Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon, thank you for your response.

 

I agree with you that viewing both sides of an argument is paramount. This is an

exercise I try to involve myself with whenever I can; though unfortunately most

people have trouble researching even 1 side of the argument efficiently (on any

topic).

 

In all of my research, I've continually found the same answer: vaccines are not

effective, and they can be dangerous as well. Of course I am always willing to

look at the information that disagrees with my conclusions, but in the end, I've

never found strong enough evidence to make me even doubt my stance on this

issue.

 

Doctors vaccinate simply because it is the dogma that is preached to them. Some

continue this practice because they believe in it, and others continue it

because it brings them a guaranteed revolving door of income (see Dr. Sherry

Tenpenny's comments). With every study I've seen on the flu vaccine, the results

have said that they are literally worthless. Despite this, the flu vaccine is

hyped every year and I do not recall hearing of many doctors that inform their

patients that they do not need this.

 

A similar argument can be drawn with - /at least/ certain - pharmaceuticals.

Depression medications are still prescribed even though studies show they work

only as good as a placebo. Cholesterol lowering drugs are still prescribed even

though they continually show to not lower cholesterol.

 

Again, correlation does not imply causation. Just because a doctor is well

meaning and has taken the Hippocratic oath does not in any way reduce their

likelihood of prescribing methods that are ineffective. Let's not forget as well

that these same doctors, most get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies

(whether they feel they're being bribed or not) and at least 40% admit to

prescribing a drug that their patient wants (that they saw advertised on TV)

just to shut them up.

 

Next of course is the issue of just not knowing any better, which I think

likewise plagues Allopathy. Faked and/or dishonest studies occur. Whether the

study was poorly designed, or was fabricated from the get-go by some big

industry, this can - and I'm sure has - affected the views of even the most well

meaning of doctors.

 

If doctors using less than proven techniques is a conspiracy theory, then so too

would be the claimed health defects of sodium-fluoridated water even though most

dentists strongly push for it. Let's not forget the USDA Food Guide Pyramid

which most doctors promote and dietitians also promote as a sound method of

nutrition despite the entire thing being a corporate fabrication (see Marion

Nestle's Food Politics. Nestle was one of the originals that worked on it).

There can be any number of reasons why such professionals support these things:

money, ignorance, gullibility, lack of appropriate research, etc. but it can't

be denied that such things are all around us and still occur despite the best of

intentions from most.

 

I know I drew some parallels to things unrelated to the subject at hand, but

hopefully you understand my main point just the same.

 

Thanks,

- Josh Barton, C.M.T., H.H.C.

[Guest guest]

Hugo

I have the same reaction as you do to any forced medical or any other

action. Deciding what is best for the greater good is slippery and

can become dangerous.

 

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" In all of my research, I've continually found the same answer.

A similar argument can be drawn with - /at least/ certain -

pharmaceuticals. Depression medications are still prescribed even

though studies show they work only as good as a placebo. Cholesterol

lowering drugs are still prescribed even though they continually show

to not lower cholesterol. "

 

Josh these statement show that you like to ignore evidence and choose

only those that support your views. The VAST majority of studies on

antidepressants show that they do work... as are studies on

cholesterol drugs. You may argue that lowering cholesterol is not

smart or that death rates dont change but not lowering cholesterol

that is ignorant.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This vaccination thread is similar to the translation thread in that:

no body wants to be forced into following a vaccination schedule or

felt like they are stupid for using a translated term.

 

The one thing that is sure... we should look at as many sides as possible

and be fair in our assessments.

 

K

 

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 8:25 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

>

>

> Hugo

> I have the same reaction as you do to any forced medical or any other

> action. Deciding what is best for the greater good is slippery and

> can become dangerous.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my grandfather. It was an

elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals got hold of him for a

minor thing.

 I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin, marrow and so

on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering these creatures endure

saddens me. But still use animal herbal products, including snake gall bladders.

 I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different glands, and

tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here. Always gratefully

with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when they see a critter downed,

the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to honor.

 

 

--- On Mon, 5/11/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

Chinese Medicine

Monday, May 11, 2009, 11:57 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems as though there is a consensus in Chinese medicine that

 

the Right Qi (Zheng4 Qi4) needs to be strong in order to fend off (Xie2

 

Qi4).

 

If the Zheng4 Qi4 is weak from the onset, this may contribute to chronic

 

and wide-ranging illness throughout the rest of life.

 

 

 

I'm lucky that my mom ate bone-stew throughout her pregnancy.

 

It's still one of my favorite foods. It's called " Gom tang " in Korean

 

(Ox-tail stew)

 

and really nourishes your Jing1, which is a major component of Zheng4 Qi4.

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:25 AM, >wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Yuliya,

 

>

 

> What's the rush? Let your baby grow and flourish and give her immune

 

> system the opportunity to mature. When she's close to five years old, then

 

> consider your options carefully. Don't get stressed or think too much--it

 

> damages the Spleen. Strong mom's need strong Spleens! So...

 

>

 

> Be strong (and lay back!)

 

>

 

>

 

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

 

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Yuliya Goldberg <ygold77 <ygold77%40.

com>>

 

> wrote:

 

>

 

> Yuliya Goldberg <ygold77 <ygold77%40. com>>

 

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

> <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> Sunday, May 10, 2009, 12:43 PM

 

>

 

> This discussion is very important for me because my baby is 1 year old and

 

> I think about it every day. I had all my vaccines done but my husband

 

> didn't have any and when he received his first one the tetanus shot then he

 

> developed very severe allergies until age 18 that he almost died from. So we

 

> decided not to give any vaccines to our daughter; we might decide to give

 

> her a polio one later or may be not. I believe that many diseases of modern

 

> age have to do with vaccine. I don't know if that is true but I don't deny

 

> such possibility.

 

> It is a very complex topic.

 

> Yuliya Jirnov L.Ac.

 

> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

 

>

 

> Hugo Ramiro <subincor >

 

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

>

 

> Sunday, May 10, 2009, 1:20 PM

 

>

 

> Hi Alon:

 

> While I generally agree with most of your points, and definitely agree with

 

> importance of becoming very well-informed on both sides of the issue and

 

> avoiding partisan relationships, I find the statement below to be an

 

> oversimplification:

 

>

 

> --Alon-

 

> When one thinks thousands of well meaning

 

> healthcare professionals all over the world are somehow willing to

 

> risk the entire world population to intervention that have NO benefit

 

> at all i do think that is a bit of a conspiracy theory type of thinking.

 

> ---

 

>

 

> We know that many well-meaning individuals have rejected

 

> because of its obvious uselessness for decades, and many continue to do so.

 

> There are many well-meaning professionals who would describe you as a nut

 

> because you actually consider that Xuan Bi Tang could actually affect joint

 

> inflammation in any way - or even worse, that it could be preferable to

 

> conventional treatments.

 

>

 

> It is a strawman argument to lump together huge groups of people when a

 

> conspiracy doesn't require that - it merely requires ignorance and

 

> inactivity by enough of the population and effective procedural

 

> smokescreens.

 

>

 

> I personally do not feel comfortable with partisan and entrenched

 

> viewpoints, and yet I wonder how it is that the 1997 NIH concensus statement

 

> on acupuncture transformed from a position of cautious support to merely an

 

> *historical document*.

 

> (http://consensus. nih.gov/1997/ 1997Acupuncture1 07html.htm) I did not

 

> see any emphasis of that nature placed on any other NIH document, whether it

 

> was later superceded by new information or not. My understanding is that

 

> there were severe political fights as a result of the 1997 NIH statement.

 

> Check out the scientific statement " [...] simply wrong " in the nice

 

> scientific red scare lettering. All right all right, I get it you guys, we

 

> really have to be careful with acupuncture! Danger!

 

>

 

> The fact of the matter is that human beings of all stripes and in all

 

> places have struggled with bias (or as Buddhism would describe it, ignorance

 

> and misunderstanding) for all time. It is nothing new, and as much as peole

 

> proclaim that science fixes bias, it does not. It merely helps with certain

 

> types, and is largely subjected to bias anyway. Pubmed searches reveal very

 

> little research into bias. It is interesting to note that one has to delve

 

> into different fields (social science, bioethics and psychology) in order to

 

> access any significant body of research on the topic, and that these fields

 

> are largely ignored by medicine - even bioethics is often looked upon, in

 

> medicine, as an ugly cousin that one has to tolerate:

 

>

 

> " Potentially, [bioethics] bodies could be threatening to scientific

 

> institutions asked to defend their priorities and working practices on

 

> political, moral and ethical grounds. However, as Susan E. Kelly has examine

 

> int he case of the U.S. Human embryo research panel, this represents an area

 

> where the " co-constituyive nature of science ethics and publics is both

 

> veiled and engaged " (Kelly 2003). In particular, Kelly argues that bioethics

 

> bodies have been used as a means of appearing responsive to public concerns

 

> while protecting the autonomy of science. Specific ideas of " concensus

 

> building " have served to restrict the form and content of public challenges

 

> to scientific expertise. In that way, bioethics panels appear to serve as

 

> effective " border guards " protecting scientific institutions from wider

 

> scrutiny while presenting an apparently open posture int he face of external

 

> demands. "

 

>

 

> (Handbook of Science and Technologies Studies, 2008)

 

>

 

> To say that there are no worldwide, iron-clad conspiracies carried out by

 

> entire professions is correct. To say that there are no conspiracies is

 

> incorrect. They do occur, although they are certainly not as black and white

 

> as the entrenched groups make it seem. Rachel Macklin (Double Standards in

 

> Research in Developing Countries, 2004) has documented in excruciating

 

> detail the problems regarding drug company funding, experiments on poor

 

> populations that rich populations would never tolerate, and the resultant

 

> benefit for rich populations and immense damage to poor populations.

 

>

 

> I agree that there is no evil side and innocent side, but the situation is

 

> very complicated, and it is not accurate to say that there are no

 

> conspiracies.

 

>

 

> Money, by itself, easily creates bias, and if someone is going to lose

 

> money, this is all that is needed to start the breaches in ethics. I have

 

> personal experience of this occurring, as has anyone who worked for any

 

> period of time in a business. It, apparently, is hard, difficult work to

 

> remain upstanding and uncorrupted.

 

>

 

> Conspiracy

 

>

 

> 1. the act of conspiring.

 

> 2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in

 

> secret by two or more persons; plot.

 

> 3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He

 

> joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.

 

> 4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or

 

> other wrongful act.

 

> 5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

 

>

 

> The word conspiracy exists for a reason, and to claim that the medical

 

> profession is immune to conspiracies requries more evidential support than

 

> merely disparaging people who clearly are holding an extreme position.

 

>

 

> Thanks,

 

> Hugo

 

>

 

> ____________ _________ _________ __

 

> Hugo Ramiro

 

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

 

> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Fran,

 

I'm a firm believer in animal organs and marrow.

My mom has strong teeth... She can chew into chicken bones and eat all the

marrow.

I'm not that strong... de-evolution.

 

Your grandfather had a lot of jing. I never heard of duck-blood soup,

but it sounds delicious. I wrote a poem once called...

 

 

Vegetarians are cannibals

 

Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

We eat them

What's the difference?

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my grandfather. It

> was an elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals got hold of

> him for a minor thing.

> I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin, marrow

> and so on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering these

> creatures endure saddens me. But still use animal herbal products, including

> snake gall bladders.

> I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different glands,

> and tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here. Always

> gratefully with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when they see a

> critter downed, the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to honor.

>

>

> -

> .

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Aw Johnny. You' re a smart  happy mistrel here. I also chew,  break into ribs

and their gristle heads. choose the most active eel from the tank. I was vegan

for17 years, and my daughter is inspiring me toward that direction again. But I

still swallow a snake gall bladder, her and there, to releieve phlegm,

dernatological an stomach diseases of hot property,

liver and eyes of the fire. And so on

  ,  ,

--- On Sat, 5/16/09, <johnkokko wrote:

 

<johnkokko

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, May 16, 2009, 10:51 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fran,

 

 

 

I'm a firm believer in animal organs and marrow.

 

My mom has strong teeth... She can chew into chicken bones and eat all the

 

marrow.

 

I'm not that strong... de-evolution.

 

 

 

Your grandfather had a lot of jing. I never heard of duck-blood soup,

 

but it sounds delicious. I wrote a poem once called...

 

 

 

Vegetarians are cannibals

 

 

 

Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

 

We eat them

 

What's the difference?

 

 

 

K

 

 

 

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ > wrote:

 

 

 

>

 

>

 

> Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my grandfather. It

 

> was an elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals got hold of

 

> him for a minor thing.

 

> I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin, marrow

 

> and so on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering these

 

> creatures endure saddens me. But still use animal herbal products, including

 

> snake gall bladders.

 

> I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different glands,

 

> and tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here. Always

 

> gratefully with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when they see a

 

> critter downed, the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to honor.

 

>

 

>

 

> -

 

> .

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

www.turtleclinic. com

 

 

 

TCM Review director

 

CA State Board Prep Courses

 

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The difference is that nature is hierarchical. Everything isn't 'the

same'. Eating a vegetable is not the same as eating yourself.

 

 

On May 16, 2009, at 7:51 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Fran,

>

> I'm a firm believer in animal organs and marrow.

> My mom has strong teeth... She can chew into chicken bones and eat

> all the

> marrow.

> I'm not that strong... de-evolution.

>

> Your grandfather had a lot of jing. I never heard of duck-blood soup,

> but it sounds delicious. I wrote a poem once called...

>

> Vegetarians are cannibals

>

> Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

> We eat them

> What's the difference?

>

> K

>

> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my

> grandfather. It

> > was an elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals

> got hold of

> > him for a minor thing.

> > I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin,

> marrow

> > and so on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering

> these

> > creatures endure saddens me. But still use animal herbal products,

> including

> > snake gall bladders.

> > I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different

> glands,

> > and tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here.

> Always

> > gratefully with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when

> they see a

> > critter downed, the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to

> honor.

> >

> >

> > -

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Turtle Island Integrative Health

>

>

> TCM Review director

> CA State Board Prep Courses

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Vegetarians are cannibals

 

Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

We eat them

What's the difference? "

 

 

 

The difference is that a pig screams from fear and pain when you want to eat

it.

 

Why grow and kill so many animals when you can do fine without? It's good

for our body and soul, and the planet.

 

 

 

Day of the lentil burghers: Ghent goes veggie to lose weight and save planet

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/13/ghent-belgium-vegetarian-d

ay

 

 

 

Sorry to the moderator for this non-tcm post.

 

To bring it on topic: here's a link to a book in Chinese on vegetarianism

within Chinese medicine (yes, it exists!):

 

 

 

http://shop.kongfz.com/book/113/12833298.html

 

 

 

and here's a link to an interesting blog discussion by Eric Grey:

 

 

 

http://deepesthealth.com/2007/7-keys-to-a-balanced-vegan-diet-in-line-with-c

hinese-medicine-philosophy/

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

zondag 17 mei 2009 4:52

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fran,

 

I'm a firm believer in animal organs and marrow.

My mom has strong teeth... She can chew into chicken bones and eat all the

marrow.

I'm not that strong... de-evolution.

 

Your grandfather had a lot of jing. I never heard of duck-blood soup,

but it sounds delicious. I wrote a poem once called...

 

Vegetarians are cannibals

 

Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

We eat them

What's the difference?

 

K

 

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@

<ykcul_ritsym%40> > wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my grandfather. It

> was an elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals got hold

of

> him for a minor thing.

> I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin, marrow

> and so on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering these

> creatures endure saddens me. But still use animal herbal products,

including

> snake gall bladders.

> I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different glands,

> and tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here. Always

> gratefully with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when they see a

> critter downed, the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to honor.

>

>

> -

> .

>

>

>

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Tom,

 

I wrote that small poem when I was a vegetarian and is an homage to:

" .. if you see the buddha on the road.. axe him " .

Although I think we should take our practice, art and the state of the world

very very seriously, I don't think we should take ourselves that seriously.

 

I do think there is a hierarchy on one level, but then again,

what is above is what is below, because it is a cycle

where every part is renewed by each other

where every part is interdependent on everything else

where there is no ultimate separation

 

Pigs do scream when their hun and po separate

So do plants when their stems are separated from their roots

 

Then, we come to the idea of which one is the lesser of the two evils.

Pigs are more like us - hairy mammals,

while plants don't have limbic systems

and so they may scream,

but they don't hold that grudge against us.

 

or we can look at it from an environmental point of view.

In that case, we can feed at least seven times more vegetarians on the same

plot of land

as we can one carnivore.

Vegetables are a lot easier to clean up both inside and outside of our

bodies

and so that uses a lot less resources than feeding a 100 lb pig for a couple

years

just to have a holiday meal for a week.

 

The world definitely needs more vegetables, more bio-diversity and more

vegetarians.

At the same time, I like eating some marinated meat and raw fish too.

 

On the other side of the equation, there is the school of Weston Price and

the Ancestor Diet.

If we ate more raw milk from a cow or sheep or goat that gives it freely,

instead of denatured milk

we might be able to tonify some post-heaven jing and enjoy a little aged

cheese here and there.

 

If we ate more of those organ meats that are often thrown away,

we would be giving respect to the fallen animal and receive some strong yang

Qi,

which is hard to get by just eating light-bearing vegetables.

Isn't chopped liver great between two pieces of rye?

 

The Essenes, the purist of the pure, used to eat lamb once a year as a

sacrifice

and as a way to get through the winter

Jesus, the great Jewish teacher, ate fish and distributed it freely

Tibetan monks eat sha (beef) momos and yak butter tea

 

I have nothing against vegetables, just the pride in being a vegetarian.

They say there are two types of abysses...

in the hot one, you eat meat and get angry

in the cold one, you eat vegetables and become proud.

 

Happy Sunday,

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Tom Verhaeghe <

tom.verhaeghe wrote:

 

>

>

> " Vegetarians are cannibals

>

> Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

> We eat them

> What's the difference? "

>

> The difference is that a pig screams from fear and pain when you want to

> eat

> it.

>

> Why grow and kill so many animals when you can do fine without? It's good

> for our body and soul, and the planet.

>

> Day of the lentil burghers: Ghent goes veggie to lose weight and save

> planet

>

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/13/ghent-belgium-vegetarian-d

> ay

>

> Sorry to the moderator for this non-tcm post.

>

> To bring it on topic: here's a link to a book in Chinese on vegetarianism

> within Chinese medicine (yes, it exists!):

>

> http://shop.kongfz.com/book/113/12833298.html

>

> and here's a link to an interesting blog discussion by Eric Grey:

>

>

> http://deepesthealth.com/2007/7-keys-to-a-balanced-vegan-diet-in-line-with-c

> hinese-medicine-philosophy/

>

> Tom Verhaeghe

>

> Stationsplein 59

>

> 8770 Ingelmunster

>

> www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

>

> _____

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of john

> kokko

> zondag 17 mei 2009 4:52

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> Fran,

>

> I'm a firm believer in animal organs and marrow.

> My mom has strong teeth... She can chew into chicken bones and eat all the

> marrow.

> I'm not that strong... de-evolution.

>

> Your grandfather had a lot of jing. I never heard of duck-blood soup,

> but it sounds delicious. I wrote a poem once called...

>

> Vegetarians are cannibals

>

> Vegetables eat light, water and dirt

> We eat them

> What's the difference?

>

> K

>

> On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 10:52 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@

> <ykcul_ritsym%40 <ykcul_ritsym%2540>> >

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi John, my mom made duck blood soup, decades ago for my grandfather. It

> > was an elaborate dish. He lived to a hundred. Then the hospitals got hold

> of

> > him for a minor thing.

> > I was vegetarian for 17years, and then wanted liver, fats, skin, marrow

> > and so on. I am tending to less meat, because the mass suffering these

> > creatures endure saddens me. But still use animal herbal products,

> including

> > snake gall bladders.

> > I was taught how to identify parathyroid, thyroid and different glands,

> > and tissue as an animal is slaughtered, In the farms near here. Always

> > gratefully with prayer. Most farm animals are vegetarian, when they see a

> > critter downed, the look on their face is bewilderment. I try to honor.

> >

> >

> > -

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Turtle Island Integrative Health

>

>

> TCM Review director

> CA State Board Prep Courses

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

 

 

 

I respect your opinion, and I normally do not react to people advocating

eating organ meat but.maybe because this news item about Ghent becoming

vegetarian one day a week was quite a big story around here.

 

 

 

I do suffer from a guilty conscience. You see, there is absolutely no way

that I can convince my mind to accept that depriving animals of their lives

can be morally justified, whilst I know that I can do fine without. Perhaps

I do take myself too serious, you may be right about that. But at least I do

not have to think or worry about the animal that gave up the rest of his

life span for my sake. As you can guess I am an ethical vegetarian. There

are some karmic thoughts involved as well. John, you do know that Daoism,

which you seem to refer to below, also has a vegetarian tradition?

 

 

 

I hope I haven't bored you all to death, so let's get back to discussing

Chinese medicine :-)

 

 

 

Yours truly,

 

 

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

zondag 17 mei 2009 15:48

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z'ev, Tom,

 

I wrote that small poem when I was a vegetarian and is an homage to:

" .. if you see the buddha on the road.. axe him " .

Although I think we should take our practice, art and the state of the world

very very seriously, I don't think we should take ourselves that seriously.

 

I do think there is a hierarchy on one level, but then again,

what is above is what is below, because it is a cycle

where every part is renewed by each other

where every part is interdependent on everything else

where there is no ultimate separation

 

Pigs do scream when their hun and po separate

So do plants when their stems are separated from their roots

 

Then, we come to the idea of which one is the lesser of the two evils.

Pigs are more like us - hairy mammals,

while plants don't have limbic systems

and so they may scream,

but they don't hold that grudge against us.

 

or we can look at it from an environmental point of view.

In that case, we can feed at least seven times more vegetarians on the same

plot of land

as we can one carnivore.

Vegetables are a lot easier to clean up both inside and outside of our

bodies

and so that uses a lot less resources than feeding a 100 lb pig for a couple

years

just to have a holiday meal for a week.

 

The world definitely needs more vegetables, more bio-diversity and more

vegetarians.

At the same time, I like eating some marinated meat and raw fish too.

 

On the other side of the equation, there is the school of Weston Price and

the Ancestor Diet.

If we ate more raw milk from a cow or sheep or goat that gives it freely,

instead of denatured milk

we might be able to tonify some post-heaven jing and enjoy a little aged

cheese here and there.

 

If we ate more of those organ meats that are often thrown away,

we would be giving respect to the fallen animal and receive some strong yang

Qi,

which is hard to get by just eating light-bearing vegetables.

Isn't chopped liver great between two pieces of rye?

 

The Essenes, the purist of the pure, used to eat lamb once a year as a

sacrifice

and as a way to get through the winter

Jesus, the great Jewish teacher, ate fish and distributed it freely

Tibetan monks eat sha (beef) momos and yak butter tea

 

I have nothing against vegetables, just the pride in being a vegetarian.

They say there are two types of abysses...

in the hot one, you eat meat and get angry

in the cold one, you eat vegetables and become proud.

 

Happy Sunday,

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John and Tom:

Buddhism, Taoism and CM all have pure vegetarian traditions, and many

traditional Chinese diets, due to the expense (of raising) or unavailability of

meat were de facto vegetarian diets. Taiwan has a lot of traditions regarding

vegetarianism.

CM, also beign being pragmatic, says very clearly that if a person wants to

live the purest life, no meat, for the longest life, then some fish once every

long while is the way to go. But for everyone else who can't handle living well,

you have to eat meat, to keep the boat afloat, so to speak.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 17 May, 2009 14:53:39

RE: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

Dear John,

 

I respect your opinion, and I normally do not react to people advocating

eating organ meat but.maybe because this news item about Ghent becoming

vegetarian one day a week was quite a big story around here.

 

I do suffer from a guilty conscience. You see, there is absolutely no way

that I can convince my mind to accept that depriving animals of their lives

can be morally justified, whilst I know that I can do fine without. Perhaps

I do take myself too serious, you may be right about that. But at least I do

not have to think or worry about the animal that gave up the rest of his

life span for my sake. As you can guess I am an ethical vegetarian. There

are some karmic thoughts involved as well. John, you do know that Daoism,

which you seem to refer to below, also has a vegetarian tradition?

 

I hope I haven't bored you all to death, so let's get back to discussing

Chinese medicine :-)

 

Yours truly,

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese- geneeskunde. be

 

_____

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of john

kokko

zondag 17 mei 2009 15:48

 

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Z'ev, Tom,

 

I wrote that small poem when I was a vegetarian and is an homage to:

" .. if you see the buddha on the road.. axe him " .

Although I think we should take our practice, art and the state of the world

very very seriously, I don't think we should take ourselves that seriously.

 

I do think there is a hierarchy on one level, but then again,

what is above is what is below, because it is a cycle

where every part is renewed by each other

where every part is interdependent on everything else

where there is no ultimate separation

 

Pigs do scream when their hun and po separate

So do plants when their stems are separated from their roots

 

Then, we come to the idea of which one is the lesser of the two evils.

Pigs are more like us - hairy mammals,

while plants don't have limbic systems

and so they may scream,

but they don't hold that grudge against us.

 

or we can look at it from an environmental point of view.

In that case, we can feed at least seven times more vegetarians on the same

plot of land

as we can one carnivore.

Vegetables are a lot easier to clean up both inside and outside of our

bodies

and so that uses a lot less resources than feeding a 100 lb pig for a couple

years

just to have a holiday meal for a week.

 

The world definitely needs more vegetables, more bio-diversity and more

vegetarians.

At the same time, I like eating some marinated meat and raw fish too.

 

On the other side of the equation, there is the school of Weston Price and

the Ancestor Diet.

If we ate more raw milk from a cow or sheep or goat that gives it freely,

instead of denatured milk

we might be able to tonify some post-heaven jing and enjoy a little aged

cheese here and there.

 

If we ate more of those organ meats that are often thrown away,

we would be giving respect to the fallen animal and receive some strong yang

Qi,

which is hard to get by just eating light-bearing vegetables.

Isn't chopped liver great between two pieces of rye?

 

The Essenes, the purist of the pure, used to eat lamb once a year as a

sacrifice

and as a way to get through the winter

Jesus, the great Jewish teacher, ate fish and distributed it freely

Tibetan monks eat sha (beef) momos and yak butter tea

 

I have nothing against vegetables, just the pride in being a vegetarian.

They say there are two types of abysses...

in the hot one, you eat meat and get angry

in the cold one, you eat vegetables and become proud.

 

Happy Sunday,

 

K