What&#039;s in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <zrosenbe@>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > Hugo,

> > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was

recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated

he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

> >

> > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we

innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that

what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away

eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the

moxa.

> >

> > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> > >

> > > --Andrea Beth-

> > >

> > > We are not of unified opinion on:

> > > " medical " acupuncturists

> > > the FPD

> > > what to call ourselves

> > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for

> > > our public identity...

> > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood

> > > ---

> > >

> > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing

only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> > >

> > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> > >

> > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel

confused when we think " damp " ?

> > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly*

understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a

language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin

many shapes " .

> > >

> > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our

" archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd

rather use?!

> > >

> > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> > >

> > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology

by the way)

> > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be

specific.

> > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain.

> > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*,

people, *spooky*)

> > >

> > > I hope I amuse you guys.

> > >

> > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession

is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it

(the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our

problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause

them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from

my p.o.v.

> > >

> > > Happy 2010 everyone!

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > <@>

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > >

> > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the

military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live

has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD.

> > >

> > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the

United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture

statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal

medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice

acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing

educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are

not trained equally?

> > >

> > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these

issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to

defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems.

> > >

> > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these

issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them.

What has been useful, and how is it working?

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > > Andrea Beth

> > >

> > > Traditional Oriental Medicine

> > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> > > 635 S. 10th St.

> > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> > > (928) 274-1373

> > >

> > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> > >

> > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > >

> > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> > >

> > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no

business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> > > >

> > > > Laura

> > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The

Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained

recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at

least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent.

> > >

> > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price

models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must

be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop

specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> > >

> > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine,

influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a

private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his

future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of

what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> > >

> > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat

people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are

thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are

happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they

receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> > >

> > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more

money...these are the steps to success???

> > >

> > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings

practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that

Will's vision is their own.

> > >

> > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you

remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other

health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements

(private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County

Hospital and chose their own provider.

> > >

> > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility

for themselves, their families, and their choices.

> > >

> > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of

any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check,

visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments

with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad

" side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> > >

> > > Mark Z

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com

> > >

> > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia

> > >

> > > http://groups. /

group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly.

> > >

> > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

January 5, 2010

Wow, that's a fantastic approach, Mark. Great ideas. I can see that you have

great business sense and are applying it in many ways that I have not, eg:

hiring staff so that you can focus on the medicine and the shirts/testimonials

etc. Very cool.

The things is, in a world where we don't yet have that much competition from

others who are accepting " the going rate " , you can increase what you charge and

still keep your patients. And even if we reach a point like i describe where we

are fully integrated into the mainstream (which, BTW, is not something I look

forward to, but accept as inevitable) you may still keep your clients and

maintain your practice because you have a full caseload devoted to you. But new

practitioners will not be able to leave school and start a practice and build a

caseload AND charge what they deserve to make in a world where we have tons of

competition from acupuncturists who are charging what we can get with a masters

level medicine. I too have a busy practice with a waiting list, but if

mainstream is as inevitable as I think it is, I want us to make as much as we

deserve when we reach that point. Yeah, my caseload will be loyal to me, but I

am thinking of the bigger picture--of the profession as a whole. This

profession will not thrive if we are not paid what we deserve. And we deserve

as much if not more as any MD out there.

And, yes, I do think that EVERYONE will respect us more if we have a doctorate.

People are very swayed by that kind of thing. All the things that you do to

market yourself would become unnecessary, for example. As I said, i don't look

forward to us becoming more mainstream, but I think its inevitable. We may as

well do what it takes to put ourselves in the best position possible.

Laura

Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski

wrote:

>

> Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@>

wrote:

>

> And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to

practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are

already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get

the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate

level degree we will all benefit.

> >

> > Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the

responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage

therapists? (no offense to massage therapists)

>

> Where to start? There are massage therapists charging $30 for full hour

massages in my town, and they can get you in right away! My two massage

therapists charge $50 for half an hour, and don't have an opening available for

weeks.

>

> If everybody has the same product and the same service to back it up, the most

conveniently located will get the most business, and the low price leader will

get the next biggest share.

>

> Our work is not quite like that!

>

> Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical

doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do

you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in

it because you are called Doctor?

>

> a) What do you charge now per treatment? b) What would you like to charge?

c) What do you think people SHOULD pay for your services?

>

> I suggest you raise your prices to either b or c, work hard, do a good job and

be happy that you can help people. If you are good at it you will get plenty of

opportunities and the more you help the more will come for help.

>

> Mark Z

>

> Sidenote, funny story:

> A couple started care at our Clinic. They both went thru our 4 visit

evaluation period and each improved. They came to me and explained that because

of their financial situation they had decided to seek care closer to home with a

chiropractor who needles and who would accept their insurance plus a minor

co-pay. I explained that all things are not equal, that they would always be

welcome at our Clinic, and wished them luck.

>

> Their progress slowed, then stopped, some symptoms returned, some signs

strengthened, but his neck felt better.

>

> They returned. They said " can't you tell my Doc where to put the needles? "

>

> I explained that would only work for a short time, and that the only true hope

for their Doc was a proper education. They bought more herbs, refined their

understanding of their diets and went back to their DC. I still to this day

answer email questions from them, and their conditions are better, but certainly

not resolved. They are happy to be better, and satisfied with their compromise.

>

> These two are the exception. Most our Client's DEMAND the full benefits of CM

because they are Sick & Tired of feling sick and being tired, and having the

only remedy be " more drugs " .

>

> Our Clients show-up for their recommended treatments, follow their recommeded

diets, take their herbs, do their stretches and gleefully anticipate their next

re-eval (every 8 treatments) where we chart their progress and set goals for the

next.

>

> Upon exceeding 60% recovery (100% being truly healthy) they have the

opportunity to receive an embroidered tennis/polo-style shirt (exactly like

those worn by our staff at outside events and in the Clinic on Thursdays) in

exchange for writing a testimonial and providing 5 people with whom to share

(via snailmail) that testimonial (which is accompanyed by a coupon for a free

exam and an invitation to the Clinic). Most Clients are thrilled to

participate, and proud to wear their shirts (which usually leads to

opportunities to share their experience with those who inquire about the shirt).

>

January 5, 2010

Richard,

I think you might be wrong on this. I have known many a Chinese practitioner in

CA and MN, both teaching and in clinical practices, that have an expanded

knowledge base into both sides of this coin. They are much more respected as a

result of this education. These practitioners are both knowledgeable and

compassionate about our medicine.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:10:30 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Double check your theory. The majority of those practitioners were MDs who

never believed in AOM and only because they were tired of working for

$5/hour in blood banks did they see the opportunity to try to regain sort-of-MD

status through this night-trade-school cottage industry business...first as

so-called teachers.

Some who were really qualified .....did and do get their MD licenses.....

but then these individuals are generally not the slightest bit interested

in AOM.

Richard

In a message dated 1/5/2010 11:04:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

No. Try the many Asian practitioners that are in clinical practice or

teach at our many OM schools. They tend to have a deeper understanding of

both and in some cases, some of them actually do get their medical license.

If you are suggesting the belief in neuro vascular node theory, then

probably not too many that support this.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:16 -0500

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Do you mean those Asian MDs who never believed in Oriental medicine while

in Asia?

In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:50:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we

must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's

not

forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind

this.

January 5, 2010

Hi Mike:

I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am

reading you right:

--Mike-

We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

knowledge base is important for treatment options.

---

Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western

medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our

treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close

to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not

" tack some western medicine on " .

I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts

have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

" In

recent years, the unique characteristics of

Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

severe crisis and chaotic actions.

Underneath

the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

methodologies of Chinese medicine.â€

LÃ¼

Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

Administration, July 1991

The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran

an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their

medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality

training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a

bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western

medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to

treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat

with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous

error was committed.

We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that

neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both,

east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts.

Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

zaranski

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have

their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and

important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM

diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the

various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? "

Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their

diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to

use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used

up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. "

Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and

thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be

treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than

their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication.

whoopee!

If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives

change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change.

Mark Z

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree

with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a

goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I

just read:

>

> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will

> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> ---

>

> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to

eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am

*truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will

express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I

am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes.

>

> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is

to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the

consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to

provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks

of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested,

observations.

>

> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients,

representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our

terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will

kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

>

> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain

both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for

the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present.

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> Hugo,

> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was

recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated

he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

>

> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we

innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that

what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away

eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the

moxa.

>

> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> > Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> >

> > --Andrea Beth-

> >

> > We are not of unified opinion on:

> > " medical " acupuncturists

> > the FPD

> > what to call ourselves

> > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for

> > our public identity...

> > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood

> > ---

> >

> > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only,

and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> >

> > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> >

> > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel

confused when we think " damp " ?

> > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly*

understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a

language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin

many shapes " .

> >

> > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our

" archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd

rather use?!

> >

> > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> >

> > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by

the way)

> > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be

specific.

> > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain.

> > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*,

people, *spooky*)

> >

> > I hope I amuse you guys.

> >

> > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is

a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it

(the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our

problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause

them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from

my p.o.v.

> >

> > Happy 2010 everyone!

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the

military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live

has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD.

> >

> > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the

United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture

statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal

medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice

acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing

educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are

not trained equally?

> >

> > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these

issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to

defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems.

> >

> > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these

issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them.

What has been useful, and how is it working?

> >

> > Thank you,

> > Andrea Beth

> >

> > Traditional Oriental Medicine

> > Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> > 635 S. 10th St.

> > Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> > (928) 274-1373

> >

> > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> >

> > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> >

> > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> > >

> > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no

business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> > >

> > > Laura

> > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The

Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained

recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at

least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent.

> >

> > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price

models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must

be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop

specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> >

> > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine,

influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a

private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his

future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of

what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> >

> > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat

people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are

thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are

happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they

receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> >

> > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more

money...these are the steps to success???

> >

> > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings

practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that

Will's vision is their own.

> >

> > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you

remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other

health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements

(private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County

Hospital and chose their own provider.

> >

> > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for

themselves, their families, and their choices.

> >

> > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any

kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check,

visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments

with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad

" side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com

> >

> > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia

> >

> > http://groups. /

group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

January 5, 2010

Hugo,

We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do

acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the

current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater

participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical

progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean

practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not

understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the

spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are

basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I

am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be

working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems.

Greater public acceptance and utilization are interconnected. If we are wanting

to become the professionals, I feel that we need greater understanding of both

these sytems otherwise we run the risk of being a second class profession and

will eventually end up being supervised in practice, again. Issues of education

and opinion can be changed with proper course correction. In other words, you

would not simply discard CM due to these issues, you would correct it. The same

is true for what we have here as well. I have seen a lot of challenges

(mistakes) with our education and practices, yet I do not advocate closing us

down.

I think we can have well educated artisans of CM that are educated in the

appropriate sciences (know when to refer or for what and have some idea of what

a patient is experiencing). Many programs have undercut their education in

order to maintain students. We need more rigor in the education and a higher

bar for entry.

Let us not forget that even CM changes and there are many modern developments,

herbal formulations and acupuncture techniques, that would not exist if it were

not for modern concepts and understanding.

Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been showing

more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the future of

the profession, there will be a decline in students and practitioners as well.

This will not be a viable profession at that point except for the few that are

able to maintain things. Other professionals will replace us.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Hi Mike:

I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am

reading you right:

--Mike-

We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

knowledge base is important for treatment options.

---

Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western

medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our

treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close

to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not

" tack some western medicine on " .

I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts

have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

" In

recent years, the unique characteristics of

Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

severe crisis and chaotic actions.

Underneath

the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

methodologies of Chinese medicine.”

Lü

Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

Administration, July 1991

The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran

an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their

medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality

training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a

bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western

medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to

treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat

with it, and a growing understanding that somewhere along the line a grievous

error was committed.

We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that

neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both,

east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts.

Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

zaranski

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have

their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and

important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM

diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the

various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? "

Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their

diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to

use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used

up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. "

Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and

thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be

treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than

their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication.

whoopee!

If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives

change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change.

Mark Z

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree

with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a

goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I

just read:

>

> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will

> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> ---

>

> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to

eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am

*truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will

express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I

am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes.

>

> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is

to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the

consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to

provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks

of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested,

observations.

>

> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients,

representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our

terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will

kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

>

> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain

both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for

the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present.

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> Hugo,

> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was

recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated

he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

>

> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we

innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that

what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away

eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the

moxa.

>

> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> > Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> >

> > --Andrea Beth-

> >

> > We are not of unified opinion on:

> > " medical " acupuncturists

> > the FPD

> > what to call ourselves

> > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for

> > our public identity...

> > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood

> > ---

> >

> > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only,

and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> >

> > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> >

> > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel

confused when we think " damp " ?

> > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly*

understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a

language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin

many shapes " .

> >

> > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our

" archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd

rather use?!

> >

> > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> >

> > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by

the way)

> > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be

specific.

> > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain.

> > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*,

people, *spooky*)

> >

> > I hope I amuse you guys.

> >

> > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is

a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it

(the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our

problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause

them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from

my p.o.v.

> >

> > Happy 2010 everyone!

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the

military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live

has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD.

> >

> > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the

United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture

statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal

medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice

acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing

educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are

not trained equally?

> >

> > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these

issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to

defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems.

> >

> > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these

issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them.

What has been useful, and how is it working?

> >

> > Thank you,

> > Andrea Beth

> >

> > Traditional Oriental Medicine

> > Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> > 635 S. 10th St.

> > Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> > (928) 274-1373

> >

> > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> >

> > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> >

> > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> > >

> > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no

business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> > >

> > > Laura

> > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The

Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained

recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at

least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent.

> >

> > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price

models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must

be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop

specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> >

> > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine,

influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a

private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his

future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of

what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> >

> > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat

people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are

thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are

happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they

receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> >

> > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more

money...these are the steps to success???

> >

> > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings

practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that

Will's vision is their own.

> >

> > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you

remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other

health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements

(private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County

Hospital and chose their own provider.

> >

> > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for

themselves, their families, and their choices.

> >

> > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any

kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check,

visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments

with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad

" side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> >

> > Mark Z

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com

> >

> > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and

acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia

> >

> > http://groups. /

group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly.

> >

> > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

January 5, 2010

Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated

knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many

more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to

dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no

sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really

isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional

practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible

to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner.

Laura

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Mike:

>

> I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i

am reading you right:

>

> --Mike-

> We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

> medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

> knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> ---

>

> Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western

medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our

treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close

to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not

" tack some western medicine on " .

>

> I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained

counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

>

> " In

> recent years, the unique characteristics of

> Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

> standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

> the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

> severe crisis and chaotic actions.

> Underneath

> the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

> characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

> annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

> crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

> methodologies of Chinese medicine.â€

>

> LÃ¼

> Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

> Administration, July 1991

> The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India

ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their

medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality

training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a

bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western

medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to

treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat

with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous

error was committed.

> We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

>

> ________________________________

> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

> RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that

neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both,

east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts.

Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

> zaranski

> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have

their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and

important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM

diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the

various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

>

> They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? "

>

> Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in

their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and

begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their

friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was

stuck. "

>

> Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem,

and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be

treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

>

> If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help

than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain

medication. whoopee!

>

> If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives

change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change.

>

> Mark Z

>

> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

wrote:

> >

> > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree

with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a

goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I

just read:

> >

> > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will

> > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> > ---

> >

> > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to

eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am

*truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will

express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I

am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes.

> >

> > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts

is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or

the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow

us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all

walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated,

tested, observations.

> >

> > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients,

representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our

terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will

kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

> >

> > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain

both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for

the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <zrosenbe@>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50

> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> >

> > Hugo,

> > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was

recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated

he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis.

> >

> > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we

innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that

what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away

eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the

moxa.

> >

> > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Andrea Beth and all:

> > >

> > > --Andrea Beth-

> > >

> > > We are not of unified opinion on:

> > > " medical " acupuncturists

> > > the FPD

> > > what to call ourselves

> > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to

> > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate

> > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine

> > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for

> > > our public identity...

> > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood

> > > ---

> > >

> > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing

only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*:

> > >

> > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM?

> > >

> > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel

confused when we think " damp " ?

> > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term

originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly*

understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a

language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin

many shapes " .

> > >

> > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our

" archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd

rather use?!

> > >

> > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses:

> > >

> > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology

by the way)

> > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be

specific.

> > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest

> > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why

(literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot:

> > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain.

> > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*,

people, *spooky*)

> > >

> > > I hope I amuse you guys.

> > >

> > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession

is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it

(the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our

problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause

them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from

my p.o.v.

> > >

> > > Happy 2010 everyone!

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > <@>

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34

> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > >

> > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the

military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for

acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live

has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD.

> > >

> > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the

United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture

statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal

medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice

acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing

educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are

not trained equally?

> > >

> > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these

issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to

defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems.

> > >

> > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these

issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them.

What has been useful, and how is it working?

> > >

> > > Thank you,

> > > Andrea Beth

> > >

> > > Traditional Oriental Medicine

> > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> > > 635 S. 10th St.

> > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> > > (928) 274-1373

> > >

> > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote:

> > >

> > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net>

> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

> > >

> > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM

> > >

> > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as

" Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no

business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession

generally lacks business sense, sadly.

> > > >

> > > > Laura

> > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The

Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained

recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at

least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent.

> > >

> > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price

models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style

acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional

nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must

be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop

specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD.

> > >

> > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine,

influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a

private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his

future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of

what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE.

> > >

> > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat

people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are

thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are

happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they

receive (think Veterens Administration) ???????

> > >

> > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more

money...these are the steps to success???

> > >

> > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings

practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that

Will's vision is their own.

> > >

> > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you

remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other

health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements

(private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County

Hospital and chose their own provider.

> > >

> > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility

for themselves, their families, and their choices.

> > >

> > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of

any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check,

visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments

with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad

" side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries.

> > >

> > > Mark Z

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com

> > >

> > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia

> > >

> > > http://groups. /

group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly.

> > >

> > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

January 5, 2010

I think western docs should be required to learn basic principles of Chinese

medicine so that they know when to refer to us!!!

Can you imagine how many needless surgeries would be avoided? How many people

could avoid a life of pain medication addiction? How many gallbladders and

uterus would remain in bodies? How much stronger the publics' immune system

could be? How much healthier our children could be? etc., etc, etc,

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

>

> Michael

>

> I and a sufficient amount of other stake holders would take exception to

> this statement.

> That's just your opinion.

> There are many of us who are in opposition to FPD so lets not propagandize

> this by the few who are speaking out in certain e-mail arenas.

> Certain accrediting organizations have no business ethically taking one

> side or the other regarding FPD.

> Yet it appears that some are by circumlocution appearing on such behalf.

>

> As to so-called other professionals replacing us.

> Ahhummm.....it appears that others whether professionals or otherwise have

> already replaced us.

> Where have you been?

> The horse has been out of the barn for many many years and is just now

> being noticed such as PTs doing acupuncture under so-called dry needling and

> rolling it up into PT billing codes.

> What makes the difference is the kind of results you get.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> naturaldoc1 writes:

>

> Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been

> showing more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the

> future of the profession, there will be a decline in students and

> practitioners as well. This will not be a viable profession at that point

except

> for the few that are able to maintain things. Other professionals will

> replace us.

>

January 5, 2010

Hi Mike, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

--Mike-

Let us not forget that even CM changes and there are many modern

developments, herbal formulations and acupuncture techniques, that

would not exist if it were not for modern concepts and understanding.

---

Of course, including those huge lasers that they still use in some hospitals in

China. However, we can advance while retaining our science. This is what gets me

- there is *not* one way to do science. As Porkert wrote: " Western science is

not any more rational than Chinese science - merely more analytical. "

--Mike-

I think we can have well educated artisans of CM that are educated in

the appropriate sciences (know when to refer or for what and have some

idea of what a patient is experiencing). Many programs have undercut

their education in order to maintain students.

---

I very much agree. How do we make sure, however, that students are not

functioning as biomedical technicians with a veneer or CM on the surface?

--Mike-

We need more rigor in

the education and a higher bar for entry.

---

I agree, so long as that higher bar is not going to be filtering in western

mindsets.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

January 6, 2010

I don't know, Laura. Let us not forget that in China CM doctors also study

western medicine now. Of course they did not do so in the past, simply

because it didn't exist. But there have always been influences - and it

probably is rightfully so that the most popular medical system to date (=

western medicine) influences chinese medicine to some extent.

One important question is: if we do not know anything about western

medicine, how will we know when to refer when we have a patient that may

present with a medical emergency?

I still do not have a satisfying answer to that question.

Or they need to be screened first by our western medical counterparts before

they come to us, or we have to refer them before we start treating them.

Examples: brain tumour, gall bladder stones, kidney stones, rupturing

appendix,. Also dermatological diseases: modern Chinese medical treatment

follows the western diagnoses (they have evolved from the original Chinese

diagnoses).

If someone does have a satisfying answer to the referral question, I'd be

glad to hear it.

I know hospitals also miss out on a correct diagnosis. But does that pardon

us from a serious responsibility towards our patients to always seek the

best help for them? Of course I know that we can treat gallbladder stones.

But I only did that after a western diagnosis that also gave information

about the size of the stones, for example.

So my point would be that we do need a biomedical basis alongside our cm

knowledge. What do others think?

Tom Verhaeghe

Stationsplein 59

8770 Ingelmunster

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

_____

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of heylaurag

dinsdag 5 januari 2010 23:45

Chinese Medicine

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of

accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can

treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine

knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about

western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing

western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western

medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as

much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine

practitioner.

Laura

January 6, 2010

Laura,

I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we

can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is

how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have

is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or

complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also

physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine

has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect

on, so everything is not so clear.

I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand

that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning

both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a

profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to

happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in

most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag

conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see

practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that

make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the

healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it

so quickly.

At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is

small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group

of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher

standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published

from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at

one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the

profession, which can be problematic. We need their support.

How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school

accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply

posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking

that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this

correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

heylaurag

Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000

Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated

knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many

more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to

dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no

sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really

isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional

practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible

to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner.

Laura

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Mike:

>

> I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am

reading you right:

>

> --Mike-

> We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western

> medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger

> knowledge base is important for treatment options.

> ---

>

> Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western

medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our

treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close

to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not

" tack some western medicine on " .

>

> I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained

counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present:

>

> " In

> recent years, the unique characteristics of

> Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its

> standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to

> the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of

> severe crisis and chaotic actions.

> Underneath

> the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the

> characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and

> annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this

> crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and

> methodologies of Chinese medicine.â€

>

> LÃ¼

> Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM

> Administration, July 1991

> The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran

an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their

medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality

training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a

bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western

medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to

treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat

with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous

error was committed.

> We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

>

> ________________________________

> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02

> RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that

neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both,

east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts.

Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

> zaranski

> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000

> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.

>

> New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have

their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and

important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM

diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the

various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady.

>

> They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? "

>

> Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in

their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and

begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their

friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was

stuck. "

>

> Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem,

and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be

treated effectively by their WM practitioner.

>

> If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help

than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain

medication. whoopee!

>

> If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives

change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change.

>

> Mark Z

>

> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

wrote:

> >

> > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree

with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a

goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I

just read:

> >

> > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today-

> > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical

> > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of

> > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five

> > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will

> > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will

> > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We

> > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear.

> > ---

> >

> > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to

eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am

*truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will

express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I

am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes.

> >

> > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts

is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or

the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow

us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all

walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated,

tested, observations.

> >

> > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients,

representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our

terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will

kill us - it is *that* which must be given up.

> >

> > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain

both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for

the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro