What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr Bigg

 

Just look at how easily a terrorist was able to get on a plane and almost

blow it up.

Lets be real here and not defend what precautions might be in place.

Its so easy for abuses to slip by all the safeguards.

Do you really believe that educators, students and school owners/staff

will tell all when a site visit takes place?

If so then I guess the tooth fairy is still alive and well.

The issues I previously mentioned came UNOFFICIALLY from an AOM educator

and student.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:45:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

Dort.Bigg writes:

 

Dear Mr. Frieberg,

 

Thank you for your comments and concerns respecting AOM education.

 

The accreditation process is far more than a review of “paperwork.†It

involves a detailed assessment of a school submitted reports by Commissioner

and staff reviewers before an institution is approved for a visit – and

many programs will be denied at this stage for substandard reports that do not

sufficiently demonstrate and document compliance with the standards.

 

It also includes on-site inspections of programs by experienced teams of

site visitors to verify compliance with the standards. Annual reports,

required interim reports or monitoring reports are also means for identifying

red flags that warrant an interim or fact finding site visit to verify

institutional compliance with the standards between comprehensive

reaccreditation

reviews. And, of course, all accrediting agencies rely heavily on their

complaint processes that allows students, faculty, patients, and members of

the public to file complaints with the Commission against an accredited or

candidate program for violating ACAOM standards, policies or procedures.

These various processes were responsible for identifying problems at a number

of the Florida Schools you mentioned and led to denial or withdraw

decisions on candidacy or accreditation status to such Florida AOM programs as

the T

’Ai Institute of OM, Institute, Florida College of

Natural Health, the Florida School of Acupuncture & OM, and the Florida

Institute

of Traditional , among those that I can recall – and I am

sure there are others. I also note that for the Commission’s last three

USDE renewal of recognition reviews covering a 15-year period, ACAOM was found

to meet all of the US Secretary of Education’s Criteria for Recognition

documenting that the USDE finds that the Commission is a reliable authority

for quality AOM education. ACAOM has consistently received the USDE’s maximum

recognition renewal periods and has not been required to submit interim

reports for weaknesses relative to any of the recognition criteria.

 

If you or other persons on the TCM forum are truly interested

in improving education within the profession, I would encourage you and

your colleagues to submit your names and application materials to serve as an

ACAOM site visitor _http://www.acaom.http://www.acaomhttp_

(http://www.acaom.org/Recruitment.htm.) Not only is this a way to provide a

critical

service to the profession and AOM educational community, but there are

professional benefits to those who volunteer such as 10 NCCAOM CEU credits for

participation on each ACAOM site visit, all visitor expenses paid by ACAOM,

plus a $200/day honorarium is provided to each site visitor. It also provides

a true education on how accreditation and the peer review system works to

ensure educational quality in the US system of higher education as well as a

deeper understanding on the intricacies of AOM training.

 

Sincerely,

 

Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director

 

Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

 

Maryland Trade Center #3

 

7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760

 

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

Phone: 301-313-0855

 

FAX: 301-313-0912

 

www.acaom.org

 

This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for

Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary

and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of

the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised

that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is

strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,

please notify the sender immediately.

 

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

[_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine ) ] On

Behalf Of _acudoc11_ (acudoc11)

Friday, January 08, 2010 12:22 PM

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

Congratulations to ACAOM.

 

Yes Mr Bigg....no one was paying attention to the 20 schools in Florida

and

ACAOM did the basic job of getting rid of the obvious abusers...BUT that

was the easy part.

 

Other abuses much more covert than what you all are used to get passed the

paperwork of the " system " because what is needed is a " hunter " and you all

don't have one.

 

I learned from one of the best - Dr. Robert C Sohn. One of his brilliant

mottos was.... " if all you shoot for is the appearance of a goal....you

will

get even less than that. One must target a goal way beyond what is

envisioned. "

 

Appearances just don't get the best job accomplished.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/7/2010 11:56:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

_Dort.Bigg_ (Dort.Bigg)

<Dort.Dort.mai> writes:

 

This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to

reflect

a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary

to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as

Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which

the

accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3

practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools

and

programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving

on the

Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or

possess

any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission).

 

Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for

additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM

background. As

a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine

training

requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community.

 

No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on

how many students “flunk out†of accredited programs. Many, such as

ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data

on

graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific

accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student

enrollment,

admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification

exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition,

the

US Department of Education requires that educational institutions

receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing

satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV

regulations,

students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution

from

receiving further Title IV aid.

 

If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or

candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the

allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who

have

not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit

an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the

allegations.

Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on

the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff.

 

As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs

are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation

standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual,

interim or

monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during

designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process.

Site

visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners,

AOM

educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education,

finances,

and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do

not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically

includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi,

lesson

plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student

assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g.,

results on

course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research

papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as

well as

site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and

observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit

team prepares

a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents

instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are

achieving

the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site

visit

teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards.

When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will

 

either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to

bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission

as

verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies

and/or

follow-up site visits.

 

As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior

post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was

required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure

to

comply with the standards.

 

Sincerely,

 

Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director

 

Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

 

Maryland Trade Center #3

 

7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760

 

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

Phone: 301-313-0855

 

FAX: 301-313-0912

 

www.acaom.org

 

This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for

Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential,

proprietary

and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use

of

the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised

that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this

information is

strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,

please notify the sender immediately.

 

_Traditional_ _T<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

[_Traditiona[_Tradi<WBRTraditional_WBRTraditional_<W_Tradition

al_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

] On

Behalf Of __acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) _ac_ (_acudoc11)

<_acudoc11%_a> _ (_acudoc11_

(acudoc11)

<acudoc11%ac> )

Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM

_Traditional_ _Tra<ineine<WBR><WBR>@yahoine_

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994.

Now only six survive.

Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else?

Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to

much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting

orgs)

who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education.

And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from.

 

Biomedicine is really research.

One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM

school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic

medicine. Well...that'medicine. Well...that'<WBR>s OK....but just the

basics.

going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in

AOM.

 

I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools.

WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL?

And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students

are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia

medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

_naturaldoc1@_naturaldoc1@<WBR>nat_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_

(naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> )

<naturaldoc1natural> writes:

 

I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools

implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know

little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs

more

emphasis and input.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc

 

_Traditional_ _Tra<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine ) <Traditionalmai

lto:TrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

__acudoc11 (AT) aol (DOT) _ac_ (_acudoc11)

<_acudoc11%_a> _ (_acudoc11_

(acudoc11)

<acudoc11%ac> )

<acudoc11%ac>

Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

Simon

 

The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right

backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

_SimonBethel@_SimonBethel@<WBR_SimonBethel@SimonBe_

(SimonBethel) <SimonBethelSim> )

<SimonBethelSim> writes:

 

Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be

watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it

to a

degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change

as

long as we can come together and act! Lead the way.....

 

> _Traditional_ _Tr<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

> __zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) _zrose_ (_zrosenbe)

<_zrosenbe%_zros> _ (_zrosenbe_

(zrosenbe) <zrosenbe%zrmai> )

<zrosenbe%zrose>

> Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> Good in principle, but one major problem.

>

> For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any

drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is

easy

to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western

medicine.

>

> Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some

Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources

necessary

and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the

medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese

medicine

requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique

logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners

learning

biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so

that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly

biomedicalized.

>

>

> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote:

>

> >

> > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western

Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it

and work

with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean

we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual.

One

foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and

that

we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new.

> >

> > And we don't get hung up on one or the other!

> >

> > Simon

> >

> >

> >

> > _Traditional_ _Tr<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

> > __subincor (AT) (DOT) _su_ (_subincor)

<_subincor%_sub> _ (_subincor_

(subincor) <subincor%subi> )

<subincor%subi>

> > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Mike:

> >

> > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not

sure i am reading you right:

> >

> > --Mike-

> > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

> > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

> > knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> > ---

> >

> > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no

western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for

expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM

to its

full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the

solution is not " tack some western medicine on " .

> >

> > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained

counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

> >

> > " In

> > recent years, the unique characteristics of

> > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

> > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

> > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

> > severe crisis and chaotic actions.

> > Underneath

> > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

> > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

> > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

> > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

> > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰

> >

> > Lü

> > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

> > Administration, July 1991

> > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and

India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and

integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical

results:

poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine,

yet

have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough

to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who

don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe

don't

even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere

along the line a grievous error was committed.

> > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ ____ ____

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > __http://middlemedicihttp://middlemedh_

(http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_) <_http://middlemedicihttp://middlemed_

(http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_) >

(_http://middlemedicihttp://middlehttp_

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) )

> > __http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemehttp://www_)

<_http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemehttp:/www_) >

(_http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) )

> >

> > ____________ ________ ________ _

> > mike Bowser <_naturaldoc1@_naturaldoc1@

(_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1)

<naturaldoc1natumai> ) <naturaldoc1natural> >

> > _traditional_ _tr<WBRtraditional_WBRtr

(_traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_

(Chinese Traditional Medicine )

<traditionaltrma

ilto:trtraditimai> )

<traditionaltraditiontrtra>

> > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

> > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think

that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding

of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained

counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > _Traditional_ _Tradit<WBRTraditional_WBRTradit

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

> > __zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) _za_ (_zaranski)

<_zaranski%_zamai> _ (_zaranski_

(zaranski) <zaranski%zarmai> )

<zaranski%zarans>

> > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still

have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a

wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM.

Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and

evidently

neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

> >

> > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ They a

> >

> > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM

in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese

names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They

tell

their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they

said

my Qi was stuck. "

> >

> > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their

problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that

which

could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

> >

> > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more

help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their

pain medication. whoopee!

> >

> > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and

peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will

change.

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> > --- In _Traditional_ --- In <WBRTraditional_WBRTradit

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra> , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor@..s> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't

 

 

agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of

calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of

the

article which I just read:

> >>

> >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others

will

> >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> >> ---

> >>

> >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important,

 

 

but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if

what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow,

that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and

what

I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and

differentials for my purposes.

> >>

> >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our

concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the

circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our

concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is

unavoidable

that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all,

are based on repeated, tested, observations.

> >>

> >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they

patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part

*because*

of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine

metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

> >>

> >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to

retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and

the

other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is

present.

> >>

> >> Thanks,

> >> Hugo

> >>

> >>

> >> ____________ ____ ____

> >> Hugo Ramiro

> >> __http://middlemedicihttp://middlemedh_

(http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_) <_http://middlemedicihttp://middlemed_

(http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_) >

(_http://middlemedicihttp://middlehttp_

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) )

> >> __http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemehttp://www_)

<_http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemehttp:/www_) >

(_http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) )

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> ____________ ____ ____

> >> <zrosenbe@..z>

> >> _Traditional_ _Tr<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

> >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>

> >> Hugo,

> >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will

was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how

dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

> >>

> >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If

we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine,

and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession

 

 

will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the

theory,

the herbs, or the moxa.

> >>

> >>

> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> >>>

> >>> --Andrea Beth-

> >>>

> >>> We are not of unified opinion on:

> >>> " medical " acupuncturists

> >>> the FPD

> >>> what to call ourselves

> >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion

for

> >>> our public identity...

> >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our

livelihood

> >>> ---

> >>>

> >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one

thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> >>>

> >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> >>>

> >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " Do we a

feel confused when we think " damp " ?

> >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we

*clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language "

description

from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally)

" red skin many shapes " .

> >>>

> >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up

our " archaic " language because...there'our " archaic " language bec

that

we'd rather use?!

> >>>

> >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> >>>

> >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from

phrenology by the way)

> >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying

to be specific.

> >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private- Idiopathic Neuralgia -

Com

> >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is

*spooky*, people, *spooky*)

> >>>

> >>> I hope I amuse you guys.

> >>>

> >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a

profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it,

you

don't get it (the degree / certification)don't get it (the degree /

certificatio

that,

a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their

attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided

very effectively, from my p.o.v.

> >>>

> >>> Happy 2010 everyone!

> >>> Hugo

> >>>

> >>> ____________ ____ ____

> >>> Hugo Ramiro

> >>> __http://middlemedicihttp://middlemedh_

(http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_) <_http://middlemedicihttp://middlemed_

(http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_) >

(_http://middlemedicihttp://middlehttp_

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) )

> >>> __http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemehttp://www_)

<_http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemehttp:/www_) >

(_http://www.middlemehttp://www._ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) )

> >>>

> >>> ____________ ____ ____

> >>> <@..a>

> >>> _Traditional_ _Tr<WBRTraditional_WBRTr

(_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> )

<TraditionalTraditionTrTra>

> >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>>

> >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then

the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak

for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I

live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without

the

FPD.

> >>>

> >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of

the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an

acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and

not

also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only

" doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists,

all have

differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on

anything, if we are not trained equally?

> >>>

> >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing

these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets

needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds

these problems.

> >>>

> >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed

these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to

hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working?

> >>>

> >>> Thank you,

> >>> Andrea Beth

> >>> , L.Ac.

> >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> >>> 635 S. 10th St.

> >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> >>> (928) 274-1373

> >>>

> >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>>

> >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> >>>

> >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It

makes

no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our

profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> >>>>

> >>>> Laura

> >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will

Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that

Acupuncture

gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in

the

media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show

contestent.

> >>>

> >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low

price models appealing to corporations and government, that

community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our

traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic

and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we

must

develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> >>>

> >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental

Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students.

However,

He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents

those

who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His

retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> >>>

> >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to

treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where

a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b)

practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and

the

compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> >>>

> >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools

more money...these are the steps to success???

> >>>

> >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent

livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine

will

agree that Will's vision is their own.

> >>>

> >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals

(you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who

have no

other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other

arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically

avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider.

> >>>

> >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take

responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices.

> >>>

> >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance

reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients

pay cash,

check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective,

gentle

treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous

drugs

(with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> >>>

> >>> Mark Z

> >>>

> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >>>

> >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

Times __http://www.chinesemh_ (http://www.chinesem_/)

(_http://www.chinesemh_ (http://www.chinesem/) ) edicinetimes. com

> >>>

> >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

medicine and acupuncture, click, __http://www.chinesemh_

(http://www.chinesem_/)

(_http://www.chinesemh_ (http://www.chinesem/) ) edicinetimes.

com/wiki/

CMTpedia

> >>>

> >>> To change your email delivery settings, click, __http://groups.h_

(http://groups._/)

(_http://groups.h_ (http://groups./) )

/ group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust

accordingly.

> >>>

> >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group requires prior permission from the author.

> >>>

> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary. Groups Links

> >>>

> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>

> >>>

[Guest guest]

Mr Bigg

 

Thanks for the general information but I think I have done more good for

the profession just where I am. I know that for a fact in Florida.

 

Since you brought up the NCCAOM I believe a LOT more cleaning up needs to

be done.

 

The MD I spoke about earlier........like many before and some after.....

were " given " credential document reviews enabling them to circumvent the

process and get licensed when the individuals did not fulfill the

requirements.

 

For me after renewing Diplomate Ac status ONE time....I threw it away and

would never renew.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:45:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

Dort.Bigg writes:

 

If you or other persons on the TCM forum are truly interested

in improving education within the profession, I would encourage you and

your colleagues to submit your names and application materials to serve as an

ACAOM site visitor _http://www.acaom.http://www.acaomhttp_

(http://www.acaom.org/Recruitment.htm.) Not only is this a way to provide a

critical

service to the profession and AOM educational community, but there are

professional benefits to those who volunteer such as 10 NCCAOM CEU credits for

participation on each ACAOM site visit, all visitor expenses paid by ACAOM,

plus a $200/day honorarium is provided to each site visitor. It also provides

a true education on how accreditation and the peer review system works to

ensure educational quality in the US system of higher education as well as a

deeper understanding on the intricacies of AOM training.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are you referring to the same incompetent government that allows

terrorists to get on planes?

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:45:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

Dort.Bigg writes:

 

I also note that for the Commission’s last three USDE renewal of

recognition reviews covering a 15-year period, ACAOM was found to meet all of

the US

Secretary of Education’s Criteria for Recognition documenting that the

USDE finds that the Commission is a reliable authority for quality AOM

education.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted model

of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not setting

curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process in place

to know how well they are doing.

 

As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has done this

to us but our own profession that considered the professional future and made

these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:31:34 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example..... ALL DCs are licensed under one license which varies from

 

state to state.

 

Nothing is settled identically.

 

This is what the medical profession (those who run it) continue to wish for

 

all other healthcare professions.

 

Keep them divided so they fight within.

 

And how they do that is create adversarial positions.

 

It doesn't matter where from or what about.

 

Get just a few practitioners to follow those talking points and you got

 

yourself a battle.

 

What makes anyone believe that that is not what is happening right now.

 

As suggested before.....Zev Rosenberg and Ken Rose are examples of

 

logically thinkers and well rounded practitioners.

 

These are the kind of commissioners who should be leading the direction of

 

education.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 9:10:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

acudoc11 writes:

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

 

Appears that it is no different in Chiropractic medicine.

 

Different schools of thought at different schools resulting in different

 

practitioners believing different techniques.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 6:45:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) writes:

 

 

 

Richard,

 

 

 

Yes variability is a problem but you must include the greatest variable

 

into this mix, the OM education, which largely determines an education. As

 

one that has attended a well known program and worked in two others, I can

 

tell you that this variability is much more then it should be. I expect

 

some but with this much it is like we have separate professions depending

 

upon

 

your training.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Frieberg,

 

 

 

Thank you for your comments and concerns respecting AOM education.

 

 

 

The accreditation process is far more than a review of “paperwork.†It

involves a detailed assessment of a school submitted reports by Commissioner and

staff reviewers before an institution is approved for a visit – and many

programs will be denied at this stage for substandard reports that do not

sufficiently demonstrate and document compliance with the standards.

 

 

 

It also includes on-site inspections of programs by experienced teams of site

visitors to verify compliance with the standards. Annual reports, required

interim reports or monitoring reports are also means for identifying red flags

that warrant an interim or fact finding site visit to verify institutional

compliance with the standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews.

And, of course, all accrediting agencies rely heavily on their complaint

processes that allows students, faculty, patients, and members of the public to

file complaints with the Commission against an accredited or candidate program

for violating ACAOM standards, policies or procedures. These various processes

were responsible for identifying problems at a number of the Florida Schools you

mentioned and led to denial or withdraw decisions on candidacy or accreditation

status to such Florida AOM programs as the T’Ai Institute of OM, Chinese

Medicine Institute, Florida College of Natural Health, the Florida School of

Acupuncture & OM, and the Florida Institute of Traditional ,

among those that I can recall – and I am sure there are others. I also note

that for the Commission’s last three USDE renewal of recognition reviews

covering a 15-year period, ACAOM was found to meet all of the US Secretary of

Education’s Criteria for Recognition documenting that the USDE finds that the

Commission is a reliable authority for quality AOM education. ACAOM has

consistently received the USDE’s maximum recognition renewal periods and has

not been required to submit interim reports for weaknesses relative to any of

the recognition criteria.

 

 

 

If you or other persons on the TCM forum are truly interested in

improving education within the profession, I would encourage you and your

colleagues to submit your names and application materials to serve as an ACAOM

site visitor http://www.acaom.org/Recruitment.htm. Not only is this a way to

provide a critical service to the profession and AOM educational community, but

there are professional benefits to those who volunteer such as 10 NCCAOM CEU

credits for participation on each ACAOM site visit, all visitor expenses paid by

ACAOM, plus a $200/day honorarium is provided to each site visitor. It also

provides a true education on how accreditation and the peer review system works

to ensure educational quality in the US system of higher education as well as a

deeper understanding on the intricacies of AOM training.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

 

Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director

 

Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

 

Maryland Trade Center #3

 

7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760

 

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

Phone: 301-313-0855

 

FAX: 301-313-0912

 

www.acaom.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture

& Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary and/or

privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the

planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any

disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is strictly

prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the

sender immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

acudoc11

Friday, January 08, 2010 12:22 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

Congratulations to ACAOM.

 

Yes Mr Bigg....no one was paying attention to the 20 schools in Florida and

ACAOM did the basic job of getting rid of the obvious abusers...BUT that

was the easy part.

 

Other abuses much more covert than what you all are used to get passed the

paperwork of the " system " because what is needed is a " hunter " and you all

don't have one.

 

I learned from one of the best - Dr. Robert C Sohn. One of his brilliant

mottos was.... " if all you shoot for is the appearance of a goal....you will

get even less than that. One must target a goal way beyond what is

envisioned. "

 

Appearances just don't get the best job accomplished.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/7/2010 11:56:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

Dort.Bigg <Dort.Bigg%40acaom.org> writes:

 

This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to reflect

a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary

to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as

Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which the

accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3

practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools and

programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving on the

Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or possess

any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission).

 

Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for

additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM background.

As

a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine training

requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community.

 

No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on

how many students “flunk out†of accredited programs. Many, such as

ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data on

graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific

accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student

enrollment,

admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification

exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition, the

US Department of Education requires that educational institutions

receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing

satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV regulations,

students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution from

receiving further Title IV aid.

 

If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or

candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the

allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who have

not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit

an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the allegations.

Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on

the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff.

 

As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs

are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation

standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual, interim

or

monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during

designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process. Site

visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners, AOM

educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education, finances,

and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do

not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically

includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi, lesson

plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student

assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g., results on

course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research

papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as well as

site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and

observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit team

prepares

a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents

instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are achieving

the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site visit

teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards.

When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will

either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to

bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission as

verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies and/or

follow-up site visits.

 

As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior

post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was

required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure to

comply with the standards.

 

Sincerely,

 

Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director

 

Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine

 

Maryland Trade Center #3

 

7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760

 

Greenbelt, MD 20770

 

Phone: 301-313-0855

 

FAX: 301-313-0912

 

www.acaom.org

 

This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for

Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary

and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of

the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised

that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is

strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,

please notify the sender immediately.

 

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

[_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> ) ] On

Behalf Of _acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu> _

(acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com> )

Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM

_Traditional_Traditional_<ineine<WBR>@yahoine_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994.

Now only six survive.

Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else?

Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to

much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting

orgs)

who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education.

And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from.

 

Biomedicine is really research.

One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM

school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic

medicine. Well...that'medicine. Well...that'<WBR>s OK....but just the

basics.

going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in

AOM.

 

I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools.

WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL?

And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students

are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia

medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1

<naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> )

<naturaldoc1natumai> writes:

 

I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools

implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know

little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs

more

emphasis and input.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc

 

_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

_acudoc11 <_acudoc11%40aol.acu> _ (acudoc11

<acudoc11%40aol.com> )

<acudoc11%ac>

Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

Simon

 

The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right

backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

_SimonBethel@SimonBe_ (SimonBethel <SimonBethel%40msn.com>

)

<SimonBethelSim> writes:

 

Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be

watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it

to a

degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change

as

long as we can come together and act! Lead the way.....

 

> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

> _zrosenbe <_zrosenbe%40san.zrosen> _

(zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com> )

<zrosenbe%zrmai>

> Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> Good in principle, but one major problem.

>

> For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any

drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is

easy

to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western

medicine.

>

> Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some

Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources

necessary

and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the

medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese

medicine

requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique

logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners

learning

biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so

that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly

biomedicalized.

>

>

> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote:

>

> >

> > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western

Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it

and work

with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean

we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual.

One

foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and

that

we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new.

> >

> > And we don't get hung up on one or the other!

> >

> > Simon

> >

> >

> >

> > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

> > _subincor <_subincor%40.sub> _

(subincor <subincor%40> )

<subincor%subi>

> > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Mike:

> >

> > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not

sure i am reading you right:

> >

> > --Mike-

> > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

> > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

> > knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> > ---

> >

> > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no

western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for

expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM

to its

full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the

solution is not " tack some western medicine on " .

> >

> > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained

counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

> >

> > " In

> > recent years, the unique characteristics of

> > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

> > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

> > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

> > severe crisis and chaotic actions.

> > Underneath

> > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

> > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

> > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

> > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

> > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰

> >

> > Lü

> > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

> > Administration, July 1991

> > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and

India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and

integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical

results:

poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine,

yet

have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough

to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who

don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe

don't

even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere

along the line a grievous error was committed.

> > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ ____ ____

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ <http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_>

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/)

> > _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ <http://www.middlemehttp:/www_>

(http://www.middlemedicine.org/)

> >

> > ____________ ________ ________ _

> > mike Bowser <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_

(naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> )

<naturaldoc1natumai> >

> > _traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_

(Chinese Traditional Medicine

<Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> )

<traditionaltrtrtraditimai>

> > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

> > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think

that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding

of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained

counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

> > _zaranski <_zaranski%40verizon.zar> _

(zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net> )

<zaranski%zarmai>

> > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still

have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a

wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM.

Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and

evidently

neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

> >

> > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ They a

> >

> > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM

in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese

names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They

tell

their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they

said

my Qi was stuck. "

> >

> > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their

problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that

which

could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

> >

> > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more

help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their

pain medication. whoopee!

> >

> > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and

peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will

change.

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor@..s> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't

 

agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of

calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of

the

article which I just read:

> >>

> >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others

will

> >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> >> ---

> >>

> >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important,

 

but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if

what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow,

that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and

what

I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and

differentials for my purposes.

> >>

> >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our

concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the

circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our

concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is

unavoidable

that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all,

are based on repeated, tested, observations.

> >>

> >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they

patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part

*because*

of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine

metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

> >>

> >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to

retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and

the

other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is

present.

> >>

> >> Thanks,

> >> Hugo

> >>

> >>

> >> ____________ ____ ____

> >> Hugo Ramiro

> >> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ <http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_>

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/)

> >> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ <http://www.middlemehttp:/www_>

(http://www.middlemedicine.org/)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> ____________ ____ ____

> >> <zrosenbe@..z>

> >> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

> >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>

> >> Hugo,

> >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will

was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how

dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

> >>

> >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If

we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine,

and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession

 

will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the

theory,

the herbs, or the moxa.

> >>

> >>

> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >>

> >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> >>>

> >>> --Andrea Beth-

> >>>

> >>> We are not of unified opinion on:

> >>> " medical " acupuncturists

> >>> the FPD

> >>> what to call ourselves

> >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion

for

> >>> our public identity...

> >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our

livelihood

> >>> ---

> >>>

> >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one

thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> >>>

> >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> >>>

> >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " Do we a

feel confused when we think " damp " ?

> >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we

*clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language "

description

from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally)

" red skin many shapes " .

> >>>

> >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up

our " archaic " language because...there'our " archaic " language because

that

we'd rather use?!

> >>>

> >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> >>>

> >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from

phrenology by the way)

> >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying

to be specific.

> >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private- Idiopathic Neuralgia -

Com

> >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is

*spooky*, people, *spooky*)

> >>>

> >>> I hope I amuse you guys.

> >>>

> >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a

profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it,

you

don't get it (the degree / certification)don't get it (the degree / certific

that,

a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their

attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided

very effectively, from my p.o.v.

> >>>

> >>> Happy 2010 everyone!

> >>> Hugo

> >>>

> >>> ____________ ____ ____

> >>> Hugo Ramiro

> >>> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_

<http://middlemedicihttp:/middlehtt_>

(http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/)

> >>> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ <http://www.middlemehttp:/www_>

(http://www.middlemedicine.org/)

> >>>

> >>> ____________ ____ ____

> >>> <@..a>

> >>> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_

(Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> )

<TraditionalTrTrTraditimai>

> >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>>

> >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then

the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak

for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I

live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without

the

FPD.

> >>>

> >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of

the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an

acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and

not

also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only

" doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists,

all have

differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on

anything, if we are not trained equally?

> >>>

> >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing

these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets

needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds

these problems.

> >>>

> >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed

these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to

hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working?

> >>>

> >>> Thank you,

> >>> Andrea Beth

> >>>

> >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> >>> 635 S. 10th St.

> >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> >>> (928) 274-1373

> >>>

> >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >>>

> >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> >>>

> >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It

makes

no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our

profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> >>>>

> >>>> Laura

> >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will

Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that

Acupuncture

gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in

the

media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show

contestent.

> >>>

> >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low

price models appealing to corporations and government, that

community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our

traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic

and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we

must

develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> >>>

> >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental

Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students.

However,

He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents

those

who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His

retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> >>>

> >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to

treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where

a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b)

practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and

the

compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> >>>

> >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools

more money...these are the steps to success???

> >>>

> >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent

livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine

will

agree that Will's vision is their own.

> >>>

> >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals

(you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who

have no

other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other

arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically

avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider.

> >>>

> >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take

responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices.

> >>>

> >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance

reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients

pay cash,

check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective,

gentle

treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous

drugs

(with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> >>>

> >>> Mark Z

> >>>

> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >>>

> >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

Times _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com

> >>>

> >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese

medicine and acupuncture, click, _http://www.chinesem_

(http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes.

com/wiki/

CMTpedia

> >>>

> >>> _http://groups._

(http://groups./)

/ group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust

accordingly.

> >>>

> >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group requires prior permission from the author.

> >>>

> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if

absolutely necessary.

[Guest guest]

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no way

for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need to cut

them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to contribute in

a positive way and become part of the solution. I have previously contacted the

NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues. Maybe you should rethink helping

ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:53:56 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are 1000% correct.

 

 

 

I do not believe the long tales that those who control the medical

 

profession are not behind this.

 

 

 

That's what makes me suspect. Either they are part of the problem OR just

 

plain n\ignorant.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:12:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

 

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted

 

model of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not

 

setting curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process

 

in place to know how well they are doing.

 

 

 

As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has

 

done this to us but our own profession that considered the professional future

 

and made these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Where is your proof about AMA behind this?

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:53:56 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are 1000% correct.

 

 

 

I do not believe the long tales that those who control the medical

 

profession are not behind this.

 

 

 

That's what makes me suspect. Either they are part of the problem OR just

 

plain n\ignorant.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:12:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

 

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted

 

model of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not

 

setting curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process

 

in place to know how well they are doing.

 

 

 

As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has

 

done this to us but our own profession that considered the professional future

 

and made these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael

 

You got a long way and time of volunteering and contributing to come close to my

efforts and accomplishments both nationally and in Florida.

 

Keeping these organizations on the path takes a lot of work even from the

outside and there is still a long way to go.

 

No slack is deserved or necessary if these orgs resist the influence from

special interests.

 

Appears you are just starting out on the journey of helping.

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no way

for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need to cut

them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to contribute in

a positive way and become part of the solution. I have previously contacted the

NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues. Maybe you should rethink helping

ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sat, Jan 9, 2010 12:08 pm

RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no way

for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need to cut

them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to contribute in

a positive way and become part of the solution. I have previously contacted the

NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues. Maybe you should rethink helping

ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:53:56 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are 1000% correct.

 

 

 

I do not believe the long tales that those who control the medical

 

profession are not behind this.

 

 

 

That's what makes me suspect. Either they are part of the problem OR just

 

plain n\ignorant.

 

 

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:12:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

 

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

 

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted

 

model of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not

 

setting curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process

 

in place to know how well they are doing.

 

 

 

As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has

 

done this to us but our own profession that considered the professional future

 

and made these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

This is so well said!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thanks so much for your voice!!!

 

Sincerely,

 

TruthSayer, LAc.

 

PS. Mark, thanks as well.

In a message dated 1/5/10 5:27:55 AM, zaranski writes:

 

 

> New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still

> have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a

> wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM.

> Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently

> neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

>

> They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ Th

>

> Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in

> their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names,

> and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their

> friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my

> Qi was stuck. "

>

> Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their

> problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which

could

> not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

>

> If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help

> than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain

> medication. whoopee!

>

> If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples

> lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change.

>

> Mark Z

>

> Traditional_Traditional_<wbrTraditional_Tra, Hugo Ramiro <

> subincor@..s> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't

> agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of

> calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the

> article which I just read:

> >

> > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will

> > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> > ---

> >

> > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important,

> but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if

> what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that

> fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I

> do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials

> for my purposes.

> >

> > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our

> concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the

> circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our

concepts

> which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable

> that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are

> based on repeated, tested, observations.

> >

> > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients,

> representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of

> our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine

> metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

> >

> > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to re

> tain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the

> other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is

> present.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Hugo

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

TruthSayer, L.Ac,Dip.OM, LMFT

Diplomate in Oriental Medicine(NCCAOM)

Acupuncture . Herbs . Psychotherapy

Transcendental Acupuncture

2275 Market Street #C San Francisco, CA 94114

820 Fifth Avenue #C San Rafael CA 94901

415-686-1193

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Coming from the other side of the pond we certainly have issues here. I

was however completely surprised after channel hoping on the TV. I

accidently switched to our UK channel which records parliamentary events

and committee proceedings. I heard the word acupuncture and started to

watch. A parliamentary committee was arguing the toss with regards how is it

possible to assess the effectiveness of alternative medicine in the

National Health Service? We have an organization over here called NICE

(The National Institute for Clinical Excellence, now there is double speak

for you), that lays down the national clinical guidelines for the use of

medication and treatment in the National Health Service. Anyway the learned

doctors on the committee had really armed themselves with the right and

proper arguments regarding the difficulties of testing and assessing

results in clinical trials on acupuncture and how the procedures that NICE

uses would be inappropriate . They knew the differences between our

holistic approach and the more simplified WM approach, and why trials were

not reflecting the true nature of traditional acupuncture They were

wonderfully supportive, whilst those that were asking the questions, the not

so learned doctors and MPs who really from our point of view were obviously

most uneducated regarding our form of medicine and the differences between

medical models. I came away from this thinking we really as a profession,

need to get our act together regarding some sort of big program of

education for doctors so that they truly can understand what the issues

are. Without this we are on a hiding to nothing. It would seem there are

WM experts who have genuinely taken the trouble to understand what is going

on, whilst the ordinary physicians have absolutely no idea what they are

talking about. Maybe its down to us to change this. My problem is that I

am too shy to try and we are perhaps too disparate in location to be able

to get together to do this. I know this should be down to our professional

bodies but personally I can't see much headway from them at the moment.

Certainly in my locality the only support I get from the medical profession

is the very few who realise that we are getting results with patients. Most

just use the generic word which means nothing, 'placebo' . I ask you how

scientific is 'Placebo' when its at home, Its like saying one is suffering

from a disease called 'old age' , but that is another matter. I must stop

my ramblings here. I think instead of a top down approach to educating for

the WM professionals we need support in some way from our professional

organizations' to provide education for our 'local' WM professionals. THEN

and only THEN are we going to see change.

 

Helene

 

 

1.1. Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Posted by: " mike Bowser " naturaldoc1 mkbwsr

Sat Jan 9, 2010 9:09 am ((PST))

 

 

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no

way for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need

to cut them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to

contribute in a positive way and become part of the solution. I have

previously contacted the NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues.

Maybe you should rethink helping ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a

better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike:

 

From my research you are absolutely correct. ACAOM doe not create a curriculum,

they review what is proposed and evaluate whether it meets certain standards and

objectives. The curriculum construction can go in many ways, I for one think the

DAOM degree emphasized too much in one way and really lacks in the practice of

Acupuncture, its a narrow view of Acupuncture. And it will be very difficult if

impossible to change it in a meaningful way.

 

I think as practitioners we need to find a way to limit the influence of AAAOM

and other interest groups, they need to follow our direction, not there own

interests or the interests of a few people who exert their view, if not we will

follow the direction that has been set.

 

Regards

 

 

 

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted model of

education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not setting curriculum

per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process in place to know how

well they are doing.

[Guest guest]

I don't attempt to undertake.

I act.

That's the difference between us.

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/11/2010 7:57:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

 

Richard,

 

 

 

I have no doubt that you have undertaken attempts to make change but

egotistical comparisons are not helpful here. You have also made mistakes.

Some issues you mention you may be correct in observing but others, you appear

offbase. I do not like all that our organizations has done either (on

some of these issues we agree) but when we consider that things have been

worse, I see the changes as a progression that is in flux. Refusal to engage

in the process on some level, is really part of our professional issue as is

refusal of organizations and schools to listen. I will continue to

contribute as best I can and in my own capacity and would hope that others will

as well. It is easy to complain, I do this as well, but far harder to

actually help make needed changes.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Richard,

 

 

 

I have no doubt that you have undertaken attempts to make change but egotistical

comparisons are not helpful here. You have also made mistakes. Some issues you

mention you may be correct in observing but others, you appear offbase. I do

not like all that our organizations has done either (on some of these issues we

agree) but when we consider that things have been worse, I see the changes as a

progression that is in flux. Refusal to engage in the process on some level, is

really part of our professional issue as is refusal of organizations and schools

to listen. I will continue to contribute as best I can and in my own capacity

and would hope that others will as well. It is easy to complain, I do this as

well, but far harder to actually help make needed changes.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Sat, 9 Jan 2010 15:01:39 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael

 

You got a long way and time of volunteering and contributing to come close to my

efforts and accomplishments both nationally and in Florida.

 

Keeping these organizations on the path takes a lot of work even from the

outside and there is still a long way to go.

 

No slack is deserved or necessary if these orgs resist the influence from

special interests.

 

Appears you are just starting out on the journey of helping.

 

Richard

 

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no way

for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need to cut

them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to contribute in

a positive way and become part of the solution. I have previously contacted the

NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues. Maybe you should rethink helping

ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Sat, Jan 9, 2010 12:08 pm

RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

Richard,

 

It sounds like more then simple skepticism here. It sounds like there is no way

for ACAOM to come anywhere close to your expectations. I think we need to cut

them some slack and like Mr. Bigg has eluded, maybe it is time to contribute in

a positive way and become part of the solution. I have previously contacted the

NCCAOM to help them with some of their issues. Maybe you should rethink helping

ACAOM with theirs. That would make for a better profession.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 8 Jan 2010 16:53:56 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

 

You are 1000% correct.

 

I do not believe the long tales that those who control the medical

 

profession are not behind this.

 

That's what makes me suspect. Either they are part of the problem OR just

 

plain n\ignorant.

 

Richard

 

In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:12:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

 

naturaldoc1 writes:

 

No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation

 

standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted

 

model of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not

 

setting curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process

 

in place to know how well they are doing.

 

As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has

 

done this to us but our own profession that considered the professional future

 

and made these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc