Salary For A Hired Acu?

[Guest guest]

Where are you located at?

 

 

 

Dan Clark

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

don83407

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for 3-4

months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be. Someone

hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We

will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with an MD,

and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They would have a

minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new location, then

they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

their salary.

 

I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

 

Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

ykcul_ritsym

Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring in.

 

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

 

Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little about

this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are real

and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K a

year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

 

Dr. Don Snow

 

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

 

Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

Don,

 

$200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

 

I have a couple friends who are doing that.

 

I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

 

Best,

 

Kokko

 

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

 

magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

 

>

 

>

 

> -

 

> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> >

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

 

>

 

> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

 

> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

 

> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

 

> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

 

>

 

> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

 

> wrote:

 

> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

 

>

 

> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

 

> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

 

> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

 

> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

 

>

 

> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

 

>

 

> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

 

> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

 

> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

 

> inch needles.

 

>

 

> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

 

> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

 

> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

 

> for most of what I do.

 

>

 

> Hope this helps,

 

>

 

> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ykcul_ritsym@

 

>

 

> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

 

>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

 

>

 

> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

 

>

 

> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

 

> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

 

> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

 

> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

 

> I

 

> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

 

> and

 

> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

 

>

 

> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

 

>

 

> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

 

> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

 

> Still,

 

> it would make things grow.

 

>

 

> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

 

> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

 

> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

 

>

 

> hurting the field as a whole.

 

>

 

> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

>

 

> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

 

>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

>

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

 

>

 

> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

 

> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

 

> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

 

> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

 

> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

 

>

 

> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

 

> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

 

>

 

> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

 

> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

 

> of

 

> reality.

 

>

 

> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

 

> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

 

> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

 

> new

 

> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

 

> working,

 

> I change it.

 

>

 

> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

 

> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

 

> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

 

>

 

> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

 

>

 

> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

 

>

 

> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

 

> the

 

> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

 

> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

 

>

 

> Sincerely,

 

>

 

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

>

 

> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

 

>

 

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> Donald,

 

>

 

> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

 

>

 

> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

 

>

 

> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

 

>

 

> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

 

>

 

> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

 

>

 

> How do you do it?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

 

> but

 

>

 

> > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

 

> a

 

>

 

> > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

 

> around

 

>

 

> > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

 

> > 8,

 

>

 

> > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

 

>

 

> > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

 

> deal.

 

>

 

> > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

 

>

 

> > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

 

> > scale.

 

>

 

> > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

 

>

 

> > than the median.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

 

>

 

> > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

 

> a

 

>

 

> > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > <Traditional_

 

> > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

 

>

 

> > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

 

>

 

> > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

 

>

 

> > a

 

>

 

> > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

 

>

 

> > education, retirement, etc.

 

>

 

> > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

 

>

 

> > shows up or not.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Regards,

 

>

 

> > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Phone: 503 364 3022

 

>

 

> > -

 

>

 

> > Robert Chu

 

>

 

> > <Traditional_

 

> > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

 

>

 

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

 

>

 

> > was paltry.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > In private practice its much better.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

 

> > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

 

>

 

> > wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

 

>

 

> > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

 

>

 

> > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Thanks

 

>

 

> > > Julie

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

 

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for 3-4

months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be. Someone

hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We

will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with an MD,

and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They would have a

minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new location, then

they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring

in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are

real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that

is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K

a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

 Don,  I thought for sure you were in NYC.  Where in Louisiana?  I would

love to drop by your clinic sometime, but I don't get to Louisiana often. 

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

" traditional chinese medicine "

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Monday, March 2, 2009 1:45:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

 

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for 3-4

months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be. Someone

hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We

will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with an MD,

and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They would have a

minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new location, then

they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring

in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are

real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that

is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K

a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Is that why you are working under an Md's license.  Is that a State requirement

for acupuncturists?  I originally thought you were in San Diego.

 

In health,

Kathleen

 

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 2, 2009, 11:45 AM

 

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

 

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers

are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and

that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to

$800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@

<ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon,

I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

<don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one

must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great

deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But

it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage.

That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days

when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money.

It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going

to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy

radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I

cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients.

The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist

is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to

stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who

don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr

is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other

end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for

us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health

care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Don,

 

 

 

Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about and also

whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed providers

(non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

 

 

 

 

 

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential or

legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or

entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your Inbox. Thank

you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Traditional Medicine

don83407

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for 3-4

months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be. Someone

hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We

will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with an MD,

and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They would have a

minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new location, then

they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

their salary.

 

I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

 

Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

 

Chinese Medicine

ykcul_ritsym

Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring in.

 

--- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

 

Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little about

this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are real

and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K a

year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

 

Dr. Don Snow

 

 

 

johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

 

Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

Don,

 

$200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

 

I have a couple friends who are doing that.

 

I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

 

Best,

 

Kokko

 

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

 

magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

 

> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

 

>

 

>

 

> -

 

> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

> >

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

 

>

 

> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

 

> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

 

> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

 

> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

 

>

 

> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

 

> wrote:

 

> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

 

>

 

> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

 

> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

 

> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

 

> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

 

>

 

> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

 

>

 

> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

 

> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

 

> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

 

> inch needles.

 

>

 

> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

 

> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

 

> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

 

> for most of what I do.

 

>

 

> Hope this helps,

 

>

 

> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ykcul_ritsym@

 

>

 

> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

 

>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

 

>

 

> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

 

>

 

> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

 

> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

 

> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

 

> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

 

> I

 

> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

 

> and

 

> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

 

>

 

> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

 

>

 

> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

 

> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

 

> Still,

 

> it would make things grow.

 

>

 

> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

 

> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

 

> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

 

>

 

> hurting the field as a whole.

 

>

 

> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

>

 

> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

 

>

 

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> traditional_ chinese_medicine

 

>

 

> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

 

>

 

> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

 

> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

 

> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

 

> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

 

> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

 

>

 

> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

 

> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

 

>

 

> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

 

> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

 

> of

 

> reality.

 

>

 

> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

 

> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

 

> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

 

> new

 

> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

 

> working,

 

> I change it.

 

>

 

> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

 

> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

 

> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

 

>

 

> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

 

>

 

> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

 

>

 

> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

 

> the

 

> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

 

> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

 

>

 

> Sincerely,

 

>

 

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

 

>

 

> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

 

>

 

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> Donald,

 

>

 

> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

 

>

 

> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

 

>

 

> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

 

>

 

> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

 

>

 

> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

 

>

 

> How do you do it?

 

>

 

> K

 

>

 

> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

 

> but

 

>

 

> > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

 

> a

 

>

 

> > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

 

> around

 

>

 

> > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

 

> > 8,

 

>

 

> > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

 

>

 

> > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

 

> deal.

 

>

 

> > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

 

>

 

> > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

 

> > scale.

 

>

 

> > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

 

>

 

> > than the median.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

 

>

 

> > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

 

> a

 

>

 

> > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > <Traditional_

 

> > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

 

>

 

> > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

 

>

 

> > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

 

>

 

> > a

 

>

 

> > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

 

>

 

> > education, retirement, etc.

 

>

 

> > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

 

>

 

> > shows up or not.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Regards,

 

>

 

> > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > Phone: 503 364 3022

 

>

 

> > -

 

>

 

> > Robert Chu

 

>

 

> > <Traditional_

 

> > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

 

>

 

> > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

 

>

 

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

 

>

 

> > was paltry.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > In private practice its much better.

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

 

> > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

 

>

 

> > wrote:

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

> > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

 

>

 

> > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

 

>

 

> > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > > Thanks

 

>

 

> > > Julie

 

>

 

> > >

 

>

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left San Diego almost

2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I'm going back to visit

in April, but I will never live there again if I can help it.

 

 

 

As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership much like law

firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been kicking around the idea of

selling a percentage because of the equipment overhead. However, I think a

limited partnership is best with some type of percentage if the associate makes

greater than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

 

 

 

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Don,

>

>

>

> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about and

also whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed providers

(non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

>

>

>

>

>

> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential or

legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or

entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your Inbox. Thank

you.

>

>

Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for 3-4

months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be. Someone

hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We

will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with an MD,

and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They would have a

minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new location, then

they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring

in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are

real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that

is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K

a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > <Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is a wonderful requirement for us if you can find an MD to take you on.

I left SD in May 07.

 

 

 

Don Snow, DAOM, LAc.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

kthmathews2003

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:18:27 -0800

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

 

 

 

Is that why you are working under an Md's license. Is that a State requirement

for acupuncturists? I originally thought you were in San Diego.

 

In health,

Kathleen

 

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 2, 2009, 11:45 AM

 

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers

are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and

that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to

$800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@

<ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon,

I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

<don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one

must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great

deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But

it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage.

That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days

when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money.

It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going

to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy

radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I

cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients.

The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist

is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to

stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who

don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr

is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other

end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for

us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health

care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I for some reason thought you were in San Diego, Ca.  Louisiana has the

physician supervisor arrangement that Pennsylvania had until a few years ago.

 I'm amazed you've built such a large enterprise under those conditions. There

are a lot of nice, forward md's here, but it's slim pickings for a constant

patient base, let alone a growing thriving one. Advertising hasn't helped much,

but 5000 dollars worth of advertising probably would.

 I like the south, hm, that changes things a little.

 

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 2, 2009, 1:45 PM

 

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

 

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers

are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and

that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to

$800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@

<ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon,

I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

<don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one

must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great

deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But

it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage.

That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days

when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money.

It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going

to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy

radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I

cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients.

The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist

is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to

stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who

don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr

is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other

end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for

us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health

care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

If you are interested, please contact me offline via my personal email. If you

do this my business manager will contact you. Please forward your resume.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

ykcul_ritsym

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:20:17 -0800

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

 

 

 

I for some reason thought you were in San Diego, Ca. Louisiana has the

physician supervisor arrangement that Pennsylvania had until a few years ago.

I'm amazed you've built such a large enterprise under those conditions. There

are a lot of nice, forward md's here, but it's slim pickings for a constant

patient base, let alone a growing thriving one. Advertising hasn't helped much,

but 5000 dollars worth of advertising probably would.

I like the south, hm, that changes things a little.

 

--- On Mon, 3/2/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

Donald Snow <don83407

RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Monday, March 2, 2009, 1:45 PM

 

I'm located in Louisiana.

 

DJS

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> eckdclark

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Where are you located at?

>

>

>

> Dan Clark

>

>

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

>

> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

>

> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>

> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers

are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and

that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to

$800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>

> Dr. Don Snow

>

>

>

> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> Don,

>

> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>

> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>

> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>

> Best,

>

> Kokko

>

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>

> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>

> > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > -

>

> > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@

<ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> > >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

>

> >

>

> > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

>

> > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon,

I already

>

> > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

successful like you,

>

> > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

<don83407%40msn. com>>

>

> > wrote:

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>

> >

>

> > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>

> > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>

> > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

to

>

> > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

>

> >

>

> > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

peers. In

>

> >

>

> > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one

must

>

> > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>

> > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

to 6

>

> > inch needles.

>

> >

>

> > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great

deal of

>

> > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

>

> > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

>

> > for most of what I do.

>

> >

>

> > Hope this helps,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ykcul_ritsym@

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

small, of

>

> >

>

> > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>

> >

>

> > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But

it was

>

> > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>

> > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

could

>

> > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

>

> > I

>

> > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

greedy

>

> > and

>

> > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>

> >

>

> > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

wouldn't come if

>

> >

>

> > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

becuase no

>

> > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>

> > Still,

>

> > it would make things grow.

>

> >

>

> > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>

> > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

inspire. The

>

> > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

craft is

>

> >

>

> > hurting the field as a whole.

>

> >

>

> > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>

> >

>

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > traditional_ chinese_medicine

>

> >

>

> > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>

> >

>

> > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

taking

>

> > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage.

That

>

> > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

make around

>

> > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

>

> > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days

when s/he

>

> >

>

> > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money.

It's a

>

> > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going

to make

>

> >

>

> > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

continue

>

> > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

>

> > of

>

> > reality.

>

> >

>

> > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

>

> > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy

radio,

>

> > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I

cut a

>

> > new

>

> > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

stops

>

> > working,

>

> > I change it.

>

> >

>

> > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

>

> > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

per

>

> > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

>

> >

>

> > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

>

> >

>

> > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

>

> >

>

> > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

and

>

> > the

>

> > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

I'll teach

>

> > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

>

> >

>

> > Sincerely,

>

> >

>

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>

> >

>

> > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>

> >

>

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > Donald,

>

> >

>

> > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>

> >

>

> > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>

> >

>

> > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>

> >

>

> > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>

> >

>

> > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>

> >

>

> > How do you do it?

>

> >

>

> > K

>

> >

>

> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

com> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients.

The sad

>

> > but

>

> >

>

> > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

patients to make

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist

is

>

> > around

>

> >

>

> > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to

stay busy

>

> > > 8,

>

> >

>

> > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who

don't or

>

> >

>

> > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr

is a good

>

> > deal.

>

> >

>

> > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

exceed what

>

> >

>

> > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other

end of the

>

> > > scale.

>

> >

>

> > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

>

> >

>

> > > than the median.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

base. If you

>

> >

>

> > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

lucky to find

>

> > a

>

> >

>

> > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for

us.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

master's level

>

> >

>

> > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

and $65,000

>

> >

>

> > > a

>

> >

>

> > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health

care,

>

> >

>

> > > education, retirement, etc.

>

> >

>

> > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

client

>

> >

>

> > > shows up or not.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Regards,

>

> >

>

> > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Phone: 503 364 3022

>

> >

>

> > > -

>

> >

>

> > > Robert Chu

>

> >

>

> > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

com<Traditional_

>

> > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>

> >

>

> > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>

> >

>

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

Angeles. It

>

> >

>

> > > was paltry.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > In private practice its much better.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

gmail.

>

> > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

>

> >

>

> > > wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

know what a

>

> >

>

> > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

appreciate some

>

> >

>

> > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Thanks

>

> >

>

> > > > Julie

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Before this goes any further off in a tangent, I just wanted to really thank

everyone who responded to my question, I have a meeting with the MD on Thurs

the 5th and I have lots to think about!

 

Julie Ormonde, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

 

>

> If you are interested, please contact me offline via my personal email. If

> you do this my business manager will contact you. Please forward your

> resume.

>

>

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> ykcul_ritsym

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:20:17 -0800

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

>

>

>

> I for some reason thought you were in San Diego, Ca. Louisiana has the

> physician supervisor arrangement that Pennsylvania had until a few years

> ago.

> I'm amazed you've built such a large enterprise under those conditions.

> There are a lot of nice, forward md's here, but it's slim pickings for a

> constant patient base, let alone a growing thriving one. Advertising hasn't

> helped much, but 5000 dollars worth of advertising probably would.

> I like the south, hm, that changes things a little.

>

> --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> Donald Snow <don83407

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Monday, March 2, 2009, 1:45 PM

>

> I'm located in Louisiana.

>

> DJS

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > eckdclark

> > Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:19:18 -0700

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Where are you located at?

> >

> >

> >

> > Dan Clark

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

> for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can

> be.

> Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their

> own

> clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the

> contract

> with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim.

> They

> would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their

> new

> location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a

> percentage of

> earning over their salary.

> >

> > I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

> will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person

> would

> also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary.

> Assistants

> are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

> had

> made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> >

> > Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > ykcul_ritsym

> > Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

> pouring in.

> >

> > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > Donald Snow <don83407

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> >

> > Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a

> little

> about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers

> are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist

> and

> that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6

> to

> $800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

> >

> > Dr. Don Snow

> >

> >

> >

> > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >

> > Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> >

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> >

> > I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> >

> > I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Kokko

> >

> > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> >

> > magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> >

> > > I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > -

> >

> > > " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@

> <ykcul_ritsym% 40> >

> >

> > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >

> > > >

> >

> > > Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> >

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

> different,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

> japanese,

> >

> > > and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon,

> I already

> >

> > > have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

> successful like you,

> >

> > > but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> <don83407%40msn. com>>

> >

> > > wrote:

> >

> > > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

> com>>

> >

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > > traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

> chinese_medicine %40. com>

> >

> > > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> >

> > >

> >

> > > What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

> >

> > > seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

> >

> > > practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

> to

> >

> > > those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

> practices

> >

> > >

> >

> > > they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

> peers. In

> >

> > >

> >

> > > actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one

> must

> >

> > > learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> >

> > > practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

> to 6

> >

> > > inch needles.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great

> deal of

> >

> > > my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

> take

> >

> > > out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

> pays

> >

> > > for most of what I do.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Hope this helps,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > ykcul_ritsym@

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> >

> > >

> >

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

> small, of

> >

> > >

> >

> > > your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But

> it was

> >

> > > a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

> >

> > > chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

> could

> >

> > > through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

> tightened,

> >

> > > I

> >

> > > guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

> greedy

> >

> > > and

> >

> > > flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

> wouldn't come if

> >

> > >

> >

> > > you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

> becuase no

> >

> > > insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

> >

> > > Still,

> >

> > > it would make things grow.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

> >

> > > course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

> inspire. The

> >

> > > practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

> craft is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > hurting the field as a whole.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > traditional_ chinese_medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> >

> > >

> >

> > > No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

> taking

> >

> > > interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage.

> That

> >

> > > $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

> make around

> >

> > > $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

> school

> >

> > > and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days

> when s/he

> >

> > >

> >

> > > thought of what I was making started making noise for more money.

> It's a

> >

> > > shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going

> to make

> >

> > >

> >

> > > a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

> continue

> >

> > > looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

> experience

> >

> > > of

> >

> > > reality.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

> word-of

> >

> > > mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy

> radio,

> >

> > > television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I

> cut a

> >

> > > new

> >

> > > commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

> stops

> >

> > > working,

> >

> > > I change it.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

> You

> >

> > > think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

> per

> >

> > > patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

> and I

> >

> > >

> >

> > > lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

> continue

> >

> > >

> >

> > > to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

> Again,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

> and

> >

> > > the

> >

> > > ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

> I'll teach

> >

> > > it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

> contract.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Sincerely,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Donald,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> >

> > >

> >

> > > is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > How do you do it?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > K

> >

> > >

> >

> > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

> com> wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Private practice is very much better if you have the patients.

> The sad

> >

> > > but

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

> patients to make

> >

> > > a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist

> is

> >

> > > around

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to

> stay busy

> >

> > > > 8,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who

> don't or

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr

> is a good

> >

> > > deal.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

> exceed what

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other

> end of the

> >

> > > > scale.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

> different

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > than the median.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

> base. If you

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

> lucky to find

> >

> > > a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > salaried position. They historically haven't been there for

> us.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_

> >

> > > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

> master's level

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

> and $65,000

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health

> care,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > education, retirement, etc.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

> client

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > shows up or not.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Regards,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Phone: 503 364 3022

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > -

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Robert Chu

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> com<Traditional_

> >

> > > > Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

> Angeles. It

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > was paltry.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > In private practice its much better.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

> gmail.

> >

> > > > com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com> >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

> know what a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

> appreciate some

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Thanks

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Julie

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Don,

Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself soon DC along

with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into your clinic model.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left San Diego

almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I'm going back to

visit in April, but I will never live there again if I can help it.

>

>

>

> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership much like law

firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been kicking around the idea of

selling a percentage because of the equipment overhead. However, I think a

limited partnership is best with some type of percentage if the associate makes

greater than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

>

>

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> naturaldoc1

>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>

>> Don,

>>

>>

>>

>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about and

also whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed providers

(non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential or

legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or

entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your Inbox. Thank

you.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> don83407

>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for

3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

>>

>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person will

learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would also be

offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are

furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had made

me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>>

>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> ykcul_ritsym

>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are pouring

in.

>>

>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>> Donald Snow <don83407

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>>

>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are

real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that

is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K

a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

>>

>> Dr. Don Snow

>>

>>

>>

>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>

>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>>

>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>>

>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>>

>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> Kokko

>>

>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>>

>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>>

>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> -

>>

>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40>>

>>

>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>>

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is different,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

>>

>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

>>

>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

>>

>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>

>>> wrote:

>>

>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

>>

>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>>

>>>

>>

>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

>>

>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

>>

>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

>>

>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy practices

>>

>>>

>>

>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers. In

>>

>>>

>>

>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

>>

>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>>

>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

>>

>>> inch needles.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

>>

>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

>>

>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

>>

>>> for most of what I do.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Hope this helps,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> ykcul_ritsym@

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>>

>>>

>>

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small, of

>>

>>>

>>

>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

>>

>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

>>

>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

>>

>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

>>

>>> I

>>

>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

>>

>>> and

>>

>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come if

>>

>>>

>>

>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

>>

>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

>>

>>> Still,

>>

>>> it would make things grow.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

>>

>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

>>

>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft is

>>

>>>

>>

>>> hurting the field as a whole.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>>

>>>

>>

>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

>>

>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

>>

>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

>>

>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

>>

>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when s/he

>>

>>>

>>

>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

>>

>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to make

>>

>>>

>>

>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

>>

>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

>>

>>> of

>>

>>> reality.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

>>

>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

>>

>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

>>

>>> new

>>

>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

>>

>>> working,

>>

>>> I change it.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

>>

>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

>>

>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and I

>>

>>>

>>

>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they continue

>>

>>>

>>

>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice. Again,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

>>

>>> the

>>

>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

>>

>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Sincerely,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Donald,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>>

>>>

>>

>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>>

>>>

>>

>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>>

>>>

>>

>>> How do you do it?

>>

>>>

>>

>>> K

>>

>>>

>>

>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

>>

>>> but

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

>>

>>> a

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

>>

>>> around

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

>>

>>>> 8,

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

>>

>>> deal.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

>>

>>>> scale.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> than the median.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

>>

>>> a

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> <Traditional_

>>

>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> a

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> education, retirement, etc.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> shows up or not.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Regards,

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> -

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Robert Chu

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> <Traditional_

>>

>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> was paltry.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> In private practice its much better.

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

>>

>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>> Thanks

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>> Julie

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>>

>>

>>>

>>

>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

 

 

 

1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the results I get

because they don't know how to use their own equipment. I am not about to teach

someone my proprietary methodologies so they can go off and use them as their

own.

 

 

 

2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if someone is a

DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose income. I do work with a

DC though, and when the acupuncture patient does not get relief with acupuncture

it is almost a sure bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient

needs chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will " set "

the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro very often at all.

This means the chiro will loose money in the short run. But his referrals will

skyrocket. Many of my patients have been to the chiro with little or no

results. In my experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need both.

 

 

 

Hope this answers your questions.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Don,

> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself soon DC along

with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into your clinic model.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left San Diego

almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I'm going back to

visit in April, but I will never live there again if I can help it.

> >

> >

> >

> > As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership much like

law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been kicking around the idea of

selling a percentage because of the equipment overhead. However, I think a

limited partnership is best with some type of percentage if the associate makes

greater than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> >

> >

> >

> > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> >

> >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >> naturaldoc1

> >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>

> >> Don,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about and

also whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed providers

(non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

> >>

> >> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential

or legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or

entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your Inbox. Thank

you.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >> don83407

> >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology for

3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

> >>

> >> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> >>

> >> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>

> >>

> >> Chinese Medicine

> >> ykcul_ritsym

> >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

> >>

> >> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> >> Donald Snow <don83407

> >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> >>

> >> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a little

about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these numbers are

real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that

is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at around $6 to $800K

a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another arm here.

> >>

> >> Dr. Don Snow

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >>

> >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> >>

> >> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >> Don,

> >>

> >> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> >>

> >> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> >>

> >> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> >>

> >> Best,

> >>

> >> Kokko

> >>

> >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> >>

> >> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> >>

> >>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> -

> >>

> >>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40>>

> >>

> >>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> >>

> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat japanese,

> >>

> >>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I already

> >>

> >>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like you,

> >>

> >>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> >>

> >>> wrote:

> >>

> >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> >>

> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

> >>

> >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

> >>

> >>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

> >>

> >>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

> >>

> >>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers.

In

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

> >>

> >>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> >>

> >>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to 6

> >>

> >>> inch needles.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal of

> >>

> >>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to take

> >>

> >>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance pays

> >>

> >>> for most of what I do.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Hope this helps,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> ykcul_ritsym@

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small,

of

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it was

> >>

> >>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

> >>

> >>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

> >>

> >>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got tightened,

> >>

> >>> I

> >>

> >>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

> >>

> >>> and

> >>

> >>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come

if

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

> >>

> >>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

> >>

> >>> Still,

> >>

> >>> it would make things grow.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

> >>

> >>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire. The

> >>

> >>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft

is

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> hurting the field as a whole.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

> >>

> >>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

> >>

> >>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make around

> >>

> >>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of school

> >>

> >>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when

s/he

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

> >>

> >>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to

make

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

> >>

> >>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the experience

> >>

> >>> of

> >>

> >>> reality.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by word-of

> >>

> >>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

> >>

> >>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

> >>

> >>> new

> >>

> >>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

> >>

> >>> working,

> >>

> >>> I change it.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box. You

> >>

> >>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

> >>

> >>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice and

I

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

> >>

> >>> the

> >>

> >>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll teach

> >>

> >>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written contract.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Sincerely,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Donald,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> How do you do it?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> K

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

> >>

> >>> but

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to make

> >>

> >>> a

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

> >>

> >>> around

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay busy

> >>

> >>>> 8,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't or

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

> >>

> >>> deal.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed what

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

> >>

> >>>> scale.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be different

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> than the median.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If you

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to find

> >>

> >>> a

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> <Traditional_

> >>

> >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and $65,000

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> a

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> education, retirement, etc.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> shows up or not.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Regards,

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> -

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Robert Chu

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> <Traditional_

> >>

> >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles. It

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> was paltry.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> In private practice its much better.

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

> >>

> >>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>> wrote:

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate some

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>> Thanks

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>> Julie

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>>

> >>

> >>>

> >>

> >>>>>

[Guest guest]

Don,

 

 

 

Actually I was asking about those providers that have other healthcare training

plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about adding that into your clinic. It

sounds like something you are not interested in. Just curious as to how you

plan to keep your associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

(answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

 

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

>

>

>

> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the results I

get because they don't know how to use their own equipment. I am not about to

teach someone my proprietary methodologies so they can go off and use them as

their own.

>

>

>

> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if someone is a

DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose income. I do work with a DC

though, and when the acupuncture patient does not get relief with acupuncture it

is almost a sure bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient

needs chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will " set " the

chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro very often at all. This

means the chiro will loose money in the short run. But his referrals will

skyrocket. Many of my patients have been to the chiro with little or no results.

In my experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro because

acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need both.

>

>

>

> Hope this answers your questions.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Don,

> > Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself soon DC along

with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into your clinic model.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > don83407

> > > Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >

> > >

> > > I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left San Diego

almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I'm going back to

visit in April, but I will never live there again if I can help it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership much like

law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been kicking around the idea of

selling a percentage because of the equipment overhead. However, I think a

limited partnership is best with some type of percentage if the associate makes

greater than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > >

> > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >> naturaldoc1

> > >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Don,

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about

and also whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed

providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few

years. Thanks

> > >>

> > >> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential

or legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or

entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you

are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this

e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your Inbox. Thank

you.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >> don83407

> > >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

> > >>

> > >> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That person

will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person would

also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary. Assistants

are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone had

made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> > >>

> > >> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Chinese Medicine

> > >> ykcul_ritsym

> > >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

> > >>

> > >> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > >> Donald Snow <don83407

> > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> > >>

> > >> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a

little about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these

numbers are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another

acupuncturist and that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out

at around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another

arm here.

> > >>

> > >> Dr. Don Snow

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > >>

> > >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> > >>

> > >> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >> Don,

> > >>

> > >> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> > >>

> > >> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> > >>

> > >> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> > >>

> > >> Best,

> > >>

> > >> Kokko

> > >>

> > >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> > >>

> > >> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> -

> > >>

> > >>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40>>

> > >>

> > >>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> > >>

> > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

> > >>

> > >>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I

already

> > >>

> > >>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like

you,

> > >>

> > >>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

> > >>

> > >>> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > >>

> > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

> > >>

> > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

> > >>

> > >>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

> > >>

> > >>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell to

> > >>

> > >>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our peers.

In

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

> > >>

> > >>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> > >>

> > >>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3 to

6

> > >>

> > >>> inch needles.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal

of

> > >>

> > >>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

> > >>

> > >>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

> > >>

> > >>> for most of what I do.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Hope this helps,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> ykcul_ritsym@

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or small,

of

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it

was

> > >>

> > >>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

> > >>

> > >>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they could

> > >>

> > >>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

> > >>

> > >>> I

> > >>

> > >>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too greedy

> > >>

> > >>> and

> > >>

> > >>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't come

if

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

> > >>

> > >>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

> > >>

> > >>> Still,

> > >>

> > >>> it would make things grow.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

> > >>

> > >>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire.

The

> > >>

> > >>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little craft

is

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> hurting the field as a whole.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am taking

> > >>

> > >>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

> > >>

> > >>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make

around

> > >>

> > >>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

> > >>

> > >>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when

s/he

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's a

> > >>

> > >>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to

make

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

> > >>

> > >>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

> > >>

> > >>> of

> > >>

> > >>> reality.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

> > >>

> > >>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

> > >>

> > >>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut a

> > >>

> > >>> new

> > >>

> > >>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

> > >>

> > >>> working,

> > >>

> > >>> I change it.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

> > >>

> > >>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400 per

> > >>

> > >>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated and

> > >>

> > >>> the

> > >>

> > >>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll

teach

> > >>

> > >>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Sincerely,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Donald,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> How do you do it?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> K

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The sad

> > >>

> > >>> but

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to

make

> > >>

> > >>> a

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

> > >>

> > >>> around

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay

busy

> > >>

> > >>>> 8,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't

or

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

> > >>

> > >>> deal.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed

what

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

> > >>

> > >>>> scale.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> than the median.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If

you

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to

find

> > >>

> > >>> a

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> <Traditional_

> > >>

> > >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's level

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and

$65,000

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> a

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> education, retirement, etc.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the client

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> shows up or not.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Regards,

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> -

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Robert Chu

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> <Traditional_

> > >>

> > >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles.

It

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> was paltry.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> In private practice its much better.

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

> > >>

> > >>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what a

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate

some

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>> Thanks

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>> Julie

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>>

> > >>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >>>>>

[Guest guest]

I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place right now.

This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I teach must sign a

contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10% of what they earn, if they use

my methodology, for the rest of their working lives. This should be worth it

because if they were only earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then

earn double that, I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

 

 

 

Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Don,

>

>

>

> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other healthcare

training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about adding that into your

clinic. It sounds like something you are not interested in. Just curious as to

how you plan to keep your associate from leaving with information they learn on

the job (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

>

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

> >

> >

> >

> > 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the results I

get because they don't know how to use their own equipment. I am not about to

teach someone my proprietary methodologies so they can go off and use them as

their own.

> >

> >

> >

> > 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if someone is

a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose income. I do work with a

DC though, and when the acupuncture patient does not get relief with acupuncture

it is almost a sure bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient

needs chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will " set " the

chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro very often at all. This

means the chiro will loose money in the short run. But his referrals will

skyrocket. Many of my patients have been to the chiro with little or no results.

In my experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro because

acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need both.

> >

> >

> >

> > Hope this answers your questions.

> >

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > naturaldoc1

> > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >

> > >

> > > Don,

> > > Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself soon DC

along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into your clinic model.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > don83407

> > > > Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> > > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left San Diego

almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made. I'm going back to

visit in April, but I will never live there again if I can help it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership much

like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been kicking around the

idea of selling a percentage because of the equipment overhead. However, I think

a limited partnership is best with some type of percentage if the associate

makes greater than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > > >

> > > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >> naturaldoc1

> > > >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> > > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Don,

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are thinking about

and also whether or not your plans would be interested in dual licensed

providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking to head back to So Cal in the next few

years. Thanks

> > > >>

> > > >> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > > >> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only for the

individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended

recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution,

or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the message from your

Inbox. Thank you.

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >> don83407

> > > >> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> > > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment methodology

for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and knows how tough it can be.

Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 or 4 months wants to take over their own

clinic. We will buy their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract

with an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or swim. They

would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they start producing at their new

location, then they would be offered a limited partnership with a percentage of

earning over their salary.

> > > >>

> > > >> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. That

person will learn to train others and develop their own clientele. That person

would also be offered a percentage of anything beyond their base salary.

Assistants are furnished along with billing and front office personnel. I wish

someone had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> > > >>

> > > >> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Chinese Medicine

> > > >> ykcul_ritsym

> > > >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> > > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the resumes are

pouring in.

> > > >>

> > > >> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > > >> Donald Snow <don83407

> > > >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> > > >>

> > > >> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have explained a

little about this on earlier posts and don't want to re-hash it. But these

numbers are real and very doable. I do, however, need to hire another

acupuncturist and that is what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out

at around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process. I need another

arm here.

> > > >>

> > > >> Dr. Don Snow

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > > >>

> > > >> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> > > >>

> > > >> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >> Don,

> > > >>

> > > >> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> > > >>

> > > >> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> > > >>

> > > >> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> > > >>

> > > >> Best,

> > > >>

> > > >> Kokko

> > > >>

> > > >> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> > > >>

> > > >> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> -

> > > >>

> > > >>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% 40>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> > > >>

> > > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth is

different,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a cat

japanese,

> > > >>

> > > >>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, c'mon, I

already

> > > >>

> > > >>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not successful like

you,

> > > >>

> > > >>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace brother.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn.

com>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine <traditional_

chinese_medicine %40. com>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around giving

> > > >>

> > > >>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain a busy

> > > >>

> > > >>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped to sell

to

> > > >>

> > > >>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and busy

practices

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching our

peers. In

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often one must

> > > >>

> > > >>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> > > >>

> > > >>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really required 3

to 6

> > > >>

> > > >>> inch needles.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a great deal

of

> > > >>

> > > >>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They used to

take

> > > >>

> > > >>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But insurance

pays

> > > >>

> > > >>> for most of what I do.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Hope this helps,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> ykcul_ritsym@

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big or

small, of

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a while. But it

was

> > > >>

> > > >>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the patient had

> > > >>

> > > >>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever they

could

> > > >>

> > > >>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws got

tightened,

> > > >>

> > > >>> I

> > > >>

> > > >>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting too

greedy

> > > >>

> > > >>> and

> > > >>

> > > >>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They wouldn't

come if

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time becuase no

> > > >>

> > > >>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money anyway.

> > > >>

> > > >>> Still,

> > > >>

> > > >>> it would make things grow.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from you. Of

> > > >>

> > > >>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or inspire.

The

> > > >>

> > > >>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our little

craft is

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> hurting the field as a whole.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I am

taking

> > > >>

> > > >>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a percentage. That

> > > >>

> > > >>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I make

around

> > > >>

> > > >>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right out of

school

> > > >>

> > > >>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of days when

s/he

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more money. It's

a

> > > >>

> > > >>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are going to

make

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to continue

> > > >>

> > > >>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

experience

> > > >>

> > > >>> of

> > > >>

> > > >>> reality.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients come by

word-of

> > > >>

> > > >>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I buy radio,

> > > >>

> > > >>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. Yesterday I cut

a

> > > >>

> > > >>> new

> > > >>

> > > >>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or stops

> > > >>

> > > >>> working,

> > > >>

> > > >>> I change it.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside the box.

You

> > > >>

> > > >>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make $200-400

per

> > > >>

> > > >>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of practice

and I

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If they

continue

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of practice.

Again,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually unappreciated

and

> > > >>

> > > >>> the

> > > >>

> > > >>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. I'll

teach

> > > >>

> > > >>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a written

contract.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Sincerely,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Donald,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> How do you do it?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> K

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the patients. The

sad

> > > >>

> > > >>> but

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the patients to

make

> > > >>

> > > >>> a

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an acupuncturist is

> > > >>

> > > >>> around

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients to stay

busy

> > > >>

> > > >>>> 8,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those who don't

or

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is a good

> > > >>

> > > >>> deal.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that exceed

what

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end of the

> > > >>

> > > >>>> scale.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will be

different

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> than the median.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient base. If

you

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be lucky to

find

> > > >>

> > > >>> a

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> <Traditional_

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all master's

level

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 and

$65,000

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> a

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for health care,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> education, retirement, etc.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether the

client

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> shows up or not.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Regards,

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> -

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Robert Chu

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> <Traditional_

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los Angeles.

It

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> was paltry.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> In private practice its much better.

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ gmail.

> > > >>

> > > >>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>> wrote:

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to know what

a

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd appreciate

some

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>> Thanks

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>> Julie

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >>>>>

[Guest guest]

Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

then they off free.

 

David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

 

On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

 

>

> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

>

>

>

> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> naturaldoc1

>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>

>> Don,

>>

>>

>>

>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>

>>

>>

>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>> don83407

>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>

>>>

>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

>>> both.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hope this answers your questions.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Sincerely,

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>

>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Don,

>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

>>>> your clinic model.

>>>>

>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>

>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>> don83407

>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

>>>>> there again if I can help it.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> don83407

>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

>>>>>> their salary.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

>>>>>> I need another arm here.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Kokko

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>>>>>>

>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

>>>>>>> 40>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

>>>>>>> is different,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

>>>>>>> cat japanese,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

>>>>>>> successful like you,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

>>>>>>> brother.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

>>>>>>> giving

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

>>>>>>> a busy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

>>>>>>> to sell to

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

>>>>>>> busy practices

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

>>>>>>> our peers. In

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

>>>>>>> one must

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> inch needles.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

>>>>>>> great deal of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

>>>>>>> used to take

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

>>>>>>> insurance pays

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

>>>>>>> or small, of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

>>>>>>> while. But it was

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

>>>>>>> patient had

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

>>>>>>> they could

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

>>>>>>> got tightened,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

>>>>>>> too greedy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

>>>>>>> becuase no

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Still,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

>>>>>>> you. Of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

>>>>>>> inspire. The

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

>>>>>>> little craft is

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

>>>>>>> am taking

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

>>>>>>> percentage. That

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

>>>>>>> make around

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

>>>>>>> out of school

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

>>>>>>> days when s/he

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

>>>>>>> money. It's a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

>>>>>>> going to make

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

>>>>>>> continue

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

>>>>>>> experience

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> reality.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

>>>>>>> come by word-of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

>>>>>>> buy radio,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> new

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

>>>>>>> stops

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> working,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I change it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

>>>>>>> the box. You

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

>>>>>>> $200-400 per

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

>>>>>>> practice and I

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

>>>>>>> they continue

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

>>>>>>> practice. Again,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

>>>>>>> unappreciated and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> the

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

>>>>>>> I'll teach

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

>>>>>>> written contract.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Sincerely,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> How do you do it?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> K

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

>>>>>>> com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> but

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

>>>>>>>> patients to make

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> around

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

>>>>>>>> to stay busy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 8,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

>>>>>>>> who don't or

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

>>>>>>>> a good

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> deal.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

>>>>>>>> exceed what

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

>>>>>>>> of the

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> scale.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

>>>>>>>> be different

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> than the median.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

>>>>>>>> base. If you

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

>>>>>>>> lucky to find

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

>>>>>>>> master's level

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

>>>>>>>> and $65,000

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

>>>>>>>> health care,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

>>>>>>>> the client

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> was paltry.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

>>>>>>>> gmail.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

>>>>>>>>> know what a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Thanks

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Julie

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I don't see

anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there are

patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please do

not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I

have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's

fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you.

 

 

 

Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists. I

own a proprietary methodology.

 

 

 

And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought

dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not

consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that

is not yours and making it yours.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

davidetoone

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500

Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

then they off free.

 

David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

 

On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

 

>

> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

>

>

>

> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> naturaldoc1

>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>

>>

>> Don,

>>

>>

>>

>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>

>>

>>

>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>> don83407

>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>

>>>

>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

>>> both.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Hope this answers your questions.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Sincerely,

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>

>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Don,

>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

>>>> your clinic model.

>>>>

>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>

>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>> don83407

>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

>>>>> there again if I can help it.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> don83407

>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

>>>>>> their salary.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

>>>>>> I need another arm here.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Kokko

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>>>>>>

>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

>>>>>>> 40>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

>>>>>>> is different,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

>>>>>>> cat japanese,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

>>>>>>> successful like you,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

>>>>>>> brother.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

>>>>>>> giving

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

>>>>>>> a busy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

>>>>>>> to sell to

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

>>>>>>> busy practices

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

>>>>>>> our peers. In

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

>>>>>>> one must

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> inch needles.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

>>>>>>> great deal of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

>>>>>>> used to take

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

>>>>>>> insurance pays

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

>>>>>>> or small, of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

>>>>>>> while. But it was

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

>>>>>>> patient had

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

>>>>>>> they could

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

>>>>>>> got tightened,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

>>>>>>> too greedy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

>>>>>>> becuase no

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Still,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

>>>>>>> you. Of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

>>>>>>> inspire. The

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

>>>>>>> little craft is

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

>>>>>>> am taking

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

>>>>>>> percentage. That

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

>>>>>>> make around

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

>>>>>>> out of school

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

>>>>>>> days when s/he

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

>>>>>>> money. It's a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

>>>>>>> going to make

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

>>>>>>> continue

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

>>>>>>> experience

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> reality.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

>>>>>>> come by word-of

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

>>>>>>> buy radio,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> new

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

>>>>>>> stops

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> working,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I change it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

>>>>>>> the box. You

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

>>>>>>> $200-400 per

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

>>>>>>> practice and I

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

>>>>>>> they continue

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

>>>>>>> practice. Again,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

>>>>>>> unappreciated and

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> the

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

>>>>>>> I'll teach

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

>>>>>>> written contract.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Sincerely,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Donald,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> How do you do it?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> K

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

>>>>>>> com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> but

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

>>>>>>>> patients to make

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> around

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

>>>>>>>> to stay busy

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 8,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

>>>>>>>> who don't or

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

>>>>>>>> a good

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> deal.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

>>>>>>>> exceed what

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

>>>>>>>> of the

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> scale.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

>>>>>>>> be different

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> than the median.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

>>>>>>>> base. If you

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

>>>>>>>> lucky to find

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

>>>>>>>> master's level

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

>>>>>>>> and $65,000

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

>>>>>>>> health care,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

>>>>>>>> the client

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> was paltry.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

>>>>>>>> gmail.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

>>>>>>>>> know what a

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Thanks

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Julie

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Don,

I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent. I do

find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing unenforceable

though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the concepts and

simply opening their own clinic up).

In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of

uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of

intellectual property?

I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not much that

is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say,

tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any

remuneration.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I don't

see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there are

patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please do

not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I

have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's

fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you.

>

>

>

> Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists. I

own a proprietary methodology.

>

>

>

> And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought

dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not

consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that

is not yours and making it yours.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> davidetoone

> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500

> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

>

>

>

> Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

> duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

> such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

> a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

> then they off free.

>

> David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

>

> On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

>>

>> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

>> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

>> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

>> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

>> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

>> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

>> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

>>

>>

>>

>> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

>>

>>

>>

>> Sincerely,

>>

>>

>>

>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>>

>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>> naturaldoc1

>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>

>>>

>>> Don,

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

>>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

>>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

>>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

>>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

>>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

>>>

>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>> don83407

>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

>>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

>>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

>>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

>>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

>>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

>>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

>>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

>>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

>>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

>>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

>>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

>>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

>>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

>>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

>>>> both.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Hope this answers your questions.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Sincerely,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>

>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Don,

>>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

>>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

>>>>> your clinic model.

>>>>>

>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>>

>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>> don83407

>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

>>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

>>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

>>>>>> there again if I can help it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

>>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

>>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

>>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

>>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

>>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>>> naturaldoc1

>>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

>>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

>>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

>>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

>>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

>>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

>>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

>>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

>>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

>>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>>> don83407

>>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

>>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

>>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

>>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

>>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

>>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

>>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

>>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

>>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

>>>>>>> their salary.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

>>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

>>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

>>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

>>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

>>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

>>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

>>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

>>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

>>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

>>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

>>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

>>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

>>>>>>> I need another arm here.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Don,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Kokko

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

>>>>>>>> 40>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

>>>>>>>> is different,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

>>>>>>>> cat japanese,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

>>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

>>>>>>>> successful like you,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

>>>>>>>> brother.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

>>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

>>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

>>>>>>>> giving

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

>>>>>>>> a busy

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

>>>>>>>> to sell to

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

>>>>>>>> busy practices

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

>>>>>>>> our peers. In

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

>>>>>>>> one must

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

>>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> inch needles.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

>>>>>>>> great deal of

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

>>>>>>>> used to take

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

>>>>>>>> insurance pays

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

>>>>>>>> or small, of

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

>>>>>>>> while. But it was

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

>>>>>>>> patient had

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

>>>>>>>> they could

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

>>>>>>>> got tightened,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

>>>>>>>> too greedy

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> and

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

>>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

>>>>>>>> becuase no

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

>>>>>>>> anyway.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Still,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

>>>>>>>> you. Of

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

>>>>>>>> inspire. The

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

>>>>>>>> little craft is

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

>>>>>>>> am taking

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

>>>>>>>> percentage. That

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

>>>>>>>> make around

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

>>>>>>>> out of school

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

>>>>>>>> days when s/he

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

>>>>>>>> money. It's a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

>>>>>>>> going to make

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

>>>>>>>> continue

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

>>>>>>>> experience

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> of

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> reality.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

>>>>>>>> come by word-of

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

>>>>>>>> buy radio,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

>>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> new

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

>>>>>>>> stops

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> working,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I change it.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

>>>>>>>> the box. You

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

>>>>>>>> $200-400 per

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

>>>>>>>> practice and I

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

>>>>>>>> they continue

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

>>>>>>>> practice. Again,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

>>>>>>>> unappreciated and

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> the

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

>>>>>>>> I'll teach

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

>>>>>>>> written contract.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Sincerely,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Donald,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> How do you do it?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> K

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

>>>>>>>> com> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

>>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> but

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

>>>>>>>>> patients to make

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

>>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> around

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

>>>>>>>>> to stay busy

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> 8,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

>>>>>>>>> who don't or

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

>>>>>>>>> a good

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> deal.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

>>>>>>>>> exceed what

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

>>>>>>>>> of the

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> scale.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

>>>>>>>>> be different

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> than the median.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

>>>>>>>>> base. If you

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

>>>>>>>>> lucky to find

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

>>>>>>>>> master's level

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

>>>>>>>>> and $65,000

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

>>>>>>>>> health care,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

>>>>>>>>> the client

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> -

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

>>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

>>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> was paltry.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

>>>>>>>>> gmail.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

>>>>>>>>>> know what a

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

>>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Thanks

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> Julie

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

>>

Product or process, if a competitor is more than 10% different a

patent is unenforceable. The way I see it, folks can either spend

their time and resources either litigating or helping people. I think

we can both guess which path your lawyers would rather you take.

Best of luck.

 

David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

 

>> Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already

>> exists. I own a proprietary methodology.

[Guest guest]

Innovative people create new things all the time. Einstien, Pasteur, Royal

Rife, etc. When things are standardized, that means things never change because

change is not " standardized. "

 

 

 

I can, indeed, protect my knowledge. I can just not teach it. I know others

are not doing what I do because they are not getting the results that I am

getting. I taught at one of the largest AOM schools in the U.S and I know the

results my peers were getting and the results I'm getting, and they weren't

really even close then and I've improved 110% since I've left. The equipment I

use is standardized and FDA approved, my methodology isn't. And if my

methodology is changed even " 10% " , the results will not be forthcoming. If the

results are not forthcoming, patients will not be coming forth, because what I

do is expensive and time consuming. But patients who come to me pay for

results.

 

 

 

That being said. I have a nice business making an income that less than 2% of

the population is making. And there aren't many acupuncturists that are doing

that. If one wants to make a million dollars, you don't ask someone that isn't

making that amount how to do it because if they knew how, they would be doing

it. Therefore, I have a way to make people better and create a nice income. I

can either keep it to myself, of find humble, trustworthy people to teach, which

is what I am trying to find.

 

 

 

It is said that many martial artists withheld a piece of knowledge from their

students. After time that does water down the art. I believe that if others

knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well

quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a

travesty. Therefore, I'm pretty sure no one else has the knowledge that I found

through much trial and error.

 

 

 

That being said, people can believe what they will. But as for me, I'll

continue down my path. It has been said that what separates the extraorinary

person from the ordinary person is that the extraordinary person just does that

something a little extra.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:13:53 +0000

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Don,

> I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent. I do

find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing unenforceable

though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the concepts and

simply opening their own clinic up).

> In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of

uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of

intellectual property?

> I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not much

that is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say,

tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any

remuneration.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I don't

see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there are

patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please do

not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I

have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's

fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you.

> >

> >

> >

> > Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists. I

own a proprietary methodology.

> >

> >

> >

> > And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought

dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not

consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that

is not yours and making it yours.

> >

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > davidetoone

> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500

> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

> > duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

> > such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

> > a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

> > then they off free.

> >

> > David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

> >

> > On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

> >

> >>

> >> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

> >> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

> >> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

> >> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

> >> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

> >> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

> >> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Sincerely,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> >>

> >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>> naturaldoc1

> >>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Don,

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

> >>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

> >>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

> >>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

> >>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

> >>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

> >>>

> >>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>> don83407

> >>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

> >>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

> >>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

> >>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

> >>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

> >>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

> >>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

> >>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

> >>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

> >>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

> >>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

> >>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

> >>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

> >>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

> >>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

> >>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

> >>>> both.

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Hope this answers your questions.

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Sincerely,

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>>>

> >>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>>> naturaldoc1

> >>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> >>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Don,

> >>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

> >>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

> >>>>> your clinic model.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>>>> don83407

> >>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> >>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

> >>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

> >>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

> >>>>>> there again if I can help it.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

> >>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

> >>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

> >>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

> >>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

> >>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>>>>> naturaldoc1

> >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Don,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

> >>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

> >>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

> >>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

> >>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

> >>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

> >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

> >>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

> >>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

> >>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

> >>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>>>>> don83407

> >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

> >>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

> >>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

> >>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

> >>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

> >>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

> >>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

> >>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

> >>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

> >>>>>>> their salary.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

> >>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

> >>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

> >>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

> >>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

> >>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

> >>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

> >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

> >>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> >>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

> >>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

> >>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

> >>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

> >>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

> >>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

> >>>>>>> I need another arm here.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Don,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Best,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> Kokko

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> -

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

> >>>>>>>> 40>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> >>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

> >>>>>>>> is different,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

> >>>>>>>> cat japanese,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

> >>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

> >>>>>>>> successful like you,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

> >>>>>>>> brother.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> >>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

> >>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

> >>>>>>>> giving

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

> >>>>>>>> a busy

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

> >>>>>>>> to sell to

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

> >>>>>>>> busy practices

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

> >>>>>>>> our peers. In

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

> >>>>>>>> one must

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

> >>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> inch needles.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

> >>>>>>>> great deal of

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

> >>>>>>>> used to take

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

> >>>>>>>> insurance pays

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

> >>>>>>>> or small, of

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

> >>>>>>>> while. But it was

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

> >>>>>>>> patient had

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

> >>>>>>>> they could

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

> >>>>>>>> got tightened,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

> >>>>>>>> too greedy

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> and

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

> >>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

> >>>>>>>> becuase no

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

> >>>>>>>> anyway.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Still,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

> >>>>>>>> you. Of

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

> >>>>>>>> inspire. The

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

> >>>>>>>> little craft is

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

> >>>>>>>> am taking

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

> >>>>>>>> percentage. That

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

> >>>>>>>> make around

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

> >>>>>>>> out of school

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

> >>>>>>>> days when s/he

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

> >>>>>>>> money. It's a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

> >>>>>>>> going to make

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

> >>>>>>>> continue

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

> >>>>>>>> experience

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> of

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> reality.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

> >>>>>>>> come by word-of

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

> >>>>>>>> buy radio,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

> >>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> new

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

> >>>>>>>> stops

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> working,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I change it.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

> >>>>>>>> the box. You

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

> >>>>>>>> $200-400 per

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

> >>>>>>>> practice and I

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

> >>>>>>>> they continue

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

> >>>>>>>> practice. Again,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

> >>>>>>>> unappreciated and

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> the

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

> >>>>>>>> I'll teach

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

> >>>>>>>> written contract.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Sincerely,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Donald,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> How do you do it?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> K

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

> >>>>>>>> com> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

> >>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> but

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

> >>>>>>>>> patients to make

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

> >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> around

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

> >>>>>>>>> to stay busy

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> 8,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

> >>>>>>>>> who don't or

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

> >>>>>>>>> a good

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> deal.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

> >>>>>>>>> exceed what

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

> >>>>>>>>> of the

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> scale.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

> >>>>>>>>> be different

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> than the median.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

> >>>>>>>>> base. If you

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

> >>>>>>>>> lucky to find

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

> >>>>>>>>> master's level

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

> >>>>>>>>> and $65,000

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

> >>>>>>>>> health care,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

> >>>>>>>>> the client

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Regards,

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> -

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

> >>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> was paltry.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

> >>>>>>>>> gmail.

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

> >>>>>>>>>> know what a

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

> >>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>> Julie

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Don,

 

What you say may be true but let's not forget that those that deviate too far

from the norm, in healthcare, also increase their risks of liability. What they

are doing may not be recognized as standard practice and could jeopardize them.

Rife was an excellent example of this. It appears that you know some of his

history and how he was pushed out of his own profession. His was also a truth

seeker and he felt that he had this as well.

 

How can you be so sure that others do not understand your ideas or even taken

them to another level?

 

BTW, many practitioners have found ways to get great results and I continue to

learn from them. In the meantime, I have had good success with some interesting

conditions. I am glad that you are learning and developing new ideas as that is

what is needed. Please let me know if you decide to conduct seminars. Thanks

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:27:53 -0600

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Innovative people create new things all the time. Einstien, Pasteur, Royal

Rife, etc. When things are standardized, that means things never change because

change is not " standardized. "

>

>

>

> I can, indeed, protect my knowledge. I can just not teach it. I know others

are not doing what I do because they are not getting the results that I am

getting. I taught at one of the largest AOM schools in the U.S and I know the

results my peers were getting and the results I'm getting, and they weren't

really even close then and I've improved 110% since I've left. The equipment I

use is standardized and FDA approved, my methodology isn't. And if my

methodology is changed even " 10% " , the results will not be forthcoming. If the

results are not forthcoming, patients will not be coming forth, because what I

do is expensive and time consuming. But patients who come to me pay for

results.

>

>

>

> That being said. I have a nice business making an income that less than 2% of

the population is making. And there aren't many acupuncturists that are doing

that. If one wants to make a million dollars, you don't ask someone that isn't

making that amount how to do it because if they knew how, they would be doing

it. Therefore, I have a way to make people better and create a nice income. I

can either keep it to myself, of find humble, trustworthy people to teach, which

is what I am trying to find.

>

>

>

> It is said that many martial artists withheld a piece of knowledge from their

students. After time that does water down the art. I believe that if others

knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well

quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a

travesty. Therefore, I'm pretty sure no one else has the knowledge that I found

through much trial and error.

>

>

>

> That being said, people can believe what they will. But as for me, I'll

continue down my path. It has been said that what separates the extraorinary

person from the ordinary person is that the extraordinary person just does that

something a little extra.

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:13:53 +0000

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Don,

> > I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent. I

do find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing

unenforceable though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the

concepts and simply opening their own clinic up).

> > In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of

uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of

intellectual property?

> > I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not much

that is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say,

tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any

remuneration.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > don83407

> > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >

> > >

> > > Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I

don't see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there

are patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please

do not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I

have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's

fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists.

I own a proprietary methodology.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought

dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not

consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that

is not yours and making it yours.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > >

> > > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > davidetoone

> > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500

> > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

> > > duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

> > > such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

> > > a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

> > > then they off free.

> > >

> > > David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

> > >

> > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

> > >

> > >>

> > >> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

> > >> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

> > >> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

> > >> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

> > >> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

> > >> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

> > >> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Sincerely,

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > >>

> > >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>> naturaldoc1

> > >>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

> > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>> Don,

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

> > >>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

> > >>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

> > >>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

> > >>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

> > >>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

> > >>>

> > >>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>> don83407

> > >>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

> > >>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

> > >>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

> > >>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

> > >>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

> > >>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

> > >>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

> > >>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

> > >>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

> > >>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

> > >>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

> > >>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

> > >>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

> > >>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

> > >>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

> > >>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

> > >>>> both.

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Hope this answers your questions.

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Sincerely,

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>>>

> > >>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>>> naturaldoc1

> > >>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> > >>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> Don,

> > >>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

> > >>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

> > >>>>> your clinic model.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>>>> don83407

> > >>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> > >>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

> > >>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

> > >>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

> > >>>>>> there again if I can help it.

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

> > >>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

> > >>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

> > >>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

> > >>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

> > >>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>>>>> naturaldoc1

> > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Don,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

> > >>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

> > >>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

> > >>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

> > >>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

> > >>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

> > >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

> > >>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

> > >>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

> > >>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

> > >>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>>>>> don83407

> > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

> > >>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

> > >>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

> > >>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

> > >>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

> > >>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

> > >>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

> > >>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

> > >>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

> > >>>>>>> their salary.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

> > >>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

> > >>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

> > >>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

> > >>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

> > >>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

> > >>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

> > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

> > >>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > >>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

> > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > >>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

> > >>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

> > >>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

> > >>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

> > >>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

> > >>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

> > >>>>>>> I need another arm here.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Don,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Best,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Kokko

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> -

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

> > >>>>>>>> 40>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > >>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

> > >>>>>>>> is different,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

> > >>>>>>>> cat japanese,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

> > >>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

> > >>>>>>>> successful like you,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

> > >>>>>>>> brother.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> > >>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

> > >>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

> > >>>>>>>> giving

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

> > >>>>>>>> a busy

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

> > >>>>>>>> to sell to

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

> > >>>>>>>> busy practices

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

> > >>>>>>>> our peers. In

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

> > >>>>>>>> one must

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

> > >>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> inch needles.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

> > >>>>>>>> great deal of

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

> > >>>>>>>> used to take

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

> > >>>>>>>> insurance pays

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

> > >>>>>>>> or small, of

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

> > >>>>>>>> while. But it was

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

> > >>>>>>>> patient had

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

> > >>>>>>>> they could

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

> > >>>>>>>> got tightened,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> I

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

> > >>>>>>>> too greedy

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> and

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

> > >>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

> > >>>>>>>> becuase no

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

> > >>>>>>>> anyway.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Still,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

> > >>>>>>>> you. Of

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

> > >>>>>>>> inspire. The

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

> > >>>>>>>> little craft is

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

> > >>>>>>>> am taking

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

> > >>>>>>>> percentage. That

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

> > >>>>>>>> make around

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

> > >>>>>>>> out of school

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

> > >>>>>>>> days when s/he

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

> > >>>>>>>> money. It's a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

> > >>>>>>>> going to make

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

> > >>>>>>>> continue

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

> > >>>>>>>> experience

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> of

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> reality.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

> > >>>>>>>> come by word-of

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

> > >>>>>>>> buy radio,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

> > >>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> new

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

> > >>>>>>>> stops

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> working,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> I change it.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

> > >>>>>>>> the box. You

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

> > >>>>>>>> $200-400 per

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

> > >>>>>>>> practice and I

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

> > >>>>>>>> they continue

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

> > >>>>>>>> practice. Again,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

> > >>>>>>>> unappreciated and

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> the

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

> > >>>>>>>> I'll teach

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

> > >>>>>>>> written contract.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Sincerely,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Donald,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> How do you do it?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> K

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

> > >>>>>>>> com> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

> > >>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> but

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

> > >>>>>>>>> patients to make

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

> > >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> around

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

> > >>>>>>>>> to stay busy

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> 8,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

> > >>>>>>>>> who don't or

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

> > >>>>>>>>> a good

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> deal.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

> > >>>>>>>>> exceed what

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

> > >>>>>>>>> of the

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> scale.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

> > >>>>>>>>> be different

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> than the median.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

> > >>>>>>>>> base. If you

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

> > >>>>>>>>> lucky to find

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

> > >>>>>>>>> master's level

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

> > >>>>>>>>> and $65,000

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

> > >>>>>>>>> health care,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

> > >>>>>>>>> the client

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Regards,

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> -

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

> > >>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> was paltry.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

> > >>>>>>>>> gmail.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

> > >>>>>>>>>> know what a

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

> > >>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>> Julie

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

You're right, I can't be sure. But I can be reasonably sure. We both know our

profession and what acupuncture and acupuncturists can and cannot do and what

most are doing. The only one I know that is doing something " similar " is Dr.

Daryn Starwyn. But he doesn't do quite what I do.

 

 

 

Secondly, everything I do is with FDA approved Class II medical equipment and I

never break the skin when using them and there is absolutlely no damage that can

be done. Also, their use is within our scope of practice. Now tell me, what am

I doing that is breaking the law? Just because you don't understand something

does not mean any laws are broken.

 

 

 

Rife, on the other hand, was using unapproved equipment at a time when

penicillin was coming on the scene. The pharmaceutical/medical monopoly decided

they could make more money on drugs than on a " light device " that anyone could

buy once and use forever. There was no money in it and the equipment was not

approved. Mine is. I just happen to know how to use them.

 

 

 

Don Snow, DAOM, LAc

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Wed, 4 Mar 2009 16:07:30 +0000

> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

>

>

> Don,

>

> What you say may be true but let's not forget that those that deviate too far

from the norm, in healthcare, also increase their risks of liability. What they

are doing may not be recognized as standard practice and could jeopardize them.

Rife was an excellent example of this. It appears that you know some of his

history and how he was pushed out of his own profession. His was also a truth

seeker and he felt that he had this as well.

>

> How can you be so sure that others do not understand your ideas or even taken

them to another level?

>

> BTW, many practitioners have found ways to get great results and I continue to

learn from them. In the meantime, I have had good success with some interesting

conditions. I am glad that you are learning and developing new ideas as that is

what is needed. Please let me know if you decide to conduct seminars. Thanks

>

> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:27:53 -0600

> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> >

> >

> > Innovative people create new things all the time. Einstien, Pasteur, Royal

Rife, etc. When things are standardized, that means things never change because

change is not " standardized. "

> >

> >

> >

> > I can, indeed, protect my knowledge. I can just not teach it. I know others

are not doing what I do because they are not getting the results that I am

getting. I taught at one of the largest AOM schools in the U.S and I know the

results my peers were getting and the results I'm getting, and they weren't

really even close then and I've improved 110% since I've left. The equipment I

use is standardized and FDA approved, my methodology isn't. And if my

methodology is changed even " 10% " , the results will not be forthcoming. If the

results are not forthcoming, patients will not be coming forth, because what I

do is expensive and time consuming. But patients who come to me pay for results.

> >

> >

> >

> > That being said. I have a nice business making an income that less than 2%

of the population is making. And there aren't many acupuncturists that are doing

that. If one wants to make a million dollars, you don't ask someone that isn't

making that amount how to do it because if they knew how, they would be doing

it. Therefore, I have a way to make people better and create a nice income. I

can either keep it to myself, of find humble, trustworthy people to teach, which

is what I am trying to find.

> >

> >

> >

> > It is said that many martial artists withheld a piece of knowledge from

their students. After time that does water down the art. I believe that if

others knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get

well quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical

and a travesty. Therefore, I'm pretty sure no one else has the knowledge that I

found through much trial and error.

> >

> >

> >

> > That being said, people can believe what they will. But as for me, I'll

continue down my path. It has been said that what separates the extraorinary

person from the ordinary person is that the extraordinary person just does that

something a little extra.

> >

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > naturaldoc1

> > > Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:13:53 +0000

> > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > >

> > >

> > > Don,

> > > I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent.

I do find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing

unenforceable though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the

concepts and simply opening their own clinic up).

> > > In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of

uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of

intellectual property?

> > > I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not

much that is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say,

tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any

remuneration.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > >

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > don83407

> > > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600

> > > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I

don't see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there

are patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please

do not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I

have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's

fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already

exists. I own a proprietary methodology.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought

dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not

consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that

is not yours and making it yours.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > davidetoone

> > > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500

> > > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and

> > > > duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold

> > > > such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get

> > > > a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and

> > > > then they off free.

> > > >

> > > > David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac.

> > > >

> > > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

> > > >

> > > >>

> > > >> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place

> > > >> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I

> > > >> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10%

> > > >> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their

> > > >> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only

> > > >> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that,

> > > >> I would say that is a good deal for both of us.

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up.

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Sincerely,

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >>

> > > >> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > > >>

> > > >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>> naturaldoc1

> > > >>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000

> > > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Don,

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other

> > > >>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about

> > > >>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not

> > > >>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your

> > > >>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job

> > > >>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing.

> > > >>>

> > > >>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>> don83407

> > > >>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600

> > > >>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons:

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the

> > > >>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own

> > > >>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary

> > > >>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own.

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if

> > > >>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose

> > > >>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture

> > > >>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure

> > > >>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs

> > > >>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will

> > > >>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro

> > > >>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the

> > > >>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients

> > > >>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my

> > > >>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro

> > > >>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need

> > > >>>> both.

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> Hope this answers your questions.

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> Sincerely,

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>>> naturaldoc1

> > > >>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000

> > > >>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>>>> Don,

> > > >>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself

> > > >>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into

> > > >>>>> your clinic model.

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > > >>>>>

> > > >>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>>>> don83407

> > > >>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600

> > > >>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left

> > > >>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever

> > > >>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live

> > > >>>>>> there again if I can help it.

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership

> > > >>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been

> > > >>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the

> > > >>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is

> > > >>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater

> > > >>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do.

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc.

> > > >>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>>>>> naturaldoc1

> > > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000

> > > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Don,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are

> > > >>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be

> > > >>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking

> > > >>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc

> > > >>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain

> > > >>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended

> > > >>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address.

> > > >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified

> > > >>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon

> > > >>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have

> > > >>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the

> > > >>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>>>>> don83407

> > > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600

> > > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment

> > > >>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and

> > > >>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3

> > > >>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy

> > > >>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with

> > > >>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or

> > > >>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they

> > > >>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be

> > > >>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over

> > > >>>>>>> their salary.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic.

> > > >>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own

> > > >>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of

> > > >>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished

> > > >>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone

> > > >>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Chinese Medicine

> > > >>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym

> > > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800

> > > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the

> > > >>>>>>> resumes are pouring in.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

> > > >>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407

> > > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have

> > > >>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want

> > > >>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I

> > > >>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is

> > > >>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at

> > > >>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process.

> > > >>>>>>> I need another arm here.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Don,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Best,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> Kokko

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus <

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> -

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym%

> > > >>>>>>>> 40>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > > >>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth

> > > >>>>>>>> is different,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a

> > > >>>>>>>> cat japanese,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me,

> > > >>>>>>>> c'mon, I already

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not

> > > >>>>>>>> successful like you,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace

> > > >>>>>>>> brother.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com

> > > >>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @.

> > > >>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around

> > > >>>>>>>> giving

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain

> > > >>>>>>>> a busy

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped

> > > >>>>>>>> to sell to

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and

> > > >>>>>>>> busy practices

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching

> > > >>>>>>>> our peers. In

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often

> > > >>>>>>>> one must

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really

> > > >>>>>>>> required 3 to 6

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> inch needles.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a

> > > >>>>>>>> great deal of

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They

> > > >>>>>>>> used to take

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But

> > > >>>>>>>> insurance pays

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> for most of what I do.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Hope this helps,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big

> > > >>>>>>>> or small, of

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a

> > > >>>>>>>> while. But it was

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the

> > > >>>>>>>> patient had

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever

> > > >>>>>>>> they could

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws

> > > >>>>>>>> got tightened,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> I

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting

> > > >>>>>>>> too greedy

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> and

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They

> > > >>>>>>>> wouldn't come if

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time

> > > >>>>>>>> becuase no

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money

> > > >>>>>>>> anyway.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Still,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> it would make things grow.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from

> > > >>>>>>>> you. Of

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or

> > > >>>>>>>> inspire. The

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our

> > > >>>>>>>> little craft is

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I

> > > >>>>>>>> am taking

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a

> > > >>>>>>>> percentage. That

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I

> > > >>>>>>>> make around

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right

> > > >>>>>>>> out of school

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of

> > > >>>>>>>> days when s/he

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more

> > > >>>>>>>> money. It's a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are

> > > >>>>>>>> going to make

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to

> > > >>>>>>>> continue

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the

> > > >>>>>>>> experience

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> of

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> reality.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients

> > > >>>>>>>> come by word-of

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I

> > > >>>>>>>> buy radio,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive.

> > > >>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> new

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or

> > > >>>>>>>> stops

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> working,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> I change it.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside

> > > >>>>>>>> the box. You

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make

> > > >>>>>>>> $200-400 per

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of

> > > >>>>>>>> practice and I

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If

> > > >>>>>>>> they continue

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of

> > > >>>>>>>> practice. Again,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually

> > > >>>>>>>> unappreciated and

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> the

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you.

> > > >>>>>>>> I'll teach

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a

> > > >>>>>>>> written contract.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Sincerely,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Donald,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ...

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> How do you do it?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> K

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT)

> > > >>>>>>>> com> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the

> > > >>>>>>>>> patients. The sad

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> but

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the

> > > >>>>>>>>> patients to make

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an

> > > >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> around

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients

> > > >>>>>>>>> to stay busy

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> 8,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those

> > > >>>>>>>>> who don't or

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is

> > > >>>>>>>>> a good

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> deal.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that

> > > >>>>>>>>> exceed what

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end

> > > >>>>>>>>> of the

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> scale.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will

> > > >>>>>>>>> be different

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> than the median.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient

> > > >>>>>>>>> base. If you

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be

> > > >>>>>>>>> lucky to find

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>> a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all

> > > >>>>>>>>> master's level

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000

> > > >>>>>>>>> and $65,000

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for

> > > >>>>>>>>> health care,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether

> > > >>>>>>>>> the client

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> shows up or not.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Regards,

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> -

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Robert Chu

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @.

> > > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu?

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los

> > > >>>>>>>>> Angeles. It

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> was paltry.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@

> > > >>>>>>>>> gmail.

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote:

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to

> > > >>>>>>>>>> know what a

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd

> > > >>>>>>>>>> appreciate some

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>> Julie

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>

> > > >>>>>>>>>>

[Guest guest]

Okay everyone, lets wrap this conversation up. Dr. Snow has made his

offer, if anyone wants to discuss it further please contact him OFF

list.

 

Also, if people could please trim their messaged down when they are

responding, especially to ongoing threads, as it makes it very time

consuming to scroll down to the bottom to delete them.

 

Thank you,

 

Your List Owner

 

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote:

>

> You're right, I can't be sure. But I can be reasonably sure. We both know

> our profession and what acupuncture and acupuncturists can and cannot do and

> what most are doing. The only one I know that is doing something " similar "

> is Dr. Daryn Starwyn. But he doesn't do quite what I do.

>