Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 What is interesting to me with the enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures, including the Chinese and Japanese. Whether many of the enzymes in raw food survive the heat of the gut is questionable. . . .I would like to hear some points of view on this. On Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 09:31 AM, <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net> wrote: > One of the key losses in heating food above about > 106 degrees F. is the destruction of the naturally > occuring enzymes in the food. I was struck a couple > years back when I read in a book about enzymes a > description of their role in metabolism and the > overall operation of the human body. > >>>The enzyme issue is very debatable > Alon > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > What is interesting to me with the enzyme issue is the use of fermented > foods in many cultures, including the Chinese and Japanese. Whether > many of the enzymes in raw food survive the heat of the gut is > questionable. . . .I would like to hear some points of view on this. > another reason to suspect that many enzymes do indeed survive the gut acids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 I agree. Even if the enzymes are intact in raw food, they may be denatured by stomach acid making them nonfunctional in vivo.>>Correct after all enzymes are proteins Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 Overeating wastes theqi4. >>The only dietary change that shows prolongation of life in animal studies is calorie restriction Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 The enzymes that digest starchesare produced in the mouth and mixed with the food as it is chewed.>>>Only some of the enzyme for starches are found in salvia Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures >>That is predigestion of these foods and not a sourse of enzymes for the most part. Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 No, but the salt-based fermentation produces lactobacilli and other cultures that benefit the intestines and aid digestion, allowing better assimilation of nutrients. Z'ev On Sunday, September 30, 2001, at 04:56 PM, <alonmarcus wrote: > enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures > >>That is predigestion of these foods and not a sourse of enzymes for > the most part. > Alon > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 Hi,Prof. You are welcome! I am in Taiwan now.I am college teacher.I teach Human Development and Ped.Nursing for more then 11 years.I am licensed Nurse and Midwife in Taiwan. I study TCM by myself more then 11 years,too.I am Nanjing TCM U.'s pre-Ph.D student now. After this semenster,I will on the way to do the real study of TCM,study TCM by formal education. I have to applogize for mis-spelling words because I don't have dictionary in my hand while I am doing the internet surf. TCM is Macro Medicine,Western Medicine is Micro Medicine.People who study TCM had better not use WM opinions to think TCM,otherwise,you will lose your directions.Try to use TCM to think WM maybe much proper.Enzame is a Micro-view,as well as becterias,they all got 1000 or 100-1000. of types. TCM never see becteria as a focus as well as enzame and virus.WE see Bec.and Vir. like some Army froce enter the body.So,while you use TCM herb,the TCM doctor is a general,useing the herbal formulars to distory the Enemy.The enzame is the back up of the body. TCM herb is the Air force ,Army,Nevy,ship,tanke,canon,gun. You can kill the enemy by confrant attack,as well , you can cut the supply of the enemy and many many methods to win the wars.So,in chinese old saying, a good TCM doctor can be a good prime-minister. Maybe enzames are oil or gas in the war,we may check the volume of them but never study the oil and gas type and how the oil and gas comes from.It's too micro. Thank you for pay attention to my opinions. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 salt-based fermentation >>>Even these are to some extent predigested Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Overeating wastes the > qi4. > >>The only dietary change that shows prolongation of life in animal studies is calorie restriction True, but other substances have been shown to promote lab animals to maximize lifespan and optimize health w/o increasing lifespan beyond know maximums. Most interesting is the amino acid carnosine which prevents glycation and irreversible crosslinking of proteins. In studies, about 90% of animals live to maximum lifespan with minimal morbidity. this is compared to test group of about 30% achieving this. BTW, calorie restriction may not work in humans and despite being longlived, such animals are skinny and anxious all the time. Is it worth it? Go to lef.org and search for calorie restriction and carnosine for more info. I wonder how these concepts and substances fit into TCM. Preventing glycation seems to be related to moving blood stasis or tonifying yin, as it has profound effects on skin and hair quality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures > >>That is predigestion of these foods and not a sourse of enzymes for the most part. > Alon that is speculation on your part. I don't think any studies have been done to see if the enzymes in these foods enter the blood like bromelain does. Fact is some enzymes are stable in low pH. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted September 30, 2001 > TCM is Macro Medicine,Western Medicine is Micro > Medicine.People who study TCM had better not use > WM opinions to think TCM,otherwise,you will lose > your directions.Try to use TCM to think WM maybe > much proper.Enzame is a Micro-view,as well as > becterias,they all got 1000 or 100-1000. of types. > Jean > -- You made a refreshing point Jeanu- thank you > > > -- > < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > > http://www.kimo.com.tw > Listen to your Mail messages from any phone. http://phone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Z'ev " What is interesting to me with the enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures, including the Chinese and Japanese. Whether many of the enzymes in raw food survive the heat of the gut is questionable. . . .I would like to hear some points of view on this. " I read somewhere that the biggest change in European lifespan occurred after they discovered how to make sour Kraut .......I wonder if not the fact that they had more food in Winter but becuase of some other health promoting factor in the fermented process. Heiko Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Jean, i have to tell you how much i appreciate your e-mails and contributions don't worry about the spelling the content of your thinking process is invaluable. susan schiff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Hi,Susan, Thank you for your encouragement. Thank you very much. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Most interesting is the amino acid carnosine which prevents glycation and irreversible crosslinking of proteins. >>>Be very careful with life extension info. I have been a member for over 10 years and they are masters of distorting and exaggerating information Alon - Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:04 PM Re: diet , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Overeating wastes the> qi4. > >>The only dietary change that shows prolongation of life in animal studies is calorie restrictionTrue, but other substances have been shown to promote lab animals to maximize lifespan and optimize health w/o increasing lifespan beyond know maximums. Most interesting is the amino acid carnosine which prevents glycation and irreversible crosslinking of proteins. In studies, about 90% of animals live to maximum lifespan with minimal morbidity. this is compared to test group of about 30% achieving this. BTW, calorie restriction may not work in humans and despite being longlived, such animals are skinny and anxious all the time. Is it worth it? Go to lef.org and search for calorie restriction and carnosine for more info. I wonder how these concepts and substances fit into TCM. Preventing glycation seems to be related to moving blood stasis or tonifying yin, as it has profound effects on skin and hair quality.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Fact is some enzymes are stable in low pH.>>>To some extent you are correct. However try to read the original studies and you will see how flowed many of them are and many of them fail on replication. Alon - Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:06 PM Re: diet , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> enzyme issue is the use of fermented foods in many cultures> >>That is predigestion of these foods and not a sourse of enzymes for the most part. > Alonthat is speculation on your part. I don't think any studies have been done to see if the enzymes in these foods enter the blood like bromelain does. Fact is some enzymes are stable in low pH.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 Hi,Teresa, Thank you,too. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 1, 2001 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Most interesting is the amino acid carnosine which > prevents glycation and irreversible crosslinking of proteins. > >>>Be very careful with life extension info. I have been a member for over 10 years and they are masters of distorting and exaggerating information > Alon Funny, I often find them to very conservative and dismissive of products pushed by health food stores. I like their forums more than their website, though. the moderator is a major skeptic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 Funny, I often find them to very conservative and dismissive of products pushed by health food stores. I like their forums more than their website, though. the moderator is a major skeptic.>>>>>I have not logged on to web stuff or discussion groups, but mostly read their journal which is a masterful misrepresentation of animal studies to promote their own products. The always push their own products which I have been using for many years, however there has been a few independent lab evaluation of several of their products lately, that show the labels to be incorrect, including a vit D toxicity in a patients do to between 200%-3000% more Vit D in the product then on label. They claim they no longer use prolongevety to produce their products except from what I understand they own prolongevety. They have several products which are very cheep (as a whole seller) and a few that I am having a hard time finding substitution, cognitex for example. Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 (If digestionwere 100%, plants that depend upon passing through the digestive systemfor seed dissemination would be in a bad way.)> >>>That depends very much on HCL production within stomach which is deficient in a large number of patients. A healthy stomach should denature proteins and there for most enzymes. As Todd noted there is some evidence, although mostly via very poor studies performed mostly by interested parties, that some enzymes taken by mouth make their way into the blood stream. Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 I think it is important to realize that digestion in the stomach is rarely a complete process. Things that might be denatured by themselves in a testube with the requisite gastric chemicals and heat may well survive in the bolus as it passes through the stomach. (If digestion were 100%, plants that depend upon passing through the digestive system for seed dissemination would be in a bad way.) Hence the ability of probiotic organisms and probably some enzymes to survive through the stomach and into the gut. I find that including fat helps get the organisms through to the gut for post-antibiotic use- blue cheese, full-fat yogurt, etc. Don't know about enzymes, but it is conceivable. <<I read somewhere that the biggest change in European lifespan occurred after they discovered how to make sour Kraut>> Sauerkraut may be important for several reasons. You have the lactobaccili, the enzymes and the strong properties of cabbage itself, which may be beneficially modified by the fermentation to promote assimilation. Having a vegetable source that would last through the winter was probably important too. And since it is often consumed with meat, the lactobacilli in sauerkraut may have enough fat protection to increase probiotic gut flora. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. All that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the indispensable, and bear the intolerable.-- Kathleen Norris ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 This issue has given me great thought.I think that different climates call for different diets.Further , different constitutional type people call for different diets. A few years ago a book was written on different diets for different blood types. I live in the middle east ( Israel ). Here , the traditional diet consists of alot(!) of fresh raw salads, olive oil ,wheat goat cheeses, and different spices( and ofcourse lamb). The question I always ask myself is wheather the diet tips in china (and for chinese ) are suitable for those in different parts of the world. When I was in china , the patterns I saw most often where of damp pathologies. As here, I incounter more liv-sp -lu disharmonies ( especially liver.......I wonder why.......). I once went to a very old arab healer, and he told me that the secret for long and healthy life is lots of salad and olive oil.This was while I was studing TCM, and my teachers where saying no no no to raw salads. It is a great quest to find the reasons for the many things that where taught from generation to generation. One thing that I don't understand is that in many very hot climates ( middle east, mexico africa) very very hot spices are a major part of the diets. any thoughts ? boaz >Todd > >cha > diet >Sat, 29 Sep 2001 16:08:47 -0700 > >I know I have long argued the case that cooked foods are more healthy >than raw foods. Just search our archives under diet, raw foods, etc. to >see past posts and debate on this subject. there is even modern >scientific data to support this position. However, after living in hot >san diego for a year after living in cooler climes all my life, I >wonder..... My students frequently take their patients to task for >eating salads, but I am beginning to wonder how bad this really is. >Obviously cold foods are hard on the GI tract, i.e. frozen or fresh out >of the fridge. But how about room temperature salads and fruit. In >Fundamentals of CM, it is noted that the term generally translated as >raw may actually refer to unclean foods. Since uncooked meat is clearly >dangerous, this is one obvious connection between raw and unclean. But >the Chinese still fertilize their fields even today with uncomposted >feces (night soil) in peasant areas. This means that freshly picked >veggies are also contaminated. Everyone knows one should not eat raw >veggies in many third world countries because they are contaminated, not >merely because they are raw. On the other hand, food borne infections >from salads are rare (but not unheard of) in the West. My Ayurveda >teacher, Robert Svoboda, suggests that raw foods are suitable for >certain types and in certain climates. So does macrobiotics. What >evidence is there that TCM actually prohibits uncooked food rather than >merely unclean food? > >The reason I bring this up is because I always tell my students that >disease is not caused by a deficiency of acupuncture and herbs, but by >the internal, external and miscellaneous causes of disease, amongst >which I consider diet to be a very prominent factor. So what we tell >our patients in this area of the utmost importance. My concern is >this. We all want our patients to eat an abundance of veggies. Yet the >truth of the matter is that most folks get a significant amount of their >meals outside the home. Thus they are at the mercy of what is available >in local eateries to satisfy this goal. So the question is whether it >is better to eat salads, which are widely available or the type of >cooked veggies one can get outside the home. Even if we can prove that >raw salads are inherently worse than steamed veggies, are they worse >than chinese, thai, and indian food that is commonly available. Studies >have shown these latter three to be very high in fat and the fat they >are prepared with is generally rancid polyunsaturated oils that been >subjected to heat and light and oxygen, making them massive free radical >producers, thus implicating them heavily in cancer and heart disease. >Such foods absolutely violate the TCM prohibition against overly greasy, >spicy foods. So are we doing our patients a disservice when we just >tell them to avoid salads if this results in them eating truly dangerous >foods or just avoiding veggies altogether. Be clear, this is not a call >for veganism. I consider animal protein to be a vital part of a healthy >diet. But is a salad with olive oil, lemon juice and mild aromatic >spices really a problem or is it even (dare I say it) good for you. As >a final thought, I would just point out that the japanese who exhibit >the best health in the world as a population eat both raw veggies >(albeit often marinated) and raw fish. Thoughts? Facts? > > >-- >Chinese Herbs > >VOICE: (858) 946-0070 >FAX: (858) 946-0067 Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 , " boaz colodner " <b_colodner@h...> One thing that I don't understand is that in many very hot climates ( middle east, mexico africa) very very hot spices are a major part of the diets. any thoughts ? To disperse the body heat through the skin by promoting sweating. Jim Ramholz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 2, 2001 , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > > >>>That depends very much on HCL production within stomach which is deficient in a large number of patients. A healthy stomach should denature proteins and there for most enzymes. As Todd noted there is some evidence, although mostly via very poor studies performed mostly by interested parties, that some enzymes taken by mouth make their way into the blood stream. > Alon You know, what occurs to me is that many folks with various chronic illnesses often test for low HCL. Could it be that if you are in poor health, then enzymes will pass intact into the bloodstream, where they may be of therapeutic benefit? And that those with healthy guts may not get any benefit from such substances. As to poor studies, I am not sure what Alon is referring to. As for plant based enzyme products like similase from Tyler, I think it is well documented that these enzymes are stable in stomach acid. Same for bromelain. As to whether enzymes in raw veggies survive the HCL, I am not so sure. But it remains a possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
