A case in point

[Guest guest]

David,

 

Interconnection of our environment and our biology should be apparent and

something

that comes from our TCM/OM heritage. To fail to see the smoking gun, sorry for

the

analogy, is a big mistake. What I was mentioning is that as more and more toxic

chemicals are affecting our health and that includes reproduction, just an FYI.

 

Many of these act as xeno-estrogens which mimic estrogen and can affect both

partners. For men, it has the affect of lowering testosterone levels. Our

environment

is telling us that things are not working right and it shows up in the animal

kingdom.

 

You can definitely try to treat this on a singular level but that really does

not change

the real issue. I made the parallel of toxins to infertility to rich company as

that is where

things need to change. We can be a force for change or not. Mike W. Bowser, L

Ac

 

 

: acuprof:

Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:21:20 +0000Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

Mike,I am not an environmentalist. I am sympathetic to the cause of

environmentalism, and sensitive to the very real dangers that are posed by

global warming, but I cannot see how that possibly bears any relationship to my

professional purpose. I am not a lobbyist, a politician or an activist. Did I

miss some part of the hypocratic oath? The part where it said that doctors have

to be green?You said, " We need to become more involved with being more green and

getting this message out there. You do understand that global warming is real,

don't you? " While I can understand that this is a very compelling message and

something that you personally feel strongly about, can you explainexactly why as

an acupuncturist, I " need to become more involved? " David K--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

wrote:>> David,> " I pointed these things out (wouldn't the offspring of

affluent, educated parents be more likely to contribute to the solution...)

somewhat mockingly. My point is that we are not capable of making such a

judgement. " > > What judgement? Many of the so-called rich own the very

companies> that seek to destroy our environment, which leads us down the

reproductive> path and no more children. We need to become more involved with

being> more green and getting this message out there. You do understand that>

global warming is real, don't you?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > > To:

Chinese Medicine: acuprof: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:19:24

+0000Re: A case in point> > > > > Mike,I pointed these things out

(wouldn't the offspring of affluent, educated parents be more likely to

contribute to the solution...) somewhat mockingly. My point is that we are not

capable of making such a judgement. I think it would be a horrible violation of

ethics to look at every infertile couple that approaches us for medical help,

and to try to make some kind of assessment or prediction about what

contributions their offspring might make (or not make) to the social problems

that grip our world. First of all, we have no way to make such predictions. And

secondly - even if we did, is it up to us as acupuncturists to use that

" information " as a guage of whether we will or will not treat such patients?This

is a very slippery slope. Once these kinds of assessments are mingled into our

choice of which patients to accept and which one's we reject, where does it end?

Should we cease to treat Jews who struggle with infertility because of the

likelyhood that their offspring will further contribute to the global menace of

Jewiness?Should we refuse care to the rich because their offspring are

predisposed to make worse the problems of Richiness?My point is that these are

not our judgements to make. I help people. If people want to have children and

there is no discernable medical reason why they should not, I try to help them

get what they most want. If there is a medical risk, I try to learn as much as I

can so that I can best educate them about what potential risks are involved.

David KarchmerChinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> Nice to know about the possible DAOM at Yosan.

Are you planning to enroll?> > You mentioned, " wouldn't the offspring of

affluent, educated (but infertile) parents be more likely to contribute to the

solution than would the offspring of poor, uneducated, single parents? " > >

Actually my response to this is that affluence and industrialization are major>

contributors to much of our pollution and health problems. Be careful> with who

you choose to endorse. The rich tend to be overly willing> to indulge in

excesses and those who are poor deficiency, at least > that is how it appears to

be. > > Lastly, I guess I am a bit surprised that you claim not to have a>

philosophy about our medicine and its place in our culture. As > ethics is

guided by philosophy, I am deeply concerned about this> attitude and what I am

hearing. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>

________> Kick back and relax

with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Café.>

http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline> > [Non-text portions

of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > >

________> Can you find the

hidden words? Take a break and play Seekadoo!>

http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink> > [Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]>

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™

Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.

http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM\

_mini_5G_0907

 

 

[Guest guest]

David,

 

Your focus all along has been upon pregnancy as your

determiner for success and not simply personal or societal

health, yes there is such a thing.

 

Focus and intent are important and do tell if we are a

technician or much more. I happen to think we are

much more. So, I never got any response to why

you are not enrolled in the DAOM (women health)?Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: acuprof:

Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:14:36 +0000Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

Mike,I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this one. I have stated

repeatedly that my approach to helping people with reproductive health is to

educate them about their options and risks, and to apply the principles of TCM

to optimize health. Which part of that violates the " spirit " of our medicine or

negatively impacts the environment or society?David K--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1

wrote:>> David,> > You can keep throwing gas on a fire to keep it going also.

That does not> mean it is the right thing to do. As your focus is mainly on

getting women> pregnant you may be blinded to what I am simply saying.

Connecting> birth to success does not equal patient health. Mike W. Bowser, L

Ac> > > : acuprof: Thu, 13 Sep 2007

14:52:17 +0000Re: A case in point> > > > > Mike,My practice is

about 95% fertility related cases. Our goals for treatment are closely tied to

reproductive outcomes. As a practitioner of CM, I find that the factors that

inhibit conception or full term pregnancy are the results of meridian/organ

imbalances. In such cases, the treatment plan is focused on correcting the

imbalances so that normal/optimal function returns. Once normal function is

restored, the probability of a favorable reproductive outcome is increased.If

you substitute " favorable Reproductive Outcomes " for Weight loss, smoking

cessation, eradication of headaches or pain, then I don't see how that is out of

step with our profession.David K.--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@>

wrote:>> David,> I appreciate your opinion but find it odd that your philosophy>

seems to be out of step with the profession. I do, however,> agree with trying

to help every patient just not your goal of> reproduction (this is not a sign of

health and unhealthy people> can and do get pregnant also). > > " I use the

principles of to help my patients to become as healthy as

possible... " Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>

________> Gear up for Halo® 3

with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It's our way of saying thanks for

using Windows Live™.> http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2> >

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

Knock yourself out. Sounds like you have a real calling.

 

David K

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> David,

>

> Interconnection of our environment and our biology should be

apparent and something

> that comes from our TCM/OM heritage. To fail to see the smoking

gun, sorry for the

> analogy, is a big mistake. What I was mentioning is that as more

and more toxic

> chemicals are affecting our health and that includes reproduction,

just an FYI.

>

> Many of these act as xeno-estrogens which mimic estrogen and can

affect both

> partners. For men, it has the affect of lowering testosterone

levels. Our environment

> is telling us that things are not working right and it shows up in

the animal kingdom.

>

> You can definitely try to treat this on a singular level but that

really does not change

> the real issue. I made the parallel of toxins to infertility to

rich company as that is where

> things need to change. We can be a force for change or not. Mike

W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : acuprof: Thu, 13 Sep

2007 15:21:20 +0000Re: A case in point

>

>

>

>

> Mike,I am not an environmentalist. I am sympathetic to the cause

of environmentalism, and sensitive to the very real dangers that are

posed by global warming, but I cannot see how that possibly bears

any relationship to my professional purpose. I am not a lobbyist, a

politician or an activist. Did I miss some part of the hypocratic

oath? The part where it said that doctors have to be green?You

said, " We need to become more involved with being more green and

getting this message out there. You do understand that global

warming is real, don't you? " While I can understand that this is a

very compelling message and something that you personally feel

strongly about, can you explainexactly why as an acupuncturist,

I " need to become more involved? " David K--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> " I pointed these things out

(wouldn't the offspring of affluent, educated parents be more likely

to contribute to the solution...) somewhat mockingly. My point is

that we are not capable of making such a judgement. " > > What

judgement? Many of the so-called rich own the very companies> that

seek to destroy our environment, which leads us down the

reproductive> path and no more children. We need to become more

involved with being> more green and getting this message out there.

You do understand that> global warming is real, don't you?Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac> > > @: acuprof@: Thu,

13 Sep 2007 02:19:24 +0000Re: A case in point> > > >

> Mike,I pointed these things out (wouldn't the offspring of

affluent, educated parents be more likely to contribute to the

solution...) somewhat mockingly. My point is that we are not capable

of making such a judgement. I think it would be a horrible violation

of ethics to look at every infertile couple that approaches us for

medical help, and to try to make some kind of assessment or

prediction about what contributions their offspring might make (or

not make) to the social problems that grip our world. First of all,

we have no way to make such predictions. And secondly - even if we

did, is it up to us as acupuncturists to use that " information " as a

guage of whether we will or will not treat such patients?This is a

very slippery slope. Once these kinds of assessments are mingled

into our choice of which patients to accept and which one's we

reject, where does it end? Should we cease to treat Jews who

struggle with infertility because of the likelyhood that their

offspring will further contribute to the global menace of Jewiness?

Should we refuse care to the rich because their offspring are

predisposed to make worse the problems of Richiness?My point is that

these are not our judgements to make. I help people. If people want

to have children and there is no discernable medical reason why they

should not, I try to help them get what they most want. If there is

a medical risk, I try to learn as much as I can so that I can best

educate them about what potential risks are involved. David Karchmer-

-- In Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> Nice to know about the possible DAOM

at Yosan. Are you planning to enroll?> > You mentioned, " wouldn't

the offspring of affluent, educated (but infertile) parents be more

likely to contribute to the solution than would the offspring of

poor, uneducated, single parents? " > > Actually my response to this

is that affluence and industrialization are major> contributors to

much of our pollution and health problems. Be careful> with who you

choose to endorse. The rich tend to be overly willing> to indulge in

excesses and those who are poor deficiency, at least > that is how

it appears to be. > > Lastly, I guess I am a bit surprised that you

claim not to have a> philosophy about our medicine and its place in

our culture. As > ethics is guided by philosophy, I am deeply

concerned about this> attitude and what I am hearing. Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac>

________> Kick

back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger

Caf鮦gt; http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline> >

 

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

Two answers to your question, " So, I never got any response to why

you are not enrolled in the DAOM (women health)? "

-------------------------

1) The DAOM programs are pretty new. They don't seem very fully

formed to me. I know when I did my Masters program there were A LOT

of classes that seemed poorly conceived and implemented stuffed into

the program like " fillers " that puffed the program up in hours, but

didn't add much in terms of substance. I am not enthused about the

prospect of slogging through hours and hours of mediocre training in

order to get what is clinically relevant.

 

2) At this point in the game, I don't have the time, and for the

reason outlined above, I don't have the inclination.

 

David K.

 

 

--- In

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> David,

>

> Your focus all along has been upon pregnancy as your

> determiner for success and not simply personal or societal

> health, yes there is such a thing.

>

> Focus and intent are important and do tell if we are a

> technician or much more. I happen to think we are

> much more. So, I never got any response to why

> you are not enrolled in the DAOM (women health)?Mike W. Bowser, L

Ac

>

>

> : acuprof: Thu, 13 Sep

2007 15:14:36 +0000Re: A case in point

>

>

>

>

> Mike,I don't think that we will come to an agreement on this one.

I have stated repeatedly that my approach to helping people with

reproductive health is to educate them about their options and

risks, and to apply the principles of TCM to optimize health. Which

part of that violates the " spirit " of our medicine or negatively

impacts the environment or society?David K--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> > You can keep throwing gas on a

fire to keep it going also. That does not> mean it is the right

thing to do. As your focus is mainly on getting women> pregnant you

may be blinded to what I am simply saying. Connecting> birth to

success does not equal patient health. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac> > > To:

Chinese Medicine@: acuprof@: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:52:17

+0000Re: A case in point> > > > > Mike,My practice is

about 95% fertility related cases. Our goals for treatment are

closely tied to reproductive outcomes. As a practitioner of CM, I

find that the factors that inhibit conception or full term pregnancy

are the results of meridian/organ imbalances. In such cases, the

treatment plan is focused on correcting the imbalances so that

normal/optimal function returns. Once normal function is restored,

the probability of a favorable reproductive outcome is increased.If

you substitute " favorable Reproductive Outcomes " for Weight loss,

smoking cessation, eradication of headaches or pain, then I don't

see how that is out of step with our profession.David K.--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> I appreciate your opinion but find

it odd that your philosophy> seems to be out of step with the

profession. I do, however,> agree with trying to help every patient

just not your goal of> reproduction (this is not a sign of health

and unhealthy people> can and do get pregnant also). > > " I use the

principles of to help my patients to become as

healthy as possible... " Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>

________> Gear up

for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It's our way

of saying thanks for using Windows Live?.> http://gethalo3gear.com?

ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2> > [Non-text portions of this

message have been removed]> > > > > > > >

________> Capture

your memories in an online journal!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?

ocid=TXT_TAGHM & loc=us> > [Non-text portions of this message have

been removed]>

_______________

> Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?

s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?.

> http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mike, one last thing that annoys me about your comments. You seem to

have a dogmatic view, like every CM practitioner is duty bound to

practice according to your view.

 

You said, " Interconnection of our environment and our biology should

be apparent and something that comes from our TCM/OM heritage. "

 

Here's a list of other things that come from our TCM/OM heritage:

 

Kung Fu

Numerology

Astrology

I-ching

Feng-Shui

Alchemy

 

Do you feel equally about all of these things? Does an acupuncturist

fail to measure up to your standards if they are not fully committed

to advancing the cause of Global Astrology or Social Alchemy?

 

Are you going to start calling people out, insinuating that they do

not practice " true " OM if they can't maintain a Horse Stance for 20

minutes, cast the I-ching or redecorate their waiting room for

maximum Qi-flow effect?

 

Look, OM is a great big field. Nobody practices every single thing

contained under the rubric, Oriental Medicine. Each of us chooses

which elements turn us on and where we want to place our focus. I

don't get where you get off trying to moralize to the rest of us

about which elements we choose to embrace or not. If you are into

the whole global-interconnectedness thing, then like I said, knock

yourself out. Give Al Gore some alchemical, feng-shui weightloss

treatmnts for all I care. Go for it, man. Do it all the way.

 

It's not my schtick. What's the big deal?

 

David K.

 

 

-- In Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> David,

>

> Interconnection of our environment and our biology should be

apparent and something

> that comes from our TCM/OM heritage. To fail to see the smoking

gun, sorry for the

> analogy, is a big mistake. What I was mentioning is that as more

and more toxic

> chemicals are affecting our health and that includes reproduction,

just an FYI.

>

> Many of these act as xeno-estrogens which mimic estrogen and can

affect both

> partners. For men, it has the affect of lowering testosterone

levels. Our environment

> is telling us that things are not working right and it shows up in

the animal kingdom.

>

> You can definitely try to treat this on a singular level but that

really does not change

> the real issue. I made the parallel of toxins to infertility to

rich company as that is where

> things need to change. We can be a force for change or not. Mike

W. Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : acuprof: Thu, 13 Sep

2007 15:21:20 +0000Re: A case in point

>

>

>

>

> Mike,I am not an environmentalist. I am sympathetic to the cause

of environmentalism, and sensitive to the very real dangers that are

posed by global warming, but I cannot see how that possibly bears

any relationship to my professional purpose. I am not a lobbyist, a

politician or an activist. Did I miss some part of the hypocratic

oath? The part where it said that doctors have to be green?You

said, " We need to become more involved with being more green and

getting this message out there. You do understand that global

warming is real, don't you? " While I can understand that this is a

very compelling message and something that you personally feel

strongly about, can you explainexactly why as an acupuncturist,

I " need to become more involved? " David K--- In

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> " I pointed these things out

(wouldn't the offspring of affluent, educated parents be more likely

to contribute to the solution...) somewhat mockingly. My point is

that we are not capable of making such a judgement. " > > What

judgement? Many of the so-called rich own the very companies> that

seek to destroy our environment, which leads us down the

reproductive> path and no more children. We need to become more

involved with being> more green and getting this message out there.

You do understand that> global warming is real, don't you?Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac> > > @: acuprof@: Thu,

13 Sep 2007 02:19:24 +0000Re: A case in point> > > >

> Mike,I pointed these things out (wouldn't the offspring of

affluent, educated parents be more likely to contribute to the

solution...) somewhat mockingly. My point is that we are not capable

of making such a judgement. I think it would be a horrible violation

of ethics to look at every infertile couple that approaches us for

medical help, and to try to make some kind of assessment or

prediction about what contributions their offspring might make (or

not make) to the social problems that grip our world. First of all,

we have no way to make such predictions. And secondly - even if we

did, is it up to us as acupuncturists to use that " information " as a

guage of whether we will or will not treat such patients?This is a

very slippery slope. Once these kinds of assessments are mingled

into our choice of which patients to accept and which one's we

reject, where does it end? Should we cease to treat Jews who

struggle with infertility because of the likelyhood that their

offspring will further contribute to the global menace of Jewiness?

Should we refuse care to the rich because their offspring are

predisposed to make worse the problems of Richiness?My point is that

these are not our judgements to make. I help people. If people want

to have children and there is no discernable medical reason why they

should not, I try to help them get what they most want. If there is

a medical risk, I try to learn as much as I can so that I can best

educate them about what potential risks are involved. David Karchmer-

-- In Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1@> wrote:>> David,> Nice to know about the possible DAOM

at Yosan. Are you planning to enroll?> > You mentioned, " wouldn't

the offspring of affluent, educated (but infertile) parents be more

likely to contribute to the solution than would the offspring of

poor, uneducated, single parents? " > > Actually my response to this

is that affluence and industrialization are major> contributors to

much of our pollution and health problems. Be careful> with who you

choose to endorse. The rich tend to be overly willing> to indulge in

excesses and those who are poor deficiency, at least > that is how

it appears to be. > > Lastly, I guess I am a bit surprised that you

claim not to have a> philosophy about our medicine and its place in

our culture. As > ethics is guided by philosophy, I am deeply

concerned about this> attitude and what I am hearing. Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac>

________> Kick

back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger

Caf鮦gt; http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline> >

 

[Guest guest]

David, I don't mean to just gripe tonight, but if your ONLY concern

is about " how this [ABORM] certificate is marketed and how it is

presented to the community, " then why all the questions about Horror

Stories and Practical TCM information as they pertain to

Reproductive OM?

 

OK, that was the gripe part. Here is the serious part.........

 

Also, you asked, " Its amazing to me how one can promote the benefits

of the exam and

certificate when there has never been an exam yet, or the first

review course has not been presented yet, in february. Why not wait

until we see how it goes?â€

 

This is a good question. Before I answer it, I’d just like to point

out that I could ask you just the opposite: How is it that you can

cynically oppose something and decry its benefits when it has never

even been administered?

 

It’s really the same question.

 

Here is why I support the process.

 

1) First of all, as I have vociferously stated numerous times, I

believe that this process is good for the patients and also good for

the profession.

 

2) When something exciting and promising is happening, and I have an

opportunity to participate, I want to be in on the ground floor.

 

3) I would like to see a lot more research done on the clinical

possibilities of acupuncture and OM and I think the ABORM will help

to facilitate that process.

 

4) I realize that this process isn’t perfect. While it hasn’t been

able to satisfy all of the criticisms, I am not of the opinion that

something must be fully formed and beyond reproach in order for it

to be initiated.

 

5) I am confident that evolution will develop organically, and

that “the battle you fight is never the one that you have prepared

for.†Obstacles will arise, and those will be dealt with.

 

6) And probably most importantly………………………Fast forward 5-6

years. The

ABORM is disbanded and disgraced. The experiment turned out to be a

COMPLETE failure.

 

What have I lost?

- $750 and a long Saturday afternoon.

 

What have I gained?

- A focused means to study and learn more about my work

- An opportunity to meet and network with many like minded

colleagues work

- An opportunity to help pioneer and shape a dynamic and engaging

frontier in a profession that I love

 

David K

 

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Hi David:

>

> Thanks for the detailed post.

>

> Its seems to me you assume Acupuncturists don't ask their patients

> if they are seeing a medical doctor and don't recommend them go

see

> one. I have done this my entire career fo every patient, any

> qulified practioner will do this and will be aware of any

diagnosis

> and condition, this is basic and they will research anything they

> dont know and with experience they research less. Sounds like you

> are still researching as you study for your exam.

>

> Do you think the board members and their affliated associates have

> patients with horror stories over their careers?

>

> Do you think patients from this group of experts leave them and go

> to other practioners?

>

> The question is not whether one supports more education and

> certificates, its about how this certificate is marketed and how

it

> is presented to the community. This is the central issue for me.

Its

> amazing to me how one can promote the benefits of the exam and

> certificate when there has never been an exam yet, or the first

> review course has not been presented yet, in february. Why not

wait

> until we see how it goes?

>

> As far as our dialogue, I would prefer to stay on this issue, all

> others are minor to me. I don't care if it is non-profit or not or

> people make money with reveiw courses, or salaires, or bonuses, or

> workshops or talks or referred patients, etc. Lots of ways to make

> money, its irrelevant to me. Its about how is this certificate

> marketed and how will it impact licensed practitioners, if at all

> and how does it set the precedent for other certifications in the

> future.

>

> I can assume how you will use this certificate in distuingushing

> yourself from others. Im interested in how it will be marketed to

> our profession in journals, advertising, flyers and verbal

> discussions and insurance companies.

>

> We as practioners must participate in how our profession and its

> interaction unfolds or a small group of people will decide for us.

>

> Regards,

>

> david

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

I said, " I’d just like to point out that I could ask you just the

opposite: How is it that you can cynically oppose something and

decry its benefits when it has never even been administered? "

 

Substitute " one " for " you. "

 

I could ask you just the opposite: How is it that ONE can cynically

oppose something and decry its benefits when it has never even been

administered? "

 

Does that satisfy your ever-narrowing requirements to stay engaged

in a conversation?

 

Or do you still want to pick up your toys and go home?

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " David

Karchmer " <acuprof wrote:

>

> David, I don't mean to just gripe tonight, but if your ONLY

concern

> is about " how this [ABORM] certificate is marketed and how it is

> presented to the community, " then why all the questions about

Horror

> Stories and Practical TCM information as they pertain to

> Reproductive OM?

>

> OK, that was the gripe part. Here is the serious part.........

>

> Also, you asked, " Its amazing to me how one can promote the

benefits

> of the exam and

> certificate when there has never been an exam yet, or the first

> review course has not been presented yet, in february. Why not

wait

> until we see how it goes?â€

>

> This is a good question. Before I answer it, I’d just like to

point

> out that I could ask you just the opposite: How is it that you can

> cynically oppose something and decry its benefits when it has

never

> even been administered?

>

> It’s really the same question.

>

> Here is why I support the process.

>

> 1) First of all, as I have vociferously stated numerous times, I

> believe that this process is good for the patients and also good

for

> the profession.

>

> 2) When something exciting and promising is happening, and I have

an

> opportunity to participate, I want to be in on the ground floor.

>

> 3) I would like to see a lot more research done on the clinical

> possibilities of acupuncture and OM and I think the ABORM will

help

> to facilitate that process.

>

> 4) I realize that this process isn’t perfect. While it hasn’t been

> able to satisfy all of the criticisms, I am not of the opinion

that

> something must be fully formed and beyond reproach in order for it

> to be initiated.

>

> 5) I am confident that evolution will develop organically, and

> that “the battle you fight is never the one that you have prepared

> for.†Obstacles will arise, and those will be dealt with.

>

> 6) And probably most importantly………………………Fast forward 5-6

years.

The

> ABORM is disbanded and disgraced. The experiment turned out to be

a

> COMPLETE failure.

>

> What have I lost?

> - $750 and a long Saturday afternoon.

>

> What have I gained?

> - A focused means to study and learn more about my work

> - An opportunity to meet and network with many like minded

> colleagues work

> - An opportunity to help pioneer and shape a dynamic and

engaging

> frontier in a profession that I love

>

> David K

>

>

>

> --- In

>

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

> <flyingstarsfengshui@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi David:

> >

> > Thanks for the detailed post.

> >

> > Its seems to me you assume Acupuncturists don't ask their

patients

> > if they are seeing a medical doctor and don't recommend them go

> see

> > one. I have done this my entire career fo every patient, any

> > qulified practioner will do this and will be aware of any

> diagnosis

> > and condition, this is basic and they will research anything

they

> > dont know and with experience they research less. Sounds like

you

> > are still researching as you study for your exam.

> >

> > Do you think the board members and their affliated associates

have

> > patients with horror stories over their careers?

> >

> > Do you think patients from this group of experts leave them and

go

> > to other practioners?

> >

> > The question is not whether one supports more education and

> > certificates, its about how this certificate is marketed and how

> it

> > is presented to the community. This is the central issue for me.

> Its

> > amazing to me how one can promote the benefits of the exam and

> > certificate when there has never been an exam yet, or the first

> > review course has not been presented yet, in february. Why not

> wait

> > until we see how it goes?

> >

> > As far as our dialogue, I would prefer to stay on this issue,

all

> > others are minor to me. I don't care if it is non-profit or not

or

> > people make money with reveiw courses, or salaires, or bonuses,

or

> > workshops or talks or referred patients, etc. Lots of ways to

make

> > money, its irrelevant to me. Its about how is this certificate

> > marketed and how will it impact licensed practitioners, if at

all

> > and how does it set the precedent for other certifications in

the

> > future.

> >

> > I can assume how you will use this certificate in distuingushing

> > yourself from others. Im interested in how it will be marketed

to

> > our profession in journals, advertising, flyers and verbal

> > discussions and insurance companies.

> >

> > We as practioners must participate in how our profession and its

> > interaction unfolds or a small group of people will decide for

us.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > david

> >

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

A comment, and then a question:

 

You said " Its for [ABORM] to create good review courses

 

The ABORM specifically is not offerring or endorsing any training

course or exam prep courses. It is the view of the ABORM that this

would represent a conflict of interest.

 

You said, " I just see all this early marketing as forcing it...... "

 

What do you mean? I am not aware of any early marketing. Is

something happening in Southern California that I am not aware of?

 

David K

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> My remark was based on a general pattern of diaologue I believe

you

> have.

>

> Look, ABORM or anybody else will precede with or without support

of

> all practitoners. Its for them to create good review courses,

their

> associates are offering them, and good exams, and let the industry

> judge its value. I just see all this early marketing as forcing

it,

> which there is no need. Just begin the process then lets how it

> unfolds and we then can have a dialogue on its value and impact.

>

> regards,

> david

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

I guess what this boils down to for us is a differing interpretation

of history.

 

On the one hand, critics of the ABORM say there is no educational

component, only a test.

 

You say, " It is a group of its associates not ABORM offering the

reveiw course, but it is one huge web of affliated marketers, which

I have no problem with. "

 

I see people like Randine and Jane Lyttleton, Bob Damone, Bob Flaws,

and Peter Deadman more as educators, not marketers.

 

Another reason I support ABORM is that I know how hard (read

impossible) it is to satisfy all of one's critics. Many people

cry, " You don't offer anny education. " What you say amounts

to, 'Education isn't education, it is just marketing.'

 

Critics of the ABORM say: ABORM is self appoiinted with no oversight

and no quality control. So, in response the ABORM forms partnerships

to create better oversight with, among others, the AAAOM.

 

You say, " Trying to get AAAOM to support it is marketing. "

 

As for your claims:

 

" People saying there are horror stories and people are incompentent

is marketing.

 

Attacking others who dont get in line is marketing. "

 

I don't see how this could be considered as marketing, particularly

since I don't know of any ABORM members who have engaged in such

things. And also, these are debates of ideas between professional

colleagues, not to potential patients or the general public. So, I

cannot see how this type of thing could be defined as 'marketing.'

 

Am I engaged in marketing right now by debating these ideas with you?

 

 

You said, " Because one has a worthly goal does not mean it will be

favorably implemented and a positive influence for a majoroty of the

profession, to demand people support the program without knowing

more in my view is inappropriate. "

 

Well, on the first point we agree. It certainly does not mean it

will be favorably implemented, etc. But neither does it mean that it

won't be. Who will ever know if the ball never rolls?

 

As for the second statement, " to demand people support the program

without knowing more in my view is inappropriate. "

 

I don't know of ANYONE who has demanded anything from anybody. Who

is making demands that people support the program? And from whom?

People are just free as they could be to participate or not.

 

100% voluntary.

 

And finally, you said, " For a group, ABORM and its associates, to

gain industry support without having created anything, no review

course yet, no exam yet, it premature. Why all the hype? "

 

There is an exam. It just has yet to be administered.

 

There is NOT an officially sanctioned review course, nor will there

ever be. We have already discussed that the Board feels this would

create a conflict of interest and it will not offer, nor will it

sanction education modules or prep courses.

 

There are schools that are offering prep courses, like AOMA and

Emperor's (i believe). Would you describe acupuncture colleges as

marketers, too?

 

Why all the hype?

 

What hype? What hype has ABORM generated except to announce the exam

and put up a website?

 

Most of what I think youare calling Hype is being generated by very

vocal critics and folks like me who are trying to answer the

challenges that the critics pose. Can you provide any examples of

ABORM generated hype?

 

Your last statement I agree with VERY MUCH.

 

" Why not just offer [the exam] and then take it from there. "

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

 

David K

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> Yes, David you are right. It is a group of its associates not

ABORM

> offering the reveiw course, but it is one huge web of affliated

> marketers, which I have no problem with, I'm curious as what kind

of

> other marketing will occur and will it polarize certified

practioners

> from those that are not.

>

> Ok, from my view I will offer what I see as some marketing.

>

> The discussions here is marketing and on other sites is

promotion.

>

> Trying to get AAAOM to support it is marketing.

>

> People saying there are horror stories and people are

> incompentent is marketing.

>

> Attacking others who dont get in line is marketing.

>

> Claiming an exam is a confirming factor of competence, an exam

by

> a non licensing group is marketing.

>

> Just a few.

>

> Because one has a worthly goal does not mean it will be favorably

> implemented and a positive influence for a majoroty of the

profession,

> to demand people support the program without knowing more in my

view

> is inappropriate.

>

> For a group, ABORM and its associates, to gain industry support

> without having created anything, no review course yet, no exam

yet, it

> premature. Why all the hype? Why not just offer it and then take

it

> from there.

>

>

> David

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

That is an interesting point. I will point that out to Ray.

 

Did you read his history lesson about the ABMS, by the way?

 

Referring to your section with the asterisk, I say three things.

 

1) I think that is excellent languaging for the ABORM to consider

adopting.

 

2) While I have made claims of practitioner incompetence and

irresponsibility, I do not represent ABORM. I'm just a vocal guy

with a box of needles who knows his way around a vagina.

 

3) If my leg is shattered in an accident, I don't give a crap

how " equally qualified " the ABMS claims that all doctors are - I'd

rather see someone Board Certified in Orthopedics than an Ear Nose

and Throat man.

 

 

David K

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> David:

>

> Marketing includes alot, including how one described oneself and

its

> goal. Below is from the American Board of Medical Specialities. It

> would be nice if ABORM revised their description about who is

> qualified to reflect the more comprehensive expanation below. I

have

> asterisked the area. At the bottom is ABORM's description.

>

>

> " Higher Standards Lead to Better Care

>

> If your doctor is ABMS board certified, it means a few things. If

> your doctor is board certified by an ABMS Member Board it means

that

> he or she has completed years of schooling, fulfilled residency

> requirements and passed the tests required by the state or

territory

> in which he or she intends to practice. Even after completing that

> lengthy effort, your doctor has chosen to undergo the voluntary

> process of certification, where he or she has been judged by a

group

> of certified physicians in a particular specialty of medicine and

> has been deemed worthy of certification by an ABMS specialty

board.

>

> ***It is important to note that there is no requirement or need

for

> a certified physician in a recognized specialty to hold special

> certification in a subspecialty of that field in order to be

> considered qualified to include aspects of that subspecialty

within

> a specialty practice. Under no circumstances should this physician

> be considered unqualified to practice within an area of a

> subspecialty solely because of lack of subspecialty

> certification.***

>

> Specialty certification in a subspecialty field is of significance

> for physicians preparing for careers in teaching, research, or

> practice restricted to that field. Such special certification is

> recognition of exceptional expertise and experience and has not

been

> created to justify a differential fee schedule or to confer other

> professional advantages over other physicians not so certified.

>

> That being said, it should always be remembered that the measure

of

> a physician is not merely how well she or he keeps up to date in a

> given specialty, but how effectively that knowledge is used in

> everyday practice. "

>

>

> *****

> ABORM to be compared to asterisked above.

> " This does not prevent a practitioner who chooses not to be

examined

> and is not board certified, from practicing that specialty "

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

Do I think I aggressively discuss these issues?

 

I don't understand how that is on topic. Are we debating the future of

our profession or psycho-analyzing me?

 

What happened to your statement, " As far as our dialogue, I would

prefer to stay on [the] issue [of marketing]. "

 

Is my attitude a form of marketing now as well?

 

David K

 

 

 

 

 

 

others are minor to me--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> David:

>

> Sorry to say I will be unable to continue this for awhile.

>

> I'm just curious, do you think you aggressively discuss these issues?

>

> regards,

>

> david

>

[Guest guest]

David,

 

It appears once again you are over-reacting to what was said and even

misinterpreting

things. I have posted what should be common sense and taught to some degree in

many TCM/OM schools. I believe that biology is on the list for entrance and we

have a

biological medicine. Maybe it was not at your school, I do not know. I have

never said

we all need to have the same shtick only that we need to have some common

understanding

in the profession as that is what defines us legally.

 

Years ago there were and programs that started out wanting no regulation. There

is

still a program in AZ that teaches acupuncture to others and yet has no

regulation.

 

I have stated that my opinion is that the ABORM is repeating this type of

structure.

I have also inquired as to why you do not feel the need to pursue a DAOM

in women's health, which would provide for a more legit training and moving the

profession forward.

 

Lastly, you fail to see the basic connection we all should have, our focus is

upon

patient balance and health, not simply pregnancy. You do not see a separate

specialty in China for reproduction as it falls under TCM Gyn. Mike W. Bowser,

L Ac

_______________

Gear up for Halo® 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It’s our way of

saying thanks for using Windows Live™.

http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oh, please...! Do I need to point out how offensive this comment is? And how

it alone can entirely topple the image of professionalism all your previous

posts have attempted to build? Sheesh!

 

 

 

David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

I'm just a vocal guy

with a box of needles who knows his way around a vagina.

 

 

 

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!

Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more, Andrea Beth.

 

--RoseAnne, L.Ac.

 

 

 

<

Chinese Medicine

Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51 -0700 (PDT)

Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, please...! Do I need to point out how offensive this comment is?

And how

it alone can entirely topple the image of professionalism all your

previous

posts have attempted to build? Sheesh!

 

 

 

David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

I'm just a vocal guy

with a box of needles who knows his way around a vagina.

 

 

 

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!

Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at

Games.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well AB,

 

What can I say? I guess sense of humor is a matter of personal

preference; sometimes a dark one makes for select company. Sorry if

you are offended.

 

DK

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth

Damsky < wrote:

>

> Oh, please...! Do I need to point out how offensive this comment

is? And how it alone can entirely topple the image of

professionalism all your previous posts have attempted to build?

Sheesh!

>

>

>

> David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:

> I'm just a vocal guy

> with a box of needles who knows his way around a vagina.

>

>

>

> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!

> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at

Games.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yuk.... It neither an issue of humor nor personal preference, it is a matter of

what is or is

not acceptable on a public professional forum. Comments about your personal

sexual

practices are unseemly, unprofessional and clearly not appropriate.... If you

arn't banned,

consider yourself fortunate.

 

David Toone

 

Chinese Medicine , " David Karchmer "

<acuprof

wrote:

>

> Well AB,

>

> What can I say? I guess sense of humor is a matter of personal

> preference; sometimes a dark one makes for select company. Sorry if

> you are offended.

>

> DK

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth

> Damsky <@> wrote:

> >

> > Oh, please...! Do I need to point out how offensive this comment

> is? And how it alone can entirely topple the image of

> professionalism all your previous posts have attempted to build?

> Sheesh!

> >

> >

> >

> > David Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:

> > I'm just a vocal guy

> > with a box of needles who knows his way around a vagina.

> >

> >

> >

> > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!

> > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at

> Games.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

David,

You might not want to display or at least state things in this way

for future reference. I would also hope you drop the sarcasm as

that is also very unprofessional. This has not helped convince us of

your desire but does make one wonder what is going on. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: ra6151: Fri,

14 Sep 2007 12:12:02 -0400Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more, Andrea Beth.--RoseAnne, L.Ac.-----Original

Message----- <To:

Chinese Medicine: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51

-0700 (PDT)Re: A case in pointOh, please...! Do I need to point

out how offensive this comment is? And howit alone can entirely topple the image

of professionalism all your previousposts have attempted to build? Sheesh!Andrea

Beth Damsky, L.Ac.David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:I'm just a vocal

guywith a box of needles who knows his way around a

vagina.Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!Play

Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at

Games.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

 

I think I've made my position pretty clear as it pertains to your

unsolicited advice. Please, do your thing. Do what you do the way

you like to do it - anyway you like to do it.

 

And you can rest assured that I'll do the same.

 

Anyway, I thought we were discussing the merits of specialization,

not the personalities of those involved in the discussion. but,

since we are expressing personal preferences, I'll take a shot as

well.

 

I'd prefer to keep the thread on topic.

 

David K.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> David,

> You might not want to display or at least state things in this way

> for future reference. I would also hope you drop the sarcasm as

> that is also very unprofessional. This has not helped convince us

of

> your desire but does make one wonder what is going on. Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : ra6151: Fri, 14 Sep 2007

12:12:02 -0400Re: A case in point

>

>

>

>

> I couldn't agree more, Andrea Beth.--RoseAnne, L.Ac.-----Original

Message----- <To:

Chinese Medicine: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51 -0700

(PDT)Re: A case in pointOh, please...! Do I need to

point out how offensive this comment is? And howit alone can

entirely topple the image of professionalism all your previousposts

have attempted to build? Sheesh!David

Karchmer <acuprof wrote:I'm just a vocal guywith a box of

needles who knows his way around a vagina.---------------------------

------Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!Play Monopoly Here and Now

(it's updated for today's economy) at Games.[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee

online journal for TCM at

Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the world's

largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine andacupuncture,

click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change

your email delivery settings, click,

and

adjust accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the grouprequires prior permission from the

author.Please consider the environment and only print this message

if absolutelynecessary.

Links________Email

and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -

http://mail.aol.com

_______________

> More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows

Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.

> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-

us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907

>

>

[Guest guest]

Speaking of which,

 

The controversial post in question was part of an ongoing dialogue

about the merits and limitations of specialty boards. I have typed

pages and pages of content in an effort to illuminate my position.

 

Why fixate on something as trivial as a bawdy comment injected to

lighten the tone?

 

Anyone have anything of value to contribute to the substance of

conversation?

 

David K.

 

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> David,

> You might not want to display or at least state things in this way

> for future reference. I would also hope you drop the sarcasm as

> that is also very unprofessional. This has not helped convince us

of

> your desire but does make one wonder what is going on. Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac

>

>

> : ra6151: Fri, 14 Sep 2007

12:12:02 -0400Re: A case in point

>

>

>

>

> I couldn't agree more, Andrea Beth.--RoseAnne, L.Ac.-----Original

Message----- <To:

Chinese Medicine: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51 -0700

(PDT)Re: A case in pointOh, please...! Do I need to

point out how offensive this comment is? And howit alone can

entirely topple the image of professionalism all your previousposts

have attempted to build? Sheesh!David

Karchmer <acuprof wrote:I'm just a vocal guywith a box of

needles who knows his way around a vagina.---------------------------

------Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!Play Monopoly Here and Now

(it's updated for today's economy) at Games.[Non-text

portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee

online journal for TCM at

Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the world's

largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine andacupuncture,

click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo change

your email delivery settings, click,

and

adjust accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the grouprequires prior permission from the

author.Please consider the environment and only print this message

if absolutelynecessary.

Links________Email

and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -

http://mail.aol.com

_______________

> More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows

Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.

> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-

us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907

>

>

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

While that seems to be the issue that you are most concerned with,

there is a broader conversation going on that encompasses

specialization at large, as well as certification.

 

David K

 

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> We are not debating the merits of specialization, we are debating

> certification.

>

> david

>

> Chinese Medicine , " David

> Karchmer " <acuprof@> wrote:

> >

> > Mike,

> >

> > I think I've made my position pretty clear as it pertains to

your

> > unsolicited advice. Please, do your thing. Do what you do the

way

> > you like to do it - anyway you like to do it.

> >

> > And you can rest assured that I'll do the same.

> >

> > Anyway, I thought we were discussing the merits of

specialization,

> > not the personalities of those involved in the discussion. but,

> > since we are expressing personal preferences, I'll take a shot

as

> > well.

> >

> > I'd prefer to keep the thread on topic.

> >

> > David K.

> >

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

> > <naturaldoc1@> wrote:

> > >

> > > David,

> > > You might not want to display or at least state things in this

> way

> > > for future reference. I would also hope you drop the sarcasm

as

> > > that is also very unprofessional. This has not helped

convince

> us

> > of

> > > your desire but does make one wonder what is going on. Mike

W.

> > Bowser, L Ac

> > >

> > >

> > > @: ra6151@: Fri, 14 Sep 2007

> > 12:12:02 -0400Re: A case in point

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I couldn't agree more, Andrea Beth.--RoseAnne, L.Ac.-----

> Original

> > Message----- <@>To:

> > Chinese Medicine@: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51 -0700

> > (PDT)Re: A case in pointOh, please...! Do I need

to

> > point out how offensive this comment is? And howit alone can

> > entirely topple the image of professionalism all your

> previousposts

> > have attempted to build? Sheesh!David

> > Karchmer <acuprof@> wrote:I'm just a vocal guywith a box of

> > needles who knows his way around a vagina.-----------------------

--

> --

> > ------Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!Play Monopoly Here and Now

> > (it's updated for today's economy) at Games.[Non-text

> > portions of this message have been removed]Subscribe to the fee

> > online journal for TCM at

> > Timeshttp://www.chinesemedicinetimes.comHelp build the world's

> > largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine andacupuncture,

> > click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpediaTo

change

> > your email delivery settings, click,

> >

and

> > adjust accordingly.Messages are the property of the author. Any

> > duplication outside the grouprequires prior permission from the

> > author.Please consider the environment and only print this

message

> > if absolutelynecessary.

> >

>

Links________Email

> > and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -

 

> > http://mail.aol.com

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

_______________

> > > More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with

> Windows

> > Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.

> > > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-

> > us & ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

David T,

 

I think what we don't agree on is " Everyone Agrees " statements. If

this dialogue has demonstrated anything it is that there are few

things that all of " us " agree upon.

 

These type of generalized statements may obscure the debate and the

issues at hand. This is because you may be arguing from the point of

view that your opinion is dominant, when in fact it may be in a

minority or even highly personalized.

 

A case in point is your earlier claim that you always make sure that

all of your patients have an evaluation from an MD.

 

You said:

 

" Its seems to me [that] you [David K] assume Acupuncturists don't

ask their patients if they are seeing a medical doctor and don't

recommend them go see one. I have done this my entire career fo

every patient, any qulified practioner will do this and will be

aware of any diagnosis and condition, this is basic and they will

research anything they dont know and with experience they research

less. "

 

Well, I posted a poll to this group asking as much so that I would

not have to assume, and guess what; not one person so far has

responded that they recommend that their patients see an MD as a

matter of course. Most only do so if they suspect a problem, and 13%

of respondents claim that they NEVER send their patients to an MD.

 

So, I have two issues here. The first is that it is pure balderdash

to speak in generalizations, as in " Every acupuncturist

knows........, " and " It goes without saying...... "

 

And secondly, I stand by my earlier assertion that a minimum

standard like the one proposed by the ABORM is valuable for

promoting medical safety and responsibility because it increases the

probability that Reproductive OM specialists will have a fundamental

grasp of reproductive medicine.

 

I think that the poll results (at least to date) fly in the face of

your claim that acupuncturists do not need to know WM because we all

make sure that our patients are being evaluated by an MD.

 

David K

 

 

 

 

However, since I posted a poll to this group asking as much,

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> David:

>

> I think everyone would agree that it is good to emerse themselves

in

> their profession and any area they have a special interest, and if

> they choose to specialize in one area great. I dont see any

conflict

> there.

>

> The conflict is will there be avenues (promotion, marekting, etc.)

> against those not taking a specific route or certification? This

is

> the issue, not whether one emerses themselves and specializations

in

> one area. If we don't agree on this I'm not sure were we can go in

a

> dialogue.

>

> regards,

>

> david

>

[Guest guest]

Misquote you?

 

I quoted you directly.

 

Perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning, and if that is the case,

please set the record straight.

 

In the context of that particular thread, you were insistent that I

provide some basis for distinction to be made between the

qualifications of a reproductive acupuncture specialist and a

generalist.

 

I argued that a generalist may not possess enough knowledge of

reproductive medicine to safely and effectively handle the clinical

spectrum of fertilitiy cases. And that this is one argument in favor

of a credential like the ABORM certification.

 

Your response:

 

" Its seems to me [that] you [David K] assume Acupuncturists don't

ask their patients if they are seeing a medical doctor and don't

recommend them go see one. I have done this my entire career fo

every patient, any qulified practioner will do this and will be

aware of any diagnosis and condition, this is basic and they will

research anything they dont know and with experience they research

less. "

 

It is not my intention to misquote you. That's why I use the

quotation marks.

 

As far as " not giv[ing] much meaning to a poll here in your time

frame, most don't post on this list. "

 

That's all we have to go on so far. That, and your declaration about

what most of us do or don't do. I realize it's a small sample of

opinion, but that's like saying, 'I don't give much meaning to the

congress, most people don't vote anyway. "

 

What are you willing to give meaning to, other than your own pre-

formed opinion?

 

You asked for horror stories, I provided them. You offerred no

comment of concession.

 

You asked for specific OM applications or treatments that would

ditinguish the qualifications of a reproductive OM specialist from a

generalist. I provided clincal examples, to which you offerred no

comment and no concession.

 

I posted a poll inquiring about one facet of our debate, which you

promptly invalidated as meaningless.

 

So, I don't know how to move forward on the dialogue either since

you don't seem interested in responding to the substance of what I

am saying - even when I try to address your specific concerns.

 

David K

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> David:

>

> You continue to misquote me, is there a reason for this?

>

>

> You state this:

> " A case in point is your earlier claim that you always make sure

> that all of your patients have an evaluation from an MD. "

> **************************

> I said I ask ask my patients if they have seen a MD and if they

have

> not I suggest they see one, especially if it has been for a long

> time and they are having problems.

>

>

> I would not give much meaning to a poll here in your time frame,

> most don't post on this list.

>

>

> You make this statement:

> I think that the poll results (at least to date) fly in the face

of

> your claim that acupuncturists do not need to know WM because we

all

> make sure that our patients are being evaluated by an MD.

> *******************************

> Now where do I say Acupuncturists don't need to know WM. I had

hoped

> we could have a mneaningful dialogue but its does not seem

possible.

>

> I wish you the best in your persuits.

>

> Regards,

>

> david

>

[Guest guest]

David K.,

 

Could I point out that on your poll you use the word " require " rather

than " recommend " in the question about whether acupuncturists refer

their patients to M.D.'s. There's a big difference between those two

words. That's why I didn't answer your poll. I recommend, but I don't

require, except in the most infrequent cases.

 

Could I also point out that you didn't really offer " horror stories "

even though you keep saying that you did. You just offered made-up

examples that allowed you to toot your own horn some more. I hear so

much hubris in your presentation of yourself and your ideas. It's

really over the top, and as someone already suggested, you are now

sliding down the other side.

 

-RoseAnne L.Ac., NYC

 

 

 

 

David Karchmer <acuprof

Chinese Medicine

Fri, 14 Sep 2007 7:44 pm

Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

 

 

Misquote you?

 

I quoted you directly.

 

Perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning, and if that is the case,

please set the record straight.

 

In the context of that particular thread, you were insistent that I

provide some basis for distinction to be made between the

qualifications of a reproductive acupuncture specialist and a

generalist.

 

I argued that a generalist may not possess enough knowledge of

reproductive medicine to safely and effectively handle the clinical

spectrum of fertilitiy cases. And that this is one argument in favor

of a credential like the ABORM certification.

 

Your response:

 

" Its seems to me [that] you [David K] assume Acupuncturists don't

ask their patients if they are seeing a medical doctor and don't

recommend them go see one. I have done this my entire career fo

every patient, any qulified practioner will do this and will be

aware of any diagnosis and condition, this is basic and they will

research anything they dont know and with experience they research

less. "

 

It is not my intention to misquote you. That's why I use the

quotation marks.

 

As far as " not giv[ing] much meaning to a poll here in your time

frame, most don't post on this list. "

 

That's all we have to go on so far. That, and your declaration about

what most of us do or don't do. I realize it's a small sample of

opinion, but that's like saying, 'I don't give much meaning to the

congress, most people don't vote anyway. "

 

What are you willing to give meaning to, other than your own pre-

formed opinion?

 

You asked for horror stories, I provided them. You offerred no

comment of concession.

 

You asked for specific OM applications or treatments that would

ditinguish the qualifications of a reproductive OM specialist from a

generalist. I provided clincal examples, to which you offerred no

comment and no concession.

 

I posted a poll inquiring about one facet of our debate, which you

promptly invalidated as meaningless.

 

So, I don't know how to move forward on the dialogue either since

you don't seem interested in responding to the substance of what I

am saying - even when I try to address your specific concerns.

 

David K

 

 

--- In

Chinese Medicine , " flyingstarsfengshui "

<flyingstarsfengshui wrote:

>

> David:

>

> You continue to misquote me, is there a reason for this?

>

>

> You state this:

> " A case in point is your earlier claim that you always make sure

> that all of your patients have an evaluation from an MD. "

> **************************

> I said I ask ask my patients if they have seen a MD and if they

have

> not I suggest they see one, especially if it has been for a long

> time and they are having problems.

>

>

> I would not give much meaning to a poll here in your time frame,

> most don't post on this list.

>

>

> You make this statement:

> I think that the poll results (at least to date) fly in the face

of

> your claim that acupuncturists do not need to know WM because we

all

> make sure that our patients are being evaluated by an MD.

> *******************************

> Now where do I say Acupuncturists don't need to know WM. I had

hoped

> we could have a mneaningful dialogue but its does not seem

possible.

>

> I wish you the best in your persuits.

>

> Regards,

>

> david

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

David,

And what topic would that be as it seems to be all over the place?Mike W.

Bowser, L Ac

 

 

: acuprof:

Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:15:23 +0000Re: A case in point

 

 

 

 

Mike,I think I've made my position pretty clear as it pertains to your

unsolicited advice. Please, do your thing. Do what you do the way you like to do

it - anyway you like to do it. And you can rest assured that I'll do the

same.Anyway, I thought we were discussing the merits of specialization, not the

personalities of those involved in the discussion. but, since we are expressing

personal preferences, I'll take a shot as well.I'd prefer to keep the thread on

topic.David K.Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:>> David,> You might not want to display or at least

state things in this way> for future reference. I would also hope you drop the

sarcasm as> that is also very unprofessional. This has not helped convince us

of> your desire but does make one wonder what is going on. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac>

> > : ra6151: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:12:02

-0400Re: A case in point> > > > > I couldn't agree more, Andrea

Beth.--RoseAnne, L.Ac.

<: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:43:51

-0700 (PDT)Re: A case in pointOh, please...! Do I need to point

out how offensive this comment is? And howit alone can entirely topple the image

of professionalism all your previousposts have attempted to build? Sheesh!Andrea

Beth Damsky, L.Ac.David Karchmer <acuprof wrote:I'm just a vocal guywith a

box of needles who knows his way around a

vagina.Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!Play

Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at

Games.

[Guest guest]

whew! just got to the end of this thread. you boys have really been going

at it. David, can i just say, without meaning to put you on the defensive,

relax a little. i know you want to keep the discussion on topic, and not

get personal, but i have noticed through this whole ABORM debate that you

(and others) have tendency to get on the attack. i have felt it.

 

this is a really contentious issue. exploring the ramifications is

important. it gets emotional, because most of us are pretty passionate

about our practice of the medicine and the direction the profession is

going. david raised a strong point about listening and not just trolling

for points to debunk. i think it would be helpful if we (myself

included) could try to hear the others point of view, consider and respond

to that, rather than continuing to push our perspective. i think we've all

staked out our positions really well, so that there is no misunderstanding

about who's on what side of the fence on this. so i'm doubtful any of us

will be successful at 'converting an opponent'. let's keep this

debate friendly and amicable, we're all colleagues.

 

ok, now that that's off my chest, a few points on topic:

 

earlier on hugo made some points about effectiveness of ART.

 

i seem to recall reading some stats about IVF a few months ago on line (not

sure where) showing that it was under 20% effective (i recall a % in the low

teens). does my memory fail? i remember being shocked at this, esp.

considering the high cost of such an ineffective tx. and thinking if our

medicine was that ineffective we'ld never be able to even get a license to

practice, let along open our doors for business. does someone have an

accurate stat on the effectiveness of IVF they could provide? it would also

be interesting to see how much it's increased when acu is added (i recall

that success of IVF increases exponentially).

 

secondly:

 

the debate seems to have strayed from the org topic of certification to the

wider issue of specialization. although linked, i would point out that

these are different issues. (point of clarification). although they are

tied together since we're discussing a certification as a specialist.

 

i think that's part of the problem here, whether passing this test created

by a self appointed board with no oversight qualifies one as a specialist.

(no documentation of coursework or supervised clinical training is

necessary).

 

 

thirdly:

 

david: you presented a passionate argument about the knowledge of a

reproductive acu. and i see your point as to wanting to distinguish your

depth of knowledge in this field from a generalist, and am contemplating it.

 

 

a couple of points about this issue:

 

 

1. i like the term you threw in, reproductive acupuncturist. i might

address this query to mike b: is there any issue against someone like david

(who tx 95% infertility and clearly is accumulating an expertise in the

field), in absence of a $1000 certificate, or a DAOM in infertility, as

noting him/herself as a reproductive acupuncturist? i'm thinking in

marketing materials (since the 'need' for the cert seems to have much to do

with marketing) such as bus cards, website, etc.

2. on the DAOM: mike, i agree, in the future, that is the way to go:

it's legit and provides no doubt of adv. training in the field. but i hear

david, for the present moment, the initial students are beta testers for the

programs. i for one would also not consider enrolling in a DAOM program for

that reason. i also would expect to get a quality of classes from the DAOM

programs that is not yet developed.

3. this leads me back to a point i made early on: we have to accept

that we are pioneers in a developing profession. that means to me that

unfortunately people like david (or Dr. wannabees) don't get the titles yet

because the profession hasn't gotten that far.

4. Ray Rubio made some points who's logic i didn't quite agree with.

he said that when orgs like aaom and nccaom were formed, there weren't other

orgs to oversee them, so a group of practitioner's just got together and

started them, like what ABORM is doing. the difference is (and the flaw

in his logic) is that now we do have other orgs in place, and ABORM has leap

frogged over the proper channels in their (well meaning) haste to get their

$1000 certificate in place. there's a couple of real problems here for me.

 

 

Firstly, they are starting a precedent for other specialty wannabee's to

follow their models. regardless of whether or not their particular 'board'

is justifiable, it starts a precedent for others. this is truly problematic

since they have not gone through the proper channels to do this, and they

are opening the door for others to follow in their footsteps.

 

secondly, on this issue of going through the NCCA (do i have that one right,

the nat cert commiss?), he said they would get to that down the road. well

i think they are being too hasty about pushing out their product, they

should be working on the NCCA cert now, not as a later afterthought.

 

he said that when they first came up with the idea for ABORM the DAOM

programs weren't started yet. well, first, they knew the programs were on

the way. and second, they are out now, and in fact there is one in

infertility. so why not put their efforts into supporting/developing a

stellar DAOM in infertility rather that their quasi specialty certification

(quasi because it's unapproved by any kind of oversight, doesn't require

coursework or supervised clinical hours)? or put the energy into getting the

channels in place to support development of legitimit specialties.

 

on the issue of clinical training: he says they would work to develop

residencies. a medical specialty includes coursework and clinical

training. they've put the cart before the horse, putting out a specialty

certificate without documentation of coursework or clinical training. they

need to first get the coursework and clinical training in place, then

document it with a specialty. i don't think the argument that right now all

we have is a few ceu classes, a few fertility classes in the colleges and no

clinical training in the field holds water for putting out a specialty that

doesn't document these things. i believe their effort should properly be

goiing into getting these things in place first, and then documenting it

with a certificate or specialty title.

 

while i acknowledge their spunk and tenacity in seeing a problem/need and

rolling up their sleeves and solving it, i don't agree with taking it upon

themselves to put out a specialty certification without working with their

colleagues in the profession to see if others agree that this is the best

solution to the 'problem'.

 

i think this is part of the crux of the opposition to ABORM. that they

did not openly discuss their plans with the acu community, ask for comment,

work with the orgs and the community to see if others in the profession were

on board with their plan, etc. to me, i find it galling that they decided

that they know what's best and implemented it, without any kind of public

comment. they're not an org or a cert. body, they're just a group of people

with a collective body of knowledge in the field. but that doesn't justify

that this small group of [respected] colleagues knows what's best for the

profession and has the best solution for the problem they see. and that

this small group of colleagues implements something that could have huge

ramifications for the profession, without even caring to find out what the

rest of us think should be done or if we agree and want their solution.

 

this is problematic for me on many levels.

 

so what i hear from the repro acu's who support ABORM is that they do so

because they want acknowledgement of their niche practice. there are other

ways to convey this to the west med community and the gen public. but what

the supporters do not seem to get past is the larger ramifications of what

implementing this specialty certification in this manner means to the

profession and practice of tcm in the US.

 

so i think there are 2 major categories of issues here: specialties and

certifications, and the ramifications of what ABORM is doing by implementing

their specialty certification in this matter.

 

lastly: i would like to direct a comment to something david said earlier, in

his argument for a repro acu specialist: that a generalist wouldn't know how

to dx or tx adv or complicated conditions, or when to refer out. i agree

with your train of thought, that there's much a repro acu knows about the

field that a generalist doesn't, however, that doesn't mean that a

generalist doesn't know when to refer out, or, as hugo pointed out, do the

research to figure out how to tx the case. and i think that is a flaw in

your logic.

 

ok guys, be gentle.

 

kb

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/11/07, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David, I really believe that you are reading into my posts, but not

> reading them. That can really be a problem to communication. I hope that we

> can do better in future postings.

>

>

> David Karchmer <acuprof <acuprof%40hotmail.com>>

>

> First of all, IVF is expensive to administer in part because it

>

> takes very expensive technology to perform. A proper IVF facility

>

> can expect a start up cost of between $1-2 million.

>

> Expensive is not synonymous with deceitful or dishonest.

>

> Clearly IVF is an expensive treatment. Add ICSI to the mix and it is

>

> more costly. But, as for who should or should not choose the more

>

> expensive treatment, that is a matter of medical necessity and

>

> personal choice.

>

> Why should we rule out ART on the basis that it is costly?

>

> You said, " I have a particular concern with reproductive

>

> technologies (which are a part of the overall medical organisation,

>

> to be clear). The ethical question I brought up with the mechanic

>

> analogy is the following: if you can do something cheaply, why do it

>

> expensively? "

>

> Am I reading you correctly? Are you suggesting that there is

>

> something underhanded, or malevolant about ART?

>

> You also said, " Further, if there is no evidence to support the use

>

> of an expensive, invasive procedure over the use of a cheaper, non-

>

> invasive procedure, then what should one do? Further, what is the

>

> long-term evidence supporting the use of reproductive technologies?

>

> Where are the studies describing the misuse of reproductive

>

> technologies? "

>

> Just what do you mean by the " evidence supporting ART " or

>

> the " Misuse of ART? "

>

> IVF began as a way to help couples where the female partner had no

>

> functional falopian tubes. It is a way to achieve conception and

>

> carry a baby to term by bypassing missing or damaged tubes.

>

> Furthermore, if the male has no sperm in the ejaculate, sperm can be

>

> obtained by aspirating it through the epididymous or obtained from

>

> testicular tissue via testicular biopsy. At this point, the sperm

>

> obtained can be used to fertilize the egg by way of ICSI.

>

> Are you suggesting that a cheaper method (such as TCM) could be used

>

> instead of IVF in cases of absent oviducts or azoospermia? ?

>

> Really Hugo, I don't think I understand what point you are trying to

>

> make. It just sounds like some kind of Alternative Medicine

>

> conspiracy theory.

>

> Can you clarify?

>

> David Karchmer

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

>

> <subincor@.. .> wrote:

>

> >

>

> > Well David, tit for tat again I suppose. It's a little boring. I

>

> make a comment about mechanics and technological fixes and you think

>

> I shouldn't do that, and are offended(?), and yet you feel free to

>

> hit back with charges of intellectual dishonesty and

>

> irresponsibility (those are pretty serious, ya know). Have your cake

>

> and eat it too? I don't think so, at least not with me.

>

> > So anyway, if we're done with the alpha-male thing, let's move on.

>

> >

>

> > We have seen and documented, over and over, the human activities

>

> of corruption, power-mongering, etc etc. As a profession, we have

>

> seen supposed " scientists " dismiss reasoning, data, and evidence a

>

> priori, repeatedly. Some wiring is on the fritz there. I insist

>

> that intellectual bias as well as financial motivation are a huge

>

> factor in any organisation, and need to be dealt with ethically, as

>

> much as is possible. I have no particular concerns with ABORM over

>

> other organisations. ?I have a particular concern with reproductive

>

> technologies (which are a part of the overall medical organisation,

>

> to be clear). The ethical question I brought up with the mechanic

>

> analogy is the following: if you can do something cheaply, why do it

>

> expensively? Further, if there is no evidence to support the use of

>

> an expensive, invasive procedure over the use of a cheaper, non-

>

> invasive procedure, then what should one do? Further, what is the

>

> long-term evidence supporting the

>

> > use of reproductive technologies? Where are the studies

>

> describing the misuse of reproductive technologies

>

> > Is that clear enough for you? As a side-note, these are not jabs

>

> at you, these are simply restatements of what every single post of

>

> mine has been about. I'd also like to ask, where is the evidence

>

> that supports your point of view that we need certification? That

>

> specialist certification improves patient care and outcome? I am

>

> concerned that the CM profession is simply apeing western medical

>

> procedures and curricula. Don't even get me started on book learning

>

> as currently taught in many medical schools.

>

> > In any case, there is a great deal of controversy on whether to

>

> move forward or study more regarding reproductive technologies, but

>

> it might be interesting to look at ICSI (I don't care if nobody

>

> knows what that means, honestly) and how reproductive scientists

>

> feel about it:

>

> >

>

> > " No hard evidence presented at the moment can prove or disapprove

>

> ICSI's implications in epigenetic control. Nevertheless, we take the

>

> view that more comprehensive, long-term, and properly designed

>

> studies are imperative to be applied on a large-scale basis. We urge

>

> cautiousness, since the welfare of our progeny is what is at stake. "

>

> >

>

> > This is the ethical problem I've posed several times: " Our

>

> progeny are at stake " .

>

> >

>

> > Hugo

>

> >

>

> > ps - the writers are Greek, forgive their English spelling and

>

> grammar. Can be found at:

>

> > http://tinyurl. com/ypc66c

>

> >

>

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> #ygrp-vitnav a{

> padding:0 1px;}

> #ygrp-actbar{

> clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}

> #ygrp-actbar .left{

> float:left;white-space:nowrap;}

> .bld{font-weight:bold;}

> #ygrp-grft{

> font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}

> #ygrp-ft{

> font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;

> padding:5px 0;

> }

> #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{

> padding-bottom:10px;}

>

> #ygrp-vital{

> background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}

> #ygrp-vital #vithd{

>

font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:upp\

ercase;}

>

> #ygrp-vital ul{

> padding:0;margin:2px 0;}

> #ygrp-vital ul li{

> list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;

> }

> #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{

>

font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-ri\

ght:.5em;}

>

> #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{

> font-weight:bold;}

> #ygrp-vital a{

> text-decoration:none;}

>

> #ygrp-vital a:hover{

> text-decoration:underline;}

>

> #ygrp-sponsor #hd{

> color:#999;font-size:77%;}

> #ygrp-sponsor #ov{

> padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}

> #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{

> padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}

> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{

> list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}

> #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{

> text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}

> #ygrp-sponsor #nc{

> background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}

> #ygrp-sponsor .ad{

> padding:8px 0;}

> #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{

>

font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%\

;}

>

> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{

> text-decoration:none;}

> #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{

> text-decoration:underline;}

> #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{

> margin:0;}

> o{font-size:0;}

> .MsoNormal{

> margin:0 0 0 0;}

> #ygrp-text tt{

> font-size:120%;}

> blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}

> .replbq{margin:4;}

> -->

>

> ________

> Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit For Good

> http://uk.promotions./forgood/environment.html

>

>