Terminology and Etymology

May 8, 2009

Jason,

I think your statement hit the target.

There's a translation of the I Jing by Stephen Karcher.

The book separates itself from any other that I've seen,

because for every symbol and character, there's a paragraph of

English synonyms for each word in Chinese.

I think that the Chinese mind-set at the time they were writing the classics

was much more akin to a tea-house with maples shading a rock garden,

than our brick homes with the sound of a rushing traffic-river in the

background.

How do we reconcile this?

One of my teachers said you have to also be an artist to be a doctor...

not just metaphorically, but literally.

You have to connect to nature (both outside and inside of yourself)

through the medium of paint, calligraphy, poetry, music or dance ie. Tai-ji)

By understanding our own nature, we can understand medicine.

When you guys read the Chinese characters, it must be like reading a

classical music score,

while the orchestra simultaneously playing. A translation would make it

sound like elevator music.

K

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:04 AM, <

> wrote:

>

> I see a couple of interesting points here:

>

> I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the

> concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy

> reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more

> importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down

> in

> English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or

> even

> four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances

> that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English.

>

> To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not

> precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass

> more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is

> contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese

> phrase 'I get it.' because I don't.

>

> For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task,

> because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution

> for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this

> word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors

> nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and

> phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point.

>

> Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese

> you

> will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word

> for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good

> chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive

> for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of

> words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the

> passage). It is really case by case dependent.

>

> In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact

> meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense,

> we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that!

>

> Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me

> be

> clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of

> situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word

> translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better

> than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a

> great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can

> translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't

> know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life.

>

> Hope that helps,

>

> -

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

>

> I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should

> ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the

> authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not

> totally dependent on any one language or language skill set.

>

May 8, 2009

Z'ev, Yehuda, Doug, Alon and All,

This is always a fascinating discussion, Yehuda, I don't think we can

cloak it any other way. It won't leave us as long as we attempt to

formulate this knowledge into English language and the corresponding

derivatives of European culture. Generally, my preference is translation

for the target language rather than source language, because I am more

interested in the reader's experience and clarity at the point of

reception. Z'ev, you said to Yehuda,

I must disagree with you. If we are

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/moxa

always circulates the qi.

I agree with everything you say here except, that we must " make the

medicine in our own image. " Medicine is a socially constructed

phenomenon, and given our situation in the world, that is all we can do.

Yet, doing so does not require that we make it biomedicine. Further, I

do not believe that the choice of the term drain vs. sedate for the word

xie is an act of " making the medicine in our own image. " That said, my

preference is drain. However, If I read early 1980 acupuncture books

that adopted sedation as a concept, it would still lead me to the same

set of procedures.

Warmly,

Will

May 8, 2009

Will,

Perhaps a bit of misunderstanding. What I meant was that we need

to try our best to understand the Chinese medical literature in its

original context, then make it our own in our present life

circumstances (and culture). I like what says about the

garden vs. city street metaphor, although certainly we should have as

much access to gardens and nature as possible. This is a key issue in

the health of humanity, the lack of access to unspoiled natural

settings.

On May 8, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Will Morris wrote:

> I agree with everything you say here except, that we must " make the

> medicine in our own image. " Medicine is a socially constructed

> phenomenon, and given our situation in the world, that is all we can

> do.

> Yet, doing so does not require that we make it biomedicine. Further, I

> do not believe that the choice of the term drain vs. sedate for the

> word

> xie is an act of " making the medicine in our own image. " That said, my

> preference is drain. However, If I read early 1980 acupuncture books

> that adopted sedation as a concept, it would still lead me to the same

> set of procedures.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

May 8, 2009

Dear Yehuda,

I'm not the right person to engage with you in a conversation about

the translation of Chinese medical terms. I am slowly entering into

a study of the Classics through my classes with Jeffrey Yuen, but I

am more at the beginning.

But I think that the human physiological template is basically the

same worldwide, whether one is living in China or the U.S. Culture

is certainly a factor when considering how physiological sensations

are interpreted, and culture and language may influence genetics on

the level of say, gene expression. But I guess I just believe that

underneath that, the template doesn't change (well, it can, but we

call those 'defects'.) So all this is just to say that that is why I

try to stick to the body, to ask, what is really going on

physiologically, when I am trying to understand the meaning of a

medical term. If I go directly to the experience of my body, I

believe I will be able to 'understand' , even though

I grew up in the west.

Certainly there are times when I feel like I don't know what to do

with that person who is lying on the treatment table in front of me.

And yes, it does bother me. And that spurs me to continue my

studies. Like you, I am driven to want to understand.

I appreciate how you bring your questions and thoughts to this e-

group, and I really enjoy following the conversations that develop.

Thank you.

RoseAnne, L.Ac

NYC

On May 7, 2009, at 10:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> Dear Roseanne,

>

> I completely respect what you are saying, and perhaps you are able

> to apply a precision understanding to the complex poetic language

> of Chinese medical language. My impression in the years I was in

> school, as well as the years I have been in practice is that most

> people thrive on the vagueness of the English translated

> terminology, most not having a clue as to the precise differences

> in terms used. And that bothers me. I love the poetry of the

> language used, I love the forgiveness that formulas and acupuncture

> prescriptions offer us, so that if we don't get it exactly right,

> often they work, nonetheless. But that lack of precision can lead

> to complacency. Just like cookbook Chinese medicine and

> acupuncture works most of the time, so two does a lack of precision

> in skill or knowledge. That, in my view, is the root of mediocrity

> and I feel two many of us have found that acceptable. I don't and

> that's one of the reasons why we are engaging in

> the conversation on this subject.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

>

> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

> Re: Terminology and Etymology

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM

>

On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

>> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed

>> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like

>> Westerners, whether we like it or not.

>

> I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally,

> I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of

> understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my

> upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of

> explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it

> has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of

> acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea

> of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi.

>

> RoseAnne

>

May 8, 2009

RoseAnne,

I appreciate your intellectual honesty in your search for clarity. As I have

expressed, I really sense that we are missing something that Chinese language

speakers have. And I believe, that included in that boat are some of our

esteemed writers and even translators of Chinese medical texts, who though they

can read medical Chinese, can't speak and don't think in it.

Based on that state of affairs, I believe that 3 alternative courses of

action can be taken:

1. accept the reality, and nonetheless immerse oneself in medical chinese in

original texts to, at the very least, widen one's base of knowledge and at least

begin the journey of understanding. I would use the analogy of a blind person

who studies diligently Braille texts in order to learn how to paint, and at the

same time engages in medical procedures to give him maybe not vision, but at

least shades and hues.. Tough, and alot of work, but doable.

2. Continue the Status quo, reading all the latest Maciocia and poeticly

vague texts out of China and elsewhere, and thinking that one has " arrived " as a

scholar and master of Chinese medicine. These are the folks who take the path

of the state board exams: They know how to answer all the questions, and might

even be OK as technical practitioners, but in my opinion, they will never master

the art of Chinese medicine.

3. Then there are some who recognize that they may be too old or not have the

ability or desire to take upon themselves alternative #1, but they are also not

satisfied with alternative #2. They are the practitioners who are students, who

seek out those who have a connection to the real thing, masters and scholars who

can give them more than just a taste of it. They are those who seek to

integrate, harmonize and of course, question, realizing their limitation, and

yes, who will also become writers, or rather compilers of this new branch of

Chinese medicine--the Westernized branch. Perhaps in one or two generations,

this branch will be stable, strong and even nourish the main trunk

of medicine and physicians that come from China, but I think that those of us

who take this third way, would be wise to work on ourselves rather than try to

influence scholars in China. I don't think that they would take us seriously,

anyway. For if so,

we run the danger of falling back into the second category.

'just some musings....

--- On Fri, 5/8/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Chinese Medicine

Friday, May 8, 2009, 6:28 AM

Dear Yehuda,

I'm not the right person to engage with you in a conversation about

the translation of Chinese medical terms. I am slowly entering into

a study of the Classics through my classes with Jeffrey Yuen, but I

am more at the beginning.

But I think that the human physiological template is basically the

same worldwide, whether one is living in China or the U.S. Culture

is certainly a factor when considering how physiological sensations

are interpreted, and culture and language may influence genetics on

the level of say, gene expression. But I guess I just believe that

underneath that, the template doesn't change (well, it can, but we

call those 'defects'.) So all this is just to say that that is why I

try to stick to the body, to ask, what is really going on

physiologically, when I am trying to understand the meaning of a

medical term. If I go directly to the experience of my body, I

believe I will be able to 'understand' , even though

I grew up in the west.

Certainly there are times when I feel like I don't know what to do

with that person who is lying on the treatment table in front of me.

And yes, it does bother me. And that spurs me to continue my

studies. Like you, I am driven to want to understand.

I appreciate how you bring your questions and thoughts to this e-

group, and I really enjoy following the conversations that develop.

Thank you.

RoseAnne, L.Ac

NYC

On May 7, 2009, at 10:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> Dear Roseanne,

>

> I completely respect what you are saying, and perhaps you are able

> to apply a precision understanding to the complex poetic language

> of Chinese medical language. My impression in the years I was in

> school, as well as the years I have been in practice is that most

> people thrive on the vagueness of the English translated

> terminology, most not having a clue as to the precise differences

> in terms used. And that bothers me. I love the poetry of the

> language used, I love the forgiveness that formulas and acupuncture

> prescriptions offer us, so that if we don't get it exactly right,

> often they work, nonetheless. But that lack of precision can lead

> to complacency. Just like cookbook Chinese medicine and

> acupuncture works most of the time, so two does a lack of precision

> in skill or knowledge. That, in my view, is the root of mediocrity

> and I feel two many of us have found that acceptable. I don't and

> that's one of the reasons why we are engaging in

> the conversation on this subject.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

>

> RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

> Re: Terminology and Etymology

>

> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM

>

On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

>> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed

>> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like

>> Westerners, whether we like it or not.

>

> I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally,

> I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of

> understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my

> upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of

> explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it

> has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of

> acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea

> of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi.

>

> RoseAnne

>

May 8, 2009

Heres a potent quote I keep posted by my desk:

" If you want to develop acupuncture, if you want to make it grow and spread, you

have to be very strict in the way that you learn things, rigorous or strict in

the way that we learn the words. Because if we employ words which are not

accurate, we are not going to learn anything. Because in Chinese medicine, every

single word has a deep meaning, and if we don't use them correctly, we may end

up making errors. And if there are errors in comprehension we cannot help our

patients, we cannot get results. And a medical science where there are no

results is a science that has no future. That is why we are very strict about

the terminology. "

-- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung

Anyway, the Chinese character for xie is made up of 2 radicals:

one half of the Character is the radical for " water " - and the second part

indicates the pronunciation.

Another powerful quote by Dr. Tran, slightly off topic:

" There are three things that I am sure about that I would like to explain to you

in a very simple way: First of all, the further I get into my studies of

acupuncture the more I realize how little I know, that I know nothing; Two:

among my patients there are lots of failures, I fail to cure a lot of people.

But there is one thing I am sure about: that if I don't succeed in curing my

patients, it is not the fault of acupuncture: I haven't reached the height of my

prowess, I haven't reached the peak of my possibilities and achievements. There

is acupuncture and there are acupuncturists. Thirdly, I notice that often when I

fail to cure someone, it's because I haven't properly grasped the technique;

that is, I use a technique, often, that I haven't really understood. That's why

I believe, that when you puncture a point in acupuncture, you have to understand

the meaning of that action, you have to understand the meaning of what we do. We

have to understand the deeper meaning of acupuncture. Because if you puncture a

point, and you don't understand why you're puncturing it, if you're just doing

it because the Chinese say you that have to do it, or other people say you have

to do it, if it's just a 'reflex' point, without any proper interpretation or

real understanding, according to my experience, the results are not good. "

-- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung

Harry F. Lardner, Projects Editor

Peoples Medical Publishing House

Beijing, China

May 8, 2009

RoseAnne,

I agree with you. I think we can tap into that sense of universal,

not matter what our ethnic background is. It's more a sense of zen-mind

(open and empty and not-knowing) than a color of our skin or soul.

I've had experiences with different groups where that came through,

not because I completely assimilated with their cultural habits,

but because I was open to the experience.

Most of this comes through silence, the rest is ritual.

So, I see the value in becoming a linguist, because the depth of the

medicine

is encoded in the ritual of doing the same thing these ancestors of ours

were doing over and over again. It's like observing the holy days and being

mindful of our steps.

In a way, we become our ancestors when we perform the rituals.

How can it not be? " We carry them in our chest " (quoting J.Yuen)

K

May 8, 2009

I would like to point out that in a professional lingo a word can mean anything

the lingo decides it means. Does it really matter if we call it drain, sedate or

tomato as long as we know what we are talking about?

May 8, 2009

Hi Alon:

--Alon-

I would like to point out that in a professional lingo a word can mean

anything the lingo decides it means. Does it really matter if we call

it drain, sedate or tomato as long as we know what we are talking

about?

---

It matters only so long as 1. many practitioners *don't* know what they are

talking about, and 2. if mind-intent is a real phenomena, then knowing exactly

what one is doing and why becomes essential, in which case very accurate and

internally coherent terminology sets become important.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

________________________________

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 8 May, 2009 11:57:10

Re:Terminology and Etymology

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

May 8, 2009

Koko

the whole issue is not simple. Just look at Arnaud teachings. I don't think i

have ever seen anyone teaching in English that can explain many of the most

difficult ideas in CM as clearly as he does. He definitely does not believe in a

fixed set of word choices in any way shape or form, and does not like the

methodology of W terminology. That said, i think he uses drain when talking

about this in acup.

May 8, 2009

Kokko,

To my observation and understanding, you express exactly how I feel. As was

expressed earlier in this discussion that speaking any language requires

thinking in that language as well, I would agree that with Chinese there is the

additional element of its artistry. So when we consider Chinese medicine, we

have three dynamics that need to be considered in order to really swim with the

greats: 1. a mastery of the language to the point of thinking it, 2. Acquiring

the ability to feel the language and 3. Practicing medicine as an art form.

Truly daunting for those who choose to embark upon this Everest-like task.

--- On Fri, 5/8/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology

Friday, May 8, 2009, 8:10 AM

Jason,

I think your statement hit the target.

There's a translation of the I Jing by Stephen Karcher.

The book separates itself from any other that I've seen,

because for every symbol and character, there's a paragraph of

English synonyms for each word in Chinese.

I think that the Chinese mind-set at the time they were writing the classics

was much more akin to a tea-house with maples shading a rock garden,

than our brick homes with the sound of a rushing traffic-river in the

background.

How do we reconcile this?

One of my teachers said you have to also be an artist to be a doctor...

not just metaphorically, but literally.

You have to connect to nature (both outside and inside of yourself)

through the medium of paint, calligraphy, poetry, music or dance ie. Tai-ji)

By understanding our own nature, we can understand medicine.

When you guys read the Chinese characters, it must be like reading a

classical music score,

while the orchestra simultaneously playing. A translation would make it

sound like elevator music.

K

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:04 AM, <

@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote:

>

> I see a couple of interesting points here:

>

> I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the

> concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy

> reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more

> importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down

> in

> English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or

> even

> four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances

> that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English.

>

> To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not

> precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass

> more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is

> contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese

> phrase 'I get it.' because I don't.

>

> For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task,

> because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution

> for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this

> word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors

> nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and

> phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point.

>

> Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese

> you

> will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word

> for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good

> chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive

> for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of

> words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the

> passage). It is really case by case dependent.

>

> In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact

> meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense,

> we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that!

>

> Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me

> be

> clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of

> situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word

> translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better

> than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a

> great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can

> translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't

> know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life.

>

> Hope that helps,

>

> -

>

> < %40.

com>

> [<

%40. com>]

> On Behalf Of

>

> I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should

> ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the

> authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not

> totally dependent on any one language or language skill set.

>

May 8, 2009

Hi Yehuda and All:

--Yehuda-

sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I

needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and

after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they

are sedate (using the noun form)?

---

The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably with actions

such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, with a root as you

describe it, does not fit with drain.

Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be described as

sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, cannot be described in

this manner (since they drain), although they are likely to have a *secondary*

effect of " sedation " based on their dosage, combination and length of use.

Thoughts?

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

________________________________

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the Latin term:

Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, sedation does not mean

numbing. That is anesthesia.

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > wrote:

Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ >

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM

Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in - on

the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious that

correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of those

instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how

we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get

things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism of the

etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how 'torpid intake' is an

improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' - I never knew the word

'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't

relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too.

Regards

Daniel

May 8, 2009

Wow Jason, I would trust a loved one of mine with you, esp hearing the things

you just said, thanks. You, and many many people on this group are really good

herbalists, if not the best. But your education is not confined in the western

sense. You have imagination. Everybody has stock formulas for common

presentations. But when you hear feel smell intuit, you can tailor it to fit not

just the present attack, but reach in.

--- On Fri, 5/8/09, wrote:

RE: Re: Terminology and Etymology

Friday, May 8, 2009, 9:04 AM

May 8, 2009

Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws transcend

language, and every language will have a different nuance as it describes these

laws. The fact that these laws are described differently does not change those

laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " the name that can be named is not the eternal

name " . The language that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If

one concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up they will

miss the view.

Douglas

________________________________

; TCM

Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:21:30 PM

Re: Terminology and Etymology

My dear friend Z'ev,

In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are

taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term

sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver,

doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit. That is specifically why I, as an

English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to

understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate word to

describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I

think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs. It is there that

our controversy seems to be playing out.

I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent

in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign

language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one

actually thinks in the language. I still think in English, and sometimes make

silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations.

When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking

environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was

thinking in Hebrew. But that was when I was 22. As we age, we become less

resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late

50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily. " Ah but I

was so much older than, I'm younger than that now "

The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest

that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language,

and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese

which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew. And without

thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese

mindset.

That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new

Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine. If that evolves in

the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily. But as our sages

say, " Who is the wise person, the one who learns from all people. " We live in

a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information. There is tremendous

connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and

new. I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind

successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the

beautiful Chinese medical tree. But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it

has to be connected to the roots. Otherwise it won't have the integrity or

viability to survive. This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my

opinion. Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism. I don't think

it will

last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health

consciousness conventions, are around. There is much wisdom in the West as well

as the East. Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to

due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our

birthright.

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are

interchanged in English without precision. This is why I feel that

understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process.

Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a

problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different

from anesthetizing.

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in English is not enough.

Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms

connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source

of the verb be considered in order to be viable. I would suggest that the same

process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered

when understanding the characters.

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent

scholar such as he may have chosen. But I am not interested in translating

terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what

the terms mean. Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly

English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant

necessarily. That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways,

and if a term cannot be translated appropriately in one word, then it should be

left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps

neither scholar nor clinician.

Respectfully,

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM

Yehuda,

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are