Fw: food prices

[Guest guest]

From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. -Harvey FlatbushWednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AMfood pricesJust to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc....

[Guest guest]

lol. cute.

Kenn Johnsen <kennj Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 5:30:44 PMRe: Fw: food prices

 

From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.

 

 

 

Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one.

 

 

-

 

Harvey Flatbush

Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM

food prices

Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc....

 

You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

[Guest guest]

I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. O.T. Act II

it is apparently illegal to have more than would last for 5 days to 2

weeks.

Anyone got any more insight on that?

H.

At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote:

From the law, I do not think it

is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.

 

Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:

 

I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff

friend of mine. thought I would pass it one.

 

 

-

 

Harvey Flatbush

Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM

food prices

Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on

food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked

them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price

-- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April

9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If

you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be

things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar,

etc....

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date:

2/04/2008 4:14 PM

[Guest guest]

I'm not afraid. There is a vast difference between being informed and taking steps to counter-act it and just letting life take you by surprise.. Still, not afraid.. just informed.. :-) Lynda Blessed are the Cracked, For they are the Ones Who let in the Light!

[Guest guest]

I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one.

 

 

-

Harvey Flatbush

Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM

food prices

Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc....

[Guest guest]

They are not Patriots, just control minded nuts.

Bob

 

--- Hanneke <blosshan wrote:

 

 

 

 

I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I.

O.T. Act IIit is apparently illegal to have more than

would last for 5 days to 2weeks.

Anyone got any more insight on that?

 

H.

 

At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote:

From the law, I do not think itis legal anymore to

store up foods in the US.

 

 

 

Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:

 

I just received this from a Deputy Sherifffriend of

mine. thought I would pass it one.

 

 

-

 

Harvey Flatbush

Wednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AM

food prices

 

Just to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco

said prices onfood are going to skyrocket. I went to

Cash and Carry and askedthem. The guy there told me

that heavy items are going up in price-- some things

will double in price -- between March 31 and April9th.

He said it was because of the higher price of gas.

Ifyou want anything, you might want to get it now. He

said it'd bethings like canned goods and things like

bulk flour and sugar,etc....

 

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 -

Release Date:2/04/2008 4:14 PM

 

 

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total

Access, No Cost.

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[Guest guest]

How can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

-

Hanneke

Wednesday, April 02, 2008 5:54 PM

Re: Fw: food prices

I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I. O.T. Act II it is apparently illegal to have more than would last for 5 days to 2 weeks.Anyone got any more insight on that?H.At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote:

From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore to store up foods in the US.Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:

I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff friend of mine. thought I would pass it one. -Harvey FlatbushWednesday, April 02, 2008 8:16 AMfood pricesJust to let you know, a friend, told me that Costco said prices on food are going to skyrocket. I went to Cash and Carry and asked them. The guy there told me that heavy items are going up in price -- some things will double in price -- between March 31 and April 9th. He said it was because of the higher price of gas. If you want anything, you might want to get it now. He said it'd be things like canned goods and things like bulk flour and sugar, etc...._,___

[Guest guest]

In talking to DH last night, he decided to look up The

Patriot Act once again. Nowhere could he find

anything stating that you are limited to the amount of

food you have on hand. He tries to keep on top of

this type of stuff, so he is pretty accurate.

Jackie is right, many different groups in this

country, and others, require their members to keep a

minimal of six months supply of food. We are not

members of any group, yet we usually keep a few months

supply of food. DH has done this for years, and will

continue to do so.

It is a smart thing, as you never know when you may

not be able to get to a store, whether it be for a

disaster or a personal trauma. It has happened to us

also, a personal trauma, where we could not shop for

months.

 

Amy

 

 

 

--- Jackie Davis <Hill8628 wrote:

 

> How can this be inforced when you have many sects

> including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year

> supply of food on hand? I myself have a years

> supply and am working up. So

> by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any

> worries.

>

> Jackie

>

> Re: Fw: food prices

>

>

> I think you are right Kenn. Since the P.A.T.R.I.

> O.T. Act II it is apparently illegal to have more

> than would last for 5 days to 2 weeks.

> Anyone got any more insight on that?

>

> H.

>

> At 08:00 AM 3/04/2008, you wrote:

>

> From the law, I do not think it is legal anymore

> to store up foods in the US.

>

>

>

> Den 03/04/2008 kl. 08.56 skrev Harvey Flatbush:

>

>

> I just received this from a Deputy Sheriff

> friend of mine. thought I would pass it one.

>

>

> -

>

 

 

______________________________\

____

You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total

Access, No Cost.

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[Guest guest]

At 06:21 AM 4/3/2008, you wrote:

Did some research, and it turns out, there are no specific laws against

" hoarding " food in the U.S. See

 

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html for a more

thorough explanation. A number of other countries have them, but most of

them are under a dictator or a communist. Curious, though, that what most

people seem to be concerned about, are laws that Clinton kind of put

together.

A pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this

be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught

to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years

supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have

been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I

couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH

can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know

that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on

hand, I didn't have any worries.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as

such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real

thing. Have tried before to find the final draft.

I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no

hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in

place.

People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read

up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again,

will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be

implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still

thinking along the lines of: the government will look after

us and do nothing nasty to us...

Hanneke

 

 

 

A pretty good analysis of the

Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this be

inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to

have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply

and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been

in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't

get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop

except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop

in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't

have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

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3/04/2008 6:36 PM

[Guest guest]

At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote:

No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the

gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less

government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the

workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in

the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people,

not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and

try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US.

I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be

called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are

expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to

the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch

really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the

increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up.

But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time -

it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of

the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in

additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html

 

I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed.

While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I

do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot

of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S.

that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will

get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.

But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from

the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the

U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in

'03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a

" final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been

passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed

Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I

would also like to know.

I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world

that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate

variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate -

but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile

Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food,

we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite

political differences, differences in laws in various states, and

differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same

country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are

afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be

remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned

during the great depression are still there. That states would put their

differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis.

 

Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive?

Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as

similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying,

" there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during

a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and

work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then

they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people

pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we

were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not

everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of

hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they

have so many times in the past..............

Lynn

PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything

beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it

in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the

President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us

felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*

 

Yes I had read the Patriot Act

II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is

the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before

to find the final draft.

I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no

hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in

place.

People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read

up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again,

will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be

implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still

thinking along the lines of: the government will look after

us and do nothing nasty to us...

 

Hanneke

 

 

 

A pretty good analysis of the

Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this

be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught

to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years

supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have

been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I

couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH

can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know

that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on

hand, I didn't have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

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3/04/2008 6:36 PM

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn

For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have

written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression

that although no expectations are held re the government looking after

the people, there is the underlying expectation that the

government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to

push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice

things.

I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the

people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but

wherever in the world.

I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz

only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas

most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs

full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago

when Poland was in dire straits.

People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and

possible.

Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the

Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right.

I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government

the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong.

We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for

the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever

have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases.

Have you watched the U.N. Deception?

 

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0

 

We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are

really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right

mate'.

Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end.

Hanneke

 

 

At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote:

At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you

wrote:

No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the

gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less

government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the

workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in

the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people,

not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and

try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US.

 

I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be

called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are

expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to

the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch

really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the

increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up.

But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time -

it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of

the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in

additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html

 

I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed.

While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I

do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot

of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S.

that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will

get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.

But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from

the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the

U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in

'03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a

" final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been

passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed

Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I

would also like to know.

I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world

that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate

variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate -

but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile

Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food,

we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite

political differences, differences in laws in various states, and

differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same

country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are

afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be

remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned

during the great depression are still there. That states would put their

differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis.

 

Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive?

Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as

similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying,

" there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during

a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and

work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then

they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people

pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we

were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not

everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of

hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they

have so many times in the past..............

Lynn

PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything

beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it

in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the

President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us

felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*

 

Yes I had read the Patriot Act

II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is

the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before

to find the final draft.

I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no

hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in

place.

People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read

up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again,

will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be

implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still

thinking along the lines of: the government will look after

us and do nothing nasty to us...

Hanneke

 

 

 

A pretty good analysis of the

Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this be

inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to

have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply

and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been

in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't

get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop

except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop

in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't

have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

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Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date:

4/04/2008 8:23 AM

[Guest guest]

At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:\

Hanneke,

First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may

be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've

written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't

think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on

point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the

same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think

they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever

seen........

I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of

doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a

long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during

that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see

how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just

about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more

power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, " power

corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. "

Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years

with students who were placed in the position of " guarding "

fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The

outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People

in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy

theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical

to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all.

As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds

idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way,

because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do

believe that they will.

As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil

companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for

a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and

the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the

price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how

anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price,

per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't

all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph,

which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007.

 

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could

possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand

why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the

prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want

to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't

think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all

the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of

health issues. IMO, the logic is the same......

I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what

I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all

have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a

long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may

have contributed to what's been going on with me

physically........without that information, people were kind of flying

blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I

do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical

issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all

the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid

judgement. Seems to me, anyway............

If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price

increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S.

But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the

greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the

oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's

far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like

that.

I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as

some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics

that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a

certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big

family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of

the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but

more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of

what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has

been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they

will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine

what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to

find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their

perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is

somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when

you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both

have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite

what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which

is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political

ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more

complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents

it.

I hope what y'all say is right - " that we'll be alright. " All I

know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever

eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often

wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could

have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out.

Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a

million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but

it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a

local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of

Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were

afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but

her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power

over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the

registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as

saying, " [the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of

integrity. " Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct

quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd

arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything

- *grin*

Lynn

PS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public:

They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109

million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million

dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks

feel........... When DH saw it, he went " Holy

smokes........!! "

 

Hi Lynn

For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have

written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression

that although no expectations are held re the government looking after

the people, there is the underlying expectation that the

government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to

push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice

things.

I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the

people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but

wherever in the world.

I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz

only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas

most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs

full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago

when Poland was in dire straits.

People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and

possible.

Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the

Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right.

I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government

the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong.

We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for

the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever

have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases.

Have you watched the U.N. Deception?

 

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0

 

We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are

really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right

mate'.

Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end.

Hanneke

 

 

At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote:

At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you

wrote:

No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the

gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less

government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the

workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in

the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people,

not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and

try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US.

I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be

called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are

expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to

the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch

really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the

increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up.

But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time -

it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of

the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in

additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html

 

 

I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed.

While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I

do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot

of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S.

that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will

get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.

But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from

the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the

U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in

'03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a

" final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been

passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed

Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I

would also like to know.

I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world

that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate

variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate -

but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile

Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food,

we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite

political differences, differences in laws in various states, and

differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same

country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are

afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be

remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned

during the great depression are still there. That states would put their

differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis.

 

Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive?

Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as

similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying,

" there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during

a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and

work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then

they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people

pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we

were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not

everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of

hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they

have so many times in the past..............

Lynn

PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything

beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it

in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the

President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us

felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*

 

Yes I had read the Patriot Act

II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is

the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before

to find the final draft.

I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no

hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in

place.

People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read

up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again,

will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be

implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still

thinking along the lines of: the government will look after

us and do nothing nasty to us...

Hanneke

 

 

 

A pretty good analysis of the

Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this

be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught

to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years

supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have

been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I

couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH

can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know

that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on

hand, I didn't have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release Date:

3/04/2008 6:36 PM

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date:

4/04/2008 8:23 AM

[Guest guest]

It was some time ago I had learnt that oil prices are no longer set by

Opec, for about 15-20 odd years..

 

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm

I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this.

Hanneke

At 12:19 PM 5/04/2008, you wrote:

At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you

wrote:\

Hanneke,

First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may

be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've

written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't

think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on

point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the

same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think

they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever

seen........

I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of

doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a

long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during

that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see

how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just

about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more

power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, " power

corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. "

Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years

with students who were placed in the position of " guarding "

fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The

outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People

in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy

theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical

to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all.

As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds

idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way,

because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do

believe that they will.

As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil

companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for

a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and

the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the

price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how

anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price,

per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't

all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph,

which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007.

 

http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could

possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand

why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the

prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want

to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't

think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all

the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of

health issues. IMO, the logic is the same......

I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what

I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all

have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a

long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may

have contributed to what's been going on with me

physically........without that information, people were kind of flying

blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I

do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical

issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all

the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid

judgement. Seems to me, anyway............

If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price

increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S.

But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the

greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the

oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's

far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like

that.

I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as

some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics

that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a

certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big

family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of

the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but

more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of

what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has

been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they

will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine

what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to

find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their

perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is

somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when

you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both

have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite

what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which

is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political

ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more

complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents

it.

I hope what y'all say is right - " that we'll be alright. " All I

know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever

eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often

wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could

have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out.

Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a

million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but

it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a

local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of

Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were

afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but

her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power

over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the

registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as

saying, " [the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of

integrity. " Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct

quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd

arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything

- *grin*

Lynn

PS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public:

They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109

million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million

dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks

feel........... When DH saw it, he went " Holy

smokes........!! "

 

Hi Lynn

For some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have

written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression

that although no expectations are held re the government looking after

the people, there is the underlying expectation that the

government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to

push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice

things.

I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the

people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but

wherever in the world.

I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz

only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas

most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs

full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago

when Poland was in dire straits.

People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and

possible.

Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the

Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right.

I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government

the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong.

We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for

the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever

have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases.

Have you watched the U.N. Deception?

 

http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0

 

We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are

really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right

mate'.

Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end.

Hanneke

 

 

At 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote:

At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you

wrote:

No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the

gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less

government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the

workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in

the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people,

not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and

try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US.

I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be

called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are

expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to

the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch

really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the

increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up.

But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time -

it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of

the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in

additional food supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html

 

 

I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed.

While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I

do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot

of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S.

that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will

get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.

But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from

the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the

U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in

'03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a

" final version " in '04, which doesn't appear to have been

passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed

Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I

would also like to know.

I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world

that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate

variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate -

but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile

Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food,

we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite

political differences, differences in laws in various states, and

differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same

country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are

afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be

remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned

during the great depression are still there. That states would put their

differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis.

 

Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive?

Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as

similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying,

" there are no atheists in the foxhole. " By that I mean, during

a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and

work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then

they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people

pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we

were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not

everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of

hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they

have so many times in the past..............

Lynn

PS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything

beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it

in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the

President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us

felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*

 

Yes I had read the Patriot Act

II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is

the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before

to find the final draft.

I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no

hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in

place.

People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read

up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again,

will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be

implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still

thinking along the lines of: the government will look after

us and do nothing nasty to us...

Hanneke

 

 

 

A pretty good analysis of the

Patriot Act II can be found at

 

http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php

 

So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't

store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be

an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be

concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding

that particular issue.

Lynn

 

How can this be

inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to

have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply

and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been

in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't

get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop

except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop

in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't

have any worries.

 

Jackie

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release Date:

3/04/2008 6:36 PM

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date:

4/04/2008 8:23 AM

 

Checked by AVG.

Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release Date:

4/04/2008 8:23 AM

[Guest guest]

At 10:17 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:

OK, but I also checked some other sites as well - don't think opec.org is

exactly unbiased....*grin* Anyway, what you say is true to a degree, but

it doesn't address the issue that OPEC sets production quotas - and

that's what the price is primarily based upon. Certainly, everyone has

got to realize that the people who actually have the oil and sell it,

have something to do with the price....It says, in the very site you sent

me to, that The Member Countries consider the current situation and

forecasts of market fundamentals, such as economic growth rates and

petroleum demand and supply scenarios. They then consider what, if any,

changes they might make in their petroleum policies. For example, in

previous Conferences the Member Countries have decided variously to raise

or lower their collective oil production in order to maintain stable

prices and steady supplies to consumers in the short, medium and longer

term. If one reads between the lines a bit, it's just a fancy way

of saying they control the price by what they give.....

Lynn

 

It was some time ago I had

learnt that oil prices are no longer set by Opec, for about 15-20 odd

years..

 

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm

I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this.

Hanneke

[Guest guest]

Sure.. bottom line is: the market makes the demand

At 01:10 PM 5/04/2008, you wrote:

At 10:17 PM 4/4/2008, you

wrote:

OK, but I also checked some other sites as well - don't think opec.org is

exactly unbiased....*grin* Anyway, what you say is true to a degree, but

it doesn't address the issue that OPEC sets production quotas - and

that's what the price is primarily based upon. Certainly, everyone has

got to realize that the people who actually have the oil and sell it,

have something to do with the price....It says, in the very site you sent

me to, that The Member Countries consider the current situation and

forecasts of market fundamentals, such as economic growth rates and

petroleum demand and supply scenarios. They then consider what, if any,

changes they might make in their petroleum policies. For example, in

previous Conferences the Member Countries have decided variously to raise

or lower their collective oil production in order to maintain stable

prices and steady supplies to consumers in the short, medium and longer

term. If one reads between the lines a bit, it's just a fancy way

of saying they control the price by what they give.....

Lynn

 

It was some time ago I had

learnt that oil prices are no longer set by Opec, for about 15-20 odd

years..

 

http://www.opec.org/library/FAQs/aboutOPEC/q20.htm

I am sure there is much more and more definite reports on this.

Hanneke

 

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How about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up.Den 05/04/2008 kl. 03.49 skrev Lynn Ward:At 04:08 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:\Hanneke,First, let me say I'm sorry if I wander a bit in my post - I think I may be more tired than I realized. I always try to read what I've written before I send it so I can catch any obvious errors, and I don't think I was as direct as I sometimes am. So, sorry if I'm not always on point - it made sense to me when I wrote it, but didn't sound quite the same when I read it..........Oh, and I didn't address the U.N. I think they are about as corrupt and worthless a group as I have ever seen........I do think the government, or at least parts of it are very capable of doing certain things for whatever agenda they have. ...(at one point, a long time ago, I wanted to be a spy for the CIA. Honest. ...but, during that process they had us read a lot of things - I think, in part, to see how we reacted to what we were given) ........ I basically think just about all organizations or groups are corrupt to some degree. The more power, the more corrupt. I'm sure you know that saying, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." Some really interesting studies done back when I was wet behind the years with students who were placed in the position of "guarding" fellow students who, for the purpose of the study, were prisoners. The outcome was surprising. Now, that I know more, it was predictable. People in power abused that power...I am also believer in certain conspiracy theories, and have been for quite some time. But, some seem more logical to me than others. IMO, some don't make any sense at all. As far as people pulling together and all that - I know it sounds idealistic, and sometimes I could smack myself for feeling that way, because I'm actually pretty cynical about people in general.....But, I do believe that they will.As far as the oil issue goes - there is no question that the large oil companies make huge profits........But, aside from the profit issue, for a sec, many of them do get their oil from Arabs - OPEC . The fact is, and the fact people seem to keep ignoring, is that OPEC has hiked up the price per barrel, and has kept doing so for a while. I don't know how anyone can dispute that. It's a hard fact, easily verified. The price, per barrel, as of today, is more than $104 a barrel...........It wasn't all that long ago it was $32 a barrel. There is an interesting graph, which shows the prices of oil from 1947 to 2007. http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm While I do agree that the oil companies make a huge profit, and could possible reduce the price and and have fewer profits - I don't understand why, in just about every discussion the fact that OPEC has hiked up the prices dramatically never comes up. It's almost as if people don't want to admit they exist or something - maybe because it's not PC. I don't think that people can really deal with a problem, until they look at all the factors - kind of like what people in this group do with a number of health issues. IMO, the logic is the same......I'll make it personal. It's like I keep telling people that I watch what I eat, try not to eat fake stuff, don't drink sodas, etc. But, as y'all have recently found out, because I told you, I smoke. And have done for a long time. Well, as some have pointed out, the garbage in cigarettes may have contributed to what's been going on with me physically........without that information, people were kind of flying blind. Didn't have all the facts. It's not until I consider everything I do and everything I take that I may find a resolution to my physical issues - if there is one. To me it's the same - one has to consider all the aspects of what's going on, before one can make a true and solid judgement. Seems to me, anyway............If you want to know the truth, I think Power is at the base of the price increases. Power that OPEC wants to have, in particular, over the U.S. But has over any nation who buys oil from them. Couple that with the greed of the oil companies - and we have what we have now. In the US, the oil companies are usually blamed for what's going on. but, I think that's far too simplistic. There is rarely such a simple answer to issues like that.I think most issues have several facets - things are rarely as simple as some would have us believe. In my mind, it's something like the dynamics that go on in a large family - on the face of it, things appear to be a certain way. But, if you ever talk with the kids who are from a big family, you know each one has a different view of how they grew up,and of the reality of their family. They do have certain things in common, but more often than not, it's surprising how different each kid's view is of what went on in that family. If one is a family therapist, say, and has been engaged to try and help that family, one of the first things they will do, is determine the dynamics of the family. Then, try to determine what is true and what is only thought to be true. Then, one would try to find out how the different parts of the family function, and what their perception of the family is. Usually, the Truth of the situation is somewhere between what everyone thinks individually. You know, like when you talk to someone who is having a problem with someone else. They both have their views of the relationship, but often, the Truth is not quite what one person or the other thinks - it's somewhere in the middle. Which is basically the way I view a number of issues - especially political ones. The only thing I know for sure, is things are usually a lot more complex than people think they are, or the way the media presents it.I hope what y'all say is right - "that we'll be alright." All I know, are the only things I can do, is to try and prepare for whatever eventuality there is. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. I often wish I were a reporter again - at least then I felt as though I could have an impact on things - usually by trying to get the Truth out. Haven't mentioned this yet, but at one point, I was being sued for a million dollars - as was the paper. There was no basis for the suit, but it was a shocker. What I had done, was report, and give a quote on a local politician who was running for office. She reminds me a lot of Hillary Clinton. This woman was not to be trusted, but most people were afraid to say anything like that because not only was she in office, but her husband had a position of power as well. They'd had a lot of power over the years, and had really abused it. Anyway, I quoted someone in the registrar's office, where they dealt with certain voting issues as saying, "[the woman's name] didn't have a thimble-full of integrity." Naturally, the woman was very upset. but,it was a direct quote. No basis for a lawsuit, but it sure made me feel as though I'd arrived...........Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything - *grin*LynnPS Speaking of Hillary - they've finally made their tax returns public: They've paid $34 million in taxes over eight years, and earned $109 million during that period. That breaks down to about $13.6 million dollars a year!!! And she says she knows how the little folks feel........... When DH saw it, he went "Holy smokes........!!"Hi LynnFor some reason, I have rather mixed thoughts about what you have written. Not quite sure what, but a few things give me impression that although no expectations are held re the government looking after the people, there is the underlying expectation that the government as is would not be resorting to taking measurements to push through their own ideologies which may involve not so nice things.I agree with you that in times as the 9/11 disaster has shown , the people will pull together. Not just for disasters involving their own but wherever in the world. I do remember the food and supply trains, (road and raylway) here in Oz only a couple of years ago trucking/transporting foods to those areas most severely affected by the drought, or the huge road rigs full of food, clothes and other necessities in Europe years ago when Poland was in dire straits.People will pull together wherever and whenever needed and possible.Re the oil price rises.. for some reason to put the blame on the Arab countries sounds a little naive to me but you could be right. I tend to think the causes are closely tied up with US Government the CFR and the bankers world but again, I might be wrong. We all experience the prices going up and mostly the reasons given for the price increases is either oil or global warming. Hardly ever have I heard the word greed mentioned for price increases. Have you watched the U.N. Deception? http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2634703139474212867 & q=UN+Deception & total=149 & start=0 & num=50 & so=0 & type=search & plindex=0 We have a saying here in Oz whenever problems arise which are really a bit beyond one's ability to solve alone: 'we'll be right mate'.Let's hope we're going to be all ok, in the end.HannekeAt 06:04 AM 5/04/2008, you wrote:At 10:57 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote:No, not at all..........and, for me, it isn't an issue of whether the gov't will take care of us or not - most conservatives want less government, not more. Less government intrusion into our lives and the workings of our families, not more..........There may be food shortage in the U.S. in the future. The only thing I really object to, is how people, not even necessarily you, extrapolate what's happening in some places and try to apply it to what's happening here - in the US. I just read this morning, how the folks at the World Food Bank (could be called something else, but you get the idea) said 33 countries are expected to have social unrest due to problems with food - in part due to the increased price in oil (for which the Arabs and that whole bunch really need to be blamed more than the oil companies), and also the increased price of goods - which naturally would go up when oil goes up. But, most of these places have had problems with food for a long time - it's nothing new. Only the degree. The WFB, which is under the purview of the U.N. has said they want contributions to increase to $500 million in additionalfood supplies etc. Pretty good article on this at http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200804/NAT20080403c.html I've said, and will continue to say, I think for-warned is for-armed. While I'm not convinced there will be a food shortage per se in the US, I do think prices will continue to rise, making it more difficult for a lot of folks. I think, because there is so much available land in the U.S. that isn't being used for farming, that if things do get bad, they will get pressed into action. Just my personal opinion.But, I don't think it's helpful to tell people something is coming from the gov't when it isn't. At least, when it's not coming from our, the U.S.'s gov't. You're right - the link was to a draft that came out in '03. I've looked, but am unable to find a final version, just a "final version" in '04, which doesn't appear to have been passed. It appears, from what one can and can not find, that the proposed Patriot Act II, was never ratified. If I'm wrong, please correct me, as I would also like to know.I think the U.S. is in a unique position - there is nowhere in the world that is quite like it - in terms of size, usable land and climate variety. There are places, like Africa, which has both land and climate - but it's split into a bunch of different nations. Same with the erstwhile Soviet Union. Unlike many places that have such problems with food, we have ample land, and places where things can grow.Plus, despite political differences, differences in laws in various states, and differences from state to state - we ultimately all belong to the same country. I find it difficult to believe, if a crisis like so many are afraid of, really came down the pike, that somehow, it couldn't be remedied. Or, at least, be worked with. I think the lessons learned during the great depression are still there. That states would put their differences aside for the common good - at least during a crisis. Do I think there might be less available? Possibly. More expensive? Probably. Less variety? Also probably. But, in a way, I look at it as similar to what happens to people in combat. There is an old saying, "there are no atheists in the foxhole." By that I mean, during a real crisis, people in the U.S. will put aside their differences, and work together for the common good - until the crisis is over, then they'll go back to doing what they were doing. I think the way people pulled together after 911 is a good example of that. For a brief time, we were all on the same side - all concerned about the same things.Of course, I could be totally wrong. Too idealistic. It's true, that not everyone responds to a crisis the same way. I guess, in my heart of hearts, though, I really do think Americans would pull together as they have so many times in the past..............LynnPS. When DH got home, he checked as well, and couldn't find anything beyond a Congressional watch site that said they were going to discuss it in '03. Nary a thing about it being ratified or signed by the President............Good thing you brought it up - I think most of us felt it was signed, sealed and delivered...........*smile*Yes I had read the Patriot Act II before, and it doesn't spell it out as such. However, this is the draft of that second act, not the real thing. Have tried before to find the final draft.I will try and get in touch with the person who asserted the no hoarding of food thing. It is in case of martial law is put in place.People would not have to fear anything if only they would learn and read up on what the Government is doing. Having awareness, once again, will empower them to do something about it and Martial Law will never be implemented. However, I get the impression that too many are still thinking along the lines of: the government will look after us and do nothing nasty to us...HannekeA pretty good analysis of the Patriot Act II can be found at http://w2.eff.org/Censorship/Terrorism_militias/patriot-act-II-analysis.php So, I wouldn't worry that anyone is going to come and tell you, you can't store some food up. Perhaps if there was a warehouse full, there might be an issue - I don't know. But, the average American doesn't need to be concerned, despite the frightening things people are passing on regarding that particular issue.LynnHow can this be inforced when you have many sects including the Amish that are taught to have a 3 year supply of food on hand? I myself have a years supply and am working up. If I hadn't had this supply, I would have been in very bad shape the 6 months I ended up housebound. I couldn't get out. I even had at home physical therapy. DH can't shop except for a five minute walk in and out---who do you know that can shop in 5 minutes once a week? So by having the supply on hand, I didn't have any worries. JackieChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1358 - Release 3/04/2008 6:36 PMChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1359 - Release 4/04/2008 8:23 AM

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At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote:

Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple

economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant,

" it's the U.S.s " fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah,

blah.....

I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various

parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be

a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull

together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so

bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for

any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America

should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us

alone. Don't even buy things that are manufactured or are through

American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of

countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite

what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their

hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how

the various economies fare.

It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a

villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old " sticks

and stones thing. " But, it's a lot more difficult to point the

finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you

say and do.

Lynn

 

How about yourself, the

Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up.

[Guest guest]

I think most people are thinking of the US government when they say that not the people. There is not much doubt in my mind that the US government is the most corrupt of the developed world---well at least out and out--but under the covers our (Canadian) government is just as evil now with the advent of Harper. I would say the British government under Blair was equally evil---don't know about the new guy. In Australia Howard was also just as evil but the new guy shows quite a bit of promise--may he stay that way. And then there are the Europeans---they are right up there too... Well that is my political synopsis in a nutshell. They all work for the same masters anyway...Lynn Ward <lynnward wrote: At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote:Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us alone. Don't even buy

things that are manufactured or are through American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how the various economies fare. It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old "sticks and stones thing." But, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you say and do.Lynn How about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up.

You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.

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No government helps because they want to help those they suppose to help, they ""help"" because it gives them power over those they are ""helping""Den 05/04/2008 kl. 20.18 skrev Lynn Ward:At 08:20 AM 4/5/2008, you wrote:Whenever there is less of anything, the price goes up - simple economics........but to be totally honest, I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....I've lived a lot of places in my life, and have spent half of in various parts of Europe. So, I've got a pretty good idea how people are. I may be a little naive when I think in a crisis Americans, especially, will pull together. I don't know. Time will tell. But, if everyone thinks we're so bad, and so corrupt, stop taking or wanting stuff from us. Don't ask for any help. People are always saying, America should do this, America should do that ...........if we're so bad, so corrupt, just leave us alone. Don't even buy things that are manufactured or are through American-based companies. I doubt if we'd really suffer if a couple of countries decided they didn't want our help. Seems to me that, despite what people keep saying about. America, they sure are quick to have their hand out. Pull all of the military bases out of Europe - we'll see how the various economies fare. It's easy, and probably a lot more comfortable to say someone is a villain, when you know they won't retaliate. It's that old "sticks and stones thing." But, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger at certain groups, when you know you'll pay heavily for what you say and do.LynnHow about yourself, the Us....when you plug your oil wells, the price goes up.

[Guest guest]

you said:

I tire of the constant, "it's the U.S.s" fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....

 

Errrrrr I believe tiz the FIRST WORLD 'per se' .... not simply the USA...... we have taken and taken and taken some more.... ever selfishly..... it is coming back at us now......

 

 

Clare

[Guest guest]

you mean like stop giving israel 15 million us a day......and now they are

demanding it in euro's........kraig

Kraig Carroll

Environmental Damage Repair

 

 

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It amuse me that they got the nerve to demand their welfare in euro.Den 06/04/2008 kl. 00.13 skrev thehavens:you mean like stop giving israel 15 million us a day......and now they are demanding it in euro's........kraigKraig CarrollEnvironmental Damage Repair ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.859 / Virus Database: 585 - Release 2/14/05

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At 05:01 PM 4/5/2008, you wrote:

whatever............still say, if we're so damn corrupt, and so damn bad,

people should keep their hands in their pockets and not ask for help or

asylum .....tell you what - why don't we start sending folks to Denmark

and see how y'all do...............

I'm fed up with the US bashing..........nothing the US, or people in the

US ever satisfies, so I'm all for quitting. Pull everyone out of

everywhere and let people fight it out amongst themselves. Stop sending

aid. Let's really take care of our own for a change...........I could

care less at this point. But, when things don't work out, don't come

crying to us.......there must be some reason why there are so many

immigrants in the US. So many illegals. Sure, it's not perfect,. but what

government is? But, it seems to look pretty good to an awful lot of

people - I don't see people streaming to Venezuela, or Cuba, or Saudia

Arabia, or...........how many countries do you want me to name?

Sometimes, Kenn, you need to just leave it alone.......

 

No government helps because they

want to help those they suppose to help, they

" " help " " because it gives them power over those they

are " " helping " "

[Guest guest]

At 05:23 PM 4/5/2008, you wrote:

Yeah, as far as poisoning the earth and so on, it is. But, there is a

constant stream of stuff about how bad and in what terrible shape the US

is in. Perhaps you haven't noticed it. Perhaps because you don't live

here. don't know.

Lynn

 

you said:

I tire of the constant, " it's the U.S.s "

fault......so bad, so corrupt, blah, blah, blah.....

 

Errrrrr I believe tiz

the FIRST WORLD 'per se' .... not simply the USA...... we have taken and

taken and taken some more.... ever selfishly..... it is coming back at us

now......

 

 

Clare