intention

[Guest guest]

" Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place

and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The

practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered,

his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted

by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind,

and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The

Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition),

translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong.

 

 

On Jun 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, wrote:

 

> There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five,

> book five, on " Consummate Needling " .

>

>>>> Zev, did you refer to intention? if yes i am not sure you see

>>>> consummate needling as a good example

>>>>

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the replys

Brian

 

<zrosenbe wrote:

" Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place

and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The

practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered,

his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted

by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind,

and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The

Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition),

translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong.

 

 

On Jun 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, wrote:

 

> There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five,

> book five, on " Consummate Needling " .

>

>>>> Zev, did you refer to intention? if yes i am not sure you see

>>>> consummate needling as a good example

>>>>

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

consummate needling

>>>

Zev, i thought consummate needling was mainly a discussion based on comparing

the radial and carotid pulses. Is my memory incorrect?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place

and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The

practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered,

his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted

by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind,

and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The

Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition),

translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong.

>>>>>>>>>

Book of Difficult issues also states: The practitioner, after harnessing his

spirit, must look up to the patient's eyes and harness the patient's spirit. In

this way the Qi can move easily.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As you know, each chapter of this text may cover several topics. The

quote comes from that chapter.

 

 

On Jun 2, 2005, at 3:38 PM, wrote:

 

> consummate needling

>

>>>>

>>>>

> Zev, i thought consummate needling was mainly a discussion based on

> comparing the radial and carotid pulses. Is my memory incorrect?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Which issue? Beautiful quotation

>>>Cant remember

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

I find intention in literture is rarely found within the Acupuncture

texts, but more so, found in the philosphical and theortical texts

of Daoism, Buddhism, and so on.

 

Takuan Soho, in " the unfettered mind " , when talking about

where to put ones mind in the art of iai-do, says:

 

" if one puts his mind in the action of his opponents body, his

mind will be taken by the action of his opponents body,

if he puts his mind in his opponents sword, his mind will be

taken by that sword...

....if he puts his mind in his own sword, his mind will be taken by

his own sword... "

 

What this means is that there is no place to put ones mind, in

Zen Buddhism, this is called No - Mind, and is very important in

applying oneself in everything that they do. It is the same in

Acupuncture, if one puts thier mind in thier needle, then they will

be taken by that needle, and thier desired goal will manifest.

 

Daoism takes a different stance and combines the following with

my previous post,

 

" If you are able to control desire, then the mind will be still. Clear

the mind and the spirit will be pure... "

 

Desire and " want " is what will defer ones mind from the way,

which should be a physicians and martial artists ultimate goal,

keeping that in mind, i.e. No-Mind, at all times allows ones

intention to treat and compassionately heal, to manifest without

interuption. This is the core of intention. It is like pulling a bow,

with the right mindset one will always hit thier desired target.

 

David White

Clinical Director / Practitioner

Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture &

[Guest guest]

Hello everybody,

 

Intention or 'yi nian' is a central concept in qi-based medicine,

including acupuncture. The

process of using the mind-intent to guide qi is exactly what

intention means when it's

referred to in this context.

 

Yi nian has its roots in Daoist philosophy, which unfortunately has

become unacceptable

in China in recent years as has the overt practice of Qi Gong, e.g.

persecution of the Falun

Gong, who have ridiculously been likened to some sort of 'religious

sect' by the paranoid

Chinese state.

 

It is sad something as important and fundamental as intention has

come to be viewed with

scepticism because it isn't scientific, 'evidence-based' and so

doesn't fit into any 'boxes'.

It is hard to use intention properly and there no short cuts. Yes,

practitioners can open

themselves up to 'evil qi', but cultivating their own qi through

practices such as Qi Gong

and Tai Qi is a way to prevent this. This is a lifelong process

that does not happen after

one weekend course, but takes years of practice.

 

Daoism has a particular relevance in today's age where the world

seems to be losing its

way. It is about time we started getting back to basics and reading

some Daoist texts. TCM

as a system is not back to basics, but more like a synopsis of the

patchwork quilt of 3,000

years of Chinese medical experience and observation. If you want to

really be able to

practise powerfully, 'yi nian' is key, as is reading the classics

like the Ling Shu, Su Wen etc.

 

For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

article in the JCM,

'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

(Journal of Chinese

Medicine January 1992).

 

Scott Bridges

Qi-Gong Tui-Na practitioner

London

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " andy "

<@s...> wrote:

> hi all

>

> the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used

> since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely

> subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the

> best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to

tonify but

> to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to

> justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself

> i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture.

>

> what do others feel??

>

> Andy

>

> (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing)

[Guest guest]

An aspect of intent.

 

One always presumes one's mind is more collected and disciplined than the

patient's. Can this always be true?

 

Or that the patients internal structure has unraveled and he or she is

in a state of spiritual

and mental disengagement just because he or she has a migraine or a sore

throat?

 

What if a healer comes with a scrambled mind, with half resolved issues

of his or her own,

variously afraid, or stressed out, or angered, or in rage, or with some

inherent phobia as

yet unrecognized, and brings a fractured and unharmonious 'intent' to

bear on the patient?

 

Much worse. All this might be happening and the healer is not aware of

it all?

 

Much much worse. All this might be happening and the healer is aware of

it and does this

anyway?

 

I would imagines a properly clinical manner would be sufficient in all

cases. One is presentable,

knowledgeable, understands the responsibility of an immediate nature to

heal a condition, and

the belated, to make sure the patient is provided a safe place to heal

in while at the clinic.

 

Holmes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Musing.

 

If I sat before a patient whom I have diagnosed well as having a

migraine and am treating

with the right needles placed correctly to the ultimate degree, while

taking up a properly

correct clinical bedside manner with due responsibility.

 

Meanwhile I am intending the person to not heal.

 

Will the migraine not go away?

 

Holmes.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago,

and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that

time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine

in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe.

 

 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

 

> For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

> article in the JCM,

> 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

> (Journal of Chinese

> Medicine January 1992).

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people

think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an

entity?

 

Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering

the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance?

 

Just wondering where people were coming from.

Best wishes,

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: intention

 

 

I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago,

and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that

time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine

in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe.

 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

 

> For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

> article in the JCM,

> 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

> (Journal of Chinese

> Medicine January 1992).

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

It is said, I think, in Nei Jing, that " qi follows shen " . This

thread has been tackled on other lists. I don't think it serves us

to start separating the " parts " of ourselves from each other--shen,

mind, self, hun, po, etc.--even qi. Perhaps the " fish out of water "

concept applies here. Both water and fish (yin and yang) are dead

without each other (separated).

Intent, to me, is the intelligence behind the action. Nice words

said with two opposing intents could either encourage or discourage

a person. Mean words said with opposing intents could also encourage

or discourage. In both cases intent is a contributing factor.

However, the optimum case is nice words (right treatment), good

intent (proper intent/stimulation/performance/bedside manner). Best

outcome.

Have I oversimplified?

 

Respecfully, Shanna

 

Chinese Medicine ,

wrote:

> Hi everyone,

> I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do

people

> think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then

an

> entity?

>

> Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once

conquering

> the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this

instance?

>

> Just wondering where people were coming from.

> Best wishes,

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of

Z'ev

> Rosenberg

> Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Re: intention

>

>

> I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years

ago,

> and has changed his views substantially on these issues since

that

> time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

> Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese

medicine

> in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to

believe.

>

>

> On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

>

> > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob

Flaws's

> > article in the JCM,

> > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the

West'

> > (Journal of Chinese

> > Medicine January 1992).

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

 

Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism.

I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of many

generations before our time.

 

Mike L.

Sharon <> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people

think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an

entity?

 

Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering

the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance?

 

Just wondering where people were coming from.

Best wishes,

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: intention

 

 

I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago,

and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that

time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine

in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe.

 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

 

> For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

> article in the JCM,

> 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

> (Journal of Chinese

> Medicine January 1992).

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

All,

 

Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a

therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of

scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However,

maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the

underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a

disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a

mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your

patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM.

 

Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer

the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it

were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then

we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once

posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am

i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up

with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is

" don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps

towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching,

and possibly even conquering ones mind.

 

From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of

intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the

philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can

come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in

general.

 

Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in

the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing,

practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring

harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just

microcosmic projection of the macrocosm.

 

David White

Clinical Director / Practitioner

Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture &

Founder SydneyTCM

[Guest guest]

Ahh Mike,

Perhaps then is it in contemplating the question that one grows?

Best wishes,

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Saturday, 4 June 2005 11:10 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: intention

 

 

Sharon,

 

Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism.

I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of

many generations before our time.

 

Mike L.

Sharon <> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people

think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an

entity?

 

Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering

the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this

instance?

 

Just wondering where people were coming from.

Best wishes,

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: intention

 

 

I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago,

and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that

time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine

in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe.

 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

 

> For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

> article in the JCM,

> 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

> (Journal of Chinese

> Medicine January 1992).

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello David,

I like your analysis that intent is coming from these different places; the

scientific approach, the mental approach and the philosophical approach.

 

I can relate to this in my own shifts in intent.

 

I wonder if my observation of driving is your No-mind situation. Here I

regularly drive long distances on highways in non-peak hour traffic, and I

find that I look at no-thing. That is my attention is available to all

things, but my focus is on no-single-thing or nothing, until a thing calls

for it.

 

I notice in my non-insertion needling I look up and out the window, not so

much at the view, but into the distance perhaps this too is a kind of

no-thing focus until I find my something focus.

 

Best wishes,

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of sydneytcm

Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:32 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Intention

 

 

 

All,

 

Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a

therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of

scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However,

maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the

underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a

disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a

mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your

patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM.

 

Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer

the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it

were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then

we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once

posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am

i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up

with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is

" don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps

towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching,

and possibly even conquering ones mind.

 

From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of

intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the

philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can

come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in

general.

 

Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in

the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing,

practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring

harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just

microcosmic projection of the macrocosm.

 

David White

Clinical Director / Practitioner

Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture &

Founder SydneyTCM

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

 

 

----------

--

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

 

You are absolutely right. Zen Buddhism masters often challenge the followers

with these sort of questions, one question at a time, often for many days or

months.

However, be careful, the kind of " growth " in your understanding might not be the

same kind of " growth " Zen practitioners experience. What can be said to be

similar is the process. Yes, the process of contemplating the question is

valuable.

OK. I should stop right here, lest we should branch off too much from TCM.

 

Mike L.

 

Sharon <> wrote:

Ahh Mike,

Perhaps then is it in contemplating the question that one grows?

Best wishes,

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Mike Liaw

Saturday, 4 June 2005 11:10 AM

Chinese Medicine

RE: Re: intention

 

 

Sharon,

 

Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism.

I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of

many generations before our time.

 

Mike L.

Sharon <> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people

think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an

entity?

 

Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering

the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this

instance?

 

Just wondering where people were coming from.

Best wishes,

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: intention

 

 

I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago,

and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that

time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of

Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine

in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe.

 

On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote:

 

> For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's

> article in the JCM,

> 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West'

> (Journal of Chinese

> Medicine January 1992).

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very well said David! Thank you for writing this up!

 

What I might add is, " No-Mind " must be accompanied by " Full Awareness. "

Otherwise, this " No-Mind " situation can be easily misused and/or abused.

 

Another point is, if we were to continue on with this stream of thoughts, the

ultimate achievement is without the concept of " success in the war against

disease " because one cannot achieve harmony with even a trace of this concept.

Utimately, there will be no healer, no heal'ee, and nothing to be healed or

fought against.

 

Mike L.

 

sydneytcm <sydneytcm wrote:

 

All,

 

Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a

therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of

scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However,

maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the

underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a

disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a

mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your

patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM.

 

Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer

the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it

were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then

we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once

posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am

i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up

with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is

" don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps

towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching,

and possibly even conquering ones mind.

 

From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of

intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the

philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can

come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in

general.

 

Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in

the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing,

practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring

harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just

microcosmic projection of the macrocosm.

 

David White

Clinical Director / Practitioner

Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture &

Founder SydneyTCM

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on

this link

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I thought the group might enjoy this story from Hua -Ching Ni's translation of

the works of Chuang Tzu as it relates to the subject of intention: - Matt Bauer

 

 

Chapter 28

 

 

 

HARMONY WITH ALL LIVES AND AGREEMENT IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE

 

 

 

The cook of the feudal lord Liang was cutting up an ox. Every shift of his

hand, every move of his shoulders, every step of his foot, every thrust of his

knife, every tear and cut of his work and every sound made by his blade was in

perfect harmony: rhythmical, like the famous dance of the Mulberry Grove;

synchronous, like the chords of a beautiful melody of great music.

 

 

 

" Excellent " Cried Liang. " The skill you apply to your trade is

extraordinary. "

 

 

 

" Your majesty, " replied the cook, " I have devoted myself to learning the

Integral Truth of life. It is the root of all skills. Many years ago, when I

first began to cut oxen, I saw them as whole animals before me. But after only a

number of years of practice, I no longer saw an animal as one piece; I saw it

already divided into sections.

 

 

 

" Now I work with my intuition rather than my eyes; perception and

understanding have come to an end. And my spirit moves freely. I rely upon

principals. I follow the natural constitution of an animal, guiding my knife

through the openings and hollows, following along with the way things are. I

never cut into even the smallest tendon, much less a joint.

 

 

 

 

 

A good cook must change his knife once a year, because he cuts with it. An

ordinary cook must buy a new one about once a month, because he chops with it.

It's been nineteen years that I have had this knife; although I have cut up many

thousand oxen with it; its edge is as good as the day it left the grindstone.

You see, at the joints of the animal there are always small spaces and since the

edge of the knife is without thickness, I have only to insert that which is

without thickness into a space. If you insert what has no thickness into a

space, then there's plenty of room for the blade to move in. In this way I have

kept my knife fresh for nineteen years.

 

 

 

" But when I come upon a complicated place, I am extremely cautious. I fix

my gaze upon it, steady my hand and gently apply the blade, moving it with great

subtlety until the part yields and falls to the ground. Then I remove my knife,

stand up and pause. Carefully I clean it and put it away. "

 

 

 

" Magnificent, " cried the prince. " From the words of this cook I have

learned the secret of how to care for life by living with the Integral Way. "

 

 

X

X

X

X

 

 

 

 

-

sydneytcm

Chinese Medicine

Friday, June 03, 2005 6:19 AM

Re: Intention

 

 

o translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page,

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was about

validity

of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and reduction are

flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi in, or take Qi

out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be added. And

magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by temporary

change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a vaguely

defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that

acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a Vital Force

called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted?

 

Acupuncture is an empirical science, the result of centuries of a lot of poke

and hope (complementing awareness and astute observation). Insisting on

Vitalism instantly compels most Christians and people who think they are

modern to doubt and fear. Churches teach them to not believe in or trust

anyone claiming they can put good Qi in, or take bad Qi out, because it

sounds either satanic or at least un-scientific.

 

To the contrary, we KNOW what happens. There is either sensory or motor

input, and a cascade of physiologic and functional reaction.

 

In discussing relative status we refer to the _collective (or aggregate)

movement _ as the flow of Qi. We call physical impediments to that flow (or to

cognitive awareness of that flow) the blockage of Qi. Optimal treatment

adjusts relative distribution. Herbal tonification either directly supplements

or

facilitates nutrition, but Qi is still only meaningful in terms of process.

 

The skin is a sense organ, and there are various other receptors in deeper

tissue. The most direct explanation of acupuncture is simply, that slight yet

specific stimulation provokes different response, depending on where the

stimulated points are, and the degree of stimulus, slight or strong.

 

We know that we get better results when the stimulus also provokes greater or

more attuned AWARENESS in the patient. To many, _intent _ seems to

involve positive / good thoughts (as opposed to negative / bad / harmful).

Well-intentioned healers naturally desire and wish that their patients get well.

The problem is that this goes to a judgmental notion of _shoulds _. I see a

great deal of medicine as being inappropriately imposed on patients who

have been trained to distrust their own self-healing mechanisms. Alternative

practitioners sometimes try to make up for the knife and drug by force of will.

 

The numerous techniques of pre-composed guided imagery are gymnastic

training that may happen (incidentally) to be therapeutic. When I refer to

mental visualization, the essential component for me is listening in stillness.

Whether touching or merely in their presence, I will try to synchronize my

breathing with theirs. I will watch with peripheral vision, but not analyze

that

information – it just alerts me to a heightened attunement.

 

My intent follows my knowledge base, the results of interview, and

examination. It is not energy work up to that point, and to that point I try

not to

project anything. IF I feel I have reached an effortless attention where I can

sense what is now and what might be, only then I might go with the muse of

the moment. The best analogy of that state is similar to shooting a basketball

when you know it is going in the instant you release, and you merely follow it

through. There are no _shoulds _, only suggestion of new possibility that

already feels like you know it is about to happen. When I manage to do that,

my focus of intent seems to enable their heightened awareness, and change

ensues, not by force of will, but because it was gently encouraged and agreed

upon without words.

 

Just for fun, try placing the vantage point of mind behind ren6.

We are more than our differences, and more than our techniques.

Joe Reid June 3, 2005

http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

I've enjoyed reading the responses to this thread, and thought I'd put

in an addition from western medicine that I think might be pertinent to

this discussion.

 

Many western nurses are taught Therapeutic Touch, which is based on the

idea that touching the patient in a way that transmits caring helps with

the patients' recovery. This seems a valid corroboration of the idea of

intent, but without the eastern ideas of Qi, yi, shen, jing, etc. There

were some studies of therapeutic touch conducted in the 70's and 80's,

and my remembrance is that the studies had positive results for the

technique.

 

The bottom line is that patients respond to a competent, confident and

caring practitioner, no matter what medicine they practice.

Practitioners who care practice intent.

 

Steve E.

 

jreidomd wrote:

 

>Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was about

validity

>of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and reduction are

>flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi in, or take Qi

>out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be added. And

>magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by temporary

>change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a vaguely

>defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that

>acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a Vital Force

>called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted?

>

>Acupuncture is an empirical science, the result of centuries of a lot of poke

>and hope (complementing awareness and astute observation). Insisting on

>Vitalism instantly compels most Christians and people who think they are

>modern to doubt and fear. Churches teach them to not believe in or trust

>anyone claiming they can put good Qi in, or take bad Qi out, because it

>sounds either satanic or at least un-scientific.

>

>To the contrary, we KNOW what happens. There is either sensory or motor

>input, and a cascade of physiologic and functional reaction.

>

>In discussing relative status we refer to the _collective (or aggregate)

>movement _ as the flow of Qi. We call physical impediments to that flow (or to

>cognitive awareness of that flow) the blockage of Qi. Optimal treatment

>adjusts relative distribution. Herbal tonification either directly supplements

or

>facilitates nutrition, but Qi is still only meaningful in terms of process.

>

>The skin is a sense organ, and there are various other receptors in deeper

>tissue. The most direct explanation of acupuncture is simply, that slight yet

>specific stimulation provokes different response, depending on where the

>stimulated points are, and the degree of stimulus, slight or strong.

>

>We know that we get better results when the stimulus also provokes greater or

>more attuned AWARENESS in the patient. To many, _intent _ seems to

>involve positive / good thoughts (as opposed to negative / bad / harmful).

>Well-intentioned healers naturally desire and wish that their patients get

well.

>The problem is that this goes to a judgmental notion of _shoulds _. I see a

>great deal of medicine as being inappropriately imposed on patients who

>have been trained to distrust their own self-healing mechanisms. Alternative

>practitioners sometimes try to make up for the knife and drug by force of will.

>

>The numerous techniques of pre-composed guided imagery are gymnastic

>training that may happen (incidentally) to be therapeutic. When I refer to

>mental visualization, the essential component for me is listening in stillness.

>Whether touching or merely in their presence, I will try to synchronize my

>breathing with theirs. I will watch with peripheral vision, but not analyze

that

>information – it just alerts me to a heightened attunement.

>

>My intent follows my knowledge base, the results of interview, and

>examination. It is not energy work up to that point, and to that point I try

not to

>project anything. IF I feel I have reached an effortless attention where I can

>sense what is now and what might be, only then I might go with the muse of

>the moment. The best analogy of that state is similar to shooting a basketball

>when you know it is going in the instant you release, and you merely follow it

>through. There are no _shoulds _, only suggestion of new possibility that

>already feels like you know it is about to happen. When I manage to do that,

>my focus of intent seems to enable their heightened awareness, and change

>ensues, not by force of will, but because it was gently encouraged and agreed

>upon without words.

>

>Just for fun, try placing the vantage point of mind behind ren6.

>We are more than our differences, and more than our techniques.

>Joe Reid June 3, 2005

>http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

and adjust

accordingly.

>

>

>

>If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

>

[Guest guest]

" The bottom line is that patients respond to a competent, confident and

caring practitioner, no matter what medicine they practice.

Practitioners who care practice intent. "

 

Yes Steve, I agree. However, I believe that intent is a certain kind of

caring that is focused, developed and made manifest in the world. I may

care about the plight of the poor and starving in the slums of Calcutta,

but Mother Theresa practiced intent because she manifested her caring in

the world. Perhaps intent is caring brought to focus and acted upon.

 

I suspect most of us have experienced being with someone and just

feeling totally connected and comfortable with them. We have felt safe,

cared for and even loved. Sometimes these feelings occur within

minutes. I suggest that this is intent in action. By what-ever complex

subtle ques or gestures we trust and feel safe. I suspect most of us

have also experienced the touch of someone who we felt was not right,

uncomfortable, unwelcoming. Could this be from their intent, however

subconscious it might have been?

 

I had a massage once from a therapist who was just awesome. I was just

putty in their hands after about 2 minutes. I have also had massage

from therapists that it just felt like nobody was home and even though

they seemed to do everything " right " it just didn't feel as good. I

explain the difference as intent.

 

It doesn't have to be something mystical or unscientific. It is likely

a very complex social / biological phenomenon with subtleties that go

unnoticed to the conscious mind. It may even be Quantum mechanical in

nature with transfers of super subtle energies, I don't know. I do know

that it is very real and very powerful in healing regardless of how we

try and be so " scientific " and " objective " about it.

 

Excellent discussion, thanks everyone.

 

Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht.

Oasis Acupuncture

http://www.oasisacupuncture.com

8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte

Suite D-35

Scottsdale, AZ 85258

Phone: (480) 991-3650

Fax: (480) 247-4472

[Guest guest]

I don't know your source here, but my understanding of supplmentation/

bu3 and drainage/xie4 is that it has to do with the manipulation of

qi within the body, not adding or subtracting from the outside.. Qi

is not an energy, and it is not vaguely defined. Within the context

of Chinese medicine, qi can be clearly understood as an informational

entity based in the understanding of form, function, and

relationships of parts to each other and the whole, not the physical

'stuff' of the body.

 

 

 

 

On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:29 AM, jreidomd wrote:

 

> Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was

> about validity

> of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and

> reduction are

> flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi

> in, or take Qi

> out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be

> added. And

> magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by

> temporary

> change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a

> vaguely

> defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that

> acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a

> Vital Force

> called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Zev,

Could you write more about qi within the context of .

What do you think about Unschuld's translation of the character as

" vapour from food " for example? Do any of the other scholars on this

list have other interpretations or ideas.

Regards Ray Ford

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Monday, 6 June 2005 5:18 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Intention

 

I don't know your source here, but my understanding of supplmentation/

bu3 and drainage/xie4 is that it has to do with the manipulation of

qi within the body, not adding or subtracting from the outside.. Qi

is not an energy, and it is not vaguely defined. Within the context

of Chinese medicine, qi can be clearly understood as an informational

entity based in the understanding of form, function, and

relationships of parts to each other and the whole, not the physical

'stuff' of the body.

 

 

 

 

On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:29 AM, jreidomd wrote:

 

> Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was

> about validity

> of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and

> reduction are

> flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi

> in, or take Qi

> out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be

> added. And

> magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by

> temporary

> change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a

> vaguely

> defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that

> acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a

> Vital Force

> called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted?