pattern diagnosis

November 21, 2004

How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief

to the chief complaint in a timely fashion?

>>>>Todd how do you know that any of the patterns provided by any of the other

texts yield good or any results at all? You are assuming that these patterns are

not just more theoretical generalizations.

Alon

November 21, 2004

I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or

palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which

case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually

coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know

others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases,

but the evidence is not convincing to me.

>>>>>That must be the conclusion of anyone that is honest as it is clearly

evident in TCM clinics in the US and China as well

Alon

November 21, 2004

I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not

JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM

is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal

medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed

simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but

to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get

the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen

material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach...

Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might

address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally

always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most

conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could

mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides

the obvious acute emergency conditions)...

-Jason

>

> Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM

>

> pattern diagnosis

>

> I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis

> (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the

> first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in

> treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of

> pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases

> and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one

> in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from

> both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly

> achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern

> diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to

> such generalized treatment.

>

> This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague

> symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well

> defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not

> be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there

> besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves

> are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it

> must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity

> usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate.

> One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the

> blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed?

>

> Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that

> it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica.

> No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what

> about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it

> might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best

> served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind

> heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would

> you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be

> surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau.

>

> How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief

> to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume

> that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any

> duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of

> nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be

> relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about

> prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis

> on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more

> difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western

> medicine particularly can affect prognosis.

>

> So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

> sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or

> palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which

> case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually

> coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know

> others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases,

> but the evidence is not convincing to me.

>

November 21, 2004

>

> Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

> Monday, November 22, 2004 2:31 AM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

> I do not get

> the impression that TCM ignores this aspect.

> >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many

> people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say

> the vast majority do not

> ALON

[Jason]

That is a slightly different slant which BTW I also agree with... How many

people do get cured? And for what diseases? This is important information

that I feel is not discussed enough... It seems that the branch / tip

(symptoms) can usually be adequately addressed as long as the person is

taking the herbs, but to cure the problem (w/o further tx) is another

story... I find this aspect of medicine frustrating. Granted such

conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not expect a

cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything more...

Can they offer cures for such situations?

-Jason

> -

>

> Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM

> RE: pattern diagnosis

>

> I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and

> not

> JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that

> TCM

> is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an

> internal

> medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed

> simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx,

> but

> to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not

> get

> the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen

> material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach...

> Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might

> address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally

> always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most

> conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you

> could

> mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle

> (besides

> the obvious acute emergency conditions)...

>

> -Jason

>

> >

> > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM

> >

> > pattern diagnosis

> >

> > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis

> > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the

> > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in

> > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of

> > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases

> > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one

> > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from

> > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly

> > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern

> > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to

> > such generalized treatment.

> >

> > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague

> > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well

> > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not

> > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there

> > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves

> > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it

> > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity

> > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate.

> > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the

> > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed?

> >

> > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that

> > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica.

> > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what

> > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it

> > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best

> > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind

> > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would

> > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be

> > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau.

> >

> > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief

> > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume

> > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any

> > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of

> > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be

> > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about

> > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis

> > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more

> > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western

> > medicine particularly can affect prognosis.

> >

> > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

> > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or

> > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which

> > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually

> > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know

> > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases,

> > but the evidence is not convincing to me.

> >

November 21, 2004

I have been reading cover to cover The Management of Cancer by Li Peiwen and I

would

consider it the most complete discussion of modern TCM methods in English. It is

an

astounding compilation of 40 years of experiences in a top oncology department.

Solidly

CM it doesn't hesitate to make predictive assumptions about the nature of

pathogens be

they the cancer or chemotherapy agents (described in detail). Relevant to this

discussion I

see that the practitioners there want to stop certain predictive affects on the

body before

they manifest as symptoms. For example, giving herbs before (and after)

chemotherapy.

The problem for me is that many of our diagnosis must show gross symptoms before

treatment. (I guess the pulse masters would dispute that) And then we are

playing catch-

up with the problem. In a way The Management is like the Shan Hun Lun, if this

happens

then expect that this will happen. This approach can only work with the detailed

advice of

practitioners with honest assesments of their extensive clinical experiences. So

while we

look with dirersion at those that equate the use of one Western Pharmaceutical

with one

CM herb or Formula treatment sometime cliches have element of truth. When

someone,

like the authors of this book, tells you that something is predictable over and

over then

one had better listen.

The problem with most of our Pattern treatments is that too often that means

only Zang-

fu or Shan Hun Lun or Wen Bing or a limited number of other parameters. I think

we need

to fully embrace other systems of Patterns that too often are seen in our focus

on Zang-fu

as symptoms.

doug

, " " <@c...>

wrote:

>

> I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and not

> JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that TCM

> is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an internal

> medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed

> simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx, but

> to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not get

> the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen

> material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach...

> Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might

> address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally

> always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most

> conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you could

> mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle (besides

> the obvious acute emergency conditions)...

>

> -Jason

>

> >

November 21, 2004

I have been forced to revisit Jeffery Yuen as my students attend workshops by

him and

those influenced by him. I have a lot of respect for him so that is not under

discussion nor

my ambivilance about applying his methods in the clinic after a series of

weekend classes.

However there are a few ideas that follow this cure/root discussion. I am hoping

that other

experienced practitioners can address some of his concepts that fly againest

TCM.

The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing crisis. Meaning

that TCM is

largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a good thing

because it

releases the toxins. Huo Xiang will just keep the chemotherapy in longer to go

deeper.

The other more intriguing concept is the interplay of yin and yang of the body

in that the

tongue or other signs are a reflection of the reactions of the body to

conditions. In other

words, a red tongue is a response to cold deeper in the body. (the pulse shows

the actual

condition).

hmmm..... Todd? Are these similar concepts as naturapathy?

doug

> >

> > I do not get

> > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect.

> > >>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many

> > people really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say

> > the vast majority do not

> > ALON

> [Jason]

> That is a slightly different slant which BTW I also agree with... How many

> people do get cured? And for what diseases? This is important information

> that I feel is not discussed enough... It seems that the branch / tip

> (symptoms) can usually be adequately addressed as long as the person is

> taking the herbs, but to cure the problem (w/o further tx) is another

> story... I find this aspect of medicine frustrating. Granted such

> conditions are usually chronic cases and one probably should not expect a

> cure... But on the flip side, can Western Medicine offer anything more...

> Can they offer cures for such situations?

>

> -Jason

>

> > -

> >

> > Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM

> > RE: pattern diagnosis

> >

> > I would agree that one must, in many cases address branch symptoms, and

> > not

> > JUST focus on the core imbalance (root pattern)... But I do think that

> > TCM

> > is clear about this. When one consults a 'disease' or 'CC' in an

> > internal

> > medicine book it is my impression that both are usually addressed

> > simultaneously. For example, dan zhi xiao yao san might be a base Rx,

> > but

> > to that, symptomatic based herbs are added to address the tip. I do not

> > get

> > the impression that TCM ignores this aspect. But granted I have seen

> > material in English that does suggest this over-simplified approach...

> > Furthermore, I do agree with you that sometimes Western Medicine might

> > address these branch symptoms quicker and more effectively. I personally

> > always modify formulas to (hopefully) address both, and I find most

> > conditions (at least that I see) can be helped with TCM... Maybe you

> > could

> > mention some conditions that you have seen that TCM cannot handle

> > (besides

> > the obvious acute emergency conditions)...

> >

> > -Jason

> >

> > >

> > > [@c...]

> > > Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:01 AM

> > >

> > > pattern diagnosis

> > >

> > > I was thinking about Bob's repeated admonition to do pattern diagnosis

> > > (assuming it was not a typo). I think many of us advocate that as the

> > > first and last resort. Certainly, all lasting developments in

> > > treating specific illnesses have begun with an understanding of

> > > pattern dx. But Bob wouldn't write books like modern western diseases

> > > and that ilk unless he also believed that the ideal situation was one

> > > in which the physician possessed a detailed knowledge of disease from

> > > both a western and eastern perspective. While one can certainly

> > > achieve some clinical success with the sole recourse of pattern

> > > diagnosis, I believe there are many conditions that will not yield to

> > > such generalized treatment.

> > >

> > > This approach is certainly ideal for patients with numerous vague

> > > symptoms. But for those with a distinct chief complaint or a well

> > > defined syndrome, merely addressing the patterns that one sees may not

> > > be sufficient. One might ask, " how can this be? " What is there

> > > besides patterns. Well, there are the symptoms that by themselves

> > > are branches, such as bleeding. Bleeding is not a pattern, but it

> > > must be stopped. It is rooted in a pattern (heat or qi vacuity

> > > usually). But addressing that root pattern is not often adequate.

> > > One must treat the disease directly. How can the qi that holds the

> > > blood ever be restored while one continues to bleed?

> > >

> > > Now the bleeding is an obvious example to which one would respond that

> > > it could be easily addressed with a good knowledge of materia medica.

> > > No specialized knowledge of disease treatment is necessary. But what

> > > about those more obscure disorders like ITCHY EYES/mu yang? While it

> > > might seem straightforward enough, are you sure you would be best

> > > served by using everyone's favorite fallback, yin qiao san, in a wind

> > > heat pattern. What would be your first choice in a wind cold? Would

> > > you use long dan xie gan tang for a liver fire pattern? You might be

> > > surpised at the options in this chapter in Sionneau.

> > >

> > > How do you know these standard formulas would actually give any relief

> > > to the chief complaint in a timely fashion? We can perhaps assume

> > > that they will achieve some goal in the long term. But do we have any

> > > duty to offer symptom relief immediately. I think the presence of

> > > nagging symptoms interfere with the recovery of health and must be

> > > relieved in order to achieve lasting progress. And what about

> > > prognosis. Without a knowledge of internal medicine and its emphasis

> > > on branch as well as root treatment, not only is symptom relief more

> > > difficult, but prognosis also impeded. A knowledge of western

> > > medicine particularly can affect prognosis.

> > >

> > > So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

> > > sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or

> > > palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which

> > > case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually

> > > coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know

> > > others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases,

> > > but the evidence is not convincing to me.

> > >

November 21, 2004

I think this is such a broad subject that I personally would be

hesitant to make conclusions. A number of points and issues come to my

mind:

1) Chinese medicine has always had bian bing/disease differentiation as

well as bian zheng/pattern differentiation. But disease

differentiation is usually broken down into its inclusive patterns.

2) Much of the necessity of what we can call 'symptomatic' treatment

has to do with the culture we live in. If people are sick as a result

of radical lifestyle choices, or have had multiple surgeries, or are

taking multiple medications, it is more difficult to heal them with

just herbal medicine and acupuncture/moxa. While certainly in the

past many people died from diseases that are now treatable and

diagnosable by Western medicine, it is also probably true that people

generally lived less extreme lifestyles before the modern era and

therefore were easier to treat with more 'natural' approaches.

3) A very broad, flexible and intelligent CM diagnosis can easily

include biomedical and other treatment modalities.

4) There are areas where Chinese medicine clearly can take the lead.

For example, the common cold and garden variety influenza, where the

diagnostic acumen of Shang Han Lun or Wen Bing theories are more likely

to produce treatment protocols to match the changing patterns and

manifestations of these conditions. Western medicine relies too much

on antibiotics and secondarily steroids, which may be useful in very

acute cases, but can weaken and harm the average cold or flu patient.

In our own field, surprisingly few practitioners can actually

differentially diagnose the patterns discussed in the SHL, WB, or Pi

Wei Lun , and therefore tend to give a limited variety of formulas for

respiratory infections. Just the other night, a recent PCOM graduate

told me that Gan mao ling failed to work for a majority of her patients

with colds or flu. I told her that she had to diagnose each case

individually, know the stage of the condition, and treat accordingly.

On Nov 20, 2004, at 11:01 PM, wrote:

>

> So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

> sufficient to treat most illnesses. And in some cases, maintenance or

> palliation of the branch may be the best or only option. In which

> case one not only cannot rely solely on TCM, but must actually

> coordinate with MDs to achieve the optimum clinical success. I know

> others will contend that TCM alone is sufficient in all or most cases,

> but the evidence is not convincing to me.

>

November 21, 2004

>

> []

> Sunday, November 21, 2004 12:07 PM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

> I have been forced to revisit Jeffery Yuen as my students attend workshops

> by him and

> those influenced by him. I have a lot of respect for him so that is not

> under discussion nor

> my ambivilance about applying his methods in the clinic after a series of

> weekend classes.

> However there are a few ideas that follow this cure/root discussion. I am

> hoping that other

> experienced practitioners can address some of his concepts that fly

> againest TCM.

> The first is that the cure will never happen without a healing crisis.

[Jason]

Interesting.. are you saying that J.Yuen says this? This is hard to believe

as such a general statement, because surely we have all seen cures that do

not have this component.

> Meaning that TCM is

> largely suppressive. For example, vomiting after chemotherapy is a good

> thing because it

> releases the toxins. Huo Xiang will just keep the chemotherapy in longer

> to go deeper.

> The other more intriguing concept is the interplay of yin and yang of the

> body in that the

> tongue or other signs are a reflection of the reactions of the body to

> conditions. In other

> words, a red tongue is a response to cold deeper in the body. (the pulse

> shows the actual

> condition).

[Jason]

Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea that

may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM theory

supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say

anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes

little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols...

-

November 21, 2004

These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. So I could

be way off

in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more dynamic

sense of

Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of Cold

wrapping

pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the pathogens can

escape. It

follows the idea that we all have cancers but some get out of control because of

deficiency. Again before this happens, an amount of Cold is generated thus

reflecting on

the tongue when in fact the problem are (heat) pathogens. Or when there is a

Cold

accumulation then heat is generated to disperse it again reflecting on the

tongue. This is

what I mean by his sense of dynamic Yin and Yang.

Anyway, I thought I would bring this up among like minded friends because his

ideas are

pervasive (if not persuasive) and influencing so many students and

practitioners. And it

made me think of it when I believe Alon was expressed sceptisism of TCM cures. I

should

find a Yuen group and report back. To some degree I'm thinking out loud about

where his

ideas resonate with my students and patients.

doug

deficiency , " "

<@c...>

wrote:

>

> [Jason]

> Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea that

> may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM theory

> supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say

> anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes

> little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols...

>

> -

November 21, 2004

>

> Alon Marcus [alonmarcus]

> Monday, November 22, 2004 3:13 AM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

> No i do not think WM can most of the time and is often much more

> dangerous to the patient. TCM is definitely safer most of the time, unless

> one ignores for example high blood sugar and insists of not using modern

> medicine. What we do need however is to admit that what we do most of the

> time is palliative care just as WM does.

[Jason]

Yes... Although, something interesting to me is how the Chinese use the term

'cure' all so often in there research articles. For example, Schizophrenia

(in Flaws's book) will have been said be 'cured.' A M.D., that I treat, saw

this and said that Western Medicine hardly ever uses the term 'cured', and

was perplexed what the Chinese meant by this term especially which such a

disease. Me too... Comments? Bob?

-

November 21, 2004

D,

I am not asking you to defend J.Yuen, but welcome your (as also others)

further ideas along such lines. But the question I have relates to

treatment... This dynamic yin yang (expansion) all sounds nice in theory,

as so much does, but how does he make use of these ideas in treatment. If

we are just talking about acupuncture then I almost discount all of this...

but if he (or others) show some case studies with i.e. herbal application it

will help make things more tangible (since we know at least from a CM

perspective what herbs do). This would help bring things to a tangible

realm and we will have more information to discuss his theories... Any case

studies or further info?

-

>

> []

> Sunday, November 21, 2004 4:54 PM

>

> Re: pattern diagnosis

>

> These are all Jeffery Yuen ideas as I've gotten through my students. So I

> could be way off

> in my descriptions but I don't think so. First off he has a much more

> dynamic sense of

> Cold than we usually ascribe in TCM. His most intriguing idea is of Cold

> wrapping

> pathogens. Once Yang Qi can no longer feed the Cold then the pathogens can

> escape. It

> follows the idea that we all have cancers but some get out of control

> because of

> deficiency. Again before this happens, an amount of Cold is generated thus

> reflecting on

> the tongue when in fact the problem are (heat) pathogens. Or when there is

> a Cold

> accumulation then heat is generated to disperse it again reflecting on the

> tongue. This is

> what I mean by his sense of dynamic Yin and Yang.

> Anyway, I thought I would bring this up among like minded friends because

> his ideas are

> pervasive (if not persuasive) and influencing so many students and

> practitioners. And it

> made me think of it when I believe Alon was expressed sceptisism of TCM

> cures. I should

> find a Yuen group and report back. To some degree I'm thinking out loud

> about where his

> ideas resonate with my students and patients.

> doug

>

> deficiency , " "

> <@c...>

> wrote:

> >

> > [Jason]

> > Are you also saying that J.Yuen says this... again an interesting idea

> that

> > may be correct in some cases, but (as you say) I do not think that CM

> theory

> > supports this... Does he qualify these statements? Does he just say

> > anytime there is a red tongue there is true (deeper) cold... This makes

> > little sense when one thinks about treatment protocols...

> >

> > -

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

November 21, 2004

, " "

wrote:

>

> So in light of all this, I would argue that TCM pattern dx is not

> sufficient to treat most illnesses.

not that western dx is necessary, but TCM disease dx and knowledge of

internal and case studies is desirable; materia medica and formulas

are not enough

And in some cases, maintenance or

> palliation of the branch may be the best or only option.

I suspect this is the case. I can't really say which. Most very hi

BP seems to require meds regardless of OM tx. Have others found

different?

November 21, 2004

Basically as I understand it using the divergents bring pathogens out from the

deeper

levels to the wei level and out of the body. He uses the same paradigm for

acupuncture

and herbs. What I question if this is a return to the classics or just a

convenient parrallel to

Western ideas of peeling the onion.

I'll put together some sort of guide about the herbs he sees doing this.

doug

, " " <@c...>

wrote:

> D,

>

> I am not asking you to defend J.Yuen, but welcome your (as also others)

> further ideas along such lines. But the question I have relates to

> treatment... This dynamic yin yang (expansion) all sounds nice in theory,

> as so much does, but how does he make use of these ideas in treatment. If

> we are just talking about acupuncture then I almost discount all of this...

> but if he (or others) show some case studies with i.e. herbal application it

> will help make things more tangible (since we know at least from a CM

> perspective what herbs do). This would help bring things to a tangible

> realm and we will have more information to discuss his theories... Any case

> studies or further info?

>

> -

>

November 22, 2004

I do not get

the impression that TCM ignores this aspect.

>>>Usually, theoretically, one does both. But the question is how many people

really get cured, i.e. the root problem is corrected. I would say the vast

majority do not

ALON

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Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:58 AM

RE: pattern diagnosis