Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 hi all the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to tonify but to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. what do others feel?? Andy (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 Andy, I understand that intention appears to take acupuncture into the realms of the mystical. I also understand how this would undermine acupunture for some people - particularly the conventional medical establishment. However, I also believe that it is within correct understanding and use of intention that the true power of acupuncture and is held. There are many things that science cannot explain - yet. The full affect of the mind on the body is one of them - this includes the intention of both the practitioner and the patient.. Dermot - " andy " < <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, May 31, 2005 12:15 PM intention > hi all > > the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used > since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely > subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the > best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to tonify but > to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to > justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself > i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. > > what do others feel?? > > Andy > > (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing) > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 I couldn't disagree with you more. Yi/intention is a central concept of the practice of acupuncture. While this concept can easily be abused by those without adequate insight or rigorous study, it is central in all Chinese acupuncture classics from the Nei Jing to the Zhen jiu da cheng. It has been discussed in historical works by such scholars as Nathan Sivin as well. You can read more about this in an article by Volker Scheid, " Medicine is Signification " , available at http://www.siom.com On May 31, 2005, at 4:15 AM, andy wrote: > hi all > > the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used > since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely > subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the > best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to > tonify but > to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to > justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself > i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. > > what do others feel?? > > Andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 Hi Andy, I personally believe that intention is the most powerful aspect of acupuncture. I asked Jeffery Yuen once at a seminar the place of intention in acupuncture. He said that it is the single most important part of acupuncture. It is the definition of intention that causes problems for many people. Intention in the way I am talking about is a lot more than just hoping or wishing that the patient gets better. Intention is something that requires cultivation and focused concentration typically requiring a lifetime of study and discipline to excel at. The classics say that " Blood follows Qi and Qi follows Shen " . Our intent (Shen) can move Qi, ours and our patients. Masters can move Qi and balance patients just by being in the same room. I believe that it is possible for each of us to achieve such mastery as well. Acupuncture is way more than " just sticking needles in someone " . The validity of acupuncture is based upon results. When a patient has their symptoms greatly reduced or completely eliminated in a single treatment and feels centered, content and grounded at the same time, the treatment was validated. I don't need research papers or other peoples experience to validate that treatment. I know from my own experience, that my focused intent is the greatest determining factor on the success of a treatment. When I am focused, flowing and moving from a place of clear intent, it is like the rest of the universe conspires to make the treatment work and I just need to get out of the way and let it happen. When I am in my head, unfocused and my intent is chatting ceaselessly with my ego about things not here and now, the treatments rarely turn out so well. Intent is perhaps the hardest thing to teach about this medicine. So much of what we learn is just textbook intellectual memorization stuff. Intent is all about us and clearing out our own stuff. In this culture especially, intent is dismissed or marginalized since it can't be put under a microscope and studied. It is that unseen power however that moves the treatment from " just sticking needles in someone " to medicine at the highest level in my opinion. People sense it and feel it and typically can't quite put their finger on why, but it is there, they feel better, they feel listened too, they feel more in touch with their original nature. I'd be very interested in hearing the opinions of others on this forum as this as well. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of andy Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:16 AM Chinese Medicine intention hi all the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to tonify but to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. what do others feel?? Andy (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing) http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. _____ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 some good points made in those replys, but, all of you evaded an clear definiton, what is your interpretation ?... its not enough to say " intention is very important " .... statements like " Masters can move Qi and balance patients just by being in the same room " , i'm afraid is way off the scale for me, it makes us sound.....like flakey tree huggers.. and much of the the supportive language is just anecdote....one persons untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... to me, intention is conveyed, experienced and felt in the therapeutic relationshipboth verbally and nonverbally. It is in the interactive dynamic, it says, i intend to treat you to the best of my ability, i will be mentally (and physically) present during your treatment and to answer and sooth any anxieties. this space is yours and i will use it to affect the best outcome for you that i can. it is not... ' Opening the ren is too strong for this person, i intend to use Lu7 in its role of releasing the exterior, and not to open the ren'..... ....for me it is " just sticking the needles in " accompanied by the definiton above that is acupuncture. and i've been TCM trained. what i think happens is that people confuse the 2 main definitions of intention, the one mentioned above, a variation of the well documented hawthorn effect, and 'the mysticism " , the... " there MUST be more to this than the needles " ... there isnt. if someone would like to point me to some valid research comparing the use of 'intent' to affect a treatment outcome WITH BOTH trial arms experiencing an active and 'well intentioned' therapeutic relationship as described above then i will happy read it.. regards andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 Hi Andy, You have raised a great questions and are getting cultivated answers. I thought to add a couple of really basic things. 1. The intent of the practitioner reflects his or her development. Not to say that there is right or wrong intent in itself, just a reflection of how the practitioner sees his or her practice at that point in time. 2. 'If you don't know where you are going any road will take you there " , is an old adage that says to me without intent you could end up anywhere. There was an odd experiment somewhere about organisms in petrii dishes, in an incubator. Something like each dish was taken out and some looked at by a person, or looked at longer, and those were the ones that grew the most. Maybe that is exemplifies some form of intent. Perhaps an inner attention. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Wednesday, 1 June 2005 5:56 AM Chinese Medicine RE: intention Hi Andy, I personally believe that intention is the most powerful aspect of acupuncture. I asked Jeffery Yuen once at a seminar the place of intention in acupuncture. He said that it is the single most important part of acupuncture. It is the definition of intention that causes problems for many people. Intention in the way I am talking about is a lot more than just hoping or wishing that the patient gets better. Intention is something that requires cultivation and focused concentration typically requiring a lifetime of study and discipline to excel at. The classics say that " Blood follows Qi and Qi follows Shen " . Our intent (Shen) can move Qi, ours and our patients. Masters can move Qi and balance patients just by being in the same room. I believe that it is possible for each of us to achieve such mastery as well. Acupuncture is way more than " just sticking needles in someone " . The validity of acupuncture is based upon results. When a patient has their symptoms greatly reduced or completely eliminated in a single treatment and feels centered, content and grounded at the same time, the treatment was validated. I don't need research papers or other peoples experience to validate that treatment. I know from my own experience, that my focused intent is the greatest determining factor on the success of a treatment. When I am focused, flowing and moving from a place of clear intent, it is like the rest of the universe conspires to make the treatment work and I just need to get out of the way and let it happen. When I am in my head, unfocused and my intent is chatting ceaselessly with my ego about things not here and now, the treatments rarely turn out so well. Intent is perhaps the hardest thing to teach about this medicine. So much of what we learn is just textbook intellectual memorization stuff. Intent is all about us and clearing out our own stuff. In this culture especially, intent is dismissed or marginalized since it can't be put under a microscope and studied. It is that unseen power however that moves the treatment from " just sticking needles in someone " to medicine at the highest level in my opinion. People sense it and feel it and typically can't quite put their finger on why, but it is there, they feel better, they feel listened too, they feel more in touch with their original nature. I'd be very interested in hearing the opinions of others on this forum as this as well. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of andy Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:16 AM Chinese Medicine intention hi all the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to tonify but to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. what do others feel?? Andy (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing) http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, _____ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 Not every concept in Chinese medicine has detailed research about it, Andy. I pointed you to the most extensive English language discussions on the subject, it is your choice whether you choose to read about them or not. While I agree with you that such concepts as yi/intention (signification) can be abused, to reduce the valuable classical source literature as 'anecdotal' is just the same old saw that medical researchers use to dismiss Chinese medicine outright. There are generations and thousands of volumes of case histories in Chinese, and to use the lack of modern studies on 'intention' as an excuse to dismiss it as a clinical phenomena is pointless. On May 31, 2005, at 1:53 PM, andy wrote: > > if someone would like to point me to some valid research > comparing the use of 'intent' to affect a treatment outcome WITH > BOTH trial arms experiencing an active and 'well intentioned' > therapeutic relationship as described above then i will happy > read it.. and much of the the supportive language is just anecdote....one persons untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 HI Andy, I sent my last email before reading this one of yours. Check out the Toyohari model of acupuncture. Intent is trained quite definitively as the needles are mostly not inserted. Some senior practitioners regularly treat way above the point in the air. Changes in the pulse are used as the feedback mechanism to assess the progress of treatment at the time of treatment. Some of what you have written forms my contract with my patient which I usually discuss with them. Namely that for payment you will receive from me the best of my ability, knowledge, and time at the moment of treatment. I don't see this as my intent. Perhaps more my context of treatment, yet I definitely see this as my contract for treatment. My current intent is based on my current perspective of illness. That is I use an analogy of the wave particle model of light and see that we should in health be able to move from the particle state ie individual state to being part of the wave of light state. When we cannot do this we are disconnected and are unable to heal, unable to become whole. My intent is to enable the person through treatment to reconnect to the greater whole and from such connection the healing takes place. Flaky for some no doubt which is just fine from my perspective, IMO we all treat from whatever perspective we see illness, that perspective we may be aware of consciously or we treat from unconsciously. For instance WM sees cancer as something that must be cut out and destroyed. A very strong intent based on the wm consciousness of cause and effect. Another model sees cancer as the body's attempt to get better by doing the most basic drive of reproducing self. Such an idea brings a very different treatment approach, or intention. My intent at one time was to 'fix' the person, however, I realised it was a team effort between them and myself and that I was not able to 'fix' them. No doubt for me my intent will develop over time into another perspective of illness and therefore another intent to heal will emerge Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of andy Wednesday, 1 June 2005 6:54 AM Chinese Medicine Re: intention some good points made in those replys, but, all of you evaded an clear definiton, what is your interpretation ?... its not enough to say " intention is very important " .... statements like " Masters can move Qi and balance patients just by being in the same room " , i'm afraid is way off the scale for me, it makes us sound.....like flakey tree huggers.. and much of the the supportive language is just anecdote....one persons untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... to me, intention is conveyed, experienced and felt in the therapeutic relationshipboth verbally and nonverbally. It is in the interactive dynamic, it says, i intend to treat you to the best of my ability, i will be mentally (and physically) present during your treatment and to answer and sooth any anxieties. this space is yours and i will use it to affect the best outcome for you that i can. it is not... ' Opening the ren is too strong for this person, i intend to use Lu7 in its role of releasing the exterior, and not to open the ren'..... ...for me it is " just sticking the needles in " accompanied by the definiton above that is acupuncture. and i've been TCM trained. what i think happens is that people confuse the 2 main definitions of intention, the one mentioned above, a variation of the well documented hawthorn effect, and 'the mysticism " , the... " there MUST be more to this than the needles " ... there isnt. if someone would like to point me to some valid research comparing the use of 'intent' to affect a treatment outcome WITH BOTH trial arms experiencing an active and 'well intentioned' therapeutic relationship as described above then i will happy read it.. regards andy http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 With all due respect Andy, your original posting didn't ask the group for a clear definition of intention. It rather asked how we felt about the importance of intention.... " what do others feel?? " - you said,.after you had expressed the opinion that strong beliefs about intention undermines acupuncture. Some people would say that even the belief in existance of Qi undermines acupuncture. I would assume however that you do believe in Qi. If so, what makes belief in the ability of a tiny metal needle's ability to move Qi acceptable and the ability of the cognitive mind to move Qi " flakey " to use your words? What qualities do these needles that allow them to move this invisable substance " Qi " ? Kind regards Dermot - " andy " < <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:53 PM Re: intention > some good points made in those replys, but, > all of you evaded an clear definiton, what is your interpretation ?... > its not enough to say " intention is very important " .... > > statements like " Masters can move Qi and balance patients just > by being in the same room " , i'm afraid is way off the scale for me, > it makes us sound.....like flakey tree huggers.. > > and much of the the supportive language is just anecdote....one > persons untested observation......this includes quoting from the > classics... > > to me, intention is conveyed, experienced and felt in the > therapeutic relationshipboth verbally and nonverbally. It is in the > interactive dynamic, it says, i intend to treat you to the best of my > ability, i will be mentally (and physically) present during your > treatment and to answer and sooth any anxieties. this space is > yours and i will use it to affect the best outcome for you that i can. > > it is not... ' Opening the ren is too strong for this person, i intend > to use Lu7 in its role of releasing the exterior, and not to open the > ren'..... > ...for me it is " just sticking the needles in " accompanied by the > definiton above that is acupuncture. and i've been TCM trained. > > what i think happens is that people confuse the 2 main > definitions of intention, the one mentioned above, a variation of > the well documented hawthorn effect, and 'the mysticism " , the... > " there MUST be more to this than the needles " ... there isnt. > > if someone would like to point me to some valid research > comparing the use of 'intent' to affect a treatment outcome WITH > BOTH trial arms experiencing an active and 'well intentioned' > therapeutic relationship as described above then i will happy > read it.. > > regards andy > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 I believe that intention is very important in acupuncture. Whilst in Beijing, one particular acupuncturist practiced Qi Gong breathing before inserting the needle. This improved the acupuncturists Qi, focus and treatment effect. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg 31 May 2005 22:23 Chinese Medicine Re: intention Not every concept in Chinese medicine has detailed research about it, Andy. I pointed you to the most extensive English language discussions on the subject, it is your choice whether you choose to read about them or not. While I agree with you that such concepts as yi/intention (signification) can be abused, to reduce the valuable classical source literature as 'anecdotal' is just the same old saw that medical researchers use to dismiss Chinese medicine outright. There are generations and thousands of volumes of case histories in Chinese, and to use the lack of modern studies on 'intention' as an excuse to dismiss it as a clinical phenomena is pointless. On May 31, 2005, at 1:53 PM, andy wrote: > > if someone would like to point me to some valid research > comparing the use of 'intent' to affect a treatment outcome WITH > BOTH trial arms experiencing an active and 'well intentioned' > therapeutic relationship as described above then i will happy > read it.. and much of the the supportive language is just anecdote....one persons untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 31, 2005 Hi All, & Christopher & Andy, Christopher, I take the liberty of passing your mail to a sister list (LIKEM - Love, Intention/Intuition, Knowledge, Empathy & Mysticism in Healing) Even if I can prove it to nobody but myself, I agree with you that loving, focused will/intention is the single most important aspect of healing, whether by acupuncture or other methods. Further (though is is deemed " scientifically unproven " ) I believe that the Creator is the Source and Fount of all healing and that we are merely Her Hands in this world. Andy, as Christopher said, acupuncture is way more than " just sticking needles in someone " . Indeed there are forms of acupuncture that involve very superficial needling, or no needling at all, as in some forms of Qigong acupuncture. Great Qi, Health and Intent to you all, Phil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > Hi Andy, I personally believe that intention is the most powerful > aspect of acupuncture. I asked Jeffery Yuen once at a seminar the > place of intention in acupuncture. He said that it is the single most > important part of acupuncture. It is the definition of intention that > causes problems for many people. Intention in the way I am talking > about is a lot more than just hoping or wishing that the patient gets > better. Intention is something that requires cultivation and focused > concentration typically requiring a lifetime of study and discipline > to excel at. The classics say that " Blood follows Qi and Qi follows > Shen " . Our intent (Shen) can move Qi, ours and our patients. Masters > can move Qi and balance patients just by being in the same room. I > believe that it is possible for each of us to achieve such mastery as > well. Acupuncture is way more than " just sticking needles in someone " . > The validity of acupuncture is based upon results. When a patient has > their symptoms greatly reduced or completely eliminated in a single > treatment and feels centered, content and grounded at the same time, > the treatment was validated. I don't need research papers or other > peoples experience to validate that treatment. I know from my own > experience, that my focused intent is the greatest determining factor > on the success of a treatment. When I am focused, flowing and moving > from a place of clear intent, it is like the rest of the universe > conspires to make the treatment work and I just need to get out of the > way and let it happen. When I am in my head, unfocused and my intent is > chatting ceaselessly with my ego about things not here and now, the > treatments rarely turn out so well. Intent is perhaps the hardest thing > to teach about this medicine. So much of what we learn is just > textbook intellectual memorization stuff. Intent is all about us and > clearing out our own stuff. In this culture especially, intent is > dismissed or marginalized since it can't be put under a microscope and > studied. It is that unseen power however that moves the treatment from > " just sticking needles in someone " to medicine at the highest level in > my opinion. People sense it and feel it and typically can't quite put > their finger on why, but it is there, they feel better, they feel > listened too, they feel more in touch with their original nature. I'd be > very interested in hearing the opinions of others on this forum as this > as well. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, Tel: (H): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) Ireland. Tel: (W): +353-(0) or (M): +353-(0) " Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt man doing it " - Chinese Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 - from the modern Hippocratic Oath (Lasagne circa 1964) I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug. Andy, I suggest learning some Feldenkrais. I've yet to see anyone come away from a good Feldenkrais teacher without a new awareness and belief in the power of mental visualization. Next, go hug a tree, and don't let go until you don't feel stupid. Maybe the tree will share a secret, like how it stays strong and beautiful even into old age with lumps, knobby growths, broken-off pieces, and bugs throughout. Next, go hug a person, and without speaking a word share that secret you just learned from the tree. When you can do that, you start to realize that precision in language is important in communication, and mandatory in law, but some conceptual terms were never meant to be taken in strict and narrow literal sense. I feel lucky now that I studied acupuncture at a time when people didn't make a big issue about pinning down nebulous concepts as Qi, - and thus GOT it. It is a shame that schools are training technicians by books and numerous articles referring to an ancient technique that science hasn't proved (and religions suspect as being contrary to their dogma). To practice Oriental Medicine as a doctor, or at least a healthcare practitioner, means learning the art and science of medicine. You may, at times, use a technique called acupuncture to promote self-healing via the peripheral nervous system. When you cultivate intent along with sensitive awareness of subtle change, you may discover that you can promote self-healing without even using the tool called a needle. Or you might consider the needle as merely a way to focus your intent. Psychic intent is either experienced or imagined by sentient beings, and the only thing that matters is whether desirable change occurs subsequent to that intent. Mental visualization is part of the skill-set of the most effective practitioners, but it is not necessary to be part of the explanation of the technique. How is it that 20 years ago Deke Kendall published a complete explanation of the physiological effects of the micro-trauma / stimulus of an acupuncture needle (release of endorphins and enkephalins, inflammatory response, anti- dramic firing of neurons within the dorsal horn, afferent impulse and efferent control) ? I didn't just look that up. I learned it in 1985 and seldom have bothered recalling it because, along with all the vital force nonsense about Qi and Jing etc., I really don't care. Why ? - Because real world practice means : - evaluate / identify " what can the person not do that they could do before?, " - develop a model for rationale of decision-making, - intend to treat, use a modality if appropriate, - assess and measure change, " are there subjective or objective gains?, " - document everything according to international standards. - and let the concepts go, because at that point they are irrelevant. Joe Reid May 31, 2005 http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 " andy " < Tue, 31 May 2005 20:53:54 -0000 >and much of the supportive language is just anecdote....one person's untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... Andy. You've been " trained " in TCM, but apparently your education in Chinese medicine is just begun (not that many of us, myself included, are that much further along). From " e-ducare, " Latin " to lead out from " , leading out from one's native conditioning with immersion in " foreign " viewpoints and experiences. Conditioning as in " definition " , " anecdote " , " untested observation " , " valid research " . Chinese medicine (way beyond the TCM mock Western, school-book model) being an extreme example of foreign - the language and perception of " reality " being nearly as distant from native American/European as it gets on this planet, modern Chinese attempts at Western accommodation and translation notwithstanding. Practically speaking, as Z'ev recommended, read Volker Scheid's article. Further, read it three times (alla J Mortimer Alder's " How to Read a Book " ): 1st through to get an overall sense; 2nd carefully and analytically, with all the footnotes and references; 3rd to get back out of the trees to the forest level and evaluate the whole experience. And study a classic or two with a competent teacher(s) (which takes years). " jreidomd " <jreidomd Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:00:04 -0000 >… but some conceptual terms were never meant to be taken in strict and narrow literal sense. Here " conceptual terms " for Chinese expressions/ideas is itself just a Western label for the dimensions of their " ideas " , which is often all we have in to work with, particularly in brief statements. But getting stuck in our translated approximations, and " strict and narrow literal sense " goes around in circles - firmly stuck back at home in our conditioning. " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot Tue, 31 May 2005 22:24:14 +0100 >What qualities do these needles that allow them to move this invisible substance " Qi " ? Example of the problem of translation side-effects: The TCM textbook translators came upon " substances " to express the category of fundamental phenomena qi, xue (blood), jinye (fluids), jing (essence), shen (spirit). With respect to qi and shen " substance " is seriously deficient. For the others less obviously, but also so. These are some sort of foci embodying functional relationships and behavioral patterns, not things you can put in jars and measure (I would say even of jinye and xue). Deeper understanding does lie beneath the surface of TCM language, hidden by the terminology. E.g. the text-book definition of qi: it 1) warms, 2) moves, 3) transforms, 4) defends, and 5) holds-up/-in/-in place - these are all activities, verbs. Qi is more a characterization of behavior than a " substance " or " material " . And, as many others here have expressed in various ways, the inklings of understanding these matters is less mystical, woo-woo, etc., but rather, when experienced, about as concrete and immediate (and medically effective) as it gets, in any system. My opinions, respectfully, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 Chris, I think you misunderstood the point that I was making. I was making a point about Intention rather than the qualities of Qi. Kind regards Dermot - " " < <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, June 01, 2005 9:08 AM Re: Intention " andy " < Tue, 31 May 2005 20:53:54 -0000 >and much of the supportive language is just anecdote....one person's untested observation......this includes quoting from the classics... Andy. You've been " trained " in TCM, but apparently your education in Chinese medicine is just begun (not that many of us, myself included, are that much further along). From " e-ducare, " Latin " to lead out from " , leading out from one's native conditioning with immersion in " foreign " viewpoints and experiences. Conditioning as in " definition " , " anecdote " , " untested observation " , " valid research " . Chinese medicine (way beyond the TCM mock Western, school-book model) being an extreme example of foreign - the language and perception of " reality " being nearly as distant from native American/European as it gets on this planet, modern Chinese attempts at Western accommodation and translation notwithstanding. Practically speaking, as Z'ev recommended, read Volker Scheid's article. Further, read it three times (alla J Mortimer Alder's " How to Read a Book " ): 1st through to get an overall sense; 2nd carefully and analytically, with all the footnotes and references; 3rd to get back out of the trees to the forest level and evaluate the whole experience. And study a classic or two with a competent teacher(s) (which takes years). " jreidomd " <jreidomd Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:00:04 -0000 >. but some conceptual terms were never meant to be taken in strict and narrow literal sense. Here " conceptual terms " for Chinese expressions/ideas is itself just a Western label for the dimensions of their " ideas " , which is often all we have in to work with, particularly in brief statements. But getting stuck in our translated approximations, and " strict and narrow literal sense " goes around in circles - firmly stuck back at home in our conditioning. " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot Tue, 31 May 2005 22:24:14 +0100 >What qualities do these needles that allow them to move this invisible substance " Qi " ? Example of the problem of translation side-effects: The TCM textbook translators came upon " substances " to express the category of fundamental phenomena qi, xue (blood), jinye (fluids), jing (essence), shen (spirit). With respect to qi and shen " substance " is seriously deficient. For the others less obviously, but also so. These are some sort of foci embodying functional relationships and behavioral patterns, not things you can put in jars and measure (I would say even of jinye and xue). Deeper understanding does lie beneath the surface of TCM language, hidden by the terminology. E.g. the text-book definition of qi: it 1) warms, 2) moves, 3) transforms, 4) defends, and 5) holds-up/-in/-in place - these are all activities, verbs. Qi is more a characterization of behavior than a " substance " or " material " . And, as many others here have expressed in various ways, the inklings of understanding these matters is less mystical, woo-woo, etc., but rather, when experienced, about as concrete and immediate (and medically effective) as it gets, in any system. My opinions, respectfully, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 thanks to all the contributors that have given time and thoughtful insights. the article recommended delved into some classical thought that I tried to embody in my definition and practice of intention. My understanding and use of 'to be present' embodies some of this, and as Guo yu explains having clear and uncluttered intention gives clarity and integrity to ones actions and therefore to ones treatment. it is precisely this personal 'authenticity' that can bring about healing and as mentioned by jreidomd does not necessarily have to involve needles. to be in the presence of someone authentic can be truly inspiring, uplifting and a healing experience. but I am concentrating on the role/use of the needles and points, and the extrapolated and nebulous use of the term intention has a devaluing effect. It reminds me of the phase of child development when children (age 4ish) become aware that an adult cannot disprove that they have a headache, it becomes the ultimate excuse/defence for not having to explain or prove your actions. this is how some lean on the term intention and use it as a crutch. the aforementioned clarity, presence and integrity, the higher goal that we are all striving for through meditation, study and self reflection becomes displaced. Some practitioners think that it doesnt matter that theres so much confilct between tonifying and reducing needled technique because 'its the intention that counts'. I probably agree with Dermot that differentiating between qi and intention is futile, but then the existence of qi is impossible to disprove. As for its role in CM i view it as i do the other energetics of the zangfu, in that it is a useful metaphor, that when in harmony these energetics describes homeostasis or balance, do i believe that at night the liver stores the blood?... no i dont.. the existence, of lack of it, of the san jiao for me exemplifies this, it only exists to complete the circle, to tidy up the loose ends, to make the metaphor complete. ironically my comment about tree huggers and Dermot's reply to this has reminded me that to exist in good health is just to 'be', to accept and bend with the forces of life. regards andy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 Hi All, I know this may be back - tracking a little, however i would like to make a contribution. My practices in Martial Arts (Ba Gua Zhang), have led me to an understanding of the " intention to treat " or " intention to emit qi " . Being that Ba Gua, and TCM is enriched with Daoist thought, i feel it is important to approach the subject from that particular viewpoint. We are, afterall, studying a theoretical and philosophical art. Intention is a mind set, and a relationship that may manifest through this intention between the physician and the patient. I agree, as some of you wrote, that it is fundamental to the outcome and " quality " of the treatment. Intention, could also (in some circumstances) be translated as committment: Sun Si Miao wrote: " Whenever a Great Physician treats diseases he has to be mentally calm and his disposition firm. He should not give way to wishes and desires, but has to develop first of all a marked attitude of compassion. He should committ himself firmly to the willingness to take the effort to save every living creature " As this is not directed at intention, it should be projected through the practitioner at all times. This phrase (as most of my colleagues are sick of me repeating) is fundamental and should be circulating in the practitioners mind, and then at that moment of needling, diagnosis, or saying goodbye, then! That is where intention, compassion, and all ones knowledge should come into play. It all should be performed at that very moment! Intention, and its effect in treatment, is not something that should be scientifically approached, it is a frame of mind. It is different for every practitioner, it is what they desire in thier life, in thier treatment, at that very moment! This is the beauty of Acupuncture, its versality, and ability to adapt (shown clearly on this forum through the reference to western thought), it, as most will find in Yin Yang (I Ching) theory, has the most amazing ability to change. Just an opinion. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder: SydneyTCM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 1, 2005 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of sydneytcm 01 June 2005 13:43 Chinese Medicine Re: Intention As this is not directed at intention, it should be projected through the practitioner at all times. This phrase (as most of my colleagues are sick of me repeating) is fundamental and should be circulating in the practitioners mind, and then at that moment of needling, diagnosis, or saying goodbye, then! That is where intention, compassion, and all ones knowledge should come into play. It all should be performed at that very moment! David White Couldn't agree more. Intention, clarity, focus, peace of mind, whatever you wanna call it, should be held within every thought. Not easy. Warm regards, Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 <attiliodalberto attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com " A human being is part of the whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest - - a kind of optical illusion in his consciousness. " (Albert Einstein) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 If intent can cause a healing by simply wishing for it, it can also cause harm, also by the simple wishing for it. The patient's qi field should remain separate from the healer's. A patient may harbor a grave illness, a cancer, a stroke, an immune deficiency, and if the field is opened to heal, by intent or will, the same doorway can allow the ill qi bearing the illness into the healer who has caused the opening. In which case however well one intended, one has come away with someone else's disease, and someone else has walked away with one's health. One may intend well as one wishes, one must not extend. Dr. Holmes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 I agree, Dr. Holmes. Spiritual healing causes more problems than benefits, imo. To each her/his own aura/qi field/... : ) Treating with intention to heal is different than changing and directing qi flow in a patient. The latter may follow from the former, but it should not be a conscious activity. Good intention should always be on our minds. Tom. ---- dkakobad 06/02/05 09:28:44 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention If intent can cause a healing by simply wishing for it, it can also cause harm, also by the simple wishing for it. The patient's qi field should remain separate from the healer's. A patient may harbor a grave illness, a cancer, a stroke, an immune deficiency, and if the field is opened to heal, by intent or will, the same doorway can allow the ill qi bearing the illness into the healer who has caused the opening. In which case however well one intended, one has come away with someone else's disease, and someone else has walked away with one's health. One may intend well as one wishes, one must not extend. Dr. Holmes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 Since intention plays such an important role, do any of you recommend any books that may help to learn the basic fundamentals regarding how to process intention correctly or is it primarily what one thinks prior to giving the treatment Thanks Brian Tom Verhaeghe <verhaeghe_tom wrote: I agree, Dr. Holmes. Spiritual healing causes more problems than benefits, imo. To each her/his own aura/qi field/... : ) Treating with intention to heal is different than changing and directing qi flow in a patient. The latter may follow from the former, but it should not be a conscious activity. Good intention should always be on our minds. Tom. ---- dkakobad 06/02/05 09:28:44 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention If intent can cause a healing by simply wishing for it, it can also cause harm, also by the simple wishing for it. The patient's qi field should remain separate from the healer's. A patient may harbor a grave illness, a cancer, a stroke, an immune deficiency, and if the field is opened to heal, by intent or will, the same doorway can allow the ill qi bearing the illness into the healer who has caused the opening. In which case however well one intended, one has come away with someone else's disease, and someone else has walked away with one's health. One may intend well as one wishes, one must not extend. Dr. Holmes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 One source is " The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " , a translation of the Jia Yi Jing by Chip Chace, Blue Poppy Press. On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:17 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > Since intention plays such an important role, do any of you > recommend any books that may help to learn the basic fundamentals > regarding how to process intention correctly or is it primarily > what one thinks prior to giving the treatment > Thanks > Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 Thank you, is there a particular chapter that goes into detail of this. Brian <zrosenbe wrote: One source is " The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " , a translation of the Jia Yi Jing by Chip Chace, Blue Poppy Press. On Jun 2, 2005, at 7:17 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > Since intention plays such an important role, do any of you > recommend any books that may help to learn the basic fundamentals > regarding how to process intention correctly or is it primarily > what one thinks prior to giving the treatment > Thanks > Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 Those more refined in their soul can indeed cause a change for the better in those whose qi is in chaos. Qi works by the laws of trajectory and moves from a higher to a lower, a finer to a grosser, gradient. If you can visualize a kid on a skate board who begins at a height, goes down a slope, meets resistance as he reaches the other end of the trough, and returns again. The part where he goes down initially is the intent particle, which is delivered to the other point, and the part where he returns, could be the chaotic qi, the illness laden qi, which in turn is picked up, and brought back. Here is another and most incongruous aspect of healing. Those who are most elevated in spirit qi run the greatest risk of losing it because the gradient is so much from high to low, fine to gross, settled to chaotic. Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five, book five, on " Consummate Needling " . On Jun 2, 2005, at 9:49 AM, Brian Hardy wrote: > Thank you, is there a particular chapter that goes into detail of > this. > Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 2, 2005 There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five, book five, on " Consummate Needling " . >>>Zev, did you refer to intention? if yes i am not sure you see consummate needling as a good example Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
