Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. -Harvey FlatbushWednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AMfood pricesJust to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 lol. cute. Kenn Johnsen <kennj Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 5:30:44 PMRe: Fw: food prices From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US. Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush: I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. - Harvey Flatbush Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM food prices Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc.... You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. O.T. Act II it is apparently illegal to have more than would last for 5 days to 2 weeks. Anyone got any more insight on that? H. At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote: From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US. Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush: I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. - Harvey Flatbush Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM food prices Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc.... Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 2/04/2008 4:14 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 I'm not afraid. There is a vast difference between being informed and taking steps to counter-act it and just letting life take you by surprise.. Still, not afraid.. just informed.. :-) Lynda Blessed are the Cracked, For they are the Ones Who let in the Light! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. - Harvey Flatbush Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM food prices Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 They are not Patriots, just control minded nuts. Bob --- Hanneke <blosshan wrote: I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. O.T. Act IIit is apparently illegal to have more than would last for 5 days to 2weeks. Anyone got any more insight on that? H. At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote: From the law, I do not think itis legal anymore to store up foods in the US. Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush: I just received this from a Deputy Sherifffriend of mine. thought I would pass it one. - Harvey Flatbush Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM food prices Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices onfood are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and askedthem. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price-- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. Ifyou want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd bethings like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar,etc.... Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date:2/04/2008 4:14 PM ______________________________\ ____ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals./tc/blockbuster/text5.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie - Hanneke Wednesday, April 02, 2008 5:54 PM Re: Fw: food prices I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. O.T. Act II it is apparently illegal to have more than would last for 5 days to 2 weeks.Anyone got any more insight on that?H.At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote: From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush: I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. -Harvey FlatbushWednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AMfood pricesJust to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc...._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 In talking to DH last night, he decided to look up The Patriot Act once again. Nowhere could he find anything stating that you are limited to the amount of food you have on hand. He tries to keep on top of this type of stuff, so he is pretty accurate. Jackie is right, many different groups in this country, and others, require their members to keep a minimal of six months supply of food. We are not members of any group, yet we usually keep a few months supply of food. DH has done this for years, and will continue to do so. It is a smart thing, as you never know when you may not be able to get to a store, whether it be for a disaster or a personal trauma. It has happened to us also, a personal trauma, where we could not shop for months. Amy --- Jackie Davis <Hill8628 wrote: > How can this be inforced when you have many sects > including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year > supply of food on hand? I myself have a years > supply and am working up. So > by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any > worries. > > Jackie > > Re: Fw: food prices > > > I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. > O.T. Act II it is apparently illegal to have more > than would last for 5 days to 2 weeks. > Anyone got any more insight on that? > > H. > > At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote: > > From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore > to store up foods in the US. > > > > Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush: > > > I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff > friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. > > > - > ______________________________\ ____ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals./tc/blockbuster/text5.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2008 Report Share Posted April 3, 2008 At 06:21 AM 4/3/2008, you wrote: Did some research, and it turns out, there are no specific laws against " hoarding " food in the U.S. See http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html for a more thorough explanation. A number of other countries have them, but most of them are under a dictator or a communist. Curious, though, that what most people seem to be concerned about, are laws that Clinton kind of put together. A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft. I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place. People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us... Hanneke A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release Date: 3/04/2008 6:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote: No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion. But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a " final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know. I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, " there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things. Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past.............. Lynn PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile* Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft. I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place. People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us... Hanneke A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Checked by AVG. 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Guest guest Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 Hi Lynn For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression that although no expectations are held re the government looking after the people, there is the underlying expectation that the government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice things. I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but wherever in the world. I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago when Poland was in dire straits. People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and possible. Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right. I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong. We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases. Have you watched the U.N. Deception? http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0 We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right mate'. Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end. Hanneke At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote: At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote: No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion. But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a " final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know. I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, " there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things. Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past.............. Lynn PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile* Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft. I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place. People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us... Hanneke A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release Date: 3/04/2008 6:36 PM Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date: 4/04/2008 8:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:\ Hanneke, First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever seen........ I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, " power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. " Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years with students who were placed in the position of " guarding " fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all. As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way, because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do believe that they will. As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price, per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph, which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007. http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of health issues. IMO, the logic is the same...... I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may have contributed to what's been going on with me physically........without that information, people were kind of flying blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid judgement. Seems to me, anyway............ If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S. But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like that. I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents it. I hope what y'all say is right - " that we'll be alright. " All I know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out. Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as saying, " [the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of integrity. " Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything - *grin* Lynn PS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public: They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109 million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks feel........... When DH saw it, he went " Holy smokes........!! " Hi Lynn For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression that although no expectations are held re the government looking after the people, there is the underlying expectation that the government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice things. I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but wherever in the world. I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago when Poland was in dire straits. People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and possible. Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right. I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong. We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases. Have you watched the U.N. Deception? http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0 We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right mate'. Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end. Hanneke At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote: At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote: No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion. But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a " final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know. I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, " there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things. Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past.............. Lynn PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile* Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft. I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place. People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us... Hanneke A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Checked by AVG. 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Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 It was some time ago I had learnt that oil prices are no longer set by Opec, for about 15-20 odd years.. http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this. Hanneke At 12:19 PM 5/04/2008, you wrote: At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:\ Hanneke, First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever seen........ I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, " power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. " Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years with students who were placed in the position of " guarding " fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all. As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way, because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do believe that they will. As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price, per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph, which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007. http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of health issues. IMO, the logic is the same...... I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may have contributed to what's been going on with me physically........without that information, people were kind of flying blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid judgement. Seems to me, anyway............ If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S. But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like that. I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents it. I hope what y'all say is right - " that we'll be alright. " All I know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out. Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as saying, " [the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of integrity. " Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything - *grin* Lynn PS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public: They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109 million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks feel........... When DH saw it, he went " Holy smokes........!! " Hi Lynn For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression that although no expectations are held re the government looking after the people, there is the underlying expectation that the government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice things. I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but wherever in the world. I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago when Poland was in dire straits. People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and possible. Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right. I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong. We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases. Have you watched the U.N. Deception? http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0 We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right mate'. Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end. Hanneke At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote: At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote: No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion. But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a " final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know. I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, " there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things. Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past.............. Lynn PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile* Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft. I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place. People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us... Hanneke A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue. Lynn How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. Jackie Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release Date: 3/04/2008 6:36 PM Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date: 4/04/2008 8:23 AM Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date: 4/04/2008 8:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 At 10:17 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote: OK, but I also checked some other sites as well - don't think opec.org is exactly unbiased....*grin* Anyway, what you say is true to a degree, but it doesn't address the issue that OPEC sets production quotas - and that's what the price is primarily based upon. Certainly, everyone has got to realize that the people who actually have the oil and sell it, have something to do with the price....It says, in the very site you sent me to, that The Member Countries consider the current situation and forecasts of market fundamentals, such as economic growth rates and petroleum demand and supply scenarios. They then consider what, if any, changes they might make in their petroleum policies. For example, in previous Conferences the Member Countries have decided variously to raise or lower their collective oil production in order to maintain stable prices and steady supplies to consumers in the short, medium and longer term. If one reads between the lines a bit, it's just a fancy way of saying they control the price by what they give..... Lynn It was some time ago I had learnt that oil prices are no longer set by Opec, for about 15-20 odd years.. http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this. Hanneke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Sure.. bottom line is: the market makes the demand At 01:10 PM 5/04/2008, you wrote: At 10:17 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote: OK, but I also checked some other sites as well - don't think opec.org is exactly unbiased....*grin* Anyway, what you say is true to a degree, but it doesn't address the issue that OPEC sets production quotas - and that's what the price is primarily based upon. Certainly, everyone has got to realize that the people who actually have the oil and sell it, have something to do with the price....It says, in the very site you sent me to, that The Member Countries consider the current situation and forecasts of market fundamentals, such as economic growth rates and petroleum demand and supply scenarios. They then consider what, if any, changes they might make in their petroleum policies. For example, in previous Conferences the Member Countries have decided variously to raise or lower their collective oil production in order to maintain stable prices and steady supplies to consumers in the short, medium and longer term. If one reads between the lines a bit, it's just a fancy way of saying they control the price by what they give..... Lynn It was some time ago I had learnt that oil prices are no longer set by Opec, for about 15-20 odd years.. http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this. Hanneke Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date: 4/04/2008 8:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 How about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up.Den 05/04/2008 kl. 03.49 skrev Lynn Ward:At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:\Hanneke,First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever seen........I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years with students who were placed in the position of "guarding" fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all. As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way, because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do believe that they will.As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price, per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph, which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007. http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of health issues. IMO, the logic is the same......I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may have contributed to what's been going on with me physically........without that information, people were kind of flying blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid judgement. Seems to me, anyway............If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S. But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like that.I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents it.I hope what y'all say is right - "that we'll be alright." All I know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out. Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as saying, "[the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of integrity." Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything - *grin*LynnPS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public: They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109 million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks feel........... When DH saw it, he went "Holy smokes........!!"Hi LynnFor some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression that although no expectations are held re the government looking after the people, there is the underlying expectation that the government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice things.I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but wherever in the world. I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago when Poland was in dire straits.People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and possible.Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right. I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong. We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases. Have you watched the U.N. Deception? http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0 We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right mate'.Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end.HannekeAt 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote:At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote:No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additionalfood supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a "final version" in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know.I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, "there are no atheists in the foxhole." By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past..............LynnPS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft.I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place.People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us...HannekeA pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue.LynnHow can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. JackieChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release 3/04/2008 6:36 PMChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release 4/04/2008 8:23 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote: Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant, " it's the U.S.s " fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah..... I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us alone. Don't even buy things that are manufactured or are through American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how the various economies fare. It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old " sticks and stones thing. " But, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you say and do. Lynn How about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 I think most people are thinking of the US government when they say that not the people. There is not much doubt in my mind that the US government is the most corrupt of the developed world---well at least out and out--but under the covers our (Canadian) government is just as evil now with the advent of Harper. I would say the British government under Blair was equally evil---don't know about the new guy. In Australia Howard was also just as evil but the new guy shows quite a bit of promise--may he stay that way. And then there are the Europeans---they are right up there too... Well that is my political synopsis in a nutshell. They all work for the same masters anyway...Lynn Ward <lynnward wrote: At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote:Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us alone. Don't even buy things that are manufactured or are through American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how the various economies fare. It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old "sticks and stones thing." But, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you say and do.Lynn How about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 No government helps because they want to help those they suppose to help, they ""help"" because it gives them power over those they are ""helping""Den 05/04/2008 kl. 20.18 skrev Lynn Ward:At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote:Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us alone. Don't even buy things that are manufactured or are through American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how the various economies fare. It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old "sticks and stones thing." But, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you say and do.LynnHow about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 you said: I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah..... Errrrrr I believe tiz the FIRST WORLD 'per se' .... not simply the USA...... we have taken and taken and taken some more.... ever selfishly..... it is coming back at us now...... Clare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 you mean like stop giving israel 15 million us a day......and now they are demanding it in euro's........kraig Kraig Carroll Environmental Damage Repair --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release 2/14/05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 It amuse me that they got the nerve to demand their welfare in euro.Den 06/04/2008 kl. 00.13 skrev thehavens:you mean like stop giving israel 15 million us a day......and now they are demanding it in euro's........kraigKraig CarrollEnvironmental Damage Repair ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release 2/14/05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 At 05:01 PM 4/5/2008, you wrote: whatever............still say, if we're so damn corrupt, and so damn bad, people should keep their hands in their pockets and not ask for help or asylum .....tell you what - why don't we start sending folks to Denmark and see how y'all do............... I'm fed up with the US bashing..........nothing the US, or people in the US ever satisfies, so I'm all for quitting. Pull everyone out of everywhere and let people fight it out amongst themselves. Stop sending aid. Let's really take care of our own for a change...........I could care less at this point. But, when things don't work out, don't come crying to us.......there must be some reason why there are so many immigrants in the US. So many illegals. Sure, it's not perfect,. but what government is? But, it seems to look pretty good to an awful lot of people - I don't see people streaming to Venezuela, or Cuba, or Saudia Arabia, or...........how many countries do you want me to name? Sometimes, Kenn, you need to just leave it alone....... No government helps because they want to help those they suppose to help, they " " help " " because it gives them power over those they are " " helping " " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2008 Report Share Posted April 6, 2008 At 05:23 PM 4/5/2008, you wrote: Yeah, as far as poisoning the earth and so on, it is. But, there is a constant stream of stuff about how bad and in what terrible shape the US is in. Perhaps you haven't noticed it. Perhaps because you don't live here. don't know. Lynn you said: I tire of the constant, " it's the U.S.s " fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah..... Errrrrr I believe tiz the FIRST WORLD 'per se' .... not simply the USA...... we have taken and taken and taken some more.... ever selfishly..... it is coming back at us now...... Clare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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