Diet

[Guest guest]

-

 

Tuesday, June 05, 2001 5:14 AM

diet

 

 

> However, perhaps a low calorie diet that

> ALSO maintains low insulin, low insulin resistance and thus promotes

> higher levels of growth hormone would be even better.

 

That is exactly what a CR diet does. Youthful GH levels are seen in advanced

age with low IGF-1 as low levels of

cellular replication are required due to low cell death from reduced food

generated free radical damage. 90 % of all

free radicals are generated by the digestion & use of food.

 

Here is a very good reference of medical abstracts and complete PDF papers

covering the various aspects of the life

extension effects of a CR diet,

 

http://o112.ryd.student.liu.se/doc/med/cr/

 

which is what I follow. I'm on less than 1,800 cal, 6'3 " , 185 lbs, 35 " waist

and very active. I never feel hungry as

most of my carbs are from veggies, which really fill you up.

 

The Cr Society is a Internet discussion group who has a very good in-depth

medical knowledge of the diet and it's

effects:

 

crsociety

 

> And this certainly calls into question the

> use of white rice, which has a very [high] glycemic index and is very hard on

> blood sugar mechanisms.

 

The long grain, brown variety has the lowest GI and is what I eat.

 

Had the ancient Chinese had available more nutritionally dense food sources,

they might have really lived to be 120

years old.

 

The latest data coming from primate studies is showing the exact same life

extending movement in various bio markers of

aging as the rodent data shows which seems to argue well for the diet working in

humans and providing life spans of over

120 years and like all the CR studies, very healthy, active, intelligent older

lives.

 

========================

Good Health & Long Life,

Greg Watson,

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson

gowatson

[Guest guest]

On Monday, June 4, 2001, at 12:44 PM,

 

> With our recent discussion of syndrome X, insulin resistance, growth

> hormone and longevity, the issue of diet is implicit.  Many in the

> western life extension movement have rallied around the idea of a low

> carbohydrate, moderate protein, low fat diet.  this ranges from the

> atkins diet to the so-called paleolithic prescription.  On the face of

> it, this would seem to fly in the face of high carb diets like

> macrobiotics and the prevailing interpretation of chinese dietetics,

> which seems to concur with the basic idea that diets should be high carb

> and low protein.  The questions that come to mind is whether TCM

> actually recommends such a diet and how we interpret the qualities of

> such diets in TCM terms.

 

I think that calling macrobiotics or Chinese dietary regimens 'high

carb' uses the same oversimplification of considering all carbohydrates

to be the same in quality. . . .as if angel food cake was the same

metabolically or qualitatively as brown rice. Grains and beans seem to

have been demonized by some of these diets, like the Atkins diet.

Remember, many grains have a fairly high protein percentage, as do many

beans and bean products.

 

Very little has been yet translated of value on Chinese nutritional

regimens, although we have a few good sources: the Zhu Dan-xi texts

from Blue Poppy, Li Dong-yuan's " Treatise on the Spleen and Stomach " ,

and the Mongol dynasty-era manual Yin-shan Cheng-yao (A Soup for the

Qan). This text is filled with interesting information on a variety of

grains, vegetables, fruits and animal products. A fairly reliable

translation of a dietary materia medica.

 

I don't think we have enough information to generalize about what

Chinese dietetics were definitively. There were many approaches

throughout Chinese history dictated by medical theories, geography,

culture and tradition. I'd be very cautious about speculating backwards

from concepts derived by modern nutritional regimens. While I myself

have practiced and taught a more macrobiotic or qing-dan (clear and

bland) approach to diet for over thirty years, I realize that not

everyone can thrive on this approach to diet for various reasons.

>

> The most common dietary recommendation in TCM is to avoid overly greasy,

> spicy and sweet foods.  For some reason, this is usually interpreted to

> mean a grain centered diet. 

 

There are many sources to indicate that this is true, back to the Nei

Jing and Ma Wang Dui manuscripts.

 

> Now it is true that chinese culture like

> most traditional cultures centered around grains rather than meats.  But

> was this a health choice or a matter of economic necessity?  grains are

> easier and cheaper to produce than meat and they store well.  So a grain

> centered diet prevents starvation in the population at large, but is it

> the most healthy? 

 

It is certainly the most ecological. . . .only nomadic cultures had

meat-centered diet. . . .and you needed lots of open space to have this

kind of a culture. And today. . . .a meat-centered diet is a luxury.

 

 

> Many of you may be familiar with studies of cultures

> such as the Hunza and Vilcabambans.  These supposedly very long lived

> peoples ate a grain centered, low protein diet.  Well, it turns out that

> the longevity of these peoples was somewhat a fraud perpetrated by the

> subjects themselves.  they were not living to be 120, but just into

> their 70's and 80's.  granted, they were in superb health even at this

> age, but another factor may be important here.  despite eating a grain

> centered diet, they were eating a very nutritious and very low calorie

> diet.  Low calorie diets, as long as they supply adequate nutrition,

> have been shown to dramatically reduce morbidity and increase lifespan

> in lab animals.  so it may be that ANY low calorie high nutrition diet

> would work in this regard.  However, perhaps a low calorie diet that

> ALSO maintains low insulin, low insulin resistance and thus promotes

> higher levels of growth hormone would be even better.

 

The Sherpas also seem to thrive on a low calorie diet.

>

> So when one considers the chinese diet prohibitions mentioned above, it

> seems that lean meats might just as easily fit the bill of food that is

> neither greasy, spicy nor overly sweet. 

 

I would think as a supplementary food, but not as the staple of the

diet. Also, such kinds of meats are hard to find these days.

 

> I also suggest that the fact

> that animal foods like pork and beef supplement the yin be considered

> here as well. 

 

Definitely documented in the Chinese literature.

 

>

> I read somewhere once that part of some taoist longevity techniques

> involved abstention from grains. 

 

This is recorded in the Ma Wang Dui manuscripts (translated as " Early

Chinese Medical Literature " , by Donald Harper) in the chapter " Quegu

Shiqi/Eliminating Grain and Eating Vapor " . The goal seemed to be to

refine the physical substance of the body, so that one was not bound by

the earthiness of grains. . . but the text says " those who eliminate

grain eat shi wei/pyrrosia " , which is an herbal medicinal.. . .no

mention of meats here, although the use of wild game cannot be

completely discounted. There was also a tradition in Japan that Michio

Kushi taught in his macrobiotic school about the Sennin, who lived on

wild plants,and extracting qi from the air.

 

> Since one could promote spleen

> function with herbs and spices, are grain centered diets desirable or

> necessary? 

 

It would be much more expensive, no? And difficult to balance compared

to grains. However, for some individuals, grain needs to be a smaller

proportion of the diet, so other strategies may be indicated.

>

 

In the various English translations of the Nei Jing I've seen, it says

that the ancients used to cure all diseases with grain-based gruels

eaten for ten days. And, one of the original characters for qi includes

the radical for jing/rice. There is no doubt that grains are of central

importance in Chinese medicine. We should let anti-carb fads dictate our

view of historical Chinese dietetics.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Greg- What was " CR Diet " again?

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

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[Guest guest]

-

" Karen S Vaughan " <creationsgarden

 

Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:02 PM

Re: diet

 

 

> Greg- What was " CR Diet " again?

 

Hi Karen,

 

Caloric Restriction with Optimal Nutrition (CRON) or as I like to refer to it:

 

Optimal Nutrition & Calories. (NOT starvation or even semi-starvation!)

 

The CRON diet has been show to extend max life span in every species tested to

date by 30 - 50 %.

 

For Men a CRON diet is around 1,700 - 1,800 cals and for Women around 1,200 -

1,300 cals while obtaining at least the

RDAs of ALL nutrients and in many case several times more.

 

Greg

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, June 17, 2001, at 04:49 PM,

 

>

>

> there is abundant evidence that the diet humans ate for most of our

> evolutionary history was veggies and proteins and that grains and beans

> have only become widespread in the past five thousand years for most

> people. 

>

 

 

 

Can you give some sources for this? Also, pre-recorded history (over 5000 years) must be based on carbon-based remains.. .and, yes, hunter-gatherer societies did precede agricultural societies, such as Han dynasty China.

 

 

 

> The chinese invented agriculture and have been eating grain

> centered diets longer than any other culture on the planet.  Many of our

> european ancestors were still gatherer hunters at the time of the roman

> empire.  The han chinese are pretty homogenous genetically and have a

> notoriously low incidence of adult onset diabetes the worst consequence

> of of high insulin resistance.  It is well documented the tendency to

> adult onset DM is genetic and brought on by diet.  Is it possible that

> it is a high carb diet that has led to this epidemic in those of

> european descent?  consider also the high incidence of adult onset DM in

> native americans, a group that split off from modern asians prior to the

> development of agriculture.  they also were very healthy living a

> gatherer hunter lifestyle up until very recently. 

>

 

The Hopi and Pueblo tribes were agricultural to a large extent. . . .corn based diets (see the great book Zuni Breadstuffs for a fascinating study of Pueblo Indian diet and agriculture). They revered grains and beans, they were the center of the diet. The native Americans you refer to, like the Papago, have a 35% diabetic rate. . .but they were not only eating meats, they ate wild foods, mesquite beans, cactus fruit and the like. Their 'high carb' diet is pork rinds, diet coke, white flour bread fried in lard. Hard to compare this to traditional eastern diets.

 

> Perhaps the han

> chinese and some other ancient peoples have evolved genetically to do OK

> on a high carb diet, but it might be incorrect to extrapolate their

> experience to those of euro descent.  and perhaps the chinese would also

> do better on high protein, low carb, given the choice.  As pointed out

> in an earlier post, the emphasis on grains in large ancient cultures was

> probably economic and political, not for health reasons, per se.  It is

> also interesting that far more patients have problems with low grade

> food allergies to proteins in common carbs (like wheat) than to meat

> based proteins like fish, pork and beef.  I have always found carbs to

> far more phlegm producing and stagnating than lean meats in myself and

> many patients.  Diet and genetics may be quite bound up.

>

 

Human beings are very adaptable, but dietary adjustmments take time. See the article Macronesians and Micronesia in the July "Atlantic Monthly", about the disastrous changes to health brought on by adaptation to American junk food diets in the island cultures of the South Pacific.

 

>   Since many

> protein foods also are understood in TCM to promote spleen function, it

> would seem that we could argue from a TCM perspective that such a diet

> promotes spleen and kidneys without producing phlegm and blood stasis

> when consumed with adequate veggies.

>

 

A problem here would be the lack of fiber in such a diet.

 

>

> I think to call this dietary faddism does ignore that most of humans

> throughout evolution ate like this.  Perhaps it is the agricultural

> revolution that is truly the aberration.

>

 

Quite a speculation, Todd. I'll have to think about this one.

 

One interesting observation. . . .our teeth. Unlike dogs and cats, who have mostly canine teeth, 20 of our 32 teeth are molars, designed to grind grain, eight are incisors, designed to tear fruits and vegetables, and four canine teeth, about 15%. This would indicate that we are designed to be ommnivorous, but with the emphasis on vegetable quality foods. I have no problem with diets with lots of vegies, some protein and moderate amounts of whole grains, but to eliminate them would seem to be unnecessary.

 

 

 

>

> --

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> VOICE:  (858) 946-0070

> FAX:  (858) 946  0067

>

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

*DITTO* what Susan said!

 

Teresa Hall, L.Ac.

Kwan Yin Holistic Center of San Diego

619-517-1188

-

<acuschiff

 

Monday, October 01, 2001 4:22 AM

Re: Re: diet

 

 

> Jean,

> i have to tell you how much i appreciate your e-mails and contributions

don't

> worry about the spelling the content of your thinking process is

invaluable.

> susan schiff

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We all want our patients to eat an abundance of veggies.

>>>There more data showing that vegetarians live longer than non-veggies. This is a fact I have always had to conceder when thinking about diet advise. I have always wandered if the advise about raw foods had to do with food poisoning. I defiantly think some so better with a so called cold diet than others. Some however defiantly do poorly with a cold veggie diet

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I looked in both CAM and the original Chinese version

of CAM (¤¤°ê°w¨b¾Ç Zhong1guo2 Zhen1jiu3 Xue2) and

compared the two. On p249 of the English, it talkes

about dietary factors. Item c. is Intake of unclean

food, meaning decayed or poisoned.

 

Intake of unclean foods = ¶¼­¹¤£¼ä yin3shi2 bu4jie2

literally 'food and drink not clean.'

 

Item b. is Overindulgence in particular foods and

discusses cold raw foods.

 

Cold or raw food = ­¹¥Í§N shi2 sheng1leng3, literally

'food fresh and cold.'

 

This is the same sheng1, meaning fresh, as in sheng

jiang (fresh ginger) versus gan jiang (dried ginger).

 

They are different concepts.

 

But of course, we must look at diet based on the

climate, season, and weather of an environment, as

well as the condition of the patient, and the strength

of the middle jiao.

 

People in Southern California in the summer can

certainly eat more cold raw foods than people in

Beijing in the winter, as long as their spleen is

robust. How much more? That is the question.

 

My opinion,

 

Lorraine

 

--- Todd < wrote:

> I know I have long argued the case that cooked foods

> are more healthy

> than raw foods.

 

 

=====

Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac.

 

 

 

Listen to your Mail messages from any phone.

http://phone.

[Guest guest]

Alon- You say that there is more evidence that

vegiterians live longer, but i think allot of that is

give or take. You get a px that is a vegitarian, most

of the time they are watching there weight,

exercising, taking herbs and/or having some form of

wholistic med/Yoga/Oriental body work/Meditation

ect... the truth of the matter is that this data is

not clinically sound You have a woman patient weak all

the time,thin scanty menses, pale face tongue body,

unable to conceive...

Are you going to tell me that it wouldn't benifit this

woman to eat meat?.. and if she is constitutionally

bound to blood def. how would you approach it?

 

 

 

 

 

Listen to your Mail messages from any phone.

http://phone.

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, September 29, 2001, at 04:08 PM,

 

 

> I know I have long argued the case that cooked foods are more healthy than raw foods.  Just search our archives under diet, raw foods, etc. to see past posts and debate on this subject.  there is even modern scientific data to support this position.  However, after living in hot san diego for a year after living in cooler climes all my life, I wonder.....  My students frequently take their patients to task for eating salads, but I am beginning to wonder how bad this really is.  Obviously cold foods are hard on the GI tract, i.e. frozen or fresh out of the fridge.  But how about room temperature salads and fruit.  InFundamentals of CM, it is noted that the term generally translated as raw may actually refer to unclean foods.  Since uncooked meat is clearly dangerous, this is one obvious connection between raw and unclean.  But the Chinese still fertilize their fields even today with uncomposted feces (night soil) in peasant areas.  This means that freshly picked veggies are also contaminated.  Everyone knows one should not eat raw veggies in many third world countries because they are contaminated, not merely because they are raw.  On the other hand, food borne infections from salads are rare (but not unheard of) in the West.  My Ayurveda teacher, Robert Svoboda, suggests that raw foods are suitable for certain types and in certain climates.  So does macrobiotics.  What evidence is there that TCM actually prohibits uncooked food rather than merely unclean food?

>

 

I agree with you that in a climate like Southern California, some seasonal raw food is fine. I have never prohibited raw vegies or fruits, I tell patients to watch for quantity. I am much more concerned with iced drinks/sodas, ice cream and yogurts for cold/damp issues.

 

We must also remember that Ayurveda teaches that there are many ways of 'cooking' food other than with fire. . .adding oil to salad tames vatu (wind), shredding carrots, marinating vegetables, serving with ginger or cayenne, for example. Also, some Chinese cuisine includes a bit of salad as garnish or side dish.

 

I think Svoboda's book "Prakruti" is an excellent guide to nutrition.

 

>

> The reason I bring this up is because I always tell my students that disease is not caused by a deficiency of acupuncture and herbs, but by the internal, external and miscellaneous causes of disease, amongst which I consider diet to be a very prominent factor.  So what we tell our patients in this area of the utmost importance. 

>

 

I agree 100%. I am even more concerned about the diet of our students who are studying to be healers, a large majority pay little or no concern to their diets.

 

 

 

> My concern is this.  We all want our patients to eat an abundance of veggies.  Yet the truth of the matter is that most folks get a significant amount of their meals outside the home.  Thus they are at the mercy of what is available in local eateries to satisfy this goal.  So the question is whether it is better to eat salads, which are widely available or the type of cooked veggies one can get outside the home.  Even if we can prove that raw salads are inherently worse than steamed veggies, are they worse than chinese, thai, and indian food that is commonly available.  Studies have shown these latter three to be very high in fat and the fat they are prepared with is generally rancid polyunsaturated oils that been subjected to heat and light and oxygen, making them massive free radical producers, thus implicating them heavily in cancer and heart disease.  Such foods absolutely violate the TCM prohibition against overly greasy, spicy foods.  So are we doing our patients a disservice when we just tell them to avoid salads if this results in them eating truly dangerous foods or just avoiding veggies altogether.  Be clear, this is not a call for veganism.  I consider animal protein to be a vital part of a healthy diet.  But is a salad with olive oil, lemon juice and mild aromatic spices really a problem or is it even (dare I say it) good for you.  As a final thought, I would just point out that the japanese who exhibit the best health in the world as a population eat both raw veggies (albeit often marinated) and raw fish.  Thoughts?  Facts?

>

 

I think a well-prepared salad is much better than greasy, overcooked vegies. That's just common sense. Rules of diet need to be flexible and applied to the particular situation

 

 

 

>  

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

[Todd]

> Studies have shown these latter three to be very high in fat and

the fat they

> are prepared with is generally rancid polyunsaturated oils that been

> subjected to heat and light and oxygen, making them massive free

radical

> producers, thus implicating them heavily in cancer and heart

disease.

> Such foods absolutely violate the TCM prohibition against overly

greasy,

> spicy foods. So are we doing our patients a disservice when we just

> tell them to avoid salads if this results in them eating truly

dangerous

> foods or just avoiding veggies altogether.

 

[Jim] Diet should be considered not as a general zang-fu edict but

according to the 5-Phases of the individual's constitution, their

particular environment, and lifestyle. And then considered according

to the quality of the fats, proteins, carbohydrates, etc. Lately,

there have been scientific articles that track metabolic types to

genetics and blood type. For example, if your family lineage comes

from northern latitudes, your ability to digest fats statistically

increases in order to help you produce more metabolic heat to protect

you against the environment---consider the Eskimo. While the diets

from tropical latitudes require lighter meals and spices to disperse

the environmental heat. This genetic adaptation also helps shape the

constitutional type.

 

If you change your environment, even for a short period, you should

change your diet accordingly. Eating raw salads at the Artic Circle

would likely create a problem, but in hot regions probably not---

following Guest/Host rules. Coffee is beneficial in the NW because

its bitter and stimulating qualities help balance the cold and damp

of the locale.

 

While the general rules are the product of a specific population and

time, TCM is too important to be left to the Chinese.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

James Ramholz

Silk Road Acupuncture Center

112 E. Laurel

Fort Collins, CO 80524-3029

(970) 482-5900 Voice

(970) 482-4681 Fax

(303) 522-3348 Cell

[Guest guest]

, " Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. " <xuankong>

wrote:

> Hi

>

> I looked in both CAM and the original Chinese version

> of CAM (€€°ê°w¨b*Ç Zhong1guo2 Zhen1jiu3 Xue2) and

> compared the two. On p249 of the English, it talkes

> about dietary factors. Item c. is Intake of unclean

> food, meaning decayed or poisoned.

>

> Intake of unclean foods = ¶*–1€£*ä yin3shi2 bu4jie2

> literally 'food and drink not clean.'

>

> Item b. is Overindulgence in particular foods and

> discusses cold raw foods.

>

> Cold or raw food = –1¥Í§N shi2 sheng1leng3, literally

> 'food fresh and cold.'

>

> This is the same sheng1, meaning fresh, as in sheng

> jiang (fresh ginger) versus gan jiang (dried ginger).

 

 

thanks, that was very helpful

 

[Guest guest]

Professor

 

Thank you for the information.Also,I agree most of

your diet opinions.

 

Since You guys talk about raw food and cooked food of

TCM.I think I would like to provide some opnions how

chinese people think about raw and cooked food.

 

We chinese see every thing on the earth is according

Yin and Yong.Food and TCM herb are in the same

thinking process,too.

 

No matter food or TCM herb,even water and animals,we

all depend on Yin and yong,not raw or cooked.

 

For example,We see vegetables and meats not depend on

the raw or cooked,depend on which can

increse/decrease Yin energy or increse/decrease yong

energy after we ate it.Such as,Ship(goat) meat or dog

meat(I am soory that I have to use this to be an

example) is hot,can increase yong E.Pig is cool,can

not increase Yong E.

 

Vegetables,some might be cool while they are raw,after

cooked,it become warm or hot or " even " .Almost every

green vegetables or some wild herbs are cool or cold

before they are cooked.So,If you eat salad,it migt be

a little be cool and reduce some heat or hot of your

bady,after we cooked it with some ginger or seeds

oil,it might changed to warm or hot.or get

" even " " belence " .

 

The salad dressing might be belence the cool of

vegetables.and the nature of salad vegetables are not

very cool,some are middium(Qi).

 

We chinese TCM doctor does not courage people eat Ice

bar or ice cream,ice water in the summer time because

it is too cold for your body,these will reduce your

body circulation ,especially the ill one or woman who

got " period " problem.

 

People always choose the food they need for keep

belence of their own body automaticly,if he/her is

healthy.

 

Thank you all .

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

=====

 

 

--

< ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw

[Guest guest]

 

 

I've thought about this subject for a long time

and whereas " facts " are elusive, opinions are

plentiful. Here are a few of mine.

 

The Chinese proscription against raw food predates

the modern era. Thus it related to a food supply

that was substantially different in character and

content from the modern one. Any adaptation of

the principle, therefore, that doesn't take into

account this environmental factor is likely to

fail. It violates the fundamental notion that

time, place, and person be the principal determining

factors when assessing and deciding on courses

of action.

 

Much of the food that the industrialized

food supply chain delivers to Americans, for example,

has lost much of its value before it ever reaches

American kitchens. There its degradation continues

until it becomes not the substantial basis of

life but one of the principal factors involved

in the high rates of obesity and cardiac disease

among the population that consumes this " food. "

 

One of the key losses in heating food above about

106 degrees F. is the destruction of the naturally

occuring enzymes in the food. I was struck a couple

years back when I read in a book about enzymes a

description of their role in metabolism and the

overall operation of the human body. It was the

closest approximation of what I understand to be

certain aspects of qi4 that I'd ever read in

English. I am not saying that qi4 is equal to

enzyme action. I am commenting on how

closely language used to describe enzyme action

parallels ancient Chinese expressions about qi4.

 

One thing is for sure: humans need to eat to

replenish their qi4. And if there is no qi4

in the food you eat...well, where's it going

to come from?

 

As to the Chinese proscription against raw food,

commonly, i.e. among common Chinese people, it

tends to be just that. Salad is rabbit food in

China. My inlaws think I'm crazy for eating

salad, which I understand to be purely an

expression of this long standing folk belief

that it is not good to eat raw food. In

the summer time in Chengdu folks eat raw

cucumbers, because they help to cool down

the body. So the general prohibition is not

even an iron clad rule, but it does prevail

among the Chinese to the present day.

 

Another factor, which Jean pointed out, is

that food and herbs are definitely understood

to be in the same category. Food is the

superior form of medicine, of course,

because its proper use regulates the

body and prevents illness. Herbs are

what we resort to when our diet has

failed us.

 

Of course, the phrase " when our diet

has failed us " misses the point, as it

is we who fail to understand and carry

out our nutrition adequately. In an

environment where the food supply is

so highly compromised, the challenges

are tougher still.

 

I experimented with a raw food diet

a while back and found that by merely

becoming more attentive to my food intake

that I ate more appropriately and felt

much better. I think of commonly available

food, especially restaurant food (in general)

and fast food, as environmental hazards.

 

I'd say that the differences in circumstance

between our modern environment and the

ancient Chinese environment dictate that

we adapt this proscription to our individual

lives. The Chinese way is to assess food

in terms of its qi4, again as Jean pointed

out.

 

So folks who want to successfully apply

the Chinese theory concerning raw foods

can start with that. I find when I simply

stop before eating something and ask

myself what its effect is likely to be

on my qi4 that I eat much better.

 

The French also have a relatively healthy

profile, which has been linked to their

diet as well. And in France people do not

tend to equate food and medicine or engage

in eating in order to be or become more

healthy. In France they eat for the enjoyment

of food.

 

The scientific research on the whole area is

far from complete. And from the traditional

Chinese perspective I think we're best

served by the qi4 tool.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

thanks for your input, Jean. Where are you living right now? In the

US or China?

 

 

, Jeansu <jeansu009> wrote:

 

 

> Vegetables,some might be cool while they are raw,after

> cooked,it become warm or hot or " even " .Almost every

> green vegetables or some wild herbs are cool or cold

> before they are cooked.So,If you eat salad,it migt be

> a little be cool and reduce some heat or hot of your

> bady,after we cooked it with some ginger or seeds

> oil,it might changed to warm or hot.or get

> " even " " belence " .

>

> The salad dressing might be belence the cool of

> vegetables.and the nature of salad vegetables are not

> very cool,some are middium(Qi).

>

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, yulong@m... wrote:

I am not saying that qi4 is equal to

> enzyme action. I am commenting on how

> closely language used to describe enzyme action

> parallels ancient Chinese expressions about qi4.

 

I have also been struck by this similarity for years. I have also

noticed clinically that the use of enzymes improves the spleen function

and thus the production of postnatal qi in my patients. The ease of

taking these substances compared to raw herbs makes them quite useful

in practice. In California, prescription of these items is part of our

scope of praxtice as is lab testing, both of which I utilize. In fact,

I am designing an elective for PCOM that focuses on the use of

supplments and lab testing to complement TCM methodology.

 

 

> As to the Chinese proscription against raw food,

> commonly, i.e. among common Chinese people, it

> tends to be just that. Salad is rabbit food in

> China. My inlaws think I'm crazy for eating

> salad, which I understand to be purely an

> expression of this long standing folk belief

> that it is not good to eat raw food.

 

 

And I wonder how much this folk belief is connected to the

contamination of raw food versus its inherent ill effects if it is

" clean " . I think the proper use of dressings on clean raw veggies

essentially transforms the salads into balanced foods. We can think of

this as a form of pao zhi. So italian dressing with damp transfroming

herbs like oregano (which is use as substitute for huo xiang in western

china) and red wine vinegar makes the salads more digestible while

ranch dressing (the american favorite) just makes them damper and

colder.

 

 

>

>

in France people do not

> tend to equate food and medicine or engage

> in eating in order to be or become more

> healthy. In France they eat for the enjoyment

> of food.

>

 

I heard recently that the french think our association of food as

medicine to be bordering on insane. It is not just in china, but even

here in the US where many folks think constantly in these terms. I

wonder what's healthier, the french or chinese attitude.

 

[Guest guest]

You say that there is more evidence thatvegetarians live longer, but I think allot of that isgive or take. You get a px that is a vegitarian, mostof the time they are watching there weight,exercising, taking herbs and/or having some form ofwholistic med/Yoga/Oriental body work/Meditationect... the truth of the matter is that this data isnot clinically sound You have a woman patient weak allthe time,thin scanty menses, pale face tongue body,unable to conceive...Are you going to tell me that it wouldn't benifit thiswoman to eat meat?.. and if she is constitutionallybound to blood def. how would you approach it?>>>>Like I said I think some do better eating meat. Some of data I have seen has attempted to control all the other factors you are quoting. I do not think we know enough as of yet. For example by blood work many people are better of with a 30, 30, 40 diet, however we have no idea how they will do in real life. It is clear for example the meat eater have higher rates of some cancers. I think we are going by belief system and do not really have enough information to justify one view or the other

Alon

[Guest guest]

One of the key losses in heating food above about106 degrees F. is the destruction of the naturallyoccuring enzymes in the food. I was struck a coupleyears back when I read in a book about enzymes adescription of their role in metabolism and theoverall operation of the human body.

>>>The enzyme issue is very debatable

Alon

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

 

> As

> a final thought, I would just point out that the japanese who

exhibit

> the best health in the world as a population eat both raw veggies

> (albeit often marinated) and raw fish. Thoughts?

 

 

 

the Japanese also provide, in my opinion, the best example of balance

in their cuisine of any culture in the world. Each meal is perfectly

harmonious, with all of the flavors represented. As for sushi or

sashimi, don't forget that raw fish is typically eaten with a spicy,

warm mixture of wasabi and soy sauce and served alongside copious

amounts of fresh pickled ginger - which they consume with a little

more gusto than we might over here. A sushi meal also begins with a

steamy bowl of miso soup - something warm to start with.

 

I agree with Z'ev:

 

>We must also remember that Ayurveda teaches that there are many

>ways of 'cooking' food other than with fire. . .adding oil to

>salad tames vatu (wind), shredding carrots, marinating vegetables,

>serving with ginger or cayenne, for example.

 

In TCM, isn't the key word " over-indulgence " ? Pathology comes not

from eating a raw carrot with your meal, but from eating excessive

amounts of uncooked, difficult to digest foods when the body is not

capable of dealing with the work-order they present. Eating a salad

for lunch on a warm, dry afternoon, may benefit the middle jiao simply

because it's a lighter meal with fewer calories. (Slopping on lots of

blue cheese or ranch dressing may undo that benefit, though.)

 

Eating cold cereal for breakfast followed by salads for lunch and

dinner, punctuated by snacks of celery sticks in between, may engender

pathology because the diet lacks balance. The most important thing I

think we can tell our patients is to " emphasise " warm meals in their

diet - in other words, pay attention to what is going into your body

and don't do too much of one and none of the other.

 

Laurie

[Guest guest]

 

>

>

> And I wonder how much this folk belief is connected to the

> contamination of raw food versus its inherent ill effects if it is

> " clean " .

 

I think it's inextricably linked with

the medical notion that putting foods

that are either cold or uncooked into

your stomach cools the stomach and

thereby lowers its activity, there

being a theoretical linkage between

heat and activity. Cooking changes

the food, of course, and makes it

both warmer and easier for the stomach

to break down into its constituents.

 

So theoretically, the workload on

the stomach is lower with warm, cooked

foods. One of the striking things

about Chinese folk knowledge about

food is how widespread it is. It is

a very common thing to be told what

a particular dish does in terms of

nourishing particular organs or

preventing particular afflictions.

 

There's lots of variation. But there's

also a lot of reliance upon old and

accepted ways of doing virtually everything

with food from planting to eating. And

no doubt a large part of this has to

do with trying to maintain acceptable

levels of hygiene as well as conforming

to the traditional dietary principles.

 

>

>

> I heard recently that the french think our association of food as

> medicine to be bordering on insane.

 

From an external point of view, i.e. outside

the US, a lot of American behavior looks

pretty nutty.

 

It is not just in china, but even

> here in the US where many folks think constantly in these terms. I

> wonder what's healthier, the french or chinese attitude.

>

The Chinese approach certainly includes eating

for pleasure. As Lin Yu Tang pointed out in

My Country, My People, one of the things that

Chinese do, given extensive leisure, is to

eat three meals in one. And the variety of

dishes, especially in Sichuan, is so extensive

that it seems incredible. I've been at meals

where the food keeps coming for hours on

end with no duplications.

 

As health results from being in harmony with

the environment, I think the healthy approach

lies not in cleaving to national norms but

in adjusting one's intake of food to correspond

to the conditions and needs of one's body at

certain times in certain places.

 

But it's always a good idea to enjoy what you

eat, as it puts the whole organism into the

right mode for digestion and metabolism.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

..

> >>>The enzyme issue is very debatable

> Alon

 

I agree. Even if the enzymes are intact in raw food, they may be

denatured by stomach acid making them nonfunctional in vivo.

 

[Guest guest]

, tgperez@e... wrote:

 

As for sushi or

> sashimi, don't forget that raw fish is typically eaten with a spicy,

> warm mixture of wasabi and soy sauce and served alongside copious

> amounts of fresh pickled ginger - which they consume with a little

> more gusto than we might over here. A sushi meal also begins with a

> steamy bowl of miso soup - something warm to start with.

 

I agree. this is the use of pao zhi and mutual antagonism in food

therapy. So raw food may be OK depending on preparation. My point is

to encourage people to eat properly, not just dismiss raw food out of

hand and end up with patients eating gresy thai food or avoiding

veggies altogether.

>

Pathology comes from eating excessive

> amounts of uncooked, difficult to digest foods when the body is not

> capable of dealing with the work-order they present.

 

But perhaps they are only difficult to digest if they are not " dressed "

properly

 

 

The most important thing I

> think we can tell our patients is to " emphasise " warm meals in their

> diet -

 

And a warm (or at least neutral) meal may include a salad with a spicy

dressing perhaps, especially if veggies like carrots and beets and

other root veggies are well represented.

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

Gee, I suddenly got hungry and peeled myself

away from the computer to have some lunch.

 

While I was eating I recalled a couple of

additional points you might want to consider.

 

The first is something the great Taiji boxer

Zheng Man Qing (aka Cheng Man Ching) said

to his students in New York before he left

them for the last time. In a lecture one

day he said he wanted to tell them the

three secrets of life, especially of long

life.

 

One of these was never eat until full. Always

leave a little room, a little appetite.

 

The second thing I recalled is closely

related. It's a passage from the Huai Nan Zi.

There's a relatively new translation available

that's very good. The book is called Original Tao.

I don't recall the translator's name off hand

and I haven't done a thorough investigation of

the book. But from the little I've read of

both the original text and the translation,

it's sound work by someone who has not only

become familiar with the language and the

sense of the text but with some tradition

of its applications.

 

My copy is in China and I can't quote the

passage verbatim, but there is a chapter

or two about food and one of the key points

the writers of this Daoist classic stressed

was not overeating. Overeating wastes the

qi4. And of course it leads to the myriad

ills of food accumulation.

 

Another important aspect of the temperature

of food is its effect on the speed and facility

with which the body gets rid of it, as a great

deal of what is eaten is cast off as waste.

 

Cold slows and stops. Heat makes things move.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

> I agree. Even if the enzymes are intact in raw food, they may be

> denatured by stomach acid making them nonfunctional in vivo.

>

Digestion of food begins long before

it reaches the stomach. The life

processes of the food are in flux

and this flux is all mitigated by

enzymatic action. When the enzymes

are eliminated through a range of

processing methods, of which cooking

is usually the terminal one, this

flux is slowed. Of course it can't

be stopped.

 

Our bodies produce enzymes to

facilitate the rates of change

in the flux of food that we

introduce into them. It's a fairly

intelligent network that calls for

the prodcution of enzymes as they

are needed based on intake.

 

The enzymes that digest starches

are produced in the mouth and

mixed with the food as it is chewed.

By the time it reaches the stomach,

these changes are in process.

 

Obviously the chemistry all changes

once the stomach is reached, but

what happens there depends on the

condition of what comes into it.

 

I agree that the enzyme issue is

open to debate, but I don't think

that the argument that stomach acids

denature enzymes is convincing with

respect to the benefits of ingesting

enzyme rich food.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, yulong@m... wrote:

 

> I agree that the enzyme issue is

> open to debate, but I don't think

> that the argument that stomach acids

> denature enzymes is convincing with

> respect to the benefits of ingesting

 

 

Good point, Ken. the enzymes are no doubt active until reaching the

stomach where they play some role in the mouth and esophagus. And some

enzymes apparently arrive intact all the way in the bloodstream, such

as bromelain, the pineapple enzyme. also, many people may be familiar

with what are called plant enzymes. Many companies now make these

enzymes as an alternative to pH sensitive pancreatin. the plant

enzymes are pH stable and functional from mouth to rectum. perhaps

many of the enzymes naturally occurring in veggies have this stability

also.