Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

[Guest guest]

> I am 60

now, I will be dead in 10 years or at least too old to

practice, won't I<

My Grandfather of blessed memory had a practice till

he was 96 yrs old..........

 

I am only one; but still I am one.

I cannot do everything, but still I can do something;

I will not refuse to do the something I can do.

- Helen Keller

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Todd Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

> Pete- I have no firsthand experience of what biz is like in FL. I do

> have a colleague who moved from LA to FL about a year ago. He is

> treating around 30 pts a week. He has told me that there is a lot of

> money in his area.

 

Where? It couldn't be that he was " very lucky " could it?

 

> So far, his experience and practice have been going great. As far as

> getting patients who can afford acupuncture there are many practice

> management and building systems out there now. Here are 2 websites

> to look at: www.davidsingerenterprises.com

 

But Singer is known to add up to a fortune for *him* from *you* . . .

>

> www.theacupreneur.com

 

" one time investment of $127.00 , and then $27.95 per month " this will

quickly break you as well.

 

>

> I do not use either of these systems personally but have great things

> about both. Another site is www.100kacupuncture.com. This site is

> run by Honora Lee Wolfe(sp) who runs practice management seminars

> around the country.

 

This site is interesting, thanks for this.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

>

> Hope this helps- Todd

>

> Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Todd Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

>

>> John- You might want to look at staying in FL. Fl has one of the

>> most liberal scope of practice in the nation.

>

>

> Hi Todd!

>

> But, you need to tell him the other side of the coin. Florida is a

> third world country as far as working folk's incomes go. He will have

> to go 5 + years with *no* income unless he is very lucky.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> www.davidsingerenterprises.com

>

>

> To use this you better be ready to be a hard core sales person, it

> does work if you are willing. My partner built his practice fairly

> quickly but he gives talks and sales several times a week. I could

> never do it

>

 

Hi Alon!

 

I can't imagine doing any " selling " in the medical field at all,

completely unethical. This is the root of all the trouble, people

selling surgery, drugs, " prolotherapy " the list is endless. Just wait

until some flack coins a buzzword out of TCM modalities . . .

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Doc wrote:

>> I am 60

>

> now, I will be dead in 10 years or at least too old to practice,

> won't I . . .

 

> My Grandfather of blessed memory had a practice till he was 96 yrs

> old..........

 

Hi Doc!

 

Well, God bless him. I have led a hard life of nearly continuous

misfortune and I am not well as a result of it. Expecting to live

another 10 years is not realistic for me.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Did you know that according to the 5 E set up one never gets old nor

stays young

nor falls ill?

 

If qi can cover 1440 minutes for one rotation of Earth on it's own axis

and arrive at

LU 9 at 01.01 AM after having started from there at 01:00 AM twice 12

hours ago,

and there is no hinderance at any stage, and the heart beats by the

following ancient

format, one can go on perpetually:

 

2 beats for 1 inhalation

1 beat for a pause

2 beats for 1 exhalation.

 

Life is entirely horary in nature, and there is no provision for it's

cessation, nor for illness.

 

The elements do not tire, the qi is fresh and vital at all times, the

qualities of elements does not

change, and the emotions are forever experienced and never cause illness.

 

Because the circuit is perpetual. life is perpetual.

 

Death is in a sense a denial of this.

 

Holmes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pete Theisen wrote:

 

> Doc wrote:

> >> I am 60

> >

> > now, I will be dead in 10 years or at least too old to practice,

> > won't I . . .

>

> > My Grandfather of blessed memory had a practice till he was 96 yrs

> > old..........

>

> Hi Doc!

>

> Well, God bless him. I have led a hard life of nearly continuous

> misfortune and I am not well as a result of it. Expecting to live

> another 10 years is not realistic for me.

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

 

I live in the West Palm area. People here seem to have a general

distrust of " The Man " and are pretty well read about the poor performance of

western

medical treatment of chronic disease.

 

Because of this, there is a good supply of people looking to get out of

the system and do something for themselves. The average age of the people I

see is 50 or so. They still work, have money, the kids are gone, they read, and

have a sense of personal empowerment that will get them into their next stage

of life with general good health.

 

 

 

Chris

 

In a message dated 4/26/2005 2:13:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, petet

writes:

 

Musiclear wrote:

>

>

> Well, not really. I live in Florida and there is a ton of money

> around

 

Hi Chris!

 

Here in Sarasota it is as I said, a lot of money but not for working

people. Getting a keg of beer is whim, getting an acupuncture treatment

is serious decision.

 

Folks around here will pay anything for beer and nothing for health

care. If the insurance doesn't pay it they don't want it. Where in

Florida are you?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Folks around here will pay anything for beer and nothing for health

care. If the insurance doesn't pay it they don't want it. Where in

Florida are you?Regards,Pete

 

 

MM: soon we will have universal health care.

i have one more question regarding licensing regulation. if you get your degree

from one of the schools that doesnt teach the higher level that california

requires, can you still take the exam in california? for instance, a person

could do extra studying on one's own.

thanks.

Mercurius Trismegistus

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

dkakobad wrote:

> Did you know that according to the 5 E set up one never gets old nor

> stays young nor falls ill?

 

<snip>

 

> Death is in a sense a denial of this.

>

> Holmes.

 

Hi Dr. Holmes!

 

Guess you will live to a couple thousand and I will die soon, then. Oh,

well . . .

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Mercurius Trismegistus wrote:

>

> Folks around here will pay anything for beer and nothing for health

> care. If the insurance doesn't pay it they don't want it. Where in

> Florida are you?Regards,Pete

>

>

> MM: soon we will have universal health care.

 

Hi MM!

 

If we do it won't cover anything. Or you will die waiting.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

The answer is no. The purpose of having schools go thru the CA site visits,

etc is to regulate them much as an accrediting agency, ACAOM does. This is

a regulatory matter not an issue of students studying more. It is out of

our hands. Sorry.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 01:24:48 -0700

>

>

>Folks around here will pay anything for beer and nothing for health

>care. If the insurance doesn't pay it they don't want it. Where in

>Florida are you?Regards,Pete

>

>

>MM: soon we will have universal health care.

>i have one more question regarding licensing regulation. if you get your

>degree from one of the schools that doesnt teach the higher level that

>california requires, can you still take the exam in california? for

>instance, a person could do extra studying on one's own.

>thanks.

>Mercurius Trismegistus

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete,

This was not meant to make you feel comfortable but to motivate all of us to

seek improvement. Medicare bill passage was one important area. We can

ecclipse WM if we continue to make strides forward. Good luck to you. By

the way, have you tried using feng shui and setting intentions in your

office? It can have amazing results.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

>Pete Theisen <petet

>Chinese Medicine

>Chinese Medicine

>Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:11:56 -0400

>

>mike Bowser wrote:

> > It is much worse in other parts of the country like the midwest where

> > we have no insurance parity with the MD and DC that do acupuncture.

> > America is becoming a third world country, not just FL.

>

>Hi Mike!

>

>Thanks, I feel better starving now. Misery loves company.

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

[Guest guest]

Mercurius-

Unfortunately this is not the case. The government and different accrediting

associations need to have, on paper, the minimum of what each student has

studied. With the recent Little Hoover Commission findings(the subject of many

earlier posts), this may change. The ACAOM may take over the accreditation of

the schools. But until that happens, the status quo remains.

 

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum wrote:

 

Folks around here will pay anything for beer and nothing for health

care. If the insurance doesn't pay it they don't want it. Where in

Florida are you?Regards,Pete

 

 

MM: soon we will have universal health care.

i have one more question regarding licensing regulation. if you get your degree

from one of the schools that doesnt teach the higher level that california

requires, can you still take the exam in california? for instance, a person

could do extra studying on one's own.

thanks.

Mercurius Trismegistus

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pete-

 

Where? It couldn't be that he was " very lucky " could it?

 

I don't think " luck " has a significant influence on how one's Acu practice goes.

My colleague practices in Naples. He treats many different types of patients.

He did a lot of research on the demographics of where he would open his

practice. He talks to anyone who will listen about health, acu, herbs, etc. He

is about 50 y.o. and has been in the health field for about 20 years.

 

But Singer is known to add up to a fortune for *him* from *you* . . .

 

I have been to a " seminar " by David Singer where he tries to sell you on his

system. I agree with the different posts from Alon and others. His system is

very sales oriented. On the other hand, many Acu's I know are what I might call

" business deficient. " I am one of them. I enjoy the practice of medicine. The

business side of it is not as enjoyable for me. But in order to succeed, I do

what I need to do. Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use

marketing to increase your patient visits? If you indeed are able to bring in

more patients, isn't this more people you can help? And show them the wonderful

art that is acupuncture?

 

 

 

Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

> Pete- I have no firsthand experience of what biz is like in FL. I do

> have a colleague who moved from LA to FL about a year ago. He is

> treating around 30 pts a week. He has told me that there is a lot of

> money in his area.

 

Where? It couldn't be that he was " very lucky " could it?

 

> So far, his experience and practice have been going great. As far as

> getting patients who can afford acupuncture there are many practice

> management and building systems out there now. Here are 2 websites

> to look at: www.davidsingerenterprises.com

 

But Singer is known to add up to a fortune for *him* from *you* . . .

>

> www.theacupreneur.com

 

" one time investment of $127.00 , and then $27.95 per month " this will

quickly break you as well.

 

>

> I do not use either of these systems personally but have great things

> about both. Another site is www.100kacupuncture.com. This site is

> run by Honora Lee Wolfe(sp) who runs practice management seminars

> around the country.

 

This site is interesting, thanks for this.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

>

> Hope this helps- Todd

>

> Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Todd Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

>

>> John- You might want to look at staying in FL. Fl has one of the

>> most liberal scope of practice in the nation.

>

>

> Hi Todd!

>

> But, you need to tell him the other side of the coin. Florida is a

> third world country as far as working folk's incomes go. He will have

> to go 5 + years with *no* income unless he is very lucky.

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on

this link

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing to increase

your patient visits?

>>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the unethical.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

ACAOM covers programs for much of the country including CA, although the

state is the over-riding authority here. ACAOM is recognized by the US dept

of Ed. I think this is the major reason for federal financial aid to

acupuncture students (I could be wrong so feel free to correct this). There

is at least one program in CA, that I am aware, that is not ACAOM accredited

and also not providing federal student aid. As this is a concern for many

students, it is my recommendation to seek out a program that is both, ACAOM

accreditted and also CA-recognized for the most practice options. Most CA

programs tend to have more hours and also more western medicine courses and

some even have internships in western medical facilities. Some schools may

have similar hours but unless they have been inspected and approved by CA

Acu Bd they are not allowed to have their graduates sit for CA Acu exam.

Every state runs things differently and this has caused a lot of pain within

the profession over the division.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:01:35 -0700

>

>Mercurius-Unfortunately this is not the case. The government and different

>accrediting associations need to have, on paper, the minimum of what each

>student has studied. With the recent Little Hoover Commission findings(the

>subject of many earlier posts), this may change. The ACAOM may take over

>the accreditation of the schools. But until that happens, the status quo

>remains.Todd

>

>

>MM: so what states does ACAOM cover?

>also, what academic material do the california approved schools cover that

>the other schools dont?

>Mercurius Trismegistus

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services (some groups

endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal unless licensed

for insurance).

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> " " <alonmarcus

>Chinese Medicine

><Chinese Medicine >

>Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

>Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:30:24 -0500

>

>Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing to

>increase your patient visits?

> >>>Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the unethical.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mercurius-Unfortunately this is not the case. The government and different

accrediting associations need to have, on paper, the minimum of what each

student has studied. With the recent Little Hoover Commission findings(the

subject of many earlier posts), this may change. The ACAOM may take over the

accreditation of the schools. But until that happens, the status quo

remains.Todd

 

 

MM: so what states does ACAOM cover?

also, what academic material do the california approved schools cover that the

other schools dont?

Mercurius Trismegistus

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

mike Bowser wrote:

> Pete,

> This was not meant to make you feel comfortable but to motivate all of us to

> seek improvement. Medicare bill passage was one important area. We can

> ecclipse WM if we continue to make strides forward. Good luck to you. By

> the way, have you tried using feng shui and setting intentions

 

Hi Mike!

 

I think I have the Feng Shui as good as I can get it, it will never be

perfect. Tell me more about the " setting intentions " that you speak of.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Todd Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

 

<snip>

 

> Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing

 

Hi Todd!

 

Of course it is sales!

 

Well, before the telemarketing law took effect I used to call people and

try to make appointments to make talks, but now that is illegal. Didn't

work very well anyway.

 

When you participate in a health fair you get accosted by an army of

nervy unethical salesmen who paid $5 to get in so they can pester the

heck out of you - to the point where you have to break off of it very

rudely.

 

Last two times I did a show I hired a nice girl to front for me at the

show with literature and a canned pitch about coming into the office for

a free orientation to TCM while I sat down in the booth with the more

serious prospects. I got nowhere - people would make appointments and

then not show up, however . . .

 

Several young men made appointments with the girl to see me thinking

that the girl would be at my office! They came and were furious to

discover that I had just hired her for the show. She has a boyfriend

anyway, for heaven's sake!

 

I have advertised in the paper, that brings in tourists for a couple of

treatments on their vacation, but at a cost of $800 or so per patient

and you don't make $800 a patient. I have tried direct mail and that is

even a higher cost per patient.

 

is good practice, but bad business here in Sarasota. Of

course, it doesn't help that there are two TCM schools in town with 15

room clinics cranking out low cost services.

 

What are the demographics of your friend's practice?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing

> to increase your patient visits?

>

>>>> Its what he teaches you to say which i thing borders on the

>>>> unethical.

 

Hi Alon!

 

Yes, that was my take on it as well.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

mike Bowser wrote:

> It is sales if you have patients sign up for pre-paid services (some

> groups endorse this) and also the practice of insurance (illegal

> unless licensed for insurance).

 

Hi Mike!

 

It is sales if you sign them up for an appointment for a free visit. You

are " selling " them the idea of coming to see you.

 

Yes, we have to do it, but it is most assuredly sales.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

You mentioned about the demographic area in FL for TCM practice. I am going to

start the Master degree program on TCM this fall in Ft. Lauderdale. I am at

West Palm Beach. Do you have any first hand information about west coast of FL?

Thanks

-

Pete Theisen

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:39 PM

Re: Acupuncture Licensing Regulation

 

 

Todd Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

 

<snip>

 

> Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing

 

Hi Todd!

 

Of course it is sales!

 

Well, before the telemarketing law took effect I used to call people and

try to make appointments to make talks, but now that is illegal. Didn't

work very well anyway.

 

When you participate in a health fair you get accosted by an army of

nervy unethical salesmen who paid $5 to get in so they can pester the

heck out of you - to the point where you have to break off of it very

rudely.

 

Last two times I did a show I hired a nice girl to front for me at the

show with literature and a canned pitch about coming into the office for

a free orientation to TCM while I sat down in the booth with the more

serious prospects. I got nowhere - people would make appointments and

then not show up, however . . .

 

Several young men made appointments with the girl to see me thinking

that the girl would be at my office! They came and were furious to

discover that I had just hired her for the show. She has a boyfriend

anyway, for heaven's sake!

 

I have advertised in the paper, that brings in tourists for a couple of

treatments on their vacation, but at a cost of $800 or so per patient

and you don't make $800 a patient. I have tried direct mail and that is

even a higher cost per patient.

 

is good practice, but bad business here in Sarasota. Of

course, it doesn't help that there are two TCM schools in town with 15

room clinics cranking out low cost services.

 

What are the demographics of your friend's practice?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click

on this link

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pete-

I don't know the exact demographics of his practice. What I do know about his

practice is this:

1-He started in a Chiro clinic. The Chiro that owned the clinic gave him a

great break on the rent.

2-My colleague, like I had stated in an earlier post, is the type of person who

talks to everyone. He has been in the health field for quite some time and

therefore has a very confident air about him. He also teaches martial arts and

other related areas so he is always meeting new people.

3-Before he moved to Naples, he and his wife travelled there at least 2-3

times(that I knew of) to visit the area.

4-He has a great business mind. He knows what works for him in his practice in

terms of marketing and talking with potential patients.

 

I have had a lot of the similiar problems that you and other L.Ac.'s have had

with growing a practice. The main reason I didn't sign up with Singer is the

over the top sales he goes through. Paying the one time fee is one thing;

having to cough up more dough for the lecture materials, etc. seemed too much

for me.

 

I have to agree with Holly in her post. I think the business and practice

growing aspect of the acupuncture education is sorely lacking. I am trying to

gobble up whatever business knowledge I can to integrate into my practice. I

get caught many times trying to figure out if I pushed the business/money end

too hard and the acupuncture end not enough.

 

Thanks for the great and enlightening posts.

 

Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Larlee L.Ac. wrote:

 

<snip>

 

> Is it sales when you approach someone or give talks or use marketing

 

Hi Todd!

 

Of course it is sales!

 

Well, before the telemarketing law took effect I used to call people and

try to make appointments to make talks, but now that is illegal. Didn't

work very well anyway.

 

When you participate in a health fair you get accosted by an army of

nervy unethical salesmen who paid $5 to get in so they can pester the

heck out of you - to the point where you have to break off of it very

rudely.

 

Last two times I did a show I hired a nice girl to front for me at the

show with literature and a canned pitch about coming into the office for

a free orientation to TCM while I sat down in the booth with the more

serious prospects. I got nowhere - people would make appointments and

then not show up, however . . .

 

Several young men made appointments with the girl to see me thinking

that the girl would be at my office! They came and were furious to

discover that I had just hired her for the show. She has a boyfriend

anyway, for heaven's sake!

 

I have advertised in the paper, that brings in tourists for a couple of

treatments on their vacation, but at a cost of $800 or so per patient

and you don't make $800 a patient. I have tried direct mail and that is

even a higher cost per patient.

 

is good practice, but bad business here in Sarasota. Of

course, it doesn't help that there are two TCM schools in town with 15

room clinics cranking out low cost services.

 

What are the demographics of your friend's practice?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

 

If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other academics, click on

this link

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

John Young wrote:

> Hi Pete, You mentioned about the demographic area in FL for TCM

> practice. I am going to start the Master degree program on TCM this

> fall in Ft. Lauderdale. I am at West Palm Beach. Do you have any

> first hand information about west coast of FL? Thanks

 

Hi John!

 

Someone posted that he is doing well in St. Pete. Things are absolutely

terrible in Sarasota, don't even think of coming to Sarasota unless you

want to burn through a million dollars before you get established and

that might not do it.

 

Four years from now it might be different. We might have passed the

Medicare law by then.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Pete wrote:

Hi John!

 

Someone posted that he is doing well in St. Pete. Things are absolutely

terrible in Sarasota, don't even think of coming to Sarasota unless you

want to burn through a million dollars before you get established and

That might not do it.

 

Hello again Pete,

 

You seem like such a reasonable guy, you also come across to me at least

in these posts as angry, upset, bitter and very resistant. Your attitude

reminds me of my most difficult patients who ALWAYS say " YES,BUT.... "

they always add the but... to justify and defend why they refuse to

change their point of view or behaviour even though it is so obviously

not working. I would like to remind you (and myself) that we are dealing

with an energy based medicine.

As most communication between practitioner and patient is non-verbal,

(even if we are unaware of this fact) we cannot fake our state of being

when we are with them. IF the unfairness and injustice and confusion of

it all is bouncing around between your ears most of the day, your

patients we FEEL it and they won't want to come back, they may not know

why, they will NOT be enthusiastic about you amongst their friends and

family. Even " prospective " clients will feel it from a distance.

You have chosen to be (or been chosen?)an instrument (body, mind,

spirit) for helping others to heal, most are coming for help with their

energy. We have an obligation to raise our own levels in order to help

others do the same, this also goes for attitude, especially optimism, if

you can't find any how on earth do you offer it? Being a practitioner is

a privilege it is challenging but can be seen as an enormous opportunity

for personal growth, as witnessed by the amazing responses I have read

by some incredibly enlightened folk on this forum who are trying

desperately to help you. ARE YOU LISTENING.....??????

 

All the best

Ray Ford

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://babel.altavista.com/

 

 

and

adjust accordingly.

 

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