Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

[Guest guest]

I hear things from them like, " Gee, Emmanuel was older than us in medical school

and now he looks so much younger. " Of course, Chinese medicine helps as does a

much less stressful life. (I refer you to my picture on my profile). The

fact is that we all went to Western medical school thinking that we would be set

free by our MDs.

>>>>Most MDs these days are miserable, they cant make a living, they are

overworked, they cant even make their own decisions. That is why so many are

trying things like acupuncture. They want to leave the system.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sammy, Lynn, and Esteemed Colleagues,

 

I on the other hand feel that Lynn Detamore's comments are inspired and

inspiring. Calling for ever more civilized behavior on a community chat seems a

worthy suggestion. Don't you operate a library, Ms. Detamore? Lynn Detamore's

civility might indeed be challenging for many of us to live up to, yet it's nice

to have ideals.

 

Most of my friends are MDs, and another significant batch of friends are LAcs.

I would agree with Ms. Detamore that most from both categories are quite caring

people. I would agree with Sammy that many of each are rather suspicious of

each other. However, MDs are not in any sort of envious position by my

observation. My MD friends are often envious that I had the foresight to leave

medical school in my 3rd year and move on to graduate school when I was 39 years

old. I hear things from them like, " Gee, Emmanuel was older than us in medical

school and now he looks so much younger. " Of course, Chinese medicine helps as

does a much less stressful life. (I refer you to my picture on my

profile). The fact is that we all went to Western medical school thinking that

we would be set free by our MDs. It turned out to be the opposite. I was old

enough and mature enough to actually respond to what we all could see. The

incredible indebtedness, the lack of sleep through 3rd & 4rth year medical

school and then through five years of residency. In those days, only 30% of

board certified residents turned themselves in as clinically depressed. My

sense is that the rest were mostly in denial. You don't see an income for nine

years of training, and then you only see your income lost by paying back

industrial strength loans and by paying vast malpractice premiums. I could go

on about the relationship with HMOs and other 3rd parties including lawyers, but

it's Friday and I'm in too good a mood.

 

Yes, I love Lynn Detamore's suggestion for engaging Sesame Street ethics (at the

minimum) and observing opportunities to cooperate. Not sell out, mind you.

Definitely stand your ground! But cooperation while being strong within the

paradigm of Chinese medicine will strengthen your position as a practitioner.

It will also strengthen Chinese medicine as an institution.

 

In Gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

Merritt College, Asia Natural

 

I am sorry but I have to disagree with the writer below for a couple of

reasons.

 

1st Reason: The " behaviour " on this list has not been " derisive,

condescending " as she claims. It has in fact been pretty civilised from what I

have read on some TCM lists. We need this kind of exchange.

 

2nd Reason: Western medicine and the institutions and infrastructure which

support it is HUGELY CORRUPT. There may be good docs out there as Marcos in

Guatemala reported, wish there were more, but there aren't. Just do a Google

search on > Lupron scandal < to see what I mean.

 

Sammy.

 

 

Lynn Detamore [healthworks]

22 August 2003 10:30

Pracitioners teaching western doctors...

 

i really do not understand the need for some of the derisive, condescending

behavior exhibited by some group members. come on, let's be decent to one

another. presumably, we are all adults here, eh? the days of 'medical deities'

are over, save those vestiges of ego that do exist in white coats. it certainly

is not fair to label the whole conventional medical establishment, nor any other

profession, on the backs of those few self-righteous. those folks exist in every

profession, including chinese medicine. we are all here to help patients. let's

review some sesame street ethics, and recall examples of cooperation.

 

if an md or do takes a short course in chinese medicine and learns enough to

make good referrals in our directions, we only lose out if they don't already

have our names and faces in their repetoire of connections!

 

i also don't understand the notion of doctors getting paid 'big money' for

medicare services. in real healthcare life no professional or patient can put

'big money' and 'medicare' in the same sentence, except to state that if

doctors bill medicare, they'll never see much money, let along big money!

 

it used to be that medical practices put caps on how many medicare patients

they could take, sometimes expressed as a percentage of their patient base. at

that point, they would not take more medicare patients. ah, but things are very

different now. the present trend is that medical practices stop billing medicare

altogether, meaning that their medicare patients have to go elsewhere.

 

doctors get screwed by medicare. those few exceptions, the more computerized

information is, sometimes end up in jail, or at least with no more medical

practice. anyone see the 60 minute episode about the cardiologist and thoracic

surgeon in redding, california? from someone who knew both of those doctors

professionally, i am told they they were really nice guys. but, they must have

been a little full of themselves, enough to think it was ethical to screw the

system by which they felt screwed. remember karma, and the

golden rule?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I hear things from them like, " Gee, Emmanuel was older than us in medical school

and now he looks so much younger. " Of course, Chinese medicine helps as does a

much less stressful life. (I refer you to my picture on my profile). The

fact is that we all went to Western medical school thinking that we would be set

free by our MDs.

>>>>Most MDs these days are miserable, they cant make a living, they are

overworked, they cant even make their own decisions. That is why so many are

trying things like acupuncture. They want to leave the system.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel wrote: I hear things from them like, " Gee, Emmanuel was older than us

in medical school and now he looks so much younger. " Of course, Chinese

medicine helps as does a much less stressful life. (I refer you to my picture

on my profile). The fact is that we all went to Western medical school

thinking that we would be set free by our MDs.

 

>>>>Most MDs these days are miserable, they cant make a living, they are

overworked, they cant even make their own decisions. That is why so many are

trying things like acupuncture. They want to leave the system.

Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

Yes. I was lucky to see this coming and be mature enough to take action to

reorient my life to a healthier direction. Nevertheless, I felt enormous anger

for about two years (both on my behalf and on behalf of my fellow students) that

the best and brightest minds were getting sucked into a system in which a

balanced life was not an option. Your marriage gives you some insight into both

the CM and WM side of the situation. I think most people on list do not realize

that you carry out a fairly rigorous life. Thus, your posts are quick and to

the point. These quick posts belie the fact that you are a good hearted and

well meaning individual. I've been wanting to say this on your behalf for awhile

now.

 

My own wife is moving along a path similar to Ta-Ya Lee, both an LAc and an MSN

nurse practitioner. It's our hope that she will have gained some of the

benefits of fitting into the current medical system and yet allowing some of her

own classical Chinese culture to shine through the CM side of her practice.

This is our current strategy. Ta-Ya Lee seems to have successfully pulled this

off. Bravo, Dr. Lee! It's interesting to me that both my wife and Ta-Ya Lee

come from the same part of southern Taiwan.

 

Another detail that you are probably aware of is the issue of numbers. There

are 125 accredited MD medical school in the U.S. graduating more than 16,000 MDs

per year. While I strongly support Maya's balanced views on the dangers of MDs

practicing acupuncture, how better can CM influence Western science and Western

medicine than if the practitioners of WM actually spend their time and their

money to study at least a little Chinese medicine? I realize there's some

paradoxical results, but there is also some long term benefit.

 

This kind of makes Sammy's point most relevant that CM can influence WM in

positive ways. This has my own position on many of my posts. Also you, Alon,

and I have agreed that some of the most interesting people are those whose minds

embody both WM and CM. I will again invoke the name of Ta-Ya Lee along with

people like Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs, Dr. Ping Qi Kang former faculty at

ACTCM, and Dr. John Chen at Lotus Herbs to name just a few. I still contend that

the influence of CM on WM will be greater than that of WM on CM, but that's

merely one side of a coin ... the side that I can see.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>Also you, Alon, and I have agreed that some of the most interesting people

are >those whose minds embody both WM and CM.

 

That is my perspective, from the outside - as both student and patient.

Neither alone will be sufficient in some cases, and those who understand and

embrace both paradigms are more valuable than the sum of their parts - it's

a case of 1+1=3.

 

From the perspective of student and patient, the least helpful practitioners

are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge contained in the other

paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in my view, their attitude

is not only detrimental to their cause, but their ability to fulfill their

role as 'healer'.

 

While there is sickness that cannot be successfully treated, there remains a

need for more understanding common to all.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel wrote: I hear things from them like, " Gee, Emmanuel was older than us

in medical school and now he looks so much younger. " Of course, Chinese

medicine helps as does a much less stressful life. (I refer you to my picture

on my profile). The fact is that we all went to Western medical school

thinking that we would be set free by our MDs.

 

>>>>Most MDs these days are miserable, they cant make a living, they are

overworked, they cant even make their own decisions. That is why so many are

trying things like acupuncture. They want to leave the system.

Alon

 

Hi Alon,

 

Yes. I was lucky to see this coming and be mature enough to take action to

reorient my life to a healthier direction. Nevertheless, I felt enormous anger

for about two years (both on my behalf and on behalf of my fellow students) that

the best and brightest minds were getting sucked into a system in which a

balanced life was not an option. Your marriage gives you some insight into both

the CM and WM side of the situation. I think most people on list do not realize

that you carry out a fairly rigorous life. Thus, your posts are quick and to

the point. These quick posts belie the fact that you are a good hearted and

well meaning individual. I've been wanting to say this on your behalf for awhile

now.

 

My own wife is moving along a path similar to Ta-Ya Lee, both an LAc and an MSN

nurse practitioner. It's our hope that she will have gained some of the

benefits of fitting into the current medical system and yet allowing some of her

own classical Chinese culture to shine through the CM side of her practice.

This is our current strategy. Ta-Ya Lee seems to have successfully pulled this

off. Bravo, Dr. Lee! It's interesting to me that both my wife and Ta-Ya Lee

come from the same part of southern Taiwan.

 

Another detail that you are probably aware of is the issue of numbers. There

are 125 accredited MD medical school in the U.S. graduating more than 16,000 MDs

per year. While I strongly support Maya's balanced views on the dangers of MDs

practicing acupuncture, how better can CM influence Western science and Western

medicine than if the practitioners of WM actually spend their time and their

money to study at least a little Chinese medicine? I realize there's some

paradoxical results, but there is also some long term benefit.

 

This kind of makes Sammy's point most relevant that CM can influence WM in

positive ways. This has my own position on many of my posts. Also you, Alon,

and I have agreed that some of the most interesting people are those whose minds

embody both WM and CM. I will again invoke the name of Ta-Ya Lee along with

people like Dr. Chiang of Min Tong Herbs, Dr. Ping Qi Kang former faculty at

ACTCM, and Dr. John Chen at Lotus Herbs to name just a few. I still contend that

the influence of CM on WM will be greater than that of WM on CM, but that's

merely one side of a coin ... the side that I can see.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>Also you, Alon, and I have agreed that some of the most interesting people

are >those whose minds embody both WM and CM.

 

That is my perspective, from the outside - as both student and patient.

Neither alone will be sufficient in some cases, and those who understand and

embrace both paradigms are more valuable than the sum of their parts - it's

a case of 1+1=3.

 

From the perspective of student and patient, the least helpful practitioners

are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge contained in the other

paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in my view, their attitude

is not only detrimental to their cause, but their ability to fulfill their

role as 'healer'.

 

While there is sickness that cannot be successfully treated, there remains a

need for more understanding common to all.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

i agree. but the correct way to go about it is to

refer pts to the different disciplines.

i do not agree that educated doctors need to know that

1. they are unable to help their pt anymore.

2. they need a course to know that cm can benefit.

all it requires is a quick phone call to ask what can

be done. then refer & see results & follow on from

there. what is the need for weekend courses.

if the courses are to be run-why not run them as

referrral courses where they will learn what is the

scope of cm & not prescription courses where they can

copy & do half baked cm/ap to short change pt.

this has never happened in a corse. its always give

them short cut treatments.

i have not said anything in the past few weeks of

discussion. but it has always been arequest from all

types of doctors whether they are ayurved,

allopath(WM), homeopaths- while i was in india. all

they wanted was a quick fix point selection for the

diagnosis of their knowledge.

I HAD TO WARD OFF SUCH PEOPLE AS I COULD SEE THE

DETRIMENTAL VALUE OF SUCH COURSES.

the simple answer i usedtto give wa a question.

for any of your 4 year degree courses can you teach me

in 1 weekend to practise. if you can deliver then i

can deliver too.

at that point everyone used to look around & start

wondering why i am saying that. when i said the course

is 4 yeasr then they started thinking.

so its ignorance that creates this problem. keeping

them in ignorance & teaching them in 2 days convinces

them that its all quacker, as we like to take 4 yeasr

but in reality smart people can learn in 2 days. so

please make up your mind what one wishes the ap/cm

profession to develop.

more of quacks in the eyes of wm.

then we are on right track in EDUCATING W/E COURSES TO

OUR DOWNFALL IN THE LONG TERM

 

I AM CONTINUING THIS DISCUSSION NOT BECAUSE I HAVE TOO

MUCH TIME TO SPEND ON SUCH MATTERS, BUT BECAUSE ITS

IMPORTANT FOR ACM TRAINED PERSON TO UNDERSTAND & NOT

GET CARRIED AWAY WITH THE FAME OF TEACHING WESTERN

MEDICOS ACUPUNCTURE.

anand

 

 

 

--- jackie <Jackie wrote: >

> >Also you, Alon, and I have agreed that some of the

> most interesting people

> are >those whose minds embody both WM and CM.

>

> That is my perspective, from the outside - as both

> student and patient.

> Neither alone will be sufficient in some cases, and

> those who understand and

> embrace both paradigms are more valuable than the

> sum of their parts - it's

> a case of 1+1=3.

>

> From the perspective of student and patient, the

> least helpful practitioners

> are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge

> contained in the other

> paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in

> my view, their attitude

> is not only detrimental to their cause, but their

> ability to fulfill their

> role as 'healer'.

>

> While there is sickness that cannot be successfully

> treated, there remains a

> need for more understanding common to all.

>

> Jackie

>

>

 

=====

Anand Bapat

Pain Management Specialist

Sports Injury Specialist

Blacktown, Parramatta, Punchbowl, & Hammondville

0402 472 897

 

 

 

 

______________________

Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

Messenger http://uk.messenger./

[Guest guest]

What Vanessa asks is very relevant and applicable.....and what Jackie states,

needs to be practiced by the allopaths in a much more encompassing way. Their

UNDERSTANDING needs to allow a full stand-alone collaboration with AP/OM

which CAN really CURE (a word they hate) especially those chronic sicknesses

they

can't do anything about. But what happens regardless of their endless

rationalizations for evidence based reseaerch (who care if it works and gets

results)........they for the most part won;t allow us to have that business

(money)

UNLESS of course they can somehow control it and themselves make money off it.

Richard

 

In a message dated 8/24/03 2:55:21 AM, vbirang writes:

 

<< Having said that: (the statement below).

 

Wouldn't that apply to the medical community that is

not reffering to the alternative medicine group ???

vanessa

 

>

>Jackie wrote it:

>

> From the perspective of student and patient, the

> least helpful practitioners

> are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge

> contained in the other

> paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in

> my view, their attitude

> is not only detrimental to their cause, but their

> ability to fulfill their

> role as 'healer'.

>

> While there is sickness that cannot be successfully

> treated, there remains a

> need for more understanding common to all. >>

[Guest guest]

Having said that: (the statement below).

 

Wouldn't that apply to the medical community that is

not reffering to the alternative medicine group ???

vanessa

 

>

>Jackie wrote it:

>

> From the perspective of student and patient, the

> least helpful practitioners

> are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge

> contained in the other

> paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in

> my view, their attitude

> is not only detrimental to their cause, but their

> ability to fulfill their

> role as 'healer'.

>

> While there is sickness that cannot be successfully

> treated, there remains a

> need for more understanding common to all.

>

> Jackie

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Having said that: (the statement below).

 

Wouldn't that apply to the medical community that is

not reffering to the alternative medicine group ???

vanessa

 

Undoubtedly - it's just I expected it of them, and I didn't of TCM

professionals! I thought at least I would find a patient-centred,

ego-in-control situation there.

 

Judging by my experience I can see why there is caution on both sides, for

instance on the subject of insulin resistance - or 'so-called insulin

resistance' as the leading Nanjing-trained medical herbalists in the UK

scoffed. I was astonished at the completeness of his diagnosis and

understanding in my own case, and the apparent instant success of his

treatment of many symptoms I had no idea could even be related. But the

factor he dismissed so arrogantly worsened until I ended up in hospital on

an ECG. Even a bona-fide Chinese TCM doctor could not understand why his

treatment made matters worse aswell, just insisted that a higher dose must

be required, his chosen paradigm could not be lacking.

 

We had exactly the same problem wih a TCM vet. He flatly denied the adverse

effects of his prescription, refused to accept the evidence we saw. My

western vet was fully supportive of the attempt even though he felt he could

not officially refer with something he had no solid information on, but was

greatly angered at this response, and rightly so IMO.

 

I see this condition as a huge opportunity for TCM being missed - there is a

'silent' epidemic going on with something like 25% of Americans thought to

be insulin resistant, and the percentage that will progress to Syndrome X

and diabetes set to explode, according to constitutional genetics I would

suspect, with the UK no doubt following in it's wake. WM has nothing to

offer, and, with one or two notable exceptions, it seems the English

speaking TCM community has no understanding of this modern epidemic, and

little interest in growing and developing it's paradigm to tackle it.

 

Why so, when the Chinese themselves are researching like mad it seems? How

could there me such an explosion of interest on list over something

transient like SARS, and no interest in something affecting millions at

home? After all, an estimated 25% of your patients are likely to be

affected. With such a vast materi medica at it's disposal I feel this is a

great shame.

 

And I don't understand the reluctance to seek or provide the kind of

evidence of efficacy WM seeks - truth is truth, it will always hold up to

scrutiny, the subjective should match the objective. If an improvement is

solely clinical, should it not be defined as such and allowed to stand on

it's own merit? I think that is where the WM community feels it cannot trust

alternatives, the lack of differentiation between the two.

 

As someone said, if you treat diabetes successfully serum glucose will come

down. If you treat insulin resistance successfully insulin will come down.

If there is one thing that will make WM sit up and take notice it is data -

so why not provide it where it is easy to do so? And why not use it where it

provides more information on the efficacy of your own treatment? Efficacy

has to be about more than just data for sure - just ask any hypothyroid

patient who has 'good numbers' yet still feels like hell. But don't we all

want both - both alone can deceive after all.

 

Both my western doctor and vet are feeling pretty helpless, though both

earnestly trying to find a reliable solution. One or two positive lab

reports is all it would take to reassure them, and a few such cases it is

often all that is required to peak the interest of the research

establishment. If I ever find a solution for the horse, you can be damn sure

I will get the data published!

 

There is interest within the establishment in Europe. The new EU legislation

that will register and licence all western herbs has a very broad remit for

collecting evidence on safety and efficacy for monographs, and is welcomed

by the herbalists who are actually involved (as opposed to commercial herbal

supplement manufacturers). TCM professionally prescribed will not be

affected, but it would be great if all the chinese data was translated and

available soon too IMO.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

WM has nothing to

offer, and, with one or two notable exceptions, it seems the English

speaking TCM community has no understanding of this modern epidemic, and

little interest in growing and developing it's paradigm to tackle it

>>>Not true. First diet can control syndrome X. Second drugs like glucophage can

increase insulin sensitivity. Third syndrome X is only known of because of WM.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

And I don't understand the reluctance to seek or provide the kind of

evidence of efficacy WM seeks - truth is truth, it will always hold up to

scrutiny, the subjective should match the objective. If an improvement is

solely clinical, should it not be defined as such and allowed to stand on

it's own merit? I think that is where the WM community feels it cannot trust

alternatives, the lack of differentiation between the two.

 

>>>There is a huge reluctance to use true audit of CM. The process is not even

part of the educational system. I believe it started in suwan and lingshu where

it basically states that everything is already known and it is only the

physician job to learn what is there. This than lead to this sense of

perfection, the Master really knows etc. There is no base questioning of the

system. Instead in all begins with faith not western style investigative mind

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

If there is one thing that will make WM sit up and take notice it is data -

so why not provide it where it is easy to do so? And why not use it where it

provides more information on the efficacy of your own treatment? Efficacy

has to be about more than just data for sure - just ask any hypothyroid

patient who has 'good numbers' yet still feels like hell. But don't we all

want both - both alone can deceive after all.

 

>>>WM will do so in a minute. A study of diabetes does not need a placebo arm

because the lab finding will be considered an objective findings. But do not

hold your breath waiting for such study in US. Unless the diet is changed (which

is sufficient by it self

for type II) herbs can not do it. As i said in the past, the hospital i worked

in in China studied the TCM treatment of diabetes, and had both their own Dr

treat patients, and had Dr from all over China that published that they can

treat it successfully studied in the hospital. They had what is called in China

a diabetes study institute (group). The result did not show TCM herbs being

capable of controlling diabetes except for very mild cases of Type II cases (as

i said this can be done with diet alone). TCM herbs can not control type 1

diabetes at all.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>Not true. First diet can control syndrome X.

 

Only to a limited extent - which eg in a horse means never being allowed to

go out in a field and eat grass again. Dietary control isn't enough - unless

the problem was solely caused by bad diet or excess weight in the first

place.

 

>>Second drugs like glucophage can increase insulin sensitivity.

 

Yes, but it is hypoglycemic - so no use until the subject has impaired

glucose tolerance, like many of the TCM herbs. Hyperinsulinemia can be

present 10 or 20 years before then, so there is a great need for a substance

that can address this at root - by increasing insulin sensitivity.

 

There are drugs like acarbose, or better yet green tea, that slow the

absorption of

carbohydrate, which are a useful control measure, but unfortunately little

use to

a horse as they cause microbial disruption of the hindgut as a consequence.

 

>>Third syndrome X is only known of because of WM.

 

Does that matter? If there are symptoms, surely the condition could be both

definable, and treatable in TCM?

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

>The result did not show TCM herbs being capable of controlling diabetes

except >for very mild cases of Type II cases (as i said this can be done

with diet alone).

 

As I say, maybe in terms of controlling blood glucose, but not

hyperinsulinemia, not sufficiently, and not in all cases. I am pretty sure

whatever is fundamentally changing the metabolism of horses must be

affecting humans as well. Though the equivalent can be acheived by 'poor

management' of either species for sure, and some are more at risk due to

their genetics, there are still cases of eg fit athletes who have never been

overweight, on a moderate diet, falling to this syndrome - horse and human.

WM researchers are coming to realise this at last as the more healthy

succumb.

 

So I guess you might say it is 'very mild type 2' that the answer is most

needed for, and where TCM has the most potential benefit - though it is far

from clear to me what TCM syndrome is primarily indicated at the level of

insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia without glucose intolerance. Most of

the work in China seems to be on the yin deficiency type, eg:

 

http://www.chinaphar.com/1671-4083/23/1181.pdf

 

....an excellent paper from the point of view of defining more precisely the

action of the formula.

 

But in a precis on Yang Yu-tian's article from the Shanghai Da Hua Hospital

" The Treatment of 52 Cases of Insulin Resistance Syndrome Based on Pattern

Discrimination, " in issue 1, 2002, of Shan Xi Zhong Yi (Shanxi Chinese

Medicine), Bob Flaws comments:

 

" My one criticism of this article is that it does not take into

consideration spleen qi vacuity, and, in my experience with Western patients

with this condition, spleen vacuity often plays a significant part. "

 

Which brings me back to the need to identify precisely which spleen qi tonic

formulas/herbs affect insulin, in what way. I wonder if you know if he has

investigated this and elaborates in the book?

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/24/03 1:09:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

alonmarcus writes:

Third syndrome X is only known of because of WM.

Hi,,

 

I have to say that my experience with this is that I was taught this syndrome

not by that name however by Jeffrey Yuen many years ago in the oriental

medical training I received from him. I found it interesting that it was finally

named by western medicine as syndrome X but for me CM found it first. By the way

I am not against WM, their doctors or their information. Most of the current

findings in WM for me point up the value of the training I received in OM. I

can often fill in the gaps in the studies where they say they don't know why

something works from my training and I can tell generally if a new drug will

work from that also although not so much with the new genome derived drugs.

 

I am not for pursuing a war between us/them but I would like to see credit

given correctly.

 

Thanks!!

 

Bobbi

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, but it is hypoglycemic - so no use until the subject has impaired

glucose tolerance, like many of the TCM herbs.

>>>no its not. Glucophage makes cells more sensitive to insulin and can not

cause hypoglasimia like other drugs. Also, it is now being recommended as like

extension drug in healthy people.It can be used before the onset of diabetes in

people at risk.

A diet such as Atkins has controlled every patient that I have put on it and

followed it. I have quite a few that were able to stop insulin

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Does that matter? If there are symptoms, surely the condition could be both

definable, and treatable in TCM?

>>>It is only definable by TCM late when definite symptoms arise. While you can

pick up early by various blood tests

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>It is only definable by TCM late when definite symptoms arise. While you

can pick up early by various blood tests

 

IME, in both horse and human, there is a clear pattern, though not one that

WM recognises it seems, especially since they stopped measuring insulin at

all in a human GTT.

 

Surely TCM would recognise sudden loss of energy and reduced capacity for

exercise for instance, muscle myopathies, or recurrent hypoglycemia and

carbohydrate craving? That would be a spleen syndrome would it not?

 

Is hyperpigmentation described under any syndrome in TCM out of interest?

 

These and many more symptoms can occur with what is described as 'a normal

GTT' in humans, though with horses any insulin raised outside of normal

range is considered abnormal and worthy of attention, though it is only just

now being recognised as such by the veterinary profession!

 

A tendancy to obesity or abnormal fat deposition (fat pads even with ribs

showing) is often the first symptom seen in them, though the ischemic

disaster of laminitis is usually when the bloods start to be drawn. The

microvascular consequences of hyperinsulinemia seem to be that much more

dire in horses, way before glucose intolerance develops, if it ever does.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Yes, but it is hypoglycemic - so no use until the subject has impaired

glucose tolerance, like many of the TCM herbs.

 

>>>no its not. Glucophage makes cells more sensitive to insulin and can not

cause hypoglasimia like other drugs.

 

I am sorry that is not correct, I have the safety data sheet right here, and

it gives warnings of hypoglycemia. It reduces hepatic glucose output as well

as

increasing insulin sensitivity and slowing carbohydrate absorption. The risk

of hypoglycemia is undoubtedly lower than with sulfonylureas, and may not be

possible alone with diabetics (who have raised glucose to start with) so

maybe I worded that too strongly.

 

But those with insulin resistance can be prone to hypoglycemia already. It

is not clear

if that is because of loss of first stage insulin release, or another reason

for the 'overshooting' of insulin.

 

The risk of hypoglycemia was the main reason my doctors were reluctant to

let me try it anyway, though I did eventually persuade them recently after

my TCM trials to date had failed (though inquiring minds still want to know

why!)

 

I refer you to the following review article for confirmation:

 

http://www.ecu.edu/intmedresidency/currentresidents/Review%20Articles/third%

20collection/Metformin.pdf

 

>>A diet such as Atkins has controlled every patient that I have put on it

and followed it. I have quite a few that were able to stop insulin.

 

Very impressive. It does seem to be remarkably successful, though of course

it is unfortunately of no use to a horse! Maybe it will be left to the vets

to find a solution to the whole deal for that reason. I hope not, I for one

have no desire to become an out and out carnivore either!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

The risk of hypoglycemia was the main reason my doctors were reluctant to

let me try it anyway, though I did eventually persuade them recently after

my TCM trials to date had failed (though inquiring minds still want to know

why!)

 

>>>>I spent a day with a internist that could not speak enough about the merits

of it

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Surely TCM would recognise sudden loss of energy and reduced capacity for

exercise for instance, muscle myopathies, or recurrent hypoglycemia and

carbohydrate craving? That would be a spleen syndrome would it not?

 

>>>>Are you saying most people with the potential to develop syndrome x have

these symptoms?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

My own wife is moving along a path similar to Ta-Ya Lee, both an LAc and an MSN

nurse practitioner. It's our hope that she will have gained some of the

benefits of fitting into the current medical system and yet allowing some of her

own classical Chinese culture to shine through the CM side of her practice.

This is our current strategy. Ta-Ya Lee seems to have successfully pulled this

off. Bravo, Dr. Lee! It's interesting to me that both my wife and Ta-Ya Lee

come from the same part of southern Taiwan.

 

>>>>Emmanuel thans for you kind words. i think it is very possible even these

days. She should do well and hopefully by example influence those around her

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

From the perspective of student and patient, the least helpful practitioners

are the ones who arrogantly dismiss the knowledge contained in the other

paradigm. They limit their potential unecessarily in my view, their attitude

is not only detrimental to their cause, but their ability to fulfill their

role as 'healer'.

>>>>Not only that, the problem is more that they cant see outside their own

narrow point of view. They are the same as MDs that choose to not study the

evidence for alternative med. They disease from ignorance and with their loud

barking they do not even realize how dumb they sound

Alon