Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I would like to ad a couple of things to this discussion . Firstly there a big difference between Rage and Anger. Rage, like road rage etc is an expression of powerlessness while anger is usually the healthy expression to a boundary being crossed. When I start to treat a patient if they come back and tell me they are feeling a lot more anger I know their wood element is coming back to life and they are getting better. 5 Element acupuncture aims to help a person grow and change. So in that case my job is help the patient have this renewed emotion without dumping it on others or feeling overwhelm etc. When J.R. Worsley would teach he would often say "5 Element is simple compared to other styles, to get better - develop your self" So to me what is important is what is my relationship to anger. I am scared of it? Do I feel shame? Etc. I can only take a patient where I feel safe to go my self. This is to me what our patients need from us, the strength to let them drop down into these places and really change. And of course the ability to keep my anger out the treatment room !! ... Gye Gye Bennetts Five Element Acupuncture5 Element Information Site www.members.optusnet.com.au/~5element The Angry HealerCan a healer given to unpredictable rage be able to listen patiently whenthe client prevaricates, or does not respond quick enough, or becomesirregular, or unconsciously does and says things which can aggravate andirritate, all the while being weak and vulnerable and needing a stable,patientand calm helping hand?There is so much anger these days, in so many walks of life, which soeasily turns to rage.There is road rage, airplane rage, domesticate rage, workplace rage,school rage, even checkout line rage, and parking lot rage.Are we at a time, where the next level, of healer rage, is on the horizon?Or, more horribly, it has already arrived?Or the lesser evil, healer anger? Or even, the situation where the healer isangry with another situation, or is apt to become angry, is veering onrage, and then ventures to heal?Ours is an ancient art, which requires from us a great deal more, ashealers, because of the nature of its construct, which works with Earthenergies, rather than medications.If one tends to anger, one is in imbalance. If to rage, one is ill. In bothcasesrecognition of what is happening, is paramount. Healing is in the knowing ofill health.As years proceed, more and more people are opting to traditional medicine.And in some sense, they are, in asking more from the healing, are alsoexpecting more from the healer.For them a disappointment in one healer may very well become adisappointment the whole system.In which case the thirsty one will be so, even in an oasis.Dr.. Holmes KeikobadMB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZwww.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and healthprofessionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 [From the Wheel of Emotions, By Dr. Holmes Keikobad. Copyright 2000 Tru Self Inc. Reproduced by Courtesy Tru Self Inc.] Anger rises, but if Righteous, can recede. This does not harm, and can protect and remain in honor. Such an Anger has come to terms with Fear Its dark corridors and dank Cold tunnels in a barren Earth. It has felt the incising edge of Grief And has faced in courage the cuts of crule Destiny. Such an Anger will dissolve into the Heart Whence will arise the joys of living Red and crimson and mottled with Gold. Such an Anger will never reach out and strangle And cause all to cease in the Mires of Damp Obsessing. Such an Anger will make what it touches And never mar, never scar. Such an Anger has a Surrogate, a hidden silent page In the Book of the Wheel of Emotions ... Known to the Weak as Rampant Rage. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Hi Gye, I would also like to add 2 points to your response. I was consistently misdiagnosed by Jr. & his son in law may they rest in peace. I was subsequently also treated by 2 of his foremost students both masters of acupuncture. For a number of years. they all dignosed me as a wood C.F. and tonified my Liver for many years. They turned me into an extremely sick man who would experience a lot of anger which added to their beleif that they were doing the right thing by me. Jst as an aside I am an extremely healthy person this days Last year I treated a patient who wanted her excema cured. This I did, one of the side efects of my treatments was that her anger subsided and she was a more pleasant woman to be with. I agree with you that anger and rage are totally separate however, I am also aware That most people confuse the two, especially patients and I daresay a large number of acupuncturists. Salvador www.merdian-qi-acupuncture >I would like to ad a couple of things to this discussion . > >Firstly there a big difference between Rage and Anger. Rage, like road >rage etc is an expression of powerlessness while anger is usually the >healthy expression to a boundary being crossed. > >When I start to treat a patient if they come back and tell me they are >feeling a lot more anger I know their wood element is coming back to life >and they are getting better. > >5 Element acupuncture aims to help a person grow and change. So in that >case my job is help the patient have this renewed emotion without dumping >it on others or feeling overwhelm etc. > >When J.R. Worsley would teach he would often say " 5 Element is simple >compared to other styles, to get better - develop your self " > >So to me what is important is what is my relationship to anger. I am >scared of it? Do I feel shame? Etc. I can only take a patient where I feel >safe to go my self. > >This is to me what our patients need from us, the strength to let them drop >down into these places and really change. > >And of course the ability to keep my anger out the treatment room !! ... > >Gye > >Gye Bennetts Five Element Acupuncture >5 Element Information Site www.members.optusnet.com.au/~5element > > > > >The Angry Healer > >Can a healer given to unpredictable rage be able to listen patiently when >the client prevaricates, or does not respond quick enough, or becomes >irregular, or unconsciously does and says things which can aggravate and >irritate, all the while being weak and vulnerable and needing a stable, >patient >and calm helping hand? > >There is so much anger these days, in so many walks of life, which so >easily turns to rage. > >There is road rage, airplane rage, domesticate rage, workplace rage, >school rage, even checkout line rage, and parking lot rage. > >Are we at a time, where the next level, of healer rage, is on the horizon? >Or, more horribly, it has already arrived? > >Or the lesser evil, healer anger? Or even, the situation where the healer >is >angry with another situation, or is apt to become angry, is veering on >rage, and then ventures to heal? > >Ours is an ancient art, which requires from us a great deal more, as >healers, because of the nature of its construct, which works with Earth >energies, rather than medications. > >If one tends to anger, one is in imbalance. If to rage, one is ill. In both >cases >recognition of what is happening, is paramount. Healing is in the knowing >of >ill health. > >As years proceed, more and more people are opting to traditional medicine. >And in some sense, they are, in asking more from the healing, are also >expecting more from the healer. > >For them a disappointment in one healer may very well become a >disappointment the whole system. > >In which case the thirsty one will be so, even in an oasis. > >Dr.. Holmes Keikobad >MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ >www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health >professionals > > > _______________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 What is Anger, is the low tide, of what it will become, Rage. Both are born of Heat in the snarled roots of Wood. Anger is Righteous when meted out in measure And it becomes the protective, bounteous treasure. Anger is Rising when it rises by itself And becomes Rage when finally free of the Cage Of reason and treason and gore and grind Of what comes next, or what is carnage behind. When Anger has lost all memory of itself It turns the empty, stark page, And becomes, irrevocably, Rampant Rage. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Chinese Medicine , " Gye Bennetts " <5element@o...> wrote: > Firstly there a big difference between Rage and Anger. Rage, like road rage etc is an expression of powerlessness while anger is usually the healthy expression to a boundary being crossed. > Hi Gye, Please: View - Encoding - Chinese Traditional (Big5). The Chinese term «ã nu, translated as " anger, fury, rage " , means the ¤ß 'feeling' of a ¥£ 'slave' (the ¤S 'hand' over a ¤k 'woman'), the sentiment of somebody being under the power of someone else. Don't forget that 2004 will be a wooden year (Green Monkey) - Jia- Shen¥Ò¥Ó. And because Shen ¥Ó is Metal, " the tree won't grow well under the axe " . Laurentiu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Hi, This raises a question that I have been puzzling over, as I try to understand more about Five Element acupuncture. I send this question out to the Group. Where can I get information on just what the overlap, or distinction is, between Five Element and psycho-therapy? To say that the purpose of 5E is to help a patient grow and change suggests to me an emotional growth that could involve changes on the level of psychic landscape -- the confronting of old griefs and wounds, perhaps even the re-living of old traumas. How do you provide the support needed for such profound emotional work? What if the patient has flashbacks, or dissociates? Or, in other words, how do you keep the patient's emotion contained so that it *doesn't* overwhelm? What do you do if it overwhelms the patient, or if it overwhelms the practitioner? I haven't begun my reading of Worsley's books yet, but are there any articles anyone would recommend? I would be grateful for anyone's generosity in commenting, too! With my thanks - And Peace and Wellness to you all, Marie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 [Laurentiu: Don't forget that 2004 will be a wooden year (Green Monkey) - Jia- Shen¥Ò¥Ó. And because Shen ¥Ó is Metal, " the tree won't grow well under the axe " .] Enigmatic! Can you talk a little more about 2004 in these terms? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Marie wrote: I haven't begun my reading of Worsley's books yet, but are there any articles anyone would recommend? I would be grateful for anyone's generosity in commenting, too! > I am generous and can and will comment :-). The approach in the two disciplines is different. Psycho-analysis sets up the practitioner over and above the patient, and is presumed not to have an ass of nickel with a body of gold [indian saying]. He or she runs tests and calibrators and hums and nods and sits cross legged, frowning, smiling, hands clasped, in approbation, or distant disapproval. The patient has to toe the line, and can at best come across as 'disjointed, now mending'. The TCM guy or gal or alien being does nothing of the sort. He or she pops needles, gives herbs, or something, to bring about a " harmony: No more, no less. What the patient does with it is not the healer's business. And the TCM healer is expected to be in some sort of sensible shape harmony-wise. One can't have tendencies of a serial killer and then heal [being funny, just]. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Irascible. The TCM translators come up with some darling names. I never knew that I was ever irascible. I may have been pissed off, annoyed, ticked off, upset, pushed to the left, sent windward, become irritable, short, peremptory, precipitate, et al, but never irascible. Irascible. Sounds like being stewed in a crucible. For that matter we the users an coiners of Anglo-Saxon from all the far corners of the world, with not much of Saxon left, it died with Harold's enucleated eye, also come up with nouns and pronouns and adverbs of the odd sort; like the one, 'pissed off'. Mind you, one has to be off when pissed, being in a state of 'on' won't do. How does this equate to being angry? Howard: Honey, where are my favorite jockey shorts, the ones Mom gave me for Christmas 10 years ago, and which I love to wear constantly? Annabelle: O honey I threw them away, they were nearly becoming like cardboard with the same hue, and I got you some new ones in New Age purple! Howard: Honey, I am Irascible, grrrrr. Annabel: What is that? Howard: I am pissed off. Annabelle: O. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 The problem with Jack Worsley is that he blended various approaches under the umbrella of 5 elements: For example, his " Law of cure " comes directly from Homeopathy, he also used a lot of techniques of psychotherapy, without telling his student that this was psychotherapy. A gifted practitioner, he was trying to teach what in his view worked, but sometimes left his student and colleagues from other schools of thought more than slightly perplexed An other question is an acupuncturist is not trained as a psychotherapist (well, a few are) and should well remember their limits. regards, PJ On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 08:46 am, Marie Henson wrote: > Hi, > > This raises a question that I have been puzzling over, as I try to > understand more about Five Element acupuncture. I send this > question out to the Group. Where can I get information on just what > the > overlap, or distinction is, between Five Element and psycho-therapy? > > To say that the purpose of 5E is to help a patient grow and change > suggests to me an emotional growth that could involve changes on the > level of psychic landscape -- the confronting of old griefs and wounds, > perhaps even the re-living of old traumas. > > How do you provide the support needed for such profound emotional > work? > What if the patient has flashbacks, or dissociates? > > Or, in other words, how do you keep the patient's emotion contained so > that it *doesn't* overwhelm? What do you do if it overwhelms the > patient, > or if it overwhelms the practitioner? > > I haven't begun my reading of Worsley's books yet, but are there any > articles anyone would recommend? I would be grateful for anyone's > generosity in commenting, too! > > With my thanks - > And Peace and Wellness to you all, > Marie > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groupsí homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ëedit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > <image.tiff> > > <image.tiff> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Well congratulation Dr K, you have learned something about the english language today May be Santa Claus will bring you the Oxford dictionary or the Roget's Thesaurus for Christmas. [and Ch'i Po asked " is there more to life than TCM? " The emperor answered: ..dunno! ] Regards, PJ On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 01:44 pm, dr. k wrote: > Irascible. > > The TCM translators come up with some darling names. I never knew > that I was ever irascible. I may have been pissed off, annoyed, ticked > off, upset, pushed to the left, sent windward, become irritable, short, > peremptory, precipitate, et al, but never irascible. > > Irascible. Sounds like being stewed in a crucible. > > For that matter we the users an coiners of Anglo-Saxon from all the far > corners > of the world, with not much of Saxon left, it died with Harold's > enucleated > eye, also come up with nouns and pronouns and adverbs of the odd sort; > like the one, 'pissed off'. > > Mind you, one has to be off when pissed, being in a state of 'on' > won't do. > How does this equate to being angry? > > Howard: Honey, where are my favorite jockey shorts, the ones Mom gave > me > for Christmas 10 years ago, and which I love to wear constantly? > > Annabelle: O honey I threw them away, they were nearly becoming like > cardboard > with the same hue, and I got you some new ones in New Age purple! > > Howard: Honey, I am Irascible, grrrrr. > > Annabel: What is that? > > Howard: I am pissed off. > > Annabelle: O. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and > health > professionals > > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > <image.tiff> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 One can't have tendencies of a serial killer and then heal [being funny, just]. Wasn't Miloscewicz a psychiatrist before he seized control of Serbia? What was he really doing before then? Pat ============================================================================== NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the information. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ============================================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Sexist, too. Irascible seems to be applied only to men. Hysterical is what gets applied to women. Both when angry. Pat Irascible. The TCM translators come up with some darling names. I never knew that I was ever irascible. I may have been pissed off, annoyed, ticked off, upset, pushed to the left, sent windward, become irritable, short, peremptory, precipitate, et al, but never irascible. Irascible. Sounds like being stewed in a crucible. For that matter we the users an coiners of Anglo-Saxon from all the far corners of the world, with not much of Saxon left, it died with Harold's enucleated eye, also come up with nouns and pronouns and adverbs of the odd sort; like the one, 'pissed off'. Mind you, one has to be off when pissed, being in a state of 'on' won't do. How does this equate to being angry? Howard: Honey, where are my favorite jockey shorts, the ones Mom gave me for Christmas 10 years ago, and which I love to wear constantly? Annabelle: O honey I threw them away, they were nearly becoming like cardboard with the same hue, and I got you some new ones in New Age purple! Howard: Honey, I am Irascible, grrrrr. Annabel: What is that? Howard: I am pissed off. Annabelle: O. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals ============================================================================== NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the information. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ============================================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 PJ: Well congratulation Dr K, you have learned something about the english language today May be Santa Claus will bring you the Oxford dictionary or the Roget's Thesaurus for Christmas. [and Ch'i Po asked " is there more to life than TCM? " The emperor answered: ..dunno! ] > In my earlier life I was the barely barefoot boy always looking for hand-me-down books to get by, and I did my medicine on shared library texts, and drawing diagrams on sheets of laundry wrapping paper, which a sympathetic washer man gave me; when I graduated, I went to him to thank him for his support, and he wept tears of gratitude, as though I were his kin; my kin, who did not weep other than reptilian lachrymation, getting set to exploit the gold mine, which a new doctor is, in the hoary East. Much later in life there came a time when I could purchase books, even to a moderate degree. And I did, going from the profligate, to the prudent, avoiding practical, because one should not be that when looking for books. Most of my days I did well with a marvelously crafted, abridged Webster, which Webster wrote standing on a bridge with his lover; a small, well intentioned book of several hundred pages with all kinds of meanings an uncertain world will have you look for, at a moment's notice. Then one fateful day, I found myself fronting a sea of books in a wide bin, in a Cosco sort of shop, in downtown Phoenix. There I spied at a large, fat, very red, very gold, Webster, the grand-daddy of the smaller version. It asked 12 dollars to be parted with, and it would agree to come home with me and be part of my little family. The critical coin was counted, and She came home, the Book called Webster. I rarely use it, the little Blue is still the one referred to; but I often look at her as She stands on the shelf, ready to solve all riddles made by men and mad mice. I would, to Roget's but there is something wrong with the name, I mean Thesaurus; sounds like there may be a Theocratical Tyrannosaurus which may pop out from the pages. Oxford I cannot take to for the moment, there is a matter of George the III and Paul Revere. And I never liked the real Oxford, because the blue blooded boffers could buy legions of books and not read them and become Peer with the Garter on the Sleeve. But thanks for the Chi Po insight, I bet he did say that; I mean, 81 questions and all, and all real guessers. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Pat: Wasn't Miloscewicz a psychiatrist before he seized control of Serbia? What was he really doing before then? > Getting seizures in Croatia. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Pat: Sexist, too. Irascible seems to be applied only to men. Hysterical is what gets applied to women. Both when angry. > Which leads to a fatal continuation: Annabelle: Howy honey, have you seen Mommy dear? She is not in the balcony seat and not in the kitchen nor in the drawing room where she favors your favorite sofa, so sweet of the darling to come and stay with us forever. Howard: She was leaning over the balcony shooing the birds and I tipped her over, dear, on a whim and a fancy, my precious, you will find her splattered all over the sidewalk and parked cars 12 stories below.. Annabelle: Howard. Howard: What dear? Annabelle: I am hysterical. Howard: OK. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2003 Report Share Posted December 20, 2003 Well take it easy man! my point was that there are other things in life that . Where is your sense of humour (English: being funny)? may be you only have a sense of Humor ( English: body fluids) Ha ha I think this is funny! Life is not always that serious. You were the one ranting about people using " irascible " in the first place. Best regards and merry Christmas PJ On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 03:27 pm, dr. k wrote: > PJ: Well congratulation Dr K, you have learned something about the > english > language today > May be Santa Claus will bring you the Oxford dictionary or the Roget's > Thesaurus for Christmas. > [and Ch'i Po asked " is there more to life than TCM? " > The emperor answered: ..dunno! ] >> > In my earlier life I was the barely barefoot boy always looking for > hand-me-down books > to get by, and I did my medicine on shared library texts, and drawing > diagrams on > sheets of laundry wrapping paper, which a sympathetic washer man gave > me; > when > I graduated, I went to him to thank him for his support, and he wept > tears > of gratitude, > as though I were his kin; my kin, who did not weep other than reptilian > lachrymation, > getting set to exploit the gold mine, which a new doctor is, in the > hoary > East. > > Much later in life there came a time when I could purchase books, even > to a > moderate > degree. And I did, going from the profligate, to the prudent, avoiding > practical, because > one should not be that when looking for books. > > Most of my days I did well with a marvelously crafted, abridged > Webster, > which > Webster wrote standing on a bridge with his lover; a small, well > intentioned > book > of several hundred pages with all kinds of meanings an uncertain world > will > have you look for, at a moment's notice. > > Then one fateful day, I found myself fronting a sea of books in a wide > bin, > in a > Cosco sort of shop, in downtown Phoenix. > > There I spied at a large, fat, very red, very gold, Webster, the > grand-daddy > of the > smaller version. It asked 12 dollars to be parted with, and it would > agree > to come > home with me and be part of my little family. > > The critical coin was counted, and She came home, the Book called > Webster. > > I rarely use it, the little Blue is still the one referred to; but I > often > look at her > as She stands on the shelf, ready to solve all riddles made by men and > mad mice. > > I would, to Roget's but there is something wrong with the name, I mean > Thesaurus; > sounds like there may be a Theocratical Tyrannosaurus which may pop out > from the pages. > > Oxford I cannot take to for the moment, there is a matter of George > the III > and > Paul Revere. And I never liked the real Oxford, because the blue > blooded > boffers > could buy legions of books and not read them and become Peer with the > Garter > on the Sleeve. > > But thanks for the Chi Po insight, I bet he did say that; I mean, 81 > questions and all, > and all real guessers. > > Dr. Holmes Keikobad > MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ > www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and > health > professionals > > > > Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, > religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear. > > To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or > none, visit the groups’ homepage: > Chinese Medicine/ click > ‘edit my membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly. > > To send an email to > <Chinese Medicine- > from the > email account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but > will still recieve messages for a few days. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Can a healer who is irritable, given to ire, bordering on depression, bordering on anxiety, continue to heal, without personally addressing these factors, or even recognizing their presence? Healers are human, and as such flawed. But what if this is not recognized and one goes ahead to heal others, what kind of healing would result? What kind of a mindset does prevail with healers at large? Is it somewhat like what orthodox healers are caricatured to have, a sort of implied superior, I-know-more-than-you attitude? Here is a question of the horrible sort: In your opinion, what is the general percentage of healers out there, who are having significant problems of Anger, Depression Anxiety and Stress? [ ] less than 25 %? [ ] more than 25 %? Are we as healers, a subset of the population at large, in terms of how angry, irritated, enraged, depressed and anxiety-ridden we are? On the other hand, does the public, should the patient, expect more from us because we are Healers in the tradition of great healers of old, with a lineage going back, unbroken, over two millennia? Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 All, I read the thread about anger yesterday and wanted to offer a few comments and questions. I've also replied to a couple of Dr. K's remarks, below. The question was raised about the presumed equivalency of the meanings of Chinese words that describe emotions and English counterparts. Before getting to anger, I think it's worthwhile for anyone who wants to understand the comparison and contrast between Chinese and English descriptions of emotions to consider the two words that are equated in the general term that is used to summarize the various states of mind that we know as emotions in English and qing2 in Chinese. I'm one who believes that there is frequently something to be gained from understanding the origins of things, very much including words. And when we examine the origins of these two words we can gain, if not answers, at least some interesting questions. Emotion comes from e and motion. The e is likely the same component that we find in words like excise, eviscerate, educate, etc. It means " out " or " away " . Motion is motion. Movement. The roots of the word emotion contain some clues therefore as to what the idea behind naming certain mental affects as emotions is all about. It describes moving away or moving out. And among the array of mental artifacts that we create and deal with more or less without cease during our waking and much of our sleeping lives, emotions do have the curious capacity to motivate and lead us to move. When we feel fear, we are moved to flight. When we feel love we are moved to draw close. When we feel anger we often want to move something away from us. These are just off the cuff observations and certainly a great deal of attention could be paid to the subtleties of movement as motivated by emotion... and vice versa. Anyhow, if we have an emotional experience, we underscore the underlying verbal implications by saying that it was " moving. " We are " moved to tears " " moved to say " " moved to " a lot of things. And it's not altogether inaccurate to say that in English emotions are all about movement. They are, as such, critical components in the overall strategies that we have developed and deployed during the course of our evolution. Life depends for its survival upon movement. And the ways in which a species motivates itself tend to become encoded in its ongoing transmission of genetic instructions. We are what we eat...well, we are what we don't excrete...and we are also how we move. In Chinese the word qing2 is made up of two main parts, one on the left that means heart and one on the right that means, well, a lot of things. I'm not going to get into breaking down the meaning of this character, which forms the right hand part of qing2 and which is itself pronounced qing1 (at least in modern Mandarin). But it means green, blue, black, red, clear, and is used in so many different ways that it's dizzying to try and hold them all in the mind at once, let alone try and make one consistent meaning contain them all. For anyone familiar with Roger Ames' introduction to the book, Original Dao, the kind of treatment he gives the Chinese word " lun " might be very productively applied to this word " qing1 " . If anyone is interested in this detail of understanding, get in touch with me directly. I think it would over stress the list to try and follow up on this thread here. And there's a forum at the Paradigm site that is set up to handle Chinese characters relatively easily and is meant to discuss just these kinds of issues. In Chinese medicine, we read and talk about qi1 qing2 or seven emotions. I think one good thing for everyone to do is to have in mind the Chinese word that is translated as " anger " in this context. I'll leave that for someone else to fill in. But I just woke up this morning thinking about this thread and wondered if we're even dealing with equivalent phenomena when we talk about " emotions " in English and " qing2 " in Chinese. Maybe. And maybe not. At the very least, I think the question of their presumed equivalence is worth exploring. I found Dr. K's questions about the emotional state of those engaged in healing professions fascinating. My own experience is so limited that I hesitate to try to formulate a general impression of the general scene based on so few data. But my own experience with doctors and healers of all sorts is that they tend to behave more or less just like the general population. I once heard that doctors are the worst demographic when it comes to flying their private airplanes into the ground. No reason was given, but doctors are often forced into situations in which they must make life and death decisions. And this might tend to make them believe that they know what is the right thing to do, even when they do not. In an operating room, it's the patient's life that is at stake. But in the cockpit of an airplane, it's different. It's certainly an interesting question to consider, and I'm grateful to Dr. K for bringing it up. > On the other hand, does the public, should the patient, expect more from > us because we are Healers in the tradition of great healers of old, with > a lineage going back, unbroken, over two millennia? I'm curious to know more about what you mean, Dr. K by a lineage going back unbroken over two millennia. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 > Can a healer who is irritable, given to ire, bordering on > depression, bordering on anxiety, continue to heal, without > personally addressing these factors, or even recognizing > their presence? <big snip> > us because we are Healers in the tradition of great healers > of old, with > a lineage going back, unbroken, over two millennia? When I give a session, I do the same thing I do with my personal stuff as I do when I sit on cushion. I try to move towards being awake. I keep my receiving sessions down to a minium because I've found not everyone can do that and it very annoying. Yes, it is possible to experience a session from the inside out. There are some ABTs, acupuncturists and herbalists I will probably never consider for treatment or instruction again. They were way too self-absorbed to be anything but creepy! Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 Penel, > > When I give a session, I do the same thing I do with my personal stuff > as I do when I sit on cushion. > I try to move towards being awake. > > I keep my receiving sessions down to a minium because I've found not > everyone can do that and it very annoying. Is it possible for you to identify any particular experience or aspect of your education and training that allowed you to develop this approach/ability? Can you point out particular deficiencies in those who have them that make them so annoying? > > Yes, it is possible to experience a session from the inside out. > There are some ABTs, acupuncturists and herbalists I will probably > never consider for treatment or instruction again. If you were to design a curriculum or course of training that would have as one of its aims providing adequate instruction and guidance to students to help ensure that they don't end up on such a list, what would you make sure to include? Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 can you say more on that. I don't understand all of what you said. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals - " Penel Eynde LeGrand " <hyldemoer <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, December 21, 2003 9:17 AM Re: The Angry Healer > Can a healer who is irritable, given to ire, bordering on > depression, bordering on anxiety, continue to heal, without > personally addressing these factors, or even recognizing > their presence? <big snip> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 [On the other hand, does the public, should the patient, expect more from us because we are Healers in the tradition of great healers of old, with a lineage going back, unbroken, over two millennia?] I mean all the marvelous men from Emperor Huang Di who thought to ask about the 81 Difficult Issues, to Chi Po who chose to answer these in such marvelous parlance; to upwards of 200 profound healers whose commnetaries and annotated; to Dr. Hua To.u; to Yang Hsuan-ts'ao pf the 7th century; to Li Shih Zhen of 1518 or so; to Paul U Unschuld of our times; to Ted Kaputcheck who became the advertant Weaver of our times; and the many more who are brilliant healers, some known, many not so, quietly working out issues by candlelight even today, in far reaches of the Hinterland of Unknowing. Unbroken lineage, whatever system one follows. Wherever we diagnose and treat, Chi Po stands beside and either frowns. Or smiles. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Dr. K, Thanks for replying to my query. As I'm currently engaged in designing curriculum for a clinical training program, I'm curious to know what sources different people use to assemble their sense of Chinese medical history and traditions. Can you help me to understand where you get your images and ideas about the historical dimension of the subject? I'm looking for materials that can be referred to and used for teaching about these things. > I mean all the marvelous men from Emperor Huang Di who thought to > ask about the 81 Difficult Issues, to Chi Po who chose to answer these in > such > marvelous parlance; to upwards of 200 profound healers whose commnetaries > and annotated; I guess you're talking about the Su Wen here. What version of it do you find most useful? I g to Dr. Hua To.u; to Yang Hsuan-ts'ao pf the 7th century; to > Li > Shih Zhen of 1518 or so; to Paul U Unschuld of our times; to Ted Kaputcheck > who became the advertant Weaver of our times; and the many more who are > brilliant healers, some known, many not so, quietly working out issues by > candlelight > even today, in far reaches of the Hinterland of Unknowing. > > Unbroken lineage, whatever system one follows. I'm aware of a number of lineages, some broken some unbroken. Some seem to submerge themselves for centuries and then reemerge in different forms. Are you saying that there is a single, unbroken lineage that has transmitted Chinese medicine as an orthodox tradition, so to speak, for 2,000 years or more? Or are you referring more generally to the commonality or lineage of all who engage in healing arts? > > Wherever we diagnose and treat, Chi Po stands beside and either frowns. > > Or smiles. Speaking of Paul Unschuld, he has an interesting speculation about that name Chi Po (or Qi Bo in pinyin). As it is one of the relatively rare Chinese names that appears in Han era materials as a two character name, Paul speculates that it may well be a Chinese rendering of a foreign name. The character " qi " in Qi Bo is the name of what was then China's most western region. And Paul speculates further that one of the meanings of Qi Bo may well imply that the name was a Chinese-pronunciation of Hippocrates, and may testify to an inter-communication between the ancient Hellenistic world and pre-Han and Han era China. If Chinese medicine does indeed have roots that extend to the Mediterranean, Qi Bo may be having quite a laugh indeed. Thanks for the thought provoking thread. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Ken: Thanks for replying to my query. As I'm currently engaged in designing curriculum for a clinical training program, I'm curious to know what sources different people use to assemble their sense of Chinese medical history and traditions. > > Dr. K Can you gice some information on where will this curriculum you prepare will finction? That will permit a better esponse. Ken: Can you help me to understand where you get your images and ideas about the historical dimension of the subject? I'm looking for materials that can be referred to and used for teaching about these things. > > Dr. K I look to the simplest structure of as the foundation, on which I have developed an ever evolving structure, which permits growth, but stays away from diversions of this school of thought or that. I look to no school, and let no school look to me. To me the Essence is the Law, and what I make of it, the Way. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health professionals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.