Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 This is an issue that demands that either we become the goto providers for acupuncture or we rely upon the MD's to send us patients and they remain the goto providers for info. It is either one way or the other. I would prefer that we speak for our own medicine, that way we can apply its principles correctly and get better results. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > SimonBethel > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:02:11 -0700 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > Simon > > > > Chinese Medicine > subincor > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > --Mike- > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > --- > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > " In > recent years, the unique characteristics of > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > Underneath > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > methodologies of Chinese medicine.” > > Lü > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > Administration, July 1991 > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ________________________________ > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > --- > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > Thanks, > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Hugo, > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > the FPD > > > what to call ourselves > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > our public identity... > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > --- > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > < > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > Laura > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Hi Mike, I am in support of the doctoral program, by the way. And I do think that some education in western medicine is important--especially in order to enable us to know when to refer in emergency situations. This was a solid aspect of my program, so I've just assumed it was for everyone. Isn't that a standard of our profession? But I do think our education could easily be watered down by too much western medicine in our program. and I do think that there is a basic premise that needs to be remembered while designing these programs--that we do not need to know anythng about western medicine to be excellent practioners of chinese medicine. I believe that is true. But I do think that we should know enough to know when to refer, which is already part of our education. BTW--I enjoyed my western science classes. Laura Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Laura, > > > > I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect on, so everything is not so clear. > > > > I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it so quickly. > > > > At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the profession, which can be problematic. We need their support. > > > How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski@ > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > > --- > > > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <zrosenbe@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hugo, > > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > > the FPD > > > > what to call ourselves > > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > > our public identity... > > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > > --- > > > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > <@> > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yes, part of why I am support of the doctorate is that I do not want to see acupuncturists having to work under a western MD. If we are doctors, that becomes less likely to find ourselves there. I don't plan to ever work outside of my own clinic, so it will not ever effect me either way. But I think we need to preserve the integrity of our medicine as a legitamate system by itself--just as western medicine is by itself. Yes, access to both is better than access to only one. But each alone is a full system, and we need to be recognized as such. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Mike, I am in support of the doctoral program, by the way. And I do think that some education in western medicine is important--especially in order to enable us to know when to refer in emergency situations. This was a solid aspect of my program, so I've just assumed it was for everyone. Isn't that a standard of our profession? > > But I do think our education could easily be watered down by too much western medicine in our program. and I do think that there is a basic premise that needs to be remembered while designing these programs--that we do not need to know anythng about western medicine to be excellent practioners of chinese medicine. I believe that is true. But I do think that we should know enough to know when to refer, which is already part of our education. > > BTW--I enjoyed my western science classes. > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > Laura, > > > > > > > > I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect on, so everything is not so clear. > > > > > > > > I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it so quickly. > > > > > > > > At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the profession, which can be problematic. We need their support. > > > > > > How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality. > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > heylaurag@ > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. > > > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > > > --Mike- > > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > --- > > > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > > > > > > " In > > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > > Underneath > > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > > > > > Lü > > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > > Administration, July 1991 > > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > zaranski@ > > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > > > --- > > > > > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > <zrosenbe@> > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > Hugo, > > > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > > > the FPD > > > > > what to call ourselves > > > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > > > our public identity... > > > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > <@> > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 On Jan 6, 2010, at 12:53 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev and others, > > > > There is also the issue of adequate student development. Have there been any new changes to the physical development side of skillsets (palpation) that is now improved in your classes? Any suggestions on instructional ideas that might help improve this? What is PCOM doing toward this end? While standing on one leg? To answer this question, I'd need a few hours and someone to transcribe dictation. . > > > > Also, I would like to read some comments on programs adding in more Japanese theory and clinical content to their teaching. Are students getting better clinical results with the simplified focus on 4 patterns (sho)? As this is a tactile medicine, I am most interested in hearing from faculty and student experiences with these. Japanese approaches to medicine are much more complex and varied than the question implies. . > > > > BTW, usage of Google is not likely a legally acceptable resource for reliable info to CYA. If it were, then we would have all our patients use a software program to decide what it is they have. The software can then accept the liability for missed diagnosis. I wasn't suggesting googling for this purpose (diagnosing a patient). Simply as a tool for gathering information about conditions already diagnosed, the drugs they are taking, etc. I don't do biomedical diagnosis, I do pattern differentiation according to the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > I agree with Simon that this is not an either or thing but one which demands we do both. Like I have stated previously, we need to increase the academic rigor of these courses (east and west) as well as better clinical exposure to various conditions. > I practice Chinese medicine, not biomedicine. I access biomedical data as needed. If I feel someone needs Western medical intervention, I suggest it. If the patient or M.D. gives me information, I use it. But i don't practice a pastiche, I try to get as much depth in the Chinese medical arena as possible. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > >> Chinese Medicine >> zrosenbe >> Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> Good in principle, but one major problem. >> >> For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. >> >> Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. >> >> >> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: >> >>> >>> The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. >>> >>> And we don't get hung up on one or the other! >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> >>> Chinese Medicine >>> subincor >>> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike: >>> >>> I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: >>> >>> --Mike- >>> We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western >>> medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger >>> knowledge base is important for treatment options. >>> --- >>> >>> Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . >>> >>> I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: >>> >>> " In >>> recent years, the unique characteristics of >>> Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its >>> standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to >>> the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of >>> severe crisis and chaotic actions. >>> Underneath >>> the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the >>> characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and >>> annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this >>> crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and >>> methodologies of Chinese medicine.≈ >>> >>> Lü >>> Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM >>> Administration, July 1991 >>> The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. >>> We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. >>> >>> Hugo >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Hugo Ramiro >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >>> Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 >>> RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. >>> >>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >>> >>> Chinese Medicine >>> zaranski >>> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. >>> >>> They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " >>> >>> Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " >>> >>> Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. >>> >>> If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! >>> >>> If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. >>> >>> Mark Z >>> >>> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: >>>> >>>> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- >>>> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical >>>> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of >>>> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five >>>> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will >>>> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will >>>> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We >>>> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. >>>> --- >>>> >>>> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. >>>> >>>> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. >>>> >>>> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. >>>> >>>> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Hugo >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Hugo Ramiro >>>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> <zrosenbe >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 >>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>> >>>> Hugo, >>>> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. >>>> >>>> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: >>>>> >>>>> --Andrea Beth- >>>>> >>>>> We are not of unified opinion on: >>>>> " medical " acupuncturists >>>>> the FPD >>>>> what to call ourselves >>>>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to >>>>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate >>>>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine >>>>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for >>>>> our public identity... >>>>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: >>>>> >>>>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? >>>>> >>>>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? >>>>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . >>>>> >>>>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! >>>>> >>>>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: >>>>> >>>>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) >>>>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. >>>>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest >>>>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: >>>>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. >>>>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) >>>>> >>>>> I hope I amuse you guys. >>>>> >>>>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. >>>>> >>>>> Happy 2010 everyone! >>>>> Hugo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> Hugo Ramiro >>>>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>>>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> < >>>>> Chinese Medicine >>>>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 >>>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>>> >>>>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. >>>>> >>>>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? >>>>> >>>>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. >>>>> >>>>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Andrea Beth >>>>> >>>>> Traditional Oriental Medicine >>>>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center >>>>> 635 S. 10th St. >>>>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 >>>>> (928) 274-1373 >>>>> >>>>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> >>>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>>> >>>>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM >>>>> >>>>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. >>>>> >>>>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. >>>>> >>>>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. >>>>> >>>>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? >>>>> >>>>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? >>>>> >>>>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. >>>>> >>>>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. >>>>> >>>>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. >>>>> >>>>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. >>>>> >>>>> Mark Z >>>>> >>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com >>>>> >>>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia >>>>> >>>>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, SimonBethel writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Chinese Medicine Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> To change your email delivery settings, click, http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that's OK....but just the basics. As stated before if we are going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, SimonBethel writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> Andrea Beth Damsky, L.Ac. > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> To change your email delivery settings, click, http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Michael And I would disagree with your perception. None of the six Florida schools charge less than $50,000 for the ACAOM accredited program so where do you get a $30,000 cost? Title IV loans are a big part of the problem....thereby enabling the school-accrediting cottage industry to whack up the costs and leave the student-graduate with the burden. You might say its like that with every profession. And that's true. Leaves one to wonder about what stinks in the educational system. The AOM education should be available for a lot less than what exists now and certainly where it appears to be headed (est $100,000.00). Fix the entry level program we already have and then there is no need for yet another FP degree. We already have it although it is improperly called Masters Degree. And yes.....CLOSE those schools if they can't be fixed. I think you need to look a little closer as to the program accrediting agency's powers over curricula. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Hi Simon and others: --Simon- One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. And we don't get hung up on one or the other! --- I'm hung up on . Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Laura, Are you for specialization, such as in Reproductive medicine? I ask this question as it is a hot topic right now and also because it requires, what I consider to be, more advanced knowledge of the reproductive system. I can see in this example where it is very necessary to understand hormones and basic physiology in order to treat this effectively. Anyone want to provide some insight as to why they think we should not know this info? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine heylaurag Wed, 6 Jan 2010 22:32:11 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Yes, part of why I am support of the doctorate is that I do not want to see acupuncturists having to work under a western MD. If we are doctors, that becomes less likely to find ourselves there. I don't plan to ever work outside of my own clinic, so it will not ever effect me either way. But I think we need to preserve the integrity of our medicine as a legitamate system by itself--just as western medicine is by itself. Yes, access to both is better than access to only one. But each alone is a full system, and we need to be recognized as such. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Hi Mike, I am in support of the doctoral program, by the way. And I do think that some education in western medicine is important--especially in order to enable us to know when to refer in emergency situations. This was a solid aspect of my program, so I've just assumed it was for everyone. Isn't that a standard of our profession? > > But I do think our education could easily be watered down by too much western medicine in our program. and I do think that there is a basic premise that needs to be remembered while designing these programs--that we do not need to know anythng about western medicine to be excellent practioners of chinese medicine. I believe that is true. But I do think that we should know enough to know when to refer, which is already part of our education. > > BTW--I enjoyed my western science classes. > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > Laura, > > > > > > > > I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect on, so everything is not so clear. > > > > > > > > I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it so quickly. > > > > > > > > At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the profession, which can be problematic. We need their support. > > > > > > How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality. > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > heylaurag@ > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. > > > > Laura > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > > > --Mike- > > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > --- > > > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > > > > > > " In > > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > > Underneath > > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > > > > > Lü > > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > > Administration, July 1991 > > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > zaranski@ > > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > > > --- > > > > > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > <zrosenbe@> > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > Hugo, > > > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > > > the FPD > > > > > what to call ourselves > > > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > > > our public identity... > > > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > <@> > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 lets remember that out of the 2.5 billion that the center of complementary and alternative medicine spent on research almost no positive studies have been found with the newest study on ginkgo being one. At some point we will see a strong blow back for alternative med demanding more science for our medicine as well. I agree with Michael that we need to understand science, if we do not take charge of research on CM we will see backward movement 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Zev, So who in OM falls into the category of practicing western medicine? I really do not think that is as much of an issue as learning the methods of OM, pre-TCM (TCM tends to be a mixture). So, what are you suggesting we do to change the PRC's bend on this? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zrosenbe Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:49:18 -0800 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. On Jan 6, 2010, at 12:53 PM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zev and others, > > > > There is also the issue of adequate student development. Have there been any new changes to the physical development side of skillsets (palpation) that is now improved in your classes? Any suggestions on instructional ideas that might help improve this? What is PCOM doing toward this end? While standing on one leg? To answer this question, I'd need a few hours and someone to transcribe dictation. . > > > > Also, I would like to read some comments on programs adding in more Japanese theory and clinical content to their teaching. Are students getting better clinical results with the simplified focus on 4 patterns (sho)? As this is a tactile medicine, I am most interested in hearing from faculty and student experiences with these. Japanese approaches to medicine are much more complex and varied than the question implies. . > > > > BTW, usage of Google is not likely a legally acceptable resource for reliable info to CYA. If it were, then we would have all our patients use a software program to decide what it is they have. The software can then accept the liability for missed diagnosis. I wasn't suggesting googling for this purpose (diagnosing a patient). Simply as a tool for gathering information about conditions already diagnosed, the drugs they are taking, etc. I don't do biomedical diagnosis, I do pattern differentiation according to the principles of Chinese medicine. > > > > I agree with Simon that this is not an either or thing but one which demands we do both. Like I have stated previously, we need to increase the academic rigor of these courses (east and west) as well as better clinical exposure to various conditions. > I practice Chinese medicine, not biomedicine. I access biomedical data as needed. If I feel someone needs Western medical intervention, I suggest it. If the patient or M.D. gives me information, I use it. But i don't practice a pastiche, I try to get as much depth in the Chinese medical arena as possible. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > >> Chinese Medicine >> zrosenbe >> Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> Good in principle, but one major problem. >> >> For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. >> >> Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. >> >> >> On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: >> >>> >>> The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. >>> >>> And we don't get hung up on one or the other! >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> >>> Chinese Medicine >>> subincor >>> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike: >>> >>> I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: >>> >>> --Mike- >>> We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western >>> medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger >>> knowledge base is important for treatment options. >>> --- >>> >>> Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . >>> >>> I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: >>> >>> " In >>> recent years, the unique characteristics of >>> Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its >>> standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to >>> the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of >>> severe crisis and chaotic actions. >>> Underneath >>> the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the >>> characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and >>> annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this >>> crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and >>> methodologies of Chinese medicine.≈ >>> >>> Lü >>> Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM >>> Administration, July 1991 >>> The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. >>> We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. >>> >>> Hugo >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Hugo Ramiro >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >>> Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 >>> RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. >>> >>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >>> >>> Chinese Medicine >>> zaranski >>> Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. >>> >>> They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " >>> >>> Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " >>> >>> Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. >>> >>> If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! >>> >>> If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. >>> >>> Mark Z >>> >>> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: >>>> >>>> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- >>>> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical >>>> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of >>>> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five >>>> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will >>>> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will >>>> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We >>>> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. >>>> --- >>>> >>>> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. >>>> >>>> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. >>>> >>>> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. >>>> >>>> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Hugo >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Hugo Ramiro >>>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> <zrosenbe >>>> Chinese Medicine >>>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 >>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>> >>>> Hugo, >>>> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. >>>> >>>> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: >>>>> >>>>> --Andrea Beth- >>>>> >>>>> We are not of unified opinion on: >>>>> " medical " acupuncturists >>>>> the FPD >>>>> what to call ourselves >>>>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to >>>>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate >>>>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine >>>>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for >>>>> our public identity... >>>>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: >>>>> >>>>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? >>>>> >>>>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? >>>>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . >>>>> >>>>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! >>>>> >>>>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: >>>>> >>>>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) >>>>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. >>>>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest >>>>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: >>>>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. >>>>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) >>>>> >>>>> I hope I amuse you guys. >>>>> >>>>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. >>>>> >>>>> Happy 2010 everyone! >>>>> Hugo >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> Hugo Ramiro >>>>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>>>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> < >>>>> Chinese Medicine >>>>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 >>>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>>> >>>>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. >>>>> >>>>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? >>>>> >>>>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. >>>>> >>>>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Andrea Beth >>>>> >>>>> Traditional Oriental Medicine >>>>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center >>>>> 635 S. 10th St. >>>>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 >>>>> (928) 274-1373 >>>>> >>>>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> >>>>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>>>> >>>>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM >>>>> >>>>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Laura >>>>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. >>>>> >>>>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. >>>>> >>>>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. >>>>> >>>>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? >>>>> >>>>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? >>>>> >>>>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. >>>>> >>>>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. >>>>> >>>>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. >>>>> >>>>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. >>>>> >>>>> Mark Z >>>>> >>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>>>> >>>>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com >>>>> >>>>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia >>>>> >>>>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, SimonBethel writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Laura, I think you are forgetting that the TCM brand of OM is heavily invested in knowing western medicine. The two are integrated in China with a big reliance factor. This type of discussion maybe part of the resurgence in classical understanding that appears to be more prevalent outside of China. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine heylaurag Wed, 6 Jan 2010 21:02:13 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Mike, I am in support of the doctoral program, by the way. And I do think that some education in western medicine is important--especially in order to enable us to know when to refer in emergency situations. This was a solid aspect of my program, so I've just assumed it was for everyone. Isn't that a standard of our profession? But I do think our education could easily be watered down by too much western medicine in our program. and I do think that there is a basic premise that needs to be remembered while designing these programs--that we do not need to know anythng about western medicine to be excellent practioners of chinese medicine. I believe that is true. But I do think that we should know enough to know when to refer, which is already part of our education. BTW--I enjoyed my western science classes. Laura Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Laura, > > > > I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect on, so everything is not so clear. > > > > I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it so quickly. > > > > At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the profession, which can be problematic. We need their support. > > > How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski@ > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > > --- > > > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <zrosenbe@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hugo, > > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > > the FPD > > > > what to call ourselves > > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > > our public identity... > > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > > --- > > > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > > Hugo > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > <@> > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > > > Laura > > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 I'm hung up on Chinese medicine. Actually me too Hugo, but I am willing to dance the dance or play the game or whatever it takes so we can be stronger in the marketplace. Simon Chinese Medicine ; Chinese Traditional Medicine subincor Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:08:43 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Simon and others: --Simon- One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. And we don't get hung up on one or the other! --- I'm hung up on . Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Richard, I would disagree with this perception as many of the practitioners of old created and provided input for the program, they are the ones that we need to look at. As for accrediting agencies, like them or not, they serve a purpose here that allows students to get loans to attend school and attempt to get some standards. If it were not for title IV loans most programs would not be in business today as students do not usually have an extra $30 K lying around. This is why I recommend to students to attend a CAB approved program, as the standards are much higher. Not sure now about things with the CAB and how well they are providing oversight due to the governor's cuts. Fix the problems with the schools or close them but let's not be throwing it all out just because. It is not up to the ACAOM to determine exactly what a school teaches, it is up to the schools. If we understand where the problems, then we can work to fix them. Ultimately, it is up to the schools to act and if they do not then, there needs to be some accountability. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 13:09:52 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that's OK....but just the basics. As stated before if we are going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, SimonBethel writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to reflect a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which the accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3 practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools and programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving on the Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or possess any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission). Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM background. As a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine training requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community. No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on how many students “flunk out†of accredited programs. Many, such as ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data on graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student enrollment, admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition, the US Department of Education requires that educational institutions receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV regulations, students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution from receiving further Title IV aid. If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who have not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the allegations. Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff. As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual, interim or monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process. Site visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners, AOM educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education, finances, and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi, lesson plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g., results on course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as well as site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit team prepares a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are achieving the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site visit teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards. When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission as verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies and/or follow-up site visits. As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure to comply with the standards. Sincerely, Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 Phone: 301-313-0855 FAX: 301-313-0912 www.acaom.org This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately. Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of acudoc11 Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM Chinese Medicine Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that's OK....but just the basics. As stated before if we are going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> acudoc11 <acudoc11%40aol.com> Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, SimonBethel <SimonBethel%40msn.com> writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com> > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > > subincor <subincor%40> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > > zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Hi Simon and all: --Simon- Actually me too Hugo, but I am willing to dance the dance or play the game or whatever it takes so we can be stronger in the marketplace. --- Thanks, Simon. I make the comment because I, personally, feel there is a vaccuum in terms of CM practitioners stating their pride, their roots and their commitments. My impression is that, yes, of course, so many of us feel it, but how often do we see it in print, in presentations, in policy? So I wonder *why* that is. It may be partially to do with CM's spirit being broken or wounded. Not far-fetched when we consider the events in China in the last 100 years ( " hundred years of confusion " according to some commentators). It may be good for our spirit to begin to *lay claim* to what is ours. It is OUR profession, not someone elses. WE decide what is done within it. Capitulation to western ideas, western terms, western methods will not save us or even make us better. It will rot us. There is no other term for it. However, if we do not *lay claim* to it, and all we do is negotiate with half-baked ideas of who we are, we will lose our profession. This is a legal battle. It is not about what is right, or what is factual. It is about making a loud, consistent noise, and *laying claim* to our profession. Right now, WM has laid claim to the human body and the way it works. If we allow that claim to stand then we have lost already. All it takes is for good people to do nothing, as a wise man said once. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Even if several are AOM practitioners and educators.......backgrounds, training and philosophy are extremely varied. In fact with opposite positions. Just because one is a practitioner or educator does not mean they have the ideal background for judging curriculum or for that matter....pushing an overkill of so-called biomedicine. In Chiropractic medicine.....there is a split. Those who wish to only adjust the spine and at the other extreme those who wish they were MDs. A split (not necessarily the same) exists in AOM. Balance is what is needed. So what has been done to insure that those practitioners and educators are of balanced positions? As to students who flunk out.....such statistics should be necessary to keep the schools honest and to insure graduates are up to the minimum. Without such statistics it appears that everyone who enters, graduates and gets licensed. If that's true....it explains a lot. Just because no one does it does not mean it doesn't have a place and function. To audit all the nice paperwork is one thing. Easy to be fooled. Its basic that the agency should be catching such abuses on their own without complaints being filed. The Florida Board of Acupuncture has applicants petition for waiver of issues such as proof of education and NOT one time in 12 years of attending official meetings did I ever hear a licensed practitioner on the Board ASK a technical Acupuncture question of the petitioner. And then there are the applicants being " slipped " through such as an MD from New Jersey in 2004 carrying an NCCAOM credential document review. Even the Assistant Attorney General advised the Board against issuing an acupuncture license to this individual who by the way never took an acupuncture course in his life...never held an acupuncture license in any state. After discovery of such an abuse that individual failed to renew in 2006. Where there is a WILL to circumvent the procedures there is always a WAY. So possibly instead of defending the position that everything is perfectly fine.....get someone to do the job. Richard Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc .. In a message dated 1/7/2010 11:56:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Dort.Bigg writes: This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to reflect a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which the accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3 practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools and programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving on the Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or possess any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission). Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM background. As a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine training requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community. No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on how many students “flunk out†of accredited programs. Many, such as ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data on graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student enrollment, admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition, the US Department of Education requires that educational institutions receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV regulations, students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution from receiving further Title IV aid. If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who have not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the allegations. Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff. As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual, interim or monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process. Site visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners, AOM educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education, finances, and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi, lesson plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g., results on course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as well as site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit team prepares a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are achieving the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site visit teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards. When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission as verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies and/or follow-up site visits. As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure to comply with the standards. Sincerely, Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 Phone: 301-313-0855 FAX: 301-313-0912 www.acaom.org This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately. _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ] On Behalf Of _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that'medicine. Well...that'<WBR>s OK....but just the basics. going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <acudoc11%ac> Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, _SimonBethel@SimonBe_ (SimonBethel) <SimonBethelSim> writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > _zrosenbe_ (zrosenbe) <zrosenbe%zrmai> > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _subincor_ (subincor) <subincor%subi> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ ____ ____ > > Hugo Ramiro > > _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > > _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > > > > ____________ ________ ________ _ > > mike Bowser <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> > > > _traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_ (Chinese Traditional Medicine ) <traditionaltrtrtraditimai> > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _zaranski_ (zaranski) <zaranski%zarmai> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ They a > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > --- In _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..s> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Z'ev Rosenberg <zrosenbe@..z> > >> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " Do we a feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there'our " archaic " language because that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private- Idiopathic Neuralgia - Com > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification)don't get it (the degree / certific that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >>> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> <@..a> > >>> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> , L.Ac. > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> _http://groups._ (http://groups./) / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Richard, It was not my perception but we just had email confirmation of the way things worked out in FL from Dort Bigg. Thanks Dort for correcting our errors in logic on this accreditation issue. BTW, it appears that ACAOM agrees with not interfering with actual curricula. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 13:58:12 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Michael And I would disagree with your perception. None of the six Florida schools charge less than $50,000 for the ACAOM accredited program so where do you get a $30,000 cost? Title IV loans are a big part of the problem....thereby enabling the school-accrediting cottage industry to whack up the costs and leave the student-graduate with the burden. You might say its like that with every profession. And that's true. Leaves one to wonder about what stinks in the educational system. The AOM education should be available for a lot less than what exists now and certainly where it appears to be headed (est $100,000.00). Fix the entry level program we already have and then there is no need for yet another FP degree. We already have it although it is improperly called Masters Degree. And yes.....CLOSE those schools if they can't be fixed. I think you need to look a little closer as to the program accrediting agency's powers over curricula. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Michael Appears that it is no different in Chiropractic medicine. Different schools of thought at different schools resulting in different practitioners believing different techniques. Richard In a message dated 1/8/2010 6:45:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Yes variability is a problem but you must include the greatest variable into this mix, the OM education, which largely determines an education. As one that has attended a well known program and worked in two others, I can tell you that this variability is much more then it should be. I expect some but with this much it is like we have separate professions depending upon your training. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Congratulations to ACAOM. Yes Mr Bigg....no one was paying attention to the 20 schools in Florida and ACAOM did the basic job of getting rid of the obvious abusers...BUT that was the easy part. Other abuses much more covert than what you all are used to get passed the paperwork of the " system " because what is needed is a " hunter " and you all don't have one. I learned from one of the best - Dr. Robert C Sohn. One of his brilliant mottos was.... " if all you shoot for is the appearance of a goal....you will get even less than that. One must target a goal way beyond what is envisioned. " Appearances just don't get the best job accomplished. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 11:56:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Dort.Bigg writes: This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to reflect a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which the accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3 practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools and programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving on the Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or possess any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission). Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM background. As a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine training requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community. No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on how many students “flunk out†of accredited programs. Many, such as ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data on graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student enrollment, admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition, the US Department of Education requires that educational institutions receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV regulations, students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution from receiving further Title IV aid. If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who have not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the allegations. Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff. As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual, interim or monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process. Site visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners, AOM educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education, finances, and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi, lesson plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g., results on course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as well as site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit team prepares a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are achieving the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site visit teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards. When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission as verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies and/or follow-up site visits. As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure to comply with the standards. Sincerely, Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 Phone: 301-313-0855 FAX: 301-313-0912 www.acaom.org This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately. _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ] On Behalf Of _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM _Traditional_Traditional_<ineine<WBR>@yahoine_ (Chinese Medicine ) Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that'medicine. Well...that'<WBR>s OK....but just the basics. going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <acudoc11%ac> Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, _SimonBethel@SimonBe_ (SimonBethel) <SimonBethelSim> writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > _zrosenbe_ (zrosenbe) <zrosenbe%zrmai> > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _subincor_ (subincor) <subincor%subi> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ ____ ____ > > Hugo Ramiro > > _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > > _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > > > > ____________ ________ ________ _ > > mike Bowser <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> > > > _traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_ (Chinese Traditional Medicine ) <traditionaltrtrtraditimai> > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _zaranski_ (zaranski) <zaranski%zarmai> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ They a > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > --- In _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..s> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Z'ev Rosenberg <zrosenbe@..z> > >> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " Do we a feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there'our " archaic " language because that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private- Idiopathic Neuralgia - Com > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification)don't get it (the degree / certific that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >>> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> <@..a> > >>> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> , L.Ac. > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> _http://groups._ (http://groups./) / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 For example..... ALL DCs are licensed under one license which varies from state to state. Nothing is settled identically. This is what the medical profession (those who run it) continue to wish for all other healthcare professions. Keep them divided so they fight within. And how they do that is create adversarial positions. It doesn't matter where from or what about. Get just a few practitioners to follow those talking points and you got yourself a battle. What makes anyone believe that that is not what is happening right now. As suggested before.....Zev Rosenberg and Ken Rose are examples of logically thinkers and well rounded practitioners. These are the kind of commissioners who should be leading the direction of education. Richard In a message dated 1/8/2010 9:10:03 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, acudoc11 writes: Michael Appears that it is no different in Chiropractic medicine. Different schools of thought at different schools resulting in different practitioners believing different techniques. Richard In a message dated 1/8/2010 6:45:58 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) writes: Richard, Yes variability is a problem but you must include the greatest variable into this mix, the OM education, which largely determines an education. As one that has attended a well known program and worked in two others, I can tell you that this variability is much more then it should be. I expect some but with this much it is like we have separate professions depending upon your training. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 Richard, Yes variability is a problem but you must include the greatest variable into this mix, the OM education, which largely determines an education. As one that has attended a well known program and worked in two others, I can tell you that this variability is much more then it should be. I expect some but with this much it is like we have separate professions depending upon your training. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:11:37 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Even if several are AOM practitioners and educators.......backgrounds, training and philosophy are extremely varied. In fact with opposite positions. Just because one is a practitioner or educator does not mean they have the ideal background for judging curriculum or for that matter....pushing an overkill of so-called biomedicine. In Chiropractic medicine.....there is a split. Those who wish to only adjust the spine and at the other extreme those who wish they were MDs. A split (not necessarily the same) exists in AOM. Balance is what is needed. So what has been done to insure that those practitioners and educators are of balanced positions? As to students who flunk out.....such statistics should be necessary to keep the schools honest and to insure graduates are up to the minimum. Without such statistics it appears that everyone who enters, graduates and gets licensed. If that's true....it explains a lot. Just because no one does it does not mean it doesn't have a place and function. To audit all the nice paperwork is one thing. Easy to be fooled. Its basic that the agency should be catching such abuses on their own without complaints being filed. The Florida Board of Acupuncture has applicants petition for waiver of issues such as proof of education and NOT one time in 12 years of attending official meetings did I ever hear a licensed practitioner on the Board ASK a technical Acupuncture question of the petitioner. And then there are the applicants being " slipped " through such as an MD from New Jersey in 2004 carrying an NCCAOM credential document review. Even the Assistant Attorney General advised the Board against issuing an acupuncture license to this individual who by the way never took an acupuncture course in his life...never held an acupuncture license in any state. After discovery of such an abuse that individual failed to renew in 2006. Where there is a WILL to circumvent the procedures there is always a WAY. So possibly instead of defending the position that everything is perfectly fine.....get someone to do the job. Richard Freiberg OMD DAc AP LAc .. In a message dated 1/7/2010 11:56:16 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Dort.Bigg writes: This is a note of clarification on the prior post, which appears to reflect a lack of understanding of accreditation protocols and processes. Contrary to the post, accrediting agencies are required to have persons serving as Commissioners who are trained in the occupation or profession for which the accreditor assesses training quality. ACAOM, for example, has 3 practitioners of AOM, 3 AOM educators affiliated with accredited schools and programs, in addition to 3 public members and 2 at large members serving on the Commission. At large Commissioners can be practitioners, educators or possess any other category of expertise that would be helpful to the Commission). Similarly, the post is incorrect in asserting that proposals for additional biomedicine requirements come from persons without an AOM background. As a matter of information, proposals to ACAOM for adding biomedicine training requirements most typically come from the AOM practitioner community. No accrediting agencies of which we are aware collect and maintain data on how many students “flunk out” of accredited programs. Many, such as ACAOM, do collect as part of required school annual reports outcome data on graduation and retention rates for which ACAOM has adopted specific accreditation standards, in addition to data on program length, student enrollment, admissions data, faculty data, Title IV financial aid data, certification exam pass rate data, financial statements, among many others. In addition, the US Department of Education requires that educational institutions receiving Title IV funds to capably implement effective policies governing satisfactory student academic performance and pursuant to Title IV regulations, students who violate those policies must be dropped by the institution from receiving further Title IV aid. If any member of the public has information that an ACAOM accredited or candidate program is not operating with honesty and integrity such the allegation in the recent post that a school may be graduating students who have not completed program requirements, they are strongly encouraged to submit an official complaint to ACAOM with evidence that supports the allegations. Persons wishing to file complaints are free to seek consultative advice on the Commission’s complaint policies from ACAOM staff. As a matter of information, throughout the accreditation process programs are required to confirm that they continue to meet the accreditation standards between comprehensive reaccreditation reviews (e.g., annual, interim or monitoring reports). Similarly, programs must be reaccredited during designated intervals and receive a site visit is part of that process. Site visit teams consist of four site visitors, including AOM practitioners, AOM educators, AOM administrators and generalists in higher education, finances, and governance verify and document the degree to which programs meet or do not meet the accreditation standards and criteria. This specifically includes site visit team reviews of curriculum materials (e.g., syllabi, lesson plans, clinical training requirements, quizzes, exams, other student assessment tools), portfolios of actual student academic work (e.g., results on course exams, pre-clinic exams, pre-graduation exams, reviews of research papers, clinical evaluations and attendance records, among others), as well as site visit team interviews of students, interns and faculty and observations of actual classroom and clinic instruction. The site visit team prepares a written report of its findings during the site visit that documents instructional quality and confirms the degree to which students are achieving the required professional competencies expected from the program. Site visit teams also document and verify compliance with all other ACAOM standards. When programs do not meet the accreditation standards, the Commission will either take immediate adverse action against the program or require it to bring itself into compliance within a timeline specified by the Commission as verified by required reports on progress in remediating deficiencies and/or follow-up site visits. As a final note, a number of the Florida schools referenced in the prior post that are no longer in operation today closed after the Commission was required to take adverse action on accreditation or candidacy for failure to comply with the standards. Sincerely, Dort S. Bigg, JD, Executive Director Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Maryland Trade Center #3 7501 Greenway Center Dr., #760 Greenbelt, MD 20770 Phone: 301-313-0855 FAX: 301-313-0912 www.acaom.org This note contains information from the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine (ACAOM), which is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the planned recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any disclosure, copying, distribution or other use of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately. _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ] On Behalf Of _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:10 PM _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. There were 20 schools in Florida --- yes twenty - in 1994. Now only six survive. Yes...many of the schools were owned/run by practitioners. Who else? Today.....whether or not practitioners still run schools there is way to much influence from others NOT trained at all in AOM (like accrediting orgs) who are questionable about what they know about CM appropriate education. And this appears to be where the over kill in biomedicine is coming from. Biomedicine is really research. One of the primary MD writers in Biomedicine now teaches at a Florida AOM school and to what students advise.....its nothing more than allopathic medicine. Well...that'medicine. Well...that'<WBR>s OK....but just the basics. going to follow PRC then we should have the MD license with a specialty in AOM. I can only speak to what I have seen coming out of the Florida schools. WHERE are the statistics on HOW many got flunked OUT OF SCHOOL? And the supervision of schools appears to be greatly LACKING when students are given a FREE PASS on third year studies/tests specifically in materia medica so they can be graduated and out-the-door and onto the next victim. Richard In a message dated 1/7/2010 9:37:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> writes: I do agree somewhat with Richard but also think it comes down to schools implementing things better. Many practitioners that run schools know little about education, etc. This is part of the learning curve that needs more emphasis and input. Michael W. Bowser, DC LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) <acudoc11%ac> Thu, 7 Jan 2010 12:10:08 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Simon The trouble is that these agencies do NOT have people with the right backgrounds, knowledge or training to be setting the education. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:27:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, _SimonBethel@SimonBe_ (SimonBethel) <SimonBethelSim> writes: Zev, I agree with you, is unique , it should not be watered down. As it collides with Western Medicine it gets tainted with it to a degree but with people like you and others its fundamentals won't change as long as we can come together and act! Lead the way..... > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > _zrosenbe_ (zrosenbe) <zrosenbe%zrmai> > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _subincor_ (subincor) <subincor%subi> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ____________ ____ ____ > > Hugo Ramiro > > _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > > _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > > > > ____________ ________ ________ _ > > mike Bowser <_naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) <naturaldoc1natumai> > > > _traditional_traditional_<WBRtraditional_tra_ (Chinese Traditional Medicine ) <traditionaltrtrtraditimai> > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > > _zaranski_ (zaranski) <zaranski%zarmai> > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________ They a > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > --- In _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..s> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ____________ ____ ____ > >> Z'ev Rosenberg <zrosenbe@..z> > >> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " Do we a feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there'our " archaic " language because that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private- Idiopathic Neuralgia - Com > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification)don't get it (the degree / certific that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> _http://middlemedicihttp://middlehtt_ (http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com/) > >>> _http://www.middlemehttp://www_ (http://www.middlemedicine.org/) > >>> > >>> ____________ ____ ____ > >>> <@..a> > >>> _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <TraditionalTrTrTraditimai> > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> , L.Ac. > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, _http://www.chinesem_ (http://www.chinesem/) edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> _http://groups._ (http://groups./) / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 You are 1000% correct. I do not believe the long tales that those who control the medical profession are not behind this. That's what makes me suspect. Either they are part of the problem OR just plain n\ignorant. Richard In a message dated 1/8/2010 1:12:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: No offense but classroom teaching is not the same as setting accreditation standards. I would prefer our schools attempt to follow a more accepted model of education. BTW, I found that ACAOM mentions that they are not setting curriculum per se but focused upon making sure schools have a process in place to know how well they are doing. As Mr. Bigg has pointed out, it is not the medical profession that has done this to us but our own profession that considered the professional future and made these decisions. It sounds like you are not accepting of this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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