>

>> DVM, MSc, Dr.

>>

>> Coordenador Científico Bioethicus

>>

>> ABRAVET, IVAS, NEUROLATINVET and IVAPM Member

>>

>> Vet. Acupuncture and Homeopathie

>>

>> www.bioethicus. com.br

>>

>> Curar, frequentemente aliviar, confortar sempre.

>>

>> You bring your animal. We bring the cure.

>>

>> ____________ _________ _________ __

>>

>> petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan@ >

>>

>>

>>

>> Sun, March 7, 2010 10:58:32 PM

>>

>> Diabetic neuropathy

>>

>>

>>

>> I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet.

>> She claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have

>> found. She also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

>>

>> Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

>>

>> Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

>>

>> No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

>> nightly.

>>

>> Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

>>

>> Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

>>

>> My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

>> deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a

>> few herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much

>> with the Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no

>> proof of this happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build

>> her herbs up and watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it

>> hopefully lead to a reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need?

>> Otherwise should I just remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang

>> Zhu

>>

>> Her full formula is

>>

>> yi yi ren 15

>>

>> fu ling 10

>>

>> niu xi 10

>>

>> mu gua 9

>>

>> dang gui wei 9

>>

>> cang zhu 8

>>

>> huang bai 9

>>

>> han fang ji 9

>>

>> bei jia 9

>>

>> huang qin 9

>>

>> ze xie 9

>>

>> qin jiao 9

>>

>> mai men dong 12

>>

>> sha shen 12

>>

>> tian hua fen 12

>>

>> shan yao 12

>>

>> sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

>>

>> Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked

>> about (ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

>> back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

>>

>> Petra

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

John,

 

I think you also use Kiiko's style acupuncture. Can you tell me what the

abdominal reactions were for this patient? I am curious if Oketsu and immune

were reactive as well as blood sugar points.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 9 Mar 2010 00:31:25 -0800

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

>

> Petra,

> Your patient has been drinking concentrated fermented sugars every night for

> years.

> That's like eating a piece of cake every night.

>

> I'm also seeing a diabetic neuropathy patient who responded much better

> with

> Xue fu zhu yu tang than Yu quan wan (a specific diabetic formula) or Du huo

> ji sheng tang.(for promoting Qi and Blood circulation to the legs).

>

> I'm thinking that Xue fu zhu yu tang has Si ni san in it, which is getting

> Qi to the extremities, as well as moving and tonifying blood. Also, Sheng

> di is used in it, whereas Shu di is used in Du huo ji sheng tang. My

> patient checks his blood sugar daily and found that it spiked when he was on

> Du huo ji sheng tang, but reduced on Xue fu zhu yu tang. Also, XFZYT kept

> his pins and needles at a 2/10 for the week on most days. DHJST kept it at

> a 4/10.

>

> In 5 treatments, he went from a 9/10 to 2/10 by using Xue fu zhu yu san...

> 4.5 gms of 5:1 concentrated powder twice / day

> and the following points that I checked his foot sensation response with

> directly after needling each point: Ear: shen men, sympathetic Yin

> tang, LI 4, KD 6, SP 6, ST 41, LV 3

> I checked many other points, which failed to change his sensory response.

> The ones above brought the pins and needles sensation down to .5-1 out of 10

> after each session.

> The days following, his foot sensation would be influenced by the herbal

> formula he was on.

>

> Hope this helps,

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Petra Buchanan <petrabuchananwrote:

>

> >

> >

> > So I said peeled. or meant to. It was very red actually. This week she came

> > in and it was much paler. Then she informed me that since her last treatment

> > she had had nothing to drink and that she had been having two glasses of

> > wine every night for years. So yes, now I do think I need to add some qi and

> > blood tonics to the formula. Thank you for picking up on that.

> >

> > --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim

<jeanvet<jeanvet%40>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > Dr. Jean G. F. Joaquim <jeanvet <jeanvet%40>>

> >

> > Re: Diabetic neuropathy

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Sunday, March 7, 2010, 6:09 PM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Petra.

> >

> > The tongue shows more a Qi Xu than Yin Xu, because it is pale.

> >

> > So I would add herbs such as:

> >

> > - Huang Qi

> >

> > - Shu Di Huang.

> >

> > Greetings,

> >

> > Jean

> >

> > Abraços/ Saludos/ Greetings

> >

> > Jean

> >

> > Jean G.F. Joaquim,

> >

> > DVM, MSc, Dr.

> >

> > Coordenador Científico Bioethicus

> >

> > ABRAVET, IVAS, NEUROLATINVET and IVAPM Member

> >

> > Vet. Acupuncture and Homeopathie

> >

> > www.bioethicus. com.br

> >

> > Curar, frequentemente aliviar, confortar sempre.

> >

> > You bring your animal. We bring the cure.

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> >

> > petrabuchanan <petrabuchanan@ >

> >

> >

> >

> > Sun, March 7, 2010 10:58:32 PM

> >

> > Diabetic neuropathy

> >

> >

> >

> > I have a 49 yo patient with severe burning pain in the bones of her feet.

> > She claims it is not a neuropathy but that is the best definition I have

> > found. She also has low back and joint pain. Onset one and a half years ago.

> >

> > Type one Diabetes. onset 1985. Low thyroid, onset 1994.

> >

> > Drugs: Armor thyroid, Lisinopril, Insulin(pump)

> >

> > No thirst. Dry skin, hair and nails. Very low energy. Wakes to urinate 2 x

> > nightly.

> >

> > Pulse: tiny and thin on top then deep and slippery.

> >

> > Tongue: Very swollen, cracked and peeled.

> >

> > My main question is regarding herbs. I have diagnosed her with severe yin

> > deficiency and damp heat stagnation. The formula I put together contains a

> > few herbs that have anti-diabetic properties. Is this going to be too much

> > with the Insulin and cause hypoglycemia. From what I have read there is no

> > proof of this happening just a caution. I am wondering if we slowly build

> > her herbs up and watch for this would that be adaquite, and would it

> > hopefully lead to a reduction in the amount of insulin that she would need?

> > Otherwise should I just remove those herbs? It is only Shan Yao, and Cang

> > Zhu

> >

> > Her full formula is

> >

> > yi yi ren 15

> >

> > fu ling 10

> >

> > niu xi 10

> >

> > mu gua 9

> >

> > dang gui wei 9

> >

> > cang zhu 8

> >

> > huang bai 9

> >

> > han fang ji 9

> >

> > bei jia 9

> >

> > huang qin 9

> >

> > ze xie 9

> >

> > qin jiao 9

> >

> > mai men dong 12

> >

> > sha shen 12

> >

> > tian hua fen 12

> >

> > shan yao 12

> >

> > sang bai pi 10 (she also has a chronic dry cough)

> >

> > Any input would be greatly appreciated. Also my last patient that I asked

> > about (ankylosing spondylitis/ MRSA). Can't say I had the best results. His

> > back is pretty deteriorated and his lifestyle was not helping much.

> >

> > Petra

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

patient.

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

completely, so that's his homework.

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

on the bottom of his feet.

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

assume.

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

next treatment.

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

K

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Use Kiiko's pachi-pachi e'stim with three needles on each foot with three

stimulations each. The results should be immediate and profound. This

treatment is even more efficacious when used with a Russian SCENAR with 60% to

100% relief on the first visit. It takes 9 to 15 treatments on average for

permanent resolution of the neuropathy. They must control their blood glucose.

 

 

 

To lower blood glucose levels only three points are needed. It is important to

add no other points. Before inserting the needles, get their blood glucose

level. If it is high, needle the following points:

 

 

 

PiShu/weiguanxiashu bilat

 

UB 23 bilat

 

Kid 3 bilat

 

 

 

Retain needle for 30 minutes and retest their BCG. It should drop

significantly. If you misplace pishu and needle UB 18, their BCG will rise.

Therefore, it is important to have the correct locations.

 

If you want to know more about this protocol, contact PCOM and ask for Dr.

Snow's doctoral dissertation on Diabetes.

 

 

 

Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

patient.

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

completely, so that's his homework.

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

on the bottom of his feet.

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

assume.

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

next treatment.

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

K

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

 

Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for most

patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues. Patients

seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the disc problems.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

 

patient.

 

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

completely, so that's his homework.

 

 

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

 

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

 

on the bottom of his feet.

 

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

 

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

 

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

assume.

 

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

next treatment.

 

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

 

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

 

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

K

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I didn't do the neuro-vascular compression of the thigh treatment with this

patient. He doesn't have any major oketsu, oketsu kai,

neck pain or pain along the left inner thigh channels. He has some

tightness/ tenseness under the right rib cage and adrenal reflex showing.

Hence, LV 3 (which is always sore on him, especially left-side) and KD 6,

which relieves those abdominal reflexes.

I always check for the following signs: oketsu, immune, adrenal, ST Qi,

right / left subcostal, Ren 15 area, Ren 12, Ren 9, Ren 6, (lower KD and ST

points for women = uterus/ovaries), Dai mai, ST 25, KD 27.... Lung 1/2, UB 2

(pituitary), ST 9 (thyroid), GB 20, SJ 17.

 

He is bitter about a lot of things in life and so he supplemented his body

with some superficial sweetness (sugar) to fill this emptiness.

One of my teachers in Hawaii said that diabetics are always trying to make

their life sweeter, because of the bitterness in their hearts.

 

I also love practicing this kind of direct palpation acupuncture, with

instant feedback.

K

 

 

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:49 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

>

> John,

>

> Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

> compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for

> most patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues.

> Patients seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the

> disc problems.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Mike,

>

> Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

>

> feels any pressure pain anywhere,

>

> except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

>

> So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from

> the

>

> patient.

>

> Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

>

> directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

>

> Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

>

> While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

>

> completely, so that's his homework.

>

>

>

> The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in

> Kiiko's

>

> Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

>

> so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve

> sensation

>

> on the bottom of his feet.

>

> Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP

> 3.2,

>

> ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I

> wrote

>

> out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I

> would

>

> assume.

>

> The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

>

> 62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

>

> have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

>

> around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

>

> treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

>

> next treatment.

>

> The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the

> week

>

> and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

>

> the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

>

> thru-thru towards KD 1.

>

>

>

> Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

>

> K

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting! She has a ton of pain along the GB and Inner thigh. She started

shaking very severely during our last treatment. So I am not so sure about

acupuncture as a therapy. We are going to try again next week with a few needles

and some hand holding. I think I need to get that book.

 

Petra

 

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 5:24 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

I didn't do the neuro-vascular compression of the thigh treatment with this

 

patient. He doesn't have any major oketsu, oketsu kai,

 

neck pain or pain along the left inner thigh channels. He has some

 

tightness/ tenseness under the right rib cage and adrenal reflex showing.

 

Hence, LV 3 (which is always sore on him, especially left-side) and KD 6,

 

which relieves those abdominal reflexes.

 

I always check for the following signs: oketsu, immune, adrenal, ST Qi,

 

right / left subcostal, Ren 15 area, Ren 12, Ren 9, Ren 6, (lower KD and ST

 

points for women = uterus/ovaries) , Dai mai, ST 25, KD 27.... Lung 1/2, UB 2

 

(pituitary), ST 9 (thyroid), GB 20, SJ 17.

 

 

 

He is bitter about a lot of things in life and so he supplemented his body

 

with some superficial sweetness (sugar) to fill this emptiness.

 

One of my teachers in Hawaii said that diabetics are always trying to make

 

their life sweeter, because of the bitterness in their hearts.

 

 

 

I also love practicing this kind of direct palpation acupuncture, with

 

instant feedback.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 4:49 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

> John,

 

>

 

> Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

 

> compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for

 

> most patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues.

 

> Patients seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the

 

> disc problems.

 

>

 

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

> Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

 

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Mike,

 

>

 

> Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

>

 

> feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

>

 

> except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

>

 

> So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from

 

> the

 

>

 

> patient.

 

>

 

> Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

>

 

> directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

>

 

> Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

>

 

> While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

>

 

> completely, so that's his homework.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in

 

> Kiiko's

 

>

 

> Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

>

 

> so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve

 

> sensation

 

>

 

> on the bottom of his feet.

 

>

 

> Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP

 

> 3.2,

 

>

 

> ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I

 

> wrote

 

>

 

> out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I

 

> would

 

>

 

> assume.

 

>

 

> The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

>

 

> 62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

>

 

> have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

>

 

> around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

>

 

> treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

>

 

> next treatment.

 

>

 

> The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the

 

> week

 

>

 

> and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

>

 

> the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

>

 

> thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

So what is neuro-vascular compression of the thigh?

 

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 2:49 PM

 

 

John,

 

Good to know.  I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

compression of the thigh.  I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for most

patients.  I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues.  Patients

seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the disc

problems. 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

     

     

      Mike,

 

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

 

patient.

 

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

completely, so that's his homework.

 

 

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

 

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

 

on the bottom of his feet.

 

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

 

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

 

out earlier.  Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

assume.

 

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41.    I

 

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

next treatment.

 

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

 

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

 

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

K

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

So that was what I was thinking. Her symtoms presented as damp and yin xu. As

well as her tongue being so swollen and her pulse being slippery. I am very yin

xu so I am very concious of that and tend to err on the side of yin tonics. Now

that she is not drinking, things have changed and I will address that thank you.

 

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote:

 

Yuk Ming <sxm2649

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 6:53 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry I do not have the two mentioned books and therefore cannot comment.

Based upon the presence of red tongue, the use of fang ji may not be the best

choice. Draing fluids will damage the yin further.

 

 

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. Snow,

Thanks for the findings...

Interesting that the SP and KD back-shu points lower blood sugar levels, but

UB 18 (LV) can make blood glucose rise.

Is this an instance with wood overacting on earth, making the earth weaker?

As the Nei jing states... when problems with the earth, avoid the sour

flavor (LV).

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

>

> Use Kiiko's pachi-pachi e'stim with three needles on each foot with three

> stimulations each. The results should be immediate and profound. This

> treatment is even more efficacious when used with a Russian SCENAR with 60%

> to 100% relief on the first visit. It takes 9 to 15 treatments on average

> for permanent resolution of the neuropathy. They must control their blood

> glucose.

>

>

>

> To lower blood glucose levels only three points are needed. It is

> important to add no other points. Before inserting the needles, get their

> blood glucose level. If it is high, needle the following points:

>

>

>

> PiShu/weiguanxiashu bilat

>

> UB 23 bilat

>

> Kid 3 bilat

>

>

>

> Retain needle for 30 minutes and retest their BCG. It should drop

> significantly. If you misplace pishu and needle UB 18, their BCG will rise.

> Therefore, it is important to have the correct locations.

>

> If you want to know more about this protocol, contact PCOM and ask for Dr.

> Snow's doctoral dissertation on Diabetes.

>

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

>

>

>

>

>

> Mike,

> Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

> feels any pressure pain anywhere,

> except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

> So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from

> the

> patient.

> Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

> directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

> Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

> While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

> completely, so that's his homework.

>

> The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in

> Kiiko's

> Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

> so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve

> sensation

> on the bottom of his feet.

> Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP

> 3.2,

> ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I

> wrote

> out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

> assume.

> The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

> 62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

> have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

> around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

> treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

> next treatment.

> The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the

> week

> and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

> the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

> thru-thru towards KD 1.

>

> Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

> K

>

>

[Guest guest]

Its not been my finding that in all cases, treating 'Liver' makes blood sugar

rise.When I do a full 'Kiiko' palpation of the patient, from head to toe, in

some diabetic cases, Liver reflexes are very active and demand attention - in

these cases, I presume Liver metabolism of glucose is part of the 'problem' (at

the physiologic level) and when I treat accordingly, in these cases, blood sugar

responds well.I will also add, that in addition to UB 20, in almost every

diabetic patient I have ever treated as well as any one with sugar metabolism

problems of any kind (hypoglycemic tendencies, etc), Kiiko's sugar imbalance

reflex (Hua Tuo Jia Ji of T11 and T12) is almost highly highly reactive (spastic

on palpation) and when needled directly, brings about dramatic effect.

Daniel

--- On Wed, 3/10/10, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Received: Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 8:30 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. Snow,

 

Thanks for the findings...

 

Interesting that the SP and KD back-shu points lower blood sugar levels, but

 

UB 18 (LV) can make blood glucose rise.

 

Is this an instance with wood overacting on earth, making the earth weaker?

 

As the Nei jing states... when problems with the earth, avoid the sour

 

flavor (LV).

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

> Use Kiiko's pachi-pachi e'stim with three needles on each foot with three

 

> stimulations each. The results should be immediate and profound. This

 

> treatment is even more efficacious when used with a Russian SCENAR with 60%

 

> to 100% relief on the first visit. It takes 9 to 15 treatments on average

 

> for permanent resolution of the neuropathy. They must control their blood

 

> glucose.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> To lower blood glucose levels only three points are needed. It is

 

> important to add no other points. Before inserting the needles, get their

 

> blood glucose level. If it is high, needle the following points:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> PiShu/weiguanxiashu bilat

 

>

 

> UB 23 bilat

 

>

 

> Kid 3 bilat

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Retain needle for 30 minutes and retest their BCG. It should drop

 

> significantly. If you misplace pishu and needle UB 18, their BCG will rise.

 

> Therefore, it is important to have the correct locations.

 

>

 

> If you want to know more about this protocol, contact PCOM and ask for Dr.

 

> Snow's doctoral dissertation on Diabetes.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

> Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

 

> Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Mike,

 

> Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

> feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

> except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

> So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from

 

> the

 

> patient.

 

> Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

> directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

> Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

> While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

> completely, so that's his homework.

 

>

 

> The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in

 

> Kiiko's

 

> Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

> so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve

 

> sensation

 

> on the bottom of his feet.

 

> Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP

 

> 3.2,

 

> ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I

 

> wrote

 

> out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

> assume.

 

> The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

> 62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

> have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

> around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

> treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

> next treatment.

 

> The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the

 

> week

 

> and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

> the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

> thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

>

 

> Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

> K

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Petra,

 

I would try my best to describe but it is a stagnation of qi, blood and lymph in

the inguinal area due to compression of the local tissues. A reduction or

stoppage of flow through this area can lead to many issues and likewise prevent

the normal healing process from occurring. Acupuncture is best at reducing

blockages and Kiiko's style is about promotion of flow through the common areas

of blockage. This is a style that looks at dynamics. Complete descriptions can

be found in kiiko's texts on Clinical Strategies vol 1 and 2. Hope this helps.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

petrabuchanan

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:24:43 -0800

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is neuro-vascular compression of the thigh?

 

 

 

--- On Tue, 3/9/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote:

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

 

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

Tuesday, March 9, 2010, 2:49 PM

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for most

patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues. Patients

seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the disc problems.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

 

johnkokko

 

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

 

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

 

 

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

 

 

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

 

 

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

 

 

 

patient.

 

 

 

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

 

 

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

 

 

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

 

 

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

 

 

completely, so that's his homework.

 

 

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

 

 

 

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

 

 

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

 

 

 

on the bottom of his feet.

 

 

 

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

 

 

 

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

 

 

 

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

 

 

assume.

 

 

 

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

 

 

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

 

 

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

 

 

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

 

 

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

 

 

next treatment.

 

 

 

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

 

 

 

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

 

 

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

 

 

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

 

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have a patient who had diabetic neuropathy. He was seeing me for back pain

and, of course, I also treated spleen, GB and Kidney points on his legs along

with the Ashi points on his back. When he went to his neurologist, they

determined the neuropathy was completely gone. The gentleman told the doctor

that I was responsible for his improvement. The doctor just walked around the

exam room scratching his head because, you know, acupuncture cant help with

diabetic neuropathy.

 

Lee Tritt

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Tue, March 9, 2010 5:49:09 PM

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

John,

 

Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for most

patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues. Patients

seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the disc problems.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

 

patient.

 

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

completely, so that's his homework.

 

 

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

 

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

 

on the bottom of his feet.

 

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

 

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

 

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

assume.

 

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

next treatment.

 

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

 

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

 

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

K

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That is great to hear. So I treated her for the second time on monday and she

had a really strong reaction. She started shaking strongly. So I took the

needles out and did some moxa at ST 36 and KI 3. We are going to try again next

week but with only a few needles this time. Any advice?

 

--- On Wed, 3/10/10, lee tritt <ladylee0999 wrote:

 

lee tritt <ladylee0999

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 10, 2010, 10:38 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a patient who had diabetic neuropathy. He was seeing me for back

pain and, of course, I also treated spleen, GB and Kidney points on his legs

along with the Ashi points on his back. When he went to his neurologist, they

determined the neuropathy was completely gone. The gentleman told the doctor

that I was responsible for his improvement. The doctor just walked around the

exam room scratching his head because, you know, acupuncture cant help with

diabetic neuropathy.

 

 

 

Lee Tritt

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>

 

traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

Tue, March 9, 2010 5:49:09 PM

 

RE: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

John,

 

 

 

Good to know. I was also curious if there was any need for neuro-vascular

compression of the thigh. I love this stuff and the immediate feedback for most

patients. I see a lot of pain complaints and some from disc issues. Patients

seem to be pain free for a couple of days in most cases, even the disc problems.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:47 -0800

 

Re: Diabetic neuropathy

 

 

 

Mike,

 

 

 

Yes.... this patient is the kind of guy who doesn't want to admit that he

 

 

 

feels any pressure pain anywhere,

 

 

 

except that he complains a lot about his feet neuropathy.

 

 

 

So, the oketsu and immune were tight, but no pressure pain elicited from the

 

 

 

patient.

 

 

 

Of all of the hara reflexes, adrenal (under the navel) came up, so it

 

 

 

directed me to KD 6, which halved the pins and needles sensation alone.

 

 

 

Also, LV 3 and ST 41 has been very helpful for this patient.

 

 

 

While pressing LI 4 strongly, most of the pins/needles would go away

 

 

 

completely, so that's his homework.

 

 

 

The first treatment, I tried the points for peripheral neuropathy in Kiiko's

 

 

 

Clinical Vol 2, but didn't see immediate results,

 

 

 

so I tried each point one-by-one checking and rechecking the nerve sensation

 

 

 

on the bottom of his feet.

 

 

 

Of Kiiko's treatment from pgs. 129-137 in Vol 2, I tried Ren 12, 13, SP 3.2,

 

 

 

ST Qi line, Lung 4/ 8, but these were not as effective as the points I wrote

 

 

 

out earlier. Surprisingly, ST 36 and GB 34 were not as effective as I would

 

 

 

assume.

 

 

 

The ankle fulcrum treatment was immediately effective... KD 6, ST 41 and UB

 

 

 

62, but found that UB 62 was not needed, so retained KD 6 and ST 41. I

 

 

 

have yet to try the Kiiko back treatment for peripheral neuropathy (kori

 

 

 

around UB 42, lumbar eyes, sugar points around UB 20/21), because the other

 

 

 

treatment was working so well, but it would be worthwhile to do that the

 

 

 

next treatment.

 

 

 

The second treatment I needled KD 1, which was very lasting through the week

 

 

 

and effective, but he requested that I don't needle that point because of

 

 

 

the obvious pain that can sometimes occur, so instead, I needle LV 3

 

 

 

thru-thru towards KD 1.

 

 

 

Let me know how your treatments go.. it's good to share this info,

 

 

 

K