Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM Re: bone spurs Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) You might want to work on her diet as well. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the afternoons. > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be effective? > > Thank you, > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, thinking of how much they spent for no results. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > afternoons. > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > effective? > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > Games. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM Re: bone spurs Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, thinking of how much they spent for no results. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > afternoons. > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > effective? > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > Games. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Let me look at what you are trying to say. " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the world is not so black and white. " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a reverse Morton's) " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) and less giving inserts. " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here but it seems you are going against what you already said about not being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely different if we actually saw the patient. lol Thanks for the banter. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > let > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > feet. > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history > of > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > the > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > comfortably > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > remembers > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > her > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > with > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > and > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > that > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > yellow > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver > yin > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > cold > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and > hot > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > > afternoons. > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > spur > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), > but > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > effective? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > > Games. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 I think the question that needs to be asked is can a bone spur resorb. I don't think so. But I am not sure on this one. Bone spuring is an arthritic change brought out by mechanical stress, trauma or metabolic dysfunction. It is an excessive growth of bone. This is going to be very hard to cure. With that said, the mechanical stress, of being overweight with a bad gait, flat feet, etc. reinforces mechanical stress. Correcting structural issues (see podiatirst) may have some impact, it depends on where the bone spur exactly is and what it is irritating. I need to look at what is in John Chen's Flex Spur product. Can an herbal formula dissolve bone growth? I don't think so. When a bone spur is irritating enough I believe this is usually a surgery situation if nothing else can help it. I tend to look at this kind of situation in not very TCM terms. However, the reasons why she may have this issue with her feet probably has to do with constitutional and lifestyle imbalances. Treating it at that level may help in the long run. Alex , < wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Many thanks to all who have written so far about this bone spur. To clarify, the spur is on top of the foot, not on the weight bearing sole, and the pain is also on the top of the joint/foot, and radiates more along the lateral side of the toe into the liver channel, rather than the spleen channel. Sometimes the joint gets stiff and this causes further pain, particularly when the patient wears sandals; the pain is better or gone when she wears sneakers with good arch support. I believe diet, constitutional imbalances and mechanics all play a part in addition to the 25-year old foot injury providing the impetus for the evolution of the spur. I will write more to answer questions about internal disharmonies later. Thank you, Alex Berks <aberks wrote: I think the question that needs to be asked is can a bone spur resorb. I don't think so. But I am not sure on this one. Bone spuring is an arthritic change brought out by mechanical stress, trauma or metabolic dysfunction. It is an excessive growth of bone. This is going to be very hard to cure. With that said, the mechanical stress, of being overweight with a bad gait, flat feet, etc. reinforces mechanical stress. Correcting structural issues (see podiatirst) may have some impact, it depends on where the bone spur exactly is and what it is irritating. I need to look at what is in John Chen's Flex Spur product. Can an herbal formula dissolve bone growth? I don't think so. When a bone spur is irritating enough I believe this is usually a surgery situation if nothing else can help it. I tend to look at this kind of situation in not very TCM terms. However, the reasons why she may have this issue with her feet probably has to do with constitutional and lifestyle imbalances. Treating it at that level may help in the long run. Alex , < wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet.... Never miss an email again! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Thank you, Kelvin. The area of the spur is slightly red but not warm, and it gets redder and hot only when she's worn shoes - the spur causes the shoes to be too tight across the top of the foot, and this causes friction on the spur which makes it hot. Otherwise, it's quite cool. And yes, we are working on diet. Where can I find the plaster you recommend? I've never heard of it before. acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) You might want to work on her diet as well. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the afternoons. > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be effective? > > Thank you, > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Alon, What would treat the root? Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell? Check outnew cars at Autos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 The joint is so tight, I can only get needles around it, and not into it. acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, thinking of how much they spent for no results. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > afternoons. > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > effective? > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > Games. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Andrea To me the root has to be in the foot mechanics although you said she had trauma so the cause could be traumatic. The fact that a good shoe takes care of the pain supports this. If she has to use sandals i would make her a pair that has a good built in orthotic. Otherwise i would take care of her TCM patterns. If her joint is very stiff that is probably a good thing for her as long as she can do all the daily activities she wants pain free (using good foot ware). If i had to increase joint flexibility i would do it using local therapies with functional osteopathic techniques. I would not try to stretch the joint as it would most likely just increase the pain. - Chinese Medicine Monday, May 07, 2007 7:38 AM Re: Re: bone spurs Alon, What would treat the root? Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote: Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will never treat the root of the problem. Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell? Check outnew cars at Autos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Lying in bad is a significant mechanical stress as stress distribution are severely disturb. It leads to abnormal tension on soft tissues with is the definition of mechanical problems. Beside some metabolic disorders there are no other reasons for spurs. Also having a bone spur does not mean the pain is from the spur actually it is mostly likely not the cause of pain, that is the state of the correct evidence in the spine as well as other joints. Her pain is gone with a good shoe the spur is still there. I also do not think ones weight is a predictor to ones foot dysfunction and many have forefoot valgus. We also use reverse morton's on forefoot varus in patients with first MTP lucking on weight all the time with good results. I definitely agree with you that if we saw the patient we would probably come to a different conclusion. All we can do in this forum is give suggestions not prescriptions - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM Re: bone spurs Let me look at what you are trying to say. " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the world is not so black and white. " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a reverse Morton's) " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) and less giving inserts. " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here but it seems you are going against what you already said about not being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely different if we actually saw the patient. lol Thanks for the banter. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > let > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > feet. > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history > of > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > the > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > comfortably > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > remembers > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > her > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > with > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > and > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > that > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > yellow > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver > yin > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > cold > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and > hot > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > > afternoons. > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > spur > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), > but > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > effective? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > > Games. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Kelvin A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in pressure on neural tissues. - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM Re: bone spurs Let me look at what you are trying to say. " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the world is not so black and white. " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a reverse Morton's) " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) and less giving inserts. " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here but it seems you are going against what you already said about not being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely different if we actually saw the patient. lol Thanks for the banter. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine works > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if you > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > let > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > feet. > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history > of > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > the > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > comfortably > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > remembers > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > her > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > with > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > and > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > that > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > yellow > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver > yin > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > cold > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and > hot > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > > afternoons. > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > spur > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), > but > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > effective? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > > Games. > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 I was trying to work out what a reverse morton was and found this site that gives examples of inner soles, and summarises the use and contraindication. Might help... http://www.theorthoticgroup.com/TOG-Professionals-Additions.html May On 7/5/07 17:22, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > > > > Kelvin > A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot > varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you > are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a > K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My > point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in > arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. > As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in > pressure on neural tissues. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM > Re: bone spurs > > Let me look at what you are trying to say. > > " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical > stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital > bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the > world is not so black and white. > > " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well > Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from > walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a > reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, > most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a > reverse Morton's) > > " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally > but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics > of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing > the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's > foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is > more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) > and less giving inserts. > > " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some > of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the > symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here > but it seems you are going against what you already said about not > being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the > post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her > toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. > > Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely > different if we actually saw the patient. lol > Thanks for the banter. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus wrote: >> > >> > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest > will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a > patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in > completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms > with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of > the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to > it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due > to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup > and get rid or the symptoms >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > acupuncturebeverlyhills >> > Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine%40> >> > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM >> > Re: bone spurs >> > >> > >> > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " >> > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). >> > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, >> > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). >> > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine > works >> > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if > you >> > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of >> > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, >> > thinking of how much they spent for no results. >> > >> > Kelvin >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine%40> , " Alon > Marcus " >> > <alonmarcus@> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will >> > never treat the root of the problem. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > - >>> > > acupuncturebeverlyhills >>> > > Chinese Medicine >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM >>> > > Re: bone spurs >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. >>> > > >>> > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " >>> > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm >> > let >>> > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) >>> > > >>> > > You might want to work on her diet as well. >>> > > >>> > > Kelvin >>> > > >>> > > Chinese Medicine >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> , Andrea > Beth >>> > > Damsky <@> wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Hi All, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the >> > feet. >>> > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a > history >> > of >>> > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since > age >>> > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of >> > the >>> > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is >>> > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit >> > comfortably >>> > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in > shoes >>> > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet > since >>> > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she >> > remembers >>> > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in >> > her >>> > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, >> > with >>> > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs >> > and >>> > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and >>> > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that >>> > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years > ago), >>> > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue >> > that >>> > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly >> > yellow >>> > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, > approaching >>> > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver >> > yin >>> > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and >>> > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be >> > cold >>> > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings > and >> > hot >>> > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with > kidney >>> > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, >>> > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in > the >>> > > afternoons. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone >> > spur >>> > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen > has >>> > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex > Spur), >> > but >>> > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be >>> > > effective? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Thank you, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Be a PS3 game guru. >>>> > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews > at >>> > > Games. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Cool! Thank you! May Lucken-Ardjomande <maylucken wrote: I was trying to work out what a reverse morton was and found this site that gives examples of inner soles, and summarises the use and contraindication. Might help... http://www.theorthoticgroup.com/TOG-Professionals-Additions.html May On 7/5/07 17:22, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > > > > Kelvin > A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot > varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you > are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a > K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My > point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in > arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. > As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in > pressure on neural tissues. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM > Re: bone spurs > > Let me look at what you are trying to say. > > " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical > stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital > bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the > world is not so black and white. > > " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well > Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from > walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a > reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, > most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a > reverse Morton's) > > " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally > but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics > of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing > the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's > foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is > more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) > and less giving inserts. > > " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some > of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the > symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here > but it seems you are going against what you already said about not > being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the > post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her > toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. > > Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely > different if we actually saw the patient. lol > Thanks for the banter. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus wrote: >> > >> > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest > will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a > patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in > completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms > with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of > the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to > it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due > to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup > and get rid or the symptoms >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > - >> > acupuncturebeverlyhills >> > Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine%40> >> > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM >> > Re: bone spurs >> > >> > >> > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " >> > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). >> > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, >> > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). >> > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine > works >> > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if > you >> > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of >> > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, >> > thinking of how much they spent for no results. >> > >> > Kelvin >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> <Chinese Medicine%40> , " Alon > Marcus " >> > <alonmarcus@> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will >> > never treat the root of the problem. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > - >>> > > acupuncturebeverlyhills >>> > > Chinese Medicine >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM >>> > > Re: bone spurs >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. >>> > > >>> > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " >>> > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm >> > let >>> > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) >>> > > >>> > > You might want to work on her diet as well. >>> > > >>> > > Kelvin >>> > > >>> > > Chinese Medicine >>> <Chinese Medicine%40> , Andrea > Beth >>> > > Damsky <@> wrote: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Hi All, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the >> > feet. >>> > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a > history >> > of >>> > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since > age >>> > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of >> > the >>> > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is >>> > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit >> > comfortably >>> > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in > shoes >>> > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet > since >>> > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she >> > remembers >>> > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in >> > her >>> > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, >> > with >>> > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs >> > and >>> > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and >>> > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that >>> > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years > ago), >>> > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue >> > that >>> > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly >> > yellow >>> > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, > approaching >>> > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver >> > yin >>> > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and >>> > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be >> > cold >>> > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings > and >> > hot >>> > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with > kidney >>> > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, >>> > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in > the >>> > > afternoons. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone >> > spur >>> > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen > has >>> > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex > Spur), >> > but >>> > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be >>> > > effective? >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Thank you, >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Be a PS3 game guru. >>>> > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews > at >>> > > Games. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 Alon, I wasn't thinking " reverse Morton's extension " it is just what you suggested to Yehuda. See your advice here. http://health.Chinese Medicine/mess age/24493 I still believe that, in the long run, ortho inserts are just bandaids and don't treat the root of anything. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Kelvin > A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. > As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in pressure on neural tissues. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Let me look at what you are trying to say. > > " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical > stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital > bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the > world is not so black and white. > > " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well > Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from > walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a > reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, > most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a > reverse Morton's) > > " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally > but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics > of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing > the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's > foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is > more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) > and less giving inserts. > > " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some > of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the > symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here > but it seems you are going against what you already said about not > being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the > post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her > toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. > > Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely > different if we actually saw the patient. lol > Thanks for the banter. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest > will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a > patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in > completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms > with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of > the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to > it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due > to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup > and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine > works > > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if > you > > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon > Marcus " > > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > > let > > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea > Beth > > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > > feet. > > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a > history > > of > > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since > age > > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > > the > > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > > comfortably > > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in > shoes > > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet > since > > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > > remembers > > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > > her > > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > > with > > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > > and > > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years > ago), > > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > > that > > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > > yellow > > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, > approaching > > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney- liver > > yin > > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > > cold > > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings > and > > hot > > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with > kidney > > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in > the > > > afternoons. > > > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > > spur > > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen > has > > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex > Spur), > > but > > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > > effective? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews > at > > > Games. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 7, 2007 http://www.shopsuigetsu.com/701_Dieda_Zhengtong_Yaogao_Medicated_Plast er_p/suimed-701%20medicated%20plaster.htm or just google it. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth Damsky < wrote: > > Thank you, Kelvin. > > The area of the spur is slightly red but not warm, and it gets redder and hot only when she's worn shoes - the spur causes the shoes to be too tight across the top of the foot, and this causes friction on the spur which makes it hot. Otherwise, it's quite cool. > > And yes, we are working on diet. Where can I find the plaster you recommend? I've never heard of it before. > > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm let > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea Beth > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit comfortably > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago), > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be cold > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings and hot > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the > afternoons. > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > effective? > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at > Games. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 Kelvin As you know a compensated forefoot varus is a condition that results from a supinated foot at birth something we just cant change. If you know a way please let me know. A good orthotic is the only way i know to take stresses out of the foot, this should always be integrated with manual therapy and exercises. However, if the first ray is down and MTP lucks in stance i do not know of any other way to resolve it. Please let me know if you do - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Monday, May 07, 2007 1:55 PM Re: bone spurs Alon, I wasn't thinking " reverse Morton's extension " it is just what you suggested to Yehuda. See your advice here. http://health.Chinese Medicine/mess age/24493 I still believe that, in the long run, ortho inserts are just bandaids and don't treat the root of anything. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Kelvin > A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. > As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in pressure on neural tissues. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Let me look at what you are trying to say. > > " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical > stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital > bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the > world is not so black and white. > > " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well > Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from > walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a > reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, > most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a > reverse Morton's) > > " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally > but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics > of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing > the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's > foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is > more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) > and less giving inserts. > > " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some > of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the > symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here > but it seems you are going against what you already said about not > being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the > post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her > toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. > > Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely > different if we actually saw the patient. lol > Thanks for the banter. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest > will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a > patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in > completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms > with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of > the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to > it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due > to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup > and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine > works > > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if > you > > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon > Marcus " > > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > > let > > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea > Beth > > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > > feet. > > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a > history > > of > > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since > age > > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > > the > > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > > comfortably > > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in > shoes > > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet > since > > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > > remembers > > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > > her > > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > > with > > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > > and > > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years > ago), > > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > > that > > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > > yellow > > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, > approaching > > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney- liver > > yin > > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > > cold > > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings > and > > hot > > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with > kidney > > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in > the > > > afternoons. > > > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > > spur > > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen > has > > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex > Spur), > > but > > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > > effective? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews > at > > > Games. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 By the way the combination of shen jin cao, po bu zi ye and tou gu cao with vinegar is suggested to " dissolve " spurs but i have never seen documentation and never succeeded when trying to document with pre and post imaging. - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Monday, May 07, 2007 1:55 PM Re: bone spurs Alon, I wasn't thinking " reverse Morton's extension " it is just what you suggested to Yehuda. See your advice here. http://health.Chinese Medicine/mess age/24493 I still believe that, in the long run, ortho inserts are just bandaids and don't treat the root of anything. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Kelvin > A couple of more points. The treatment of choice for compensated forefoot varus (and with her having a " a flat foot " ) is a reverse morton's (perhaps you are thinking of morton's extension which would be contraindicated) or a K-wage. Reverse morton's is used in almost all pt with hallux limitus. My point on acute trauma is that this is another etiology that result in arthritic changes and that these pt respond differently than mechanical ones. > As far as bone spurs, they are definitely symptomatic when they result in pressure on neural tissues. > > > > > > > > > - > acupuncturebeverlyhills > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:46 PM > Re: bone spurs > > > Let me look at what you are trying to say. > > " A bone spur is only found in a patient with significant mechanical > stress " I had many bone spurs on my femur from lying in a hospital > bed for 11 months. So " only " should be avoided in this sentence, the > world is not so black and white. > > " The bone spur in completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. " Well > Mrs. So and So, seems that painful bone spur that keeps you from > walking actually is immaterial, now get up and do some walking on a > reverse Morton's ortho insert. (She is very over weight and as such, > most likely has Forefoot Varus, which is contra-indicated in a > reverse Morton's) > > " You can reduce symptoms with herbs both internally and externally > but you cannot get rid of the problem unless you treat the mechanics > of the foot that lead to it in the first place. " When did reducing > the symptoms become a bad thing? Treating the mechanics of a woman's > foot that is most likely forty pounds over weight and flat footed is > more about diet and leg muscle work (from Gluts, TFL on down ward) > and less giving inserts. > > " Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due to trauma and in some > of them you can treat it with herbs and acup and get rid or the > symptoms " Haven't quite figured out what you are trying to say here > but it seems you are going against what you already said about not > being able to fix the problem with external herbs. If you reread the > post then you will see that it started (she thinks) after jamming her > toe into a wall(trauma)while running barefoot. > > Anyhoo... I'm sure we would both come up with something completely > different if we actually saw the patient. lol > Thanks for the banter. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon Marcus " > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > I have treated many first MTP arthritis and i know what you suggest > will not result in pain free gait. A bone spur is only found in a > patient with significant mechanical stress. The bone spur in > completely immaterial to the pt symptoms. You can reduce symptoms > with herbs both internally and externally but you cannot get rid of > the problem unless you treat the mechanics of the foot that lead to > it in the first place. Saying that some pt develop MTP swelling due > to trauma and in some of them you can treat it with herbs and acup > and get rid or the symptoms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:08 PM > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > Didn't hear anyone say, " Don't treat the root problem! " > > Anyway, I never say never (opps, just said it twice). > > It will make the spur smaller and get her walking without pain, > > however. (stabbing a 28guage needle ito it usually clears it up). > > Making the pain go away is a good way to show how the medicine > works > > to get a commitment on treating the root problem. Sometimes if > you > > don't know the external herbal remedies and go the long way of > > treating a root problem, they give up before they are better, > > thinking of how much they spent for no results. > > > > Kelvin > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Alon > Marcus " > > <alonmarcus@> wrote: > > > > > > Just to point out that an arthritic MTP treated with herbs will > > never treat the root of the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > acupuncturebeverlyhills > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:32 PM > > > Re: bone spurs > > > > > > > > > Seems you got every answer except what you are looking for. > > > > > > Dieda Zhengtong Yaogao, also known as " 701 plaster " > > > This only for chronic non red/warm bone spurs.(if it's red/warm > > let > > > me now and I'll give you a plaster for that) > > > > > > You might want to work on her diet as well. > > > > > > Kelvin > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Andrea > Beth > > > Damsky <@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the > > feet. > > > In particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a > history > > of > > > swelling of her feet in warm weather that she remembers since > age > > > 12. The bone spur is in the first metatarsophylangeal joint of > > the > > > right foot (where the foot joint the big toe), and the joint is > > > obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit > > comfortably > > > difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in > shoes > > > that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet > since > > > childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she > > remembers > > > jamming this big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in > > her > > > early 20's, and believes this is the cause of the bone spur. > > > > > > > > Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, > > with > > > deficient spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs > > and > > > chronic phlegm heat in the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and > > > symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood - sore muscles that > > > occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years > ago), > > > varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue > > that > > > is puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly > > yellow > > > coat. She is currently experiencing irregular menses, > approaching > > > menopause. In recent years she has also exhibited kidney- liver > > yin > > > deficiency, generating internal wind with ocular migraines and > > > frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a tendency to be > > cold > > > or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the mornings > and > > hot > > > in the afternoons and evenings, but not always. > > > > > > > > Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with > kidney > > > pulse very deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, > > > between 80/50 and 96/60 in the mornings, and up to 110/70 in > the > > > afternoons. > > > > > > > > She is more interested in topical applications for the bone > > spur > > > than internal use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen > has > > > an herb formula which he claims will dissolve spurs (Flex > Spur), > > but > > > I am wondering if topical application of any herbs can also be > > > effective? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a PS3 game guru. > > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews > at > > > Games. > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 Hi A friend of mine who deals mostly with sports medecine, uses a small hammer, I am not sure of the name of it in english, to brake spurs (I only saw him use that tecnique on the back of the foot)then he adds a hand manipulation Tuina type with immediate results (one treatment). here is a link so you con see the hammer http://www.acupuntura.com.mx/Catalogo/701300.htm And if anybody knows the name in english, I would appreciate, and where to get them in the States. As far as TCM, the use of vinagar and moxa is useful as well but very slow, compared with that one treatment I mention. The vinagar needs to be tested first by putting an egg in it for 24 to 48 h. If the vinagar disolves the shell of the egg, it indicates is is good to help spurs. I have used apple or pinneapple vinagar homemade. Apply the vinagar on the area, and moxa will direct it to the inside, once dry repeat the operation 15 min daily. First the pain goes away, than treatment should continue to get rid of it. Good luck Gaal > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 They can resolve. Best, Sharon I think the question that needs to be asked is can a bone spur resorb. I don't think so. But I am not sure on this one. Bone spuring is an arthritic change brought out by mechanical stress, trauma or metabolic dysfunction. It is an excessive growth of bone. This is going to be very hard to cure. With that said, the mechanical stress, of being overweight with a bad gait, flat feet, etc. reinforces mechanical stress. Correcting structural issues (see podiatirst) may have some impact, it depends on where the bone spur exactly is and what it is irritating. I need to look at what is in John Chen's Flex Spur product. Can an herbal formula dissolve bone growth? I don't think so. When a bone spur is irritating enough I believe this is usually a surgery situation if nothing else can help it. I tend to look at this kind of situation in not very TCM terms. However, the reasons why she may have this issue with her feet probably has to do with constitutional and lifestyle imbalances. Treating it at that level may help in the long run. Alex Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 Thanks, Kelvin! acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: http://www.shopsuigetsu.com/701_Dieda_Zhengtong_Yaogao_Medicated_Plast er_p/suimed-701%20medicated%20plaster.htm or just google it. Kelvin Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell? Check outnew cars at Autos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 Sharon Do you have imaging you can show me thanks Alon sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote: They can resolve. Best, Sharon I think the question that needs to be asked is can a bone spur resorb. I don't think so. But I am not sure on this one. Bone spuring is an arthritic change brought out by mechanical stress, trauma or metabolic dysfunction. It is an excessive growth of bone. This is going to be very hard to cure. With that said, the mechanical stress, of being overweight with a bad gait, flat feet, etc. reinforces mechanical stress. Correcting structural issues (see podiatirst) may have some impact, it depends on where the bone spur exactly is and what it is irritating. I need to look at what is in John Chen's Flex Spur product. Can an herbal formula dissolve bone growth? I don't think so. When a bone spur is irritating enough I believe this is usually a surgery situation if nothing else can help it. I tend to look at this kind of situation in not very TCM terms. However, the reasons why she may have this issue with her feet probably has to do with constitutional and lifestyle imbalances. Treating it at that level may help in the long run. Alex Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 413-549-4021 sweiz www.whitepinehealingarts.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 Thanks! Very cool info about the moxa and vinegar. I don't know about that hammer treatment, though... gaaldoc <gaaldoc wrote: Hi A friend of mine who deals mostly with sports medecine, uses a small hammer, I am not sure of the name of it in english, to brake spurs (I only saw him use that tecnique on the back of the foot)then he adds a hand manipulation Tuina type with immediate results (one treatment). here is a link so you con see the hammer http://www.acupuntura.com.mx/Catalogo/701300.htm And if anybody knows the name in english, I would appreciate, and where to get them in the States. As far as TCM, the use of vinagar and moxa is useful as well but very slow, compared with that one treatment I mention. The vinagar needs to be tested first by putting an egg in it for 24 to 48 h. If the vinagar disolves the shell of the egg, it indicates is is good to help spurs. I have used apple or pinneapple vinagar homemade. Apply the vinagar on the area, and moxa will direct it to the inside, once dry repeat the operation 15 min daily. First the pain goes away, than treatment should continue to get rid of it. Good luck Gaal > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 8, 2007 its a chiropractic percussion Hammar or activator. - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:38 PM Re: Re: bone spurs Thanks! Very cool info about the moxa and vinegar. I don't know about that hammer treatment, though... gaaldoc <gaaldoc wrote: Hi A friend of mine who deals mostly with sports medecine, uses a small hammer, I am not sure of the name of it in english, to brake spurs (I only saw him use that tecnique on the back of the foot)then he adds a hand manipulation Tuina type with immediate results (one treatment). here is a link so you con see the hammer http://www.acupuntura.com.mx/Catalogo/701300.htm And if anybody knows the name in english, I would appreciate, and where to get them in the States. As far as TCM, the use of vinagar and moxa is useful as well but very slow, compared with that one treatment I mention. The vinagar needs to be tested first by putting an egg in it for 24 to 48 h. If the vinagar disolves the shell of the egg, it indicates is is good to help spurs. I have used apple or pinneapple vinagar homemade. Apply the vinagar on the area, and moxa will direct it to the inside, once dry repeat the operation 15 min daily. First the pain goes away, than treatment should continue to get rid of it. Good luck Gaal > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2007 Hi Beata, Thank you for your comments. The thenar eminence would be appropriate if the spur were on the underside of the foot in the heel area. However, this is on the top of the foot, right in the area encircled by Liv-2, Liv-3, Sp-2 and Sp-3. It is a very bony area, and the analagous bony area on the hand would be the bony area/joint where the thumb joins the wrist, bordered by Lu-10, LI-4, LI-5, and Lu-9. The joint on the foot is more prominent and less protected (more accessible) than the analagous hand joint, and I am a bit perplexed as to how to needle it (the hand joint) - any suggestions? What orthotics do you have your patients use? Thank you, Andrea Beth coastacu wrote: Andrea, I have had results nothing short of seemingly miraculous when I treat bone spurs with a combination of orthotics and Dr. Tan's technique and herbal medicine. One or the other alone won't do it. I agree with Alon, one must address the root of the problem, a structural imbalance, with good orthotics. The actual spur can then be treated with opposite side/opposite appendage treatment, ie needling the thenar eminence and Ah Shi points in this area. The key seems to be frequent treatment initially. I will see a patient 2 to 3 times a week for 2 to 3 weeks, then back off of frequency of treatment. Also, I use Evergreen's Flex Spur formula which is excellent. Beata Booth Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
