Terminology and Etymology

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/moxa

always circulates the qi.

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea:

> The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is

> not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The

> mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our

> upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners,

> whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless

> we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a

> round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

> literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look

> at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie

> Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look

> for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth,

> hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently

> filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so

> effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula

> " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "

> Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of

> encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared

> out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

> " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I

> would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the

> case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine

> was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective

> symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very

> difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally

> fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the

> ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern

> Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider,

> that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so

> completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest

> that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating

> what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First,

> Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original

> text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms.

>

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion

> then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has

> a very different connotation than the connotation of the term

> anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I

> find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to

> quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver.

>

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree

> may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais

> Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and

> truth.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

> Yehuda

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I just remember Craig Mitchell's famous words at the CHA conference many years

ago when he said, I thought if I learned Chinese things would be clearer.

And also I remember my Chinese students who say that they prefer to read in

English because the terminology is more precise to them than the original

language.

I totally agree with finding better words. No doubt about that. What I think is

Western, if not English, is the desire for the precision of the language. I

agree drain is often times better than sedate yet sometimes not. Especially as a

student these terms are important but the more I practice the less the word

takes precedent and more the action. Yes, with better words there would be less

undoing the misunderstanding but I'm not sure that other misunderstandings are

just as prevalent to the Chinese student. One of the delights I've found in the

last few years is going back to those horribly translated Chinese books and

understanding exactly what was going on and the depth there.

 

 

doug

 

 

,

wrote:

>

> Dear friends and colleagues,

>  

> I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun with my

esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

Rosenberg.  Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

context, and so here is our conversation, thus far.  I post this with the

caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject, as it

has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

anyway.  Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating--to convey a

translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a term in

English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

is conveying.  Here goes:

>  

> Here was the comment that I  originally made:

>

>

> " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing we

need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,  sedate

one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for tenderness,

spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness.   In my patients case, I

sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other things. "   

>

[Guest guest]

Hi! Doug,

I disagree with your Chinese students' preference of reading in

English.

I learned acupuncture and in the United State, but I

always have to read Chinese text to make sure I got the good grasp of

the concept. Maybe it is difficult to read Chinese classics. However I

think it is essential to learn Chinese classics for following original

track of thought from Chinese authors or their texts.

It is easier to learn the basic concept in English, but there are a lot

more within the classics, which can be missing during the translation.

I remembered to be drilled to learn classics when I was in Taiwan.

I have to pass the Chinese literature exam to translate classics to

modern Chinese language in the high school and college.

The bottom line is to find good translators who have good language

skills of Chinese and English, with knowledge of Chinese medicine.

 

Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA

Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

Wyman Park Internal Medicine

Tel 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413

 

Canton Crossing Integrative Medicine

Tel 410-522-9940 Fax 410-522-9954

 

WARNING: E-mail sent over the Internet is not secure. Information sent

by e-mail may not remain confidential.

 

[Guest guest]

Doug,

When do you think 'sedate' is a better translation than 'drain'

for 'xie'?

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 2:57 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> I just remember Craig Mitchell's famous words at the CHA conference

> many years ago when he said, I thought if I learned Chinese things

> would be clearer.

> And also I remember my Chinese students who say that they prefer to

> read in English because the terminology is more precise to them than

> the original language.

> I totally agree with finding better words. No doubt about that. What

> I think is Western, if not English, is the desire for the precision

> of the language. I agree drain is often times better than sedate yet

> sometimes not. Especially as a student these terms are important but

> the more I practice the less the word takes precedent and more the

> action. Yes, with better words there would be less undoing the

> misunderstanding but I'm not sure that other misunderstandings are

> just as prevalent to the Chinese student. One of the delights I've

> found in the last few years is going back to those horribly

> translated Chinese books and understanding exactly what was going on

> and the depth there.

>

> doug

>

> -

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I reporting what some students (not all) have said. Admittedly I am only

teaching beginning students and as you say, " It is easier to learn the basic

concept in English... "

 

I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should ever

be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the authentic

" word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not totally

dependent on any one language or language skill set.

 

And as you also say " but there are a lot more within the classics, which can be

missing during the translation. "

 

You have my complete agreement here. As I understand it, Chinese classics need

to be translated into modern Chinese as well to be understood by the modern

reader. Having done enough translation editing I know that one must be very

careful not to simplify but also to identify redundancies and differentiate them

from insights.

 

 

Thanks for your comments, didn't mean to offend,

Doug

 

 

 

, " Ta-Ya Lee " <tlee19 wrote:

>

> Hi! Doug,

> I disagree with your Chinese students' preference of reading in

> English.

> I learned acupuncture and in the United State, but I

> always have to read Chinese text to make sure I got the good grasp of

> the concept. Maybe it is difficult to read Chinese classics. However I

> think it is essential to learn Chinese classics for following original

> track of thought from Chinese authors or their texts.

> It is easier to learn the basic concept in English, but there are a lot

> more within the classics, which can be missing during the translation.

> I remembered to be drilled to learn classics when I was in Taiwan.

> I have to pass the Chinese literature exam to translate classics to

> modern Chinese language in the high school and college.

> The bottom line is to find good translators who have good language

> skills of Chinese and English, with knowledge of Chinese medicine.

>

> Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA

> Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

> Wyman Park Internal Medicine

> Tel 410-338-3421 Fax 410-338-3413

[Guest guest]

Hello Ta-Ya,

 

I fully agree with you!  I studied and worked in USA for many years but still

much like reading in Chinese to acquire information about China.

 

As to , actually not only I but also other peoples(TCM doctors)

alway think that if one does not understand Chinese, we really doubt he/she can

grasp the pith included in . As you already know that even to a

native Chinese student in Chinese medicine, the language skill is required.

 

By saying this, I hope not to upset those whose mother tongue is not Chinese,

just want to stress the importance of the language skill.

 

Pls take a look at our recent work, and to imagine how tough for us to translate

these Chinese materials into English. I and my colleagues here are already

exhausted in the job.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODkwMjAzNTY=.html

 

With my education background as a graduate from one of the top ten univ. in

USA and a pretigious univ. in China,  from time to time I still feel lack of

ability in doing the translation but reading the original.

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19 wrote:

 

 

Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 3:13 PM

 

 

Hi! Doug,

I disagree with your Chinese students' preference of reading in

English.

I learned acupuncture and in the United State, but I

always have to read Chinese text to make sure I got the good grasp of

the concept.  Maybe it is difficult to read Chinese classics.  However I

think it is essential to learn Chinese classics for following original

track of thought from Chinese authors or their texts.

It is easier to learn the basic concept in English, but there are a lot

more within the classics, which can be missing during the translation.

I remembered to be drilled to learn classics when I was in Taiwan.

I have to pass the Chinese literature exam to translate classics to

modern Chinese language in the high school and college.

The bottom line is to find good translators who have good language

skills of Chinese and English, with knowledge of Chinese medicine.

 

Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA

Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

Wyman Park Internal Medicine

Tel 410-338-3421   Fax 410-338-3413

 

Canton Crossing Integrative Medicine

Tel 410-522-9940   Fax 410-522-9954

[Guest guest]

Dear friends and colleagues,

 

I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun with my

esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

Rosenberg.  Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

context, and so here is our conversation, thus far.  I post this with the

caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject, as it

has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

anyway.  Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating--to convey a

translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a term in

English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

is conveying.  Here goes:

 

Here was the comment that I  originally made:

 

 

" When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing we

need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,  sedate

one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for tenderness,

spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness.   In my patients case, I

sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other things. "   

 

and here was Z'ev's concern:

 

" Just wanted to point out privately that there is no such thing as 'sedation' in

Chinese acupuncture.  The terms are bu/supplement, and xie/drain.  Sedation

means to numb, to put to sleep.  That is not what acupuncture does (unless you

inject the point with lidocaine).  I know half the profession still uses these

terms, but they are simply wrong. "

 

Yehuda:

 

" Thank you for the reminder.  Unfortunately, because there is not standardized

terminology, and in both lectures, articles and books bu and xie are translated

as tonify and sedate, one tends to become a creature of habit. 

 

That being said, consider if you would,  that the etymological source

of  " sedate " is the Latin:  sedatus  which means to compose, moderate,

or quiet, which is pretty accurate as to what we are trying to do with an

overactive liver, no?  Maybe the exact translation of the term xie is drain,

but are we attempting to lessen the volume of a replete liver, in terms of its

content (as in draining a sink) or are we attempting to calm a hyperactive

child, as it were?   It seems to me that the action would be more similar to

the latter.  The source of tonify on the other hand, is the Greek,

Tonus, which means to stretch, as in a rope.  Bu doesn't seem to convey that

meaning, and in that case I would agree, that the action could more accurately

be called supplementing. 

 

I think that more important than exactly translating the terminology, sometimes

it is important to choose a more interpretive translation when trying to convey

a certain concept in a different language.  I find that frequently in Hebrew,

too, that when I translate exactly, the gist of the meaning is lost.

 

This is an interesting idea to exchange.  I wouldn't mind posting it on CHA and

TCM if you aren't opposed to it. "

 

 Z'ev:

 

" Not opposed at all. . . 

 

One clarification that may be helpful is that with acupuncture/moxa we are

dealing with channels primarily, and literally moving qi in specific ways, to

and from channels and points.  The direct visceral relationships are not the

same as with herbal medicine, i.e. shu gan, or calm the liver, which is

different entirely.  Patients may feel more calm or relaxed during and after

acupuncture, but this is a result of balancing the channels, not of a

physiological 'sedation'.   

 

 

The term for sedate or sedation in chinese is wen3 稳 . . .. 

 

Now to continue our discussion:

 

This brings up another interesting idea to consider:  do the terms that we

use to describe therapeutic actions reflect the objective physiological change

in the patient or their subjective sensation.  It would seem to me that the

Chinese are more concerned with the former, as reflected in changes in the

pulse. 

 

But returning to our original topic,  let me posit another idea:  The medicine

we practice in the English speaking Western world is not the same as is

practiced in the East, for the same reason:  The mindset that we bring to our

practices is one that was formed by our upbringing, education and

environment.  We think like Westerners, whether we like it or not.  Therefore,

I would contend, that unless we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients,

we are fitting a round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

literally, without considering the etymology of the English.  Look at Xie,

Qing and Wen for example:  When we look at the formula " Xie Bai San, " it is

translated as " Drain the White Powder. "    Let's look for a minute at the

etymology of drain.  Drain comes from the Middle English term, " dreinen " which

means to filter as in the quote by Sir Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained

through twenty vessels of earth, hath

become fresh. "   This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently filtering

the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so effective for small

children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula " Qing Fei Yin " which is

translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "   Clear comes from the Old French " cler "

which can mean free of encumbrance.  With this formula, phlegm is transformed

and cleared out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

  " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I would

assume that it's implication is anesthesia.  But if that's the case, that would

be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes from the Greek

anaisthet which means without feeling. 

 

Let me summarize: 1.  It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine was

more concerned with  clinical signs rather than subjective symptoms, in

determining the terminological choices.  2.  It is very difficult, if not

next to impossible for someone who is not equally fluent in Chinese and

English to clearly develop the mindset of the ancient Chinese physician.  It

is difficult enough for the modern Chinese physician/scholar.  I would suggest

as an ignorant outsider, that  this would be because the terminology is

integrated and  so completely different from Western languages.  3.  I would

suggest that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating

what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First, Analyze

carefully the context of the terms used in their original text, and second,

determine the etymological root of translated terms.  

 

Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion then

heretofore:  that the origin of the term sedate in English has a very different

connotation than the connotation of the term anesthetize, and based upon the

above discussion and research  I find it less objectionable to use it in the

context that I chose, to quiet the liver, which is very different than calming

the liver.

 

Thank you for your eminent challenge.  Even if we agree to disagree may our

discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais Hillel and Bais

Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and truth.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed

> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like

> Westerners, whether we like it or not.

 

 

I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally,

I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of

understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my

upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of

explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it

has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of

acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea

of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi.

 

RoseAnne

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/moxa

always circulates the qi.

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea:

> The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is

> not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The

> mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our

> upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners,

> whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless

> we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a

> round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

> literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look

> at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie

> Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look

> for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth,

> hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently

> filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so

> effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula

> " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "

> Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of

> encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared

> out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

> " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I

> would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the

> case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

Based on what your wrote,

 

it seems " sedation " could fit with herbalism/formulaism as there are some

herbs that do have sedative effects,

however, " clearing " and " draining " can fit for certain categories as well.

 

" Draining " and " unobstructing " does make a lot more sense for acupuncture

channels/ points,

while " sedating " is certainly an inaccurate term for opening / clearing the

channels through acupuncture.

 

Does Nigel Wiseman / Bensky / Unschuld / Scheid make that distinction...

between acupuncture terminology and herbal terminology?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear friends and colleagues,

>

> I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun with

> my esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

> Rosenberg. Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

> context, and so here is our conversation, thus far. I post this with the

> caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

> Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject, as

> it has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

> anyway. Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating--to convey a

> translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a term

> in English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

> is conveying. Here goes:

>

> Here was the comment that I originally made:

>

> " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing

> we need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,

> sedate one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for

> tenderness, spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness. In my

> patients case, I sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other

> things. "

>

> and here was Z'ev's concern:

>

> " Just wanted to point out privately that there is no such thing as

> 'sedation' in Chinese acupuncture. The terms are bu/supplement, and

> xie/drain. Sedation means to numb, to put to sleep. That is not what

> acupuncture does (unless you inject the point with lidocaine). I know half

> the profession still uses these terms, but they are simply wrong. "

>

> Yehuda:

>

> " Thank you for the reminder. Unfortunately, because there is not

> standardized terminology, and in both lectures, articles and books bu and

> xie are translated as tonify and sedate, one tends to become a creature of

> habit.

>

> That being said, consider if you would, that the etymological source

> of " sedate " is the Latin: sedatus which means to compose, moderate,

> or quiet, which is pretty accurate as to what we are trying to do with an

> overactive liver, no? Maybe the exact translation of the term xie is drain,

> but are we attempting to lessen the volume of a replete liver, in terms of

> its content (as in draining a sink) or are we attempting to calm a

> hyperactive child, as it were? It seems to me that the action would be

> more similar to the latter. The source of tonify on the other hand,

> is the Greek, Tonus, which means to stretch, as in a rope. Bu doesn't seem

> to convey that meaning, and in that case I would agree, that the action

> could more accurately be called supplementing.

>

> I think that more important than exactly translating the terminology,

> sometimes it is important to choose a more interpretive translation when

> trying to convey a certain concept in a different language. I find that

> frequently in Hebrew, too, that when I translate exactly, the gist of the

> meaning is lost.

>

> This is an interesting idea to exchange. I wouldn't mind posting it on CHA

> and TCM if you aren't opposed to it. "

>

> Z'ev:

>

> " Not opposed at all. . .

>

> One clarification that may be helpful is that with acupuncture/moxa we are

> dealing with channels primarily, and literally moving qi in specific ways,

> to and from channels and points. The direct visceral relationships are not

> the same as with herbal medicine, i.e. shu gan, or calm the liver, which is

> different entirely. Patients may feel more calm or relaxed during and after

> acupuncture, but this is a result of balancing the channels, not of a

> physiological 'sedation'.

>

> The term for sedate or sedation in chinese is wen3 ÎÈ . . ..

>

> Now to continue our discussion:

>

> This brings up another interesting idea to consider: do the terms that we

> use to describe therapeutic actions reflect the objective physiological

> change in the patient or their subjective sensation. It would seem to me

> that the Chinese are more concerned with the former, as reflected in changes

> in the pulse.

>

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: The

> medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is not the same

> as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The mindset that we bring

> to our practices is one that was formed by our upbringing, education and

> environment. We think like Westerners, whether we like it or not.

> Therefore, I would contend, that unless we speak and think in Chinese when

> we see patients, we are fitting a round peg into a square hole, by

> attempting to translate terms literally, without considering the etymology

> of the English. Look at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the

> formula " Xie Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's

> look for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir Francis

> Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently filtering

> the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so effective for small

> children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula " Qing Fei Yin " which is

> translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " Clear comes from the Old French

> " cler " which can mean free of encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is

> transformed and cleared out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't

> comment on the tem " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in

> Chinese, though I would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if

> that's the case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine was

> more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective symptoms, in

> determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very difficult, if not

> next to impossible for someone who is not equally fluent in Chinese and

> English to clearly develop the mindset of the ancient Chinese physician. It

> is difficult enough for the modern Chinese physician/scholar. I would

> suggest as an ignorant outsider, that this would be because the

> terminology is integrated and so completely different from Western

> languages. 3. I would suggest that as Westerners we need to take a two

> step process in proximating what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical

> terminology: First, Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their

> original text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated

> terms.

>

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion then

> heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has a very

> different connotation than the connotation of the term anesthetize, and

> based upon the above discussion and research I find it less objectionable

> to use it in the context that I chose, to quiet the liver, which is very

> different than calming the liver.

>

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree may our

> discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais Hillel and Bais

> Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and truth.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

> Yehuda

>

>

[Guest guest]

My dear friend Z'ev,

 

In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are

taking is dogmatic.  Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term

sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver,

doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit.  That is specifically why I, as an

English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to

understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

modern usage bastardized it.  And it seems to be a very appropriate word to

describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I

think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs.  It is there

that our controversy seems to be playing out.  

 

 I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent

in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign

language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one

actually thinks in the language.  I still think in English, and sometimes make

silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. 

When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking

environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was

thinking in Hebrew.  But that was when I was 22.  As we age, we become less

resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late

50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily.  " Ah but I

was so much older than, I'm younger than that now "  

 

The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest

that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language,

and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese

which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew.  And without

thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese

mindset. 

 

That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new

Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine.  If that evolves in

the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily.  But as our sages

say, " Who is the wise person, the one  who learns from all people. "   We live in

a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information.  There is tremendous

connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and

new.  I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind

successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the

beautiful Chinese medical tree.  But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it

has to be connected to the roots.  Otherwise it won't have the integrity or

viability to survive.  This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my

opinion.  Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism.  I don't think

it will

last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health

consciousness conventions, are around.  There is much wisdom in the West as well

as the East.  Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to

due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our

birthright.  

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are

interchanged in English without precision.  This is why I feel that

understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process.  

Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a

problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different

from anesthetizing.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

 

I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in  English is not enough. 

Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms

connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source

of the verb be considered in order to be viable.  I would suggest that the same

process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered

when understanding the characters.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent

scholar such as he may have chosen.  But I am not interested in translating

terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what

the terms mean.  Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly

English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant

necessarily.  That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways,

and if a term cannot be translated  appropriately in one word, then it should be

left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps

neither scholar nor clinician.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

<zrosenbe

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda,

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa

always circulates the qi.

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea:

> The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is

> not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The

> mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our

> upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners,

> whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless

> we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a

> round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

> literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look

> at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie

> Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look

> for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth,

> hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently

> filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so

> effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula

> " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "

> Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of

> encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared

> out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

> " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I

> would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the

> case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine

> was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective

> symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very

> difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally

> fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the

> ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern

> Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider,

> that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so

> completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest

> that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating

> what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First,

> Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original

> text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms.

>

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion

> then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has

> a very different connotation than the connotation of the term

> anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I

> find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to

> quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver.

>

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree

> may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais

> Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and

> truth.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

> Yehuda

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you.  You are confirming exactly my point.  I assume that you are native

Chinese and that you learned English as a second language.  Please correct me if

I am wrong.  But the point is that I feel English speaker who are able to read

and understand Chinese, but don't think Chinese miss out on the subtle nuances

which every language conveys.  It is as if each culture is a different species. 

I have a friend who is Chinese and who was born and raised in Singapore.  She is

perfectly bi-lingual, and was raised on both languages, but when she went to

China, everyone she met knew that she was a gringo, a foreigner.  By the way she

spoke Mandarin, by the way she dressed, and even by the way she walked.  Its

just the way it is, and it doesn't mean that English speaking practitioners

or students of Chinese classics can't develop scholarship or clinical excellence

which exceeds that of scholars and practitioners in China.  But the practice may

be different, and the scholarship will be unique.   

 

But this endeavor, this pursuit of excellence I feel must be predicated

on  three requirements and prerequisites-- 1. scholarship on the highest level,

of original texts (much as Z'ev and others  are pursuing) and learning directly

from  scholars.  2.  Absolute integrity to sources, in the pursuit of truth, and

3. The humility to recognize one's limitations which comes with greatness.   

 

respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, Steve Qi <wxy123w wrote:

 

 

Steve Qi <wxy123w

Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology

, tlee19

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 6:07 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Ta-Ya,

 

I fully agree with you!  I studied and worked in USA for many years but still

much like reading in Chinese to acquire information about China.

 

As to , actually not only I but also other peoples(TCM doctors)

alway think that if one does not understand Chinese, we really doubt he/she can

grasp the pith included in . As you already know that even to a

native Chinese student in Chinese medicine, the language skill is required.

 

By saying this, I hope not to upset those whose mother tongue is not Chinese,

just want to stress the importance of the language skill.

 

Pls take a look at our recent work, and to imagine how tough for us to translate

these Chinese materials into English. I and my colleagues here are already

exhausted in the job.

http://v.youku. com/v_show/ id_XODkwMjAzNTY= .html

 

With my education background as a graduate from one of the top ten univ. in

USA and a pretigious univ. in China,  from time to time I still feel lack of

ability in doing the translation but reading the original.

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19 (AT) jhmi (DOT) edu> wrote:

 

Ta-Ya Lee <tlee19 (AT) jhmi (DOT) edu>

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 3:13 PM

 

Hi! Doug,

I disagree with your Chinese students' preference of reading in

English.

I learned acupuncture and in the United State, but I

always have to read Chinese text to make sure I got the good grasp of

the concept.  Maybe it is difficult to read Chinese classics.  However I

think it is essential to learn Chinese classics for following original

track of thought from Chinese authors or their texts.

It is easier to learn the basic concept in English, but there are a lot

more within the classics, which can be missing during the translation.

I remembered to be drilled to learn classics when I was in Taiwan.

I have to pass the Chinese literature exam to translate classics to

modern Chinese language in the high school and college.

The bottom line is to find good translators who have good language

skills of Chinese and English, with knowledge of Chinese medicine.

 

Ta-Ya Lee, MSN, CRNP, MAc, LAc, MBA

Johns Hopkins Community Physicians

Wyman Park Internal Medicine

Tel 410-338-3421   Fax 410-338-3413

 

Canton Crossing Integrative Medicine

Tel 410-522-9940   Fax 410-522-9954

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dear friend Yehuda,

A couple of points here:

 

1) I was responding to your original example, which was an acupuncture

treatment performed in your clinical program. There isn't any way

that one can translate xie as 'sedate' in acupuncture. Nearly all

modern translators, including those working with Eastland Press, have

abandoned sedate as an equivalent for xie. Sedate is wrong

etymologically and clinically speaking. It leads to a serious

misconception as to how acupuncture and moxabustion work.

 

2) In herbal medicine, certainly one can describe liver drainage in

different ways and use different terms and/or approaches, but again

one wouldn't translate xie as sedate or sedation. I don't think you'd

find one Chinese dictionary, either medical or general, that would do

so. There are terms such as calm or level/ping2 å¹³ , subdue/qian2

潜, or settle or calm/zhen4 镇.

 

3) Certainly flexibility in translation is important, but there are

rules to language and term choice. My only point is that sedate or

sedation is never the correct choice for xie, especially in

acupuncture, and I will not budge on that, 'dogmatic' as it may be. . .

 

 

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 8:21 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

>

> My dear friend Z'ev,

>

> In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the

> approach you are taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature

> chooses to use the term sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming

> an irritable and replete liver, doesn't mean that its use doesn't

> have merit. That is specifically why I, as an English speaker,

> chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to understand

> as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

> modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate

> word to describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would

> add, though, that I think that the main problem that we have is with

> action verbs. It is there that our controversy seems to be playing

> out.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I really hate to put my two cents in her anymore. but a great chinese teacher

said to me

40 years ago, don't waste time learning chinese now, I am telling you what you

need to know in english. so whatever

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, wrote:

 

 

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 5:57 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just remember Craig Mitchell's famous words at the CHA conference many

years ago when he said, I thought if I learned Chinese things would be clearer.

 

And also I remember my Chinese students who say that they prefer to read in

English because the terminology is more precise to them than the original

language.

 

I totally agree with finding better words. No doubt about that. What I think is

Western, if not English, is the desire for the precision of the language. I

agree drain is often times better than sedate yet sometimes not. Especially as a

student these terms are important but the more I practice the less the word

takes precedent and more the action. Yes, with better words there would be less

undoing the misunderstanding but I'm not sure that other misunderstandings are

just as prevalent to the Chinese student. One of the delights I've found in the

last few years is going back to those horribly translated Chinese books and

understanding exactly what was going on and the depth there.

 

 

 

doug

 

 

 

, @.. .>

wrote:

 

>

 

> Dear friends and colleagues,

 

>  

 

> I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun with my

esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

Rosenberg.  Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

context, and so here is our conversation, thus far.  I post this with the

caveat that I would appreciate  it if those of you who object to Nigel

Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject, as it

has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

anyway.  Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating- -to convey a

translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a term in

English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

is conveying.  Here goes:

 

>  

 

> Here was the comment that I  originally made:

 

>

 

>

 

> " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing we

need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,  sedate

one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for tenderness,

spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness.   In my patients case, I

sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other things. "   

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

" 1) I was responding to your original example, which was an acupuncture

treatment performed in your clinical program. "

 

I got lost in the woods--can you clarify what this statement is referring to?

 

There isn't any way that one can translate xie as 'sedate' in acupuncture.

Nearly all modern translators, including those working with Eastland Press, have

abandoned sedate as an equivalent for xie. Sedate is wrong

etymologically and clinically speaking. It leads to a serious

misconception as to how acupuncture and moxabustion work.

 

Unfortunately, you misunderstood my point as well as my intention.  You are

working backwards:  I am not, in the least contending that sedate is a

translation of xie.  Rather, concerning this point I am asking two questions,

one of which I answer and one of which I don't.  Let me state them again: 

 

1.   My original statement was that I feel that when I am describing the

pattern of edginess and exhuberance of the liver in a patient, which is a state

of repletion, the descripton that I gave was sedation, meaning calming.  I

found support for this English speaker's description from the etymological root

of sedate: sedatus  which means to compose, moderate, or quiet.  The point is

that I was not translating a Chinese term, but rather describing a clinical

state.  Any disagreement?

 

2.  I questioned the wisdom of using the term " drain " as the translation of

Xie, based upon the same concept.  If one looks at the etymological root of

drain, one finds that is comes from the Middle English term, " dreinen " which

means to filter.  If you recall, I brought an example of its usage  by Sir

Francis Bacon, in the quote  " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of

earth, hath become fresh. "   This implies a  gentle filtering, rather than the

current English connotation of draining out water from a sink, which has a more

aggressive connotation to my understanding.   I am therefore not making any

suggestions per se as to what Xie should be translated by, but wonder what

those such as Wiseman and Bensky were thinking when they  chose to translate

xie as drain, which has a different modern connotation from its etymological

root.  If their intention was to express the original meaning then maybe a

better translation might be

filter, and if their intention was to express the modern connotation than

maybe a better translation might be something which connotes removing

liquid.  All I ask for is clarity which I don't get from the word drain, to

describe accurately what the action of xie is.  

 

2) In herbal medicine, certainly one can describe liver drainage in

different ways and use different terms and/or approaches, but again

one wouldn't translate xie as sedate or sedation. I don't think you'd

find one Chinese dictionary, either medical or general, that would do

so. There are terms such as calm or level/ping2 å¹³ , subdue/qian2

潜, or settle or calm/zhen4 镇.

 

Again, no argument.  I am not attempting to define or translate xie.  On the

contrary I am asking for clarity.  But here again, you are reinforcing the

problem that I have.  We need to understand ourselves first, and then we need

to teach our students the specific inuendos and differences between the actions

which are expressed by the words ping, qian, zhen, as well as the other two

mentioned in our discussions qing and of course xie. 

 

Certainly flexibility in translation is important, but there are

rules to language and term choice. My only point is that sedate or

sedation is never the correct choice for xie, especially in

acupuncture, and I will not budge on that, 'dogmatic' as it may be. . .

 

Z'ev, the dogmatism I was referring to was to accept translations lock, stock

and barrel, without considering other options.  Even scholars make mistakes,

and if the connotation of a term can be conveyed better by a different word, I

am suggesting that it should be considered.  But again, for the 3rd time, I

never suggested that the correct translation of xie as sedate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Roseanne,

 

I completely respect what you are saying, and perhaps you are able to apply a

precision understanding to the complex poetic language of Chinese medical

language.  My impression in the years I was in school, as well as the years I

have been in practice is that most people thrive on the vagueness of the English

translated terminology, most not having a clue as to the precise differences in

terms used.  And that bothers me.  I love the poetry of the language used, I

love the forgiveness that formulas and acupuncture prescriptions offer us, so

that if we don't get it exactly right, often they work, nonetheless.  But that

lack of precision can lead to complacency.  Just like cookbook Chinese medicine

and acupuncture works most of the time, so two does a lack of precision in skill

or knowledge.  That, in my view, is the root of mediocrity and I feel two many

of us have found that acceptable.  I don't and that's one of the reasons why we

are engaging in

the conversation on this subject.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote:

 

 

RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed

> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like

> Westerners, whether we like it or not.

 

I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally,

I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of

understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my

upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of

explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it

has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of

acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea

of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi.

 

RoseAnne

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dear friend Z'ev,

 

In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are

taking is dogmatic.  Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term

sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver,

doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit.  That is specifically why I, as an

English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to

understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

modern usage bastardized it.  And it seems to be a very appropriate word to

describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I

think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs.  It is there

that our controversy seems to be playing out.  

 

 I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent

in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign

language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one

actually thinks in the language.  I still think in English, and sometimes make

silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. 

When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking

environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was

thinking in Hebrew.  But that was when I was 22.  As we age, we become less

resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late

50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily.  " Ah but I

was so much older than, I'm younger than that now "  

 

The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest

that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language,

and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese

which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew.  And without

thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese

mindset. 

 

That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new

Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine.  If that evolves in

the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily.  But as our sages

say, " Who is the wise person, the one  who learns from all people. "   We live in

a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information.  There is tremendous

connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and

new.  I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind

successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the

beautiful Chinese medical tree.  But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it

has to be connected to the roots.  Otherwise it won't have the integrity or

viability to survive.  This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my

opinion.  Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism.  I don't think

it will

last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health

consciousness conventions, are around.  There is much wisdom in the West as well

as the East.  Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to

due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our

birthright.  

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are

interchanged in English without precision.  This is why I feel that

understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process.  

Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a

problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different

from anesthetizing.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

 

I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in  English is not enough. 

Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms

connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source

of the verb be considered in order to be viable.  I would suggest that the same

process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered

when understanding the characters.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent

scholar such as he may have chosen.  But I am not interested in translating

terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what

the terms mean.  Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly

English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant

necessarily.  That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways,

and if a term cannot be translated  appropriately in one word, then it should be

left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps

neither scholar nor clinician.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

<zrosenbe

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda,

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa

always circulates the qi.

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

here in the West.

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea:

> The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is

> not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The

> mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our

> upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners,

> whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless

> we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a

> round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

> literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look

> at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie

> Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look

> for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth,

> hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently

> filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so

> effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula

> " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "

> Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of

> encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared

> out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

> " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I

> would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the

> case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine

> was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective

> symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very

> difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally

> fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the

> ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern

> Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider,

> that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so

> completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest

> that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating

> what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First,

> Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original

> text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms.

>

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion

> then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has

> a very different connotation than the connotation of the term

> anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I

> find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to

> quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver.

>

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree

> may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais

> Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and

> truth.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

> Yehuda

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree, and I think that that is part of the problem--a distinction is not made

in terms of actions relative to the two very different therapies.  And it goes

without saying, that this fallacy of herbal actions being identical with

acupuncture actions is being perpetuated in every school of Chinese medicine

that I know of, whether in the US, anywhere else in the Western world, and, of

course, in China as well.  We all have had professors from China who equate the

two. And it's a terrible mistake, and another example of the complacent

vagueness of our medicine, in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

 

<johnkokko

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:36 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda,

Based on what your wrote,

 

it seems " sedation " could fit with herbalism/formulais m as there are some

herbs that do have sedative effects,

however, " clearing " and " draining " can fit for certain categories as well.

 

" Draining " and " unobstructing " does make a lot more sense for acupuncture

channels/ points,

while " sedating " is certainly an inaccurate term for opening / clearing the

channels through acupuncture.

 

Does Nigel Wiseman / Bensky / Unschuld / Scheid make that distinction. ..

between acupuncture terminology and herbal terminology?

 

K

 

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM, >wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear friends and colleagues,

>

> I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun with

> my esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

> Rosenberg. Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

> context, and so here is our conversation, thus far. I post this with the

> caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

> Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject, as

> it has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

> anyway. Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating- -to convey a

> translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a term

> in English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

> is conveying. Here goes:

>

> Here was the comment that I originally made:

>

> " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing

> we need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,

> sedate one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for

> tenderness, spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness. In my

> patients case, I sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other

> things. "

>

> and here was Z'ev's concern:

>

> " Just wanted to point out privately that there is no such thing as

> 'sedation' in Chinese acupuncture. The terms are bu/supplement, and

> xie/drain. Sedation means to numb, to put to sleep. That is not what

> acupuncture does (unless you inject the point with lidocaine). I know half

> the profession still uses these terms, but they are simply wrong. "

>

> Yehuda:

>

> " Thank you for the reminder. Unfortunately, because there is not

> standardized terminology, and in both lectures, articles and books bu and

> xie are translated as tonify and sedate, one tends to become a creature of

> habit.

>

> That being said, consider if you would, that the etymological source

> of " sedate " is the Latin: sedatus which means to compose, moderate,

> or quiet, which is pretty accurate as to what we are trying to do with an

> overactive liver, no? Maybe the exact translation of the term xie is drain,

> but are we attempting to lessen the volume of a replete liver, in terms of

> its content (as in draining a sink) or are we attempting to calm a

> hyperactive child, as it were? It seems to me that the action would be

> more similar to the latter. The source of tonify on the other hand,

> is the Greek, Tonus, which means to stretch, as in a rope. Bu doesn't seem

> to convey that meaning, and in that case I would agree, that the action

> could more accurately be called supplementing.

>

> I think that more important than exactly translating the terminology,

> sometimes it is important to choose a more interpretive translation when

> trying to convey a certain concept in a different language. I find that

> frequently in Hebrew, too, that when I translate exactly, the gist of the

> meaning is lost.

>

> This is an interesting idea to exchange. I wouldn't mind posting it on CHA

> and TCM if you aren't opposed to it. "

>

> Z'ev:

>

> " Not opposed at all. . .

>

> One clarification that may be helpful is that with acupuncture/ moxa we are

> dealing with channels primarily, and literally moving qi in specific ways,

> to and from channels and points. The direct visceral relationships are not

> the same as with herbal medicine, i.e. shu gan, or calm the liver, which is

> different entirely. Patients may feel more calm or relaxed during and after

> acupuncture, but this is a result of balancing the channels, not of a

> physiological 'sedation'.

>

> The term for sedate or sedation in chinese is wen3 稳 . . ..

>

> Now to continue our discussion:

>

> This brings up another interesting idea to consider: do the terms that we

> use to describe therapeutic actions reflect the objective physiological

> change in the patient or their subjective sensation. It would seem to me

> that the Chinese are more concerned with the former, as reflected in changes

> in the pulse.

>

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: The

> medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is not the same

> as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The mindset that we bring

> to our practices is one that was formed by our upbringing, education and

> environment. We think like Westerners, whether we like it or not.

> Therefore, I would contend, that unless we speak and think in Chinese when

> we see patients, we are fitting a round peg into a square hole, by

> attempting to translate terms literally, without considering the etymology

> of the English. Look at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the

> formula " Xie Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's

> look for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir Francis

> Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, hath

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently filtering

> the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so effective for small

> children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula " Qing Fei Yin " which is

> translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " Clear comes from the Old French

> " cler " which can mean free of encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is

> transformed and cleared out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't

> comment on the tem " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in

> Chinese, though I would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if

> that's the case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

>

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine was

> more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective symptoms, in

> determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very difficult, if not

> next to impossible for someone who is not equally fluent in Chinese and

> English to clearly develop the mindset of the ancient Chinese physician. It

> is difficult enough for the modern Chinese physician/scholar. I would

> suggest as an ignorant outsider, that this would be because the

> terminology is integrated and so completely different from Western

> languages. 3. I would suggest that as Westerners we need to take a two

> step process in proximating what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical

> terminology: First, Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their

> original text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated

> terms.

>

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion then

> heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has a very

> different connotation than the connotation of the term anesthetize, and

> based upon the above discussion and research I find it less objectionable

> to use it in the context that I chose, to quiet the liver, which is very

> different than calming the liver.

>

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree may our

> discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais Hillel and Bais

> Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and truth.

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

> Yehuda

>

>

[Guest guest]

My dear friend Yehuda,

A couple of points here:

 

1) I was responding to your original example, which was an acupuncture

treatment performed in your clinical program. There isn't any way

that one can translate xie as 'sedate' in acupuncture. Nearly all

modern translators, including those working with Eastland Press, have

abandoned sedate as an equivalent for xie. Sedate is wrong

etymologically and clinically speaking. It leads to a serious

misconception as to how acupuncture and moxabustion work.

 

2) In herbal medicine, certainly one can describe liver drainage in

different ways and use different terms and/or approaches, but again

one wouldn't translate xie as sedate or sedation. I don't think you'd

find one Chinese dictionary, either medical or general, that would do

so. There are terms such as calm or level/ping2 å¹³ , subdue/qian2

潜, or settle or calm/zhen4 镇.

 

3) Certainly flexibility in translation is important, but there are

rules to language and term choice. My only point is that sedate or

sedation is never the correct choice for xie, especially in

acupuncture, and I will not budge on that, 'dogmatic' as it may be. . .

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 8:21 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

>

> My dear friend Z'ev,

>

> In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the

> approach you are taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature

> chooses to use the term sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming

> an irritable and replete liver, doesn't mean that its use doesn't

> have merit. That is specifically why I, as an English speaker,

> chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to understand

> as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

> modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate

> word to describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would

> add, though, that I think that the main problem that we have is with

> action verbs. It is there that our controversy seems to be playing

> out.

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in -

on the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious that

correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of those

instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how

we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get

things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism of the

etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how 'torpid intake' is an

improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' - I never knew the word

'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't

relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too.

Regards

Daniel

[Guest guest]

I think you have said a lot of wise useful ways for us practitioners to go on

understanding each other, over the next decades. We don't yet need  a quorum of

terminology.

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, wrote:

 

 

Re: Terminology and Etymology

, " TCM "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 11:21 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My dear friend Z'ev,

 

 

 

In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are

taking is dogmatic.  Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term

sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver,

doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit.  That is specifically why I, as an

English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to

understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before

modern usage bastardized it.  And it seems to be a very appropriate word to

describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I

think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs.  It is there

that our controversy seems to be playing out.  

 

 

 

 I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent

in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign

language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one

actually thinks in the language.  I still think in English, and sometimes make

silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. 

When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking

environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was

thinking in Hebrew.  But that was when I was 22.  As we age, we become less

resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late

50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily.  " Ah but I

was so much older than, I'm younger than that now "  

 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest

that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language,

and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese

which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew.  And without

thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese

mindset. 

 

 

 

That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new

Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine.  If that evolves in

the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily.   But as our sages

say, " Who is the wise person, the one  who learns from all people. "   We live in

a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information.  There is tremendous

connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and

new.  I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind

successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the

beautiful Chinese medical tree.  But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it

has to be connected to the roots.  Otherwise it won't have the integrity or

viability to survive.  This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my

opinion.  Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism.  I don't think

it

will

 

last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health

consciousness conventions, are around.  There is much wisdom in the West as well

as the East.  Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to

due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our

birthright.  

 

 

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

 

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

 

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

 

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

 

here in the West.

 

 

 

As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are

interchanged in English without precision.  This is why I feel that

understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process.  

Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a

problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different

from anesthetizing.

 

 

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

 

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

 

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

 

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

 

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

 

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

 

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

 

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

 

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

 

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

 

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in  English is not enough. 

Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms

connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source

of the verb be considered in order to be viable.  I would suggest that the same

process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered

when understanding the characters.

 

 

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

 

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

 

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

 

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

 

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

 

I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent

scholar such as he may have chosen.  But I am not interested in translating

terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what

the terms mean.  Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly

English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant

necessarily.  That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways,

and if a term cannot be translated  appropriately in one word, then it should be

left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps

neither scholar nor clinician.

 

 

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

 

 

 

<zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

 

Re: Terminology and Etymology

 

 

 

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM

 

 

 

Yehuda,

 

Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are

 

resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese

 

medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in

 

our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without

 

turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I

 

believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by

 

studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate

 

that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and

 

functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses

 

'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With

 

sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa

 

always circulates the qi.

 

 

 

Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is

 

universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e.

 

hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to

 

understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions

 

here in the West.

 

 

 

The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the

 

beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It

 

shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term

 

misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still

 

using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains

 

with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately

 

understand the target language and culture (English or other Western

 

languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team

 

of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know

 

English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese

 

well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation.

 

 

 

Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several

 

languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical

 

Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term

 

choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going

 

to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. .

 

 

 

 

 

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

 

 

> But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea:

 

> The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is

 

> not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The

 

> mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our

 

> upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners,

 

> whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless

 

> we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a

 

> round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms

 

> literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look

 

> at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie

 

> Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look

 

> for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

 

> English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

 

> Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth,

 

> hath

 

> become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently

 

> filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so

 

> effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula

 

> " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. "

 

> Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of

 

> encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared

 

> out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem

 

> " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I

 

> would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the

 

> case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes

 

> from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

 

>

 

> Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine

 

> was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective

 

> symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very

 

> difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally

 

> fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the

 

> ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern

 

> Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider,

 

> that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so

 

> completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest

 

> that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating

 

> what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First,

 

> Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original

 

> text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms.

 

>

 

> Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion

 

> then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has

 

> a very different connotation than the connotation of the term

 

> anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I

 

> find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to

 

> quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver.

 

>

 

> Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree

 

> may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais

 

> Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and

 

> truth.

 

>

 

> Respectfully,

 

>

 

>

 

> Yehuda

 

 

 

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

 

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

 

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes... my American teachers used the Chinese terms more than the Chinese

teachers did.

For instance, Robert Johns would say " Bu, Xie or Ping "

for Supplementation, Draining or Even acu-techniques.

I learned " Tonify " and " Sedate " from the Chinese teachers speaking in

translation.

 

It would have been much better if we were taught the Pinyin for all of the

terms to begin with

and that's all we used in school, classroom, clinic and conversations.

Along with the character study and constant practice, there would be no room

for poor translations.

 

But, it's difficult because the books on the CA state board and NCCAOM

recommended list

all have different terminologies.

We can thank Maciocia and the rest of the authors for the diverse terms that

we use in our professional vocabulary.

I don't see Maciocia's texts going off of the shelves any time soon.

Those who studied TCM from those texts are teaching others with the same

terminology.

For every Wiseman-head out there, there are five Maciocia-heads.

 

So, we may have to put our foot down and do something in order to have

consistency.

Maybe the best way is just to use the Chinese in the first place and not to

veer from that.

I mean, who do we need to translate for? Our patients?

 

Of course, I need to learn Chinese first and this conversation is inspiring

me to put the time in to do just that.

This harkens back to our conversation about Korean medicine and the need for

bilingual teachers.

As Mark Twain said, " East is East and West is West and never the twain shall

meet. "

Oops.. that was Kipling. Sorry for my poor translation.

 

K

 

 

K

 

 

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:27 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> I agree, and I think that that is part of the problem--a distinction is not

> made in terms of actions relative to the two very different therapies. And

> it goes without saying, that this fallacy of herbal actions being identical

> with acupuncture actions is being perpetuated in every school of Chinese

> medicine that I know of, whether in the US, anywhere else in the Western

> world, and, of course, in China as well. We all have had professors from

> China who equate the two. And it's a terrible mistake, and another example

> of the complacent vagueness of our medicine, in my opinion.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> Re: Terminology and Etymology

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:36 PM

>

> Yehuda,

> Based on what your wrote,

>

> it seems " sedation " could fit with herbalism/formulais m as there are some

>

> herbs that do have sedative effects,

> however, " clearing " and " draining " can fit for certain categories as well.

>

> " Draining " and " unobstructing " does make a lot more sense for acupuncture

> channels/ points,

> while " sedating " is certainly an inaccurate term for opening / clearing the

> channels through acupuncture.

>

> Does Nigel Wiseman / Bensky / Unschuld / Scheid make that distinction. ..

> between acupuncture terminology and herbal terminology?

>

> K

>

> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM, wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dear friends and colleagues,

> >

> > I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun

> with

> > my esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

> > Rosenberg. Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

> > context, and so here is our conversation, thus far. I post this with the

> > caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

> > Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject,

> as

> > it has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

> > anyway. Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating- -to convey

> a

> > translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a

> term

> > in English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

> > is conveying. Here goes:

> >

> > Here was the comment that I originally made:

> >

> > " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing

> > we need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,

> > sedate one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for

> > tenderness, spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness. In my

> > patients case, I sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other

> > things. "

> >

> > and here was Z'ev's concern:

> >

> > " Just wanted to point out privately that there is no such thing as

> > 'sedation' in Chinese acupuncture. The terms are bu/supplement, and

> > xie/drain. Sedation means to numb, to put to sleep. That is not what

> > acupuncture does (unless you inject the point with lidocaine). I know

> half

> > the profession still uses these terms, but they are simply wrong. "

> >

> > Yehuda:

> >

> > " Thank you for the reminder. Unfortunately, because there is not

> > standardized terminology, and in both lectures, articles and books bu and

> > xie are translated as tonify and sedate, one tends to become a creature

> of

> > habit.

> >

> > That being said, consider if you would, that the etymological source

> > of " sedate " is the Latin: sedatus which means to compose, moderate,

> > or quiet, which is pretty accurate as to what we are trying to do with an

> > overactive liver, no? Maybe the exact translation of the term xie is

> drain,

> > but are we attempting to lessen the volume of a replete liver, in terms

> of

> > its content (as in draining a sink) or are we attempting to calm a

> > hyperactive child, as it were? It seems to me that the action would be

> > more similar to the latter. The source of tonify on the other hand,

> > is the Greek, Tonus, which means to stretch, as in a rope. Bu doesn't

> seem

> > to convey that meaning, and in that case I would agree, that the action

> > could more accurately be called supplementing.

> >

> > I think that more important than exactly translating the terminology,

> > sometimes it is important to choose a more interpretive translation when

> > trying to convey a certain concept in a different language. I find that

> > frequently in Hebrew, too, that when I translate exactly, the gist of the

> > meaning is lost.

> >

> > This is an interesting idea to exchange. I wouldn't mind posting it on

> CHA

> > and TCM if you aren't opposed to it. "

> >

> > Z'ev:

> >

> > " Not opposed at all. . .

> >

> > One clarification that may be helpful is that with acupuncture/ moxa we

> are

> > dealing with channels primarily, and literally moving qi in specific

> ways,

> > to and from channels and points. The direct visceral relationships are

> not

> > the same as with herbal medicine, i.e. shu gan, or calm the liver, which

> is

> > different entirely. Patients may feel more calm or relaxed during and

> after

> > acupuncture, but this is a result of balancing the channels, not of a

> > physiological 'sedation'.

> >

> > The term for sedate or sedation in chinese is wen3 ÎÈ . . ..

> >

> > Now to continue our discussion:

> >

> > This brings up another interesting idea to consider: do the terms that we

> > use to describe therapeutic actions reflect the objective physiological

> > change in the patient or their subjective sensation. It would seem to me

> > that the Chinese are more concerned with the former, as reflected in

> changes

> > in the pulse.

> >

> > But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: The

> > medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is not the

> same

> > as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The mindset that we

> bring

> > to our practices is one that was formed by our upbringing, education and

> > environment. We think like Westerners, whether we like it or not.

> > Therefore, I would contend, that unless we speak and think in Chinese

> when

> > we see patients, we are fitting a round peg into a square hole, by

> > attempting to translate terms literally, without considering the

> etymology

> > of the English. Look at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at

> the

> > formula " Xie Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. "

> Let's

> > look for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> > English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis

> > Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, hath

> > become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently filtering

> > the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so effective for small

> > children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula " Qing Fei Yin " which is

> > translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " Clear comes from the Old French

> > " cler " which can mean free of encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is

> > transformed and cleared out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't

> > comment on the tem " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in

> > Chinese, though I would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But

> if

> > that's the case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize

> comes

> > from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

> >

> > Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine was

> > more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective symptoms, in

> > determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very difficult, if not

> > next to impossible for someone who is not equally fluent in Chinese and

> > English to clearly develop the mindset of the ancient Chinese physician.

> It

> > is difficult enough for the modern Chinese physician/scholar. I would

> > suggest as an ignorant outsider, that this would be because the

> > terminology is integrated and so completely different from Western

> > languages. 3. I would suggest that as Westerners we need to take a two

> > step process in proximating what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical

> > terminology: First, Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in

> their

> > original text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated

> > terms.

> >

> > Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion then

> > heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has a very

> > different connotation than the connotation of the term anesthetize, and

> > based upon the above discussion and research I find it less objectionable

> > to use it in the context that I chose, to quiet the liver, which is very

> > different than calming the liver.

> >

> > Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree may

> our

> > discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais Hillel and

> Bais

> > Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and truth.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I see a couple of interesting points here:

 

 

 

I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the

concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy

reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more

importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down in

English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or even

four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances

that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English.

 

 

 

To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not

precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass

more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is

contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese

phrase 'I get it.' because I don't.

 

 

 

For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task,

because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution

for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this

word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors

nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and

phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point.

 

 

 

Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese you

will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word

for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good

chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive

for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of

words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the

passage). It is really case by case dependent.

 

 

 

In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact

meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense,

we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that!

 

 

 

Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me be

clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of

situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word

translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better

than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a

great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can

translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't

know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life.

 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

 

 

 

 

I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should

ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the

authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not

totally dependent on any one language or language skill set.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the Latin term: 

sedatus  which means to compose, moderate, or quiet.  If before I needle there

is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and after I needle the

patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they are sedate (using the noun

form)?  Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, sedation does not

mean numbing.  That is anesthesia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman wrote:

 

 

Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in - on

the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious that

correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of those

instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how

we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get

things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism of the

etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how 'torpid intake' is an

improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' - I never knew the word

'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't

relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too.

Regards

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kokko,

 

I used to think that way as well.  And I think that it is important to

understand as well as possible the gist of what the chinese medical action verbs

mean.  But I have come to realize that I will never really understand what the

implication is that is being expressed in Chinese, and for 2 reasons: 1. because

every language is unique and can't be converted exactly to another language. and

2. because in Chinese, every picture tells a story (don't it!), and to

understand the character, and the action, I would really need to understand the

inuendos behind the story of the characters, which I would suspect would be hard

for an American who has lived most of his life in Los Angeles.  Again, just ask

any Chinese medical scholar who is Chinese if these two points are valid.  They

may hem and haw and not want you to feel bad, but when it comes down to it and

push comes to shove, I'll bet you that they believe there is no way to convey

the meaning accurately

to someone who isn't living the language. 

 

Tomorrow is Samra, so I have to prepare.

 

'night

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/7/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

 

<johnkokko

Re: Terminology and Etymology

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 7, 2009, 10:32 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes... my American teachers used the Chinese terms more than the Chinese

teachers did.

For instance, Robert Johns would say " Bu, Xie or Ping "

for Supplementation, Draining or Even acu-techniques.

I learned " Tonify " and " Sedate " from the Chinese teachers speaking in

translation.

 

It would have been much better if we were taught the Pinyin for all of the

terms to begin with

and that's all we used in school, classroom, clinic and conversations.

Along with the character study and constant practice, there would be no room

for poor translations.

 

But, it's difficult because the books on the CA state board and NCCAOM

recommended list

all have different terminologies.

We can thank Maciocia and the rest of the authors for the diverse terms that

we use in our professional vocabulary.

I don't see Maciocia's texts going off of the shelves any time soon.

Those who studied TCM from those texts are teaching others with the same

terminology.

For every Wiseman-head out there, there are five Maciocia-heads.

 

So, we may have to put our foot down and do something in order to have

consistency.

Maybe the best way is just to use the Chinese in the first place and not to

veer from that.

I mean, who do we need to translate for? Our patients?

 

Of course, I need to learn Chinese first and this conversation is inspiring

me to put the time in to do just that.

This harkens back to our conversation about Korean medicine and the need for

bilingual teachers.

As Mark Twain said, " East is East and West is West and never the twain shall

meet. "

Oops.. that was Kipling. Sorry for my poor translation.

 

K

 

K

 

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:27 PM, > wrote:

 

>

>

> I agree, and I think that that is part of the problem--a distinction is not

> made in terms of actions relative to the two very different therapies. And

> it goes without saying, that this fallacy of herbal actions being identical

> with acupuncture actions is being perpetuated in every school of Chinese

> medicine that I know of, whether in the US, anywhere else in the Western

> world, and, of course, in China as well. We all have had professors from

> China who equate the two. And it's a terrible mistake, and another example

> of the complacent vagueness of our medicine, in my opinion.

>

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com<johnkokko%40gmail. com>>

> wrote:

>

> <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com <johnkokko%40gmail. com>>

> Re: Terminology and Etymology

> <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:36 PM

>

> Yehuda,

> Based on what your wrote,

>

> it seems " sedation " could fit with herbalism/formulais m as there are some

>

> herbs that do have sedative effects,

> however, " clearing " and " draining " can fit for certain categories as well.

>

> " Draining " and " unobstructing " does make a lot more sense for acupuncture

> channels/ points,

> while " sedating " is certainly an inaccurate term for opening / clearing the

> channels through acupuncture.

>

> Does Nigel Wiseman / Bensky / Unschuld / Scheid make that distinction. ..

> between acupuncture terminology and herbal terminology?

>

> K

>

> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM, >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dear friends and colleagues,

> >

> > I want to let you in on an interesting conversation that I have begun

> with

> > my esteemed friend from the south (relatively speaking, at least), Z'ev

> > Rosenberg. Z'ev noted that I had used to term sedate in an inappropriate

> > context, and so here is our conversation, thus far. I post this with the

> > caveat that I would appreciate it if those of you who object to Nigel

> > Wiseman's terminology, not bring up again this old cantankorous subject,

> as

> > it has been addressed to death, and is not what we are discussing here,

> > anyway. Rather, the issue is what is our goal in translating- -to convey

> a

> > translation from Chinese which is as exact as possible, or to select a

> term

> > in English whose etymology most closely represents what the Chinese term

> > is conveying. Here goes:

> >

> > Here was the comment that I originally made:

> >

> > " When we address a given imbalance, I think that the most important thing

> > we need to do is look at the channels most affected, and most affecting,

> > sedate one and tonify the other. Also to palpate, look and feel for

> > tenderness, spasm, skin crease, lack of symmetry and weakness. In my

> > patients case, I sedated liver and tonified spleen and Dai, among other

> > things. "

> >

> > and here was Z'ev's concern:

> >

> > " Just wanted to point out privately that there is no such thing as

> > 'sedation' in Chinese acupuncture. The terms are bu/supplement, and

> > xie/drain. Sedation means to numb, to put to sleep. That is not what

> > acupuncture does (unless you inject the point with lidocaine). I know

> half

> > the profession still uses these terms, but they are simply wrong. "

> >

> > Yehuda:

> >

> > " Thank you for the reminder. Unfortunately, because there is not

> > standardized terminology, and in both lectures, articles and books bu and

> > xie are translated as tonify and sedate, one tends to become a creature

> of

> > habit.

> >

> > That being said, consider if you would, that the etymological source

> > of " sedate " is the Latin: sedatus which means to compose, moderate,

> > or quiet, which is pretty accurate as to what we are trying to do with an

> > overactive liver, no? Maybe the exact translation of the term xie is

> drain,

> > but are we attempting to lessen the volume of a replete liver, in terms

> of

> > its content (as in draining a sink) or are we attempting to calm a

> > hyperactive child, as it were? It seems to me that the action would be

> > more similar to the latter. The source of tonify on the other hand,

> > is the Greek, Tonus, which means to stretch, as in a rope. Bu doesn't

> seem

> > to convey that meaning, and in that case I would agree, that the action

> > could more accurately be called supplementing.

> >

> > I think that more important than exactly translating the terminology,

> > sometimes it is important to choose a more interpretive translation when

> > trying to convey a certain concept in a different language. I find that

> > frequently in Hebrew, too, that when I translate exactly, the gist of the

> > meaning is lost.

> >

> > This is an interesting idea to exchange. I wouldn't mind posting it on

> CHA

> > and TCM if you aren't opposed to it. "

> >

> > Z'ev:

> >

> > " Not opposed at all. . .

> >

> > One clarification that may be helpful is that with acupuncture/ moxa we

> are

> > dealing with channels primarily, and literally moving qi in specific

> ways,

> > to and from channels and points. The direct visceral relationships are

> not

> > the same as with herbal medicine, i.e. shu gan, or calm the liver, which

> is

> > different entirely. Patients may feel more calm or relaxed during and

> after

> > acupuncture, but this is a result of balancing the channels, not of a

> > physiological 'sedation'.

> >

> > The term for sedate or sedation in chinese is wen3 稳 . . ..

> >

> > Now to continue our discussion:

> >

> > This brings up another interesting idea to consider: do the terms that we

> > use to describe therapeutic actions reflect the objective physiological

> > change in the patient or their subjective sensation. It would seem to me

> > that the Chinese are more concerned with the former, as reflected in

> changes

> > in the pulse.

> >

> > But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: The

> > medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is not the

> same

> > as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The mindset that we

> bring

> > to our practices is one that was formed by our upbringing, education and

> > environment. We think like Westerners, whether we like it or not.

> > Therefore, I would contend, that unless we speak and think in Chinese

> when

> > we see patients, we are fitting a round peg into a square hole, by

> > attempting to translate terms literally, without considering the

> etymology

> > of the English. Look at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at

> the

> > formula " Xie Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. "

> Let's

> > look for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle

> > English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir

> Francis

> > Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, hath

> > become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently filtering

> > the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so effective for small

> > children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula " Qing Fei Yin " which is

> > translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " Clear comes from the Old French

> > " cler " which can mean free of encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is

> > transformed and cleared out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't

> > comment on the tem " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in

> > Chinese, though I would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But

> if

> > that's the case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize

> comes

> > from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling.

> >

> > Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine was

> > more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective symptoms, in

> > determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very difficult, if not

> > next to impossible for someone who is not equally fluent in Chinese and

> > English to clearly develop the mindset of the ancient Chinese physician.

> It

> > is difficult enough for the modern Chinese physician/scholar. I would

> > suggest as an ignorant outsider, that this would be because the

> > terminology is integrated and so completely different from Western

> > languages. 3. I would suggest that as Westerners we need to take a two

> > step process in proximating what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical

> > terminology: First, Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in

> their

> > original text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated

> > terms.

> >

> > Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion then

> > heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has a very

> > different connotation than the connotation of the term anesthetize, and

> > based upon the above discussion and research I find it less objectionable

> > to use it in the context that I chose, to quiet the liver, which is very

> > different than calming the liver.

> >

> > Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree may

> our

> > discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais Hillel and

> Bais

> > Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and truth.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> >

> > Yehuda

> >

> >