pattern diagnosis

[Guest guest]

vacuity heat (or cold) as false heat (or cold).

>>>I have never seen anyone talking about empty/vacuity/deficiency-heat as false

heat. Perhaps you can give me the name of the book.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

> Steven Slater [laozhongyi]

> Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:20 PM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

>

>

> On 30/11/2004, at 7:04 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> >

> > false heat is not

> > deficient heat

> >>>> No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this

> >>>> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the

> >>>> difference between the clinical description we are talking about.

> >>>> This is basic TCM 101.

> >

> >

>

> Hi Alon,

>

> I totally agree that the clinical descriptions of false heat versus

> deficicncy heat are TCM 101. My concern and this was the part of this

> thread that brought up this issue was that some (many?) thought that

> false heat was just a different term for deficiency heat.

[Jason]

Just so everyone is on the same page...

 

1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese texts that I

have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as Chinese

teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it or not)...

It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat

prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this term

incorrectly (in writing)... (I AM NOT saying I agree with this)... Look at

this entry for Tian Men Dong:

 

" # Asparagus Root (Tian Men Dong)

Tuber Asparagi Cochinchinensis

Common Name: Asparagus Fern Tuber

Family: Liliaceae

Energy and Flavor: sweet, bitter and cold

Organ Meridian Affected: Lung and Kidney

 

Properties: yin tonic, nutritive, demulcent, expectorant

 

Indications: This herb is indicated for yin deficiency of the lung and

kidney when there are signs of ***false heat*** because of the yin

deficiency. It is used for lung abscesses and hot sputum that may contain

blood and is difficult to expectorate. It moistens the dryness of yin

deficiency and lubricates the intestines when there is constipation due to

dry intestines. "

 

Clearly a misuse... but shows that people use this term that way. That is

all...

 

For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that the 2

terms are synonymous.

 

2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view of False

heat (as the real 'false heat true cold'). I.e. That it must come from

Excess and that it is acute life-threatening. Nothing to do with vacuity

heat... These are 2 separate issues... I Hope that is clear.

 

-

 

 

>

> If someone believes these two terms are synomyns, what is the

> alternative term for the " false heat " (jia re) that is very different

> from " deficicney heat " (xu re)? This was my initial concern and remains

> my concern.

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 30/11/2004, at 1:06 AM, wrote:

 

> For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that

> the 2

> terms are synonymous.

>

>

 

I know you don't think they are the same thing Jason, but this thread

(before you joined) turned to the definitions of false and vacuity heat

because some thought they were the same.ie. synonymous.

 

Perhaps much of this is just a result of coming in half way along a

conversation.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

S,

 

(Sorry, I did come in half way, but I thought I read all the posts....) It

just seemed like you were saying that I was saying they were synonymous, and

then asking me to produce Chinese sources... Oh well... anyway, who are

these heathens saying that such terms are identical, let's go get em'....

 

-Jason

 

>

> Steven Slater [laozhongyi]

> Monday, November 29, 2004 7:10 AM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

>

>

> On 30/11/2004, at 1:06 AM, wrote:

>

> > For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said that

> > the 2

> > terms are synonymous.

> >

> >

>

> I know you don't think they are the same thing Jason, but this thread

> (before you joined) turned to the definitions of false and vacuity heat

> because some thought they were the same.ie. synonymous.

>

> Perhaps much of this is just a result of coming in half way along a

> conversation.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

> Steve

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

> Monday, November 29, 2004 1:05 PM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

>

> false heat is not

> deficient heat

> >>>No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this

> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the difference

> between the clinical description we are talking about. This is basic TCM

> 101.

>

[Jason]

I think that this is a good point... One can get worked up about the perfect

definition or term choice, but if instead (like the tian men dong example)

one just uses their brain and tries to figure out what the author is saying

within the context it is less an issue. This happens when one reads Chinese

why shouldn't we expect this in English... [Again not agreeing with the

false heat use in the Tian Men Dong example]

 

In so doing this, just maybe, one will have a broader view and use of a

term, and in getting out of the box, quite possibly a broader clinical

perspective...

 

-Jason

 

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

> [Jason]

> Just so everyone is on the same page...

>

> 1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese

texts that I

> have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as

Chinese

> teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it

or not)...

> It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat

> prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this

term

> incorrectly (in writing)...

 

 

I agree with you. I think the use of false heat to describe

vacuity/deficiency heat is just a verbal transmission error. It is

not hard to see how it would be explained in this way, nor is it

hard for an educated person to understand the meaning even if the

term is not used correctly. People take what they hear and then

write it down without considering that a new student who might be

reading their writing doesn't understand the concepts of false and

true heat. Students might be confused by getting a mixed message,

but we basically get used to discrepancies in English CM literature

by necessity anyway.

 

> 2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view

of False

> heat (as the real 'false heat true cold').

 

No contest there. We all agree that false heat true cold is

different from xu heat, even though the term false heat is

mistakenly used for xu heat. Real false heat could likely show up

from a variety of causes in varying degrees of severity.

 

The example you presented to show the error through mai men dong has

a bigger issue that I have long been curious about. It is described

as nutritive, demulcent, expectorant. Does anyone know where these

concepts come from? They would be commonly applied to Western

herbs, and I assume they have to do with pharmacology. I'm not sure

whether they come from a distorted translation of traditional

properties, or from translation of Chinese pharmaceutical

literature, or whether they are made up to fit the experience and

understanding of Western authors.

 

Eric

 

, " "

<@c...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Steven Slater [laozhongyi@m...]

> > Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:20 PM

> >

> > Re: pattern diagnosis

> >

> >

> >

> > On 30/11/2004, at 7:04 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > false heat is not

> > > deficient heat

> > >>>> No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively

all this

> > >>>> discussion just goes away, since hopefully every one knows

the

> > >>>> difference between the clinical description we are talking

about.

> > >>>> This is basic TCM 101.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Hi Alon,

> >

> > I totally agree that the clinical descriptions of false heat

versus

> > deficicncy heat are TCM 101. My concern and this was the part of

this

> > thread that brought up this issue was that some (many?) thought

that

> > false heat was just a different term for deficiency heat.

> [Jason]

> Just so everyone is on the same page...

>

> 1)I Agree here 100%, this misuse does not represent the Chinese

texts that I

> have seen... Although I have heard Western teachers, as well as

Chinese

> teachers, use the term 'false heat' to mean vacuous heat (like it

or not)...

> It is purely a 'verbal' transmissional error that is somewhat

> prevalent...Because of this, western authors have also used this

term

> incorrectly (in writing)... (I AM NOT saying I agree with this)...

Look at

> this entry for Tian Men Dong:

>

> " # Asparagus Root (Tian Men Dong)

> Tuber Asparagi Cochinchinensis

> Common Name: Asparagus Fern Tuber

> Family: Liliaceae

> Energy and Flavor: sweet, bitter and cold

> Organ Meridian Affected: Lung and Kidney

>

> Properties: yin tonic, nutritive, demulcent, expectorant

>

> Indications: This herb is indicated for yin deficiency of the lung

and

> kidney when there are signs of ***false heat*** because of the yin

> deficiency. It is used for lung abscesses and hot sputum that may

contain

> blood and is difficult to expectorate. It moistens the dryness of

yin

> deficiency and lubricates the intestines when there is

constipation due to

> dry intestines. "

>

> Clearly a misuse... but shows that people use this term that way.

That is

> all...

>

> For Steven (et al) - I Don't think anyone on the list has said

that the 2

> terms are synonymous.

>

> 2) All the other information I posted has do with the limited view

of False

> heat (as the real 'false heat true cold'). I.e. That it must come

from

> Excess and that it is acute life-threatening. Nothing to do with

vacuity

> heat... These are 2 separate issues... I Hope that is clear.

>

> -

>

>

> >

> > If someone believes these two terms are synomyns, what is the

> > alternative term for the " false heat " (jia re) that is very

different

> > from " deficicney heat " (xu re)? This was my initial concern and

remains

> > my concern.

> >

> > Steve

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

including

> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual

conference and a

> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It is ludicrous to continually have to

define terms when having a professional discussion.

>>>Todd I have no problem creating the definitions but you have to realize that

when doing that you often see a small part of the term. We can create a new

" professional " TCM lingo as bob calls it, but in doing so you WILL reduce many

terms to standards that have not been so in CM history. It will be easier to

teach no question. But for example, every time I used the term false the meaning

was clear regardless of the choice of the word false. I know you hate

connotative writing but it is another choice

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fortunately, very few of us will ever come across a case of " false

heat "

>>>Again that would be a question stile. One of the Dr is studied with (the same

one bob demon did)diagnosed false heat in out-patients quite often. He did use

this diagnosis in patient with unrooted yang.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Nov 28, 2004, at 6:26 AM, wrote:

 

> Furthermore, I have heard of an acupuncturist in Ohio who dips their

> needles

> in Essential oils... Talk about wild stuff... Has anyone else heard of

> this?

 

Nope, only dipping into homepathic substances.

 

-al.

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

I think Dan Bensky is working on a whole text just on the term wei qi and how it

has been used differently by various CM authors.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

false heat is not

deficient heat

>>>No question, but if one is writing the term connotatively all this discussion

just goes away, since hopefully every one knows the difference between the

clinical description we are talking about. This is basic TCM 101.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This was my initial concern and remains

my concern.

 

>>>>>you cant worry if people do not know the most basic concepts, the

information is clearly available.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That would be a very interesting book indeed.

 

 

On Nov 29, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> I think Dan Bensky is working on a whole text just on the term wei qi

> and how it has been used differently by various CM authors.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone

I am French but I am now living in an English-speking country. All my

books (and little knowledge) is in French. Do you know any website

where I can find good ressources in English, mostly about " Pattern

diagnosis " ?

Thank you

[Guest guest]

A very good educational website for pattern discrimination, diagnosis,

and information is:

www.bluepoppypress.com

 

Good Luck,

 

Ray Rubio

 

On Mar 6, 2005, at 11:41 PM, sifusikes wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Hi everyone

> I am French but I am now living in an English-speking country. All my

> books (and little knowledge) is in French. Do you know any website

> where I can find good ressources in English, mostly about " Pattern

> diagnosis " ?

> Thank you

>

>

>

 

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

> group requires prior permission from the author.

>

> If you are a TCM academic and wish to discuss TCM with other

> academics,

>

>