Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2009 On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 7:26 PM, mrasmm <mrasmm wrote: > > > There was a guy that owns a western herbal school and shop around here, and > he was using the word cure and tonic with his patients, with his school, and > on his products. He ended up having to go to court and doing some jail time > and he had to change all the names of his products. > I think " tonic " is okay to say. > > I don't really know what the specific law is though. > > The law that makes you put " This statement has not been evaluated by the > FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any > disease. " on packaging is called the DSHEA or Dietary Supplement Health and > Education Act > Yes, and this is the law that defines claims as *fixing things*. We can make " structure/function " claims such as herbs *regulate, balance, support*, etc. However " health " claims fix problems. Here's more on how it applies to CM herbalists specifically: http://gancao.net/dshea/ But the FDA isn't the agency that went after Kevin Trudeau, it was the FTC. FDA is the Food and Drug Association. The FTC is the Federal Trade Commission. The FDA keeps an eye on those who make health or disease claims. The FTC keeps an eye on true and not misleading advertising. And it was the FTC that went after Andrew Weil recently too. His language was correct in regards to what he was saying for H1N1 in regards to DSHEA, but because huang qi (astragalus) has not been proven (to the FDA's standards) to improve the " immune system " Dr. Weil's claims were deemed unproven (an FTC issue, not FDA) and he had the same problem as Mr. Trudeau, though Dr. Weil simply removed the web page or the purchase opportunities, something like that. Problem solved. No jail time or fine to my knowledge. Dr. Weil and Kevin Trudeau are opposite ends of the legitimate-statements spectrum. But in each case, they were shut up by the FTC (not the FDA). However, just between you and me and the 1,500 people on this list, these two are the big fish in the natural health game, and thus were the low-hanging fruit to pick-on. I believe that the affect of going after these two sends shockwaves through the herbal industry. I know that I reviewed and made changes to my own H1N1 page. Not that I would be much of a target for the FTC, but I like to try and avoid problems of this nature. Personally, I never thought that Kevin Trudeau was doing our industry any favors. I went to a " health freedom " conference a few years back. He was the keynote speaker. I spent most of my time in the exhibition hall and found that for the most part the remedies and devices that were being promoted there were pretty low-quality in terms of informed consumers and promoters. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2009 On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:30 AM, bear7_77 <bear7_77 wrote: > > > ex. If you say on your website that you can treat, cure or prevent acid > reflux. That is probably not acceptable. Probably limited to saying can > treat Rebellious Stomach Qi. > There are a bunch of " non-compliant workarounds " listed at the gancao.netDSHEA tutorial. Among them, believe it or not, is the use of CM differentiations. The FDA doesn't actually mention " " , but they do say that if the symptoms of a particular issue are recognizable to an MD as a disease state, then it is a disease. [More...<http://gancao.net/dshea/claims-supplements/tcm-disease-terms-replacing-\ wm-terms-119> ] So, even if you say " Rebellious Stomach Qi " , and the definition of that is nausea, vomiting, hiccups, heartburn, and acid reflux, then you're still treating those problems. Fortunately, there is some wiggle room in that these issues may not necessarily be a disease. They can be a response to something low-grade and short-termed such as what we Americans may be feeling this coming Thursday, our big feast of the year day. So if overeating causes a problem, we can fix that. That isn't considered a disease. However, if this is a constant problem over the course of time where one might see an MD to fix it. That's a disease in many (but not all) cases. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2009 Hi John, I've treated herniations successfully, but the patients MUST FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS. The most straightforward case had one gentleman take a nearly unmodified Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang for 9 months continuously. At the end of that time, he was sleeping great, was eating well according to CM principles, had changed his sexual habits, was doing a minor qi gong set daily, had great energy and no inguinal hernia. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2009 In my case, I do not know if there is no bulge anymore. All I know is that the symptoms are gone. I'm chubbier now, so no bulge shows. - " bear7_77 " <bear7_77 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, November 23, 2009 8:30 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > Hi everyone, > > THanks for your input. > > If possible, I would really love to hear from someone who has actually > treated an inguinal hernia successfully ( note I did not use " cure " ) By > successful, I mean the bulge in the abdomen went away ( not just pain) or > a doctor said there is no hernia anymore. > > The legalities of the FDA statement is an interesting topic. > I would also be interested to hear from someone who knows the law on this. > > A strict interpretation might be to follow the FDA statement to the > letter. All diagnosis and treatment must be differential. My guess is > the powers that be, do not want any non Doctor diagnosing, treating, > curing, or preventing a " Western named disease " . > > ex. If you say on your website that you can treat, cure or prevent acid > reflux. That is probably not acceptable. Probably limited to saying can > treat Rebellious Stomach Qi. > > John Wysong L.Ac > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " pejo_mstd " <pejo_mstd wrote: >> >> I think it can be regarded as Shan-disorder, try searching on that. >> >> This is for hernia from acuxo.com: >> >> BL29 . Zhong Lu Shu >> SP13 . Fu She >> SP14 . Fu Jie >> ST26 . Wai Ling >> >> I would also consider Liver 4, 5 that is indicated for Shan-disorder. >> Maybe also consider Spleen 4 and Kidney 4, Luo of Spleen and Kidney >> respectively, depending on where the hearnia is and which meridian going >> through the area. >> >> Interesting that it is illegal to use the word " cure " for all but >> medicine and surgery which I do not think is a cure at all, just a way of >> covering up or cut out the symptoms of disease, not curing it. It is like >> cutting off a leaf of a plant when it goes bad because it has gotten to >> much or too little water. >> >> /P >> >> >> Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum@> wrote: >> > >> > Worked for me. Of course the word " cure " can legally only be used to >> > refer >> > to successful treatments based on drugs and surgery, so no. >> > There are two etiologies for hernia in TCM. Spleen qi deficiency not >> > holding things in place and cold in the liver meridian. >> > >> > >> > > > > > --- > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 23, 2009 Although as a matter of fact, I was checked out by a doctor who stated in his opinion I did NOT have a hernia, now that I think of it. But they didn't X-Ray me or anything. Dude barely even spent a minute with me. - " bear7_77 " <bear7_77 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, November 23, 2009 8:30 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > Hi everyone, > > THanks for your input. > > If possible, I would really love to hear from someone who has actually > treated an inguinal hernia successfully ( note I did not use " cure " ) By > successful, I mean the bulge in the abdomen went away ( not just pain) or > a doctor said there is no hernia anymore. > > The legalities of the FDA statement is an interesting topic. > I would also be interested to hear from someone who knows the law on this. > > A strict interpretation might be to follow the FDA statement to the > letter. All diagnosis and treatment must be differential. My guess is > the powers that be, do not want any non Doctor diagnosing, treating, > curing, or preventing a " Western named disease " . > > ex. If you say on your website that you can treat, cure or prevent acid > reflux. That is probably not acceptable. Probably limited to saying can > treat Rebellious Stomach Qi. > > John Wysong L.Ac > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " pejo_mstd " <pejo_mstd wrote: >> >> I think it can be regarded as Shan-disorder, try searching on that. >> >> This is for hernia from acuxo.com: >> >> BL29 . Zhong Lu Shu >> SP13 . Fu She >> SP14 . Fu Jie >> ST26 . Wai Ling >> >> I would also consider Liver 4, 5 that is indicated for Shan-disorder. >> Maybe also consider Spleen 4 and Kidney 4, Luo of Spleen and Kidney >> respectively, depending on where the hearnia is and which meridian going >> through the area. >> >> Interesting that it is illegal to use the word " cure " for all but >> medicine and surgery which I do not think is a cure at all, just a way of >> covering up or cut out the symptoms of disease, not curing it. It is like >> cutting off a leaf of a plant when it goes bad because it has gotten to >> much or too little water. >> >> /P >> >> >> Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> <magisterium_magnum@> wrote: >> > >> > Worked for me. Of course the word " cure " can legally only be used to >> > refer >> > to successful treatments based on drugs and surgery, so no. >> > There are two etiologies for hernia in TCM. Spleen qi deficiency not >> > holding things in place and cold in the liver meridian. >> > >> > >> > > > > > --- > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2009 Is there something controversial about hernia surgery? I mean, of course there is probably an energetic problem in the background (Liver/Kidney/Spleen) which should be treated. But why not help the body by sewing together what is torn apart? Isn't it similar to sewing together a skin wound? Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi John, I've treated herniations successfully, but the patients MUST FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS. > The most straightforward case had one gentleman take a nearly unmodified Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang for 9 months continuously. At the end of that time, he was sleeping great, was eating well according to CM principles, had changed his sexual habits, was doing a minor qi gong set daily, had great energy and no inguinal hernia. > > Hugo > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2009 Hi Tamas. What do you mean " *probably* an energetic problem in the background " ? Energetics are the source of all hernias and are central aspects of all problems including injury because they define the limits of our response. And perhaps foundation would be a better word over background. Furthermore every surgery leaves scar tissue, including laparoscopic surgeries. Surgery also does not reduce the re-occurrence of a hernia, either in the same location or on the other side. Repair of a hernia which has already been repaired is that much more complex and likely to infect. Clearly, non-life-threatening inguinal hernias require treatment via CM, with surgery as a last resort and in a supportive role. Because hernias are injuries to the connective tissue, and therefore have deep involvement of the spleen and triple warmer, treatment for them is very much *not* like sewing up a superficial cut. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Tamas <knz Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 24 November, 2009 2:58:45 [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia Is there something controversial about hernia surgery? I mean, of course there is probably an energetic problem in the background (Liver/Kidney/ Spleen) which should be treated. But why not help the body by sewing together what is torn apart? Isn't it similar to sewing together a skin wound? Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi John, I've treated herniations successfully, but the patients MUST FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS. > The most straightforward case had one gentleman take a nearly unmodified Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang for 9 months continuously. At the end of that time, he was sleeping great, was eating well according to CM principles, had changed his sexual habits, was doing a minor qi gong set daily, had great energy and no inguinal hernia. > > Hugo > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.middleme dicine.org > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2009 I don't have insurance. That's why I didn't have the surgery. Thank god for the herbs! - " Tamas " <knz <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tuesday, November 24, 2009 1:58 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > Is there something controversial about hernia surgery? I mean, of course > there is probably an energetic problem in the background > (Liver/Kidney/Spleen) which should be treated. But why not help the body > by sewing together what is torn apart? Isn't it similar to sewing together > a skin wound? > > Tamas > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> >> Hi John, I've treated herniations successfully, but the patients MUST >> FOLLOW MY DIRECTIONS. >> The most straightforward case had one gentleman take a nearly unmodified >> Bu Zhong Yi Qi tang for 9 months continuously. At the end of that time, >> he was sleeping great, was eating well according to CM principles, had >> changed his sexual habits, was doing a minor qi gong set daily, had great >> energy and no inguinal hernia. >> >> Hugo >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >> http://www.middlemedicine.org >> >> >> >> >> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 24, 2009 Hi Hugo, Well, let's forget the word " probably " , that's not my point. I did not suggest to have surgery and it's done. I said surgery *and* CM (or whatever similar). I didn't know that surgery had any contraindications. Sewing sounded good as a first aid for ruptured tissue. And the keyhole scars they leave on the skin don't sound like a big issue. Only the mesh implant that sounds bad to my ears. Some plastic sheet grown into my tissues...yikes... As for my own mild ing.hernia (yes, me too) I'll do the hernia exercises I've just found on the net and swimming and a bit qigong. I'll see. Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Tamas. > What do you mean " *probably* an energetic problem in the background " ? Energetics are the source of all hernias and are central aspects of all problems including injury because they define the limits of our response. And perhaps foundation would be a better word over background. > Furthermore every surgery leaves scar tissue, including laparoscopic surgeries. Surgery also does not reduce the re-occurrence of a hernia, either in the same location or on the other side. Repair of a hernia which has already been repaired is that much more complex and likely to infect. > Clearly, non-life-threatening inguinal hernias require treatment via CM, with surgery as a last resort and in a supportive role. > Because hernias are injuries to the connective tissue, and therefore have deep involvement of the spleen and triple warmer, treatment for them is very much *not* like sewing up a superficial cut. > > Hugo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2009 Hi Tamas: The reason the surgery is a bad idea in principle (unless completely necessary) is because it's like patching a hole with some plywood in a rotten, termite infested floor. All that's going to happen is more and more patches are going to be needed, and the person never learns the lesson. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Tamas <knz Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 24 November, 2009 15:39:54 [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia Hi Hugo, Well, let's forget the word " probably " , that's not my point. I did not suggest to have surgery and it's done. I said surgery *and* CM (or whatever similar). I didn't know that surgery had any contraindications. Sewing sounded good as a first aid for ruptured tissue. And the keyhole scars they leave on the skin don't sound like a big issue. Only the mesh implant that sounds bad to my ears. Some plastic sheet grown into my tissues...yikes. .. As for my own mild ing.hernia (yes, me too) I'll do the hernia exercises I've just found on the net and swimming and a bit qigong. I'll see. Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine, Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. .> wrote: > > Hi Tamas. > What do you mean " *probably* an energetic problem in the background " ? Energetics are the source of all hernias and are central aspects of all problems including injury because they define the limits of our response. And perhaps foundation would be a better word over background. > Furthermore every surgery leaves scar tissue, including laparoscopic surgeries. Surgery also does not reduce the re-occurrence of a hernia, either in the same location or on the other side. Repair of a hernia which has already been repaired is that much more complex and likely to infect. > Clearly, non-life-threatenin g inguinal hernias require treatment via CM, with surgery as a last resort and in a supportive role. > Because hernias are injuries to the connective tissue, and therefore have deep involvement of the spleen and triple warmer, treatment for them is very much *not* like sewing up a superficial cut. > > Hugo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 25, 2009 Hugo, I really like your metaphor, it's very exact. What I don't like, and this going to be a bit off-topic, so what I don't like and don't understand is why several thousand years has not been enough for the medical sciences to reach a consensus on how to deal with such a simple thing like hernia. I mean simple, compared to hyperthyroidism, MS, cancer, etc. I asked my surgeon what to do to prevent the hernia, if there's an exercise or something. He said no, I got the propensity, accept it. Next thing I saw is a guy on youtube claiming to have healed his hernia with simple exercises. Then you with Bu Zhong Yi Qi. I'm not saying there can't be differing views among experts in any area. But what's going on in the medicine is too much. Somebody please clean up this mess. Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Tamas: > > The reason the surgery is a bad idea in principle (unless completely necessary) is because it's like patching a hole with some plywood in a rotten, termite infested floor. All that's going to happen is more and more patches are going to be needed, and the person never learns the lesson. > > Hugo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 30, 2009 Well, the west has a completely new medical ontology within the last 100 years or so. So that stuff's all brand new. - " Tamas " <knz <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:23 PM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > Hugo, > > I really like your metaphor, it's very exact. > > What I don't like, and this going to be a bit off-topic, so what I don't > like and don't understand is why several thousand years has not been > enough for the medical sciences to reach a consensus on how to deal with > such a simple thing like hernia. I mean simple, compared to > hyperthyroidism, MS, cancer, etc. > > I asked my surgeon what to do to prevent the hernia, if there's an > exercise or something. He said no, I got the propensity, accept it. Next > thing I saw is a guy on youtube claiming to have healed his hernia with > simple exercises. Then you with Bu Zhong Yi Qi. > > I'm not saying there can't be differing views among experts in any area. > But what's going on in the medicine is too much. Somebody please clean up > this mess. > > Tamas > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> >> Hi Tamas: >> >> The reason the surgery is a bad idea in principle (unless completely >> necessary) is because it's like patching a hole with some plywood in a >> rotten, termite infested floor. All that's going to happen is more and >> more patches are going to be needed, and the person never learns the >> lesson. >> >> Hugo > > > > --- > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 1, 2009 You're right, and my heart leans toward CM, as well... It's just that after all those western doctors must be good people, too. They're educated, they're trying to help. It just doesn't sound right for me, the patient, to assume they're completely wrong about hernia treatment or any other thing. Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum wrote: > > Well, the west has a completely new medical ontology within the last 100 > years or so. So that stuff's all brand new. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 2, 2009 http://thehatefulnerd.livejournal.com/937.html Here are my major objections to " Science, " or more specifically " The Scientific Method " as a rigorous epistemology: 1: Scientific knowledge is not possible. 2: The Empirical Method is based on numerous presuppositions that have been discredited for the past 2-3 centuries. 3: The reasoning of science is based on inductive reasoning, which is NOT logically valid. 4: " Scientists " (especially physicists) regularly go beyond the bounds of " science. " 5: " Science " today is, to say the least politicized. 6: " Science " has been " separated " from religion. - " Tamas " <knz <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:41 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > You're right, and my heart leans toward CM, as well... > > It's just that after all those western doctors must be good people, too. > They're educated, they're trying to help. It just doesn't sound right for > me, the patient, to assume they're completely wrong about hernia treatment > or any other thing. > > Tamas > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " > <magisterium_magnum wrote: >> >> Well, the west has a completely new medical ontology within the last 100 >> years or so. So that stuff's all brand new. >> >> > > > > --- > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 2, 2009 This guy's using logical reasoning to disprove logical reasoning. And he's using the internet whose existence would be impossible without the scientific method. Western medicine does have its weaknesses but one should criticize them in a careful and credible way. An angry, emotional approach is harmful. Tamas Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum wrote: > > http://thehatefulnerd.livejournal.com/937.html > Here are my major objections to " Science, " or more specifically " The > Scientific Method " as a rigorous epistemology: > 1: Scientific knowledge is not possible. > 2: The Empirical Method is based on numerous presuppositions that have been > discredited for the past 2-3 centuries. > 3: The reasoning of science is based on inductive reasoning, which is NOT > logically valid. > 4: " Scientists " (especially physicists) regularly go beyond the bounds of > " science. " > 5: " Science " today is, to say the least politicized. > 6: " Science " has been " separated " from religion. > > > > > - > " Tamas " <knz > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:41 AM > [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > > > > You're right, and my heart leans toward CM, as well... > > > > It's just that after all those western doctors must be good people, too. > > They're educated, they're trying to help. It just doesn't sound right for > > me, the patient, to assume they're completely wrong about hernia treatment > > or any other thing. > > > > Tamas > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " > > <magisterium_magnum@> wrote: > >> > >> Well, the west has a completely new medical ontology within the last 100 > >> years or so. So that stuff's all brand new. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine > > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 4, 2009 1: The scientific method is empirical, not " logical. " Indeed, it is based on inductive, which is to say illogical reasoning. 2: " invention " is a creative art, obviously not reliant upon science, because scientific knowledge is not possible. If I use a cell phone to tell someone that cell phones can be harmful to your health, does that make it not so? 3: Why are you attempting to imply that I am being angry and emotional? In logic, this is called an ad hominem, or an attack on the messenger. If you can refute anything in the article, please do. But you can't. Perhaps that makes you angry and emotional. - " Tamas " <knz <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:47 AM [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia > This guy's using logical reasoning to disprove logical reasoning. > And he's using the internet whose existence would be impossible without > the scientific method. > > Western medicine does have its weaknesses but one should criticize them in > a careful and credible way. An angry, emotional approach is harmful. > > Tamas > > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " > <magisterium_magnum wrote: >> >> http://thehatefulnerd.livejournal.com/937.html >> Here are my major objections to " Science, " or more specifically " The >> Scientific Method " as a rigorous epistemology: >> 1: Scientific knowledge is not possible. >> 2: The Empirical Method is based on numerous presuppositions that have >> been >> discredited for the past 2-3 centuries. >> 3: The reasoning of science is based on inductive reasoning, which is >> NOT >> logically valid. >> 4: " Scientists " (especially physicists) regularly go beyond the bounds >> of >> " science. " >> 5: " Science " today is, to say the least politicized. >> 6: " Science " has been " separated " from religion. >> >> >> >> >> - >> " Tamas " <knz >> <Chinese Traditional Medicine > >> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:41 AM >> [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: hernia >> >> >> > You're right, and my heart leans toward CM, as well... >> > >> > It's just that after all those western doctors must be good people, >> > too. >> > They're educated, they're trying to help. It just doesn't sound right >> > for >> > me, the patient, to assume they're completely wrong about hernia >> > treatment >> > or any other thing. >> > >> > Tamas >> > >> > Chinese Traditional Medicine , " Mercurius Trismegistus " >> > <magisterium_magnum@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Well, the west has a completely new medical ontology within the last >> >> 100 >> >> years or so. So that stuff's all brand new. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > --- >> > >> > Post message address: Chinese Traditional Medicine >> > http://health.Chinese Traditional Medicine/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 4, 2009 Group: We're far from hernia and CM now, please notify us if we should continue this in private. Okay, as far as I know the scientific method does involve logical reasoning as a tool for analyzing the observations. My guess is that logical reasoning is the area which is more sensitive to human errors. The limitation of induction is known but the logical errors are easy to make for people who are not mathematicians (physicians). Things like conditional probability can be tricky. The existence of cell phone did required invention. But pure invention was not enough. Existence of cell phones is based on an unbelievable huge amount of scientific work ranging from Euclid to Neumann. The scientific method may have its problems but it can't be *that* bad since cell phones work. And you're using a cell phone to tell somebody cell phones can't work, that's what I meant. Emotion: it was a hint not an attack. I think if a scientist reads your article it is likely that he will respond to the emotional side of your opinion with his own emotions. And that's not a good direction for discussing such a delicate question. One more thing: I was using " this guy " instead of " you " because I was not aware it's you, I'm sorry. Tamas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
