Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I read this article:

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/An%20Assessment%20of%20the%20Impact%20of%2\

0Thimerosal%20on%20Childhood%20Neurodevelopmental%20Disorders.pdf

 

It made me think of the compounded methylmercury intravenously shot into

babies when

thiomersal was still in vaccines... but for the most part that wouldn't be

a large consideration today,

since...

 

" In the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries,

thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccination

schedules <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule>.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-drugsaf-0>In the U.S.,

the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are

some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older

than two years.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-4>Several vaccines

that are not routinely recommended for young children do

contain thiomersal, including DT

(diphtheria<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria>and

tetanus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus>), Td (tetanus and

diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace of

thiomersal from steps in manufacture. "

 

Just because thiomersal is not in the vaccines, doesn't mean that people

should be less cautious.

That was the biggest argument from our first pediatrician.... " there were

some complications before with mercury and vaccines and whole cell pertussis

etc... but those have been remedied (sic).. "

 

1. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-0> *

b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-1> Bigham

M, Copes R (2005). " Thiomersal in vaccines: balancing the risk of adverse

effects with the risk of vaccine-preventable disease " . *Drug Saf*

*28*(2): 89–101.

doi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>:

10.2165/00002018-200528020-00001<http://dx.doi.org/10.2165%2F00002018-200528020-\

00001>.

PMID 15691220 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15691220>.

2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-1>* " Thimerosal

in Vaccines: Frequently Asked

Questions " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm>.

Food and Drug

Administration<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration_%28Unit\

ed_States%29>.

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm. Retrieved on 2008-03-09.

3. ^ *a*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-0>

*b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-1>

*c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-2>

*d* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-3>

" Thimerosal

in vaccines " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm>. Center for

Biologics Evaluation and Research, U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

2008

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008>-06-03<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_3>.

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-07-25.

4. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-0>

*b*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-1>

*c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-2>

*d*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-3>

*e* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-4>

*f*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-5>

*g* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-6> Baker JP

(2008). " Mercury, vaccines, and autism: one controversy, three histories " .

*Am J Public Health* *98* (2): 244–53.

doi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>

:10.2105/AJPH.2007.113159 <http://dx.doi.org/10.2105%2FAJPH.2007.113159>.

PMID 18172138 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172138>.

5. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-4>* Coordinating

Center for Infectious Diseases (2007-10-26). " Thimerosal in seasonal

influenza vaccine " <http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm>. Centers

for Disease Control and Prevention.

http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-04-02.

 

K

 

 

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:14 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

 

>

>

>

> I would like to suggest some links for info about several vaccines and/or

> their constituents that have been studied.

>

> http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/mark-geier-research.htm

>

> http://fr.truveo.com/Dr-Mark-Geier-David-Geier-discuss-mercury/id/538123512

>

> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/encephalopathies.pdf

>

> I hope these are helpful. BTW, I attended a seminar by Dr. Geier and his

> son that really made sense about the autism issue. They found a connection

> with testosterone and mercury. Go figure.

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:57:20 -0700

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

>

> Alon,

>

> The CDC has a few vaccination schedules up... you can count the number of

>

> vaccination shots

>

> and this isn't even all of them... there's also smallpox, anthrax, Lyme

>

> Disease, typhoid, rabies,

>

> Japanese encephalitis, shingles and yellow fever just in case you want to

>

> collect them all.

>

> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/vaccines-list.htm

>

> Dont' believe me....

>

> Here's a CDC recommended schedule:

>

>

>

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedu\

le_pr.pdf

>

> We did about six months of research before Bhakti was born, but still, more

>

> research needs to be done.

>

> As far as adverse reactions to vaccines, please read Randall Neustaedter's

>

> book,

>

> " the Vaccine Guide " , which has in-depth discussions of vaccine reactions

> for

>

> the following vaccines

>

> and 38 pages of medical journal references: pgs 297-335

>

> Varicella pgs 152-154

>

> Diphtheria pg. 158

>

> Hep A pgs 165-166

>

> Hep B pgs 173-178

>

> Lyme dz pgs 182-184

>

> Hib Meningitis pgs 191-193

>

> Meningococcal pgs 196

>

> Pneumococcal pg 199

>

> Mumps pgs 213-215

>

> Rubella pgs 218-221

>

> Pertussis pgs 226-233 (longest evidence of reactions)

>

> Polio 240-243

>

> Smallpox 251-253

>

> Tetanus 258-260 (generally safe)

>

> If you really want to read these, I can let you borrow the book.

>

> Otherwise, I don't believe in the mercury argument for all of the problems

>

> and I don't tell any parent to vaccinate or not vaccinate,

>

> but to become more educated about it all. Not vaccinating Bhakti was a

>

> personal decision

>

> and we're sticking by it. Tetanus vaccination seems safe in most regards

>

> and we will vaccinate for travel

>

> and for Hep in a few years. The other diseases can be treated with

>

> acupuncture, herbs and a week of rest.

>

> Best,

>

> K

>

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Alon Marcus

<alonmarcus<alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Koko you make many statements regarding effects of vaccines for which i

>

> > would like to see supporting evidence.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

[Guest guest]

John,

We seem to have a belief that if they tell us that it is not in there anymore,

then it must be true. I wish that was the case as there would be a lot fewer

damaged children.

First, long after the vaccine manufacturers told us they stopped using mercury

in their vaccines, it was still on the vaccine labels, so we must assume it was

in there.

Second, when I attended Dr. Geier's lecture, he mentioned that he had many such

vaccines tested for contents and found that even without the mention of mercury

on their label, as mandated by the FDA, mercury was still present. The truth in

labeling law violation should have us all mad.

Third, a number of the vaccines you mention, still are used on children and

still have mercury.

Fourth, no amount of mercury has been found to be safe according to OSHA. It is

a neurotoxin of the highest order and this point should be stressed with all

parents of small children.

The immune system is not just about reactions to microbes and chemicals but also

must be created and thus it needs nourishment to produce. I see a lot of people

with immunity issues and use Kiiko Matsumoto's treatment ideas (or rather her

teacher Nagano)to help them. I found it necessary to not underestimate the

influence of the immune system and yes it can be treated with acupuncture and

moxibustion.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:31 -0700

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> Mike,

> I read this article:

>

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/An%20Assessment%20of%20the%20Impact%20of%2\

0Thimerosal%20on%20Childhood%20Neurodevelopmental%20Disorders.pdf

>

> It made me think of the compounded methylmercury intravenously shot into

> babies when

> thiomersal was still in vaccines... but for the most part that wouldn't be

> a large consideration today,

> since...

>

> " In the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries,

> thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood

vaccination

> schedules <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule>.

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-drugsaf-0>In the U.S.,

> the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are

> some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older

> than two years.

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-4>Several vaccines

> that are not routinely recommended for young children do

> contain thiomersal, including DT

> (diphtheria<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria>and

> tetanus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus>), Td (tetanus and

> diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace of

> thiomersal from steps in manufacture. "

>

> Just because thiomersal is not in the vaccines, doesn't mean that people

> should be less cautious.

> That was the biggest argument from our first pediatrician.... " there were

> some complications before with mercury and vaccines and whole cell pertussis

> etc... but those have been remedied (sic).. "

>

> 1. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-0> *

> b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-1> Bigham

> M, Copes R (2005). " Thiomersal in vaccines: balancing the risk of adverse

> effects with the risk of vaccine-preventable disease " . *Drug Saf*

> *28*(2): 89–101.

> doi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>:

>

10.2165/00002018-200528020-00001<http://dx.doi.org/10.2165%2F00002018-200528020-\

00001>.

> PMID 15691220 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15691220>.

> 2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-1>* " Thimerosal

> in Vaccines: Frequently Asked

> Questions " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm>.

> Food and Drug

>

Administration<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration_%28Unit\

ed_States%29>.

> http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm. Retrieved on 2008-03-09.

> 3. ^

*a*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-0>

> *b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-1>

> *c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-2>

> *d* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-3>

> " Thimerosal

> in vaccines " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm>. Center for

> Biologics Evaluation and Research, U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

> 2008

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008>-06-03<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_3>.

> http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-07-25.

> 4. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-0>

> *b*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-1>

> *c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-2>

> *d*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-3>

> *e* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-4>

> *f*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-5>

> *g* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-6> Baker JP

> (2008). " Mercury, vaccines, and autism: one controversy, three histories " .

> *Am J Public Health* *98* (2): 244–53.

> doi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>

> :10.2105/AJPH.2007.113159 <http://dx.doi.org/10.2105%2FAJPH.2007.113159>.

> PMID 18172138 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172138>.

> 5. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-4>* Coordinating

> Center for Infectious Diseases (2007-10-26). " Thimerosal in seasonal

> influenza vaccine " <http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm>. Centers

> for Disease Control and Prevention.

> http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-04-02.

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:14 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

>

>>

>>

>>

>> I would like to suggest some links for info about several vaccines and/or

>> their constituents that have been studied.

>>

>> http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/mark-geier-research.htm

>>

>> http://fr.truveo.com/Dr-Mark-Geier-David-Geier-discuss-mercury/id/538123512

>>

>> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/encephalopathies.pdf

>>

>> I hope these are helpful. BTW, I attended a seminar by Dr. Geier and his

>> son that really made sense about the autism issue. They found a connection

>> with testosterone and mercury. Go figure.

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>

>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

>> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:57:20 -0700

>> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>>

>>

>> Alon,

>>

>> The CDC has a few vaccination schedules up... you can count the number of

>>

>> vaccination shots

>>

>> and this isn't even all of them... there's also smallpox, anthrax, Lyme

>>

>> Disease, typhoid, rabies,

>>

>> Japanese encephalitis, shingles and yellow fever just in case you want to

>>

>> collect them all.

>>

>> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/vaccines-list.htm

>>

>> Dont' believe me....

>>

>> Here's a CDC recommended schedule:

>>

>>

>>

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedu\

le_pr.pdf

>>

>> We did about six months of research before Bhakti was born, but still, more

>>

>> research needs to be done.

>>

>> As far as adverse reactions to vaccines, please read Randall Neustaedter's

>>

>> book,

>>

>> " the Vaccine Guide " , which has in-depth discussions of vaccine reactions

>> for

>>

>> the following vaccines

>>

>> and 38 pages of medical journal references: pgs 297-335

>>

>> Varicella pgs 152-154

>>

>> Diphtheria pg. 158

>>

>> Hep A pgs 165-166

>>

>> Hep B pgs 173-178

>>

>> Lyme dz pgs 182-184

>>

>> Hib Meningitis pgs 191-193

>>

>> Meningococcal pgs 196

>>

>> Pneumococcal pg 199

>>

>> Mumps pgs 213-215

>>

>> Rubella pgs 218-221

>>

>> Pertussis pgs 226-233 (longest evidence of reactions)

>>

>> Polio 240-243

>>

>> Smallpox 251-253

>>

>> Tetanus 258-260 (generally safe)

>>

>> If you really want to read these, I can let you borrow the book.

>>

>> Otherwise, I don't believe in the mercury argument for all of the problems

>>

>> and I don't tell any parent to vaccinate or not vaccinate,

>>

>> but to become more educated about it all. Not vaccinating Bhakti was a

>>

>> personal decision

>>

>> and we're sticking by it. Tetanus vaccination seems safe in most regards

>>

>> and we will vaccinate for travel

>>

>> and for Hep in a few years. The other diseases can be treated with

>>

>> acupuncture, herbs and a week of rest.

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> K

>>

>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Alon Marcus

<alonmarcus<alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

>> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Koko you make many statements regarding effects of vaccines for which i

>>

>>> would like to see supporting evidence.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

This study was with the CDC database.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

naturaldoc1

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:16:38 +0000

RE: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alon,

 

I just sent some links to the group just before I got to your email. Actually,

one of the links listed was a CDC analysis which looked at autism rates and the

usage of mercury free vaccines. They did show a connection.

 

 

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

 

alonmarcus

 

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:44:49 -0700

 

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

And by the way there is not reduction in autism in kids vaccinated without

Thimerosal vs those with it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Koko

Have you read any of the collage of pediatrics reviews to get the

other side? I am aware of both sides of the argument and while i do

believe there are some unanswered questions, and if i had my way i

would have waited with my kids until they were older, but you know

Ruti, i dont buy many of the associations that many think are clear.

The are not.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike

Here is another perspective Pervasive Developmental Disorders in

Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?max...

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike

if this was true i would think it would be very easy money for anyone

suing the drug companies.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

I read the literature that was given to us by both pediatricians,

plus as much as possible from the CDC.

 

I agree that vaccinating later (after 2 yrs of age), less frequently and in

isolation (not compounding vaccines)

are a smarter choice.

 

I don't think there's a conspiracy to numb the population, but there may be

a conspiracy in covering up

the negative reactions to certain vaccinations. Of course, there's 2 sides

to every coin and argument.

Some vaccinations, like polio and small pox, has done much more good than

harm.

Others like varicella, mumps, measles and rubella are less clear-cut in

their benefit to risk ratio.

 

K

 

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:17 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

>

>

> Koko

> Have you read any of the collage of pediatrics reviews to get the

> other side? I am aware of both sides of the argument and while i do

> believe there are some unanswered questions, and if i had my way i

> would have waited with my kids until they were older, but you know

> Ruti, i dont buy many of the associations that many think are clear.

> The are not.

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi John, I think you've hit the nail on the head with the following:

 

--John-

 

I don't think there's a conspiracy to numb the population, but there may be

a conspiracy in covering up the negative reactions to certain vaccinations. Of

course, there's 2 sides

to every coin and argument.

Some vaccinations, like polio and small pox, has done much more good than harm.

Others like varicella, mumps, measles and rubella are less clear-cut in their

benefit to risk ratio.

---

 

Clearly vaccination works, but like any therapy it has its limits: and those

limits are not being recognised. This is not even getting into preservatives etc

of course.

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, testosterone (hormone) makes the mercury 200% more toxic that as toxic as

it can me.Estrogen (hormone) seems to be a bit protective against mercury

toxicity but what happens to the females is that autoimmune disease rates are

higher for them and they exhibit them later. The hormones clearly play a part in

the psychoneuroendocrinimmuno system.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

naturaldoc1

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:14:13 +0000

RE: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to suggest some links for info about several vaccines and/or their

constituents that have been studied.

 

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/mark-geier-research.htm

 

http://fr.truveo.com/Dr-Mark-Geier-David-Geier-discuss-mercury/id/538123512

 

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/encephalopathies.pdf

 

I hope these are helpful. BTW, I attended a seminar by Dr. Geier and his son

that really made sense about the autism issue. They found a connection with

testosterone and mercury. Go figure.

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

johnkokko

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:57:20 -0700

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Alon,

 

The CDC has a few vaccination schedules up... you can count the number of

 

vaccination shots

 

and this isn't even all of them... there's also smallpox, anthrax, Lyme

 

Disease, typhoid, rabies,

 

Japanese encephalitis, shingles and yellow fever just in case you want to

 

collect them all.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/vaccines-list.htm

 

Dont' believe me....

 

Here's a CDC recommended schedule:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedu\

le_pr.pdf

 

We did about six months of research before Bhakti was born, but still, more

 

research needs to be done.

 

As far as adverse reactions to vaccines, please read Randall Neustaedter's

 

book,

 

" the Vaccine Guide " , which has in-depth discussions of vaccine reactions for

 

the following vaccines

 

and 38 pages of medical journal references: pgs 297-335

 

Varicella pgs 152-154

 

Diphtheria pg. 158

 

Hep A pgs 165-166

 

Hep B pgs 173-178

 

Lyme dz pgs 182-184

 

Hib Meningitis pgs 191-193

 

Meningococcal pgs 196

 

Pneumococcal pg 199

 

Mumps pgs 213-215

 

Rubella pgs 218-221

 

Pertussis pgs 226-233 (longest evidence of reactions)

 

Polio 240-243

 

Smallpox 251-253

 

Tetanus 258-260 (generally safe)

 

If you really want to read these, I can let you borrow the book.

 

Otherwise, I don't believe in the mercury argument for all of the problems

 

and I don't tell any parent to vaccinate or not vaccinate,

 

but to become more educated about it all. Not vaccinating Bhakti was a

 

personal decision

 

and we're sticking by it. Tetanus vaccination seems safe in most regards

 

and we will vaccinate for travel

 

and for Hep in a few years. The other diseases can be treated with

 

acupuncture, herbs and a week of rest.

 

Best,

 

K

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

> Koko you make many statements regarding effects of vaccines for which i

 

> would like to see supporting evidence.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Also the part that koprowski plays in the fruad of science and the beLIEf that

vaccines are effective. Koprowski was the Director of Wistar for 35 years and

was resonsible for the very detrimonious vaccine research, truth be known,

Wistar was the forefront of this nations vaccine research and is now a NATIONAL

CANCER CENTER........if you understand the REAL TRUTH, most of the integrity of

that scam of his polio vaccine and the work done on vaccnating the areas in

Africa that first broke with HIV with CHAT Wistar vaccines (polio contaminated

with HIV), look into the work Koprowski has done in genetic engineering of

rabies with cowpox and then without the consent of the Argentice Government had

people drink milk from cows innoculated with his frankenstine vaccine.Koprowski

is still being heralded despite his " termination " from Wistar following his

escapades upon which he felt he had sovernity to experiment as he wished, look

into the works of him and Schnell at Jefferson university where they have

accomploished weaponizing the rabies virus.Koprowski was involved with Gallo and

the very well footnoted and referenced of Ed hooper in the RIver is more

accurate then you could ever expect vested interest to be.I know now enough

history of the CDC from their very own pages of historical review to never trust

anything coming from them all you have to do is FOLLOW THE MONEY, 30 pieces of

silver and Dr. Paul Offit's agenda becomes clear.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:29:13 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM. That's in EMERGING VIRUSES by Len Horowitz.

He says that HIV was developed as a " soft kill " biological agent that would

reduce populations slowly. He says Ebola was also developed as a bioweapon,

but that it is not practical, because it kills too efficiently, not

permitting itself a chance to spread.

The SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM was developed by Nixon and Kissinger

primarily for the African continent.

Robert Gallo's own history of academic and scientific fraud is also

noteworthy.

 

-

" Patricia Jordan " <coastalcatclinic

" traditional chinese med " <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Friday, April 24, 2009 3:00 PM

RE: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Well the HPV vaccine will not work and it will most likely result in

fertility issues.

 

you can not inject a vaccine and develop cell mediated immunity which is

what you need for the HPV.

 

But it deosn't stop pharmaceutical companies for putting out bad science and

bad vaccines, the animals have a injectible herpes vaccine and it won't

work, we have one that will that is drops to be applied to the mucous

membranes of the cats eyes or nasal tissue, what happens if you inject

herpes you actually REACTIVATE latent herpes, no benefit at all comes from

not understanding the disease and the immune system. Gardasil has killed 28

so far and delivered many with Gullian Barre so get in line, perhaps you

can be one less.....

 

HIV, Africa, you need to be brought into the circle of truth, HIV was an

answer to the grants that paid for the development of a synthetic biological

weapon that would destroy the human immune system. First place it was laced

into polio vaccines delivered to areas of Africa were the first cases of HIV

were found.......there are no coincidences in science.Read The River by Ed

Hooper, 12 monkeys and the origin of Aids, Dro horowitz information adn the

Special cancer project which when Congress wanted to know what was going

on....had to go OUTSIDE our country for the copies of the records.We have

been FOREVER experimenting on the third world countries, that is why we

don't hear alot about the adverse effects of vaccines following

administration and the New England journal of medicine just covered this

problem, and the students of Harvard have just demanded a divorce of their

instutuion from the pahrmacuetical industry, there is a reason. recently,

they were so happy to announce they were finally able to get AIDS to infect

a monkey.....do they think we are crazy? That was the smokescreen for where

HIV came from in the first place OOOPPSSS again.Recently Dr. Gallo who was

paid by our defense dept to find a synthetic biological agent to corrupt the

human immune system, and credited with being the " discoverer of HIV " was

panned by a group of scientists whol want retraction for Gallos work on HIV

as they too know the real story of the origin of AIDS. Even gallo was

spanked by the NIH and priviledges taken away from him with working on human

subjects following the debacle with his vaccines he sent to Africa.Yes, the

truthneeds to come out and go ahead get in line for the " bird Flu shot "

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

Chinese Medicine

angelapfa

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:34:51 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

I think the problem with the discussion is that it is a bit too random.

Right after world war 2 there was a polio epidemic in Germany and I went to

school with many crippled children who are probably today suffering from

post polio symptom, I was immunized, and I am grateful that I was. Are we

overdoing it a bit now with the vaccicines, maybe yes. It all depends. If

there was a Hep B vaccine available, I think I would get it, if I had a

daughter I would vaccine her against HPV. Sometimes vaccines offer

protection, just think how many millions of people in Africa could be saved

if we had a HIV vaccine. I think we need to think about this issue in a more

differentiated way. It seems some people on this listserv have a soapbox

they want to stand on, and that can get tiring for others.

 

Regards,

Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

 

angelapfa

 

www.InnerhealthSalem.com

 

Phone: 503 364 3022

-

Mark Milotay

Chinese Medicine

Friday, April 24, 2009 9:27 AM

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

As the ListMaster (is that like being the key master?) I whole

heartedly approve the prolonged conversation on this, as it is

relevant to us as practitioners, and as a parent of 2 ( & IY'H a third

on the way) children who have not been vaccinated I find this

discussion by my peers quite useful and fascinating. As practitioners

we need to be able to provide our patients with all of the information

possible when they are trying to make a decision about something like

not vaccinating, and this discussion has already identified a number

of good resources for this.

 

Please, with my blessing, continue this discussion.

 

- Mark

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:59 AM, < wrote:

>

>

> Hi All, & Patricia & Yehuda,

>

> This list may not be an appropriate forum for prolonged discussion on

> the pros and cons of vaccination.

>

> We need guidance from the ListMaster on whether or not to continue

> this thread here. Meanwhile, here are a few comments.

>

> 1. Our youngest daughter (a trainee surgeon with a brilliant truth-

> seeking mind) with whom I had expressed reservations about the wisdom

> of mass vaccination, texted me yesterday:

>

> " [Dad, re the pros and cons of vaccination] ... in the past two

> weeks, I have admitted 3 cases of severe mumps in non-immunised men.

> Case #1is in ICU, brain-dead due to mumps encephalitis;

> Case #2 lost both testicles due to mumps orchitis;

> Case #3 is very ill with mumps pancreatitis ... "

>

> Like most young doctors and vets whom I know, my daughter has no

> doubt that the benefits of vaccination against serious diseases

> outweigh the risks of not vaccinating. However, she is not an expert

> immunologist, so SHE TRUSTS the conclusions of her teachers / peers.

>

> 2. DE FACTO, the vaccine industry (manufacturers, wholesalers and

> retailers) and those who administer vaccines (doctors, nurses,

> healthcare workers, vets, vet techs, etc) have a vested financial

> interest in promoting vaccination. Without vaccination, they would

> lose turnover / income.

>

> However, IMO, most vaccinators are not evil people in a diabolical

> conspiracy to corrupt the human or animal genomes. Neither are they

> stupid people. They BELIEVE that vaccines confer more benefit than

> harm to the recipients.

>

> 3. Professionals' beliefs and practices arise mainly from their

> culture, professional training, interaction with peers, practical

> experience and brainwashing (commercial brochures, seminars, courses,

> etc).

>

> We (busy practitioners) simply have not the time to research in depth

> the pros and cons of every action that we take. Therefore, MUCH of

> what we do is because we have been trained to do it, or we rely

> heavily on / TRUST the advice of peers / authorities whom we trust.

>

> We TRUST our pastors / rabbis; we trust our Governments; we trust our

> academics / National Health Authorities, WHO, national Banks, etc.

>

> For me, the main question is: are we RIGHT to place our trust in

> those authorities?

>

> It is obvious from recent international scandals that INDIVIDUALS in

> the Churches, national Governments, Banks, etc criminally betrayed

> our trust. Can we trust ANY authority now?

>

> 4. Some opponents of mass vaccination, especially with simultaneous

> use of multi-antigens, say that there is no (or inadequate) proof of

> safety and / or efficacy.

>

> Having worked as a professional researcher for >41 years, my

> experience is that the vast majority of my research colleagues are

> decent and intelligent people who seek the truth in their areas of

> expertise.

>

> Though I am not expert in immunology, thousands of highly trained

> people work to the best of their professional ability in that

> specialised area. Medline has many papers on the safety and efficacy

> of vaccines. Unless the authors of those papers are liars or stupid,

> THEY believe their conclusions.

>

> But safety and efficacy are relative terms.

>

> What is safe? For example, is it safe if 1 vaccinee per 100,000 dies?

> Is it safe if 1 in 1000 develops cancer or autoimmune disease. Were

> the deaths / diseases in vaccinees due to the vaccine, or due to

> coincidental factors?

>

> For how many years must vaccinees be monitored BEFORE ANY conclusions

> on safety can be drawn?

>

> What is the definition of efficacy? Should it be based on titers of

> specific antibodies, or on the incidence rate of the specific disease

> in the vaccinees versus a similar unvaccinated group over a

> predetermined follow-up period (1 year?, 2 years? what?)

>

> For example [see abstract below]: The incidence of diarrhoea in the

> group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%,

> compared with 39.7% in the non-vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted

> risk ratio 0.40). The first episode was significantly shorter in the

> vaccinated group (mean 2.3 days) than in the non-vaccinated group

> (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

>

> Efficacy here was far short of 100%. But can we ever expect 100%

> efficacy from anything?

>

> Whom am I to believe?

>

> Most, if not all, medical and surgical interventions carry some risk.

> IMO, an impartial comment on the pros and cons of vaccination MUST

> try to assess the risk-benefit of vaccinating versus not vaccinating.

> Both options carry risks and benefits.

>

> We should aim to fulfil the principle of " the greatest good for the

> greatest number " .

>

> Meanwhile, whom should I believe?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

> Torrell JM, Aumatell CM, Ramos SM, Mestre LG, Salas CM. Reduction of

> travellers' diarrhoea by WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine in young, high-

> risk travellers. Vaccine. 2009 Apr 16. [Epub ahead of print]. Intnl

> Vaccination Center. Hospital Universitario de Bellvitge, Feixa Llarga

> s/n 08907 Hospitalet. Barcelona, Spain. AIMS: A bidirectional cohort

> study investigates whether pre-travel vaccination with whole

> cell/recombinant B subunit inactivated, killed oral cholera vaccine

> reduces the incidence of diarrhoea in young adult travellers to

> highrisk areas. SCOPE: Risk of travellers' diarrhoea was assessed

> according to destination and reason for travel in high risk

> travellers of a travel clinic in Barcelona, Spain. Those at high-risk

> between January and December 2005 were advised on water/food safety

> and hygiene. High-risk travellers between January and December 2006

> were additionally vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine. Data

> regarding diarrhoea were gathered by structured telephone interview

> or emailed questionnaire following the travellers' return. The

> incidence of diarrhoea in the group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral

> cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%, compared with 39.7% in the non-

> vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted risk ratio 0.40). The first

> episode was significantly shorter in the vaccinated group (mean 2.3

> days) than in the non-vaccinated group (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> CONCLUSIONS: The protective effect of the WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine

> was 57% in the young, highrisk travellers. Vaccination with the

> WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine as well as food safety and hygiene advice

> could offer effective means of reducing the risk of diarrhoea while

> abroad. PMID: 19376179 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

Curious as to what you might consider effective for small pox, when it

apparently was on its way out prior to any serious vaccine scheduling.

Similarly, many other childhood illnesses were on a decline prior to vaccines as

well. So how do we consider this data? I hear little discourse on the

historical data and maybe we need to look at this stuff a bit further before we

pat them on the backs for vaccinations. Just a thought.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

Chinese Medicine

subincor

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 16:43:17 +0000

Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi John, I think you've hit the nail on the head with the following:

 

 

 

--John-

 

 

 

I don't think there's a conspiracy to numb the population, but there may be

 

a conspiracy in covering up the negative reactions to certain vaccinations. Of

course, there's 2 sides

 

to every coin and argument.

 

Some vaccinations, like polio and small pox, has done much more good than harm.

 

Others like varicella, mumps, measles and rubella are less clear-cut in their

benefit to risk ratio.

 

---

 

 

 

Clearly vaccination works, but like any therapy it has its limits: and those

limits are not being recognised. This is not even getting into preservatives etc

of course.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Hugo Ramiro

 

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

 

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

It is and maybe that is why they continue to fight so hard and even legislate no

lawsuits against them for adverse reactions. There was some recent language on

this that was included in the so-called " Patriot Bill " that prevents us from

seeking any legal retribution and they can even force us to have vaccinations.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

alonmarcus

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:55:46 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

 

if this was true i would think it would be very easy money for anyone

 

suing the drug companies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

 

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

We are assuming that no more mercury-laden vaccines were used yet they have and

do continue to be used in the marketplace. I mentioned that some vaccines still

had mercury on their label much later then they claimed and also they were

allowed to continue to use up their stockpiles of these vaccines as they saw

fit.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

alonmarcus

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:51:27 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike

 

Here is another perspective Pervasive Developmental Disorders in

 

Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations

 

 

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139?max...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

 

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello to all of you,

 

I am new to this group and was excited to join in time to read all of the

responses pertaining to this topic. I just have a small thing to say. I

have two children, 11 and 14 whom have never been vaccinated. My youngest

has epilepsy and brain damage from hypoglycemia shortly after he was born.

We were given a vaccine handbook when we were in the hospital with our son

and it clearly stated that children with CNS disorders were contraindicated

for vaccines. That didn't stop the doctors however from continually

demanding that we vaccinate our children. I have read a lot about vaccines

both pros and cons and expected such arguments from such a controversial

subject. What I have difficulty with is the fear factor that our doctors

tried to instill in us. There was no urging of us to educate ourselves of

our choice but a feeling that this was mandatory. This is what I feel is

very wrong. We are in a different era than when the vaccines were first

produced, mainly to put an end to epidemics brought about by poor sanitation

and ignorance. What I instill in my patients is that they have a choice.

And that we have the power to seek alternative means if we choose not to

vaccinate. My hats off to all of you who continue to seek the truth and to

empower our patients with it.

 

Anne Biris L.Ac

 

The Lotus Center

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

coastalcatclinic wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Also the part that koprowski plays in the fruad of science and the beLIEf

> that vaccines are effective. Koprowski was the Director of Wistar for 35

> years and was resonsible for the very detrimonious vaccine research, truth

> be known, Wistar was the forefront of this nations vaccine research and is

> now a NATIONAL CANCER CENTER........if you understand the REAL TRUTH, most

> of the integrity of that scam of his polio vaccine and the work done on

> vaccnating the areas in Africa that first broke with HIV with CHAT Wistar

> vaccines (polio contaminated with HIV), look into the work Koprowski has

> done in genetic engineering of rabies with cowpox and then without the

> consent of the Argentice Government had people drink milk from cows

> innoculated with his frankenstine vaccine.Koprowski is still being heralded

> despite his " termination " from Wistar following his escapades upon which he

> felt he had sovernity to experiment as he wished, look into the works of him

> and Schnell at Jefferson university where they have accomploished

> weaponizing the rabies virus.Koprowski was involved with Gallo and the very

> well footnoted and referenced of Ed hooper in the RIver is more accurate

> then you could ever expect vested interest to be.I know now enough history

> of the CDC from their very own pages of historical review to never trust

> anything coming from them all you have to do is FOLLOW THE MONEY, 30 pieces

> of silver and Dr. Paul Offit's agenda becomes clear.

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:29:13 -0700

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM. That's in EMERGING VIRUSES by Len Horowitz.

> He says that HIV was developed as a " soft kill " biological agent that would

>

> reduce populations slowly. He says Ebola was also developed as a bioweapon,

>

> but that it is not practical, because it kills too efficiently, not

> permitting itself a chance to spread.

> The SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM was developed by Nixon and Kissinger

> primarily for the African continent.

> Robert Gallo's own history of academic and scientific fraud is also

> noteworthy.

>

>

> -

> " Patricia Jordan "

<coastalcatclinic<coastalcatclinic%40hotmail.com>

> >

> " traditional chinese med " <

>

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> Friday, April 24, 2009 3:00 PM

> RE: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> Well the HPV vaccine will not work and it will most likely result in

> fertility issues.

>

> you can not inject a vaccine and develop cell mediated immunity which is

> what you need for the HPV.

>

> But it deosn't stop pharmaceutical companies for putting out bad science

> and

> bad vaccines, the animals have a injectible herpes vaccine and it won't

> work, we have one that will that is drops to be applied to the mucous

> membranes of the cats eyes or nasal tissue, what happens if you inject

> herpes you actually REACTIVATE latent herpes, no benefit at all comes from

> not understanding the disease and the immune system. Gardasil has killed 28

>

> so far and delivered many with Gullian Barre so get in line, perhaps you

> can be one less.....

>

> HIV, Africa, you need to be brought into the circle of truth, HIV was an

> answer to the grants that paid for the development of a synthetic

> biological

> weapon that would destroy the human immune system. First place it was laced

>

> into polio vaccines delivered to areas of Africa were the first cases of

> HIV

> were found.......there are no coincidences in science.Read The River by Ed

> Hooper, 12 monkeys and the origin of Aids, Dro horowitz information adn the

>

> Special cancer project which when Congress wanted to know what was going

> on....had to go OUTSIDE our country for the copies of the records.We have

> been FOREVER experimenting on the third world countries, that is why we

> don't hear alot about the adverse effects of vaccines following

> administration and the New England journal of medicine just covered this

> problem, and the students of Harvard have just demanded a divorce of their

> instutuion from the pahrmacuetical industry, there is a reason. recently,

> they were so happy to announce they were finally able to get AIDS to infect

>

> a monkey.....do they think we are crazy? That was the smokescreen for where

>

> HIV came from in the first place OOOPPSSS again.Recently Dr. Gallo who was

> paid by our defense dept to find a synthetic biological agent to corrupt

> the

> human immune system, and credited with being the " discoverer of HIV " was

> panned by a group of scientists whol want retraction for Gallos work on HIV

>

> as they too know the real story of the origin of AIDS. Even gallo was

> spanked by the NIH and priviledges taken away from him with working on

> human

> subjects following the debacle with his vaccines he sent to Africa.Yes, the

>

> truthneeds to come out and go ahead get in line for the " bird Flu shot "

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net>

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:34:51 -0700

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> I think the problem with the discussion is that it is a bit too random.

> Right after world war 2 there was a polio epidemic in Germany and I went to

>

> school with many crippled children who are probably today suffering from

> post polio symptom, I was immunized, and I am grateful that I was. Are we

> overdoing it a bit now with the vaccicines, maybe yes. It all depends. If

> there was a Hep B vaccine available, I think I would get it, if I had a

> daughter I would vaccine her against HPV. Sometimes vaccines offer

> protection, just think how many millions of people in Africa could be saved

>

> if we had a HIV vaccine. I think we need to think about this issue in a

> more

> differentiated way. It seems some people on this listserv have a soapbox

> they want to stand on, and that can get tiring for others.

>

> Regards,

> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net>

>

> www.InnerhealthSalem.com <http://www.innerhealthsalem.com/>

>

> Phone: 503 364 3022

> -

> Mark Milotay

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Friday, April 24, 2009 9:27 AM

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> As the ListMaster (is that like being the key master?) I whole

> heartedly approve the prolonged conversation on this, as it is

> relevant to us as practitioners, and as a parent of 2 ( & IY'H a third

> on the way) children who have not been vaccinated I find this

> discussion by my peers quite useful and fascinating. As practitioners

> we need to be able to provide our patients with all of the information

> possible when they are trying to make a decision about something like

> not vaccinating, and this discussion has already identified a number

> of good resources for this.

>

> Please, with my blessing, continue this discussion.

>

> - Mark

>

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:59 AM,

<<%40tinet.ie>>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi All, & Patricia & Yehuda,

> >

> > This list may not be an appropriate forum for prolonged discussion on

> > the pros and cons of vaccination.

> >

> > We need guidance from the ListMaster on whether or not to continue

> > this thread here. Meanwhile, here are a few comments.

> >

> > 1. Our youngest daughter (a trainee surgeon with a brilliant truth-

> > seeking mind) with whom I had expressed reservations about the wisdom

> > of mass vaccination, texted me yesterday:

> >

> > " [Dad, re the pros and cons of vaccination] ... in the past two

> > weeks, I have admitted 3 cases of severe mumps in non-immunised men.

> > Case #1is in ICU, brain-dead due to mumps encephalitis;

> > Case #2 lost both testicles due to mumps orchitis;

> > Case #3 is very ill with mumps pancreatitis ... "

> >

> > Like most young doctors and vets whom I know, my daughter has no

> > doubt that the benefits of vaccination against serious diseases

> > outweigh the risks of not vaccinating. However, she is not an expert

> > immunologist, so SHE TRUSTS the conclusions of her teachers / peers.

> >

> > 2. DE FACTO, the vaccine industry (manufacturers, wholesalers and

> > retailers) and those who administer vaccines (doctors, nurses,

> > healthcare workers, vets, vet techs, etc) have a vested financial

> > interest in promoting vaccination. Without vaccination, they would

> > lose turnover / income.

> >

> > However, IMO, most vaccinators are not evil people in a diabolical

> > conspiracy to corrupt the human or animal genomes. Neither are they

> > stupid people. They BELIEVE that vaccines confer more benefit than

> > harm to the recipients.

> >

> > 3. Professionals' beliefs and practices arise mainly from their

> > culture, professional training, interaction with peers, practical

> > experience and brainwashing (commercial brochures, seminars, courses,

> > etc).

> >

> > We (busy practitioners) simply have not the time to research in depth

> > the pros and cons of every action that we take. Therefore, MUCH of

> > what we do is because we have been trained to do it, or we rely

> > heavily on / TRUST the advice of peers / authorities whom we trust.

> >

> > We TRUST our pastors / rabbis; we trust our Governments; we trust our

> > academics / National Health Authorities, WHO, national Banks, etc.

> >

> > For me, the main question is: are we RIGHT to place our trust in

> > those authorities?

> >

> > It is obvious from recent international scandals that INDIVIDUALS in

> > the Churches, national Governments, Banks, etc criminally betrayed

> > our trust. Can we trust ANY authority now?

> >

> > 4. Some opponents of mass vaccination, especially with simultaneous

> > use of multi-antigens, say that there is no (or inadequate) proof of

> > safety and / or efficacy.

> >

> > Having worked as a professional researcher for >41 years, my

> > experience is that the vast majority of my research colleagues are

> > decent and intelligent people who seek the truth in their areas of

> > expertise.

> >

> > Though I am not expert in immunology, thousands of highly trained

> > people work to the best of their professional ability in that

> > specialised area. Medline has many papers on the safety and efficacy

> > of vaccines. Unless the authors of those papers are liars or stupid,

> > THEY believe their conclusions.

> >

> > But safety and efficacy are relative terms.

> >

> > What is safe? For example, is it safe if 1 vaccinee per 100,000 dies?

> > Is it safe if 1 in 1000 develops cancer or autoimmune disease. Were

> > the deaths / diseases in vaccinees due to the vaccine, or due to

> > coincidental factors?

> >

> > For how many years must vaccinees be monitored BEFORE ANY conclusions

> > on safety can be drawn?

> >

> > What is the definition of efficacy? Should it be based on titers of

> > specific antibodies, or on the incidence rate of the specific disease

> > in the vaccinees versus a similar unvaccinated group over a

> > predetermined follow-up period (1 year?, 2 years? what?)

> >

> > For example [see abstract below]: The incidence of diarrhoea in the

> > group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%,

> > compared with 39.7% in the non-vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted

> > risk ratio 0.40). The first episode was significantly shorter in the

> > vaccinated group (mean 2.3 days) than in the non-vaccinated group

> > (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> >

> > Efficacy here was far short of 100%. But can we ever expect 100%

> > efficacy from anything?

> >

> > Whom am I to believe?

> >

> > Most, if not all, medical and surgical interventions carry some risk.

> > IMO, an impartial comment on the pros and cons of vaccination MUST

> > try to assess the risk-benefit of vaccinating versus not vaccinating.

> > Both options carry risks and benefits.

> >

> > We should aim to fulfil the principle of " the greatest good for the

> > greatest number " .

> >

> > Meanwhile, whom should I believe?

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> >

> > Torrell JM, Aumatell CM, Ramos SM, Mestre LG, Salas CM. Reduction of

> > travellers' diarrhoea by WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine in young, high-

> > risk travellers. Vaccine. 2009 Apr 16. [Epub ahead of print]. Intnl

> > Vaccination Center. Hospital Universitario de Bellvitge, Feixa Llarga

> > s/n 08907 Hospitalet. Barcelona, Spain. AIMS: A bidirectional cohort

> > study investigates whether pre-travel vaccination with whole

> > cell/recombinant B subunit inactivated, killed oral cholera vaccine

> > reduces the incidence of diarrhoea in young adult travellers to

> > highrisk areas. SCOPE: Risk of travellers' diarrhoea was assessed

> > according to destination and reason for travel in high risk

> > travellers of a travel clinic in Barcelona, Spain. Those at high-risk

> > between January and December 2005 were advised on water/food safety

> > and hygiene. High-risk travellers between January and December 2006

> > were additionally vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine. Data

> > regarding diarrhoea were gathered by structured telephone interview

> > or emailed questionnaire following the travellers' return. The

> > incidence of diarrhoea in the group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral

> > cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%, compared with 39.7% in the non-

> > vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted risk ratio 0.40). The first

> > episode was significantly shorter in the vaccinated group (mean 2.3

> > days) than in the non-vaccinated group (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> > CONCLUSIONS: The protective effect of the WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine

> > was 57% in the young, highrisk travellers. Vaccination with the

> > WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine as well as food safety and hygiene advice

> > could offer effective means of reducing the risk of diarrhoea while

> > abroad. PMID: 19376179 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike:

 

--Mike B-

Curious as to what you might consider effective for small pox, when it

apparently was on its way out prior to any serious vaccine scheduling.

Similarly, many other childhood illnesses were on a decline prior to

vaccines as well. So how do we consider this data? I hear little

discourse on the historical data and maybe we need to look at this

stuff a bit further before we pat them on the backs for vaccinations.

Just a thought.

---

 

 

Woah, who's patting who on the back?

 

Reinterpreting data that has already been interpreted and entered into the

doctrine is difficult, and I can understand why some emotions are running high.

 

I am not interested in wholesale rejections of anything, honestly. I believe in

the genius of human beings and I've found that there's at least a grain of truth

in everything and anything. I'm not sure there's anything that's entirely

garbage. We'd have to go into some fairly involved buddhist doctrine which I am

not sure I really grasp in order for me to be able to discuss this further, so:

 

I work off two data points here, the first being a recent article in CMAJ where

the conclusion was:

 

" Pneumococcal vaccination does not appear to be effective in preventing

pneumonia, even in populations for whom the vaccine is currently recommended. "

 

Efficacy of pneumococcal vaccination in adults: a meta-analysis CMAJ

2009;180(1):48-58

 

The other is Cuba. Being an island with the ability to carry out massive

vaccination gives it some special significance...I think.

 

One study in 1999 compared pre and post vaccination invasive meningococcal

disease in young children. The results in a very short time span (pre=1984-88,

post=1989-94) were large. Unless the analysis is totally wrong, I cannot see how

that happened except that the vaccination campaign was effective. (Impact of

Antimeningococcal B vaccination in Cuba, Mem Inst Oswaldo Cruz, Rio de Janeiro,

Vol. 94, 1999)

 

A second more recent observational study (2005) concluded that meningitis cases

in Cuba were on the decline after massive immunisation campaigns since the late

80s and early 90s. There was an earlier " massive campaign " in 1979 that did not

have any real effects. (Bacterial meningitis in children and adolescents: an

observational study based on the national surveillance system, BMC, Infectious

Diseases, 2005, 5:103)

 

I think both sides raise good questions and issues, and I personally would like

to avoid throwing babies out with bath water. Apart from plain stupid things

like using mercury as a preservative and so on, I believe we might keep in mind

that the vaccination debacle may be more about the complexity of health and

disease meeting an obsessively linear intervention. Vaccination likely has it

uses, and yet, like much of modern medicine, is used in a brute, short-sighted,

and one-dimensional manner..

 

I know, Mike, that you are questioning whether polio vaccination has done

anything, but what accounts for a nearly 60% decline of polio cases in China in

2 years (1989-1991)? I am sure that the polio vaccine has behaved differently in

different parts of the world, and I find it entirely believable that certain

areas of the world were experiencing a decline in polio cases before vaccination

started. After all, it is basic CM that there are many things that make a human

being susceptible to the penetration of a microbe to deep levels, such as

stress, climactic environs, adequate food, age and so on. Sheltering, feeding

and nurturing peope is likely to decrease the incidence and mortality of any

disease. Vaccination may be helpful in decreasing incidence and mortality in

some situations where adequate food and shelter are not easily available, for

instance.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'd like to finish off by saying that I am not a representative of the western

medical-industrial complex counterculture. I am a junior representative of a

lineage CM tradition.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I didn't know that some vaccine companies were getting away with having

unlabeled mercury in the vaccines.

I wonder if they are tested by batch? and by whom? Is this an isolated

case or wide-spread?

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:58 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

 

>

> John,

> We seem to have a belief that if they tell us that it is not in there

> anymore, then it must be true. I wish that was the case as there would be a

> lot fewer damaged children.

> First, long after the vaccine manufacturers told us they stopped using

> mercury in their vaccines, it was still on the vaccine labels, so we must

> assume it was in there.

> Second, when I attended Dr. Geier's lecture, he mentioned that he had many

> such vaccines tested for contents and found that even without the mention of

> mercury on their label, as mandated by the FDA, mercury was still present.

> The truth in labeling law violation should have us all mad.

> Third, a number of the vaccines you mention, still are used on children and

> still have mercury.

> Fourth, no amount of mercury has been found to be safe according to OSHA.

> It is a neurotoxin of the highest order and this point should be stressed

> with all parents of small children.

> The immune system is not just about reactions to microbes and chemicals but

> also must be created and thus it needs nourishment to produce. I see a lot

> of people with immunity issues and use Kiiko Matsumoto's treatment ideas (or

> rather her teacher Nagano)to help them. I found it necessary to not

> underestimate the influence of the immune system and yes it can be treated

> with acupuncture and moxibustion.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > johnkokko

> > Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:31 -0700

> > Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

> >

> > Mike,

> > I read this article:

> >

>

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/An%20Assessment%20of%20the%20Impact%20of%2\

0Thimerosal%20on%20Childhood%20Neurodevelopmental%20Disorders.pdf

> >

> > It made me think of the compounded methylmercury intravenously shot into

> > babies when

> > thiomersal was still in vaccines... but for the most part that wouldn't

> be

> > a large consideration today,

> > since...

> >

> > " In the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries,

> > thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood

> vaccination

> > schedules <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule>.

> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-drugsaf-0>In the

> U.S.,

> > the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are

> > some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older

> > than two years.

> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-4>Several vaccines

> > that are not routinely recommended for young children do

> > contain thiomersal, including DT

> > (diphtheria<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria>and

> > tetanus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus>), Td (tetanus and

> > diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace

> of

> > thiomersal from steps in manufacture. "

> >

> > Just because thiomersal is not in the vaccines, doesn't mean that people

> > should be less cautious.

> > That was the biggest argument from our first pediatrician.... " there

> were

> > some complications before with mercury and vaccines and whole cell

> pertussis

> > etc... but those have been remedied (sic).. "

> >

> > 1. ^ *a* <

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-0> *

> > b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-1>

> Bigham

> > M, Copes R (2005). " Thiomersal in vaccines: balancing the risk of

> adverse

> > effects with the risk of vaccine-preventable disease " . *Drug Saf*

> > *28*(2): 89–101.

> > doi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>:

> > 10.2165/00002018-200528020-00001<

> http://dx.doi.org/10.2165%2F00002018-200528020-00001>.

> > PMID 15691220 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15691220>.

> > 2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-1>*

> " Thimerosal

> > in Vaccines: Frequently Asked

> > Questions " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm>.

> > Food and Drug

> > Administration<

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration_%28United_States%29

> >.

> > http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm. Retrieved on 2008-03-09.

> > 3. ^ *a*<

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-0>

> > *b* <

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-1>

> > *c* <

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-2>

> > *d* <

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-3>

> > " Thimerosal

> > in vaccines " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm>. Center

> for

> > Biologics Evaluation and Research, U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

> > 2008 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008>-06-03<

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_3>.

> > http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on

> 2008-07-25.

> > 4. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-0>

> > *b*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-1>

> > *c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-2>

> > *d*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-3>

> > *e* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-4>

> > *f*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-5>

> > *g* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-6>

> Baker JP

> > (2008). " Mercury, vaccines, and autism: one controversy, three

> histories " .

> > *Am J Public Health* *98* (2): 244–53.

> > doi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>

> > :10.2105/AJPH.2007.113159 <

> http://dx.doi.org/10.2105%2FAJPH.2007.113159>.

> > PMID 18172138 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172138>.

> > 5. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-4>*

> Coordinating

> > Center for Infectious Diseases (2007-10-26). " Thimerosal in seasonal

> > influenza vaccine " <http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm>.

> Centers

> > for Disease Control and Prevention.

> > http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-04-02.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:14 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

> >wrote:

> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I would like to suggest some links for info about several vaccines

> and/or

> >> their constituents that have been studied.

> >>

> >> http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/mark-geier-research.htm

> >>

> >>

> http://fr.truveo.com/Dr-Mark-Geier-David-Geier-discuss-mercury/id/538123512

> >>

> >> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/encephalopathies.pdf

> >>

> >> I hope these are helpful. BTW, I attended a seminar by Dr. Geier and his

> >> son that really made sense about the autism issue. They found a

> connection

> >> with testosterone and mercury. Go figure.

> >> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >>

> >> Chinese Medicine

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> >> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

> >> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:57:20 -0700

> >> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

> >>

> >>

> >> Alon,

> >>

> >> The CDC has a few vaccination schedules up... you can count the number

> of

> >>

> >> vaccination shots

> >>

> >> and this isn't even all of them... there's also smallpox, anthrax, Lyme

> >>

> >> Disease, typhoid, rabies,

> >>

> >> Japanese encephalitis, shingles and yellow fever just in case you want

> to

> >>

> >> collect them all.

> >>

> >> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/vaccines-list.htm

> >>

> >> Dont' believe me....

> >>

> >> Here's a CDC recommended schedule:

> >>

> >>

> >>

>

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedu\

le_pr.pdf

> >>

> >> We did about six months of research before Bhakti was born, but still,

> more

> >>

> >> research needs to be done.

> >>

> >> As far as adverse reactions to vaccines, please read Randall

> Neustaedter's

> >>

> >> book,

> >>

> >> " the Vaccine Guide " , which has in-depth discussions of vaccine reactions

> >> for

> >>

> >> the following vaccines

> >>

> >> and 38 pages of medical journal references: pgs 297-335

> >>

> >> Varicella pgs 152-154

> >>

> >> Diphtheria pg. 158

> >>

> >> Hep A pgs 165-166

> >>

> >> Hep B pgs 173-178

> >>

> >> Lyme dz pgs 182-184

> >>

> >> Hib Meningitis pgs 191-193

> >>

> >> Meningococcal pgs 196

> >>

> >> Pneumococcal pg 199

> >>

> >> Mumps pgs 213-215

> >>

> >> Rubella pgs 218-221

> >>

> >> Pertussis pgs 226-233 (longest evidence of reactions)

> >>

> >> Polio 240-243

> >>

> >> Smallpox 251-253

> >>

> >> Tetanus 258-260 (generally safe)

> >>

> >> If you really want to read these, I can let you borrow the book.

> >>

> >> Otherwise, I don't believe in the mercury argument for all of the

> problems

> >>

> >> and I don't tell any parent to vaccinate or not vaccinate,

> >>

> >> but to become more educated about it all. Not vaccinating Bhakti was a

> >>

> >> personal decision

> >>

> >> and we're sticking by it. Tetanus vaccination seems safe in most regards

> >>

> >> and we will vaccinate for travel

> >>

> >> and for Hep in a few years. The other diseases can be treated with

> >>

> >> acupuncture, herbs and a week of rest.

> >>

> >> Best,

> >>

> >> K

> >>

> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

> >> wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Koko you make many statements regarding effects of vaccines for which i

> >>

> >>> would like to see supporting evidence.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

[Guest guest]

I have been educating myself about vaccination ever since my daughter was born

1.5 years ago. Prior to my own research, I pretty much approved of the status

quo... I had never heard of or come across anything that would question my

belief in the importance or validity of vaccinations. However, I will say that

after delving a little into this issue, I was shocked at some of the stuff I

found out. I have decided to delay vaccination for my daughter until two years

old, and then, only to selectively vaccinate her.

 

Here is just a brief synopsis of the stuff that I found out:

 

1) Most of the info that we have about vaccine effectiveness comes from study of

the population already having recieved it. In other words, only the newest

vaccines have undergone clinical, double blind, controlled trials. In effect,

our grandparents and parents were 'guinea pigs' so to speak for whether the

vaccines were effective.

 

2) Vaccination stimulates the immune system in a very different way than natural

infection. Some recent research has been done on the response of T cells post

vaccination, and found that one type of T cell was affected, versus in natural

infection where all types tended to respond.

 

3)There have been instances of vaccine induced injury as a direct result of

vaccination. For more info about this, look to the recent Hannah Poling Case,

or another simply horrific case in Australia (google Dr Kalokerinos). I

personally, have never had a health professional of any kind inform me of the

possible risks of vaccines prior to getting vaccinated, and I strongly believe

that there is a concensus among the medical community that any info that

presents vaccines in a negative light might reduce the vaccination rates. Every

year, injuries due to vaccination are reported to a government agency

http://vaers.hhp.org

 

4) Rates of disease are higher in poor countries with less sanitation and less

access to good nutrition, regardless of vaccination rates. Rates of disease had

already begun to decline BEFORE the introduction of vaccines in western and

industrialized countries in the last century due to better sanitation,

nutrition, and health care advaces.

 

In conclusion, I want to say that although I am not specifically 'ANTI' vaccine,

I do believe that there is cause for some concern, have experienced being

treated like a villain by my first pediatrician simply for questioning the

practice, as well as having my posts denied on a parenting listserve because of

my personal beliefs. I believe that the most important thing should be

continual improvement in our health care system, preventing injury to

susceptible individuals, and and having transparency with regards to risks, and

the organizations profitting from these drugs.

 

Here are some good resources to check out if you want to know more:

 

Direct from the horses mouth: the CDC. Ingredients

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

 

Vaccine activism. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he does present a

lot of information that you won't find out about otherwise

http://garynull.com

 

Books from reputable sources that discuss the issue:

http://homepage.mac.com/loughbunny/nmw/vaccbook.html

 

Marie Sepich LAc (CA and NY)

[Guest guest]

Yes.. the main thing is that we need to get educated about our options.

That's why educated people statistically vaccinate less than those who are

uneducated

about the benefit vs risks ratio.

 

Do pediatricians have a financial agenda as well as a medical one for you to

vaccinate?

 

One of my favorite TV shows was canned... Eli Stone (the one with the

acupuncturist in SF)

why? poor ratings?

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2008/01/pediatricians_c.html

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 7:21 AM, shamanist1 <shamanist1 wrote:

 

>

>

> I have been educating myself about vaccination ever since my daughter was

> born 1.5 years ago. Prior to my own research, I pretty much approved of the

> status quo... I had never heard of or come across anything that would

> question my belief in the importance or validity of vaccinations. However, I

> will say that after delving a little into this issue, I was shocked at some

> of the stuff I found out. I have decided to delay vaccination for my

> daughter until two years old, and then, only to selectively vaccinate her.

>

> Here is just a brief synopsis of the stuff that I found out:

>

> 1) Most of the info that we have about vaccine effectiveness comes from

> study of the population already having recieved it. In other words, only the

> newest vaccines have undergone clinical, double blind, controlled trials. In

> effect, our grandparents and parents were 'guinea pigs' so to speak for

> whether the vaccines were effective.

>

> 2) Vaccination stimulates the immune system in a very different way than

> natural infection. Some recent research has been done on the response of T

> cells post vaccination, and found that one type of T cell was affected,

> versus in natural infection where all types tended to respond.

>

> 3)There have been instances of vaccine induced injury as a direct result of

> vaccination. For more info about this, look to the recent Hannah Poling

> Case, or another simply horrific case in Australia (google Dr Kalokerinos).

> I personally, have never had a health professional of any kind inform me of

> the possible risks of vaccines prior to getting vaccinated, and I strongly

> believe that there is a concensus among the medical community that any info

> that presents vaccines in a negative light might reduce the vaccination

> rates. Every year, injuries due to vaccination are reported to a government

> agency http://vaers.hhp.org

>

> 4) Rates of disease are higher in poor countries with less sanitation and

> less access to good nutrition, regardless of vaccination rates. Rates of

> disease had already begun to decline BEFORE the introduction of vaccines in

> western and industrialized countries in the last century due to better

> sanitation, nutrition, and health care advaces.

>

> In conclusion, I want to say that although I am not specifically 'ANTI'

> vaccine, I do believe that there is cause for some concern, have experienced

> being treated like a villain by my first pediatrician simply for questioning

> the practice, as well as having my posts denied on a parenting listserve

> because of my personal beliefs. I believe that the most important thing

> should be continual improvement in our health care system, preventing injury

> to susceptible individuals, and and having transparency with regards to

> risks, and the organizations profitting from these drugs.

>

> Here are some good resources to check out if you want to know more:

>

> Direct from the horses mouth: the CDC. Ingredients

> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

>

> Vaccine activism. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he does present

> a lot of information that you won't find out about otherwise

> http://garynull.com

>

> Books from reputable sources that discuss the issue:

> http://homepage.mac.com/loughbunny/nmw/vaccbook.html

>

> Marie Sepich LAc (CA and NY)

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You are correct in that fear mongering is a potent inducer for compliance

especailly when it comes from the Almighty in a white coat that has big degrees

posted on the wall, the only bigger crime than this is that the white coat is so

" assimilated " by those that run who and what is passed off as " medicine " in this

country. It is more than unethical.There is a very good resource 15 pages long

about the Mini Review of adverse events following vaccination. What I found on

the last 3 pages were the facts, the vaccine industry was starting to live the

heat of litigation following indetification of the " outing " of vaccine adverse

events and risk versus benefit, that the disease rate was higher in vaccinated

populations etcetcetc, the fact that it is our government.......that bears the

bulf of vaccine research financing and even the manufacture and dispersal, they

are concerned over " losing the vaccine industry " and so came up with there

" plan " to target new groups for injections.....like teeenagers, ala GARDASIL and

with hyped up bird flu swine flu vaccines. I learned the hard way, of what

happens to the innoculate following the vaccine administration is of no concern

now, now that they have written into lae full indemnification for the drug

companies. Look at Bioshield and see how they have managed to write into law the

forceable administration of " vaccines " for anything they can fear monger into

being for " Homeland Security "

 

 

 

There are tons of information about the two main sequences of vaccination in the

way of damage to the patient, NEUROLOGICAL and CARDIOVASCULAR. Plenty of others

exist but the bulk of adverse events fall into these categories. The main

protestor of Gardasil contracted TERMINAL CEREBRAL VASCULITIS following

administration of Gardasil, yes, they know, why else do you think they

prearranged full indemnification for the pharmaceutical companies? Look at the

laws that just the republican party over the last two Bush administrations did

to write pharmaceutical " get out of jail free cards " , including Eli Lilly for

the damage from thimerasol (mercury)....which they had been told in 1935 was not

even safe for DOGS>>>>>>>>>

 

If we as TCM practitioners understood the damage coming from vaccinations and

from drugs......for instance the administration of prednisone interrupts not

less than 200 enzymtic pathways, prozac will fry your brain it is essentially

flouride, for that matter most of the drugs are either flouride based or

aluminum based.....the doctors are not educated as to the really important way

to treat/prevent disease with nutrition......no that is what they SPECIFICALLY

are not taught.Codex will do what it has to do with keeping the herd away from

important nutraceuticals and vitamin supplements that would treat the very

diseases conferred upon them from the administration of vaccines. We do have

alot to learn, I DO NOT look to those whom benefit from our dis eased state to

learn the truth. there is not much money in helath, there are tons in disease

and cancer, the way you make that disease is you vaccinate and you deliver bad

foods, therefore Food and Drug Administration.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

lotuskarma

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 17:52:31 -0400

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello to all of you,

 

I am new to this group and was excited to join in time to read all of the

responses pertaining to this topic. I just have a small thing to say. I

have two children, 11 and 14 whom have never been vaccinated. My youngest

has epilepsy and brain damage from hypoglycemia shortly after he was born.

We were given a vaccine handbook when we were in the hospital with our son

and it clearly stated that children with CNS disorders were contraindicated

for vaccines. That didn't stop the doctors however from continually

demanding that we vaccinate our children. I have read a lot about vaccines

both pros and cons and expected such arguments from such a controversial

subject. What I have difficulty with is the fear factor that our doctors

tried to instill in us. There was no urging of us to educate ourselves of

our choice but a feeling that this was mandatory. This is what I feel is

very wrong. We are in a different era than when the vaccines were first

produced, mainly to put an end to epidemics brought about by poor sanitation

and ignorance. What I instill in my patients is that they have a choice.

And that we have the power to seek alternative means if we choose not to

vaccinate. My hats off to all of you who continue to seek the truth and to

empower our patients with it.

 

Anne Biris L.Ac

 

The Lotus Center

 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Patricia Jordan <

coastalcatclinic wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Also the part that koprowski plays in the fruad of science and the beLIEf

> that vaccines are effective. Koprowski was the Director of Wistar for 35

> years and was resonsible for the very detrimonious vaccine research, truth

> be known, Wistar was the forefront of this nations vaccine research and is

> now a NATIONAL CANCER CENTER........if you understand the REAL TRUTH, most

> of the integrity of that scam of his polio vaccine and the work done on

> vaccnating the areas in Africa that first broke with HIV with CHAT Wistar

> vaccines (polio contaminated with HIV), look into the work Koprowski has

> done in genetic engineering of rabies with cowpox and then without the

> consent of the Argentice Government had people drink milk from cows

> innoculated with his frankenstine vaccine.Koprowski is still being heralded

> despite his " termination " from Wistar following his escapades upon which he

> felt he had sovernity to experiment as he wished, look into the works of him

> and Schnell at Jefferson university where they have accomploished

> weaponizing the rabies virus.Koprowski was involved with Gallo and the very

> well footnoted and referenced of Ed hooper in the RIver is more accurate

> then you could ever expect vested interest to be.I know now enough history

> of the CDC from their very own pages of historical review to never trust

> anything coming from them all you have to do is FOLLOW THE MONEY, 30 pieces

> of silver and Dr. Paul Offit's agenda becomes clear.

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:29:13 -0700

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM. That's in EMERGING VIRUSES by Len Horowitz.

> He says that HIV was developed as a " soft kill " biological agent that would

>

> reduce populations slowly. He says Ebola was also developed as a bioweapon,

>

> but that it is not practical, because it kills too efficiently, not

> permitting itself a chance to spread.

> The SPECIAL VIRUS CANCER PROGRAM was developed by Nixon and Kissinger

> primarily for the African continent.

> Robert Gallo's own history of academic and scientific fraud is also

> noteworthy.

>

>

> -

> " Patricia Jordan "

<coastalcatclinic<coastalcatclinic%40hotmail.com>

> >

> " traditional chinese med " <

>

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> >

> Friday, April 24, 2009 3:00 PM

> RE: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> Well the HPV vaccine will not work and it will most likely result in

> fertility issues.

>

> you can not inject a vaccine and develop cell mediated immunity which is

> what you need for the HPV.

>

> But it deosn't stop pharmaceutical companies for putting out bad science

> and

> bad vaccines, the animals have a injectible herpes vaccine and it won't

> work, we have one that will that is drops to be applied to the mucous

> membranes of the cats eyes or nasal tissue, what happens if you inject

> herpes you actually REACTIVATE latent herpes, no benefit at all comes from

> not understanding the disease and the immune system. Gardasil has killed 28

>

> so far and delivered many with Gullian Barre so get in line, perhaps you

> can be one less.....

>

> HIV, Africa, you need to be brought into the circle of truth, HIV was an

> answer to the grants that paid for the development of a synthetic

> biological

> weapon that would destroy the human immune system. First place it was laced

>

> into polio vaccines delivered to areas of Africa were the first cases of

> HIV

> were found.......there are no coincidences in science.Read The River by Ed

> Hooper, 12 monkeys and the origin of Aids, Dro horowitz information adn the

>

> Special cancer project which when Congress wanted to know what was going

> on....had to go OUTSIDE our country for the copies of the records.We have

> been FOREVER experimenting on the third world countries, that is why we

> don't hear alot about the adverse effects of vaccines following

> administration and the New England journal of medicine just covered this

> problem, and the students of Harvard have just demanded a divorce of their

> instutuion from the pahrmacuetical industry, there is a reason. recently,

> they were so happy to announce they were finally able to get AIDS to infect

>

> a monkey.....do they think we are crazy? That was the smokescreen for where

>

> HIV came from in the first place OOOPPSSS again.Recently Dr. Gallo who was

> paid by our defense dept to find a synthetic biological agent to corrupt

> the

> human immune system, and credited with being the " discoverer of HIV " was

> panned by a group of scientists whol want retraction for Gallos work on HIV

>

> as they too know the real story of the origin of AIDS. Even gallo was

> spanked by the NIH and priviledges taken away from him with working on

> human

> subjects following the debacle with his vaccines he sent to Africa.Yes, the

>

> truthneeds to come out and go ahead get in line for the " bird Flu shot "

>

> Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net>

> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 10:34:51 -0700

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> I think the problem with the discussion is that it is a bit too random.

> Right after world war 2 there was a polio epidemic in Germany and I went to

>

> school with many crippled children who are probably today suffering from

> post polio symptom, I was immunized, and I am grateful that I was. Are we

> overdoing it a bit now with the vaccicines, maybe yes. It all depends. If

> there was a Hep B vaccine available, I think I would get it, if I had a

> daughter I would vaccine her against HPV. Sometimes vaccines offer

> protection, just think how many millions of people in Africa could be saved

>

> if we had a HIV vaccine. I think we need to think about this issue in a

> more

> differentiated way. It seems some people on this listserv have a soapbox

> they want to stand on, and that can get tiring for others.

>

> Regards,

> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net>

>

> www.InnerhealthSalem.com <http://www.innerhealthsalem.com/>

>

> Phone: 503 364 3022

> -

> Mark Milotay

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Friday, April 24, 2009 9:27 AM

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> As the ListMaster (is that like being the key master?) I whole

> heartedly approve the prolonged conversation on this, as it is

> relevant to us as practitioners, and as a parent of 2 ( & IY'H a third

> on the way) children who have not been vaccinated I find this

> discussion by my peers quite useful and fascinating. As practitioners

> we need to be able to provide our patients with all of the information

> possible when they are trying to make a decision about something like

> not vaccinating, and this discussion has already identified a number

> of good resources for this.

>

> Please, with my blessing, continue this discussion.

>

> - Mark

>

> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:59 AM,

<<%40tinet.ie>>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi All, & Patricia & Yehuda,

> >

> > This list may not be an appropriate forum for prolonged discussion on

> > the pros and cons of vaccination.

> >

> > We need guidance from the ListMaster on whether or not to continue

> > this thread here. Meanwhile, here are a few comments.

> >

> > 1. Our youngest daughter (a trainee surgeon with a brilliant truth-

> > seeking mind) with whom I had expressed reservations about the wisdom

> > of mass vaccination, texted me yesterday:

> >

> > " [Dad, re the pros and cons of vaccination] ... in the past two

> > weeks, I have admitted 3 cases of severe mumps in non-immunised men.

> > Case #1is in ICU, brain-dead due to mumps encephalitis;

> > Case #2 lost both testicles due to mumps orchitis;

> > Case #3 is very ill with mumps pancreatitis ... "

> >

> > Like most young doctors and vets whom I know, my daughter has no

> > doubt that the benefits of vaccination against serious diseases

> > outweigh the risks of not vaccinating. However, she is not an expert

> > immunologist, so SHE TRUSTS the conclusions of her teachers / peers.

> >

> > 2. DE FACTO, the vaccine industry (manufacturers, wholesalers and

> > retailers) and those who administer vaccines (doctors, nurses,

> > healthcare workers, vets, vet techs, etc) have a vested financial

> > interest in promoting vaccination. Without vaccination, they would

> > lose turnover / income.

> >

> > However, IMO, most vaccinators are not evil people in a diabolical

> > conspiracy to corrupt the human or animal genomes. Neither are they

> > stupid people. They BELIEVE that vaccines confer more benefit than

> > harm to the recipients.

> >

> > 3. Professionals' beliefs and practices arise mainly from their

> > culture, professional training, interaction with peers, practical

> > experience and brainwashing (commercial brochures, seminars, courses,

> > etc).

> >

> > We (busy practitioners) simply have not the time to research in depth

> > the pros and cons of every action that we take. Therefore, MUCH of

> > what we do is because we have been trained to do it, or we rely

> > heavily on / TRUST the advice of peers / authorities whom we trust.

> >

> > We TRUST our pastors / rabbis; we trust our Governments; we trust our

> > academics / National Health Authorities, WHO, national Banks, etc.

> >

> > For me, the main question is: are we RIGHT to place our trust in

> > those authorities?

> >

> > It is obvious from recent international scandals that INDIVIDUALS in

> > the Churches, national Governments, Banks, etc criminally betrayed

> > our trust. Can we trust ANY authority now?

> >

> > 4. Some opponents of mass vaccination, especially with simultaneous

> > use of multi-antigens, say that there is no (or inadequate) proof of

> > safety and / or efficacy.

> >

> > Having worked as a professional researcher for >41 years, my

> > experience is that the vast majority of my research colleagues are

> > decent and intelligent people who seek the truth in their areas of

> > expertise.

> >

> > Though I am not expert in immunology, thousands of highly trained

> > people work to the best of their professional ability in that

> > specialised area. Medline has many papers on the safety and efficacy

> > of vaccines. Unless the authors of those papers are liars or stupid,

> > THEY believe their conclusions.

> >

> > But safety and efficacy are relative terms.

> >

> > What is safe? For example, is it safe if 1 vaccinee per 100,000 dies?

> > Is it safe if 1 in 1000 develops cancer or autoimmune disease. Were

> > the deaths / diseases in vaccinees due to the vaccine, or due to

> > coincidental factors?

> >

> > For how many years must vaccinees be monitored BEFORE ANY conclusions

> > on safety can be drawn?

> >

> > What is the definition of efficacy? Should it be based on titers of

> > specific antibodies, or on the incidence rate of the specific disease

> > in the vaccinees versus a similar unvaccinated group over a

> > predetermined follow-up period (1 year?, 2 years? what?)

> >

> > For example [see abstract below]: The incidence of diarrhoea in the

> > group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%,

> > compared with 39.7% in the non-vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted

> > risk ratio 0.40). The first episode was significantly shorter in the

> > vaccinated group (mean 2.3 days) than in the non-vaccinated group

> > (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> >

> > Efficacy here was far short of 100%. But can we ever expect 100%

> > efficacy from anything?

> >

> > Whom am I to believe?

> >

> > Most, if not all, medical and surgical interventions carry some risk.

> > IMO, an impartial comment on the pros and cons of vaccination MUST

> > try to assess the risk-benefit of vaccinating versus not vaccinating.

> > Both options carry risks and benefits.

> >

> > We should aim to fulfil the principle of " the greatest good for the

> > greatest number " .

> >

> > Meanwhile, whom should I believe?

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> >

> > Torrell JM, Aumatell CM, Ramos SM, Mestre LG, Salas CM. Reduction of

> > travellers' diarrhoea by WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine in young, high-

> > risk travellers. Vaccine. 2009 Apr 16. [Epub ahead of print]. Intnl

> > Vaccination Center. Hospital Universitario de Bellvitge, Feixa Llarga

> > s/n 08907 Hospitalet. Barcelona, Spain. AIMS: A bidirectional cohort

> > study investigates whether pre-travel vaccination with whole

> > cell/recombinant B subunit inactivated, killed oral cholera vaccine

> > reduces the incidence of diarrhoea in young adult travellers to

> > highrisk areas. SCOPE: Risk of travellers' diarrhoea was assessed

> > according to destination and reason for travel in high risk

> > travellers of a travel clinic in Barcelona, Spain. Those at high-risk

> > between January and December 2005 were advised on water/food safety

> > and hygiene. High-risk travellers between January and December 2006

> > were additionally vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine. Data

> > regarding diarrhoea were gathered by structured telephone interview

> > or emailed questionnaire following the travellers' return. The

> > incidence of diarrhoea in the group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral

> > cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%, compared with 39.7% in the non-

> > vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted risk ratio 0.40). The first

> > episode was significantly shorter in the vaccinated group (mean 2.3

> > days) than in the non-vaccinated group (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> > CONCLUSIONS: The protective effect of the WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine

> > was 57% in the young, highrisk travellers. Vaccination with the

> > WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine as well as food safety and hygiene advice

> > could offer effective means of reducing the risk of diarrhoea while

> > abroad. PMID: 19376179 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike you are correct and what a line of legislation they have written into our

laws, all without any chance for discussion and taked onto things like the

Patriot Act FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF GETTING IT IN WITHOUT DISCUSSION....they

know EXACTLY what they are doing and I think more Inflammatory is why do they

have to stoop to this to get their agenda met......are they hiding something?

Are the drug companies hiding something when they fail to disclose the contents

of the vaccines saying it is " proprietary ingredients "

 

of course they are and we all need to be aware of this. I for one am embarrassed

that they have manipulated the doctors into minions and needle jockeys to

disperse this evil when most of the doctors thought they were in a healing

profession.

 

Just because someone likes biotechnology and the thrill of being able to direct

evolution and manipulate the worlds populations, races, etc, does not take away

our inate rights to allow them to do that.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

naturaldoc1

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 21:36:47 +0000

RE: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alon,

It is and maybe that is why they continue to fight so hard and even legislate no

lawsuits against them for adverse reactions. There was some recent language on

this that was included in the so-called " Patriot Bill " that prevents us from

seeking any legal retribution and they can even force us to have vaccinations.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

alonmarcus

Sat, 25 Apr 2009 08:55:46 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Mike

 

if this was true i would think it would be very easy money for anyone

 

suing the drug companies.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

 

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Marie, and greetings from California!  How's life in " The City? "

 

Why are you in such a hurry to vaccinate at age 2?   There is a dramatic

increase in immune functionality between the ages of 2 and 5.  Also, as

Genevieve mentioned, there is also the alternative of homeopathic

immunizations.  Use your daughter's early years to build her up through diet,

exercise, tuina, and herbs first. 

 

Your friend and classmate from DRU,   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Sun, 4/26/09, shamanist1 <shamanist1 wrote:

 

 

shamanist1 <shamanist1

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, April 26, 2009, 7:21 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been educating myself about vaccination ever since my daughter was born

1.5 years ago. Prior to my own research, I pretty much approved of the status

quo... I had never heard of or come across anything that would question my

belief in the importance or validity of vaccinations. However, I will say that

after delving a little into this issue, I was shocked at some of the stuff I

found out. I have decided to delay vaccination for my daughter until two years

old, and then, only to selectively vaccinate her.

 

Here is just a brief synopsis of the stuff that I found out:

 

1) Most of the info that we have about vaccine effectiveness comes from study of

the population already having recieved it. In other words, only the newest

vaccines have undergone clinical, double blind, controlled trials. In effect,

our grandparents and parents were 'guinea pigs' so to speak for whether the

vaccines were effective.

 

2) Vaccination stimulates the immune system in a very different way than natural

infection. Some recent research has been done on the response of T cells post

vaccination, and found that one type of T cell was affected, versus in natural

infection where all types tended to respond.

 

3)There have been instances of vaccine induced injury as a direct result of

vaccination. For more info about this, look to the recent Hannah Poling Case, or

another simply horrific case in Australia (google Dr Kalokerinos) . I

personally, have never had a health professional of any kind inform me of the

possible risks of vaccines prior to getting vaccinated, and I strongly believe

that there is a concensus among the medical community that any info that

presents vaccines in a negative light might reduce the vaccination rates. Every

year, injuries due to vaccination are reported to a government agency

http://vaers. hhp.org

 

4) Rates of disease are higher in poor countries with less sanitation and less

access to good nutrition, regardless of vaccination rates. Rates of disease had

already begun to decline BEFORE the introduction of vaccines in western and

industrialized countries in the last century due to better sanitation,

nutrition, and health care advaces.

 

In conclusion, I want to say that although I am not specifically 'ANTI' vaccine,

I do believe that there is cause for some concern, have experienced being

treated like a villain by my first pediatrician simply for questioning the

practice, as well as having my posts denied on a parenting listserve because of

my personal beliefs. I believe that the most important thing should be continual

improvement in our health care system, preventing injury to susceptible

individuals, and and having transparency with regards to risks, and the

organizations profitting from these drugs.

 

Here are some good resources to check out if you want to know more:

 

Direct from the horses mouth: the CDC. Ingredients

http://www.cdc. gov/vaccines/ vac-gen/additive s.htm

 

Vaccine activism. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he does present a

lot of information that you won't find out about otherwise

http://garynull. com

 

Books from reputable sources that discuss the issue:

http://homepage. mac.com/loughbun ny/nmw/vaccbook. html

 

Marie Sepich LAc (CA and NY)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You might want to look at this study,

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/baskin.pdf and notice that neurons are part

of our CNS and the area heavily hit by this offender.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

shamanist1

Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:21:43 +0000

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been educating myself about vaccination ever since my daughter was

born 1.5 years ago. Prior to my own research, I pretty much approved of the

status quo... I had never heard of or come across anything that would question

my belief in the importance or validity of vaccinations. However, I will say

that after delving a little into this issue, I was shocked at some of the stuff

I found out. I have decided to delay vaccination for my daughter until two

years old, and then, only to selectively vaccinate her.

 

 

 

Here is just a brief synopsis of the stuff that I found out:

 

 

 

1) Most of the info that we have about vaccine effectiveness comes from study of

the population already having recieved it. In other words, only the newest

vaccines have undergone clinical, double blind, controlled trials. In effect,

our grandparents and parents were 'guinea pigs' so to speak for whether the

vaccines were effective.

 

 

 

2) Vaccination stimulates the immune system in a very different way than natural

infection. Some recent research has been done on the response of T cells post

vaccination, and found that one type of T cell was affected, versus in natural

infection where all types tended to respond.

 

 

 

3)There have been instances of vaccine induced injury as a direct result of

vaccination. For more info about this, look to the recent Hannah Poling Case,

or another simply horrific case in Australia (google Dr Kalokerinos). I

personally, have never had a health professional of any kind inform me of the

possible risks of vaccines prior to getting vaccinated, and I strongly believe

that there is a concensus among the medical community that any info that

presents vaccines in a negative light might reduce the vaccination rates. Every

year, injuries due to vaccination are reported to a government agency

http://vaers.hhp.org

 

 

 

4) Rates of disease are higher in poor countries with less sanitation and less

access to good nutrition, regardless of vaccination rates. Rates of disease had

already begun to decline BEFORE the introduction of vaccines in western and

industrialized countries in the last century due to better sanitation,

nutrition, and health care advaces.

 

 

 

In conclusion, I want to say that although I am not specifically 'ANTI' vaccine,

I do believe that there is cause for some concern, have experienced being

treated like a villain by my first pediatrician simply for questioning the

practice, as well as having my posts denied on a parenting listserve because of

my personal beliefs. I believe that the most important thing should be

continual improvement in our health care system, preventing injury to

susceptible individuals, and and having transparency with regards to risks, and

the organizations profitting from these drugs.

 

 

 

Here are some good resources to check out if you want to know more:

 

 

 

Direct from the horses mouth: the CDC. Ingredients

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

 

 

 

Vaccine activism. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he does present a

lot of information that you won't find out about otherwise

 

http://garynull.com

 

 

 

Books from reputable sources that discuss the issue:

 

http://homepage.mac.com/loughbunny/nmw/vaccbook.html

 

 

 

Marie Sepich LAc (CA and NY)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail.

http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009

 

 

[Guest guest]

And so certainly you would do all the homework involved in understanding that

HERD IMMUNITY does not work, and that each dsease is different on if this

reasoning for jabbing everyone with chronic disease would establish a tight role

for miracles on a short term scale?

 

The chicken pox vaccine is only and soley for the economics of saving parents

from missing work taking care of a sick child, yet it not only denies the child

to fully come into his capable immune system through expression of the disease

fully, you also lose the second introduction older parents would recieve to

prevent immunity waning and later Shingles infection Ops, thats right they have

that covered by making a Shingle vaccine for older folks.....

 

Quarantine and decreasing social gatherings would be more effective along with

optimal nutrition, etcetc than shooting mercury up to the brain and along with

it who knows what else contaminants or deliberants protein sequences. if you

think the vaccines are safe, show me the data, and not from a profiteer. Herd

Immunity......like tha does anything but rise up more mutations of even stronger

strains.Herd Immunity was a concept that came up before mathematical models were

developed that proved quite a different scenario. All epidemics are now being

traced back to the very research and mad scientist manipulations of the

pathogens, the 1918 flu was AMERICAN MADE with swine thyphus vaccine materials

mixed with avian flu strains and then injected into our soldiers to carry around

the world in the war.Patient zero was a soldier in Kansas. calling it the

Spanish flu, a smoke screen, curious why our government would pay to resurect it

though just last year and prior to this new Swine flu outbreak in Mexico. For

economical understanding that our pharmacuetical compnies get futures and BIG

payments from the government to be working on this ridiculous attempt at

feigning health care, realize that the CDC gets its money from every vaccine

made, they own the patent, or steal the intellectual property from whomever they

wish, indidivudal states only get federal funds if they jab their children with

CDC recomendations and the same perverses the WHO......Bill gates paid his

penance with the Justice Dept for avoiding a monopoly charge by financing the

destruction of world health through funding the world vaccine program and then

what goes round comes round for the entire herd.Just up today, Baxter

international wants to get those mexico virus strain samples.....they want to

make us a vaccine.....if you haven't heard of the recent Baxter International

Disaster, don't be surprized it was only covered well in OTHER COUNTRIES.

Seriously learn to question everything you have been told about vaccines,

efficacy, and safety.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

turusachan

Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:59:34 -0700

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another thing to toss in the pot is the risk analysis for populations, the

public health issues. It's not just about personal choices, but what are the

risks to the population of these diseases? For instance, I might choose against

a vaccine for preventing cervical cancer for all the reasons stated so far, on a

personal level, and if I get cervical cancer I'm not putting my neighbors at

risk. A (effective) flu vaccine, on the other hand, could prevent whole

populations from getting ill. (and please, that was just the best global example

I could think of, I know we currently don't have such a thing)

karen

 

Karen R. Adams,

Lic Ac, Dipl Ac

25 - 27 Bank Row

Greenfield, MA 01301

413-768-8333

 

Do or do not.

There is no try.

 

Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

 

________________________________

" Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa

Chinese Medicine

Friday, April 24, 2009 4:03:02 PM

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Exactly, we need to make differentiated decisions, there is no polio in the US

right now, and if the vaccine is needed is questionable, and yes, there may be

risks to receiving the vaccine, however, that doesn't mean that vaccines are a

bad idea. It all depends, when? for whom? where do they live and travel? Are

they at risk for contracting the disease? How much risk is there?

I guess I don't understand why this issue is so charged with emotion? The

evidence about benefits and risks is controversial, yes.

 

Regards,

Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

 

angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net

 

www.InnerhealthSale m.com

 

Phone: 503 364 3022

-

Everett Churchill

 

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:21 PM

RE: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

Random? Are you kidding? That seems to be the very nature of discussion

groups! Maybe you mean " poorly focused " ?

 

I think a major point that Patricia brings up is one of withheld information

that prevents Joe-Schmoe Parent from making informed decisions regarding

this topic. The idea of whether to vaccinate or not is highly charged with

emotion, and while I am whole-heartedly invested in TCM I also realize that

the issue is more complicated than it may seem. I myself have seen enough

better science lately to justify dissuading most people away from

vaccinations than to encourage them. And that includes the polio example.

 

-Everett Churchill, L.Ac.

 

_____

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Angela

Pfaffenberger, PH.D.

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:35 PM

 

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

I think the problem with the discussion is that it is a bit too random.

Right after world war 2 there was a polio epidemic in Germany and I went to

school with many crippled children who are probably today suffering from

post polio symptom, I was immunized, and I am grateful that I was. Are we

overdoing it a bit now with the vaccicines, maybe yes. It all depends. If

there was a Hep B vaccine available, I think I would get it, if I had a

daughter I would vaccine her against HPV. Sometimes vaccines offer

protection, just think how many millions of people in Africa could be saved

if we had a HIV vaccine. I think we need to think about this issue in a more

differentiated way. It seems some people on this listserv have a soapbox

they want to stand on, and that can get tiring for others.

 

Regards,

Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

 

angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) <angelapfa% 40comcast. net> net

 

www.InnerhealthSale m.com

 

Phone: 503 364 3022

-

Mark Milotay

Traditional_ <Traditional _Chinese_ Medicine% 40. com>

Chinese_Medicine

Friday, April 24, 2009 9:27 AM

Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

 

As the ListMaster (is that like being the key master?) I whole

heartedly approve the prolonged conversation on this, as it is

relevant to us as practitioners, and as a parent of 2 ( & IY'H a third

on the way) children who have not been vaccinated I find this

discussion by my peers quite useful and fascinating. As practitioners

we need to be able to provide our patients with all of the information

possible when they are trying to make a decision about something like

not vaccinating, and this discussion has already identified a number

of good resources for this.

 

Please, with my blessing, continue this discussion.

 

- Mark

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 6:59 AM, <@ tinet.

<% 40tinet.ie> ie> wrote:

>

>

> Hi All, & Patricia & Yehuda,

>

> This list may not be an appropriate forum for prolonged discussion on

> the pros and cons of vaccination.

>

> We need guidance from the ListMaster on whether or not to continue

> this thread here. Meanwhile, here are a few comments.

>

> 1. Our youngest daughter (a trainee surgeon with a brilliant truth-

> seeking mind) with whom I had expressed reservations about the wisdom

> of mass vaccination, texted me yesterday:

>

> " [Dad, re the pros and cons of vaccination] ... in the past two

> weeks, I have admitted 3 cases of severe mumps in non-immunised men.

> Case #1is in ICU, brain-dead due to mumps encephalitis;

> Case #2 lost both testicles due to mumps orchitis;

> Case #3 is very ill with mumps pancreatitis ... "

>

> Like most young doctors and vets whom I know, my daughter has no

> doubt that the benefits of vaccination against serious diseases

> outweigh the risks of not vaccinating. However, she is not an expert

> immunologist, so SHE TRUSTS the conclusions of her teachers / peers.

>

> 2. DE FACTO, the vaccine industry (manufacturers, wholesalers and

> retailers) and those who administer vaccines (doctors, nurses,

> healthcare workers, vets, vet techs, etc) have a vested financial

> interest in promoting vaccination. Without vaccination, they would

> lose turnover / income.

>

> However, IMO, most vaccinators are not evil people in a diabolical

> conspiracy to corrupt the human or animal genomes. Neither are they

> stupid people. They BELIEVE that vaccines confer more benefit than

> harm to the recipients.

>

> 3. Professionals' beliefs and practices arise mainly from their

> culture, professional training, interaction with peers, practical

> experience and brainwashing (commercial brochures, seminars, courses,

> etc).

>

> We (busy practitioners) simply have not the time to research in depth

> the pros and cons of every action that we take. Therefore, MUCH of

> what we do is because we have been trained to do it, or we rely

> heavily on / TRUST the advice of peers / authorities whom we trust.

>

> We TRUST our pastors / rabbis; we trust our Governments; we trust our

> academics / National Health Authorities, WHO, national Banks, etc.

>

> For me, the main question is: are we RIGHT to place our trust in

> those authorities?

>

> It is obvious from recent international scandals that INDIVIDUALS in

> the Churches, national Governments, Banks, etc criminally betrayed

> our trust. Can we trust ANY authority now?

>

> 4. Some opponents of mass vaccination, especially with simultaneous

> use of multi-antigens, say that there is no (or inadequate) proof of

> safety and / or efficacy.

>

> Having worked as a professional researcher for >41 years, my

> experience is that the vast majority of my research colleagues are

> decent and intelligent people who seek the truth in their areas of

> expertise.

>

> Though I am not expert in immunology, thousands of highly trained

> people work to the best of their professional ability in that

> specialised area. Medline has many papers on the safety and efficacy

> of vaccines. Unless the authors of those papers are liars or stupid,

> THEY believe their conclusions.

>

> But safety and efficacy are relative terms.

>

> What is safe? For example, is it safe if 1 vaccinee per 100,000 dies?

> Is it safe if 1 in 1000 develops cancer or autoimmune disease. Were

> the deaths / diseases in vaccinees due to the vaccine, or due to

> coincidental factors?

>

> For how many years must vaccinees be monitored BEFORE ANY conclusions

> on safety can be drawn?

>

> What is the definition of efficacy? Should it be based on titers of

> specific antibodies, or on the incidence rate of the specific disease

> in the vaccinees versus a similar unvaccinated group over a

> predetermined follow-up period (1 year?, 2 years? what?)

>

> For example [see abstract below]: The incidence of diarrhoea in the

> group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%,

> compared with 39.7% in the non-vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted

> risk ratio 0.40). The first episode was significantly shorter in the

> vaccinated group (mean 2.3 days) than in the non-vaccinated group

> (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

>

> Efficacy here was far short of 100%. But can we ever expect 100%

> efficacy from anything?

>

> Whom am I to believe?

>

> Most, if not all, medical and surgical interventions carry some risk.

> IMO, an impartial comment on the pros and cons of vaccination MUST

> try to assess the risk-benefit of vaccinating versus not vaccinating.

> Both options carry risks and benefits.

>

> We should aim to fulfil the principle of " the greatest good for the

> greatest number " .

>

> Meanwhile, whom should I believe?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

> Torrell JM, Aumatell CM, Ramos SM, Mestre LG, Salas CM. Reduction of

> travellers' diarrhoea by WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine in young, high-

> risk travellers. Vaccine. 2009 Apr 16. [Epub ahead of print]. Intnl

> Vaccination Center. Hospital Universitario de Bellvitge, Feixa Llarga

> s/n 08907 Hospitalet. Barcelona, Spain. AIMS: A bidirectional cohort

> study investigates whether pre-travel vaccination with whole

> cell/recombinant B subunit inactivated, killed oral cholera vaccine

> reduces the incidence of diarrhoea in young adult travellers to

> highrisk areas. SCOPE: Risk of travellers' diarrhoea was assessed

> according to destination and reason for travel in high risk

> travellers of a travel clinic in Barcelona, Spain. Those at high-risk

> between January and December 2005 were advised on water/food safety

> and hygiene. High-risk travellers between January and December 2006

> were additionally vaccinated with WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine. Data

> regarding diarrhoea were gathered by structured telephone interview

> or emailed questionnaire following the travellers' return. The

> incidence of diarrhoea in the group vaccinated with WC/rBS oral

> cholera vaccine (n=321) was 17.4%, compared with 39.7% in the non-

> vaccinated group (n=337) (adjusted risk ratio 0.40). The first

> episode was significantly shorter in the vaccinated group (mean 2.3

> days) than in the non-vaccinated group (mean 3.8 days) (p<0.001).

> CONCLUSIONS: The protective effect of the WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine

> was 57% in the young, highrisk travellers. Vaccination with the

> WC/rBS oral cholera vaccine as well as food safety and hygiene advice

> could offer effective means of reducing the risk of diarrhoea while

> abroad. PMID: 19376179 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

John,

I am afraid that I have seen photos of the vaccine packaging from several

different mfg since 2001. I cannot tell you whether or not it is widespread

but logically it would make sense. I believe that all drugs are batch tested.

Maybe someone else can respond to that point. I am grateful for our moderator

allowing us to each learn more about this issue as it directly affects us and

our patients health. We need to become more knowledgeable about this issue so

that we can educate our patients.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:07:47 -0700

> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

> Mike,

> I didn't know that some vaccine companies were getting away with having

> unlabeled mercury in the vaccines.

> I wonder if they are tested by batch? and by whom? Is this an isolated

> case or wide-spread?

>

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 5:58 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote:

>

>>

>> John,

>> We seem to have a belief that if they tell us that it is not in there

>> anymore, then it must be true. I wish that was the case as there would be a

>> lot fewer damaged children.

>> First, long after the vaccine manufacturers told us they stopped using

>> mercury in their vaccines, it was still on the vaccine labels, so we must

>> assume it was in there.

>> Second, when I attended Dr. Geier's lecture, he mentioned that he had many

>> such vaccines tested for contents and found that even without the mention of

>> mercury on their label, as mandated by the FDA, mercury was still present.

>> The truth in labeling law violation should have us all mad.

>> Third, a number of the vaccines you mention, still are used on children and

>> still have mercury.

>> Fourth, no amount of mercury has been found to be safe according to OSHA.

>> It is a neurotoxin of the highest order and this point should be stressed

>> with all parents of small children.

>> The immune system is not just about reactions to microbes and chemicals but

>> also must be created and thus it needs nourishment to produce. I see a lot

>> of people with immunity issues and use Kiiko Matsumoto's treatment ideas (or

>> rather her teacher Nagano)to help them. I found it necessary to not

>> underestimate the influence of the immune system and yes it can be treated

>> with acupuncture and moxibustion.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>

>>> Chinese Medicine

>>> johnkokko

>>> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:02:31 -0700

>>> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>>>

>>> Mike,

>>> I read this article:

>>>

>>

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/An%20Assessment%20of%20the%20Impact%20of%2\

0Thimerosal%20on%20Childhood%20Neurodevelopmental%20Disorders.pdf

>>>

>>> It made me think of the compounded methylmercury intravenously shot into

>>> babies when

>>> thiomersal was still in vaccines... but for the most part that wouldn't

>> be

>>> a large consideration today,

>>> since...

>>>

>>> " In the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries,

>>> thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative in routine childhood

>> vaccination

>>> schedules <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_schedule>.

>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-drugsaf-0>In the

>> U.S.,

>>> the only exceptions among vaccines routinely recommended for children are

>>> some formulations of the inactivated influenza vaccine for children older

>>> than two years.

>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_note-4>Several vaccines

>>> that are not routinely recommended for young children do

>>> contain thiomersal, including DT

>>> (diphtheria<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria>and

>>> tetanus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus>), Td (tetanus and

>>> diphtheria), and TT (tetanus toxoid); other vaccines may contain a trace

>> of

>>> thiomersal from steps in manufacture. "

>>>

>>> Just because thiomersal is not in the vaccines, doesn't mean that people

>>> should be less cautious.

>>> That was the biggest argument from our first pediatrician.... " there

>> were

>>> some complications before with mercury and vaccines and whole cell

>> pertussis

>>> etc... but those have been remedied (sic).. "

>>>

>>> 1. ^ *a* <

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-0> *

>>> b* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-drugsaf_0-1>

>> Bigham

>>> M, Copes R (2005). " Thiomersal in vaccines: balancing the risk of

>> adverse

>>> effects with the risk of vaccine-preventable disease " . *Drug Saf*

>>> *28*(2): 89?01.

>>> doi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>:

>>> 10.2165/00002018-200528020-00001<

>> http://dx.doi.org/10.2165%2F00002018-200528020-00001>.

>>> PMID 15691220 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15691220>.

>>> 2. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-1>*

>> " Thimerosal

>>> in Vaccines: Frequently Asked

>>> Questions " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm>.

>>> Food and Drug

>>> Administration<

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration_%28United_States%29

>>>.

>>> http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm. Retrieved on 2008-03-09.

>>> 3. ^ *a*<

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-0>

>>> *b* <

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-1>

>>> *c* <

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-2>

>>> *d* <

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-T-in-vaccines_2-3>

>>> " Thimerosal

>>> in vaccines " <http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm>. Center

>> for

>>> Biologics Evaluation and Research, U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

>>> 2008 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008>-06-03<

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_3>.

>>> http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on

>> 2008-07-25.

>>> 4. ^ *a* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-0>

>>> *b*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-1>

>>> *c* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-2>

>>> *d*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-3>

>>> *e* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-4>

>>> *f*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-5>

>>> *g* <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-Baker_3-6>

>> Baker JP

>>> (2008). " Mercury, vaccines, and autism: one controversy, three

>> histories " .

>>> *Am J Public Health* *98* (2): 244?3.

>>> doi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier>

>>> :10.2105/AJPH.2007.113159 <

>> http://dx.doi.org/10.2105%2FAJPH.2007.113159>.

>>> PMID 18172138 <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172138>.

>>> 5. *^ <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal#cite_ref-4>*

>> Coordinating

>>> Center for Infectious Diseases (2007-10-26). " Thimerosal in seasonal

>>> influenza vaccine " <http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm>.

>> Centers

>>> for Disease Control and Prevention.

>>> http://cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm. Retrieved on 2008-04-02.

>>>

>>> K

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 8:14 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

>>>wrote:

>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I would like to suggest some links for info about several vaccines

>> and/or

>>>> their constituents that have been studied.

>>>>

>>>> http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/mark-geier-research.htm

>>>>

>>>>

>> http://fr.truveo.com/Dr-Mark-Geier-David-Geier-discuss-mercury/id/538123512

>>>>

>>>> http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/encephalopathies.pdf

>>>>

>>>> I hope these are helpful. BTW, I attended a seminar by Dr. Geier and his

>>>> son that really made sense about the autism issue. They found a

>> connection

>>>> with testosterone and mercury. Go figure.

>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>

>>>> Chinese Medicine

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>>>> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>

>>>> Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:57:20 -0700

>>>> Re: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Alon,

>>>>

>>>> The CDC has a few vaccination schedules up... you can count the number

>> of

>>>>

>>>> vaccination shots

>>>>

>>>> and this isn't even all of them... there's also smallpox, anthrax, Lyme

>>>>

>>>> Disease, typhoid, rabies,

>>>>

>>>> Japanese encephalitis, shingles and yellow fever just in case you want

>> to

>>>>

>>>> collect them all.

>>>>

>>>> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/vaccines-list.htm

>>>>

>>>> Dont' believe me....

>>>>

>>>> Here's a CDC recommended schedule:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2009/09_0-6yrs_schedu\

le_pr.pdf

>>>>

>>>> We did about six months of research before Bhakti was born, but still,

>> more

>>>>

>>>> research needs to be done.

>>>>

>>>> As far as adverse reactions to vaccines, please read Randall

>> Neustaedter's

>>>>

>>>> book,

>>>>

>>>> " the Vaccine Guide " , which has in-depth discussions of vaccine reactions

>>>> for

>>>>

>>>> the following vaccines

>>>>

>>>> and 38 pages of medical journal references: pgs 297-335

>>>>

>>>> Varicella pgs 152-154

>>>>

>>>> Diphtheria pg. 158

>>>>

>>>> Hep A pgs 165-166

>>>>

>>>> Hep B pgs 173-178

>>>>

>>>> Lyme dz pgs 182-184

>>>>

>>>> Hib Meningitis pgs 191-193

>>>>

>>>> Meningococcal pgs 196

>>>>

>>>> Pneumococcal pg 199

>>>>

>>>> Mumps pgs 213-215

>>>>

>>>> Rubella pgs 218-221

>>>>

>>>> Pertussis pgs 226-233 (longest evidence of reactions)

>>>>

>>>> Polio 240-243

>>>>

>>>> Smallpox 251-253

>>>>

>>>> Tetanus 258-260 (generally safe)

>>>>

>>>> If you really want to read these, I can let you borrow the book.

>>>>

>>>> Otherwise, I don't believe in the mercury argument for all of the

>> problems

>>>>

>>>> and I don't tell any parent to vaccinate or not vaccinate,

>>>>

>>>> but to become more educated about it all. Not vaccinating Bhakti was a

>>>>

>>>> personal decision

>>>>

>>>> and we're sticking by it. Tetanus vaccination seems safe in most regards

>>>>

>>>> and we will vaccinate for travel

>>>>

>>>> and for Hep in a few years. The other diseases can be treated with

>>>>

>>>> acupuncture, herbs and a week of rest.

>>>>

>>>> Best,

>>>>

>>>> K

>>>>

>>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

>> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> Koko you make many statements regarding effects of vaccines for which i

>>>>

>>>>> would like to see supporting evidence.

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Great Mike! and if you would like, I have 250 GB of info on the damage of

vaccines to the mammalian body, well also to the other animals, once we started

industrial farming of any of the fish(trout, cod, salmon, eels ayu,), they got

sick, so what was the answer.....VACCINATE! now we are producing salmon with

autoimmune disease. Really we have to see that the vaccines are not the way to

construct health they de construct health, and in so many ways.We have to stop

vaccinating everything and that concerns me as we have such corrupted immune

systems, will the dysfunctioning systems even be able to be detoxed and

withstand nutrigeonomics to correct our disease, support with TCM, Homeopathy

are the correct paths to healing.

 

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

 

 

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:54:24 +0000

> RE: Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

>

> You might want to look at this study,

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/baskin.pdf and notice that neurons are part

of our CNS and the area heavily hit by this offender.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> shamanist1

> Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:21:43 +0000

> Re: Vaccination - Whom can we trust?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

I have been educating myself about vaccination ever since my daughter was born

1.5 years ago. Prior to my own research, I pretty much approved of the status

quo... I had never heard of or come across anything that would question my

belief in the importance or validity of vaccinations. However, I will say that

after delving a little into this issue, I was shocked at some of the stuff I

found out. I have decided to delay vaccination for my daughter until two years

old, and then, only to selectively vaccinate her.

>

>

>

> Here is just a brief synopsis of the stuff that I found out:

>

>

>

> 1) Most of the info that we have about vaccine effectiveness comes from study

of the population already having recieved it. In other words, only the newest

vaccines have undergone clinical, double blind, controlled trials. In effect,

our grandparents and parents were 'guinea pigs' so to speak for whether the

vaccines were effective.

>

>

>

> 2) Vaccination stimulates the immune system in a very different way than

natural infection. Some recent research has been done on the response of T cells

post vaccination, and found that one type of T cell was affected, versus in

natural infection where all types tended to respond.

>

>

>

> 3)There have been instances of vaccine induced injury as a direct result of

vaccination. For more info about this, look to the recent Hannah Poling Case, or

another simply horrific case in Australia (google Dr Kalokerinos). I personally,

have never had a health professional of any kind inform me of the possible risks

of vaccines prior to getting vaccinated, and I strongly believe that there is a

concensus among the medical community that any info that presents vaccines in a

negative light might reduce the vaccination rates. Every year, injuries due to

vaccination are reported to a government agency http://vaers.hhp.org

>

>

>

> 4) Rates of disease are higher in poor countries with less sanitation and less

access to good nutrition, regardless of vaccination rates. Rates of disease had

already begun to decline BEFORE the introduction of vaccines in western and

industrialized countries in the last century due to better sanitation,

nutrition, and health care advaces.

>

>

>

> In conclusion, I want to say that although I am not specifically 'ANTI'

vaccine, I do believe that there is cause for some concern, have experienced

being treated like a villain by my first pediatrician simply for questioning the

practice, as well as having my posts denied on a parenting listserve because of

my personal beliefs. I believe that the most important thing should be continual

improvement in our health care system, preventing injury to susceptible

individuals, and and having transparency with regards to risks, and the

organizations profitting from these drugs.

>

>

>

> Here are some good resources to check out if you want to know more:

>

>

>

> Direct from the horses mouth: the CDC. Ingredients

>

> http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

>

>

>

> Vaccine activism. He's a little over the top sometimes, but he does present a

lot of information that you won't find out about otherwise

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> http://garynull.com

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> Books from reputable sources that discuss the issue:

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> http://homepage.mac.com/loughbunny/nmw/vaccbook.html

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>

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> Marie Sepich LAc (CA and NY)

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_______________

> Windows Live™ Hotmail®:…more than just e-mail.

> http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_more_042009

>

>