Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 " Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered, his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind, and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition), translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong. On Jun 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, wrote: > There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five, > book five, on " Consummate Needling " . > >>>> Zev, did you refer to intention? if yes i am not sure you see >>>> consummate needling as a good example >>>> > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 Thank you for the replys Brian <zrosenbe wrote: " Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered, his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind, and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition), translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong. On Jun 2, 2005, at 11:50 AM, wrote: > There are gems scattered throughout the text. But try chapter five, > book five, on " Consummate Needling " . > >>>> Zev, did you refer to intention? if yes i am not sure you see >>>> consummate needling as a good example >>>> > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 consummate needling >>> Zev, i thought consummate needling was mainly a discussion based on comparing the radial and carotid pulses. Is my memory incorrect? Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 " Prior to needling, the practitioner should retire to a quiet place and commune with his spirit with doors and windows shut. The practitioner's ethereal and corporeal souls must not be scattered, his mind must be focused, and his essence qi undivided. Undistracted by human sounds, he must marshal his essence, concentrate his mind, and direct his will entirely toward needling " . pg. 309, " The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxabustion " (first edition), translated by Charles Chace and Yang Shou-zhong. >>>>>>>>> Book of Difficult issues also states: The practitioner, after harnessing his spirit, must look up to the patient's eyes and harness the patient's spirit. In this way the Qi can move easily. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 As you know, each chapter of this text may cover several topics. The quote comes from that chapter. On Jun 2, 2005, at 3:38 PM, wrote: > consummate needling > >>>> >>>> > Zev, i thought consummate needling was mainly a discussion based on > comparing the radial and carotid pulses. Is my memory incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Which issue? Beautiful quotation >>>Cant remember Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hi All, I find intention in literture is rarely found within the Acupuncture texts, but more so, found in the philosphical and theortical texts of Daoism, Buddhism, and so on. Takuan Soho, in " the unfettered mind " , when talking about where to put ones mind in the art of iai-do, says: " if one puts his mind in the action of his opponents body, his mind will be taken by the action of his opponents body, if he puts his mind in his opponents sword, his mind will be taken by that sword... ....if he puts his mind in his own sword, his mind will be taken by his own sword... " What this means is that there is no place to put ones mind, in Zen Buddhism, this is called No - Mind, and is very important in applying oneself in everything that they do. It is the same in Acupuncture, if one puts thier mind in thier needle, then they will be taken by that needle, and thier desired goal will manifest. Daoism takes a different stance and combines the following with my previous post, " If you are able to control desire, then the mind will be still. Clear the mind and the spirit will be pure... " Desire and " want " is what will defer ones mind from the way, which should be a physicians and martial artists ultimate goal, keeping that in mind, i.e. No-Mind, at all times allows ones intention to treat and compassionately heal, to manifest without interuption. This is the core of intention. It is like pulling a bow, with the right mindset one will always hit thier desired target. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hello everybody, Intention or 'yi nian' is a central concept in qi-based medicine, including acupuncture. The process of using the mind-intent to guide qi is exactly what intention means when it's referred to in this context. Yi nian has its roots in Daoist philosophy, which unfortunately has become unacceptable in China in recent years as has the overt practice of Qi Gong, e.g. persecution of the Falun Gong, who have ridiculously been likened to some sort of 'religious sect' by the paranoid Chinese state. It is sad something as important and fundamental as intention has come to be viewed with scepticism because it isn't scientific, 'evidence-based' and so doesn't fit into any 'boxes'. It is hard to use intention properly and there no short cuts. Yes, practitioners can open themselves up to 'evil qi', but cultivating their own qi through practices such as Qi Gong and Tai Qi is a way to prevent this. This is a lifelong process that does not happen after one weekend course, but takes years of practice. Daoism has a particular relevance in today's age where the world seems to be losing its way. It is about time we started getting back to basics and reading some Daoist texts. TCM as a system is not back to basics, but more like a synopsis of the patchwork quilt of 3,000 years of Chinese medical experience and observation. If you want to really be able to practise powerfully, 'yi nian' is key, as is reading the classics like the Ling Shu, Su Wen etc. For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's article in the JCM, 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' (Journal of Chinese Medicine January 1992). Scott Bridges Qi-Gong Tui-Na practitioner London Chinese Medicine , " andy " <@s...> wrote: > hi all > > the 'use of intention' is a term often used, and i think over used > since in all texts i've read its definition remains entirely > subjective. Its meaning ranges from the, 'I intend to treat to the > best of my ability' to the " i intend to use this point not to tonify but > to reduce " . Because it evades absolute definition, and is used to > justify otherwise unfounded treatment principals, the word itself > i feel undermines the validity of acupuncture. > > what do others feel?? > > Andy > > (apologies is covered before, a search revealed nothing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 An aspect of intent. One always presumes one's mind is more collected and disciplined than the patient's. Can this always be true? Or that the patients internal structure has unraveled and he or she is in a state of spiritual and mental disengagement just because he or she has a migraine or a sore throat? What if a healer comes with a scrambled mind, with half resolved issues of his or her own, variously afraid, or stressed out, or angered, or in rage, or with some inherent phobia as yet unrecognized, and brings a fractured and unharmonious 'intent' to bear on the patient? Much worse. All this might be happening and the healer is not aware of it all? Much much worse. All this might be happening and the healer is aware of it and does this anyway? I would imagines a properly clinical manner would be sufficient in all cases. One is presentable, knowledgeable, understands the responsibility of an immediate nature to heal a condition, and the belated, to make sure the patient is provided a safe place to heal in while at the clinic. Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Musing. If I sat before a patient whom I have diagnosed well as having a migraine and am treating with the right needles placed correctly to the ultimate degree, while taking up a properly correct clinical bedside manner with due responsibility. Meanwhile I am intending the person to not heal. Will the migraine not go away? Holmes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > article in the JCM, > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > (Journal of Chinese > Medicine January 1992). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hi everyone, I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an entity? Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance? Just wondering where people were coming from. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > article in the JCM, > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > (Journal of Chinese > Medicine January 1992). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Hi It is said, I think, in Nei Jing, that " qi follows shen " . This thread has been tackled on other lists. I don't think it serves us to start separating the " parts " of ourselves from each other--shen, mind, self, hun, po, etc.--even qi. Perhaps the " fish out of water " concept applies here. Both water and fish (yin and yang) are dead without each other (separated). Intent, to me, is the intelligence behind the action. Nice words said with two opposing intents could either encourage or discourage a person. Mean words said with opposing intents could also encourage or discourage. In both cases intent is a contributing factor. However, the optimum case is nice words (right treatment), good intent (proper intent/stimulation/performance/bedside manner). Best outcome. Have I oversimplified? Respecfully, Shanna Chinese Medicine , wrote: > Hi everyone, > I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people > think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an > entity? > > Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering > the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance? > > Just wondering where people were coming from. > Best wishes, > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: intention > > > I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, > and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that > time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of > Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine > in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. > > > On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > > > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > > article in the JCM, > > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > > (Journal of Chinese > > Medicine January 1992). > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Sharon, Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism. I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of many generations before our time. Mike L. Sharon <> wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an entity? Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance? Just wondering where people were coming from. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > article in the JCM, > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > (Journal of Chinese > Medicine January 1992). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 All, Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However, maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM. Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is " don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching, and possibly even conquering ones mind. From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in general. Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing, practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just microcosmic projection of the macrocosm. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Ahh Mike, Perhaps then is it in contemplating the question that one grows? Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Mike Liaw Saturday, 4 June 2005 11:10 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: intention Sharon, Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism. I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of many generations before our time. Mike L. Sharon <> wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an entity? Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance? Just wondering where people were coming from. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > article in the JCM, > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > (Journal of Chinese > Medicine January 1992). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Hello David, I like your analysis that intent is coming from these different places; the scientific approach, the mental approach and the philosophical approach. I can relate to this in my own shifts in intent. I wonder if my observation of driving is your No-mind situation. Here I regularly drive long distances on highways in non-peak hour traffic, and I find that I look at no-thing. That is my attention is available to all things, but my focus is on no-single-thing or nothing, until a thing calls for it. I notice in my non-insertion needling I look up and out the window, not so much at the view, but into the distance perhaps this too is a kind of no-thing focus until I find my something focus. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of sydneytcm Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:32 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Intention All, Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However, maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM. Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is " don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching, and possibly even conquering ones mind. From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in general. Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing, practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just microcosmic projection of the macrocosm. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Sharon, You are absolutely right. Zen Buddhism masters often challenge the followers with these sort of questions, one question at a time, often for many days or months. However, be careful, the kind of " growth " in your understanding might not be the same kind of " growth " Zen practitioners experience. What can be said to be similar is the process. Yes, the process of contemplating the question is valuable. OK. I should stop right here, lest we should branch off too much from TCM. Mike L. Sharon <> wrote: Ahh Mike, Perhaps then is it in contemplating the question that one grows? Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Mike Liaw Saturday, 4 June 2005 11:10 AM Chinese Medicine RE: Re: intention Sharon, Your question is touching on a classical topic of Zen Buddhism. I do not have an answer to your question, neither did the Zen masters of many generations before our time. Mike L. Sharon <> wrote: Hi everyone, I was wondering as I read the many recent posts on intention, do people think it is the mind that moves the qi in intent; is the mind then an entity? Other's post seemed to suggest that there was a 'you' who once conquering the mind would be able to move the qi? So who is the 'you' in this instance? Just wondering where people were coming from. Best wishes, Chinese Medicine Chinese MedicineOn Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Saturday, 4 June 2005 5:45 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: intention I would like to point out that Bob wrote that article 13 years ago, and has changed his views substantially on these issues since that time. Supporting the concept of yi/intention in the practice of Chinese medicine does not mean that the stature of Chinese medicine in mainland China is as black and white as some would like to believe. On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:16 AM, Scott Bridges wrote: > For more on the history of TCM development etc. read Bob Flaws's > article in the JCM, > 'Thoughts on Acupuncture, Internal Medicine, and TCM in the West' > (Journal of Chinese > Medicine January 1992). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Very well said David! Thank you for writing this up! What I might add is, " No-Mind " must be accompanied by " Full Awareness. " Otherwise, this " No-Mind " situation can be easily misused and/or abused. Another point is, if we were to continue on with this stream of thoughts, the ultimate achievement is without the concept of " success in the war against disease " because one cannot achieve harmony with even a trace of this concept. Utimately, there will be no healer, no heal'ee, and nothing to be healed or fought against. Mike L. sydneytcm <sydneytcm wrote: All, Regarding the treatment of Migraine, Dr. Holmes, i believe that a therapeutic result would still be achieved. This is what alot of scientific research is trying to prove/disprove anyhow. However, maybe the maximum result would not be achieved, the underlying negatitvity that would be " projected " would create a disorder of its own. I'm not saying that this is purely or any part a mystical art, it is simply about being true to yourself and to your patient. That sort of negative thought doesn't belong in TCM. Sharon, your question is interesting. If our goal was to conquer the mind, then we would be focusing on a " control - mind " , if it were to understand, and detactch oneself from ones mind, then we would be focusing on a " No-Mind " situation. Buddha once posed similar questions, and ones like " where am i? " , " who am i? " , " what am i doing here? " etc etc. The one answer he came up with, and that is so comonly used throughout ZaZen practice, is " don't know " . Keeping the " don't Know - mind " was the first steps towards enlightenment, and hence, understanding, detaching, and possibly even conquering ones mind. From the various posts here it seems there are a few levels of intention: The scientific approach, the mental approach, and the philosophical approach. Perhaps combining the three we can come up with a very positive approach to healthcare, and life in general. Believing in what one is doing, comforting the reciever to trust in the practitioner - and themselves, and practicing, practicing, practicing is the key to success in the war against disease. Bring harmony in yourself, and your recipient, after all the body is just microcosmic projection of the macrocosm. David White Clinical Director / Practitioner Macquarie St. Clinic of Acupuncture & Founder SydneyTCM http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 I thought the group might enjoy this story from Hua -Ching Ni's translation of the works of Chuang Tzu as it relates to the subject of intention: - Matt Bauer Chapter 28 HARMONY WITH ALL LIVES AND AGREEMENT IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE The cook of the feudal lord Liang was cutting up an ox. Every shift of his hand, every move of his shoulders, every step of his foot, every thrust of his knife, every tear and cut of his work and every sound made by his blade was in perfect harmony: rhythmical, like the famous dance of the Mulberry Grove; synchronous, like the chords of a beautiful melody of great music. " Excellent " Cried Liang. " The skill you apply to your trade is extraordinary. " " Your majesty, " replied the cook, " I have devoted myself to learning the Integral Truth of life. It is the root of all skills. Many years ago, when I first began to cut oxen, I saw them as whole animals before me. But after only a number of years of practice, I no longer saw an animal as one piece; I saw it already divided into sections. " Now I work with my intuition rather than my eyes; perception and understanding have come to an end. And my spirit moves freely. I rely upon principals. I follow the natural constitution of an animal, guiding my knife through the openings and hollows, following along with the way things are. I never cut into even the smallest tendon, much less a joint. A good cook must change his knife once a year, because he cuts with it. An ordinary cook must buy a new one about once a month, because he chops with it. It's been nineteen years that I have had this knife; although I have cut up many thousand oxen with it; its edge is as good as the day it left the grindstone. You see, at the joints of the animal there are always small spaces and since the edge of the knife is without thickness, I have only to insert that which is without thickness into a space. If you insert what has no thickness into a space, then there's plenty of room for the blade to move in. In this way I have kept my knife fresh for nineteen years. " But when I come upon a complicated place, I am extremely cautious. I fix my gaze upon it, steady my hand and gently apply the blade, moving it with great subtlety until the part yields and falls to the ground. Then I remove my knife, stand up and pause. Carefully I clean it and put it away. " " Magnificent, " cried the prince. " From the words of this cook I have learned the secret of how to care for life by living with the Integral Way. " X X X X - sydneytcm Chinese Medicine Friday, June 03, 2005 6:19 AM Re: Intention o translate this message, copy and paste it into this web link page, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was about validity of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and reduction are flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi in, or take Qi out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be added. And magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by temporary change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a vaguely defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a Vital Force called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted? Acupuncture is an empirical science, the result of centuries of a lot of poke and hope (complementing awareness and astute observation). Insisting on Vitalism instantly compels most Christians and people who think they are modern to doubt and fear. Churches teach them to not believe in or trust anyone claiming they can put good Qi in, or take bad Qi out, because it sounds either satanic or at least un-scientific. To the contrary, we KNOW what happens. There is either sensory or motor input, and a cascade of physiologic and functional reaction. In discussing relative status we refer to the _collective (or aggregate) movement _ as the flow of Qi. We call physical impediments to that flow (or to cognitive awareness of that flow) the blockage of Qi. Optimal treatment adjusts relative distribution. Herbal tonification either directly supplements or facilitates nutrition, but Qi is still only meaningful in terms of process. The skin is a sense organ, and there are various other receptors in deeper tissue. The most direct explanation of acupuncture is simply, that slight yet specific stimulation provokes different response, depending on where the stimulated points are, and the degree of stimulus, slight or strong. We know that we get better results when the stimulus also provokes greater or more attuned AWARENESS in the patient. To many, _intent _ seems to involve positive / good thoughts (as opposed to negative / bad / harmful). Well-intentioned healers naturally desire and wish that their patients get well. The problem is that this goes to a judgmental notion of _shoulds _. I see a great deal of medicine as being inappropriately imposed on patients who have been trained to distrust their own self-healing mechanisms. Alternative practitioners sometimes try to make up for the knife and drug by force of will. The numerous techniques of pre-composed guided imagery are gymnastic training that may happen (incidentally) to be therapeutic. When I refer to mental visualization, the essential component for me is listening in stillness. Whether touching or merely in their presence, I will try to synchronize my breathing with theirs. I will watch with peripheral vision, but not analyze that information – it just alerts me to a heightened attunement. My intent follows my knowledge base, the results of interview, and examination. It is not energy work up to that point, and to that point I try not to project anything. IF I feel I have reached an effortless attention where I can sense what is now and what might be, only then I might go with the muse of the moment. The best analogy of that state is similar to shooting a basketball when you know it is going in the instant you release, and you merely follow it through. There are no _shoulds _, only suggestion of new possibility that already feels like you know it is about to happen. When I manage to do that, my focus of intent seems to enable their heightened awareness, and change ensues, not by force of will, but because it was gently encouraged and agreed upon without words. Just for fun, try placing the vantage point of mind behind ren6. We are more than our differences, and more than our techniques. Joe Reid June 3, 2005 http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 I've enjoyed reading the responses to this thread, and thought I'd put in an addition from western medicine that I think might be pertinent to this discussion. Many western nurses are taught Therapeutic Touch, which is based on the idea that touching the patient in a way that transmits caring helps with the patients' recovery. This seems a valid corroboration of the idea of intent, but without the eastern ideas of Qi, yi, shen, jing, etc. There were some studies of therapeutic touch conducted in the 70's and 80's, and my remembrance is that the studies had positive results for the technique. The bottom line is that patients respond to a competent, confident and caring practitioner, no matter what medicine they practice. Practitioners who care practice intent. Steve E. jreidomd wrote: >Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was about validity >of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and reduction are >flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi in, or take Qi >out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be added. And >magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by temporary >change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a vaguely >defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that >acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a Vital Force >called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted? > >Acupuncture is an empirical science, the result of centuries of a lot of poke >and hope (complementing awareness and astute observation). Insisting on >Vitalism instantly compels most Christians and people who think they are >modern to doubt and fear. Churches teach them to not believe in or trust >anyone claiming they can put good Qi in, or take bad Qi out, because it >sounds either satanic or at least un-scientific. > >To the contrary, we KNOW what happens. There is either sensory or motor >input, and a cascade of physiologic and functional reaction. > >In discussing relative status we refer to the _collective (or aggregate) >movement _ as the flow of Qi. We call physical impediments to that flow (or to >cognitive awareness of that flow) the blockage of Qi. Optimal treatment >adjusts relative distribution. Herbal tonification either directly supplements or >facilitates nutrition, but Qi is still only meaningful in terms of process. > >The skin is a sense organ, and there are various other receptors in deeper >tissue. The most direct explanation of acupuncture is simply, that slight yet >specific stimulation provokes different response, depending on where the >stimulated points are, and the degree of stimulus, slight or strong. > >We know that we get better results when the stimulus also provokes greater or >more attuned AWARENESS in the patient. To many, _intent _ seems to >involve positive / good thoughts (as opposed to negative / bad / harmful). >Well-intentioned healers naturally desire and wish that their patients get well. >The problem is that this goes to a judgmental notion of _shoulds _. I see a >great deal of medicine as being inappropriately imposed on patients who >have been trained to distrust their own self-healing mechanisms. Alternative >practitioners sometimes try to make up for the knife and drug by force of will. > >The numerous techniques of pre-composed guided imagery are gymnastic >training that may happen (incidentally) to be therapeutic. When I refer to >mental visualization, the essential component for me is listening in stillness. >Whether touching or merely in their presence, I will try to synchronize my >breathing with theirs. I will watch with peripheral vision, but not analyze that >information – it just alerts me to a heightened attunement. > >My intent follows my knowledge base, the results of interview, and >examination. It is not energy work up to that point, and to that point I try not to >project anything. IF I feel I have reached an effortless attention where I can >sense what is now and what might be, only then I might go with the muse of >the moment. The best analogy of that state is similar to shooting a basketball >when you know it is going in the instant you release, and you merely follow it >through. There are no _shoulds _, only suggestion of new possibility that >already feels like you know it is about to happen. When I manage to do that, >my focus of intent seems to enable their heightened awareness, and change >ensues, not by force of will, but because it was gently encouraged and agreed >upon without words. > >Just for fun, try placing the vantage point of mind behind ren6. >We are more than our differences, and more than our techniques. >Joe Reid June 3, 2005 >http://www.jreidomd.blogspot.com > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > > >If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on this link > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2005 Report Share Posted June 4, 2005 " The bottom line is that patients respond to a competent, confident and caring practitioner, no matter what medicine they practice. Practitioners who care practice intent. " Yes Steve, I agree. However, I believe that intent is a certain kind of caring that is focused, developed and made manifest in the world. I may care about the plight of the poor and starving in the slums of Calcutta, but Mother Theresa practiced intent because she manifested her caring in the world. Perhaps intent is caring brought to focus and acted upon. I suspect most of us have experienced being with someone and just feeling totally connected and comfortable with them. We have felt safe, cared for and even loved. Sometimes these feelings occur within minutes. I suggest that this is intent in action. By what-ever complex subtle ques or gestures we trust and feel safe. I suspect most of us have also experienced the touch of someone who we felt was not right, uncomfortable, unwelcoming. Could this be from their intent, however subconscious it might have been? I had a massage once from a therapist who was just awesome. I was just putty in their hands after about 2 minutes. I have also had massage from therapists that it just felt like nobody was home and even though they seemed to do everything " right " it just didn't feel as good. I explain the difference as intent. It doesn't have to be something mystical or unscientific. It is likely a very complex social / biological phenomenon with subtleties that go unnoticed to the conscious mind. It may even be Quantum mechanical in nature with transfers of super subtle energies, I don't know. I do know that it is very real and very powerful in healing regardless of how we try and be so " scientific " and " objective " about it. Excellent discussion, thanks everyone. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2005 Report Share Posted June 5, 2005 I don't know your source here, but my understanding of supplmentation/ bu3 and drainage/xie4 is that it has to do with the manipulation of qi within the body, not adding or subtracting from the outside.. Qi is not an energy, and it is not vaguely defined. Within the context of Chinese medicine, qi can be clearly understood as an informational entity based in the understanding of form, function, and relationships of parts to each other and the whole, not the physical 'stuff' of the body. On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:29 AM, jreidomd wrote: > Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was > about validity > of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and > reduction are > flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi > in, or take Qi > out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be > added. And > magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by > temporary > change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a > vaguely > defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that > acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a > Vital Force > called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hey Zev, Could you write more about qi within the context of . What do you think about Unschuld's translation of the character as " vapour from food " for example? Do any of the other scholars on this list have other interpretations or ideas. Regards Ray Ford Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Monday, 6 June 2005 5:18 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Intention I don't know your source here, but my understanding of supplmentation/ bu3 and drainage/xie4 is that it has to do with the manipulation of qi within the body, not adding or subtracting from the outside.. Qi is not an energy, and it is not vaguely defined. Within the context of Chinese medicine, qi can be clearly understood as an informational entity based in the understanding of form, function, and relationships of parts to each other and the whole, not the physical 'stuff' of the body. On Jun 4, 2005, at 12:29 AM, jreidomd wrote: > Going back to the beginning of this thread, the first question was > about validity > of _intention to tonify _. I personally think tonification and > reduction are > flawed concepts insofar as the idea that we can or should put Qi > in, or take Qi > out of a patient's body. Heat and cold, yes. And nutrition can be > added. And > magnets and light appear to do something or other (measurable by > temporary > change in the VAS pulse, a least). But adding or subtracting a > vaguely > defined energy, to me seems directly tied in with a false notion that > acupuncture (and oriental medicine) is " based on the theory of a > Vital Force > called Qi. " Why is this idea promoted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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