Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Jason, I think your statement hit the target. There's a translation of the I Jing by Stephen Karcher. The book separates itself from any other that I've seen, because for every symbol and character, there's a paragraph of English synonyms for each word in Chinese. I think that the Chinese mind-set at the time they were writing the classics was much more akin to a tea-house with maples shading a rock garden, than our brick homes with the sound of a rushing traffic-river in the background. How do we reconcile this? One of my teachers said you have to also be an artist to be a doctor... not just metaphorically, but literally. You have to connect to nature (both outside and inside of yourself) through the medium of paint, calligraphy, poetry, music or dance ie. Tai-ji) By understanding our own nature, we can understand medicine. When you guys read the Chinese characters, it must be like reading a classical music score, while the orchestra simultaneously playing. A translation would make it sound like elevator music. K On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:04 AM, < > wrote: > > > I see a couple of interesting points here: > > I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the > concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy > reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more > importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down > in > English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or > even > four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances > that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English. > > To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not > precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass > more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is > contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese > phrase 'I get it.' because I don't. > > For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task, > because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution > for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this > word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors > nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and > phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point. > > Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese > you > will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word > for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good > chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive > for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of > words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the > passage). It is really case by case dependent. > > In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact > meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense, > we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that! > > > Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me > be > clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of > situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word > translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better > than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a > great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can > translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't > know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life. > > Hope that helps, > > - > > <%40> > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of > > > I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should > ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the > authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not > totally dependent on any one language or language skill set. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Z'ev, Yehuda, Doug, Alon and All, This is always a fascinating discussion, Yehuda, I don't think we can cloak it any other way. It won't leave us as long as we attempt to formulate this knowledge into English language and the corresponding derivatives of European culture. Generally, my preference is translation for the target language rather than source language, because I am more interested in the reader's experience and clarity at the point of reception. Z'ev, you said to Yehuda, I must disagree with you. If we are resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses 'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/moxa always circulates the qi. I agree with everything you say here except, that we must " make the medicine in our own image. " Medicine is a socially constructed phenomenon, and given our situation in the world, that is all we can do. Yet, doing so does not require that we make it biomedicine. Further, I do not believe that the choice of the term drain vs. sedate for the word xie is an act of " making the medicine in our own image. " That said, my preference is drain. However, If I read early 1980 acupuncture books that adopted sedation as a concept, it would still lead me to the same set of procedures. Warmly, Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Will, Perhaps a bit of misunderstanding. What I meant was that we need to try our best to understand the Chinese medical literature in its original context, then make it our own in our present life circumstances (and culture). I like what says about the garden vs. city street metaphor, although certainly we should have as much access to gardens and nature as possible. This is a key issue in the health of humanity, the lack of access to unspoiled natural settings. On May 8, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Will Morris wrote: > I agree with everything you say here except, that we must " make the > medicine in our own image. " Medicine is a socially constructed > phenomenon, and given our situation in the world, that is all we can > do. > Yet, doing so does not require that we make it biomedicine. Further, I > do not believe that the choice of the term drain vs. sedate for the > word > xie is an act of " making the medicine in our own image. " That said, my > preference is drain. However, If I read early 1980 acupuncture books > that adopted sedation as a concept, it would still lead me to the same > set of procedures. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Dear Yehuda, I'm not the right person to engage with you in a conversation about the translation of Chinese medical terms. I am slowly entering into a study of the Classics through my classes with Jeffrey Yuen, but I am more at the beginning. But I think that the human physiological template is basically the same worldwide, whether one is living in China or the U.S. Culture is certainly a factor when considering how physiological sensations are interpreted, and culture and language may influence genetics on the level of say, gene expression. But I guess I just believe that underneath that, the template doesn't change (well, it can, but we call those 'defects'.) So all this is just to say that that is why I try to stick to the body, to ask, what is really going on physiologically, when I am trying to understand the meaning of a medical term. If I go directly to the experience of my body, I believe I will be able to 'understand' , even though I grew up in the west. Certainly there are times when I feel like I don't know what to do with that person who is lying on the treatment table in front of me. And yes, it does bother me. And that spurs me to continue my studies. Like you, I am driven to want to understand. I appreciate how you bring your questions and thoughts to this e- group, and I really enjoy following the conversations that develop. Thank you. RoseAnne, L.Ac NYC On May 7, 2009, at 10:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Roseanne, > > I completely respect what you are saying, and perhaps you are able > to apply a precision understanding to the complex poetic language > of Chinese medical language. My impression in the years I was in > school, as well as the years I have been in practice is that most > people thrive on the vagueness of the English translated > terminology, most not having a clue as to the precise differences > in terms used. And that bothers me. I love the poetry of the > language used, I love the forgiveness that formulas and acupuncture > prescriptions offer us, so that if we don't get it exactly right, > often they work, nonetheless. But that lack of precision can lead > to complacency. Just like cookbook Chinese medicine and > acupuncture works most of the time, so two does a lack of precision > in skill or knowledge. That, in my view, is the root of mediocrity > and I feel two many of us have found that acceptable. I don't and > that's one of the reasons why we are engaging in > the conversation on this subject. > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote: > > > RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 > Re: Terminology and Etymology > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM > > > On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > >> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed >> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like >> Westerners, whether we like it or not. > > I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally, > I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of > understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my > upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of > explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it > has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of > acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea > of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi. > > RoseAnne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 RoseAnne, I appreciate your intellectual honesty in your search for clarity. As I have expressed, I really sense that we are missing something that Chinese language speakers have. And I believe, that included in that boat are some of our esteemed writers and even translators of Chinese medical texts, who though they can read medical Chinese, can't speak and don't think in it. Based on that state of affairs, I believe that 3 alternative courses of action can be taken: 1. accept the reality, and nonetheless immerse oneself in medical chinese in original texts to, at the very least, widen one's base of knowledge and at least begin the journey of understanding. I would use the analogy of a blind person who studies diligently Braille texts in order to learn how to paint, and at the same time engages in medical procedures to give him maybe not vision, but at least shades and hues.. Tough, and alot of work, but doable. 2. Continue the Status quo, reading all the latest Maciocia and poeticly vague texts out of China and elsewhere, and thinking that one has " arrived " as a scholar and master of Chinese medicine. These are the folks who take the path of the state board exams: They know how to answer all the questions, and might even be OK as technical practitioners, but in my opinion, they will never master the art of Chinese medicine. 3. Then there are some who recognize that they may be too old or not have the ability or desire to take upon themselves alternative #1, but they are also not satisfied with alternative #2. They are the practitioners who are students, who seek out those who have a connection to the real thing, masters and scholars who can give them more than just a taste of it. They are those who seek to integrate, harmonize and of course, question, realizing their limitation, and yes, who will also become writers, or rather compilers of this new branch of Chinese medicine--the Westernized branch. Perhaps in one or two generations, this branch will be stable, strong and even nourish the main trunk of medicine and physicians that come from China, but I think that those of us who take this third way, would be wise to work on ourselves rather than try to influence scholars in China. I don't think that they would take us seriously, anyway. For if so, we run the danger of falling back into the second category. 'just some musings.... --- On Fri, 5/8/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote: RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 Re: Terminology and Etymology Chinese Medicine Friday, May 8, 2009, 6:28 AM Dear Yehuda, I'm not the right person to engage with you in a conversation about the translation of Chinese medical terms. I am slowly entering into a study of the Classics through my classes with Jeffrey Yuen, but I am more at the beginning. But I think that the human physiological template is basically the same worldwide, whether one is living in China or the U.S. Culture is certainly a factor when considering how physiological sensations are interpreted, and culture and language may influence genetics on the level of say, gene expression. But I guess I just believe that underneath that, the template doesn't change (well, it can, but we call those 'defects'.) So all this is just to say that that is why I try to stick to the body, to ask, what is really going on physiologically, when I am trying to understand the meaning of a medical term. If I go directly to the experience of my body, I believe I will be able to 'understand' , even though I grew up in the west. Certainly there are times when I feel like I don't know what to do with that person who is lying on the treatment table in front of me. And yes, it does bother me. And that spurs me to continue my studies. Like you, I am driven to want to understand. I appreciate how you bring your questions and thoughts to this e- group, and I really enjoy following the conversations that develop. Thank you. RoseAnne, L.Ac NYC On May 7, 2009, at 10:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Roseanne, > > I completely respect what you are saying, and perhaps you are able > to apply a precision understanding to the complex poetic language > of Chinese medical language. My impression in the years I was in > school, as well as the years I have been in practice is that most > people thrive on the vagueness of the English translated > terminology, most not having a clue as to the precise differences > in terms used. And that bothers me. I love the poetry of the > language used, I love the forgiveness that formulas and acupuncture > prescriptions offer us, so that if we don't get it exactly right, > often they work, nonetheless. But that lack of precision can lead > to complacency. Just like cookbook Chinese medicine and > acupuncture works most of the time, so two does a lack of precision > in skill or knowledge. That, in my view, is the root of mediocrity > and I feel two many of us have found that acceptable. I don't and > that's one of the reasons why we are engaging in > the conversation on this subject. > > Respectfully, > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 wrote: > > > RoseAnne Spradlin <ra6151 > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:29 PM > > > On May 7, 2009, at 2:38 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > >> The mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed >> by our upbringing, education and environment. We think like >> Westerners, whether we like it or not. > > I think each individual's mindset is, well, individual. Personally, > I think I have a feel for eastern forms of medicine and ways of > understanding the body that seem to have little to do with my > upbringing, education and environment as a westerner. My own way of > explaining this to myself, at least at this point in time, is that it > has to do with embodiment. From my own sense of embodiment of > acupuncture channels and Qi, I have no problem at all with the idea > of " draining " or " redirecting " the flow of Qi. > > RoseAnne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Heres a potent quote I keep posted by my desk: " If you want to develop acupuncture, if you want to make it grow and spread, you have to be very strict in the way that you learn things, rigorous or strict in the way that we learn the words. Because if we employ words which are not accurate, we are not going to learn anything. Because in Chinese medicine, every single word has a deep meaning, and if we don't use them correctly, we may end up making errors. And if there are errors in comprehension we cannot help our patients, we cannot get results. And a medical science where there are no results is a science that has no future. That is why we are very strict about the terminology. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Anyway, the Chinese character for xie is made up of 2 radicals: one half of the Character is the radical for " water " - and the second part indicates the pronunciation. Another powerful quote by Dr. Tran, slightly off topic: " There are three things that I am sure about that I would like to explain to you in a very simple way: First of all, the further I get into my studies of acupuncture the more I realize how little I know, that I know nothing; Two: among my patients there are lots of failures, I fail to cure a lot of people. But there is one thing I am sure about: that if I don't succeed in curing my patients, it is not the fault of acupuncture: I haven't reached the height of my prowess, I haven't reached the peak of my possibilities and achievements. There is acupuncture and there are acupuncturists. Thirdly, I notice that often when I fail to cure someone, it's because I haven't properly grasped the technique; that is, I use a technique, often, that I haven't really understood. That's why I believe, that when you puncture a point in acupuncture, you have to understand the meaning of that action, you have to understand the meaning of what we do. We have to understand the deeper meaning of acupuncture. Because if you puncture a point, and you don't understand why you're puncturing it, if you're just doing it because the Chinese say you that have to do it, or other people say you have to do it, if it's just a 'reflex' point, without any proper interpretation or real understanding, according to my experience, the results are not good. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Harry F. Lardner, Projects Editor Peoples Medical Publishing House Beijing, China Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 RoseAnne, I agree with you. I think we can tap into that sense of universal, not matter what our ethnic background is. It's more a sense of zen-mind (open and empty and not-knowing) than a color of our skin or soul. I've had experiences with different groups where that came through, not because I completely assimilated with their cultural habits, but because I was open to the experience. Most of this comes through silence, the rest is ritual. So, I see the value in becoming a linguist, because the depth of the medicine is encoded in the ritual of doing the same thing these ancestors of ours were doing over and over again. It's like observing the holy days and being mindful of our steps. In a way, we become our ancestors when we perform the rituals. How can it not be? " We carry them in our chest " (quoting J.Yuen) K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 I would like to point out that in a professional lingo a word can mean anything the lingo decides it means. Does it really matter if we call it drain, sedate or tomato as long as we know what we are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Hi Alon: --Alon- I would like to point out that in a professional lingo a word can mean anything the lingo decides it means. Does it really matter if we call it drain, sedate or tomato as long as we know what we are talking about? --- It matters only so long as 1. many practitioners *don't* know what they are talking about, and 2. if mind-intent is a real phenomena, then knowing exactly what one is doing and why becomes essential, in which case very accurate and internally coherent terminology sets become important. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Alon Marcus <alonmarcus Chinese Medicine Friday, 8 May, 2009 11:57:10 Re:Terminology and Etymology www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Koko the whole issue is not simple. Just look at Arnaud teachings. I don't think i have ever seen anyone teaching in English that can explain many of the most difficult ideas in CM as clearly as he does. He definitely does not believe in a fixed set of word choices in any way shape or form, and does not like the methodology of W terminology. That said, i think he uses drain when talking about this in acup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Kokko, To my observation and understanding, you express exactly how I feel. As was expressed earlier in this discussion that speaking any language requires thinking in that language as well, I would agree that with Chinese there is the additional element of its artistry. So when we consider Chinese medicine, we have three dynamics that need to be considered in order to really swim with the greats: 1. a mastery of the language to the point of thinking it, 2. Acquiring the ability to feel the language and 3. Practicing medicine as an art form. Truly daunting for those who choose to embark upon this Everest-like task. --- On Fri, 5/8/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology Friday, May 8, 2009, 8:10 AM Jason, I think your statement hit the target. There's a translation of the I Jing by Stephen Karcher. The book separates itself from any other that I've seen, because for every symbol and character, there's a paragraph of English synonyms for each word in Chinese. I think that the Chinese mind-set at the time they were writing the classics was much more akin to a tea-house with maples shading a rock garden, than our brick homes with the sound of a rushing traffic-river in the background. How do we reconcile this? One of my teachers said you have to also be an artist to be a doctor... not just metaphorically, but literally. You have to connect to nature (both outside and inside of yourself) through the medium of paint, calligraphy, poetry, music or dance ie. Tai-ji) By understanding our own nature, we can understand medicine. When you guys read the Chinese characters, it must be like reading a classical music score, while the orchestra simultaneously playing. A translation would make it sound like elevator music. K On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:04 AM, < @chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote: > > > I see a couple of interesting points here: > > I completely agree with Doug's idea below, it many times is more about the > concept than the " word. " For example, there are two reasons why I enjoy > reading in Chinese 1) because of the very logical structure, but more > importantly to this conversation is 2) many of the words that we pin down > in > English I see as more concepts in Chinese. Within a single 'concept' or > even > four character phrase, there is a whole spectrum of meanings, and nuances > that can become easily lost when one pin that down to a word in English. > > To elaborate, many times the Chinese is more precise because it is not > precise. Many Chinese phrases are meant to be kind of vague or encompass > more than one might think at first reading. Part of understanding it is > contemplation in a larger scale. I find that when I read such a Chinese > phrase 'I get it.' because I don't. > > For example, when I try to translate it, it becomes a monstrous task, > because as soon as I assign a word, then this word becomes a substitution > for sometimes a whole host of nuanced meanings. To contemplate things, this > word might be dependent of the context of the passage or even the Authors > nuanced usage. This can be the key to getting many Chinese words and > phrases, and even a English speaker overtime can start to get this point. > > Therefore, Yehuda is somewhat correct if you are not thinking in Chinese > you > will miss the boat. If you are just reading and substituting 1 English word > for 1 Chinese character when you read (which I used to do) you have a good > chance of missing something. (This is not to say we should not still strive > for the best translation possible, but sometimes this may be a string of > words, a single word, or a long footnote, or a fuzzy idea based on the > passage). It is really case by case dependent. > > In the West, I think Doug also mentioned this, our minds want the exact > meaning, we want precision. If one cannot access Chinese, this makes sense, > we want the best possible translation as possible, who can argue with that! > > > Before some takes my commentary as some black and white statement, let me > be > clear. I am not saying that Chinese is not precise. There are plenty of > situations (probably the majority) that require a very precise single word > translation. I am not suggesting one system or way of translating is better > than any other. I am not suggesting one must be fluent in Chinese to be a > great practitioner. There are people that are fluent, teach, and can > translate and have little clinical experience. There are those that don't > know a lick of Chinese that I would trust with my life. > > Hope that helps, > > - > > < %40. com> > [< %40. com>] > On Behalf Of > > > I am no way saying in my provocative comments that English could or should > ever be the " lingua franca " of only that learning the > authentic " word " is not the culprit. It is in the concept and that is not > totally dependent on any one language or language skill set. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Hi Yehuda and All: --Yehuda- sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they are sedate (using the noun form)? --- The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably with actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, with a root as you describe it, does not fit with drain. Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be described as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, cannot be described in this manner (since they drain), although they are likely to have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their dosage, combination and length of use. Thoughts? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Chinese Medicine Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 Re: Terminology and Etymology Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the Latin term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, sedation does not mean numbing. That is anesthesia. www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > wrote: Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > Re: Terminology and Etymology Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious that correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of those instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I don't see how we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain things and get things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the dogmatism of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, my patients certainly can't relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' sounds bizarre too. Regards Daniel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Wow Jason, I would trust a loved one of mine with you, esp hearing the things you just said, thanks. You, and many many people on this group are really good herbalists, if not the best. But your education is not confined in the western sense. You have imagination. Everybody has stock formulas for common presentations. But when you hear feel smell intuit, you can tailor it to fit not just the present attack, but reach in. --- On Fri, 5/8/09, wrote: RE: Re: Terminology and Etymology Friday, May 8, 2009, 9:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described differently does not change those laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up they will miss the view. Douglas ________________________________ ; TCM <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:21:30 PM Re: Terminology and Etymology My dear friend Z'ev, In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver, doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit. That is specifically why I, as an English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate word to describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs. It is there that our controversy seems to be playing out. I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one actually thinks in the language. I still think in English, and sometimes make silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was thinking in Hebrew. But that was when I was 22. As we age, we become less resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late 50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily. " Ah but I was so much older than, I'm younger than that now " The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language, and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew. And without thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese mindset. That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine. If that evolves in the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily. But as our sages say, " Who is the wise person, the one who learns from all people. " We live in a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information. There is tremendous connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and new. I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the beautiful Chinese medical tree. But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it has to be connected to the roots. Otherwise it won't have the integrity or viability to survive. This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my opinion. Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism. I don't think it will last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health consciousness conventions, are around. There is much wisdom in the West as well as the East. Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our birthright. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are interchanged in English without precision. This is why I feel that understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process. Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different from anesthetizing. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in English is not enough. Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source of the verb be considered in order to be viable. I would suggest that the same process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered when understanding the characters. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent scholar such as he may have chosen. But I am not interested in translating terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what the terms mean. Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant necessarily. That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways, and if a term cannot be translated appropriately in one word, then it should be left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps neither scholar nor clinician. Respectfully, www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> Re: Terminology and Etymology Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM Yehuda, Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses 'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa always circulates the qi. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: > The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is > not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The > mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our > upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners, > whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless > we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a > round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms > literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look > at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie > Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look > for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle > English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir > Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, > hath > become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently > filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so > effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula > " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " > Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of > encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared > out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem > " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I > would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the > case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes > from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling. > > Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine > was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective > symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very > difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally > fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the > ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern > Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider, > that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so > completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest > that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating > what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First, > Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original > text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms. > > Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion > then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has > a very different connotation than the connotation of the term > anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I > find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to > quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver. > > Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree > may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais > Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and > truth. > > Respectfully, > > > Yehuda Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Douglas, Have you ever compared translations of the Dao De Jing? Or the Nei Jing for that matter? There are lousy translations and good ones. Since human beings communicate largely through words and language, I think it is a mistake to ignore that connection. Again, I've taught at the TCM college level for two decades, and I can tell you words and communication are paramount concerns. On May 8, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws > transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance > as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described > differently does not change those laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " > the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language > that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one > concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up > they will miss the view. > > Douglas Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Yehuda, Yes. So, much beauty in one character. I think about how many generations it took to craft four strokes from a black-ash ink brush and to think that 81 books in the Su wen and 81 books in the Ling shu are painted by power and meaning. My film teacher at the University of Colorado, Stan Brakhage said that he made art for art's sake and didn't care if people liked it or not. Luckily for us, our craft and art can mend body and soul. We are truly fortunate. Stan painted on film and we do calligraphy on bodies. Language shows us how far we've fallen, yet it can also help us rise up from the dust. Wittgenstein and Chuang Tzu were dharma brothers. It is very difficult to talk about what we want to with approximations of approximations. It only creates contention. K On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 5:23 PM, wrote: > > > Kokko, > > To my observation and understanding, you express exactly how I feel. As > was expressed earlier in this discussion that speaking any language > requires thinking in that language as well, I would agree that with Chinese > there is the additional element of its artistry. So when we consider > Chinese medicine, we have three dynamics that need to be considered in order > to really swim with the greats: 1. a mastery of the language to the point of > thinking it, 2. Acquiring the ability to feel the language and 3. Practicing > medicine as an art form. > > Truly daunting for those who choose to embark upon this Everest-like > task. > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/8/09, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology > <%40> > Friday, May 8, 2009, 8:10 AM > > Jason, > I think your statement hit the target. > There's a translation of the I Jing by Stephen Karcher. > The book separates itself from any other that I've seen, > because for every symbol and character, there's a paragraph of > English synonyms for each word in Chinese. > > I think that the Chinese mind-set at the time they were writing the > classics > was much more akin to a tea-house with maples shading a rock garden, > than our brick homes with the sound of a rushing traffic-river in the > background. > How do we reconcile this? > > One of my teachers said you have to also be an artist to be a doctor... > not just metaphorically, but literally. > You have to connect to nature (both outside and inside of yourself) > through the medium of paint, calligraphy, poetry, music or dance ie. > Tai-ji) > By understanding our own nature, we can understand medicine. > > When you guys read the Chinese characters, it must be like reading a > classical music score, > while the orchestra simultaneously playing. A translation would make it > sound like elevator music. > > K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Douglas: --DK- Lao Tsu stated succinctly " the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up they will miss the view. --- So the trick *then* becomes - if we worry less about the translation and not so much about the Chinese, how do we manage to see the view when we are lodged into the English language? There still needs to be a method of breaking out of our habit of fixating on the finger rather than seeing moon. All of these points have merit. In my opnion, there are two reliable and powerful ways to get to the deepest heart of : 1. Learn the lanaguage in the context of CM, or 2. Qi Gong / meditation / contemplation Neither point is achieved with a modest effort. They are both major pursuits. We also should not understate the difficulty of the topic at hand, as much as we do not want to complicate it. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman Chinese Medicine Friday, 8 May, 2009 15:20:17 Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described differently does not change those laws. Douglas ____________ _________ _________ __ > ; TCM <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:21:30 PM Re: Terminology and Etymology My dear friend Z'ev, In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver, doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit. That is specifically why I, as an English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate word to describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs. It is there that our controversy seems to be playing out. I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one actually thinks in the language. I still think in English, and sometimes make silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was thinking in Hebrew. But that was when I was 22. As we age, we become less resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late 50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily. " Ah but I was so much older than, I'm younger than that now " The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language, and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew. And without thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese mindset. That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine. If that evolves in the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily. But as our sages say, " Who is the wise person, the one who learns from all people. " We live in a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information. There is tremendous connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and new. I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the beautiful Chinese medical tree. But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it has to be connected to the roots. Otherwise it won't have the integrity or viability to survive. This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my opinion. Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism. I don't think it will last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health consciousness conventions, are around. There is much wisdom in the West as well as the East. Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our birthright. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are interchanged in English without precision. This is why I feel that understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process. Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different from anesthetizing. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in English is not enough. Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source of the verb be considered in order to be viable. I would suggest that the same process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered when understanding the characters. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent scholar such as he may have chosen. But I am not interested in translating terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what the terms mean. Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant necessarily. That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways, and if a term cannot be translated appropriately in one word, then it should be left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps neither scholar nor clinician. Respectfully, www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> Re: Terminology and Etymology Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM Yehuda, Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses 'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa always circulates the qi. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: > The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is > not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The > mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our > upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners, > whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless > we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a > round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms > literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look > at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie > Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look > for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle > English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir > Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, > hath > become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently > filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so > effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula > " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " > Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of > encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared > out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem > " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I > would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the > case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes > from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling. > > Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine > was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective > symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very > difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally > fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the > ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern > Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider, > that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so > completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest > that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating > what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First, > Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original > text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms. > > Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion > then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has > a very different connotation than the connotation of the term > anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I > find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to > quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver. > > Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree > may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais > Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and > truth. > > Respectfully, > > > Yehuda Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Heres a potent quote I keep posted by my desk: " If you want to develop acupuncture, if you want to make it grow and spread, you have to be very strict in the way that you learn things, rigorous or strict in the way that we learn the words. Because if we employ words which are not accurate, we are not going to learn anything. Because in Chinese medicine, every single word has a deep meaning, and if we don't use them correctly, we may end up making errors. And if there are errors in comprehension we cannot help our patients, we cannot get results. And a medical science where there are no results is a science that has no future. That is why we are very strict about the terminology. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Anyway, the Chinese character for xie is made up of 2 radicals: one half of the Character is the radical for " water " - and the second part indicates the pronunciation. Another powerful quote by Dr. Tran, slightly off topic: " There are three things that I am sure about that I would like to explain to you in a very simple way: First of all, the further I get into my studies of acupuncture the more I realize how little I know, that I know nothing; Two: among my patients there are lots of failures, I fail to cure a lot of people. But there is one thing I am sure about: that if I don't succeed in curing my patients, it is not the fault of acupuncture: I haven't reached the height of my prowess, I haven't reached the peak of my possibilities and achievements. There is acupuncture and there are acupuncturists. Thirdly, I notice that often when I fail to cure someone, it's because I haven't properly grasped the technique; that is, I use a technique, often, that I haven't really understood. That's why I believe, that when you puncture a point in acupuncture, you have to understand the meaning of that action, you have to understand the meaning of what we do. We have to understand the deeper meaning of acupuncture. Because if you puncture a point, and you don't understand why you're puncturing it, if you're just doing it because the Chinese say you that have to do it, or other people say you have to do it, if it's just a 'reflex' point, without any proper interpretation or real understanding, according to my experience, the results are not good. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Harry F. Lardner, Projects Editor Peoples Medical Publishing House Beijing, China Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Zev, When students don't understand what you are trying to convey, do you not explain the concept using different words that will, hopefully, lead the student to grasp the concept? Yes, language is important, but, as a medium to translate truth, it i,s too small, so a certain flexibility is needed. Even in the Chinese, the same concepts were explained using different characters at different times. What is important is the idea, not the words. Douglas ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Friday, May 8, 2009 3:25:27 PM Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology Douglas, Have you ever compared translations of the Dao De Jing? Or the Nei Jing for that matter? There are lousy translations and good ones. Since human beings communicate largely through words and language, I think it is a mistake to ignore that connection. Again, I've taught at the TCM college level for two decades, and I can tell you words and communication are paramount concerns. On May 8, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws > transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance > as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described > differently does not change those laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " > the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language > that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one > concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up > they will miss the view. > > Douglas Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2009 Report Share Posted May 8, 2009 Douglas, I see the concept and the term as having an innate unity. This of course will depend on term, context, text, and many other factors. Xie/drainage is just a very specific example, but there are several others that have led to great misconceptions over time in the profession. . . On May 8, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > Zev, > > When students don't understand what you are trying to convey, do you > not explain the concept using different words that will, hopefully, > lead the student to grasp the concept? Yes, language is important, > but, as a medium to translate truth, it i,s too small, so a certain > flexibility is needed. Even in the Chinese, > the same concepts were explained using different characters at > different times. What is important is the idea, not the words. > > Douglas > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Friday, May 8, 2009 3:25:27 PM > Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Douglas, > Have you ever compared translations of the Dao De Jing? Or the > Nei Jing for that matter? There are lousy translations and good > ones. Since human beings communicate largely through words and > language, I think it is a mistake to ignore that connection. Again, > I've taught at the TCM college level for two decades, and I can tell > you words and communication are paramount concerns. > > > On May 8, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > > > > > Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws > > transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance > > as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described > > differently does not change those laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " > > the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language > > that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one > > concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up > > they will miss the view. > > > > Douglas > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Thanks Douglas for that image. --- On Fri, 5/8/09, Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman Re: Re: Terminology and Etymology Chinese Medicine Friday, May 8, 2009, 3:20 PM Chinese medicine is a description of the laws of nature. These laws transcend language, and every language will have a different nuance as it describes these laws. The fact that these laws are described differently does not change those laws. Lao Tsu stated succinctly " the name that can be named is not the eternal name " . The language that we use is not as important as it is being made out. If one concentrates on the sign that there is a scenic overlook coming up they will miss the view. Douglas ____________ _________ _________ __ > ; TCM <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Thursday, May 7, 2009 11:21:30 PM Re: Terminology and Etymology My dear friend Z'ev, In my very humble and insignifcant opinion, I believe that the approach you are taking is dogmatic. Just because no one of stature chooses to use the term sedate to describe the phenomenon of calming an irritable and replete liver, doesn't mean that its use doesn't have merit. That is specifically why I, as an English speaker, chose to delve into the etymological root of the word, to understand as best as possible what the original intent may have been before modern usage bastardized it. And it seems to be a very appropriate word to describe a process that we undertake as clinicians. I would add, though, that I think that the main problem that we have is with action verbs. It is there that our controversy seems to be playing out. I admire your attempt to " think " Chinese, but as with Hebrew, which I am fluent in, it is a great leap to go from being able to read and even speak a foreign language, while still thinking in English, to get to the point where one actually thinks in the language. I still think in English, and sometimes make silly mistakes in translating literally, when engaging in Hebrew conversations. When I studied in Israel for two years, and lived in an all Hebrew speaking environment, it took me about 3 months before I actually realized that I was thinking in Hebrew. But that was when I was 22. As we age, we become less resilient and its much harder to get back that thought process now in my late 50s, though I speak to patients and family in Hebrew nearly daily. " Ah but I was so much older than, I'm younger than that now " The point I'm trying to make is that sure it's possible, but I would suggest that it's very, very difficult to get yourself to think in a foreign language, and especially, and especially for a Westerner, if that language is Chinese which is unlike any Western language, even more so than Hebrew. And without thinking in Chinese, I don't believe that it's possible to develop a Chinese mindset. That being said, I am not suggesting that it is appropriate to create a new Bio-medically savvy, interpretive Western Chinese medicine. If that evolves in the next 100 years, it may not be a bad thing, necessarily. But as our sages say, " Who is the wise person, the one who learns from all people. " We live in a world of tremendous opportunities to acquire information. There is tremendous connectivity and many are attempting all kinds of eclectic blendings of old and new. I feel that if we patiently are able to develop viable theory behind successful clinical practice than we can grow a wonderful branch onto the beautiful Chinese medical tree. But it has to be connected to the trunk, and it has to be connected to the roots. Otherwise it won't have the integrity or viability to survive. This is the foolishness of the New Age movement, in my opinion. Either it is rootless, or its roots come from paganism. I don't think it will last any longer than its flim flam salesmen who hawk their wares at health consciousness conventions, are around. There is much wisdom in the West as well as the East. Let us use the method that we have acquired wisdom, to continue to due so, but without the arrogance of claiming soemthing which we adapt is our birthright. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. As I said to RoseAnne, I am very concerned with the laxity in which terms are interchanged in English without precision. This is why I feel that understanding etymology is essential in this adaptation process. Unfortunately, we don't agree, otherwise, I don't think that you would have a problem with my usage of sedation as a term which implies calming, and different from anesthetizing. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. I agree with you, but being able to speak and think in English is not enough. Language needs to be studied with precision, and, as I said earlier, when terms connoting actions, meaning verbs are considered, it is essential the the source of the verb be considered in order to be viable. I would suggest that the same process needs to take place in Chinese--that the Radicals need to be considered when understanding the characters. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . I am not in any way questioning the wisdom of the choices that an eminent scholar such as he may have chosen. But I am not interested in translating terms. I am interesting in understanding what idea is being conveyed, and what the terms mean. Looking in a dictionary to figure out arcane or scholarly English terminology does not explain to me what a given action is meant necessarily. That is why etymology is so important, and like I said, both ways, and if a term cannot be translated appropriately in one word, then it should be left with a description rather than a lame one word proximation which helps neither scholar nor clinician. Respectfully, www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com --- On Thu, 5/7/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote: <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> Re: Terminology and Etymology Thursday, May 7, 2009, 12:30 PM Yehuda, Not much time right now, but I must disagree with you. If we are resigned to a 'Western mindset', we will never understand Chinese medicine properly, but will simply end up making Chinese medicine " in our own image " . And don't we have enough biomedicine already without turning tranditional medicines into another form of the same? I believe we need to create a 'virtual Chinese medicine mindset' by studying the classical medical texts and theory, and then translate that out clinically. There are accurate translations of terms and functions, and I don't know one reputable source left that still uses 'sedate' for the acupuncture treatment method of xie/drainage. With sedation there is no movement or circulation, and acupuncture/ moxa always circulates the qi. Having said that, there is a lot in Chinese medicine that is universally understandable by both layperson and practitioner, i.e. hot, cold, supplement, drain, seasons, phases, etc. We just need to understand it in the original context before adapting it to conditions here in the West. The difficulty arises because of poor translation efforts at the beginning of the transmission of Chinese medicine to the West. It shows how easily poor translation can lead to long-term misunderstandings of root principles in our medicine. We are still using some of these terms and concepts today! This difficulty remains with many mainland Chinese translators, who do not adequately understand the target language and culture (English or other Western languages), and non-professional Western translators. Ideal is a team of native Chinese speakers who practice Chinese medicine who know English well with native English-speakers who know medical Chinese well. Lately, many texts have used this team approach to translation. Nigel Wiseman is a professional linguist, fluent in several languages. While other term choices may be valid for technical Chinese terms, I trust his judgment when it comes to English term choices. He has done the hard work and research, and if one is going to challenge his term choices, they need to have the chops to do so. . On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > But returning to our original topic, let me posit another idea: > The medicine we practice in the English speaking Western world is > not the same as is practiced in the East, for the same reason: The > mindset that we bring to our practices is one that was formed by our > upbringing, education and environment. We think like Westerners, > whether we like it or not. Therefore, I would contend, that unless > we speak and think in Chinese when we see patients, we are fitting a > round peg into a square hole, by attempting to translate terms > literally, without considering the etymology of the English. Look > at Xie, Qing and Wen for example: When we look at the formula " Xie > Bai San, " it is translated as " Drain the White Powder. " Let's look > for a minute at the etymology of drain. Drain comes from the Middle > English term, " dreinen " which means to filter as in the quote by Sir > Francis Bacon, " Salt water, drained through twenty vessels of earth, > hath > become fresh. " This seems to fit nicely with the idea of gently > filtering the heat from the lungs which makes this formula so > effective for small children as opposed to " Qing " as in the formula > " Qing Fei Yin " which is translated as " Clear the Lungs Drink. " > Clear comes from the Old French " cler " which can mean free of > encumbrance. With this formula, phlegm is transformed and cleared > out, perhaps a little more aggressively. I can't comment on the tem > " Wen " because I am not familiar with its usage in Chinese, though I > would assume that it's implication is anesthesia. But if that's the > case, that would be very different than sedate. Anesthetize comes > from the Greek anaisthet which means without feeling. > > Let me summarize: 1. It would appear that Classic Chinese medicine > was more concerned with clinical signs rather than subjective > symptoms, in determining the terminological choices. 2. It is very > difficult, if not next to impossible for someone who is not equally > fluent in Chinese and English to clearly develop the mindset of the > ancient Chinese physician. It is difficult enough for the modern > Chinese physician/scholar. I would suggest as an ignorant outsider, > that this would be because the terminology is integrated and so > completely different from Western languages. 3. I would suggest > that as Westerners we need to take a two step process in proximating > what Chinese doctors meant in using Medical terminology: First, > Analyze carefully the context of the terms used in their original > text, and second, determine the etymological root of translated terms. > > Based upon the above three points, I come to a different conclusion > then heretofore: that the origin of the term sedate in English has > a very different connotation than the connotation of the term > anesthetize, and based upon the above discussion and research I > find it less objectionable to use it in the context that I chose, to > quiet the liver, which is very different than calming the liver. > > Thank you for your eminent challenge. Even if we agree to disagree > may our discussions have always have the same collegiality as Bais > Hillel and Bais Shammai: for the sake and pursuit of knowledge and > truth. > > Respectfully, > > > Yehuda Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Yes... this is an instance.. Chai hu, where language is clearly important. Subhuti Dharmananda said that Chai hu can " dredge " the liver, in an article about coffee. " Dredge " , " drain " , " clear " , " sedate " , " move " ... which one of these fits the bill? Btw... when I think of " xie " , I think of diarrhea, which is both draining and sedating sometimes K On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > > Hi Yehuda and All: > > --Yehuda- > > > sedatus which means to compose, moderate, or quiet. If before I > needle there is intercostal tenderness, burping and irritability, and > after I needle the patient is happy and calm, can I not say that they > are sedate (using the noun form)? > --- > > The root of sedate as you describe it would then fit comfortably with > actions such harmonization, regulation and balancing. Sedate, with a root as > you describe it, does not fit with drain. > > Chai Hu is an herb which could, according to your definition, be described > as sedating. Huang Qin or Long Dan Cao, on the other hand, cannot be > described in this manner (since they drain), although they are likely to > have a *secondary* effect of " sedation " based on their dosage, combination > and length of use. > > Thoughts? > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org > > ________________________________ > <%40>> > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, 8 May, 2009 2:48:21 > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Again, Daniel, I refer back to the etymological root of sedate, the Latin > term: Remember, as I mentioned earlier in this discussion, sedation does not > mean numbing. That is anesthesia. > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > wrote: > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ > > Re: Terminology and Etymology > > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 9:23 PM > > Obviously this is a debate that will go on forever. To put my two cents in > - on the one hand I do agree in instances that are particularly egregious > that correct terminology is important - and I do think 'sedation' is one of > those instances - because quite simply, no matter how you look at it, I > don't see how we can think we sedate anything with acupuncture - we do drain > things and get things moving where they are stuck. On the other hand, the > dogmatism of the etymological purists can go too far - I just don't see how > 'torpid intake' is an improvement over 'lack of appetite' or 'poor appetite' > - I never knew the word 'torpid', still don't know it, I can't relate to it, > my patients certainly can't relate to it and referring to eating as 'intake' > sounds bizarre too. > Regards > Daniel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Alon, that's a whole other story. When Arnaud talks about formulas, he's very specific about the actions, not through the terminology, but through the patho-mechanisms and the way that the herbs interact with each other through the five flavors, not through TCM functions. I'm definitely not a legalist, but at the same time, I see the brilliance of knowing something in a detailed way. It's like when you talk about manual therapy. It's very specific. There may not be a " right " way in doing something, but there is definitely a " wrong " way. Chuang Tzu talks about the meat-cutter who never dulls his blade. I hope that we can be skillful, even if we do butcher the language. K On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: > > > Koko > the whole issue is not simple. Just look at Arnaud teachings. I don't think > i have ever seen anyone teaching in English that can explain many of the > most difficult ideas in CM as clearly as he does. He definitely does not > believe in a fixed set of word choices in any way shape or form, and does > not like the methodology of W terminology. That said, i think he uses drain > when talking about this in acup. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Just curious as to what Dr. Tran meant by that quote when he has stated during seminar that the current body of knowledge is wrong about the directions of yin and yang. Just an observation. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine skip8080 Fri, 8 May 2009 22:12:53 +0000 Re: Terminology and Etymology Heres a potent quote I keep posted by my desk: " If you want to develop acupuncture, if you want to make it grow and spread, you have to be very strict in the way that you learn things, rigorous or strict in the way that we learn the words. Because if we employ words which are not accurate, we are not going to learn anything. Because in Chinese medicine, every single word has a deep meaning, and if we don't use them correctly, we may end up making errors. And if there are errors in comprehension we cannot help our patients, we cannot get results. And a medical science where there are no results is a science that has no future. That is why we are very strict about the terminology. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Anyway, the Chinese character for xie is made up of 2 radicals: one half of the Character is the radical for " water " - and the second part indicates the pronunciation. Another powerful quote by Dr. Tran, slightly off topic: " There are three things that I am sure about that I would like to explain to you in a very simple way: First of all, the further I get into my studies of acupuncture the more I realize how little I know, that I know nothing; Two: among my patients there are lots of failures, I fail to cure a lot of people. But there is one thing I am sure about: that if I don't succeed in curing my patients, it is not the fault of acupuncture: I haven't reached the height of my prowess, I haven't reached the peak of my possibilities and achievements. There is acupuncture and there are acupuncturists. Thirdly, I notice that often when I fail to cure someone, it's because I haven't properly grasped the technique; that is, I use a technique, often, that I haven't really understood. That's why I believe, that when you puncture a point in acupuncture, you have to understand the meaning of that action, you have to understand the meaning of what we do. We have to understand the deeper meaning of acupuncture. Because if you puncture a point, and you don't understand why you're puncturing it, if you're just doing it because the Chinese say you that have to do it, or other people say you have to do it, if it's just a 'reflex' point, without any proper interpretation or real understanding, according to my experience, the results are not good. " -- Dr. Tran Viet Dzung Harry F. Lardner, Projects Editor Peoples Medical Publishing House Beijing, China _______________ Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_W\ hatsNew1_052009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2009 Report Share Posted May 9, 2009 Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko wrote: > Chuang Tzu talks about the meat-cutter who never dulls his blade. > I hope that we can be skillful, even if we do butcher the language. > > K What effects will the World Health Organization standardization of TCM nomenclature have on successive students of TCM and acupuncture? In Australia already, WHO standard is that which is taught and examined in nationally accredited degrees, and to be published in our major peer-reviewed journal, one must speak WHO lingo. Margi http://margihealing.wordpress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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