Guest guest Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 John, You hit the nail on the head. Knowing the data of pattern discrimination, points, channels, herbs and prescriptions needs the broader canvas of the theoretical foundations rooted in the teachings of great physicians ancient and modern. This is what gives meaning and inspiration to Chinese medicine. On Dec 14, 2009, at 10:47 PM, wrote: > I think that TCM is like looking at a pointalist painting from six inches > off of the canvas, > instead of taking a few steps back to see the big picture. We have all of > the dots to memorize, repeat and all of the steps to memorize and repeat, > without the connections and the meaning between thousands of years of > conscious and subconscious development. > That's why it's essential to make the classics the axis of all of our work, > where the spokes coming off of them are up to interpretation, innovation and > practice. > > K > > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > > > > Absolutely, I agree with you. The living stream of Chinese medicine is > > rooted in the classical literature. But it seems in this discussion overall > > we are seeking for a brand name for what we do, and the term " TCM " didn't > > appear until the modern era. . > > > > > > > > On Dec 14, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Eric Rosenbush wrote: > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 The problem of naming something so vast as this medicine brings to mind Ch1 of Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching). One might surrender to the fact that the timeless beauty and ever-blossoming diversity of our medicine simply cannot be captured by a simple name? (*The dao that can be named is not the eternal dao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things. Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations. Yet mystery and manifestations arise from the same source. This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. * <Stephen Mitchell's translation> another translation, with chinese text for reference -- http://www.thetao.info/english/page1.htm) ~edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi Don, Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Its very clear to me that you are a creative thinker. I would love to know more about how you bill through a doctor, and in particular how you convince them to get on board with you (eg: what do they have to gain, aside from the obvious benefit to their patients'?). I have often thought about connecting with an MD so that we could help each other benefit from the other's medicine. For instance, there are times when chinese herbs for an acute condition give some people insomnia and the herbs that would help would be too tonifying for the current condition. I would love to have an MD around who could prescribe a sleeping pill for a week so that we can clear up the acute condition. If you would prefer to talk about this privately, I would love to hear from you: heylaurag Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and teaching at PCOM) > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a little. > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this satisfies you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. djs > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a doctorate! > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate anything that you can share. > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated Medical Systems. > > > > I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they did not make the art a part of themselves. > > > > > > > > Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > johnkokko@ > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes... we all practice medicine, > > but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > > > > Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > > We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what we > > learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 millennia > > of changes. > > That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most honest > > and comprehensive name for what we do. > > > > K > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined is > > > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > > > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with our > > > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > > > > r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get better > > > very quickly. Oh semantics... > > > > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > johnkokko@ > > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > > > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > > > " Global " ? GCM? > > > > > > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > > > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of people > > > who > > > developed the classics which are the foundation of > > > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > > > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > > > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > > > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best that > > > we've got. > > > > > > K > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Revolution@ > > > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge is > > > to > > > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its past. > > > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made in > > > the > > > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > > > > according to many different value systems across cultures at different > > > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and what > > > we > > > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > > > medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 If you only perform acupuncture and internal medicine it will do you no good to bill through a doctor since you will not make much money doing just acupuncture and CM. That is the reason they do no want us in the hospitals. To get a hospital or MD interested in you, you must have some type of financial track record to present to the physician or hospital. Most of our associates cannot produce the tax records or bank financial statements to prove this type of track record. I can produce these documents. The only way you can get an MD or hospital on board is through the mighty dollar. I give them a percentage. But you must be careful how you do this because it is illegal to share percentages in many cases. Therefore, I give a nice percentage for their billing expertise and department. In other words, you must rent the MD's license or lease yourself or your assistants through the MD. I have a full-time lawyer on staff and he takes care of these things for me. As for needing the MD for temporary presciptions, I have never used their services in that way. However, I do refer red flag cases to them when necessary. I also have never needed them to refer anyone to me, although that might be nice if patients are not refering to you, although that's another problem. My patients refer back to be in a big way. Indeed, I've had patients come to me from Russia, Germany, Canada, Italy, Trinidad and Tobago, and many other overseas countries along with patients coming from many states. Many also drive 3 -4 hours within my current state to see me and they often come 2 to 3 times a week in the begining. My patients get better very quickly and very dramatically from the first day of treatment. I do not use just acupuncture and herbal medicine. I use integral medicine that is my own proprietary methodology. This is what I can bill through insurance. Mostly, the patient pays cash for the acupuncture but insurance pays the rest. I also have a money back policy. If I can't relieve 50% or more of your pain or active symtoms at the end of the first treatment, you don't pay one thin dime. Surprisingly, I've only retuned money 4 times in 7 years of practice. In summary, it probably won't do you any good to team up with an MD armed only with the knowledge you get from our OM medical schools. However, I am looking for AOM practitioners to train in my methodologies to place under MDs or hospitals. The catch is, you often must be willing to move to take part in this. The good thing is, you will not starve to death doing what I do. Hope this helps. I am quite surprised at how few people are interested in what I am doing. It is no wonder we are in such bad shape politically. The world is our apple. All we have to do is simply pluck them. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine heylaurag Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:47:39 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Don, Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Its very clear to me that you are a creative thinker. I would love to know more about how you bill through a doctor, and in particular how you convince them to get on board with you (eg: what do they have to gain, aside from the obvious benefit to their patients'?). I have often thought about connecting with an MD so that we could help each other benefit from the other's medicine. For instance, there are times when chinese herbs for an acute condition give some people insomnia and the herbs that would help would be too tonifying for the current condition. I would love to have an MD around who could prescribe a sleeping pill for a week so that we can clear up the acute condition. If you would prefer to talk about this privately, I would love to hear from you: heylaurag Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > I really did not know what I was doing until about 3 years ago. I had been perfecting my MET/integrated medicine methodology and had treated about 1000 hours or so without any remuneration. I could not see charging a patient when I couldn't guarantee the results. After that initial experimentation period I could consistantly (95%+) get resolution of any pain, neuropathy, or pathology and decided I would begin charging patients. At first I took only cash patients and charged $250 per treatment; and I got paid, too. But I noticed I was only getting a particular class of patient and felt that what I did should be available to all who desired it. (at this time I was practicing in San Diego and teaching at PCOM) > > > > In 2007 I got an opportunity to move back home to Louisiana and I took a job offered by an MD. These folks burned me very badly and they stole money and they tried to steal my methodology. However, what I learned from this is that I could actually bill insurance for my treatments (that lesson cost me about $200,000 or more). Thereafter, I teamed up with another MD and billed insurance under his/her license; and got paid. I also got a contract to service 29 hospitals but it has taken be around 8 months to figure out how to bill. I now have that figured out and have hired my first AOM practitioner and she has just completed her training with me and I will put her in our first hospital. But I have digressed a little. > > > > I was able to bill right at $500,000 my first year working by myself, but had to have two assistants helping me. I collected 80% of my billing (which is real good, by the way). You must also understand this. The reason hospitals do not want acupuncture is that there is no money in it at $50 to $80 per treatment. Hospitals are a business and they need to make money. When I treat a patient I get a minimum of $150 up to more than $400 for some patients. The downside is that it takes me 1 to 2.5 hours to treat one patient (now you know why I need assistants trained in my copyrighted methodology). I am very stingy in who I show my methodology and have a full time lawyer on my staff to take care of contracts. I don't give it away. My patients get well in a dramatic and profound way; even those with " irreversible " nerve damage. The results are immediate and if a patient does not get the promised results, they do not pay. Needless to say, I get paid. In the last year I have returned money 4 times out of over 3000 patient visits. > > > > I now have another AOM practitioner working with me and we will see what I can bill and collect now; however, it is yet to be seen. > > > > So folks, that's it in a nut shell. I answered this same question last year on this same site and I doubt that I will answer it again. Hope this satisfies you. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac > > > > P.S. As for the question " Do you use herbs? " The answer is yes. But not nearly as often and I know longer use a compounding pharmacy. I use teapill/patents. The methodology I use precludes my having to rely on herbs as much, but I use them when I must. The patient must get better or I don't get paid so I do whatever must be done to get the desired results. djs > > > > Chinese Medicine > heylaurag > Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:32:30 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don, With that much education, I suspect you are in a similar position as me--LOTS of student loans. I paid for my undergrad plus a masters in social work from an expensive ivy league school plus the dual masters in acupuncture and herbs with student loans. Then I was dumb enough not to start paying on it right after I graduated (actually I couldn't afford to). So I also accumulated massive interest. But...I really want to get a doctorate! > > But I do work in a very deep way with the herbs, so I am not completely convinced that a doctorate would educate me more than my own schooling by practicing the medicine. Any thoughts on this? Also, how do you see enough patients to make that much money if you also practice herbs (which take time)? Do you have employees? Do you bill insurance? How much time do you spend with each patient? I'd like to learn from you, so I appreciate anything that you can share. > > Working on taxes this year I am dismayed to discover just how little I actually make when I take my student loan payments into consideration. But I turn down new patients all the time because I don't feel I have the time to see them. So I must be doing something wrong. > > Thanks! > > Laura > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, definitions. Who defines what is being discussed? I practice integral medicine no matter what one may believe. That's what I call it and that is what my patients believe and that's what I do. I don't follow any " man " such a Lonny, Master Tong, etc. I follow my own path in finding the answers to our wonderful medicine and I make it what I will. This is what I do. If I followed a particular man or style, then that's what I would be doing. But I practice Dr. Snow's Acupuncture and Integrated Medical Systems. > > > > I make a mid-six figure income doing what I do so I'm doing something right. I went the extra mile and earned the DAOM, MPH, MS, etc. so I am relatively educated. And no matter what anyone says about that degree (esp. those that haven't actually done it), we delved into the classics at a much deeper level that the master's program. I'm a better practitioner for it. And most of all, I have a very high success in treatment rate which is why I have a booming practice. One is a technician until he makes the medicine his own. That applies to martial arts as well. I've seen many so-called masters that were not because they did not make the art a part of themselves. > > > > > > > > Well, these are only my opinions and I guess we all have one. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > johnkokko@ > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:24:06 -0800 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes... we all practice medicine, > > but " integral " and " integrative " medicine are 2 different birds. > > > > Very few people practice " integral " medicine, as Lonny can elaborate on. > > We all practice some form of " integrative " medicine, because that's what we > > learned in schools... a combination of many styles derived from 2 millennia > > of changes. > > That's why I opted for " integrative Chinese medicine " being the most honest > > and comprehensive name for what we do. > > > > K > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:18 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Actually, what we practice is medicine. What you appear to want defined is > > > the style, type, or founding root of what we do. I practice integral > > > medicine. I apply TCM/OM theory to MET and SCENAR then combine it with our > > > TCM using specific methodology. But as f > > > > r as my patients are concerned, I practice medicine because they get better > > > very quickly. Oh semantics... > > > > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > johnkokko@ > > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 06:12:13 -0800 > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Global medicine sounds too " global " , > > > Chinese medicine might sound too " local " . > > > " Global " ? GCM? > > > > > > I actually like calling what we do Chinese medicine, > > > because it gives credit to the myriad of tribes/clans/villages of people > > > who > > > developed the classics which are the foundation of > > > Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese/European/American acupuncture and formula > > > systems. We can break down the word " Chinese " , which is probably not > > > sufficient to describe these originators, since even today, China > > > geographically holds over 50 distinct ethnic groups, but it's the best that > > > we've got. > > > > > > K > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:51 AM, Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > How about naming our medicine modern " Global Medicine? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > Revolution@ > > > > Sun, 13 Dec 2009 01:18:12 +0000 > > > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > > > I'm happy calling it Chinese medicine. But I think the real challenge is > > > to > > > > find a name that references it's present and future rather than its past. > > > > Many of the most significant advances in the medicine have been made in > > > the > > > > West in the last 60 years. It's a global medicine now being practiced > > > > according to many different value systems across cultures at different > > > > levels of development. It's interesting to consider who we are and what > > > we > > > > are really doing. Most of us aren't, in fact, practicing " Chinese " > > > medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2009 Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Hi Don: Reading between the lines what you are saying is along with acupuncture you use modalities that a western physician, nurse or therapist might use and its billed under the MD so you can get the highest possible revenue because the insurance company is viewing it as under the MD? Is this an accurate understanding? thanks, david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 The gain could simply be profits, reputation or ? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine heylaurag Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:47:39 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Don, Thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. Its very clear to me that you are a creative thinker. I would love to know more about how you bill through a doctor, and in particular how you convince them to get on board with you (eg: what do they have to gain, aside from the obvious benefit to their patients'?). I have often thought about connecting with an MD so that we could help each other benefit from the other's medicine. For instance, there are times when chinese herbs for an acute condition give some people insomnia and the herbs that would help would be too tonifying for the current condition. I would love to have an MD around who could prescribe a sleeping pill for a week so that we can clear up the acute condition. If you would prefer to talk about this privately, I would love to hear from you: heylaurag _______________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 That's pretty much what I've been saying. I see what I do as needle-less acupuncture but it is billed as physical medicine. The equipment I use has been around since the late 70's and 80's, except for the SCENARs. The only difference is the results that I get compared to those of PT's and MDs. That's the reason for my patient load. Don SNow Chinese Medicine singlewhip2001 Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:54:50 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hi Don: Reading between the lines what you are saying is along with acupuncture you use modalities that a western physician, nurse or therapist might use and its billed under the MD so you can get the highest possible revenue because the insurance company is viewing it as under the MD? Is this an accurate understanding? thanks, david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Don, How hard was it to find an MD willing to work with you and did they accept your theoretical concepts quickly? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:07:11 -0600 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > That's pretty much what I've been saying. I see what I do as needle-less acupuncture but it is billed as physical medicine. The equipment I use has been around since the late 70's and 80's, except for the SCENARs. The only difference is the results that I get compared to those of PT's and MDs. That's the reason for my patient load. > > > > Don SNow > > > > Chinese Medicine > singlewhip2001 > Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:54:50 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don: > > Reading between the lines what you are saying is along with acupuncture you use modalities that a western physician, nurse or therapist might use and its billed under the MD so you can get the highest possible revenue because the insurance company is viewing it as under the MD? Is this an accurate understanding? > > thanks, > david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I don't really think they care whether the patient improves or not. It appears to be about money and how much they can make. I have yet to find an MD that wants to have acupuncture in their clinics because they believe in it, although I know some AOM associates that have found MD's to work with that appear to be open. I've found it is about the dollar. Don Snow Chinese Traditional Medicine naturaldoc1 Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:41:16 +0000 RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Don, How hard was it to find an MD willing to work with you and did they accept your theoretical concepts quickly? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:07:11 -0600 > RE: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > That's pretty much what I've been saying. I see what I do as needle-less acupuncture but it is billed as physical medicine. The equipment I use has been around since the late 70's and 80's, except for the SCENARs. The only difference is the results that I get compared to those of PT's and MDs. That's the reason for my patient load. > > > > Don SNow > > > > Chinese Medicine > singlewhip2001 > Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:54:50 +0000 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > > > Hi Don: > > Reading between the lines what you are saying is along with acupuncture you use modalities that a western physician, nurse or therapist might use and its billed under the MD so you can get the highest possible revenue because the insurance company is viewing it as under the MD? Is this an accurate understanding? > > thanks, > david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 <heylaurag wrote: > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > Laura Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration)??????? Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. Mark Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. We are not of unified opinion on: " medical " acupuncturists the FPD what to call ourselves whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for our public identity... and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? Thank you, Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: zedbowls <zaranski Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Chinese Medicine Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM <heylaurag wrote: > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > Laura Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration)??????? Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. Mark Z --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Yeah, it would be very interesting to hear how other countries have dealt with these issues. I think we cannot ignore the fact that as there are more and more of us out there we will be shaping the future of our medicine. Whether it be music our healthcare, over time the mainstream integrates underground movements and makes them their own (think punk, hip hop, etc). Right now people are grasping desperately to all the freedoms of being underground/non-maintstream--eg: being able to not accept insurance, being able to charge what they want to charge etc. But I do not think there is any way around the reality that the mainstream is and will continue to be pulling us into their fold, for better or worse. We need to be making it for the better rather than for the worse. Pretending that we can avoid it will not serve us. Because, for example, if you practice in an area where most acupuncturists take insurance and there are a lot of acupuncturists around it becomes very hard to make a living if you don't take insurance. And eventually that is going to be teh case for most of the United States. Yes, right now many practice in areas where they have little competition and they have the freedom to write their own rules. That is changing. And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate level degree we will all benefit. Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage therapists? (no offense to massage therapists) Laura Chinese Medicine , < wrote: > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > the FPD > what to call ourselves > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for our public identity... > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > Thank you, > Andrea Beth > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > 635 S. 10th St. > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > (928) 274-1373 > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: > > zedbowls <zaranski > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > Chinese Medicine > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > Laura > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration)??????? > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > Mark Z > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi Andrea Beth and all: --Andrea Beth- We are not of unified opinion on: " medical " acupuncturists the FPD what to call ourselves whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for our public identity... and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood --- From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) I hope I amuse you guys. So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. Happy 2010 everyone! Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ < Chinese Medicine Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? Thank you, Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > Laura Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. Mark Z ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Thank you, Hugo - I agree with your point of view, and I am completely amused by your terminology references. I don't believe, however, that studying yin-yang theory is sufficient as a solution for all that ails us as a profession. But yes, we should be proficient in it. Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 1/4/10, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hugo Ramiro <subincor Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Chinese Medicine Monday, January 4, 2010, 2:01 PM Hi Andrea Beth and all: --Andrea Beth- We are not of unified opinion on: " medical " acupuncturists the FPD what to call ourselves whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for our public identity... and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood --- From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) I hope I amuse you guys. So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. Happy 2010 everyone! Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ < Chinese Medicine Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? Thank you, Andrea Beth Traditional Oriental Medicine Happy Hours in the CALM Center 635 S. 10th St. Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > Laura Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. Mark Z ------------ --------- --------- ------ Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2010 Report Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hugo, I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > --Andrea Beth- > > We are not of unified opinion on: > " medical " acupuncturists > the FPD > what to call ourselves > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > our public identity... > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > --- > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > Happy 2010 everyone! > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ________________________________ > < > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > Thank you, > Andrea Beth > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > 635 S. 10th St. > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > (928) 274-1373 > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > Laura > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > Mark Z > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Hugo, yeah, I agree with you completely. It cracks me up how satisfied people will be when they are given a fancy diagnosis for something that is realy just a decorated way of saying what they already know--that they have a skin rash and it is red. Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > --Andrea Beth- > > We are not of unified opinion on: > " medical " acupuncturists > the FPD > what to call ourselves > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > our public identity... > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > --- > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > Happy 2010 everyone! > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > < > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > Thank you, > Andrea Beth > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > 635 S. 10th St. > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > (928) 274-1373 > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > Laura > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > Mark Z > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. --- To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Hugo, I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > --Andrea Beth- > > We are not of unified opinion on: > " medical " acupuncturists > the FPD > what to call ourselves > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > our public identity... > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > --- > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > Happy 2010 everyone! > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ________________________________ > < > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > Thank you, > Andrea Beth > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > 635 S. 10th St. > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > (928) 274-1373 > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > <heylaurag@. ..> wrote: > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > Laura > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > Mark Z > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Andrea Beth and All: I am gladdened to hear that grins might be sprouting as my posts are read. Thank you. --Andrea Beth- I don't believe, however, that studying yin-yang theory is sufficient as a solution for all that ails us as a profession. But yes, we should be proficient in it. --- You may be right. I wonder about what we call proficiency, however. True understanding of Yin Yang theory allows an individual to almost immediately classify and form workable predictions surrounding a phenomena that comes at us through our human senses. In my experience, many practitioners do not have a sufficient grasp of the roots of our medicine, and of course, a weakness is felt when applying it. I come back to a point I raise often here: how committed, exactly, are we? Does the flux of the yin and yang become evident in our life? Can we see it, do we *feel* it as it happens? It is one of the reasons I believe Qi Gong should be compulsory training / education for non-Chinese speakers. Forget the western university undergraduate degree that will make muddy waters muddier. I believe that there are only two ways to grasp the core of our medicine: either speak and write Chinese, or practice deep meditation / Qi Gong. If you don't do one or the other, you've got to have worries about your grasp of the matter. We have at least three huge systems mixing us up. On the one hand, we have CM, the real thing. Then we have Biomedicine stirring things up very powerfully. Then we have new age / alternative medicine / underbelly of biomedicine / counterculture backlash to contend with as well. Without a direct connection to the realities that CM is referring to, we risk being lost in these violent tides. Something to think about at least, I hope. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Do you mean those Asian MDs who never believed in Oriental medicine while in Asia? In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:50:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's not forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Double check your theory. The majority of those practitioners were MDs who never believed in AOM and only because they were tired of working for $5/hour in blood banks did they see the opportunity to try to regain sort-of-MD status through this night-trade-school cottage industry business...first as so-called teachers. Some who were really qualified .....did and do get their MD licenses..... but then these individuals are generally not the slightest bit interested in AOM. Richard In a message dated 1/5/2010 11:04:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: No. Try the many Asian practitioners that are in clinical practice or teach at our many OM schools. They tend to have a deeper understanding of both and in some cases, some of them actually do get their medical license. If you are suggesting the belief in neuro vascular node theory, then probably not too many that support this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 5 Jan 2010 10:57:16 -0500 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Do you mean those Asian MDs who never believed in Oriental medicine while in Asia? In a message dated 1/5/2010 10:50:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, naturaldoc1 writes: There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's not forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > --- > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Hugo, > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > > the FPD > > what to call ourselves > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > our public identity... > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > --- > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > < > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > Andrea Beth > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > 635 S. 10th St. > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > Laura > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > Mark Z > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate level degree we will all benefit. > > Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage therapists? (no offense to massage therapists) Where to start? There are massage therapists charging $30 for full hour massages in my town, and they can get you in right away! My two massage therapists charge $50 for half an hour, and don't have an opening available for weeks. If everybody has the same product and the same service to back it up, the most conveniently located will get the most business, and the low price leader will get the next biggest share. Our work is not quite like that! Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in it because you are called Doctor? a) What do you charge now per treatment? b) What would you like to charge? c) What do you think people SHOULD pay for your services? I suggest you raise your prices to either b or c, work hard, do a good job and be happy that you can help people. If you are good at it you will get plenty of opportunities and the more you help the more will come for help. Mark Z Sidenote, funny story: A couple started care at our Clinic. They both went thru our 4 visit evaluation period and each improved. They came to me and explained that because of their financial situation they had decided to seek care closer to home with a chiropractor who needles and who would accept their insurance plus a minor co-pay. I explained that all things are not equal, that they would always be welcome at our Clinic, and wished them luck. Their progress slowed, then stopped, some symptoms returned, some signs strengthened, but his neck felt better. They returned. They said " can't you tell my Doc where to put the needles? " I explained that would only work for a short time, and that the only true hope for their Doc was a proper education. They bought more herbs, refined their understanding of their diets and went back to their DC. I still to this day answer email questions from them, and their conditions are better, but certainly not resolved. They are happy to be better, and satisfied with their compromise. These two are the exception. Most our Client's DEMAND the full benefits of CM because they are Sick & Tired of feling sick and being tired, and having the only remedy be " more drugs " . Our Clients show-up for their recommended treatments, follow their recommeded diets, take their herbs, do their stretches and gleefully anticipate their next re-eval (every 8 treatments) where we chart their progress and set goals for the next. Upon exceeding 60% recovery (100% being truly healthy) they have the opportunity to receive an embroidered tennis/polo-style shirt (exactly like those worn by our staff at outside events and in the Clinic on Thursdays) in exchange for writing a testimonial and providing 5 people with whom to share (via snailmail) that testimonial (which is accompanyed by a coupon for a free exam and an invitation to the Clinic). Most Clients are thrilled to participate, and proud to wear their shirts (which usually leads to opportunities to share their experience with those who inquire about the shirt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Mark mentions, " Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in it because you are called Doctor? " Yes, that is exactly what has been happening over the years, if you look at what many AOM schools are doing within hospitals and outpatient clinics and many DAOM clinical rotations are held within these institutions. We are getting more respect from both the hospital admin and many MD's as well. This is a combined effort of outreach with clinical offerings and the new DAOM programs that often include some western MD's as instructors. When we reach out to include them and work towards creating a more seamless healthcare setting, they seem to be on board. There will always be a place for the individual practitioner but now we must act to create more options for future professional growth and let's not forget the overwhelming support of the Asian practitioners that are behind this. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zaranski Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:08:40 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: And, this fact cannot be denied: a profession that requires a doctorate to practice will be paid more than a profession that does not. Those of us who are already practicing will be grandfathered in--we won't have to go back and get the doctorate to practice. But if our medicine is developed with a doctorate level degree we will all benefit. > > Doesn't anyone else get tired of practicing a medicine with all the responsibilities of being a doctor but being treated like we are massage therapists? (no offense to massage therapists) Where to start? There are massage therapists charging $30 for full hour massages in my town, and they can get you in right away! My two massage therapists charge $50 for half an hour, and don't have an opening available for weeks. If everybody has the same product and the same service to back it up, the most conveniently located will get the most business, and the low price leader will get the next biggest share. Our work is not quite like that! Do you really believe being called Dr. heyLaura will change how medical doctors feel about You? Do you think patients will offer you more money? Do you think those with no understanding of what you do will be more interested in it because you are called Doctor? a) What do you charge now per treatment? b) What would you like to charge? c) What do you think people SHOULD pay for your services? I suggest you raise your prices to either b or c, work hard, do a good job and be happy that you can help people. If you are good at it you will get plenty of opportunities and the more you help the more will come for help. Mark Z Sidenote, funny story: A couple started care at our Clinic. They both went thru our 4 visit evaluation period and each improved. They came to me and explained that because of their financial situation they had decided to seek care closer to home with a chiropractor who needles and who would accept their insurance plus a minor co-pay. I explained that all things are not equal, that they would always be welcome at our Clinic, and wished them luck. Their progress slowed, then stopped, some symptoms returned, some signs strengthened, but his neck felt better. They returned. They said " can't you tell my Doc where to put the needles? " I explained that would only work for a short time, and that the only true hope for their Doc was a proper education. They bought more herbs, refined their understanding of their diets and went back to their DC. I still to this day answer email questions from them, and their conditions are better, but certainly not resolved. They are happy to be better, and satisfied with their compromise. These two are the exception. Most our Client's DEMAND the full benefits of CM because they are Sick & Tired of feling sick and being tired, and having the only remedy be " more drugs " . Our Clients show-up for their recommended treatments, follow their recommeded diets, take their herbs, do their stretches and gleefully anticipate their next re-eval (every 8 treatments) where we chart their progress and set goals for the next. Upon exceeding 60% recovery (100% being truly healthy) they have the opportunity to receive an embroidered tennis/polo-style shirt (exactly like those worn by our staff at outside events and in the Clinic on Thursdays) in exchange for writing a testimonial and providing 5 people with whom to share (via snailmail) that testimonial (which is accompanyed by a coupon for a free exam and an invitation to the Clinic). Most Clients are thrilled to participate, and proud to wear their shirts (which usually leads to opportunities to share their experience with those who inquire about the shirt). _______________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Hugo et al., Consumer demand. You've hit on it. This is what needs to grow. Consumer demand for what we all love and know works, regardless of the practice style. Far more than the 1% recognized by the last NIH study. 3.1 million in 2007 is great, but we need more people to use AOM/TCM/... . I would encourage anyone who wishes to go further with constructive ideas about how to deal with the challenges facing AOM to join the google group, http://groups.google.comaomcommunity?hl=en , and bounce some ideas around in that arena. There's quite a bit bouncing around there now. keith > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that > they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have > demanded that they do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2010 Report Share Posted January 5, 2010 I am hearing a tone of exclusion in this thread and I happen to think that neither position is correct. We need to have a stronger understanding of both, east and western medical understanding like our Asian-trained counterparts. Larger knowledge base is important for treatment options. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine zaranski Tue, 5 Jan 2010 13:27:42 +0000 Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. New Clients often arrive with western diagnoses, but they always still have their problem. The reason they come is because, despite having a wonderful and important sounding diagnosis, THEY STILL HAVE THEIR PROBLEM. Receiving a WM diagnosis does not make their problem go away, and evidently neither did the various WM treatments for said diagnosed malady. They ask " Do you have a record of success treating ____________? " Then the education process begins. Our Clients hear the language of CM in their diagnosis, hear their herb formulas called by their chinese names, and begin to use the language themselves on a beginner level. They tell their friends " I used up too much Yin so I need to make more, " or " they said my Qi was stuck. " Often they seem relieved to find we have a different take on their problem, and thrilled to find that we can very effectively treat that which could not be treated effectively by their WM practitioner. If we focus on symptoms and wm diagnoses we can be really little more help than their WM Docs. Maybe we can substitue acu/moxa/herbs for their pain medication. whoopee! If we do our JOBS correctly, we can correct root imbalances and peoples lives change! Do this well and repeatedly and YOUR life will change. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Z'ev, yes it seems I very much spoke out of turn, although I don't agree with Will Morris exactly. I fully retract my initial judgement of calling him a goof. Totally inappropriate. Here's the relevant piece of the article which I just read: > > --William Morris / Acupuncture Today- > Participating acupuncturists must adapt appropriate physical > assessment, outcomes measures and report-writing to the culture of > occupational medicine. Liver qi stagnation and the five > elements, while important as an in-discipline model of thought, will > not work in that environment. We must give up the idea that others will > accept our nomenclature. It is ours and we need it, but they don't. We > must therefore communicate in a way that our listeners can hear. > --- > > To communicate in a way that my listeners can hear is very important, but to eliminate myself from the picture is impossible. In other words, if what I am *truly* doing is treating Liver Qi stagnation, then, somehow, that fact will express itself, and likely, it will permeate who I am and what I do, even when I am co-opting western medical terminology and differentials for my purposes. > > To pretend that corporations (for example) will not " cave " to our concepts is to ignore that they have caved in every instance where the circumstances or the consumers have demanded that they do so. If it is our concepts which allow us to provide a sustainable medicine, then it is unavoidable that people of all walks of life accept our terms. Our terms, after all, are based on repeated, tested, observations. > > We must also remember that the people who approach us, be they patients, representatives of biomedicine and so on, approach us in part *because* of our terminology. People are tired of the machine metaphor. The machine metaphor will kill us - it is *that* which must be given up. > > On a practical note, it is perfectly possible in my point of view to retain both terminologies and differentials, one for communication, and the other for the real work. Just so long as that is the hierarchy that is present. > > Thanks, > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, 4 January, 2010 17:43:50 > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > Hugo, > I haven't read the article yet, but I'd be pretty surprised if Will was recommending giving up the language of Chinese medicine, knowing how dedicated he is to the classical medicine, especially pulse diagnosis. > > Having said that, I think you've hit the issue right on the head. If we innately feel that biomedicine is the only 'true' reality in medicine, and that what Chinese medicine describes is a fiction, then the profession will fade away eventually and only the needles will survive, not the theory, the herbs, or the moxa. > > > On Jan 4, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote: > > > Hi Andrea Beth and all: > > > > --Andrea Beth- > > > > We are not of unified opinion on: > > " medical " acupuncturists > > the FPD > > what to call ourselves > > whether we should all be trained in herbal medicine in addition to > > acupuncture (be TCM practitioners) or continue to have 2 separate > > categories of acupuncturists - those who incorporate herbal medicine > > and those who don't... I see this as a very big source of confusion for > > our public identity... > > and other issues that affect our profession and threaten our livelihood > > --- > > > > From my p.o.v. all of the above boil down to one thing, and one thing only, and it is the thing we must answer *first*: > > > > Do we, as individuals, buy into CM, or do we buy into WM? > > > > Do we actually believe there is a real thing " parkinson's " ? Do we feel confused when we think " damp " ? > > Do we actually buy that " erythema multiformis " is a specialist term originating from a super-advanced technological medicine...or do we *clearly* understand that erythema multiformis is a " common language " description from a language so archaic it's DEAD and meaning no more than (literally) " red skin many shapes " . > > > > And yet we have the goof in Austin saying that we have to give up our " archaic " language because...there's another *more* archaic language that we'd rather use?! > > > > Let's look at a few WM diagnoses: > > > > Schizophrenia - Split Diaphragm / Split Mind (same Phren from phrenology by the way) > > Diabetes - " To pass through " . Diarrhea? No, Dia/betes/. Just trying to be specific. > > Angina Pectoris - Strangulation in the chest > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Something hurts and we don't know how or why (literally). But we have a name. Ok, ok, let's give that one another shot: > > Idiopathic Neuralgia - Comes-from-private-suffering Vigor-Sinew pain. > > Lupus Erythematosus - Wolf Red Sea-Mullet on the skin (that is *spooky*, people, *spooky*) > > > > I hope I amuse you guys. > > > > So just to tie this one up: what we might want to look at as a profession is a course called " yin yang theory " , and if you don't get it, you don't get it (the degree / certification). I really feel that if we did that, a lot of our problems would vanish. How to defeat your enemy? Divide their attention, cause them to doubt themselves. Our attention is being divided very effectively, from my p.o.v. > > > > Happy 2010 everyone! > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ________________________________ > > < > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 4 January, 2010 11:05:34 > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > First the western medical professions take over our medicine, then the military, and now here comes the FPD. I think the future looks bleak for acupuncturists (oops, TCM practitioners - but, by the way, no one where I live has any idea what TCM is, aside from other LAc's), with or without the FPD. > > > > Plus, we are lacking a national standard for practice in all 50 of the United States; indeed, there are some states which still lack an acupuncture statute, and others require education only in acupuncture (and not also herbal medicine) for licensure. Still other states authorize only " doctors " to practice acupuncture. Those that do license acupuncturists, all have differing educational and exam requirements. How can we be unified on anything, if we are not trained equally? > > > > Even if we were unified in our opinion and strategies for addressing these issues, we don't have the numbers of practitioners and deep pockets needed to defend our profession properly. Poor business sense compounds these problems. > > > > If any of our brothers and sisters in other countries have addressed these issues in ways that have been fruitful, I for one, would like to hear from them. What has been useful, and how is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > Andrea Beth > > > > Traditional Oriental Medicine > > Happy Hours in the CALM Center > > 635 S. 10th St. > > Cottonwood, AZ 86326 > > (928) 274-1373 > > > > --- On Mon, 1/4/10, zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > zedbowls <zaranski (AT) verizon (DOT) net> > > Re: What's in a Name? The Future of the Medicine. > > > > Monday, January 4, 2010, 7:01 AM > > > > <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > We have a strong underground following that already knows us as " Traditional " shortened to TCM or Chinese medicine. It makes no business sense whatsoever to give that up. I have to say, our profession generally lacks business sense, sadly. > > > > > > Laura > > Acupuncture Today (jan 2010, vol 11 no 1) leads of with Will Morris' The Bright Future Of Acupuncture wherein he tells us that Acupuncture gained recognition in 2009 and has a brand name that shines brightly in the media (at least in 2009)due mainly to a MLB pitcher and a tv danc-show contestent. > > > > The article goes on to explain that Acupuncture will grow thru low price models appealing to corporations and government, that community-style acupuncture will grow and be supported by governments, that our traditional nomenclature (Liver Qi stagnation with Spleen Qi deficiency) is archaic and must be replaced with the language of occupational medicine, that we must develop specialties and quickly evolve to the FPD. > > > > Mr. Morris is the president of Autin, Tx's Academy of Oriental Medicine, influential to other academics and to many future students. However, He is not a private clinician, and I do not feel he at all represents those who are, and his future is certainly not what I am interested in. His retoric is prime example of what Laura points out: LACK OF BUSINESS SENSE. > > > > The last thing I want is to look to the government for money to treat people. Can anyone point me to a successful (U.S.) program where a)patients are thrilled with the results of the care they receive and b) practitioners are happy with the working environment (paperwork, etc.) and the compensation they receive (think Veterens Administration) ??????? > > > > Blend-in, be the low-price leader by any means, give the schools more money...these are the steps to success??? > > > > I strongly doubt others on this list who are making excellent livings practicing whatever form (by whatever name) of oriental medicine will agree that Will's vision is their own. > > > > I think the government should go back to having public hospitals (you remember the County Hospital, don't you?) available for those who have no other health care to turn to. As in the past, those who could make other arrangements (private physician, private insurance, whatever) typically avoided the County Hospital and chose their own provider. > > > > We need less government, not more. We need people to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their choices. > > > > Less than 3% of our Clinic's income came from insurance reimbursement of any kind in 2009, and thats the way I like it. Clients pay cash, check, visa/mastercard/ discover for what they want: safe, effective, gentle treatments with documented progress and true recovery without dangerous drugs (with myriad " side " effects) and without unneccessary surgeries. > > > > Mark Z > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com > > > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesem edicinetimes. com/wiki/ CMTpedia > > > > http://groups. / group/Traditiona l_Chinese_ Medicine/ join and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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