Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 No. Try the many Asian practitioners that are in clinical practice or teach at our many OM schools. They tend to have a deeper understanding of both and in some cases, some of them actually do get their medical license. If you are suggesting the belief in neuro vascular node theory, then probably not too many that support this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:16 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Do you mean those Asian MDs who never believed in Oriental medicine while in Asia? In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:50:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's not forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Michael What AOM school today FAILS to teach how to take blood pressure? WOW...I cant believe that such a failure exists. Its what I said a few weeks ago......if that's the case......the schools need to do a LOT better job in the basics which are already there or certainly should have been. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Michael I and a sufficient amount of other stake holders would take exception to this statement. That's just your opinion. There are many of us who are in opposition to FPD so lets not propagandize this by the few who are speaking out in certain e-mail arenas. Certain accrediting organizations have no business ethically taking one side or the other regarding FPD. Yet it appears that some are by circumlocution appearing on such behalf. As to so-called other professionals replacing us. Ahhummm.....it appears that others whether professionals or otherwise have already replaced us. Where have you been? The horse has been out of the barn for many many years and is just now being noticed such as PTs doing acupuncture under so-called dry needling and rolling it up into PT billing codes. What makes the difference is the kind of results you get. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been showing more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the future of the profession, there will be a decline in students and practitioners as well. This will not be a viable profession at that point except for the few that are able to maintain things. Other professionals will replace us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 I do agree with Mark here. It really is about how we " manage " the practice that will determine income. Another degree means you know more, and Ph.D's tend to mean you know more about research. You can also learn more from CEU's. I really think that technical skills are about what the practitioner learned " after " school. Then you need practice managment skills to run your own practice. It can be overwhelming, but there are some good practice managment groups out there to guide you along. Of course you can do it yourself, getting ideas from other practitioners. I find that process takes longer. The other option is you don't concern yourself with running a business, but rather in working for someone else. Yet another option is only do this part time and earn another income at something else. I think it is a necessity if you don't want to run a practice using tools such as marketing, patient education, etc.  If you love practicing , whatever you choose can work for you. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " zedbowls " <zaranski " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, January 5, 2010 9:08:40 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine.  Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate level degree we will all benefit. > > Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage therapists? (no offense to massage therapists) Where to start? There are massage therapists charging $30 for full hour massages in my town, and they can get you in right away! My two massage therapists charge $50 for half an hour, and don't have an opening available for weeks. If everybody has the same product and the same service to back it up, the most conveniently located will get the most business, and the low price leader will get the next biggest share. Our work is not quite like that! Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in it because you are called Doctor? a) What do you charge now per treatment? b) What would you like to charge? c) What do you think people SHOULD pay for your services? I suggest you raise your prices to either b or c, work hard, do a good job and be happy that you can help people. If you are good at it you will get plenty of opportunities and the more you help the more will come for help. Mark Z Sidenote, funny story: A couple started care at our Clinic. They both went thru our 4 visit evaluation period and each improved. They came to me and explained that because of their financial situation they had decided to seek care closer to home with a chiropractor who needles and who would accept their insurance plus a minor co-pay. I explained that all things are not equal, that they would always be welcome at our Clinic, and wished them luck. Their progress slowed, then stopped, some symptoms returned, some signs strengthened, but his neck felt better. They returned. They said " can't you tell my Doc where to put the needles? " I explained that would only work for a short time, and that the only true hope for their Doc was a proper education. They bought more herbs, refined their understanding of their diets and went back to their DC. I still to this day answer email questions from them, and their conditions are better, but certainly not resolved. They are happy to be better, and satisfied with their compromise. These two are the exception. Most our Client's DEMAND the full benefits of CM because they are Sick & Tired of feling sick and being tired, and having the only remedy be " more drugs " . Our Clients show-up for their recommended treatments, follow their recommeded diets, take their herbs, do their stretches and gleefully anticipate their next re-eval (every 8 treatments) where we chart their progress and set goals for the next. Upon exceeding 60% recovery (100% being truly healthy) they have the opportunity to receive an embroidered tennis/polo-style shirt (exactly like those worn by our staff at outside events and in the Clinic on Thursdays) in exchange for writing a testimonial and providing 5 people with whom to share (via snailmail) that testimonial (which is accompanyed by a coupon for a free exam and an invitation to the Clinic). Most Clients are thrilled to participate, and proud to wear their shirts (which usually leads to opportunities to share their experience with those who inquire about the shirt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Yep, isn't it great? I find that it really does help a lot to educate your patients about the language of Chinese medicine. And reading this within this context leaves me all the more committed to doing so. Do you think many of us see it otherwise though? I can't imagine that many CM practitioners would agree that we need to adopt WM language for what we do. What a disaster that would be. Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski wrote: > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > --- > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > Thanks, > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Hugo, > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > the FPD > > > what to call ourselves > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > our public identity... > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > --- > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > Laura > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Wow, that's a fantastic approach, Mark. Great ideas. I can see that you have great business sense and are applying it in many ways that I have not, eg: hiring staff so that you can focus on the medicine and the shirts/testimonials etc. Very cool. The things is, in a world where we don't yet have that much competition from others who are accepting " the going rate " , you can increase what you charge and still keep your patients. And even if we reach a point like i describe where we are fully integrated into the mainstream (which, BTW, is not something I look forward to, but accept as inevitable) you may still keep your clients and maintain your practice because you have a full caseload devoted to you. But new practitioners will not be able to leave school and start a practice and build a caseload AND charge what they deserve to make in a world where we have tons of competition from acupuncturists who are charging what we can get with a masters level medicine. I too have a busy practice with a waiting list, but if mainstream is as inevitable as I think it is, I want us to make as much as we deserve when we reach that point. Yeah, my caseload will be loyal to me, but I am thinking of the bigger picture--of the profession as a whole. This profession will not thrive if we are not paid what we deserve. And we deserve as much if not more as any MD out there. And, yes, I do think that EVERYONE will respect us more if we have a doctorate. People are very swayed by that kind of thing. All the things that you do to market yourself would become unnecessary, for example. As I said, i don't look forward to us becoming more mainstream, but I think its inevitable. We may as well do what it takes to put ourselves in the best position possible. Laura Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski wrote: > > > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate level degree we will all benefit. > > > > Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage therapists? (no offense to massage therapists) > > Where to start? There are massage therapists charging $30 for full hour massages in my town, and they can get you in right away! My two massage therapists charge $50 for half an hour, and don't have an opening available for weeks. > > If everybody has the same product and the same service to back it up, the most conveniently located will get the most business, and the low price leader will get the next biggest share. > > Our work is not quite like that! > > Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in it because you are called Doctor? > > a) What do you charge now per treatment? b) What would you like to charge? c) What do you think people SHOULD pay for your services? > > I suggest you raise your prices to either b or c, work hard, do a good job and be happy that you can help people. If you are good at it you will get plenty of opportunities and the more you help the more will come for help. > > Mark Z > > Sidenote, funny story: > A couple started care at our Clinic. They both went thru our 4 visit evaluation period and each improved. They came to me and explained that because of their financial situation they had decided to seek care closer to home with a chiropractor who needles and who would accept their insurance plus a minor co-pay. I explained that all things are not equal, that they would always be welcome at our Clinic, and wished them luck. > > Their progress slowed, then stopped, some symptoms returned, some signs strengthened, but his neck felt better. > > They returned. They said " can't you tell my Doc where to put the needles? " > > I explained that would only work for a short time, and that the only true hope for their Doc was a proper education. They bought more herbs, refined their understanding of their diets and went back to their DC. I still to this day answer email questions from them, and their conditions are better, but certainly not resolved. They are happy to be better, and satisfied with their compromise. > > These two are the exception. Most our Client's DEMAND the full benefits of CM because they are Sick & Tired of feling sick and being tired, and having the only remedy be " more drugs " . > > Our Clients show-up for their recommended treatments, follow their recommeded diets, take their herbs, do their stretches and gleefully anticipate their next re-eval (every 8 treatments) where we chart their progress and set goals for the next. > > Upon exceeding 60% recovery (100% being truly healthy) they have the opportunity to receive an embroidered tennis/polo-style shirt (exactly like those worn by our staff at outside events and in the Clinic on Thursdays) in exchange for writing a testimonial and providing 5 people with whom to share (via snailmail) that testimonial (which is accompanyed by a coupon for a free exam and an invitation to the Clinic). Most Clients are thrilled to participate, and proud to wear their shirts (which usually leads to opportunities to share their experience with those who inquire about the shirt). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Richard, I think you might be wrong on this. I have known many a Chinese practitioner in CA and MN, both teaching and in clinical practices, that have an expanded knowledge base into both sides of this coin. They are much more respected as a result of this education. These practitioners are both knowledgeable and compassionate about our medicine. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 11:10:30 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Double check your theory. The majority of those practitioners were MDs who never believed in AOM and only because they were tired of working for $5/hour in blood banks did they see the opportunity to try to regain sort-of-MD status through this night-trade-school cottage industry business...first as so-called teachers. Some who were really qualified .....did and do get their MD licenses..... but then these individuals are generally not the slightest bit interested in AOM. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 11:04:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: No. Try the many Asian practitioners that are in clinical practice or teach at our many OM schools. They tend to have a deeper understanding of both and in some cases, some of them actually do get their medical license. If you are suggesting the belief in neuro vascular node theory, then probably not too many that support this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:16 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Do you mean those Asian MDs who never believed in Oriental medicine while in Asia? In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:50:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's not forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Mike: I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: --Mike- We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. --- Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: " In recent years, the unique characteristics of Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of severe crisis and chaotic actions. Underneath the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and methodologies of Chinese medicine.†Lü Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM Administration, July 1991 The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zaranski Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > --- > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Hugo, > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > > the FPD > > what to call ourselves > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > our public identity... > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > --- > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > < > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > Andrea Beth > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > 635 S. 10th St. > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > Laura > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > Mark Z > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hugo, We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems. Greater public acceptance and utilization are interconnected. If we are wanting to become the professionals, I feel that we need greater understanding of both these sytems otherwise we run the risk of being a second class profession and will eventually end up being supervised in practice, again. Issues of education and opinion can be changed with proper course correction. In other words, you would not simply discard CM due to these issues, you would correct it. The same is true for what we have here as well. I have seen a lot of challenges (mistakes) with our education and practices, yet I do not advocate closing us down. I think we can have well educated artisans of CM that are educated in the appropriate sciences (know when to refer or for what and have some idea of what a patient is experiencing). Many programs have undercut their education in order to maintain students. We need more rigor in the education and a higher bar for entry. Let us not forget that even CM changes and there are many modern developments, herbal formulations and acupuncture techniques, that would not exist if it were not for modern concepts and understanding. Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been showing more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the future of the profession, there will be a decline in students and practitioners as well. This will not be a viable profession at that point except for the few that are able to maintain things. Other professionals will replace us. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Mike: I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: --Mike- We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. --- Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: " In recent years, the unique characteristics of Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of severe crisis and chaotic actions. Underneath the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and methodologies of Chinese medicine.” Lü Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM Administration, July 1991 The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that somewhere along the line a grievous error was committed. We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zaranski Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > --- > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Hugo, > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > > the FPD > > what to call ourselves > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > our public identity... > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > --- > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > < > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > Andrea Beth > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > 635 S. 10th St. > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > Laura > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > Mark Z > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. Laura Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Mike: > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > --Mike- > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > --- > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > " In > recent years, the unique characteristics of > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > Underneath > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > Lü > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > Administration, July 1991 > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > --- > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > Thanks, > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Hugo, > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > the FPD > > > what to call ourselves > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > our public identity... > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > --- > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > Laura > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 I think western docs should be required to learn basic principles of Chinese medicine so that they know when to refer to us!!! Can you imagine how many needless surgeries would be avoided? How many people could avoid a life of pain medication addiction? How many gallbladders and uterus would remain in bodies? How much stronger the publics' immune system could be? How much healthier our children could be? etc., etc, etc, Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote: > > Michael > > I and a sufficient amount of other stake holders would take exception to > this statement. > That's just your opinion. > There are many of us who are in opposition to FPD so lets not propagandize > this by the few who are speaking out in certain e-mail arenas. > Certain accrediting organizations have no business ethically taking one > side or the other regarding FPD. > Yet it appears that some are by circumlocution appearing on such behalf. > > As to so-called other professionals replacing us. > Ahhummm.....it appears that others whether professionals or otherwise have > already replaced us. > Where have you been? > The horse has been out of the barn for many many years and is just now > being noticed such as PTs doing acupuncture under so-called dry needling and > rolling it up into PT billing codes. > What makes the difference is the kind of results you get. > > Richard > > > > > In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > naturaldoc1 writes: > > Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been > showing more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the > future of the profession, there will be a decline in students and > practitioners as well. This will not be a viable profession at that point except > for the few that are able to maintain things. Other professionals will > replace us. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Mike, thank you for your thoughtful reply. --Mike- Let us not forget that even CM changes and there are many modern developments, herbal formulations and acupuncture techniques, that would not exist if it were not for modern concepts and understanding. --- Of course, including those huge lasers that they still use in some hospitals in China. However, we can advance while retaining our science. This is what gets me - there is *not* one way to do science. As Porkert wrote: " Western science is not any more rational than Chinese science - merely more analytical. " --Mike- I think we can have well educated artisans of CM that are educated in the appropriate sciences (know when to refer or for what and have some idea of what a patient is experiencing). Many programs have undercut their education in order to maintain students. --- I very much agree. How do we make sure, however, that students are not functioning as biomedical technicians with a veneer or CM on the surface? --Mike- We need more rigor in the education and a higher bar for entry. --- I agree, so long as that higher bar is not going to be filtering in western mindsets. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 I don't know, Laura. Let us not forget that in China CM doctors also study western medicine now. Of course they did not do so in the past, simply because it didn't exist. But there have always been influences - and it probably is rightfully so that the most popular medical system to date (= western medicine) influences chinese medicine to some extent. One important question is: if we do not know anything about western medicine, how will we know when to refer when we have a patient that may present with a medical emergency? I still do not have a satisfying answer to that question. Or they need to be screened first by our western medical counterparts before they come to us, or we have to refer them before we start treating them. Examples: brain tumour, gall bladder stones, kidney stones, rupturing appendix,. Also dermatological diseases: modern Chinese medical treatment follows the western diagnoses (they have evolved from the original Chinese diagnoses). If someone does have a satisfying answer to the referral question, I'd be glad to hear it. I know hospitals also miss out on a correct diagnosis. But does that pardon us from a serious responsibility towards our patients to always seek the best help for them? Of course I know that we can treat gallbladder stones. But I only did that after a western diagnosis that also gave information about the size of the stones, for example. So my point would be that we do need a biomedical basis alongside our cm knowledge. What do others think? Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-geneeskunde.be _____ Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of heylaurag dinsdag 5 januari 2010 23:45 Chinese Medicine Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Laura, I can easily see how this stance can lead us toward an error in thinking that we can treat this or that better then anyone else. My first question on this, is how do you know? We have little data on our successes and what little we have is inadequate. If you are wanting to participate in treating more serious or complex conditions, then we must know the language of science and also physiology. Notice that I mention science and not medicince. Western medicine has taken a dim view on some areas of science that clearly they are incorrect on, so everything is not so clear. I have stated that we should learn as much CM as possible but few understand that western science is a big part of TCM (open up a TCM textbook). Learning both in greater detail would allow us to become more utilized and accepted as a profession. The attempts to somehow reduce our education is not likely to happen nor is it responsible. If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. We have dug ourselves out of the healthcare cellar, so-to-speak, and we should not be looking to get back into it so quickly. At some point in time, we will need to acknowledge that our profession here is small and that the global profession does not share this view. The larger group of Asian-trained practitioners is much more in line with having higher standards, and yes even the FPD/DAOM. A study on this info has been published from one of our associations (about 600 Asian practitioners were in support at one meeting). We run the risk of separating ourselves from the rest of the profession, which can be problematic. We need their support. How many on this group actually are involved with OM education and school accreditation? Understanding this issue is much more complex then simply posting an emotional response reflected towards our OM education. I am thinking that many did not like their science courses and resented taking them. Is this correct? Maybe the instruction was of poor quality. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine heylaurag Tue, 5 Jan 2010 22:44:54 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. Laura Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Mike: > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > --Mike- > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > --- > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > " In > recent years, the unique characteristics of > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > Underneath > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > methodologies of Chinese medicine.†> > Lü > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > Administration, July 1991 > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > > --- > > > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > > > Thanks, > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <zrosenbe@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Hugo, > > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > > " medical " acupuncturists > > > the FPD > > > what to call ourselves > > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > > our public identity... > > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > > --- > > > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Andrea Beth > > > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > > 635 S. 10th St. > > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > > > Laura > > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Or: Don't Shoot the Messenger This is certainly a fascinating debate that the assumption of a bright future has stirred: a few points of clarification if I may. One, I am first and foremost a practitioner. I do see about 24 patients a week. This is certainly down from the $120,000 a year practice that I maintained in the Berkshires during the 1990s. I reduced my patient load for the purpose of academic medicine mostly involving program design and leadership. I took these actions because academics is a good way for me to give back to the profession. Academic appealed to me so much, I earned a master degree in medical education from USC. Second, I started the article off with chaos theory, stating that it is not possible to make a prediction, but rather, that the moment would likely portend the future. I describe what the present is in terms of the market and developments in the field. Pop artists and sports figures are part of how the public recognizes its interests; the iconic figure is not the cause, it is the sign. More importantly, I use pop figures and government trends to take the pulse of the culture. It isn't enough for us as a profession to focus solely on the patient. We operate in social systems that affect who we are and how we practice. As an example, the German cost of care studies led to incorporation of acupuncture in the medical system for specific problems. This began in October 2000 when the German Federal Committee of Physicians and Health Insurers recommended that special Model Projects on Acupuncture be developed in order to determine the evidence-based role of acupuncture in the treatment of certain illnesses [1]. Trials used in that process included Acupuncture in Routine Care (ARC) [2-8]. Acupuncture Randomized Trials (ART) [9-12] and German Acupuncture (GERAC) studies [1, 13-15]. After the analysis, in April 2006, the German health authorities decided to have the social health insurance funds reimburse for acupuncture treatment of chronic low back pain and chronic osteoarthritis of the knee. The use of acupuncture has risen in the USA over the past decade. The number of visits rose from 27.2 to 79.2 per 1,000 adults between 1997 and 2007 [16]. According to the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS), approximately 3.1 million adults in the United States used acupuncture within the year prior to 2007, a 47% increase from the 2002 NHIS estimate [17]. The increases are related to increasing evidence for acupuncture in the treatment of medical ailments, including chemotherapy-induced nausea, chronic back pain, hypertension and allergic rhinitis [2, 18-23]. It is not that we need Medicare to fund our practices. Rather, Medicare coverage is a sign from the culture that we are on the inside, not on the outside. I would never consider Medicare an option for my private practice. But there are systems and sectors of healthcare where we as a profession can be with Medicare in place. As for terminology, I do not believe we can practice Chinese medicine without professional nomenclature. The language of our discipline is critical for our medical epistemology – how we build knowledge in the clinic. My work is squarely centered in classical literature that is informed by family lineages. In particular, I am focused upon practical application of Su Wen, Mai Jing, Nan Jing, Shang Han Lun and the Bin Hu Mai Xue. And, I am also deeply interested in the family lineage teachings of the Menghe Ding family current. But – I am not deluded into thinking that a workers compensation case manager cares one iota about the nuanced language that informs my practice. If I want to get paid – I provide good assessment data and evidence of my outcomes, in conventional medical terms. We live and operate within a dominant culture that could care less about our professional jargon. While I cannot operate without Chinese medical thought, the providers, patients and legal systems have no need for it. Further, I have an obligation to communicate with my audience on their terms. When I was at Emperor's College, we put in patient acupuncture services into Good Samaritan hospital. But the closure was heavy. They did not permit record keeping with Chinese medical terminology. This took place because of the perceived risk. What they didn't understand, is that there is greater risk when the methods of clinical thought employed by the clinician are not accurately represented. Traditional medical terms are on the horizon in the ICD11 codes. But this could work against us if they are used to marginalize service providers or reimbursements. When I was president of the AAOM, I sent Jeannie Kang to represent this country in those dialogs. Pretty soon, the USA will have ICD10. We are behind the rest of the world regarding these matters. Like it or not – the community acupuncture models are exploding, and they fill a market need. I think that the attempt to create a separate national professional association is dangerous. Divide and conquer – it is a recurrence of the old Alliance. I don't like it, I think the business model fills needs and they will be met. As for branding – the public knows acupuncture. They kind of know Chinese medicine. When it comes to Oriental medicine, there is little knowledge. I could care less what we call ourselves – but we better figure it out and do it soon. What I did do is ask this community to come forward and participate in a conversation about branding itself. I put out some thoughts, but I can easily go with Chinese medicine. It is not my future, nor is it my call. That belongs to each member of this community. The definition of who we are and how we define ourselves is up to this community. It is good to see the conversation and debate going on. We have to be there and present in the dialog in order to have our views be the future of the profession. Otherwise, it will be defined by market forces! You can argue about speculations regarding the future. The present is what it is and if you don't like it change it. Don't shoot the messenger. Warmly, Will Morris PS - here are some citations for use in your work if you need them. 1. Cummings, M., Modellvorhaben Akupunktur - a summary of the ART, ARC and GERAC trials. Acupunct Med, 2009. 27(1): p. 26-30. 2. Willich, S.N., et al., Cost-effectiveness of acupuncture treatment in patients with chronic neck pain. Pain, 2006. 125(1-2): p. 107-13. 3. Brinkhaus, B., et al., Acupuncture in patients with allergic rhinitis: a pragmatic randomized trial. Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol, 2008. 101(5): p. 535-43. 4. Jena, S., et al., Acupuncture in patients with headache. Cephalalgia, 2008. 28(9): p. 969-79. 5. Reinhold, T., et al., Quality of life and cost-effectiveness of acupuncture treatment in patients with osteoarthritis pain. Eur J Health Econ, 2008. 9(3): p. 209-19. 6. Witt, C.M., et al., Cost-effectiveness of acupuncture treatment in patients with headache. Cephalalgia, 2008. 28(4): p. 334-45. 7. Witt, C.M., et al., Acupuncture in patients with dysmenorrhea: a randomized study on clinical effectiveness and cost-effectiveness in usual care. Am J Obstet Gynecol, 2008. 198(2): p. 166 e1-8. 8. Streng, A., et al., Effectiveness and tolerability of acupuncture compared with metoprolol in migraine prophylaxis. Headache, 2006. 46(10): p. 1492-502. 9. Linde, K., et al., Acupuncture for patients with migraine: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA, 2005. 293(17): p. 2118-25. 10. Brinkhaus, B., et al., Acupuncture in patients with chronic low back pain: a randomized controlled trial. Arch Intern Med, 2006. 166(4): p. 450-7. 11. Melchart, D., et al., Acupuncture in patients with tension-type headache: randomised controlled trial. Bmj, 2005. 331(7513): p. 376-82. 12. Witt, C., et al., Acupuncture in patients with osteoarthritis of the knee: a randomised trial. Lancet, 2005. 366(9480): p. 136-43. 13. Haake, M., et al., German Acupuncture Trials (GERAC) for Chronic Low Back Pain: Randomized, Multicenter, Blinded, Parallel-Group Trial With 3 Groups. Arch Intern Med, 2007. 167(17): p. 1892-1898. 14. Endres, H.G., et al., Acupuncture for tension-type headache: a multicentre, sham-controlled, patient-and observer-blinded, randomised trial. J Headache Pain, 2007. 8(5): p. 306-14. 15. Diener, H.C., et al., Efficacy of acupuncture for the prophylaxis of migraine: a multicentre randomised controlled clinical trial. Lancet Neurol, 2006. 5(4): p. 310-6. 16. Wolsko, P.M., et al., Insurance coverage, medical conditions, and visits to alternative medicine providers: results of a national survey. Arch Intern Med, 2002. 162(3): p. 281-7. 17. Barnes PM, B.B., Nahin RL., Complementary and alternative medicine use among adults and children: United States. 2007, Natl Health Stat Report. p. 1-23. 18. Ratcliffe, J., et al., A randomised controlled trial of acupuncture care for persistent low back pain: cost effectiveness analysis. Bmj, 2006. 333(7569): p. 626. 19. Witt, C.M., et al., Pragmatic randomized trial evaluating the clinical and economic effectiveness of acupuncture for chronic low back pain. Am J Epidemiol, 2006. 164(5): p. 487-96. 20. Witt, C.M., et al., Cost-Effectiveness of Acupuncture in Women and Men With Allergic Rhinitis: A Randomized Controlled Study in Usual Care. Am. J. Epidemiol., 2009. 169(5): p. 562-571. 21. Witt, C.M., et al., Acupuncture in patients with dysmenorrhea: a randomized study on clinical effectiveness and cost-effectiveness in usual care. Am J Obstet Gynecol, 2008. 198(2): p. 161-168. 22. Wonderling, D., et al., Cost effectiveness analysis of a randomised trial of acupuncture for chronic headache in primary care. BMJ, 2004: p. bmj.38033.896505.EB. 23. Witt CM, R.T., Jena S, Brinkhaus B, Willich SN, Cost-effectiveness of acupuncture treatment in patients with headache. Cephalalgia, 2008. 28(4): p. 334-335. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Richard, You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. First, there was a couple of studies conducted on the DAOM and more recently the FPD, no? Second, the data do show support for both DAOM and FPD (especially from the students, the future of the profession), no? Third, it has been reported that about 600 Asian practitioners in CA showed up to give their support for raising our professional standards, no? The answer is that all of these are accurate statements. Please list your source that shows things contrary. There was a PT dry needling seminar that was cancelled due to insufficient enrollment, so all is not lost. Many hospitals are looking to hire more LAc's and not medical acupuncturists, PT's, etc. I know of many LAc's that are working in hospitals. Where are you getting your information that we have been replaced? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:56:58 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Michael I and a sufficient amount of other stake holders would take exception to this statement. That's just your opinion. There are many of us who are in opposition to FPD so lets not propagandize this by the few who are speaking out in certain e-mail arenas. Certain accrediting organizations have no business ethically taking one side or the other regarding FPD. Yet it appears that some are by circumlocution appearing on such behalf. As to so-called other professionals replacing us. Ahhummm.....it appears that others whether professionals or otherwise have already replaced us. Where have you been? The horse has been out of the barn for many many years and is just now being noticed such as PTs doing acupuncture under so-called dry needling and rolling it up into PT billing codes. What makes the difference is the kind of results you get. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Lastly, the recent polls of an entry FPD and previously DAOM, have been showing more and more support for this direction to be taken. If we deny the future of the profession, there will be a decline in students and practitioners as well. This will not be a viable profession at that point except for the few that are able to maintain things. Other professionals will replace us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Richard, This is part of the basic testing that we need to know well. Schools do not spend much time on this as they tend to teach to the western module (NCCAOM) for medical info. Similarly, I have noticed that students are getting stuck in theory over clinical reality. Points are often chosen, simply by herbalized function and not if they actually make an observed change in the body. Palpation is not a focus either. I hate to say it but maybe we need to create a curriculum, based upon a more solid clinical experience, to help the schools improve upon things. It does appear that they listen little to actual practitioners and more to their hired minions (thought you might like this reference). There is a lot of room for improvement with the current education, which focuses a bit too much on book learning over clinical reality. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:46:20 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Michael What AOM school today FAILS to teach how to take blood pressure? WOW...I cant believe that such a failure exists. Its what I said a few weeks ago......if that's the case......the schools need to do a LOT better job in the basics which are already there or certainly should have been. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Hi Tom Agreed that we need and actually in the states DO have sufficient western medical basic training. But some want overkill. Every state may be different in terms of the statutory language for the practice act (law). Here in Florida the law says what is below posted. Now IF the legislature wishes to ADD lots more of western medicine under the misnomer of " biomedicine " that's fine and dandy BUT the law has to be changed first. At which point we would be as in China and should receive an MD license instead. Regards, Richard 457.102 Definitions.--As used in this chapter: (1) " Acupuncture " means a form of primary health care, based on traditional Chinese medical concepts and modern oriental medical techniques, that employs acupuncture diagnosis and treatment, as well as adjunctive therapies and diagnostic techniques, for the promotion, maintenance, and restoration of health and the prevention of disease. Acupuncture shall include, but not be limited to, the insertion of acupuncture needles and the application of moxibustion to specific areas of the human body and the use of electroacupuncture, Qi Gong, oriental massage, herbal therapy, dietary guidelines, and other adjunctive therapies, as defined by board rule. In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:44:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, tom.verhaeghe writes: I don't know, Laura. Let us not forget that in China CM doctors also study western medicine now. Of course they did not do so in the past, simply because it didn't exist. But there have always been influences - and it probably is rightfully so that the most popular medical system to date (= western medicine) influences chinese medicine to some extent. One important question is: if we do not know anything about western medicine, how will we know when to refer when we have a patient that may present with a medical emergency? I still do not have a satisfying answer to that question. Or they need to be screened first by our western medical counterparts before they come to us, or we have to refer them before we start treating them. Examples: brain tumour, gall bladder stones, kidney stones, rupturing appendix,. Also dermatological diseases: modern Chinese medical treatment follows the western diagnoses (they have evolved from the original Chinese diagnoses). If someone does have a satisfying answer to the referral question, I'd be glad to hear it. I know hospitals also miss out on a correct diagnosis. But does that pardon us from a serious responsibility towards our patients to always seek the best help for them? Of course I know that we can treat gallbladder stones. But I only did that after a western diagnosis that also gave information about the size of the stones, for example. So my point would be that we do need a biomedical basis alongside our cm knowledge. What do others think? Tom Verhaeghe Stationsplein 59 8770 Ingelmunster www.chinese-www.chinese-ww _____ _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) [_Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) ] On Behalf Of heylaurag dinsdag 5 januari 2010 23:45 _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Yes, I agree with Hugo--this medicine with its thousands of years of accumulated knowledge is more than enough for one person to learn. We can treat soooo many more issues successfully the more Chinese medicine knowledge we know and to dilute our focus by forcing us to learn a lot about western medicine makes no sense. We are NOT better practitioners for knowing western medicine. It really isn't necessary to know anything about western medicine to be an exceptional practitioner. But it IS necessary to know as much Chinese medicine as possible to be an exceptional Chinese medicine practitioner. Laura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Appears as previously stated SPECIFICALLY in Florida (1800 hrs circa 1994) than the norm now (2800 hrs) and there were NEVER any cases of harm being done. Independence with a few exceptions existed with the old two year program in most states. To some degree MORE education is like beating the already dead horse. Clean up the Masters program and possibly add a few more hours of western medicine and that's all that is needed. But it appears.... that won't bring in the big bucks for these so-called 4 year independent night-trade-schools. They or whomever controls them will not be happy until the entrance fee is $100,000.00. In a message dated 1/6/2010 7:51:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: If we want to remain independent, as we are in most states, then we need to have sufficient standards to know about red flag conditions and appropriate referral. Otherwise, we will start to see practitioners in jail, muich like the so-called alternative practitioners that make claims to treat any and everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Michael Now you are talking. Its what I suggested a short time ago in response to lurking Dort Bigg. 1) Just because the committees have some sort of mixture of PhDs does not make them knowledgeable about what should be taught. 2) Schools as the one I mentioned PUSH through students who should have been flunked out of school. But hey MONEY rules. Instead of pushing for an FPD these agencies should be holding schools toes to the fire while they clean their own house by getting rid of the majority of their own staff and hire seasoned practitioners. There are enough out there. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 8:23:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, This is part of the basic testing that we need to know well. Schools do not spend much time on this as they tend to teach to the western module (NCCAOM) for medical info. Similarly, I have noticed that students are getting stuck in theory over clinical reality. Points are often chosen, simply by herbalized function and not if they actually make an observed change in the body. Palpation is not a focus either. I hate to say it but maybe we need to create a curriculum, based upon a more solid clinical experience, to help the schools improve upon things. It does appear that they listen little to actual practitioners and more to their hired minions (thought you might like this reference). There is a lot of room for improvement with the current education, which focuses a bit too much on book learning over clinical reality. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:46:20 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Michael What AOM school today FAILS to teach how to take blood pressure? WOW...I cant believe that such a failure exists. Its what I said a few weeks ago......if that's the case......the schools need to do a LOT better job in the basics which are already there or certainly should have been. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. And we don't get hung up on one or the other! Simon Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Mike: I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: --Mike- We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. --- Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: " In recent years, the unique characteristics of Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of severe crisis and chaotic actions. Underneath the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and methodologies of Chinese medicine.” Lü Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM Administration, July 1991 The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zaranski Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > --- > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Hugo, > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > > the FPD > > what to call ourselves > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > our public identity... > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > --- > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > < > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > Andrea Beth > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > 635 S. 10th St. > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > Laura > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > Mark Z > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Practitioners like you Zev and Ken Rose to name but a few........ should be the practitioners governing these accrediting agencies so we can finally get at the ideal education and put a stop to these attempts to over biomedicalize and water down Chinese medicine. Richard In a message dated 1/6/2010 12:14:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: Good in principle, but one major problem. For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > Simon > > > > Chinese Medicine > subincor > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > --Mike- > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > --- > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > " In > recent years, the unique characteristics of > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > Underneath > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > Lü > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > Administration, July 1991 > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ________________________________ > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: >> >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. >> --- >> >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. >> >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. >> >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. >> >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. >> >> Thanks, >> Hugo >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >> http://www.middlemedicine.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> <zrosenbe >> Chinese Medicine >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> Hugo, >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. >> >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. >> >> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: >> >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: >>> >>> --Andrea Beth- >>> >>> We are not of unified opinion on: >>> " medical " acupuncturists >>> the FPD >>> what to call ourselves >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for >>> our public identity... >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood >>> --- >>> >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: >>> >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? >>> >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . >>> >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! >>> >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: >>> >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) >>> >>> I hope I amuse you guys. >>> >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. >>> >>> Happy 2010 everyone! >>> Hugo >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Hugo Ramiro >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> < >>> Chinese Medicine >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. >>> >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? >>> >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. >>> >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Andrea Beth >>> >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center >>> 635 S. 10th St. >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 >>> (928) 274-1373 >>> >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: >>> >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. com >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM >>> >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: >>>> >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. >>>> >>>> Laura >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. >>> >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. >>> >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. >>> >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? >>> >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? >>> >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. >>> >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. >>> >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. >>> >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. >>> >>> Mark Z >>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>> >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com >>> >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia >>> >>> To change your email delivery settings, click, http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. >>> >>> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. >>> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Links >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >>> >>> >> >> >> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine >> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine >> San Diego, Ca. 92122 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> --- >> >> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com >> >> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia >> >> and adjust accordingly. >> >> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. >> >> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Good in principle, but one major problem. For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > Simon > > > > Chinese Medicine > subincor > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > --Mike- > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > --- > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > " In > recent years, the unique characteristics of > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > Underneath > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > Lü > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > Administration, July 1991 > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ________________________________ > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > zaranski > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: >> >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. >> --- >> >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. >> >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. >> >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. >> >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. >> >> Thanks, >> Hugo >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >> http://www.middlemedicine.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> <zrosenbe >> Chinese Medicine >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >> >> Hugo, >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. >> >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. >> >> >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: >> >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: >>> >>> --Andrea Beth- >>> >>> We are not of unified opinion on: >>> " medical " acupuncturists >>> the FPD >>> what to call ourselves >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for >>> our public identity... >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood >>> --- >>> >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: >>> >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? >>> >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . >>> >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! >>> >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: >>> >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) >>> >>> I hope I amuse you guys. >>> >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. >>> >>> Happy 2010 everyone! >>> Hugo >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Hugo Ramiro >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> < >>> Chinese Medicine >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. >>> >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? >>> >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. >>> >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Andrea Beth >>> >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center >>> 635 S. 10th St. >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 >>> (928) 274-1373 >>> >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: >>> >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. >>> >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM >>> >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: >>>> >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. >>>> >>>> Laura >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. >>> >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. >>> >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. >>> >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? >>> >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? >>> >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. >>> >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. >>> >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. >>> >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. >>> >>> Mark Z >>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ >>> >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com >>> >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia >>> >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. >>> >>> >>> >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 On the subject of taking blood pressure... this is something I was trained to do in school, and I am glad for it, but I use it as part of the way I practice TCM, rather than as part of a routine medical screening. My patients are always surprised when I take their blood pressure, especially if I have not done this on their first visit, and/or blood pressure or heart issues are not a chief concern. It is something I like to consider when patients report certain abrupt changes, or a set of symptoms that makes me want to weigh this (western medical) information, too. Aside from surprising them, I also know that they think more highly of me, and my skills and knowledge, because I can and will do this - even though I see a hint of fear in their eyes when they see the stethescope and sphygmomanometer. Further, their doctors are always surprised when I send their patients back to them to examine their heart, when a pulse abnormality or dramatic change from the patient's norm appears during pulse palpation. More precisely, their doctors are surprised that I am able to describe these abnormalities in ways that helps them know what to look for - and I am using words that describe TCM concepts but are understandable to a " layperson " (in this case, the MD). They are amazed that it is possible for me to detect these abnormalities at all... with so crude an instrument as my mere fingertips... For me, the stethescope is a CYA (Cover Your A**) tool. If I have any slight glimmer of a thought that a patient might be developing a heart or blood pressure issue, I use the stethescope so I can give their a doctor a " number " (blood pressure reading) when referring them for evaluation. The information I gain from pulse palpation is not the same (I can observe high and low blood pressure, but not specific numbers), but the information I glean from palpation is much richer. Usually, I will use my stethescope only after first observing high or low blood pressure on palpating/listening to the patient's pulse. TCM doesn't much depend on the use of numbers in tracking patient's progress, but western medicine does, extensively. I don't want to be the medical equivalent of an accountant. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Wed, 1/6/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Chinese Traditional Medicine Wednesday, January 6, 2010, 9:23 AM Richard, This is part of the basic testing that we need to know well. Schools do not spend much time on this as they tend to teach to the western module (NCCAOM) for medical info. Similarly, I have noticed that students are getting stuck in theory over clinical reality. Points are often chosen, simply by herbalized function and not if they actually make an observed change in the body. Palpation is not a focus either. I hate to say it but maybe we need to create a curriculum, based upon a more solid clinical experience, to help the schools improve upon things. It does appear that they listen little to actual practitioners and more to their hired minions (thought you might like this reference). There is a lot of room for improvement with the current education, which focuses a bit too much on book learning over clinical reality. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 16:46:20 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Michael What AOM school today FAILS to teach how to take blood pressure? WOW...I cant believe that such a failure exists. Its what I said a few weeks ago......if that's the case......the schools need to do a LOT better job in the basics which are already there or certainly should have been. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 4:41:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: We are mixing several ideas together. On the educational side, yes, I do acknowledge that our profession needs to have a better understanding of the current language that science and medicine uses, this is both for greater participation (communication with other providers) and to measure clinical progress. Greatly educated work force is what we see from Chinese and Korean practitioners that come here. For example, most students at OM schools do not understand basic ortho/neuro tests (do we not treat painful conditions of the spine and extremities?) or how to take blood pressure readings. These are basic, and we should know how to perform these. Along this line of thought, I am curious as to the spinal treatment center at Samra, which appears to be working in this arena to help patients with spinal problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2010 Report Share Posted January 6, 2010 Zev and others, There is also the issue of adequate student development. Have there been any new changes to the physical development side of skillsets (palpation) that is now improved in your classes? Any suggestions on instructional ideas that might help improve this? What is PCOM doing toward this end? Also, I would like to read some comments on programs adding in more Japanese theory and clinical content to their teaching. Are students getting better clinical results with the simplified focus on 4 patterns (sho)? As this is a tactile medicine, I am most interested in hearing from faculty and student experiences with these. BTW, usage of Google is not likely a legally acceptable resource for reliable info to CYA. If it were, then we would have all our patients use a software program to decide what it is they have. The software can then accept the liability for missed diagnosis. I agree with Simon that this is not an either or thing but one which demands we do both. Like I have stated previously, we need to increase the academic rigor of these courses (east and west) as well as better clinical exposure to various conditions. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Wed, 6 Jan 2010 12:12:57 -0800 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Good in principle, but one major problem. > > For all of us, western medicine is one click of the mouse away. Any drug, condition, treatment and reams of information can be googled. It is easy to find biomedical courses. And we are steeped in the culture of western medicine. > > Chinese medicine is more difficult to grasp on its own terms. Some Chinese language skill is necessary, especially to find the resources necessary and research from mainland China. There is a culture and style to the medicine, and a history, that is not being absorbed adequately. Chinese medicine requires literacy in the classical literature, and mastery of a unique logical system. I'm not worried about Chinese medicine practitioners learning biomedicine, I'm worried about us learning Chinese medicine adequately so that we don't end up with a watered down version of it that is highly biomedicalized. > > > On Jan 6, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Simon Cairns wrote: > > > > > The dominant medical culture in which we live is that of Western Medicine, that is something we cannot change. In order to understand it and work with it,and around it, we have to learn it's language. That doesn't mean we give up our own, on the contrary, it means we all become bi-lingual. One foot in our own Chinese medicine and the other in Western medicine and that we move seemlessly between the two, the ancient and the new. > > > > And we don't get hung up on one or the other! > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > subincor > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 20:19:51 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike: > > > > I honestly feel nervous when I hear the following, although I am not sure i am reading you right: > > > > --Mike- > > We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western > > medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger > > knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > --- > > > > Which asian-trained counterparts? My lineage teacher who received no western medical training? Why do we need the larger knowledge base for expanding our treatment options? How many of us can claim to be using CM to its full, or close to full, effectiveness? If the answer is " no, I'm not " , the solution is not " tack some western medicine on " . > > > > I also ask you, Mike, to not forget that some of our asian-trained counterparts have some very harsh things to say about CM in the present: > > > > " In > > recent years, the unique characteristics of > > Chinese medicine, its advantages over Western medicine, and its > > standards of academic excellence have not been developed according to > > the wishes of the people, but have rather been tossed into a state of > > severe crisis and chaotic actions. > > Underneath > > the bright and cheap glitter at the surface, the essence and the > > characteristics of Chinese medicine are being metamorphosed and > > annihilated at a most perturbing rate. The primary expression of this > > crisis is the Westernisation of all guiding principles and > > methodologies of Chinese medicine.‰ > > > > Lü > > Bingkui, former director of the PRC's Ministry of TCM > > Administration, July 1991 > > The history of Ayurveda in India is almost identical. Both China and India ran an all-out government experiment to modernise, scientise and integrate their medical systems. And both have had almost identical results: poor quality training, students who don't really understand the medicine, yet have quite a bit of western medical training, but, grotesquely, not enough to be western medical doctors. The final results leading to " doctors " who don't know how to treat using the indigenous medical system and maybe don't even want to treat with it, and a growing understanding that soemwhere along the line a grievous error was committed. > > We can learn a lot from the mistakes committed in Asia. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tue, 5 January, 2010 10:53:02 > > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > > zaranski > > Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. > > > > They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " > > > > Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " > > > > Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. > > > > If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! > > > > If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. > > > > Mark Z > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > >> > >> Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > >> > >> --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > >> Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > >> assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > >> occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > >> elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > >> not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > >> accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > >> must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > >> --- > >> > >> To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > >> > >> To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > >> > >> We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > >> > >> On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Hugo > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <zrosenbe > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > >> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >> > >> Hugo, > >> I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > >> > >> Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > >> > >> > >> On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Andrea Beth and all: > >>> > >>> --Andrea Beth- > >>> > >>> We are not of unified opinion on: > >>> " medical " acupuncturists > >>> the FPD > >>> what to call ourselves > >>> whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > >>> acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > >>> categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > >>> and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > >>> our public identity... > >>> and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > >>> --- > >>> > >>> From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > >>> > >>> Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > >>> > >>> Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > >>> Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > >>> > >>> And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > >>> > >>> Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > >>> > >>> Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > >>> Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > >>> Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > >>> Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > >>> Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > >>> > >>> I hope I amuse you guys. > >>> > >>> So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > >>> > >>> Happy 2010 everyone! > >>> Hugo > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> Hugo Ramiro > >>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >>> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> < > >>> Chinese Medicine > >>> Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > >>> > >>> Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > >>> > >>> Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > >>> > >>> If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Andrea Beth > >>> > >>> Traditional Oriental Medicine > >>> Happy Hours in the CALM Center > >>> 635 S. 10th St. > >>> Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > >>> (928) 274-1373 > >>> > >>> --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> > >>> zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > >>> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > >>> > >>> Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > >>> > >>> <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > >>>> > >>>> Laura > >>> Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > >>> > >>> The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > >>> > >>> Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > >>> > >>> The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > >>> > >>> Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > >>> > >>> I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > >>> > >>> I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > >>> > >>> We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > >>> > >>> Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > >>> > >>> Mark Z > >>> > >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------ > >>> > >>> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > >>> > >>> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > >>> > >>> http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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