fused cervical vertabrae

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

 

I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. I feel sorry for

this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, surprise!) it

didn't help.

 

Thanks!

 

Laura

[Guest guest]

heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

> was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.<

 

Yes, I often treat folks with fusions with good success.

 

>who had surgery and (surprise, surprise!) it

didn't help.<

 

If the surgeon is selective in their choice of patient this can be a very

helpful sugery.

 

Doc

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura,

 

I treated a patient both before and after vertebral fusion. Her fusion was done

on the anterior surface of the vertebrae, so there was no conflict with treating

her posterior neck. Her fusion addressed her developing symptoms of urinary

incontinence, and the acupuncture addressed her pain. I used alot of huatojiaji

points on her.

 

Depending on your patient's constitution (and medications), herbs may be very

useful as well.

 

 

 

heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

be helpful after someone has already had their vertebra fused. I

feel sorry for this older lady because (surprise, surprise!) the

surgery didn't help at all.

 

Laura

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back - often

 

 

 

There is a lot acupuncture has to offer, and it often provides great relief

 

Besides acu, I often do cupping to " pull " the circulation back into the

congested tissue

 

 

 

Unfortunately, once the spine has undergone surgery, there is permanent

change to the tissues and biomechanics

 

Although the treatment can provide great relief, often the irritation will

gradually return simply because of the permanent post-surgical changes

 

That is why there is a medical diagnosis for " failed back surgical syndrome "

 

 

 

I have a patient right now

 

Over the last 25 years he has had foraminotomy, injections, laminectomy,

fusion, and nerve root ablations to his neck

 

I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes home and works in his

shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck muscles causes a

recurrence of tension and pain

 

 

 

I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was hemipelegic on the right -

to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill the muscle contracture

 

His arm hung flaccid at his side

 

With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand for a time, but he never

followed through with care long enough to get a respone

 

He chose instead to follow up with another MD who wanted to try another

surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves...

 

 

 

Hope that helps

 

doug

 

 

 

_____

 

heylaurag [heylaurag]

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM

Chinese Medicine

fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. I feel sorry for

this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise, surprise!) it

didn't help.

 

Thanks!

 

Laura

[Guest guest]

Doug

When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you

use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What

herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the

last - how old thew patients? I am interested because

my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works

very short time, then pain returns. But my patients

usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment?

 

Yuri

 

--- Doug Briggs <docacu wrote:

 

>

> I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back -

> often

 

>

> I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes

> home and works in his

> shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck

> muscles causes a

> recurrence of tension and pain

>

>

>

> I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was

> hemipelegic on the right -

> to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill

> the muscle contracture

>

> His arm hung flaccid at his side

>

> With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand

> for a time, but he never

> followed through with care long enough to get a

> respone

>

> He chose instead to follow up with another MD who

> wanted to try another

> surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves...

>

>

>

> Hope that helps

>

> doug

>

>

>

> _____

>

> heylaurag [heylaurag]

> Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if

> acupuncture can

> help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.

> I feel sorry for

> this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise,

> surprise!) it

> didn't help.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Laura

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

As you said, these patients are usually over 65

 

Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is obviously

complicated by the surgeries

 

 

 

I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and cupping with

stroking

 

They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours to several

days

 

 

 

Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more active, and

overexert - increasing the irritation

 

 

 

Good luck

 

 

 

Doug

 

 

 

_____

 

leah tynkova [leahhome]

Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM

Chinese Medicine

RE: fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

 

 

Doug

When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you

use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What

herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the

last - how old thew patients? I am interested because

my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works

very short time, then pain returns. But my patients

usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment?

 

Yuri

 

--- Doug Briggs <docacu wrote:

 

>

> I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back -

> often

 

> y will

> I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes

> home and works in his

> shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck

> muscles causes a

> recurrence of tension and pain

>

>

>

> I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was

> hemipelegic on the right -

> to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill

> the muscle contracture

>

> His arm hung flaccid at his side

>

> With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand

> for a time, but he never

> followed through with care long enough to get a

> respone

>

> He chose instead to follow up with another MD who

> wanted to try another

> surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves...

>

>

>

> Hope that helps

>

> doug

>

>

>

> _____

>

> heylaurag [heylaurag]

> Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if

> acupuncture can

> help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.

> I feel sorry for

> this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise,

> surprise!) it

> didn't help.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Laura

[Guest guest]

> heylaurag:

> was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

> help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.<

>

>

 

Can.

 

I usually ignore the fusion and work remotely.

 

Case in point:

Man, Black Belt type, 2 chest vertebrae apposed to Ren 17 fused

surgically. Symptoms mimicking HT problems, man tough as a horse and as

healthy

but emotionally restrained, this is Mu for PC; with misgivings of what can

be the heck wrong

with him.

 

" Don't laugh anymore " , says he.

 

Found a tight and obligingly grainy left GB 26, and went " Aha! A Dai tied up

in

knots, have we? "

 

Went even further away to a truly tender left GB 41, and a GB 40 on

contralateral leg,

painful up the gazoo, darn!

 

Got around the problem of which is the primary point by 'workin' the one and

the other,

contra GB 40 gave a major release.

 

Sequence:

Right GB 40 released left GB 41

Left GB 41 released left GB 26

Left GB 26 released Ren 17

Ren 17 released the pain at the fused vertebrae.

Pain at the fused vertebra released the Black Belter's woes no end.

 

Man laughed for no reason for 10 minutes, tears down the cheeks and all.

 

Ceased, became staid again, went out the door, healed.

 

In 45 minutes.

 

Neat.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr. Keikobad,

 

I would be interested in knowing whether the treatments you describe

" releases " the spine/verterbrae so that it is flexible again. I have

noticed that in many people (even those who are very active yoga

enthusiasts) have very hard and inflexible spines which appear to be

obstructing energy flow and causeing downstream health problems.

 

Recently, I was doing some bodywork on a friend of mine and found that

her lower spine was very tight and hard. I suggested to her that she

might want to see someone who could " open up " the spine otherwise

problems may develop in the associated areas in her body (e.g.

uterus). She related to me that she already had an operation earlier

this year. Still she understands that this is something that needs to

be taken care of.

 

It would seem that unless the spinal area is freed of blockages (maybe

an impossibility for some people) that there is a potential for the

stagnant qi and resulting stagnant blood to cause long term, chronic -

and potentially serious - problems to continue to arise.

 

Do you, or anyone else, have any comments on the ability of

acupuncture to bring flexibility to the spine? Perhaps you have

exercises that you suggest to your patients that reinforce the work

that you are doing. I know that in certain tuina/qigong practices

(e.g. Chan Mi Qigong), the spine is considered primary.

 

Thanks for any comments.

 

Regards,

Rich

 

Chinese Medicine , " homi kaikobad "

<aryaone@e...> wrote:

> > heylaurag:

> > was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

> > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.<

> >

> >

>

> Can.

>

> I usually ignore the fusion and work remotely.

>

> Case in point:

> Man, Black Belt type, 2 chest vertebrae apposed to Ren 17 fused

> surgically. Symptoms mimicking HT problems, man tough as a horse and as

> healthy

> but emotionally restrained, this is Mu for PC; with misgivings of

what can

> be the heck wrong

> with him.

>

> " Don't laugh anymore " , says he.

>

> Found a tight and obligingly grainy left GB 26, and went " Aha! A Dai

tied up

> in

> knots, have we? "

>

> Went even further away to a truly tender left GB 41, and a GB 40 on

> contralateral leg,

> painful up the gazoo, darn!

>

> Got around the problem of which is the primary point by 'workin' the

one and

> the other,

> contra GB 40 gave a major release.

>

> Sequence:

> Right GB 40 released left GB 41

> Left GB 41 released left GB 26

> Left GB 26 released Ren 17

> Ren 17 released the pain at the fused vertebrae.

> Pain at the fused vertebra released the Black Belter's woes no end.

>

> Man laughed for no reason for 10 minutes, tears down the cheeks and all.

>

> Ceased, became staid again, went out the door, healed.

>

> In 45 minutes.

>

> Neat.

>

> Dr. Holmes Keikobad

> MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

> www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

> NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

By and large the mobility increases although that is not my priority. I

work so the reflex with allied symptomolgy is released and leave it at that.

 

To me reflex is released when balance has returned.

 

Pulses settle, pain disappears, disability ameliorates, tongue regains color

shape and contour, hara behaves.

 

All these can be as they are only if the obstruction is gone.

 

Not to say that your Q is though provoking.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

" Rich " <rfinkelstein

>

> Hi Dr. Keikobad,

>

> I would be interested in knowing whether the treatments you describe

> " releases " the spine/verterbrae so that it is flexible again. I have

> noticed that in many people (even those who are very active yoga

> enthusiasts) have very hard and inflexible spines which appear to be

> obstructing energy flow and causeing downstream health problems.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr. Keikobad,

>

> All these can be as they are only if the obstruction is gone.

>

> Not to say that your Q is though provoking.

 

It appears to me - and I am open to the possibility - that it is

possible to " release " (or remove blockages) in the verterbrae, by

releasing the obstructions " downstream " . That is, it is not

necessarily a requirement to work directly on the spine if it can be

released in other ways.

 

However, it is my experience that the blockages downstream (channels,

meridians, muscles, etc.) are caused by primary blockages in spine

that were either inherited or formed during one's life.

 

So yesterday, I did bodywork on three people (all of whom happen to be

Yoga instructors) and noted that all had very hard spines. I was able

to give " relief " to the people by releasing energetic and physical

obstructions in their bodies, I knew that it was going to be only

temporary because the primary conduit in the body - the spine - was

still very hard and stagnant. To me this is a primary indicator. They

themselves were able to feel the stagnation in their spine once the

rest of their body was loose.

 

I did " massage " the spine to try to bring some energy and softness to

the hard areas but I had to work a very long time. I then gave them

some ideas of some simple qigong/spine exercises they could do to help

the process along.

 

I agree with you that the body can tell its story in many ways and

through many vehicles - e.g. the Hara, the pulse, the tongue - but

still I cannot get past the idea that the spine is also telling its

story. If it is hard, and if it appears the stagnation and blockages

still exist and the body, then this tells me that the body is still

not free of blockages that can cause disease, and energy is still not

flowing freely. In some way, the body is still not " healthy " and while

it may be experiencing temporary relief (like a dead pond that has

been cleared of decaying matter), the problems are likely to occur

again because cleansing energy is still not moving through the body. I

do not think a pond can be considered alive until the river is flowing

through it.

 

Any additional thoughts, comments, or experiences is very much

appreciated.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

there are many things we can do to reduce pain, restore flow, etc

but after surgery such as fusion - there is a PERMANENT change in the quality of

the tissues and the function of the joints

even with decreased pain and increased mobility, it is impossible to return to

the pre-injry state

even after successful treatment - these patients may return with classic " bi "

syndromes when exposed to cold or damp

 

releif of pain is not always the same as healing

 

Doug

 

-------------- Original message --------------

 

 

Hi Dr. Keikobad,

>

> All these can be as they are only if the obstruction is gone.

>

> Not to say that your Q is though provoking.

 

It appears to me - and I am open to the possibility - that it is

possible to " release " (or remove blockages) in the verterbrae, by

releasing the obstructions " downstream " . That is, it is not

necessarily a requirement to work directly on the spine if it can be

released in other ways.

 

However, it is my experience that the blockages downstream (channels,

meridians, muscles, etc.) are caused by primary blockages in spine

that were either inherited or formed during one's life.

 

So yesterday, I did bodywork on three people (all of whom happen to be

Yoga instructors) and noted that all had very hard spines. I was able

to give " relief " to the people by releasing energetic and physical

obstructions in their bodies, I knew that it was going to be only

temporary because the primary conduit in the body - the spine - was

still very hard and stagnant. To me this is a primary indicator. They

themselves were able to feel the stagnation in their spine once the

rest of their body was loose.

 

I did " massage " the spine to try to bring some energy and softness to

the hard areas but I had to work a very long time. I then gave them

some ideas of some simple qigong/spine exercises they could do to help

the process along.

 

I agree with you that the body can tell its story in many ways and

through many vehicles - e.g. the Hara, the pulse, the tongue - but

still I cannot get past the idea that the spine is also telling its

story. If it is hard, and if it appears the stagnation and blockages

still exist and the body, then this tells me that the body is still

not free of blockages that can cause disease, and energy is still not

flowing freely. In some way, the body is still not " healthy " and while

it may be experiencing temporary relief (like a dead pond that has

been cleared of decaying matter), the problems are likely to occur

again because cleansing energy is still not moving through the body. I

do not think a pond can be considered alive until the river is flowing

through it.

 

Any additional thoughts, comments, or experiences is very much

appreciated.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug et al,

 

> there are many things we can do to reduce pain, restore flow, etc

> but after surgery such as fusion - there is a PERMANENT change in

the quality of the tissues and the function of the joints

> even with decreased pain and increased mobility, it is impossible to

return to the pre-injry state

> even after successful treatment - these patients may return with

classic " bi " syndromes when exposed to cold or damp

>

> releif of pain is not always the same as healing

>

 

Since I have only very limited experiences with problems created by

surgery, I can only make some very generalized observations. AS I see

it, certain surgerical problems may be reversable just like certain

injuries may be reversable. The kind of tuina/qigong treatment

techniques that I have seen used are able to " break up " damaged areas

so that the body can restore itself. To what extent this can work when

there is major damage caused by surgery is beyond my experiences. For

example, there is little that any treatment can do when there are

screws and other odd things in the bones.

 

But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly

blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold

qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically

everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is

whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or

acupuncture alone. It appears that chronic problems persist until

these blockages are dissolved - one way or another. I would be very

interested in personal experiences as well as what students are taught

in TCM schools concerning these type of problems - either in China or

elsewhere. Is this issue addressed, is it ignored, or is it considered

unimportant. I know that the tuina teachers that I have talked to all

consider this area very important if not primary.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even better than

Tuina, I believe.

 

I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the spine

for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the vertebrae and

the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the needle causing the

spine to re-align itself. Very effective, although fire needles may not be

an option in the west. I actually had it done on myself at C4, 5 and 6. It

had instant results, allowing my neck more movement although the tissue was

swollen for a number of days because of the heated needle.

 

The question of blockages which has long been discussed on this thread is

too shallow. Acupuncture is by far superior to other forms of therapy and

herbs also. I think we need to go down into a deeper level and involve other

true forms of TCM rather than the constant discussion of Tuina, which by

itself it not truly effective. I had Tuina by a experienced blind masseur

for 3 times a week for 4 months. It felt wonderful but didn't cure the

problem. I believe that acupuncture can cure that problem aswell as the use

of herbs.

 

I know some members will be upset by my comments, but I feel I have to set

the record straight.

 

Kind regards

 

Attilio

 

 

 

Traditional Practitioner

attiliodalberto

tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

www.attiliodalberto.com

 

<http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ... Want a

signature like this?

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

to your address book...

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

18 October 2004 00:32

Chinese Medicine

Re: fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly

blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury, inherited " cold

qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically

everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is

whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs or

acupuncture alone.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

When you say " fire needles " are you saying to just heat the needle up

before inserting it? Would you use moxa to heat it, or just a

lighter? I know this may not be appropriate technique in the West,

but I'd like to know about it.

 

Also, I didn't quite understand your explanation of how the needle is

inserted and twisted. Do you put it into the Du, or into the

Huatoujiaji points? And how is the twisting done? I've heard of

inserting the needle, pulling it almost all the way out, then

inserting it in another direction and repeating until you've gone in

every direction. Is that what you are saying?

 

Also, have you seen this work in someone who already had the surgery

to have her spine fused?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even

better than

> Tuina, I believe.

>

> I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the

spine

> for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the

vertebrae and

> the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the needle

causing the

> spine to re-align itself. Very effective, although fire needles may

not be

> an option in the west. I actually had it done on myself at C4, 5

and 6. It

> had instant results, allowing my neck more movement although the

tissue was

> swollen for a number of days because of the heated needle.

>

> The question of blockages which has long been discussed on this

thread is

> too shallow. Acupuncture is by far superior to other forms of

therapy and

> herbs also. I think we need to go down into a deeper level and

involve other

> true forms of TCM rather than the constant discussion of Tuina,

which by

> itself it not truly effective. I had Tuina by a experienced blind

masseur

> for 3 times a week for 4 months. It felt wonderful but didn't cure

the

> problem. I believe that acupuncture can cure that problem aswell as

the use

> of herbs.

>

> I know some members will be upset by my comments, but I feel I have

to set

> the record straight.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

> Traditional Practitioner

> attiliodalberto

> tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ...

Want a

> signature like this?

> <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?

u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

> to your address book...

>

>

> Rich [rfinkelstein@a...]

> 18 October 2004 00:32

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

> But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly

> blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury,

inherited " cold

> qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically

> everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is

> whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs

or

> acupuncture alone.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

 

What points would you hook up for electrical stim? UB 10 and just

below the area of pain? The Du? Huatoujiaji?

 

She is swollen all around her neck. So I am a little nervous about

treating directing into the area.

 

Do you cup the UB channel or closer to the spine?

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Doug Briggs "

<docacu@c...> wrote:

>

> As you said, these patients are usually over 65

>

> Their bodies tend to heal more slowly anyway, and this is obviously

> complicated by the surgeries

>

>

>

> I usually use needle with electric stim, TDP diathermy, and cupping

with

> stroking

>

> They will usually report alleviation of pain from several hours to

several

> days

>

>

>

> Sometimes when they feel better, they will go out and be more

active, and

> overexert - increasing the irritation

>

>

>

> Good luck

>

>

>

> Doug

>

>

>

> _____

>

> leah tynkova [leahhome]

> Friday, October 15, 2004 2:10 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> RE: fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

>

>

> Doug

> When you work on patients with spinal fusion do you

> use electro? or moxa? what points specifically? What

> herbs and formula, if you usually use them. And the

> last - how old thew patients? I am interested because

> my experience usually is not optimistic. Acu works

> very short time, then pain returns. But my patients

> usually old, over 65. How often do you make treatment?

>

> Yuri

>

> --- Doug Briggs <docacu@c...> wrote:

>

> >

> > I work with post spinal fusion - neck and low back -

> > often

>

> > y will

> > I can bring great relief with Acu - but when he goes

> > home and works in his

> > shop - the pressure of leaning forward on his neck

> > muscles causes a

> > recurrence of tension and pain

> >

> >

> >

> > I had a gentleman who suffered a stroke - he was

> > hemipelegic on the right -

> > to break the spasm, his MD injected botulin to kill

> > the muscle contracture

> >

> > His arm hung flaccid at his side

> >

> > With acu we were able to return feeling to his hand

> > for a time, but he never

> > followed through with care long enough to get a

> > respone

> >

> > He chose instead to follow up with another MD who

> > wanted to try another

> > surgical procedure to regenerate the dead nerves...

> >

> >

> >

> > Hope that helps

> >

> > doug

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > heylaurag [heylaurag@h...]

> > Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:56 PM

> > Chinese Medicine

> > fused cervical vertabrae

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Everyone,

> >

> > I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if

> > acupuncture can

> > help someone who already had their vertabrae fused.

> > I feel sorry for

> > this nice older woman who had surgery and (surprise,

> > surprise!) it

> > didn't help.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Laura

[Guest guest]

heylaurag wrote:

>

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I was wondering if anyone has experience to know if acupuncture can

> help someone who already had their vertabrae fused. I feel sorry for

 

Hi Laura!

 

In any pain situation treatments will provide temporary relief, and

herbs according to differentiation will provide more lasting relief, or

at least relief sustainable between treatments.

 

Usually this hasn't been good enough for the patients I have had in this

category and they went on to Western doctors for the hard drugs.

 

I think my $25 fee vs. the $20 co-pay for the Western guys was a factor

as well.

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura,

 

Fire needling is implemented using standard needles and special 'fire'

needles, designed just for that. The needle is heated using a naked flame.

 

Yes, the fire needle is inserted into the Jiaji points and then twisted one

way and the person pushed the other way. Difficult to explain, better to see

it in real life action, but not the same method you suggest of pulling

almost out and then realigning it in every direction.

 

I've seen people you have had fused vertebrae treated using fire needles

with excellent results. Surgery was not needed after a course of fire

needles.

 

It doesn't hurt that much, alot less than you'd think having a hot needle

plunged into your skin. Although you will smell a small amount of burning

body hair and skin.

 

 

 

Traditional Practitioner

attiliodalberto

tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

www.attiliodalberto.com

 

<http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ... Want a

signature like this?

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

to your address book...

 

 

heylaurag [heylaurag]

18 October 2004 01:46

Chinese Medicine

Re: fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

When you say " fire needles " are you saying to just heat the needle up

before inserting it? Would you use moxa to heat it, or just a

lighter? I know this may not be appropriate technique in the West,

but I'd like to know about it.

 

Also, I didn't quite understand your explanation of how the needle is

inserted and twisted. Do you put it into the Du, or into the

Huatoujiaji points? And how is the twisting done? I've heard of

inserting the needle, pulling it almost all the way out, then

inserting it in another direction and repeating until you've gone in

every direction. Is that what you are saying?

 

Also, have you seen this work in someone who already had the surgery

to have her spine fused?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Rich,

>

> Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even

better than

> Tuina, I believe.

>

> I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the

spine

> for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the

vertebrae and

> the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the needle

causing the

> spine to re-align itself. Very effective, although fire needles may

not be

> an option in the west. I actually had it done on myself at C4, 5

and 6. It

> had instant results, allowing my neck more movement although the

tissue was

> swollen for a number of days because of the heated needle.

>

> The question of blockages which has long been discussed on this

thread is

> too shallow. Acupuncture is by far superior to other forms of

therapy and

> herbs also. I think we need to go down into a deeper level and

involve other

> true forms of TCM rather than the constant discussion of Tuina,

which by

> itself it not truly effective. I had Tuina by a experienced blind

masseur

> for 3 times a week for 4 months. It felt wonderful but didn't cure

the

> problem. I believe that acupuncture can cure that problem aswell as

the use

> of herbs.

>

> I know some members will be upset by my comments, but I feel I have

to set

> the record straight.

>

> Kind regards

>

> Attilio

>

>

>

> Traditional Practitioner

> attiliodalberto

> tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ...

Want a

> signature like this?

> <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?

u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

> to your address book...

>

>

> Rich [rfinkelstein@a...]

> 18 October 2004 00:32

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

> But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly

> blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury,

inherited " cold

> qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically

> everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring is

> whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with herbs

or

> acupuncture alone.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

Thanks for jumping in with your comments. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

>

> Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even

>better than Tuina, I believe.

 

Yes, I agree. I think all " medicine " is treating blockages in one way

or another. Either they are creating or increasing " flow " (by removing

blockages or introducing qi), or they are creating blockages in order

to suppress flow (i.e. suppress symptoms) or slow down the flow of qi.

In either case, I believe all medicine of all cultures and types

essentially works in the same way.

 

Whether acupunture or herbs is better than tuina, is probably based

upon one's own experiences. First of all, I prefer tuina combined with

medical qigong because I have found that bodywork at the physical

level without the " clearing " aspect of medical qigong, leaves too much

" residual " negative energy in the body that needs to be " cleaned out " .

This was has been made clear to me many times, most recently with a

friend who was having a difficult time breathing.

 

I have probably more than three dozen friends and acquaintences who

have previously tried acupuncture and herbs on a variety of chronic

ailments who are now using tuina/qigong with success. If you were ask

each one of them which is better, they would choose the tuina/qigong

model. So people's preferences are based upon their own individual

experiences and preferences. For me, it is difficult to say which is

" best " , though each has its strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Tui

na/qigong for its simplicity and the ability for anyone to do it on

themselves as a health maintenance/preventative practice.

 

> I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the

>spine for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the

>vertebrae and the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the

>needle causing the spine to re-align itself. Very effective,

>although fire needles may not be an option in the west.

 

Tom Tam, who is schooled in all of these modalities writes in his book

" Tom Tam Healing System " :

 

" Acupuncture is easy and effective but sometimes the blockage is

large, or the tissues are already stuck against the bone and are

calcified, fibrous, or made up of scar tissue. In this case the needle

will have difficulty opening up the blockage. This is one reason why

acupunture doesn't always work. Ancient traditional acupunture had a

method called the nine needles technique, but this nine-needle

technique was lost in China. This approach uses the needles of

different shapes and sizes. ... The needle that is commonly used is a

thin needle, which has a reduced length. Many times when a blockage is

too large and the needle is too small, positive results then are low.

In America, it is nearly impossible to find anyone that would use the

other types of the nine-needle method for stimulation. "

 

He goes on to say:

 

" My healing system is developed from Tui Na. Tui Na is the use of

one's hands to connect with the patient. In this connection of touch,

I find the blockages, which relate with the organs and the cause of

the Chi imbalance. ... With Tui Na therapy, it is easy to find the

blockage and it has a high success rate in diagnosing problems. ...

When people come to see me for a healing, many of them have had

problems for a long time. Long term blockages are big or deep. With

long term blockages we must use Tui Na a deep technique to open them.

Another technique used to open long term blockages is the hook needle

and fire needle. The hook needle and fire needle are from the nine

needle techniques. These techniques need special training and a

license as an acupunturist. Tui Na is easy to learn and easy to

practice. It prevents disease and increases longevity. Tui Na is the

best technique. In my philosophjy, when the Chi in body is free to

circulate, then there is health. "

 

Tom Tam does discuss hooks and fire needles as your suggested in your

posting, but he also notes that this kind of treatment may be rare in

the U.S. I do not know if this is true or not. I have never seen

anyone practice it. The questions then become:

 

1) Is Tom Tam correct in suggesting that nine-needles techniques are

useful (or even required) to treat deep blockages that one might find

in the body - including the spine? This is apparently how your

cervical area was treated.

 

2) If he is correct, are TCM students being trained in this technique

and is it available here in the U.S?

 

3) If not, what is the alternative since the blockage (stagnation)

must be dealt with in order to bring the client/patient to good

health? Is it chiropractic work? Tui Na/Qigong? Rolfing? Does one have

to go to China for this type of acupuncture treatment? The primary

question is how does one treat the deep blockages that Tom Tam refers

to and I have observed so many times that are associated with chronic

illnesses.

 

The issue that I am exploring is how does the typcial, TCM trained

student (whether the training is in acupuncture, herbals, or tui

na/qigong) deal with the issue. I know how tuina/qigong deals with it.

You posting has introduced me to fire needles and nine-needles

techniques (which I had preciously been unaware of) but is this

treatment available in the U.S. and elsewhere outside of China? What

does a patient do if nine-needles is not available?

 

 

Thanks for any responses,

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Sorry, i should of pointed out that the fire needle on the fused

vertebrae was between L1-S1, whilst the fire needling, twisiting and

pushing method was on the cervical area of the spine.

 

Attilio

 

Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> Hi Laura,

>

> Fire needling is implemented using standard needles and

special 'fire'

> needles, designed just for that. The needle is heated using a

naked flame.

>

> Yes, the fire needle is inserted into the Jiaji points and then

twisted one

> way and the person pushed the other way. Difficult to explain,

better to see

> it in real life action, but not the same method you suggest of

pulling

> almost out and then realigning it in every direction.

>

> I've seen people you have had fused vertebrae treated using fire

needles

> with excellent results. Surgery was not needed after a course of

fire

> needles.

>

> It doesn't hurt that much, alot less than you'd think having a hot

needle

> plunged into your skin. Although you will smell a small amount of

burning

> body hair and skin.

>

>

>

> Traditional Practitioner

> attiliodalberto

> tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

> www.attiliodalberto.com

>

> <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ...

Want a

> signature like this?

> <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?

u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

> to your address book...

>

>

> heylaurag [heylaurag@h...]

> 18 October 2004 01:46

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: fused cervical vertabrae

>

>

>

>

> Hi Attilio,

>

> When you say " fire needles " are you saying to just heat the needle

up

> before inserting it? Would you use moxa to heat it, or just a

> lighter? I know this may not be appropriate technique in the

West,

> but I'd like to know about it.

>

> Also, I didn't quite understand your explanation of how the needle

is

> inserted and twisted. Do you put it into the Du, or into the

> Huatoujiaji points? And how is the twisting done? I've heard of

> inserting the needle, pulling it almost all the way out, then

> inserting it in another direction and repeating until you've gone

in

> every direction. Is that what you are saying?

>

> Also, have you seen this work in someone who already had the

surgery

> to have her spine fused?

>

> Thanks for your thoughts.

>

> Laura

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Attilio

> D'Alberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote:

> > Hi Rich,

> >

> > Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even

> better than

> > Tuina, I believe.

> >

> > I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into

the

> spine

> > for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the

> vertebrae and

> > the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the needle

> causing the

> > spine to re-align itself. Very effective, although fire needles

may

> not be

> > an option in the west. I actually had it done on myself at C4, 5

> and 6. It

> > had instant results, allowing my neck more movement although the

> tissue was

> > swollen for a number of days because of the heated needle.

> >

> > The question of blockages which has long been discussed on this

> thread is

> > too shallow. Acupuncture is by far superior to other forms of

> therapy and

> > herbs also. I think we need to go down into a deeper level and

> involve other

> > true forms of TCM rather than the constant discussion of Tuina,

> which by

> > itself it not truly effective. I had Tuina by a experienced

blind

> masseur

> > for 3 times a week for 4 months. It felt wonderful but didn't

cure

> the

> > problem. I believe that acupuncture can cure that problem aswell

as

> the use

> > of herbs.

> >

> > I know some members will be upset by my comments, but I feel I

have

> to set

> > the record straight.

> >

> > Kind regards

> >

> > Attilio

> >

> >

> >

> > Traditional Practitioner

> > attiliodalberto

> > tel: +44 (0) 208 658 5544

> > www.attiliodalberto.com

> >

> > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Signature powered by Plaxo ...

> Want a

> > signature like this?

> > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?

> u=17180106480 & v0=457290 & k0=146111470> Add me

> > to your address book...

> >

> >

> > Rich [rfinkelstein@a...]

> > 18 October 2004 00:32

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Re: fused cervical vertabrae

> >

> >

> > But there are also situations where the spine is " fused " or badly

> > blocked, due to natural causes, e.g., stress, injury,

> inherited " cold

> > qi " , etc. This is so common, that in my experiences practically

> > everyone has it to some degree. The question that I am exploring

is

> > whether it is possible to treat these kind of blockages with

herbs

> or

> > acupuncture alone.

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

 

No I don't think all medicine is to do with blockages at all, this is a

narrow way of TCM thinking. I think the correct and more appropriate term

you should use is balance not blockage. As for Tuina versus acupuncture,

well...Didn't acupuncture rise out of Tuina or acupressure? If so, then why

did it develop? Not because people enjoyed sticking metal objects into

others but rather because its more effective. As I said before, having just

had a large course of Tuina I found its treatment effect was short lived. A

friend of mine, a Tuina/massage expert also have a large amount of Tuina

from a experienced and respected masseur for a long term back problem. It

was not effective. Therefore, I still agree that acupuncture and herbs are

superior to Tuina and acupressure.

 

In my TCM degree, we were taught the 9 needles and when to use them. So I

disagree with Tom Tam that it is a lost field. I believe that many of the 9

needles are brutal and impractical in today's world. Also modern WM surgical

techniques and sterilisation requirements have contributed to the declined

use of some of the 9 needles. You can still but them, in framed sets in

China.

 

I'm sure you can but the fire needles from a supplier in your area. Although

you may have to check how your insurance will cover it.

 

Attilio

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

18 October 2004 15:05

Chinese Medicine

Re: fused cervical vertabrae

 

Hi Attilio,

 

Thanks for jumping in with your comments. Here are some of my thoughts:

 

>

> Yes, of course acupuncture and herbs can treat blockages, even

>better than Tuina, I believe.

 

Yes, I agree. I think all " medicine " is treating blockages in one way

or another. Either they are creating or increasing " flow " (by removing

blockages or introducing qi), or they are creating blockages in order

to suppress flow (i.e. suppress symptoms) or slow down the flow of qi.

In either case, I believe all medicine of all cultures and types

essentially works in the same way.

 

Whether acupunture or herbs is better than tuina, is probably based

upon one's own experiences. First of all, I prefer tuina combined with

medical qigong because I have found that bodywork at the physical

level without the " clearing " aspect of medical qigong, leaves too much

" residual " negative energy in the body that needs to be " cleaned out " .

This was has been made clear to me many times, most recently with a

friend who was having a difficult time breathing.

 

I have probably more than three dozen friends and acquaintences who

have previously tried acupuncture and herbs on a variety of chronic

ailments who are now using tuina/qigong with success. If you were ask

each one of them which is better, they would choose the tuina/qigong

model. So people's preferences are based upon their own individual

experiences and preferences. For me, it is difficult to say which is

" best " , though each has its strengths and weaknesses. I prefer Tui

na/qigong for its simplicity and the ability for anyone to do it on

themselves as a health maintenance/preventative practice.

 

> I personally saw the use of fire needles inserted directly into the

>spine for various spinal disorders. The needle is inserted into the

>vertebrae and the then twisted around the needle whilst rotating the

>needle causing the spine to re-align itself. Very effective,

>although fire needles may not be an option in the west.

 

Tom Tam, who is schooled in all of these modalities writes in his book

" Tom Tam Healing System " :

 

" Acupuncture is easy and effective but sometimes the blockage is

large, or the tissues are already stuck against the bone and are

calcified, fibrous, or made up of scar tissue. In this case the needle

will have difficulty opening up the blockage. This is one reason why

acupunture doesn't always work. Ancient traditional acupunture had a

method called the nine needles technique, but this nine-needle

technique was lost in China. This approach uses the needles of

different shapes and sizes. ... The needle that is commonly used is a

thin needle, which has a reduced length. Many times when a blockage is

too large and the needle is too small, positive results then are low.

In America, it is nearly impossible to find anyone that would use the

other types of the nine-needle method for stimulation. "

 

He goes on to say:

 

" My healing system is developed from Tui Na. Tui Na is the use of

one's hands to connect with the patient. In this connection of touch,

I find the blockages, which relate with the organs and the cause of

the Chi imbalance. ... With Tui Na therapy, it is easy to find the

blockage and it has a high success rate in diagnosing problems. ...

When people come to see me for a healing, many of them have had

problems for a long time. Long term blockages are big or deep. With

long term blockages we must use Tui Na a deep technique to open them.

Another technique used to open long term blockages is the hook needle

and fire needle. The hook needle and fire needle are from the nine

needle techniques. These techniques need special training and a

license as an acupunturist. Tui Na is easy to learn and easy to

practice. It prevents disease and increases longevity. Tui Na is the

best technique. In my philosophjy, when the Chi in body is free to

circulate, then there is health. "

 

Tom Tam does discuss hooks and fire needles as your suggested in your

posting, but he also notes that this kind of treatment may be rare in

the U.S. I do not know if this is true or not. I have never seen

anyone practice it. The questions then become:

 

1) Is Tom Tam correct in suggesting that nine-needles techniques are

useful (or even required) to treat deep blockages that one might find

in the body - including the spine? This is apparently how your

cervical area was treated.

 

2) If he is correct, are TCM students being trained in this technique

and is it available here in the U.S?

 

3) If not, what is the alternative since the blockage (stagnation)

must be dealt with in order to bring the client/patient to good

health? Is it chiropractic work? Tui Na/Qigong? Rolfing? Does one have

to go to China for this type of acupuncture treatment? The primary

question is how does one treat the deep blockages that Tom Tam refers

to and I have observed so many times that are associated with chronic

illnesses.

 

The issue that I am exploring is how does the typcial, TCM trained

student (whether the training is in acupuncture, herbals, or tui

na/qigong) deal with the issue. I know how tuina/qigong deals with it.

You posting has introduced me to fire needles and nine-needles

techniques (which I had preciously been unaware of) but is this

treatment available in the U.S. and elsewhere outside of China? What

does a patient do if nine-needles is not available?

 

 

Thanks for any responses,

 

Regards,

Rich

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Where qi goes, structure follows.

Where structure goes, qi may not follow.

 

Thus one tries to infuse free flow of qi, which has definite pathway,

incline, horary disposition.

 

Qi came first, structure later.

Qi will leave first, structure will follow.

 

If the qi is " passed " though, and symmetry resolved, the body will treat

the fused vertebrae much like a single bone.

 

One way of re-establishing qi pathway is by local work, and it ought to be

done

if there is scarring, heavy stagnation and debris.

 

Another way is to have the qi itself find it's own way, which it does know

how to do, having learned it from the best.

 

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - 15 CEUS by video.

NCCAOM reviewed. Approved in CA & most states.

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone. Q re osteoporosis / osteopenia and CM.

Anybody willing to share case studies? Anybody have

links or sources to the subject. Here are a few I

found through a quick search:

Thanks for any help,

Hugo

 

 

http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/Health-problems/Osteoporosis-researchAltThe\

rapies.htm#Traditional

 

 

http://www.internethealthlibrary.com/Therapies/ChineseHerbalMedicine-Research.ht\

m

 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HKP/is_1_30/ai_88700826

 

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HKP/is_1_31/ai_100046607

 

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/menopaus.htm

 

 

 

 

 

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Hi Attilio,

 

> Hi Rich,

 

> No I don't think all medicine is to do with blockages at all, this >

>is a narrow way of TCM thinking. I think the correct and more

appropriate term you should use is balance not blockage.

 

The reason I personally began to explore the nature of " balance " was

when I realized, while observing a dead pond, that it is quite

possible in Nature, to be " in balance " and yet " dead " (or very

unhealthy). So for me, the notion of " seeking balance " or attempting

to " create balance " was an incomplete picture of what is necessary to

achieve health in nature.

 

Frank Lloyd Write has damned a river in front of his home in Wisconsin

and created a pond that was in perfect balance. However, it is now

covered with dead forms. Why? Because it was not flowing! So to

achieve " balance " does nothing - at least in the case of the pond -

because the " energy " (water) is not being cleaned and " refreshed " . It

is not Alive.

 

The same, I feel, is with the human body. Try as one might, to

" balance " the internal system, if it is not free of blockages, it will

still be unhealthy. Clean and refreshing energy cannot enter the body,

the energy cannot move freely within the body to clean it out, and

negative (or used energy) cannot exit.

 

If it is agreed that the human body is an open system, then it must

also be agreed that there is absolutely no way to " balance it from

within " . It is always " changing " . So the body must be allowed to

change and " find its own natural balance " just like water. The

practitioner, I beleive, assists the person in removing blockages in

order to find their own natural balance - whatever that might be. It

is different for each person, at any given time and space - just like

rivers and ponds in nature.

 

Of course, not all medicines do this. WM pharmaceuticals, I feel, are

an excellent example of medicines that " create blockages " in order to

suppress symptoms which is sort of like trying to put a lid on a

volcano. :-)

 

> As for Tuina versus acupuncture,

> well...Didn't acupuncture rise out of Tuina or acupressure? If so,

>then why did it develop?

 

I think there are many possible reasons:

 

1) Needles may have brought a different type - and more appropriate -

intent to the process. Not everyone responds in the same way to

different modalities.

1) A practitioner can use herbs or acupuncture to work on many people

simultaneously. This may, as still is, a practical aspect of the

medical vocation. Time is limited.

2) Not all blockages require the effort of manual bodywork - even if

manual bodywork may achieve the same results.

3) There may have been some " morality " issues associated with

manipulating certain parts of the body among the " elite " in ancient

times. Therefore " indirect " means were required - e.g. needles or herbs.

4) Not everyone wants to take the time to have bodywork performed.

 

These are some of the reasons I can think of. Others may have other ideas.

>

> In my TCM degree, we were taught the 9 needles and when to use them.

So I

> disagree with Tom Tam that it is a lost field. I believe that many

of the 9

> needles are brutal and impractical in today's world.

 

But if it is the treatment that is required to remove blockages then

it is what it needed. It is possible that alternative treatments such

as Tuina are less " brutal " . I don't know, since I have never seen them

performed side-by-side. Also, what is considered " brutal " varies from

culture to culture and from person to person. Cupping is absolutely

fine by me compared to the alternatives. Others may feel otherwise -

as they surely do.

 

 

>Also modern WM surgical techniques and sterilisation requirements

>have contributed to the declined use of some of the 9 needles. You

>can still but them, in framed sets in China.

 

Whether modern surgical techniques are a satisfactory replacement can

be debated. I have found (and there have been previous postings to

this effect) that surgery introduces permanent restructuring and

obstructions into the body which create permanent blockages with

associated long term problems. I have many, many friends who have gone

into knee surgery only to experience continual and painful decline in

their health over the years. Friends who have been treated with Tuina

(or other approaches) have not experienced the same decline. Again,

your experiences and mine are apparently quite different.

>

> I'm sure you can but the fire needles from a supplier in your area.

>Although > you may have to check how your insurance will cover it.

 

I do not know of anyone in my area who uses these techniques, so I am

very interested in hearing from other acupuncturists on the usefulness

of these techniques, particularly when attempting to address severe

blockages as Tom Tam suggests.

 

A couple of additional questions if you do not mind:

 

1) Do you think that nine-needles was essential in your situation or

would you have preferred to opt for an alternative approach such as

surgery? In other words would you have done it any differently or was

nine-needles techniques work well for you?

 

2) Also, I would be very interested in knowing what Tuina technques on

your cervical area prior to your having the nine-needle techniques?

Thanks.

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hi Dr. Keikobad,

>

> Where qi goes, structure follows.

> Where structure goes, qi may not follow.

>

> One way of re-establishing qi pathway is by local work, and it ought

> >to be done if there is scarring, heavy stagnation and debris.

>

> Another way is to have the qi itself find it's own way, which it

does >know how to do, having learned it from the best.

 

Yes, I very much agree. Something I ponder all the time.

 

The great Colorado River found its own way as it created the Grand

Canyon. It took eons - but maybe that is what we all truly have. :-)

 

 

Regards,

Rich

[Guest guest]

Yes, I understand the pond analogy. But this is incorrect. Just because the

water is still doesn't mean its balanced. If there is a free movement of

water then it's balanced.

 

You cannot use simply Tuina understanding of disease with acupuncture or

herbs, it doesn't fit or work. Acupuncture and herbal medicine are more

advanced disciplines of TCM than Tuina. Of course, there is no such thing as

true balance in TCM, it will never happen. We strive to attain it but never

quite achieve it. That's the beauty of TCM, its in a constant state of flux.

But, TCM is comprised of excess, deficiency, empty fire, etc and not all

blockages. So how can you try and fit TCM into this narrow understanding?

 

Western medicine I don't think creates blockages. Rather it moves the

disease around the body, mutating from one symptom to another. I don't

understand why your so obsessed with blockages. Move on...

 

Attilio

 

 

Rich [rfinkelstein]

18 October 2004 17:13

Chinese Medicine

Re: fused cervical vertabrae

 

 

 

 

Hi Attilio,

 

> Hi Rich,

 

> No I don't think all medicine is to do with blockages at all, this >

>is a narrow way of TCM thinking. I think the correct and more

appropriate term you should use is balance not blockage.

 

The reason I personally began to explore the nature of " balance " was

when I realized, while observing a dead pond, that it is quite

possible in Nature, to be " in balance " and yet " dead " (or very

unhealthy). So for me, the notion of " seeking balance " or attempting

to " create balance " was an incomplete picture of what is necessary to

achieve health in nature.

 

Frank Lloyd Write has damned a river in front of his home in Wisconsin

and created a pond that was in perfect balance. However, it is now

covered with dead forms. Why? Because it was not flowing! So to

achieve " balance " does nothing - at least in the case of the pond -

because the " energy " (water) is not being cleaned and " refreshed " . It

is not Alive.

 

The same, I feel, is with the human body. Try as one might, to

" balance " the internal system, if it is not free of blockages, it will

still be unhealthy. Clean and refreshing energy cannot enter the body,

the energy cannot move freely within the body to clean it out, and

negative (or used energy) cannot exit.

 

If it is agreed that the human body is an open system, then it must

also be agreed that there is absolutely no way to " balance it from

within " . It is always " changing " . So the body must be allowed to

change and " find its own natural balance " just like water. The

practitioner, I beleive, assists the person in removing blockages in

order to find their own natural balance - whatever that might be. It

is different for each person, at any given time and space - just like

rivers and ponds in nature.

 

Of course, not all medicines do this. WM pharmaceuticals, I feel, are

an excellent example of medicines that " create blockages " in order to

suppress symptoms which is sort of like trying to put a lid on a

volcano. :-)

 

> As for Tuina versus acupuncture,

> well...Didn't acupuncture rise out of Tuina or acupressure? If so,

>then why did it develop?

 

I think there are many possible reasons:

 

1) Needles may have brought a different type - and more appropriate -

intent to the process. Not everyone responds in the same way to

different modalities.

1) A practitioner can use herbs or acupuncture to work on many people

simultaneously. This may, as still is, a practical aspect of the

medical vocation. Time is limited.

2) Not all blockages require the effort of manual bodywork - even if

manual bodywork may achieve the same results.

3) There may have been some " morality " issues associated with

manipulating certain parts of the body among the " elite " in ancient

times. Therefore " indirect " means were required - e.g. needles or herbs.

4) Not everyone wants to take the time to have bodywork performed.

 

These are some of the reasons I can think of. Others may have other ideas.

>

> In my TCM degree, we were taught the 9 needles and when to use them.

So I

> disagree with Tom Tam that it is a lost field. I believe that many

of the 9

> needles are brutal and impractical in today's world.

 

But if it is the treatment that is required to remove blockages then

it is what it needed. It is possible that alternative treatments such

as Tuina are less " brutal " . I don't know, since I have never seen them

performed side-by-side. Also, what is considered " brutal " varies from

culture to culture and from person to person. Cupping is absolutely

fine by me compared to the alternatives. Others may feel otherwise -

as they surely do.

 

 

>Also modern WM surgical techniques and sterilisation requirements

>have contributed to the declined use of some of the 9 needles. You

>can still but them, in framed sets in China.

 

Whether modern surgical techniques are a satisfactory replacement can

be debated. I have found (and there have been previous postings to

this effect) that surgery introduces permanent restructuring and

obstructions into the body which create permanent blockages with

associated long term problems. I have many, many friends who have gone

into knee surgery only to experience continual and painful decline in

their health over the years. Friends who have been treated with Tuina

(or other approaches) have not experienced the same decline. Again,

your experiences and mine are apparently quite different.

>

> I'm sure you can but the fire needles from a supplier in your area.

>Although > you may have to check how your insurance will cover it.

 

I do not know of anyone in my area who uses these techniques, so I am

very interested in hearing from other acupuncturists on the usefulness

of these techniques, particularly when attempting to address severe

blockages as Tom Tam suggests.

 

A couple of additional questions if you do not mind:

 

1) Do you think that nine-needles was essential in your situation or

would you have preferred to opt for an alternative approach such as

surgery? In other words would you have done it any differently or was

nine-needles techniques work well for you?

 

2) Also, I would be very interested in knowing what Tuina technques on

your cervical area prior to your having the nine-needle techniques?

Thanks.

 

Regards,

Rich