Kidney yin and cortisol

[Guest guest]

Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I read

something early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to

suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and

my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient?

 

But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more

accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves

of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very

much a yang hormone?

 

This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is

a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only

cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome.

 

So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body

crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he

can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys

are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and

they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response.

Make sense??

 

Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me:

 

" Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and

the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although

some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and

the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the

Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as

constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a

Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to

retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations.

 

In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves

compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive

capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the

quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie

Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also

claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The

fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body

originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five

Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the

Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine.

 

A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some

stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who

has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we

suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are

exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the

fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even

though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this

" energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a

depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction

between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more

readily recognised in the West.

 

As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general

obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of

stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The

" energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is

claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends

to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in

Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance,

fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point

receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set

tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they

are taken.

 

Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is

also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine.

Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones

have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " ,

that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the

truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate

this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a

physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually

become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality

which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point

where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person

who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply

provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant

withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the

person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new

demands!!!

 

When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives

its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the

body. .......

 

The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening.

While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and

identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic

approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing

the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more

likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no

implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the

fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol

levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by

the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the

hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide

ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used

by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The

central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side

effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as

cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases

without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most

disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. "

 

Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which

did not support the kidneys?

 

The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue

too.

 

Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another

site:

 

" While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as

stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen,

along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of

internal secretions known as Essence (jing). .....

 

In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the

term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones]

stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and

replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the

genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same

functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow,

mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to

stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and

acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and

dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this

inland sea, dependent on its supply

 

Makes sense to me?

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

 

Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any

other reference to KY deficiency ?

 

Has the horse been castrated? I understand Don's geldings like to still

'make wood' but this seems unusual - maybe not ? Was castration done well

before puberty Don ? [ Don usually manages to come up with something that

completely throws me so wait for it .. ;-]

 

I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or

after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was

interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin

deficiency.

 

However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well - lack

of energy et .. - so I am probably on the wrong track with castration,

because you would have mentioned it surely. Just a thought I needed to put

words to.

 

Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient

too. Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be

evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a 'city

boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty

easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'. I have experience with

hamsters and they can tell you a lot about the way they feel - what they

like or dislike and what they expect from you - just by observing their

behaviour. Horses are social animals, does he get to see other horses ?

 

Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to try

?

 

Sammy.

 

 

-START-Original Message-18 November 2002 01:27---

 

jackie [jackie]

18 November 2002 01:27

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Kydney syndrome at root?

 

 

 

> 1. Kidney Yin deficiency can lead to hyperactive heart fire

> or `deficiency fire' as it is known. This is because the Kidney-

> Bladder system has a natural inhibitory link to the Heart-Small

> Intestine system but when Yin/Yang get separated in the Kidney, not

> enough Yin goes up to the Heart with the Yang so the inhibition is

> incomplete and dysfunctional. This manifests as irregular heart beat,

> palpitations and insomnia. The corresponding emotion is lack of

> happiness or despondency.

 

I have never seen tongue changes in a horse really - never looked for them

of course! No heartbeat irregularity ever noticed, horses don't sleep much

so that's no help.The mare was starting to look a bit despondant in the last

year or so of her life - the young horse generally gets angry rather than

sad, or is too wiped out to show any emotion in his very bad times. I can't

say I've ever seen him truly despondant, except maybe when his mum died.

Palpitations ar

 

-END-Original Message-18 November 2002 01:27---

 

 

jackie [jackie]

10 April 2003 21:18

Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Kidney yin and cortisol

 

 

Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I read

something early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to

suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and

my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient?

 

But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more

accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves

of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very

much a yang hormone?

 

This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is

a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only

cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome.

 

So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body

crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he

can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys

are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and

they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response.

Make sense??

 

Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me:

 

" Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and

the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although

some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and

the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the

Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as

constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a

Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to

retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations.

 

In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves

compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive

capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the

quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie

Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also

claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The

fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body

originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five

Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the

Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine.

 

A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some

stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who

has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we

suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are

exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the

fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even

though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this

" energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a

depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction

between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more

readily recognised in the West.

 

As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general

obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of

stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The

" energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is

claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends

to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in

Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance,

fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point

receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set

tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they

are taken.

 

Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is

also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine.

Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones

have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " ,

that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the

truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate

this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a

physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually

become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality

which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point

where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person

who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply

provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant

withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the

person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new

demands!!!

 

When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives

its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the

body. .......

 

The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening.

While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and

identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic

approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing

the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more

likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no

implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the

fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol

levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by

the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the

hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide

ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used

by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The

central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side

effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as

cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases

without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most

disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. "

 

Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which

did not support the kidneys?

 

The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue

too.

 

Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another

site:

 

" While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as

stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen,

along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of

internal secretions known as Essence (jing). .....

 

In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the

term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones]

stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and

replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the

genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same

functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow,

mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to

stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and

acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and

dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this

inland sea, dependent on its supply

 

 

Makes sense to me?

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any

> other reference to KY deficiency ?

 

Sorry, bad wording on my part - the liver discussion yesterday and today got

onto yin deficiency and possibly addressing it via the kidneys, and I began

thinking of the 'mother-son' principle mentioned recently, and went round

full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is deficient - is it

because the mother is actually a bit so?

 

> I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or

> after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was

> interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin

> deficiency.

 

Gosh it was you know. He was madly sexy as a weanling, started accosting

fillies aged nine months and then when separated from them (with other lads)

started to really fret over getting back to them. The stud where he lived

insisted he was gelded - at nine months. I never thought to mention it

anywhere!?

 

> However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well -

lack

> of energy et ..

 

Funny thing is there is something strange about him that way - he loves the

ladies, though he is pretty platonic with them having 'grown up with

mother'. but there is something about him that drives stallions wild - as

though they can sense an energy about him, something in his voice too. I

thought it might be just his hormonal imbalance, he looks a high androgen

guy - but now you come to mention it, I wonder if a yin deficient - yang

excess could amount to the same thing as far as other horses were concerned?

 

> Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient

> too.

 

Has definately been apparently so since the obvious 'heat' has been

allayed - big fat lethargic thing he looks - I think that's one reason why

people might have prescribed too yang herbs? I think it may have to be

addressed, but

maybe after I've got everything settled - with some nice cool Jiao Gu Lan?

 

Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be

> evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a

'city

> boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty

> easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'.

 

Difficult, he was such an irritable bully growing up he was banned to living

with mother alone from 2 yrs. So he loves female company, loves to 'posess

mares', but does not get sexy with them. I got a mare for his buddy a year

after Mom died - and he was SOOO happy to have his own special lady again,

boys were just not good enough. Horses do like a matriarch, though he is

very much the dominant, he is much calmer with her there, somehow only feels

complete with a mare about.

 

> Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to

try

 

No, I have really been relying on TCM professionals up until now. But I was

thinking this evening I might pick up some Han Lian Cao tommorrow to test

the yin theory. My MM says:

 

1) Tonifies Liver and Kidney Yin

2) Clears Deficiency Heat, Cools the Blood and Stops Bleeding

 

The Ayurvedic mix with that in seems to really suit him, so I know he won't

have a bad reaction to it, his cortisol after two months on it was lower,

and I could add a little more and see how he responds?

 

What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned be - cooling the spleen

down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have been aimed at warming

spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi and Shan Zha. But they

are too much - so it might balance perfectly?!

 

You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a couple

of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year. His skin looks a

touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent blood tests

is certainly normal.

 

He's also pretty warm all the time just now - not sweaty or hot, just always

very warm to the touch, surprisingly so for a horse with a depressed free

thyroid level

(nothing wrong with the thyroid gland - blood FT4 could be being depressed

by high cortisol).

 

He's been on a low level of thyroxine for that for a year, and he was

definately a bit cold before that, but I think he is warmer than normal this

spring, definately warmer than other horses.

 

I really feel I'm getting close to the right answers you know, I think it's

worth a try, he'll tell me if I'm right or wrong! When the horse herbalist

gets online I'd like to try building a formula around Jiao Gu Lan (because

of the specific nitric oxide benefit to foot circulation). Bai Shao seems

good for him just now, so perhaps Bai Zhu could balance that all out - it

is supposed to be good for insulin resistance too. Sigh - you could go mad

trying to work this out. Time for bed!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Hmm badly timed castration eh !

 

Not a bad guess for a 'city boy'. Because Jing has been 'cut off' literally,

you need to address balancing Yin and Yang with specific Jing tonifying

formulae. You need to point out this problem to a local TCM practitioner. I

don't think fooling around with herbs yourself / by amateurs to fix profound

systemic problems is a very clever thing to do.

 

Sometimes the obvious is so blinding that we miss it.

 

Sammy.

 

 

jackie [jackie]

11 April 2003 02:46

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Kidney yin and cortisol

 

 

 

> Are you picking up on this post below - it is months old - can't see any

> other reference to KY deficiency ?

 

Sorry, bad wording on my part - the liver discussion yesterday and today got

onto yin deficiency and possibly addressing it via the kidneys, and I began

thinking of the 'mother-son' principle mentioned recently, and went round

full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is deficient - is it

because the mother is actually a bit so?

 

> I wonder Jackie if your horse was castrated, did it take place during or

> after puberty ? If a transitional phase in growth or adult sex status was

> interrupted by castration the gelding might suffer more from Kidney Yin

> deficiency.

 

Gosh it was you know. He was madly sexy as a weanling, started accosting

fillies aged nine months and then when separated from them (with other lads)

started to really fret over getting back to them. The stud where he lived

insisted he was gelded - at nine months. I never thought to mention it

anywhere!?

 

> However, a castrated male will likely suffer Yang deficiency as well -

lack

> of energy et ..

 

Funny thing is there is something strange about him that way - he loves the

ladies, though he is pretty platonic with them having 'grown up with

mother'. but there is something about him that drives stallions wild - as

though they can sense an energy about him, something in his voice too. I

thought it might be just his hormonal imbalance, he looks a high androgen

guy - but now you come to mention it, I wonder if a yin deficient - yang

excess could amount to the same thing as far as other horses were concerned?

 

> Now, If Not castrated And K. Yin deficient Then probably K. Yang deficient

> too.

 

Has definately been apparently so since the obvious 'heat' has been

allayed - big fat lethargic thing he looks - I think that's one reason why

people might have prescribed too yang herbs? I think it may have to be

addressed, but

maybe after I've got everything settled - with some nice cool Jiao Gu Lan?

 

Although the K. Yang deficiency will not be so apparent it might be

> evident in a lowered sex drive or general 'lack of interest'. Being a

'city

> boy' I don't get to see horses a great deal but it would seem to me pretty

> easy to determine whether a horse was 'interested'.

 

Difficult, he was such an irritable bully growing up he was banned to living

with mother alone from 2 yrs. So he loves female company, loves to 'posess

mares', but does not get sexy with them. I got a mare for his buddy a year

after Mom died - and he was SOOO happy to have his own special lady again,

boys were just not good enough. Horses do like a matriarch, though he is

very much the dominant, he is much calmer with her there, somehow only feels

complete with a mare about.

 

> Finally, have you thought about specific Yin-Yang tonifying formulae to

try

 

No, I have really been relying on TCM professionals up until now. But I was

thinking this evening I might pick up some Han Lian Cao tommorrow to test

the yin theory. My MM says:

 

1) Tonifies Liver and Kidney Yin

2) Clears Deficiency Heat, Cools the Blood and Stops Bleeding

 

The Ayurvedic mix with that in seems to really suit him, so I know he won't

have a bad reaction to it, his cortisol after two months on it was lower,

and I could add a little more and see how he responds?

 

What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned be - cooling the spleen

down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have been aimed at warming

spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi and Shan Zha. But they

are too much - so it might balance perfectly?!

 

You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a couple

of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year. His skin looks a

touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent blood tests

is certainly normal.

 

He's also pretty warm all the time just now - not sweaty or hot, just always

very warm to the touch, surprisingly so for a horse with a depressed free

thyroid level

(nothing wrong with the thyroid gland - blood FT4 could be being depressed

by high cortisol).

 

He's been on a low level of thyroxine for that for a year, and he was

definately a bit cold before that, but I think he is warmer than normal this

spring, definately warmer than other horses.

 

I really feel I'm getting close to the right answers you know, I think it's

worth a try, he'll tell me if I'm right or wrong! When the horse herbalist

gets online I'd like to try building a formula around Jiao Gu Lan (because

of the specific nitric oxide benefit to foot circulation). Bai Shao seems

good for him just now, so perhaps Bai Zhu could balance that all out - it

is supposed to be good for insulin resistance too. Sigh - you could go mad

trying to work this out. Time for bed!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> Not a bad guess for a 'city boy'. Because Jing has been 'cut off'

literally,

> you need to address balancing Yin and Yang with specific Jing tonifying

> formulae. You need to point out this problem to a local TCM practitioner.

I

> don't think fooling around with herbs yourself / by amateurs to fix

profound

> systemic problems is a very clever thing to do.

 

Me neither, but it seems I'm between a rock and a hard place - when the best

herbalist I can find has given up on him, and the vets drug didn't fix the

ulcer!

 

But things are becoming clear really fast now I think:

 

By this morning I think he was becoming too yin/cool. The peony has settled

his feet and ulcer beautifully, but I immediately noticed he was too cool to

the touch.

 

I think that's why my ayurvedic combo worked well - I think the formula is

more or less 'cool and yin', and the ashwaganda 'warm and yang' - and

although I find it a difficult concept to grasp, he obviously needs both.

Having them separately meant I could balance them exactly, according to how

he was responding at any given time. He was also far less sensitive to their

effects - there were no dramatic overnight changes, just gradual ebbs and

flows. It is almost a shame I had managed a good balance when the herbalist

came to examine the horse - he felt he was pretty healthy.

 

But, it was not enough - his metabolism was still too low (spleen qi weak?)

and boosting that upset the liver, especially with the coming of spring. So

the liver itself may now be in excess/lacking in yin, or the kidneys are not

supplying them well enough because they are weak in yin, yang, and now it

seems possibly jing.

 

(I thought tonifying jing was thought to be impossible - I was told that is

why that claim, made for Jiao Gu Lan, is not believed by many?)

 

So the liver is still my sticking point (no pun intended!) - I left the Mei

Gui Hua in the second bag of herbs decocted, and the horse is fast becoming

irritable.

 

I have one more bag of this prescription left from the herbalist. I will

leave the Bai Zhu in at full dose to balance the coolness of the Bai Shao,

take out the Mai Gui Hua and try the Xiang Fu in at half dose. If he cannot

take that, then the only other thing (that I can see) is to address the

kidneys asap - which it seems needs doing anyway??

 

It's always felt like I've been 'managing symptoms' for years, but the root

problem has never been identified by anyone. Every year the root problem

gets a little worse, and so every year I have to find new better ways of

managing symptoms just to keep him on a level. You can imagine what trying

to do that for 17 years, with mother and then son, has done to my spleen!!

But I have never yet found a professional who will pick it up properly and

commit to seeing it through, finding an answer for him. They fail, their ego

gets dented, and they give up.

 

> Sometimes the obvious is so blinding that we miss it.

 

No one had ever thought to ask - and I'd certainly never have guessed! Looks

like a Jiao Gu Lan formula might be just the ticket?

 

I shall certainly be able to give the horse herbalist a LOT of new

information!

 

Thank you for your thoughts,

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

--- ga.bates wrote: >

> What would the risk to the digestion Hugo mentioned

> be - cooling the spleen

> down too much? I guess that's why all the herbs have

> been aimed at warming

> spleen and stomach, like Bai Zhu, Gan Cao, Chen Pi

> and Shan Zha. But they

> are too much - so it might balance perfectly?!

 

The risk is that yin tonics are greasy therefore

engendering dampness in the spleen. Huang Jing is a

good yin tonic which is not very greasy, shi hu is

pretty good too.

I really recommend looking into shan yao as a

digestive tonic.

 

See you,

Hugo

 

 

 

Plus

For a better Internet experience

http://www..co.uk/btoffer

[Guest guest]

> full circle back to where I was months ago. If the son is

deficient - is it

> because the mother is actually a bit so?

 

Not always.

 

If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5 Elements

is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls Water

(Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak.

 

> You know I just remembered he had a small nosebleed for no reason a

couple

> of weeks ago, and had one about the same time last year.

 

For those new to TCM, bleeding can be due to Spleen Not Controlling

Blood, or, it can be due to Heat in the Blood.

 

> His skin looks a

> touch dehydrated too - but that may be circulatory, his recent

blood tests

> is certainly normal.

 

Most TCM texts list " moistening and nurturing the tissues " and

providing residence for Shen as the functions of Blood. ( For

readers new to TCM: The B is capitalized here because the TCM

definition does not correspond exactly to what is meant by blood in

Western anatomy.) But another function of the Blood is to maintain

the balance of yin and yang. I've been looking for more information

on this and meaning to post about this on here for some time.

Perhaps some of the professionals on the list can go into more detail

on this. If there is Blood Deficiency - especially long-term - there

may be problems with Yin/ Yang balance.

 

Just because Western blood tests are normal, this does not mean that

the Blood is normal.

 

The Spleen is the number one Organ when it comes to Blood generation,

but, the Kidneys also play a role. This would be a snowballing

relationship. The Blood Deficiency further weakens the Kidneys, the

weakened Kidneys can't do what they do to help form Blood.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5 Elements

> is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls Water

> (Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak.

 

I think the Spleen is weak - Spleen qi deficiency seems to be considered the

most obvious problem he has.

 

> Just because Western blood tests are normal, this does not mean that

> the Blood is normal.

 

No I realise - but it does mean there is no dehydration in the western sense

of the word. I was beginning to wonder about Liver control of blood

circulation too. If PMS is caused by Liver qi stagnation, I beleive Liver

may include some of the central/systemic hormonal mediators of blood vessel

tone, hence the vascular and cerebral consequences of 'disturbing' the

liver. Can't remember if I've mentioned this here?

 

We were beginning to look at things like angiotensin, and believe that

dehydrated looking skin without evidence of true dehydration in blood tests

must be due to poor capillary fill or something. I certainly found it

impossible to get a spot of capillary blood for a glucometer when I tried

last year, had to go to a vein.

 

I believe Liver syndromes may be closely involved with the hoof ischemia

condition, laminitis.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> We were beginning to look at things like angiotensin, and believe

that

> dehydrated looking skin without evidence of true dehydration in

blood tests

> must be due to poor capillary fill or something. I certainly found

it

> impossible to get a spot of capillary blood for a glucometer when I

tried

> last year, had to go to a vein.

 

This is not TCM, but high percentages of nondiscocytes (misshapen,

inflexible red blood cells) can cause problems. Because they are not

shaped right and because they are inflexible, they have problems

making it through the smaller capillaries. This can lead to all

sorts of problems, including behavioral because the hypothalamus in

the brain is very rich in small capillaries.

 

The treatment for humans is vitamin B12 which promotes healthy red

blood cells. I don't know if this would be correct for a horse or

not. Or even if this is the problem.

 

High percentages of nondiscocytes appear in several illnesses,

including though not limited to diabetes.

 

For more information, do a Goggle for L.O. Simpson, nondiscocytes,

New Zealand. He's an expert on the problem.

 

Some substances encourage the formation of nondiscocytes (I believe

calcium is one). Others like B12 promote the formation of healthy

discocytes.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> > If the Mother is Deficient, something else to consider via 5

Elements

> > is the Victor-Vanquished relationship. Earth (Spleen) controls

Water

> > (Kidneys). If Earth is too powerful, Water will be too weak.

>

> I think the Spleen is weak - Spleen qi deficiency seems to be

considered the

> most obvious problem he has.

 

If both the Spleen and the Kidneys are weak, this can present

treatment problems sometimes. Especially if the problems have been

going on for some time. As the Spleen is tonified, this can suppress

the Kidneys. Even though the Spleen is still weak, the Kidneys may

be weakened if the Kidney problems have not also been addressed at

the same time.

 

It's like what happens when a person is Kidney Yang or Kidney Yin

Deficient. If one of these is present, the other is almost sure to

also be present though in lesser degree. Sometimes the discrepancy

is so great that the predominate Deficiency can mask the other.

Sometimes you'll see symptoms of both.

 

If one is treated without treating the other, the predominate

Deficiency can change. For example, give a person who is Kidney Yang

Deficient a formula without one or more Kidney Yin tonic herbs, and

the symptoms can change from predominate Yang Deficiency to

predominate Yin Deficiency. The thing is, the person probably is

still Kidney Yang Deficient, but because of the Yang tonic herbs is

now more Kidney Yin Deficient than Kidney Yang Deficient. (Kidney

Yang Deficiency can take a long time to treat.) They both have to be

treated at the same time in the correct ratios. Sometimes getting

the proper ratio for the individual is a matter of careful trial and

error.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> Some substances encourage the formation of nondiscocytes (I believe

> calcium is one). Others like B12 promote the formation of healthy

> discocytes.

 

That and omega 3's I see - my horse gets both, lots of soothing flaxseed

jelly mucilage! Interesting, thanks.

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> If one is treated without treating the other, the predominate

> Deficiency can change. For example, give a person who is Kidney Yang

> Deficient a formula without one or more Kidney Yin tonic herbs, and

> the symptoms can change from predominate Yang Deficiency to

> predominate Yin Deficiency. The thing is, the person probably is

> still Kidney Yang Deficient, but because of the Yang tonic herbs is

> now more Kidney Yin Deficient than Kidney Yang Deficient. (Kidney

> Yang Deficiency can take a long time to treat.) They both have to be

> treated at the same time in the correct ratios. Sometimes getting

> the proper ratio for the individual is a matter of careful trial and

> error.

 

Yes, I think that is what I have just seen, and the stage we seem to have

reached. My herb importer has found some Jiao Gu Lan in the UK, so I may

have it Monday, and the horse herbalist should be ready to comment by then

too. I will probably get some Hian Lian Cao to keep on hand too - my logic

being that if the liver keeps getting too hot/yang it may be draining yin

more than yang from the kidneys? If I tonify both with Jiao Gu Lan, I

wondered if he might still be out of balance?

 

I have been told Jiao Gu Lan is unusual in that it can 'tonify Kidney Yin

and Yang in balanced way' but am not sure what that means exactly, if it

means 'equally' or 'adapatably'. Does the concept of adaptogenic action

exist in TCM? There do seem to be some herbs who action, under western

scientific study, can go one way or another - for instance leading to less

or more adrenal hormones, according to need. I am not sure if that is a

specific property of the herbs, or if it is merely a western interpretation

of normal TCM

principles - I haven't tried to work it out yet?

 

Jackie

[starstern 0]

from reading about these terms ,it makes me think 'as they are both the same '?

its just which part you take a grab on ;and name it accordingly ;i.e.

when one is burned out ;then he is exhuested depleted of adrenal power began with stressed and high cortisol and end up with depletion of cortisol as well ;now to take the same thing from a another angles

burn out= dried up, overheated,until lost heat replenish power and became cold black out =dark =KIDNEY YIN difiency ;now take treatment ;licorice addresses it it feeds the yin kidney ;at the same time in western medicine licorice feeds your cortisol feeds your adrenal brings back the luster to life ///gives you warm soft oily wet young fresh qualification ; ??? just wonder how far im wrong ???

[starstern 0]

 

Whilst on the subject of identifying kidney yin deficiency, I believe I read

something early on which confused me. Michael Tierra's article appears to

suggest that kidney yin includes the glucocorticoid hormones cortisol - and

my horse has a raised cortisol, so how could he been yin deficient?

 

But, in reading the following article I later saw what I think is a more

accurate picture - cortisol is a hormone that *marshalls* the yin reserves

of the body, it facilitates the *using* of yin. Surely that makes it very

much a yang hormone?

 

This makes much more sense. Cushings (constant raised cortisol) I believe is

a condition which is described as yin deficient, and in horses the only

cause of rank diabetes, also a yin deficiency syndrome.

 

So my horses raised cortisol I believe is the Kidneys' response to the body

crying ' I need more yin - supply it to me!!!' . This would explains why he

can have a high serum cortisol and yet a low stress response - his Kidneys

are busy running overtime just to keep up the supply of yin to the body, and

they have no instant 'reserves' left to mount an adaptive stress response.

Make sense??

 

Here's some snips from the article which put this in perspective for me:

 

" Also of interest here is the importance of the Chinese concept of Yin and

the physiological explanation of this concept in Western terms. Although

some aspects of the body, such as the fluids, the substance of the body, and

the parasympathetic nervous system, all of which form separate parts of the

Yin, may be readily explainable in Western terms, consideration of Yin as

constituting the reserves of the body may not be so clear, especially in a

Western context. Yin reserves however, are of vital importance if we are to

retain our ability to fully adapt to stressful or emergency situations.

 

In Western terms, the concept of Yin as representing bodily reserves

compares with adrenal reserve capacity which seems to determine our adaptive

capacity or the amount of adaptive energy we each possess. While the

quantity of these adrenal reserves seems to depend upon adrenal size ( ie

Yin ), in traditional Chinese medicine, Kidney ( adrenal ) Essence is also

claimed to be the source of the Yin ( and Qi and Yang ) of the body. The

fact that traditional Chinese medicine claims that the Yang of the body

originates from the Kidney ( adrenal ) and also, according to the Five

Elements theory, from the Heart ( thyroid ) , is interesting in view of the

Yang nature of adrenalin and thyroxine.

 

A simple example of Yin deficiency which most of us have experienced at some

stage of our lives relates to the consequences of becoming over tired. Who

has not wondered why, when we become exhausted from lack of sleep, we

suddenly become more energetic. We get a " second wind " even though we are

exhausted. This is Yin deficiency due to lack of sleep, which is the

fundamental Yin tonic ( 9 ), just as exercise is a Yang tonic ( 9 ). Even

though we seem to have increased energy, it should be noted that this

" energy " is ultimately unsustainable due to the fact that it is based upon a

depletion of the Yin reserves of the body. It is vital that this distinction

between normal energy and the unfocused energy of Yin depletion becomes more

readily recognised in the West.

 

As is so aptly noted by Tierra ( 9 ), in the West where there is a general

obsession with everything Yang ( ie. energy, drive, aggression, use of

stimulants), the concept of Yin deficiency is little understood. The

" energy " or Yang which results from Yin deficiency, which incidentally is

claimed to be equivalent to excess Vata in the Ayurvedic system ( 9 ), tends

to be unfocused, scattered and unsustainable ( 9 ). Yang must be grounded in

Yin. Even though this is patently obvious, since without Yin (substance,

fluids, reserves, etc.) there can be no Yang, it is amazing that this point

receives little recognition in the West. The prevailing Western mind-set

tends to suggest that stimulants will do no harm, no matter how long they

are taken.

 

Stimulants of course, draw upon the reserves of the body ( Yin ). This is

also true of Yang hormones such as adrenalin, cortisol, and thyroxine.

Although there is a perception today that stimulants and adaptive hormones

have the ability to increase the stamina and energy of the body by " magic " ,

that is, without any physiological cost, nothing could be further from the

truth. Even though the healthy person is very adaptable and may tolerate

this stimulation or adaptation for considerable periods of time, there is a

physiological price to pay. The Yin reserves of the body will eventually

become depleted. There is clearly a point beyond optimum health and vitality

which involves utilisation of bodily reserves. In TCM this is the point

where Yang becomes excessive and damages the Yin. Unfortunately, the person

who requires stimulation and instant short term gratification is amply

provided for by modern society. As is the case with money however, constant

withdrawal of reserves may have very serious consequences!! After all, the

person with exhausted reserves will hardly be in a position to cope with new

demands!!!

When it comes to adaptive hormones such as cortisol we know that it derives

its adaptive stamina enhancing effects by mobilising reserves ( Yin ) in the

body. .......

The comparison here between modern science and TCM is indeed enlightening.

While science has approached this matter from a reductionist perspective and

identified the mechanisms behind these various effects, the holistic

approach of TCM on the other hand is much more wide ranging, encompassing

the effects upon the entire body. Medical science for instance, is much more

likely to see bone loss as an isolated symptom or side effect with no

implications for the metabolism of the body as a whole, even in spite of the

fact that osteoporosis has been linked to elevation of endogenous cortisol

levels ( 28, 29 ). Whereas elevated cortisol levels were once utilised by

the body to enable us to cope with emergency situations, to save us from the

hungry lion for instance, today, in contemptuous disregard of their wide

ranging adaptive and Yin mobilising effects, cortisone type drugs are used

by modern medicine to treat the symptoms of all manner of diseases. The

central adaptive effects of cortisone may even be described as " side

effects. " The expectation that adaptive reserve mobilising hormones such as

cortisol could be used indefinitely to suppress symptoms of chronic diseases

without addressing the underlying cause demonstrates a fundamental and most

disturbing misunderstanding of the body and its adaptive processes. "

 

Sounds like what my horse went through on a spleen/qi tonic formula which

did not support the kidneys?

 

The site this came from has a very interesting article on chronic fatigue

too.

 

Also on Jing or essence which is held by the kidneys from another

site:

 

" While Western doctors define the problems associated with menopause as

stemming solely from estrogen deficiency, in Chinese medicine estrogen,

along with other hormones, is subsumed within the larger category of

internal secretions known as Essence (jing). .....

 

In John Lee, M.D.'s descriptive definition, it is striking how easily the

term Essence (jing) can be substituted for steroid: " Steroid [hormones]

stabilize, energize, nurture our cells and tissues, ensure repair and

replication of vital tissue, protect us against damage, and foster the

genesis and development of a new life to carry on our species. " The same

functions performed by the hypothalamic-pituitary axis-the capacity to grow,

mature, reproduce, maintain stability, generate blood and marrow, adapt to

stress, repair body tissues-are governed by the Kidney. Inherited and

acquired Essence, pooled within the reservoir of the Kidney, are stored and

dispensed as needed. All other organ systems live downstream from this

inland sea, dependent on its supply

 

Makes sense to me?

 

Jackie

 

dont we got jing/yin/qi/???

jing is the most fundemental 'not yin 'as long we have enough jing ,do we have a concern for total yin depletion ??in order to avoid depletion we got make sure we have enough jing ;to little yin is just to much yang =a imbalaced qi ;???

[dcrghujuikhjd 0]

I think that is what I have just seen, and the stage we seem to have

reached. My herb importer has found some Jiao Gu Lan in the UK, so I may

have it Monday, and the horse herbalist should be ready to comment by then

too. I will probably get some Hian Lian Cao to keep on hand too - my logic

being that if the liver keeps getting too hot/yang it may be draining yin

more than yang from the kidneys? If I tonify both with Jiao Gu Lan, I

wondered if he might still be out of balance?