Anti-inflammatory

June 26, 2009

Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the herbs,

and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

any great ideas.

Thanks,

Ariel

Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment.

> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a more

> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned that the

> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. Unfortunately a

> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that liver qi

> moved!

>

> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at all. I

> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I think they

> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I understand

> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with her hip

> treatment.

>

> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

>

> Ariel

>

June 26, 2009

Hi Ariel,

It sounds like your patient is undergoing prolotherapy. A substance, often B12.

is injected into the affected ligaments or tendons, which

leads to local sterile inflammation. The localized inflammation triggers the

deposition of new collagen. New collagen shrinks

as it matures. The shrinking collagen tightens the ligament that was

injected and makes it stronger. For a week after the injections the patient is

not to have any anti-inflammatories.? I would not give the patient herbs and

risk interfering with the process - and it's only for the week.? I have had it

done and it is very effective.? In China, in a related way, they inject herbs or

B12 into acupuncture points - this often irritates the acupuncture point and in

effect continually stimulates it.? In NY state we are not allowed to inject but

I have directed my Vet to inject acupuncture points on my dog with B12 - better

for them than retaining needles.

I would use acupuncture to move Qi while your patient is undergoing this therapy

..

Mary Chamberlain, LAc.

Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. <ariel

Chinese Medicine

Thu, Jun 25, 2009 6:53 pm

anti-inflammatory

I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment.

I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a more

nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned that the

moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. Unfortunately a

lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that liver qi

moved!

I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at all. I

know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I think they

probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I understand

it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with her hip

treatment.

Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

Ariel

June 26, 2009

On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

> herbs,

> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

>

> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

> any great ideas.

>

> Thanks,

> Ariel

>

> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

> >

> > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

> > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

> > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

> treatment.

> > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

> > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

> > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

> more

> > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

> that the

> > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

> Unfortunately a

> > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

> liver qi

> > moved!

> >

> > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

> all. I

> > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

> think they

> > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

> understand

> > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

> > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

> > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

> her hip

> > treatment.

> >

> > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

> > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

> > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

> >

> > Ariel

> >

>

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

June 26, 2009

It would help to know what the injections are that she is getting. I'm not

aware of an orthopedic injection " used to promote the healing of a ligament "

(in that strictest sense of the phrase that you used.). (If there is, please

educate me as I like to know those things.) Certainly cortisone/prednisone

injections are often used to decrease local inflammation and swelling to

alleviate pain...and in theory healing is thereby supposed to take place.

But, I have seen too many patients after multiple cortisone injections who

have suffered tissue damage/atrophy, and several who have then had resultant

multiple surgeries to try and repair the cortisone-damaged area to no avail

and end up developing CRPS...

But I digress. If it is cortisone/prednisone that is being used, then likely

the reason for not adding additional anti-inflammatories has to do with the

fact that prednisone is in itself anti-inflammatory.

However, in my opinion, it would be difficult to know what herb-drug

interactions to research, and thereby identifying which herbs to avoid,

without knowing what drug is being used.

J

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

June 26, 2009

No worries with herbs even jiang huang, they are not strong enough to inhibit

fibroblastic activation nor the inflammatory cascade. Been doing this for 20

years with people getting injected by prolo and now PRP

June 26, 2009

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> >

> > Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

> > herbs,

> > and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

> >

> > I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

> > any great ideas.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Ariel

> >

> > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

> > >

> > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

> > > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

> > > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

> > treatment.

> > > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

> > > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

> > > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

> > more

> > > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

> > that the

> > > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

> > Unfortunately a

> > > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

> > liver qi

> > > moved!

> > >

> > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

> > all. I

> > > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

> > think they

> > > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

> > understand

> > > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

> > > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

> > > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

> > her hip

> > > treatment.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

> > > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

> > > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

> > >

> > > Ariel

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 26, 2009

Hi Joy,

I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary

explained. I think the point is to cause a local inflammatory reaction

so that the body begins the healing process in the area. She will

undergo 3 to 6 series of injections spaced over a few months.

Ariel

Joy Keller wrote:

>

> It would help to know what the injections are that she is getting. I'm not

> aware of an orthopedic injection " used to promote the healing of a

> ligament "

> (in that strictest sense of the phrase that you used.). (If there is,

> please

> educate me as I like to know those things.) Certainly cortisone/prednisone

> injections are often used to decrease local inflammation and swelling to

> alleviate pain...and in theory healing is thereby supposed to take place.

>

> But, I have seen too many patients after multiple cortisone injections who

> have suffered tissue damage/atrophy, and several who have then had

> resultant

> multiple surgeries to try and repair the cortisone-damaged area to no

> avail

> and end up developing CRPS...

>

> But I digress. If it is cortisone/prednisone that is being used, then

> likely

> the reason for not adding additional anti-inflammatories has to do

> with the

> fact that prednisone is in itself anti-inflammatory.

>

> However, in my opinion, it would be difficult to know what herb-drug

> interactions to research, and thereby identifying which herbs to avoid,

> without knowing what drug is being used.

>

> J

> ________

> Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

> Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

> Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

> www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

>

June 27, 2009

Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I

will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-)

off to the search engines I go...

J

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. <

ariel wrote:

> Hi Joy,

>

> I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary

> [post snipped]

>

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

June 27, 2009

Prolotherapy > base mixture of Procaine, Dextrose and MB12 > injected to the

bone at any injured attachment site > ligament, tendon.

Ross

-

Joy Keller

Chinese Medicine

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:54 PM

Re: anti-inflammatory

Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I

will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-)

off to the search engines I go...

J

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. <

ariel wrote:

> Hi Joy,

>

> I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary

> [post snipped]

>

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

June 27, 2009

IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful.

1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional

medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be

anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency

can easily stop a inflammatory cascade.

2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold

from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot

reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation,

from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex

beast that includes many systems of the body.

I would though like to hear what others think about this issue.

Hope this helps,

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel

Solomon, L.Ac.

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: anti-inflammatory

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> >

> > Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

> > herbs,

> > and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

> >

> > I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

> > any great ideas.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Ariel

> >

> > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

> > >

> > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

> > > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

> > > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

> > treatment.

> > > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

> > > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

> > > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

> > more

> > > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

> > that the

> > > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

> > Unfortunately a

> > > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

> > liver qi

> > > moved!

> > >

> > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

> > all. I

> > > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

> > think they

> > > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

> > understand

> > > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

> > > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

> > > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

> > her hip

> > > treatment.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

> > > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

> > > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

> > >

> > > Ariel

> > >

> >

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 27, 2009

Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600

RE: anti-inflammatory

IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful.

1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional

medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be

anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency

can easily stop a inflammatory cascade.

2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold

from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot

reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation,

from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex

beast that includes many systems of the body.

I would though like to hear what others think about this issue.

Hope this helps,

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel

Solomon, L.Ac.

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: anti-inflammatory

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

>>

>> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

>> herbs,

>> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

>>

>> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

>> any great ideas.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Ariel

>>

>> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>>>

>>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

>>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

>>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

>> treatment.

>>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

>>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

>>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

>> more

>>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

>> that the

>>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

>> Unfortunately a

>>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

>> liver qi

>>> moved!

>>>

>>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

>> all. I

>>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

>> think they

>>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

>> understand

>>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

>>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

>>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

>> her hip

>>> treatment.

>>>

>>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

>>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

>>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

>>>

>>> Ariel

>>>

>>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 28, 2009

Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be anti-inflammatory

if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many

types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are

your thoughts?

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: anti-inflammatory

Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600

RE: anti-inflammatory

IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful.

1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional

medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be

anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency

can easily stop a inflammatory cascade.

2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold

from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot

reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation,

from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex

beast that includes many systems of the body.

I would though like to hear what others think about this issue.

Hope this helps,

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel

Solomon, L.Ac.

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: anti-inflammatory

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

>>

>> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

>> herbs,

>> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

>>

>> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

>> any great ideas.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Ariel

>>

>> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>>>

>>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

>>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

>>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

>> treatment.

>>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

>>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

>>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

>> more

>>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

>> that the

>>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

>> Unfortunately a

>>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

>> liver qi

>>> moved!

>>>

>>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

>> all. I

>>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

>> think they

>>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

>> understand

>>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

>>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

>>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

>> her hip

>>> treatment.

>>>

>>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

>>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

>>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

>>>

>>> Ariel

>>>

>>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 28, 2009

I have yet to hear anyone say maybe let's wait during this period of time and

let the patient have some relief over a difficult decision. Maybe this wait and

the emotional relief is what is best.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:42:42 -0600

RE: anti-inflammatory

Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be

anti-inflammatory

if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many

types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are

your thoughts?

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: anti-inflammatory

Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600

RE: anti-inflammatory

IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful.

1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional

medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be

anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency

can easily stop a inflammatory cascade.

2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold

from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot

reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation,

from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex

beast that includes many systems of the body.

I would though like to hear what others think about this issue.

Hope this helps,

-

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel

Solomon, L.Ac.

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: anti-inflammatory

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

>>

>> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

>> herbs,

>> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

>>

>> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

>> any great ideas.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Ariel

>>

>> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>>>

>>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

>>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

>>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

>> treatment.

>>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

>>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

>>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

>> more

>>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

>> that the

>>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

>> Unfortunately a

>>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

>> liver qi

>>> moved!

>>>

>>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

>> all. I

>>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

>> think they

>>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

>> understand

>>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

>>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

>>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

>> her hip

>>> treatment.

>>>

>>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

>>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

>>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

>>>

>>> Ariel

>>>

>>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 28, 2009

Dear Gentlepeople and scholars,

I think that when we are trying to determining whether an herb, procedure has

anti-inflammatory properties we need to remember inflammation is a Western

biomedical diagnostic term, and just as with other Western diagnostic

conditions, needs to fulfill certain criteria to be considered within its

definition. Western medical diagnosis defines inflammation as the presence of

4 criteria: pain, redness, swelling and heat. Period. So if you want to

determine if a certain herb, formula or therapy such as acupuncture is

anti-inflammatory, you need to see if it resolves these 4 symptoms. But be

careful: IMO this question should only be asked for the edification of an

inquisitive patient or a Western doctor. Why else should we bother? We have

our own terminology and patterns!

--- On Sat, 6/27/09, wrote:

RE: anti-inflammatory

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, June 27, 2009, 4:42 PM

Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be anti-inflammatory

if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many

types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are

your thoughts?

-

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mike

Bowser

Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM

traditional_ chinese_medicine

RE: anti-inflammatory

Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

@chinesemed icinedoc. com

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600

RE: anti-inflammatory

IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful.

1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional

medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be

anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency

can easily stop a inflammatory cascade.

2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold

from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot

reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation,

from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex

beast that includes many systems of the body.

I would though like to hear what others think about this issue.

Hope this helps,

-

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Ariel

Solomon, L.Ac.

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

Re: anti-inflammatory

My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese

herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and

yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western

properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to

cortisone according to a few websites.

I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it

was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties

since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat

clearing herbs would have such properties.

I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a

Western context- not always so easy!

I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture

to try and get back to where we were.

.. wrote:

>

> On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are

> anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . .

>

> On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

>>

>> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the

>> herbs,

>> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory!

>>

>> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has

>> any great ideas.

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Ariel

>>

>> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>>>

>>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

>>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

>>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this

>> treatment.

>>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like

>>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish

>>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a

>> more

>>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned

>> that the

>>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties.

>> Unfortunately a

>>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that

>> liver qi

>>> moved!

>>>

>>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at

>> all. I

>>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I

>> think they

>>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I

>> understand

>>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think

>>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to

>>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with

>> her hip

>>> treatment.

>>>

>>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory

>>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan

>>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...?

>>>

>>> Ariel

>>>

>>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

June 28, 2009

We were taught prolotherapy by a MD and there are many injectable substances

that can be used. true the stock option is the dextrose,B12,procaine and those

substances without peservative in the bottles, but a more therapies with other

injectables were taught. I had not heard of the saline but sure. The teacher

taught different levels of repair, rates of healing dependent on the injections

used.

Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology

Chinese Medicine

courtenayhealing

Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:16:24 -0700

Re: anti-inflammatory

Prolotherapy > base mixture of Procaine, Dextrose and MB12 > injected to the

bone at any injured attachment site > ligament, tendon.

Ross

-

Joy Keller

Chinese Medicine

Friday, June 26, 2009 4:54 PM

Re: anti-inflammatory

Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I

will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-)

off to the search engines I go...

J

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. <

ariel wrote:

> Hi Joy,

>

> I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary

> [post snipped]

>

________

Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM

Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic

Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019

www.RamonaAcupuncture.com

June 28, 2009

Chinese Medicine , " Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. "

<ariel wrote:

>

> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to

> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take

> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment.

I wonder if the fact that this patient cannot take anything anti-inflammatory is

related to the anti-inflammatory properties of the drug(s) or if that is related

to the side effects of this class of drugs, in particular the anti-thrombotic

effects. An hemorrhage would certainly interfere negatively with the procedure,

while I cannot imagine any negative influence of an anti-inflammatory effect.

Maybe further information on this from the doctor caring for this patient wouyld

be helpful.

Just my thoughts.

Giovanna Franconi, MD

June 28, 2009

Jason

I have been using herbs w prolo therapy for 20 years. They do not affect outcome

do not reduce the swelling or the duration of soreness. Unlike nsaids which stop

it cold. I have seen this in hundreds of patients. This is not some animal

studies this is real life. None of the slandered herbs we use in daily practice

are strong enough to suppress the inflammatory cascade resulting from prolo.

That is also true for fish oil.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

June 28, 2009

there are many solutions used in prolotherapy, P2G mixture of phenol,

dextrose and glycerine, morrhuate, pumice, Magsul, and more

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

June 28, 2009

Hi Giovanna,

It is not that the anti-inflamatory property of the drugs is negative - it is

related to how the protocol works.? As I understand it Prolotherapy sets up a

sterile inflammatory response and you don't want to stop or inhibit that

response.?

There are many websites that discuss how this works? - I think that you would

find them helpful.