Bone spurs

February 2, 2005

Hi Janet,

Corydalis Ct. -- that's cool.

Richard Tan(his book is Twelve and Twelve in Acupuncture) likes to use mu guan

and gu guan - located just distal to the wrist on hand contralateral to the

painful foot. They are just distal to wrist crease, the former 0.5 cun distal to

prominence of pisiform bone(Ah shi location is appropriate) and the other is in

the depression about 0.5 cun distal to the prominence of the scaphoid bone. He

uses them for " bone swelling " , heel pain and/or spur(as well as swollen joints

and RA throughout the body).

In the book he gives a case report of a woman with painful multi-spiked heel

spur, whom he treated with these points successfully. " Progress was steady and

after 13 treatments, the pain was virtually gone. Two more consolidating

treatments were performed. Patient reported no recurrence of the problem for a

follow-up period of six months. She returned to the orthopedic surgeon, and

x-rays then showed a reduction of excess calcium buildup, and only a slight

rounded protuberance in the calcaneus. "

Dr. Tan's books can be ordered. Moderately priced.

I've found a lot of his points really do seem to work. They are derived, i

believe, from Master Tong's Acupuncture(a book of that name by Miriam Lee was

printed by Blue Poppy, but may be out of print.)

Hope it heelps:-)

ann

Has anyone treated bone spurs on the calcaneus? This is a long-time Pt of

mine who began having foot pain after walking (not during) and had an

radiograph confirm that she has a bone spur off the plantar tendon.

Any help with herbs or needling?

Janet Yelowchan, LAc, LPC, LAC

Medicine Buddha Clinic

1533 Corydalis Ct.

Fort Collins, CO 80526

970.494.1120

www.bluebuddha.net

February 3, 2005

In a new book by Tom Bisio on TCM and sports medicine (specifically

trauma medicine), he gives a formula for bone spurs. I have not

tried it yet, but it might be of some use. Let me know if it works.

30g Shu di

30g Lu xian cao (hb pyrolae rotundifoliae)

30g gu sui bu

30g rou cong rong

30g ji xue teng

30g yin yang huo

30g lai fu zi

-Steve

>Has anyone treated bone spurs on the calcaneus? This is a long-time Pt of

>mine who began having foot pain after walking (not during) and had an

>radiograph confirm that she has a bone spur off the plantar tendon.

>

>Any help with herbs or needling?

>

>Janet Yelowchan, LAc, LPC, LAC

>

>Medicine Buddha Clinic

>

>1533 Corydalis Ct.

>

>Fort Collins, CO 80526

>

>970.494.1120

>

>www.bluebuddha.net

>

February 4, 2005

Hi Janet,

I have treated patients with plantar fasciitis who also has bonw spurs with

acupuncture at KI-3, UB-60, and also directly into the heel at the tendon

attachment, with excellent results. Pain was relieved after a few sessions, but

the patients left and didn't return, so I don't know if the bone spurs

disappeared. Good luck with this.

" Janet Yelowchan, LAc, LPC, LAC " <janet wrote:

Has anyone treated bone spurs on the calcaneus? This is a long-time Pt of

mine who began having foot pain after walking (not during) and had an

radiograph confirm that she has a bone spur off the plantar tendon.

Any help with herbs or needling?

Janet Yelowchan, LAc, LPC, LAC

Medicine Buddha Clinic

1533 Corydalis Ct.

Fort Collins, CO 80526

970.494.1120

www.bluebuddha.net

February 5, 2005

bonw spurs

>>>>By the way bone spurs at the heel have nothing to do with pain. Heel pain is

not more common in patients with bone spurs. The elimination of the bone spur

should not be the goal when treating plantar fasciitis.

February 5, 2005

Alon,

This is an interesting idea. Would you please elaborate? I have a heel pain pt

right now.

We'd been assuming it was plantar fasciitis, since the pain only came w/

prolonged

standing/walking and couldn't be reproduced with palpation or pressure. She'd

been

getting a lot of relief from acupuncture. She then saw a podiatrist, got an

x-ray, and was

told she had a large bone spur and would need surgery. From what you're saying

it seems

like she may have both and the pain is from the p.f. not the spur. So surgery to

remove the

spur--which, thankfully, she isn't anxious to do--wouldn't help the pain.

--Sarah Rivkin

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

> bonw spurs

> >>>>By the way bone spurs at the heel have nothing to do with pain. Heel pain

is not

more common in patients with bone spurs. The elimination of the bone spur should

not be

the goal when treating plantar fasciitis.

>

February 6, 2005

bone spur and would need surgery

>>>The bone spur is just a sign of poor foot techniques resulting in tension on

the ligament. if you look at the x-ray you will notice that the spur is

horizontal to the ground. Its not like you are walking on a sharp bone. Any

ligament undergoing abnormal stress develops calcification. Just like in the

spine, bone spurs do not cause pain unless they result in compression of pain

generating tissues

June 2, 2005

I see that there was a brief exchange about this is February, but I

welcome more advice. How useful are orthotics, change of habits,

exercise, acupuncture, and topical treatment? How can we get the most

relief from the least treatment?

Jonah

, Jonah <jonah@e...> wrote:

> If anyone with clinical experience treating old, stubborn, and

painful bony

> spurs at the calcaneum would share it I would be grateful.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Jonah

> --

> Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f

>

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June 2, 2005

and painful bony

spurs

>>>>The pain is not from bone spur, its the plantar fascia

Oakland, CA 94609

June 2, 2005

How useful are orthotics, change of habits,

exercise, acupuncture, and topical treatment? How can we get the most

relief from the least treatment?

>>>:>If the cause is bio-mechanics orthotics are essential and 80% of the time

or so resolve the pain. With other treatments the % can be increased

Oakland, CA 94609

June 3, 2005

I have seen the reverse in a couple of situations where the orthodics no

longer matched the patient. One woman that I worked with in a chiro clinic

(I did tui na) had very bad alignment. When her knees were brought in

contact her lower leg was at a 45 degree angle away from midline. I did

some extreme stretching of the IT band along the outer GB channel and we

brought her anles into contact. This was extreme and happened in one

session while the chiro had her on orthodics and treatment for a long time

with no results. She cried afterward, not because of the pain but of joy.

She could now walk without the usage of her cane. I suggested that she

discuss the issue of whether or not her current orthodics were further

needed, as they were for a person with extreme bowing of the lower

extremities, which she was no longer. Her chiro got upset and ended my

participation in that clinic. Orthodics can cause the person's body to

become lazy and codependent on them. So caution on constant reliance.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <alonmarcus

>

>Re: Re: Bone spurs

>Thu, 2 Jun 2005 20:24:21 -0700

>

>How useful are orthotics, change of habits,

>exercise, acupuncture, and topical treatment? How can we get the most

>relief from the least treatment?

> >>>:>If the cause is bio-mechanics orthotics are essential and 80% of the

>time or so resolve the pain. With other treatments the % can be increased

>

>Oakland, CA 94609

>

June 3, 2005

chiro had her on orthodics and treatment for a long time

with no results.

>>>>Mike not to devalue chiros, but there are very few that know how to do

orthotics well. Also, there are very few DPMs that know orthotics well.And as

always, these small number citations have very little meaning.I have treated

many without orthotics as well. But if the cause is biomechanical in the

majority of patients there is no resolution without them

Oakland, CA 94609

June 3, 2005

Alon,

By the same token, orthodics should not be relied upon long term or one

becomes dependent upon them and the body does not develop strength as

needed. They can be used as a part of care but not the entirety of care.

Just curious who you think is the expert if not the DPM or DC as to usage of

orthodics.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <alonmarcus

>

>Re: Re: Bone spurs

>Fri, 3 Jun 2005 09:08:33 -0700

>

>chiro had her on orthodics and treatment for a long time

>with no results.

> >>>>Mike not to devalue chiros, but there are very few that know how to do

>orthotics well. Also, there are very few DPMs that know orthotics well.And

>as always, these small number citations have very little meaning.I have

>treated many without orthotics as well. But if the cause is biomechanical

>in the majority of patients there is no resolution without them

>

>Oakland, CA 94609

>

June 3, 2005

Just curious who you think is the expert if not the DPM or DC as to usage of

orthodics.

>>>>>Most DPMs are more interested in surgery, but some of the best biomec guys

are DPMs. I know of a few very good DCs as well. Its more about interest and

training. Most DPMs and DC do not get good training in the use of orthotics and

many even use foam to make casts. Some of the best i have seen are PTs.Knowing

how to prescribe for gait patterns takes many hundreds of hours of training.

Most do not put the time.Very few have gait labs.

Oakland, CA 94609

June 3, 2005

A salient symptom of plantar fasciitis is pain after prolonged sitting

or when getting up in the morning. This is primarily due to breaking

of adhesion which forms while the foot is at rest..

Personally, I think that acupuncture is not that effective for this

condition. In my experience the best treatment protocol is to have the

patient avoid being barefoot at all cost. While wearing shoes the pt

should have heel inserts. Most often than not, patients are adviced by

their DP to wear arch supports. This is not helpful. The idea is to

elevate the heel and to avoid stretching the fascia while it heals.

I've heard female pts say their feet often feel better after wearing

high-heel shoes.

The best treatment I've found so far for heel spur is the vinegar

treatment with electrical stimulation. The patient puts the foot in

question in a pan filled with vinegar (the black Chinese vinegar).

At the bottom of the pan rests a lead plate. The foot is placed over

the lead plate which is submerged in the pan filled with vinegar. The

patient is sitting down. On top of the knee, another lead plate is

placed with a paper towel soaked in salt water..Electrical

stimulation, DC, is applied between the two plates with the negative

alligator clip attached to the bottom lead plate and the positive to

the top lead plate which rests on the paper towel soaked in salt

water. As I write this, I wonder if a decotion of Wei Ling Xian added

to the vinegar soak would be more effective.. Don't know.

The treament is only done a couple of times. Three at most. It seems

that more tx can injure the heel bone itself.

As I understand it, the electrolytic solution, mainly the vinegar,

penetrates the tissue through iontophoresis and gradually disolves the

calcification on the fascia/bone attachement.

I've done this procedure a few times with satisfactory results..As in

most cases, I have not been able to follow up to see whether the

condition recurred or the healing was permanent.

I agree with Alon in that proper biomechanics is the solution to this

condition and should be the focus during treatment.

fernando

ps. Don't forget to stick a needle or two somewhere in the leg so you

get paid..)

, " saydit " <saydit@e...>

> We'd been assuming it was plantar fasciitis, since the pain only

came w/ prolonged

> standing/walking and couldn't be reproduced with palpation or

pressure. She'd been

> getting a lot of relief from acupuncture. She then saw a podiatrist,

got an x-ray, and was

> told she had a large bone spur and would need surgery. From what

you're saying it seems

> like she may have both and the pain is from the p.f. not the spur.

So surgery to remove the

> spur--which, thankfully, she isn't anxious to do--wouldn't help the

pain.

>

> --Sarah Rivkin

>

> , " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> > bonw spurs

> > >>>>By the way bone spurs at the heel have nothing to do with

pain. Heel pain is not

> more common in patients with bone spurs. The elimination of the bone

spur should not be

> the goal when treating plantar fasciitis.

> >

June 3, 2005

ps. Don't forget to stick a needle or two somewhere in the leg so you

get paid..)

>>>>I see you do that as well

Oakland, CA 94609

June 3, 2005

Frenando

A heel lift will only help one with a short heel cord, it can make it worse if

one has sig subtalar pronation.

Oakland, CA 94609

August 24, 2006

I had a small spur on my forefinger main knuckle.

My son told me to knock real hard on wood.

Doc said he'd help by hitting it with a book.

He got rid of one years ago when a chiropractor told him to just hit it

with a book.

I liked my son's idea the best so gave it a good whack against my

wooden coffee table. It hurt for a minute or two but was completely

gone instantly. The next morning the soreness was even gone.

Vinegar does dissolve inorganic calcium from joints. That's why we put

it in the Body Balance+ (formerly called Panther Piss.

Valorie

herbal remedies , " Trina " <laurel1614 wrote:

>

> I just wanted to say thanks. My mother used apple cider vinager-your

> suggestion-to get rid of bone spurs. Worked like magic!

>

August 24, 2006

I had a small spur on my forefinger main knuckle.

My son told me to knock real hard on wood.

Doc said he'd help by hitting it with a book.

He got rid of one years ago when a chiropractor told him to just hit it

with a book.

I liked my son's idea the best so gave it a good whack against my

wooden coffee table. It hurt for a minute or two but was completely

gone instantly. The next morning the soreness was even gone.

Vinegar does dissolve inorganic calcium from joints. That's why we put

it in the Body Balance+ (formerly called Panther Piss.

Valorie

herbal remedies , " Trina " <laurel1614 wrote:

>

> I just wanted to say thanks. My mother used apple cider vinager-your

> suggestion-to get rid of bone spurs. Worked like magic!

>

August 25, 2006

Re vinegar in the Body Balance... What about someone who has candida issues and vinegar would feed the candida? Is there an alternative or is it still OK to use the Body Balance?

Jan

herbal remedies [herbal remedies ] On Behalf Of valorieshillingtonThursday, August 24, 2006 2:19 PMherbal remedies Subject: Herbal Remedies - Re: Bone Spurs

I had a small spur on my forefinger main knuckle.My son told me to knock real hard on wood.Doc said he'd help by hitting it with a book.He got rid of one years ago when a chiropractor told him to just hit it with a book.I liked my son's idea the best so gave it a good whack against my wooden coffee table. It hurt for a minute or two but was completely gone instantly. The next morning the soreness was even gone.Vinegar does dissolve inorganic calcium from joints. That's why we put it in the Body Balance+ (formerly called Panther Piss.Valorieherbal remedies , "Trina" <laurel1614 wrote:>> I just wanted to say thanks. My mother used apple cider vinager-your> suggestion-to get rid of bone spurs. Worked like magic!>

May 6, 2007

Hi Andrea Beth,

I would refer you to a discussion we had in this group on heel spurs I believe

around January.

Good luck,

Yehuda

< wrote:

Hi All,

I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. In particular,

the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of swelling of her feet in

warm weather that she remembers since age 12. The bone spur is in the first

metatarsophylangeal joint of the right foot (where the foot joint the big toe),

and the joint is obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that fit

comfortably difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in shoes

that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since childhood.

Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers jamming this big toe

into a wall while running barefoot once in her early 20's, and believes this is

the cause of the bone spur.

Constitutionally, she is overweight at 5'2 " and 165 pounds, with deficient

spleen, kidney and lung qi, phlegm damp in the lungs and chronic phlegm heat in

the sinuses. She also exhibits signs and symptoms of stagnant liver qi and blood

- sore muscles that occasionally cramp (diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years

ago), varicose veins, and emotional irritability with a dusky tongue that is

puffy, with a medium-thickness, slightly dry and slightly yellow coat. She is

currently experiencing irregular menses, approaching menopause. In recent years

she has also exhibited kidney-liver yin deficiency, generating internal wind

with ocular migraines and frequent headaches in summer and fall. She has a

tendency to be cold or overheated (when running low-grade fevers) in the

mornings and hot in the afternoons and evenings, but not always.

Her pulse is slightly rapid, weak, small, and soft with kidney pulse very

deficient. Her blood pressure has always been low, between 80/50 and 96/60 in

the mornings, and up to 110/70 in the afternoons.

She is more interested in topical applications for the bone spur than internal

use of herbs. Any suggestions? I know John Chen has an herb formula which he

claims will dissolve spurs (Flex Spur), but I am wondering if topical

application of any herbs can also be effective?

Thank you,

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games.

May 6, 2007

Yehuda

this sounds very different than the heel spurs we discussed. Mechanically this

pt must have their first ray controlled probably with addition of a reverse

Morton's extension to allow the first MTP to flex. A firm shoe with a rocker

bottom with help as well

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:25 AM

Re: bone spurs

Hi Andrea Beth,

I would refer you to a discussion we had in this group on heel spurs I believe

around January.

Good luck,

Yehuda

< wrote:

Hi All,

I am interested in topical treatments for bone spurs in the feet. In

particular, the patient is a 50-year old female with a history of swelling of

her feet in warm weather that she remembers since age 12. The bone spur is in

the first metatarsophylangeal joint of the right foot (where the foot joint the

big toe), and the joint is obviously enlarged and makes purchasing shoes that

fit comfortably difficult. There is also pain in the joint after walking in

shoes that don't have enough arch support. She has had flat feet since

childhood. Lastly, related to the foot particularly, she remembers jamming this

big toe into a wall while running barefoot once in her early 20's, and believes

this is the cause of the bone spur.