The Soul / Shen / Hun etc.

October 12, 2007

Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body?

Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM?

EM

October 12, 2007

Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ?

Bob

www.acuherbals.com

establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the

body?

Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM?

EM

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

October 12, 2007

BoB,

Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a

religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of

CM in order to practice the medicine effectively?

EM

Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

artifact " ?

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

> Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that

survives the body?

>

> Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact

of CM?

>

> EM

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

>

October 12, 2007

BoB,

Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a

religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of

CM in order to practice the medicine effectively?

EM

Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

artifact " ?

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

> Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that

survives the body?

>

> Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact

of CM?

>

> EM

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

>

October 12, 2007

Hey Bob, haven't you heard? The techniques of CM work for unknown reasons that

WM will elucidate for us, but the whole theory of CM is a cultural artifact.

This should " force us to question ... whether learning the traditional [theory]

is superfluous. " (GERAC)

Hugo

" Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 12 October, 2007 4:57:32 AM

Re: Re: The Soul / Shen / Hun etc.

Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

artifact " ?

Bob

www.acuherbals. com

establishment_ man <establishment_ man > wrote:

Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the

body?

Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM?

EM

------------ --------- --------- ---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

October 12, 2007

Hi EM,

May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless when we

see some patients' or someone's interested.

My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical analysis

if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, then

sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is more

powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be appropriate

with time, environment and condition.

However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had never

talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know nothing

about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what they do.

If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) thoroughly

and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about

it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, the

healthy of individuals.

Nam Nguyen

October 12, 2007

Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is

necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to

practice the medical arts effectively.

EM

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

<dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

>

> Hi EM,

> May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

> I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless

when we

> see some patients' or someone's interested.

> My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

> themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical

analysis

> if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression,

then

> sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is

more

> powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be

appropriate

> with time, environment and condition.

> However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

> relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had

never

> talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know

nothing

> about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what

they do.

> If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun )

thoroughly

> and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about

> it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health,

the

> healthy of individuals.

>

> Nam Nguyen

>

October 12, 2007

I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where

does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit?

Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western

cultures?

On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote:

> Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is

> necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to

> practice the medical arts effectively.

>

> EM

>

> --- In

> Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

> >

> > Hi EM,

> > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

> > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless

> when we

> > see some patients' or someone's interested.

> > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

> > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical

> analysis

> > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression,

> then

> > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is

> more

> > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be

> appropriate

> > with time, environment and condition.

> > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

> > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had

> never

> > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know

> nothing

> > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what

> they do.

> > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun )

> thoroughly

> > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about

> > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health,

> the

> > healthy of individuals.

> >

> > Nam Nguyen

> >

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

October 12, 2007

Z'ev,

In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual'

concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that

survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in

Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual

theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of

Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po

merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death,

etc.

I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical

notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese

Medicine.

EM

-- In Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'.

Where

> does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit?

> Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as

Western

> cultures?

>

> On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote:

>

> > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is

> > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to

> > practice the medical arts effectively.

> >

> > EM

> >

> > --- In

> > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi EM,

> > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

> > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless

> > when we

> > > see some patients' or someone's interested.

> > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

> > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical

> > analysis

> > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or

depression,

> > then

> > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is

> > more

> > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be

> > appropriate

> > > with time, environment and condition.

> > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

> > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I

had

> > never

> > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know

> > nothing

> > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not

what

> > they do.

> > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun )

> > thoroughly

> > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear

about

> > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is

health,

> > the

> > > healthy of individuals.

> > >

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

October 12, 2007

Hi Guys,

IMHO the translation of Hun Po Zhi Yi & Shen in relation to the translation

is: 'Spirit' and not 'Spiritual', therefore in my understanding not

religious. I think it is the western misunderstanding of spirit here.

Gordon.

On 10/12/07, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where

> does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit?

> Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western

> cultures?

>

> On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote:

>

> > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is

> > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to

> > practice the medical arts effectively.

> >

> > EM

> >

> > --- In

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi EM,

> > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

> > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless

> > when we

> > > see some patients' or someone's interested.

> > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

> > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical

> > analysis

> > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression,

> > then

> > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is

> > more

> > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be

> > appropriate

> > > with time, environment and condition.

> > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

> > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had

> > never

> > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know

> > nothing

> > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what

> > they do.

> > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun )

> > thoroughly

> > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about

> > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health,

> > the

> > > healthy of individuals.

> > >

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

October 12, 2007

I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other ist or ism to

be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an understanding of the whole

system and concepts of yin and yang, hun, po, shen, qi ....how can we treat

mental illness without understanding shen and what affects it, does evil wind

exist? why do the teeth get loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western

science can only explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that some

correlations can be drawn between east and west...but stick to TCM...I do

simplify when talking to patients and sometimes say in western med it might be

called this....in TCM we have another name for it....I don't sit there and try

and explain organ spirital aspects to folks. Besides do I need to be christian

to study and understand the christian religion or muslim to understand Islam. I

have enjoyed studying religions of many faiths and find them wonderful. For my

medicine I'll stick with TCM. Its interesting

that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are christian, jew,

pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I don't even know about.....

Bob

www.acuherbals.com

establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

BoB,

Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a

religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of

CM in order to practice the medicine effectively?

EM

Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

artifact " ?

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

> Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that

survives the body?

>

> Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact

of CM?

>

> EM

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

>

October 12, 2007

Bob,

It's an interesting subject. I think there is a distinction to be

drawn between tangible and empirical findings (like loose teeth

during pregnancy) and intangible claims such as an ethereal soul

that survives death.

I agree that it is all very interesting and appreciate your attitude

of Viva La Difference! But I think there are some TCM

fundamentalists who place a blind faith in the classics of both TCM

and Taoist philosophy. While I think that some symptom patterns are

very clear and logical, like " Liver Wind " leads to tremors, spasms,

and numbness for example - other claims of CM do not seem as clear,

like the idea of a consciousness that survives death.

EM

Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other

ist or ism to be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an

understanding of the whole system and concepts of yin and yang, hun,

po, shen, qi ....how can we treat mental illness without

understanding shen and what affects it, does evil wind exist? why do

the teeth get loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western

science can only explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that

some correlations can be drawn between east and west...but stick to

TCM...I do simplify when talking to patients and sometimes say in

western med it might be called this....in TCM we have another name

for it....I don't sit there and try and explain organ spirital

aspects to folks. Besides do I need to be christian to study and

understand the christian religion or muslim to understand Islam. I

have enjoyed studying religions of many faiths and find them

wonderful. For my medicine I'll stick with TCM. Its interesting

> that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are

christian, jew, pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I

don't even know about.....

>

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

> BoB,

>

> Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM

a

> religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims

of

> CM in order to practice the medicine effectively?

>

> EM

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde,

AP,

> Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote:

> >

> > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

> artifact " ?

> > Bob

> > www.acuherbals.com

> >

> > establishment_man <establishment_man@> wrote:

> > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that

> survives the body?

> >

> > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact

> of CM?

> >

> > EM

> >

> > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

> >

October 12, 2007

Bob,

Taoist, Buddist, or Christian is a way of life. Each philosophy is

tremendously helpful in our society, not just in one individual himself.

These philosophies will bring us, the families, the nation together

as a team and produce a living harmony depend on how they were put in

practice and into each life. Some people are so desperate, their lives

in a mess, nothing could help , but in strong belief their distresses

are completely dissolved. But when we put them ( philosophies ) in

applications we must use some strong verses in short, not lengthy , to

turn themselves our patients into a happiness environment.

Let's look at this story :

I had a couples ( man 78, lady 68 ) came into my office for

psychiatric care. They have had a problem for years and are under

psychiatric care for more than 6 years. Medications were given but

problemes had never been solved. This MD, in the same office building

with mine, asked me if I could treat these couples.

They are husband and wife for more than 40 years. They love each

other and care for each other very much. Somehow, they argued and got

angry at each other all the times. They played cards in their pleasure

time. After playing a few hours the winner irritated the loser by

giving provocative unpleasant words and this party turned a warm

loving atmosphere into a hostile environment. They became far apart

for awhile and then rejoined. These continuous activities turned both

of them into distress and depress daily and they finally sook medical

for help.

After hearing the story, I said, " I can cure this couples within a

few treatments. " At this time I must use the philosophy " Chritian

verse, the Bible " . Facing them, I asked both " Do you believe in GOD

? " , both replied " Yes! " . I assured them " Only this can cure both

of you, and for sure this problem will never reoccur. "

There is one thing you folks, both of you, have done wrong. This is

why this problem has never been solved. If you believe in GOD, you

must obey his command " LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR ! " . If you do not love

your wife nor your husband, how do you love your neighbor ??? How ?

How ?........

The card game is a thing we can enjoy and by playing with it. We

can control it. It does not control our lives or our relationship. If

this occurs, you both have turned a thing into a monster in your

family. REMEMBER, the cards playing should produce a productive or

quality time when you are together. Help him or her to come at least

equal or above you. In game the winner must encourage the loser to do

better or somehow helps him or her to improve chances to win. This

makes the game become more exciting instead of inciting a hostile

manner. With this I call " LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR " . Never makes your

neighbor feels contempt or debased or lower than yourself. This I call

" a TRUE LOVE " .

After the analysis of a story, they thanked me and promised they

would change their attitudes in games. From there, a happily life

returned............ They come and visit my office once in a while.

No more distress nor depress and particularly no more medication just

after one visit.

SEE ... SEE ... SEE ... Words can bring life back.

Thanks everybody.

Nam Nguyen

Hey Bob,

How about this ???? And what do you think my friends, TCM ?

I have an idea " Why don't we rename our TCM or recreate a new name

for ourselves instead of carry an old name TCM "

First, I see TCM has been slowly changed and its recognition is

somehow moving along with it. With a new name we may be caught the

attention in a new way ?

For me I will rename it TCMM " Traditional Chinese Mixed Medicine

" . What it means to ourselves or to a public that we are not pure TCM

but it has gone through some adaption and changes of our friend WM

theory and pathology in diagnostic and preventional measures, but

somehow , the treatments will retain it flavors and recipes or in

combination.

Nam Nguyen

Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote:

>

> I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other

ist or ism to be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an

understanding of the whole system and concepts of yin and yang, hun,

po, shen, qi ....how can we treat mental illness without understanding

shen and what affects it, does evil wind exist? why do the teeth get

loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western science can only

explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that some correlations

can be drawn between east and west...but stick to TCM...I do simplify

when talking to patients and sometimes say in western med it might be

called this....in TCM we have another name for it....I don't sit there

and try and explain organ spirital aspects to folks. Besides do I need

to be christian to study and understand the christian religion or

muslim to understand Islam. I have enjoyed studying religions of many

faiths and find them wonderful. For my medicine I'll stick with TCM.

Its interesting

> that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are

christian, jew, pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I

don't even know about.....

>

> Bob

> www.acuherbals.com

>

> establishment_man <establishment_man wrote:

> BoB,

>

> Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a

> religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of

> CM in order to practice the medicine effectively?

>

> EM

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP,

> Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote:

> >

> > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural

> artifact " ?

> > Bob

> > www.acuherbals.com

> >

> > establishment_man <establishment_man@> wrote:

> > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that

> survives the body?

> >

> > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact

> of CM?

> >

> > EM

> >

> > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

> >

October 13, 2007

I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside of

their cultural context, but they can be applied at different levels,

such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five yin

viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all

possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not dismiss

them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own

minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of Chinese

medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to reject

anything outright.

On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote:

> Z'ev,

>

> In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual'

> concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that

> survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in

> Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual

> theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of

> Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po

> merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death,

> etc.

>

> I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical

> notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese

> Medicine.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

October 13, 2007

Dear Establishment,

The problem with splitting off the hun, et al is that there is no real division

in CM between material and immaterial, or physical and spiritual. All is matter,

made of qi that is variably dense or subtle. All of the entities in question are

working parts of the theoretical framework that CM evolves from, they all " take

up space " as substances, hence there needing to be " housed " in body parts,

whether that is the viscera themselves, the bony joints as some daoist texts

would have it. For the most part there is little to no dwelling on the final

disposition of these entities in CM literature, though there is plenty of it in

Daoist literature. I don't think I have ever seen a reference in CM literature

to a soul surviving death (I don't think the Confucians who composed much of the

material had time for such maunderings), the closest thing would be the Shen

Nong Ben Cao's use of the term " make the body light " in reference to medicinals

that promote a more yang/rarified nature and promote immortality. I'm sure such

nuggets exist in Sun Si Miao's work as well, but my Chinese isn't up to it yet.

From a clinical standpoint I don't think the eternal, or post mortem,

destination of the shen, et al, is relevant, or very problematic. I don't know

about you, but my job tends to end way before that point. The functional nature

of those parts however are important, and can serve as useful guideposts in

diagnostic thinking and in the formulation of treatments. While the divisions of

consciousness, personality and vegetal functions is to some extent arbitrary, as

are most assignments of attributes and functions in CM, it is based on observed

phenomena and it can be a useful tool when thinking about how thought processes

and bodily functions such as sleep are impaired by disease.

Does it help one's practice to have Buddhist or Daoist leanings? I don't know...

being overly Cartesian doesn't help, does it?

Take care,

Par Scott

-

establishment_man

Chinese Medicine

Friday, October 12, 2007 2:20 PM

Re: The Soul / Shen / Hun etc.

Z'ev,

In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual'

concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that

survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in

Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual

theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of

Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po

merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death,

etc.

I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical

notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese

Medicine.

EM

-- In Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'.

Where

> does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit?

> Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as

Western

> cultures?

>

> On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote:

>

> > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is

> > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to

> > practice the medical arts effectively.

> >

> > EM

> >

> > --- In

> > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 "

> > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi EM,

> > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ?

> > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless

> > when we

> > > see some patients' or someone's interested.

> > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of

> > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical

> > analysis

> > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or

depression,

> > then

> > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is

> > more

> > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be

> > appropriate

> > > with time, environment and condition.

> > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine,

> > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I

had

> > never

> > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know

> > nothing

> > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not

what

> > they do.

> > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun )

> > thoroughly

> > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear

about

> > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is

health,

> > the

> > > healthy of individuals.

> > >

> > > Nam Nguyen

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

October 13, 2007

Hi all... I believe we are on the western dualism thing now. CM is

explicit in its statements regarding the spirit, emotions and body and

the place of all of these in the world. Can anyone show us the dividing

lines? CM says there are none.

All of this is one thing, choosing

what to communicate to a px on a case-by-case basis is something else.

And let's not throw " religion " into the mix

because /that/ would certainly be projecting western values onto CM.

Hugo

_________

Switch an email account to Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets.

http://uk.mail.

October 13, 2007

Hugo,

I would not to want to make the theories and ideas of CM

a 'religous'discussion, but......there are many aspects of CM that

do seem to encompass the domain of religion. Two things particular

come to mind, the notion of a soul that survives death, and the

tendency to blindly accept as truth things that were written a long

time ago (without demanding that these statements stand up to any

kind of scrutiny).

I think that we could agree that these two aspects of CM maintain

characteristics of religion.

Many of the aspects of TCM's 'spirits' seem like rich metaphors to

explain the behavior of the body's systems and the interaction of

the body with pathogens. But, are we to take these things literally?

Do practitioners out there believe that these spirits literally

exist? And that some of them may transport an individual's

consciousness from this world to another? Or from this body to

another body?

Or, are the spirits more metaphoric - akin to the CM idea of " Wind, "

which is a useful image to describe the interaction of the body with

a pathogen, but not necessarily meant as the literal presence of

wind inside of the body.

What say you TCM community? Are the " spirits " actual entities, or

metaphoric descriptions of natural phenomena?

EM

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Hi all... I believe we are on the western dualism thing now. CM is

> explicit in its statements regarding the spirit, emotions and body

and

> the place of all of these in the world. Can anyone show us the

dividing

> lines? CM says there are none.

> All of this is one thing, choosing

> what to communicate to a px on a case-by-case basis is something

else.

> And let's not throw " religion " into the mix

> because /that/ would certainly be projecting western values onto

CM.

> Hugo

>

> _________

> Switch an email account to Mail, you could win FIFA World

Cup tickets. http://uk.mail.

>

October 13, 2007

One only has to read the classics to know that this IS chinese

medicine. The materialists pulled much of the spiritual connotations

out, but the fact is that any practitioner of chinese medicine

throughout history would have utilised these concepts to one degree or

another depending on their own development.

The concept of the little Dao applies, you do not treat people just to

get them well, you do it because you have the opportunity to do it,

because you understand that it is more than you. If you are not

cultivating yourself, you are not, as far as the classics indicate,

truly practicing chinese medicine. These concepts give focus to how

one can go about becoming not only a better practitioner but a better

human.

Tymothy

Chinese Medicine , " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside of

> their cultural context, but they can be applied at different levels,

> such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five yin

> viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all

> possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not dismiss

> them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own

> minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of Chinese

> medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to reject

> anything outright.

>

> On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual'

> > concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that

> > survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in

> > Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual

> > theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of

> > Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po

> > merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death,

> > etc.

> >

> > I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical

> > notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese

> > Medicine.

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

October 13, 2007

Tymothy,

This is part of the question I am raising. Are the 'classics'

intrinsicly correct. We know (more or less) what they say, but does

their very existence render them correct?

If we look at your average pre-industrial science or medical textbook

from one or two thousand years ago, how reliable should we assume

that data to be?

Much of the material of the classics holds up in clinical practice

to this day, but I am not so sure about all of the mechanisms and

assumptions that underly the theories of CM.

And I am especially apprehensive about accepting these ideas as fact

simply because they were written down a long time ago by people in a

far away land. This type of acceptence seems to me to border on

religious faith, and blurs the line between medicine and religion.

EM

Chinese Medicine , " miracles28 "

<jellyphish wrote:

>

> One only has to read the classics to know that this IS chinese

> medicine. The materialists pulled much of the spiritual

connotations

> out, but the fact is that any practitioner of chinese medicine

> throughout history would have utilised these concepts to one

degree or

> another depending on their own development.

> The concept of the little Dao applies, you do not treat people

just to

> get them well, you do it because you have the opportunity to do it,

> because you understand that it is more than you. If you are not

> cultivating yourself, you are not, as far as the classics indicate,

> truly practicing chinese medicine. These concepts give focus to how

> one can go about becoming not only a better practitioner but a

better

> human.

> Tymothy

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev

Rosenberg "

> <zrosenbe@> wrote:

> >

> > I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside

of

> > their cultural context, but they can be applied at different

levels,

> > such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five

yin

> > viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all

> > possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not

dismiss

> > them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own

> > minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of

Chinese

> > medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to

reject

> > anything outright.

> >

> > On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote:

> >

> > > Z'ev,

> > >

> > > In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual'

> > > concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness

that

> > > survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a

soul in

> > > Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual

> > > theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type

of

> > > Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po

> > > merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives

death,

> > > etc.

> > >

> > > I just wonder if acupuncturists to these

philosophical

> > > notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying

Chinese

> > > Medicine.

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

October 14, 2007

Dear, Em, Timothy and Hugo,

Soul , Hun and Po I know none of them, but when I heart of it

triggers my memory in either of physics or chemistry. Here is my

picture. I am sorry to have some views at some angles similar in religion.

In my 5 normal senses ( 5 elements ) I can see the world exist in

3 stages ( solid, liquid and gas ), but it may offer more stages, but

my intellectual could not break further beyond these stages. In our

world , 3 dimension, I can see only living things in solid ( us,

plants, animals… ) in liquid ( fish… ) in gas ( bacteria and

viruses or smaller organism or very large things as stars, planets

and galaxy ). Some people may refer gas as invisible form of living

things ( as ghost )… In each world of 3 , there are so many things I

have never seen and I do not think they are existing. I am in a bottom

of a very small well, know nothing outside of a well. But in this well

I think I know all things and I believe all things are only in this

well to the level of my eyes or up to the level at the peak or my

raised hands, others, to me ,are phantomized... Is this indicated that

I have a closed mind ? Yes, indeed!

In religion such as in Buddah, the Buddists have a wider vision

seeing the world in 7 different stages which in my intuition is 3… You

can go on and help me on this if one of you can. I may stop here for

my knowledge is limited in this subject " a man in a bottom of a very

small well " .

Let' look at our bodies : Our bodies composed of all cells in

skin, muscles, tendons, ligaments, blood, plasma, bones, marrow, hair,

nails, brain… Those cells are exactly identical in structures and were

made from our DNA. Each of them has his own functions and life span

according to his environment. Some cells are replacing in days, others

in months, in years and some will never be replaced until our death.

In some tissues as our skin, skin cells are replacing I mean

replacing, not dying. Is this what Hugo meant, the soul never

dies?????? In WM we call those dying cells are replacing by new

cells. Replacing means taking the job or functions of old ones. The

old ones go away and be assigned to do something else, who knows? But

what make decision to replace or not to replace our old cells? Our DNA.

In our world I believe we are in human body displaying a solid

form. In this form we compose of liquids and gasses, such as ice,

water and steam ). The fact is ice can be melt into water, and into

steam and vice versa. According to the law of conservation, they are

not destroyed.

In our health prevention or treatment, should we look at the solid

matter as a sole treatment such as in WM? Of course, not ! We must

inspect all in 3 forms ( the body, the nourishment –nourishment , and

the activities ). The most important of the 3 is the activities " the

most YANG, the shen " in a living thing. The clear mind of a patient

is so important -the awareness of the environment. There are so many

healthy, influential and affluent individuals who do not want to live

anymore… We must come up with a treatment. There are people who are so

poor or being so oppressed refuse to live, and others. We are talking

about healthy individuals who are denying to continue to live.

If we do not have any idea about helping the healthy individuals

to regain their statuses, how can we help the sick, ill or the disease

??? I think some of us have missed this point ( the YANG, living soul

or energy ) in their practice. We should look and study about our

patients, not just to know them. To study, I mean to understand their

activities and their lifestyles.

Thanks,

Nam Nguyen

October 15, 2007

A very interesting topic...

Let's take a look at something that has been going around for a long

time: a soul surviving death. If a soul is energy, qi, or however else

you want to describe it, then this can apply:

> Energy exists in many forms, such as heat, light, chemical energy, and

> electrical energy. Energy is the ability to bring about change or to

> do work. Thermodynamics is the study of energy.

If so, then this has to apply:

> First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to

> another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of

> energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing

> from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics

> (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be

> created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one

> form into another.

(taken from

http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html)

But then we would have to believe in a soul and an afterlife, if there

is no destruction, this qi has to go somewhere else and fire up some

other organism or do something else because it cannot be there innert

(and then we get into reicarnation). But if there is no soul, what is it

that makes the difference between a living and a dead organism. I mean

you can take different bodyparts and stich them together but in contrary

to Dr Frankenstein you won't end up with a monster walking around, just

a body made up of different parts. This applies to every living organism

-that means that animals also have eternal souls-. This might sound very

far fetched...but can you prove it wrong without going into religion and

dogma? (maybe ancient philosophers were more advanced in the matters of

science than what we think)

I believe medicine is the study of energy, i believe traditional

medicines are very scientific, if some one doesn't like the terminology,

they can change it, it's only a word and it's not going to affect

anything. You either have energy or don't, but it is not yang or yin, it

is simply energy, you might want to call it thermal (is the persons body

warm?), kinetic (is he/she -or organs- moving?), potential (big waist

line?)- The lack of energy somewhere doesn't mean that it is yin, it

simply means that there is a lack of energy. There is no yin and yang,

there is simply one, they are not in contadiction, yin and yang are only

two words to try to explain this world, this experience, and it is such

a good terminology, that has been around for thousands of years...i

would like to see if chimotherapy lasts that long. Yin and yang is one,

not two as a coin has a head and a tail, you cannot separate them, and

if you were able to slice a coin right through the middle you would

still have two faces, another yin and another yang.

As therapists, doctors, healers...we should be looking for that energy

is the body hot, is the body moving, does the heart have energy, is the

brain sending and receiving electrical impulses, and only when there is

an inbalance on one of the sides of the coins, then we can notice it.

The lack of yin does not mean that there is yang or the lck of yang does

not mean that there is yin, it simply says that there is a lack of and

" lack of " does not mean that there is yin, because for it to be yin it

needs to be there, not to be non existant. Yin and yang are only names

to describe the quality of the energy, but it has to be there to be

named, if not, how can you name it?

All medicines are related to science, they are all correct, some are

simply more brute than others, like trying to eliminate sinus by opening

up the patients face and clean with a drill, instead of changing the

person's diet and prescribing some plants that loosen up the mucus, or

eliminating hemorroids by cutting them out... Hey, but this world,

mainstram lifestiles have become way too yang and solutions are needed

quickly...and of course don't take a person with a knife stab or a gun

shot wound to the acupunturist.

I believe 99.9% of our diseases and maladies are due to the body not

following the mind that in turn is not following the soul, in toher

words: if you let yourself be driven by the materialistic side of life,

you wioll never be at ease, there is always another party to go to,

another person to have sex with, a bigger/faster car, a hotter

woman/man, a new outfit to buy, another animal to kill to eat and

satisfy for maybe 20 minutes your taste buds. This lifestyle doesn't

bring peace and harmony to your mind, your emotions will go unbalanced

and this will cause organ disfunction wichin turn will make you feel

worse and make your organs more unbalanced . Everything has to do with

the soul, has to do with emotions, i believe happiness goes hand in

hand with spirituality -not necessary religion, but if that helps...- I

don't think the important part of my existance is my physical side and

the material objects i can collect before i pass away -it makes life

more comfortable, but not necessary easier or clearer (have you ever

heard of a rock star or a movie star commiting suicide or going to rehab

centers?). Having said this, i don't believe any medicine heals or cures

anybody, i believe we give the " patient " a relief of symptoms until

he/she can take control of his/her emotions and starts healing from the

inside out, from the more yang to the more yin, from the emotional side

to the physical one, that means that the " patient " is not " patient " , but

" actient " (from active) or a " doer " (to speak better English) because

he/she is the one who has the most difficult work, set emotions in order

find a true calling and stabilize his/her life, otherwise the root of

the problem will still be there and he/she will be going to doctors

(modern or traditional) to be trated for different problems.

Just a thought before going to sleep

Juan

--

October 15, 2007

Juan,

You 've brought up an interesting law of thermoldynamics, a physics.

Juan , if you believe in Buddah, you may have heard that there are 7

different worlds ( 7 phases )in our universe. This is an old vision of

Buddah's perception-an art or advanced science. But as I look and

think, there are more, perhaps. Let's see this.

In our world we have touched so many subjects in energy. In each

energy I believe it may impose a world of its own. The strange thing

is I see 9 individual worlds instead of 7. Perhaps, Buddah has said 9,

I do not remember precisely. Here, they are : Electrical, Heat "

thermo " , sound, sight, chemical, light, water, mechanical, and

magnetism. There maybe more...

These energies can be transformed one into another or into

combination, but never be destroyed.

I our bodies possess all kinds of energies above and they are in

constant changed " transformation " . Energies come in and out of our

bodies in one or many forms and leave our bodies in different form or

forms. When we die it is said that we give up the ghost, or give up

the spirit " the breath of life " . This spirit in " invisible " energy

form had been transformed into different form leaving our bodies for

other important functions ??? The time is up, you must leave the body.

Is this the same as we inhale Oxygen, this Oxygen has its function

to nourish our bodies and at the same time it comes out at the same

gate as Carbon dioxide, but it can escape from other exits as mouth,

skin, ear, upper, or lower orifices ? It comes out not on its own, not

by its own's will, but with the will of other's the Carbon and other

Oxy ? They are stronger in combination and in power; they force you "

the living soul -Oxy " out... This CO2 not a dead substance. It has

its functions to nourish other things such as trees, plants or other

organisms or it will return to the same place where it was in our

universe such as gasses in the beginning and wait to join others to

produce different form of life " a rebirth " in different figure ???

Why are we touching about this kind of energy " or the soul " ? I

think it is important to know that the KEY is if we can conserve the

energy within a body, there is no death........ And the energy in life

and in our bodies exist not only in thermo, but in combination of the

9 worlds.

Again, thanks to Juan for reminding me of the importance of energy,

the laws of thermo + dyanmics = thermodynamics.

Nam Nguyen

October 15, 2007

Buddha Shakyamuni talked about 6 realms of existance, i think that is

what you are referring to

In the other hand you say

> I think it is important to know that the KEY is if we can conserve the

> energy within a body, there is no death....

Death as society and we emotionally understand it is physically

impossible, for the soul being energy cannot be destroyed, anmd if it

cannot be destroyed how can anyone say it died? The body decomposes and

breaks down into elements which -if not buried in a metal coffin- will

eventually nourish the soil and become part of trees, fruits, grass,

worms wich in turn are eaten by birds and many other animals and/or

insects. Someone will eventually eatr that fruit and some of the

elements that belonged to a body are now part of a new human host. So

where is death? I see only life, energy transfroming from one state to

another one, is this not life? The problem is that we cannot conserve

the energy within the body, it is impossible to do that because

everything is in constant change as the I-Ching states, and as days go

by, our bodies become less energy efficient, just like a car o a cell

phone. All our bodies are just recycling matter, they are cars for our

souls, and the important part is the driver, not the car, the driver has

the personality and the car ill simply obey the driver, of course there

are different types of cars designed for different things, just like our

bodies.

I am currently treating a young man who is in my country working for a

transnational company. He was sent here to work for a couple of years.

He was sad and thinking that he should not be here, but somewhere

" better " . This emotion makes him unhappy, and considering he has to work

long hours he has a lot of stress and since he has to work on a

computer, his neck obviously suffers the consequences of everything. He

has a lot of static blood in his back just where the foot taiyang

channel runs through. Cupping and blood letting is neccessary to relieve

him, but the real medicine if for him to make the best of his stay,

enjoy himself, travel, go to the beach, to the mountains, hike, do

yoga, tai-chi. When his emotions get balanced, his body won't suffer.

This is the power of shen, but for this to happen, it is necessary

for him to look around and connect with his inner self, realize that it

is unhealthy to attach to forms and to ideas. But the innerself, his

real self, his soul is much more than that, it is much more than qi or

energy eventhough it is energy, this energy cannot be transformed, and i

don't have the words to describe it...

Funny thing is science tries to describe this beautiful universe so that

we can try to understand it, just like ancient philosophers tried to do

it aor like ancient religions and societies with their particular

cosmovision. Humans are so silly, spending their life collecting objects

just to leave them behind once they pass away and always trying to

understand what life is intead of living it.

Juan

--

October 15, 2007

Juan,

The young man you described in a stressful environment is a typical

ample of other thousands or millions of people in everywhere of the

world.

This sample person's view and mind pictured a negative thought

which in turn has turned or transformed all chemicals in the brain

and his body to work in negative responses.

Let's say I strongly hate dirts and dirty environment, but I live

in a dirty damp pond environment, or I am being forced to live in it

or played in a damp pond... What are my reactions and what will I

become??? I could have the same picture as this young man. All

negative works, feelings, angers, distress, suicide attempts could

happen to me because of all chemicals, electricals, mechanical...

from my sight are at work- a destructive form of energy- trying to

force my living or positive out of my body. As you mentioned earlier,

This energy cannot be converted nor transformed. Yes, indeed , if I

am not leaving the existing environment, things get worse. However,

there is a change because of I-ching... The world is in constant

change. In this case, the destructive energy can be transformed into

another good living energy again if I am relocating into a positive,

happy environment I call this a recharging of a battery.

In a new environment, if my mind, sight and soun and happy

environment are constantly feeding into my brain, these existing

chemicals, electricals, mechanicals, and sound energies must be

transformed into a new postive energy to do their proper tasks

required by DNA. This will improve my life and I will feel like a

champ... Why I said this? Because all energies can be transformed

from one form into another, they do not remain constant. If they do

life does not exist.

Nam Nguyen

P.S Life does end because the transformation of energy. It ends in

one physical body, but it starts a new life in a new body it forms

> I am currently treating a young man who is in my country working

for a

> transnational company. He was sent here to work for a couple of

years.

> He was sad and thinking that he should not be here, but somewhere

> " better " . This emotion makes him unhappy, and considering he has to

work

> long hours he has a lot of stress and since he has to work on a

> computer, his neck obviously suffers the consequences of

everything. The real medicine if for him to make the best of his

stay,

> enjoy himself, travel, go to the beach, to the mountains, hike, do

> yoga, tai-chi. When his emotions get balanced, his body won't

suffer.

> This is the power of shen, but for this to happen, it is

necessary for him to look around and connect with his inner self,

realize that it is unhealthy to attach to forms and to ideas. But the

innerself, his real self, his soul is much more than that, it is much

more than qi or energy eventhough it is energy, this energy cannot be

transformed, and i don't have the words to describe it...

October 15, 2007

I totally agree with you, you can relocate, sometimes it is the best

easiest and fastest solution. But what happens if it is not possible?

are we then going to live in hell or maybe learn, adapt and make the

best out of the circumstances, thus not living then in hell, but in

another realm. And here the conversation gets more complicated, the six

realms of existance which include heaven, hell. Why am i introducing

this new elements? because when a person is in a terrible place for

him/her and the emotions are those of suffering, attachment, anger,

hatred, we can say that person is living in hell, but if the person can

learn, adapt and have feelings of forgiveness of understanding this

person, regardless his enviroment can start leaving hell and start

entering heaven and we say he/she lives a blissful life.

I remember my TCM master, he always told us that TCM is not only

needles and moxa and cupping and plants, but helping withg words, call

it verbal therapy, and in my experience i have seen that sometimes the

right words do a lot more than planst needles, moxa or modern medicine

because we have been able to touch the root of the suffering, and this

creates motion, a different point of view which changes the feelings and

in turn changes the chemical balance of the brain and the rest of the

body. Modern science calls this " placebo " , i believe it is the result of

connecting with someone's emotions and not feeling alone anymore, the

power of love.

If there is to be healing, it has to be integral, on the 3 levels

Heaven, Man and Earth (heaven: the soul, man: feelings and emotions,

earth, the body), otherwise it is not healing, just patching up until it

breaks down again, it is not useless though, it gives the person a

chance to work on the Man and Heaven levels, so total healing can occur.

Seldom do i see those cases, but when i do, it makes it all worth while

Juan

--

Sign In

The Soul / Shen / Hun etc.

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