Precocious puberty

[Guest guest]

> I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help for

> her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas come

> up or if anyone has any experience with this.

 

 

At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin soon. 6

months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At this

point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical recommendation

is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do this. She

would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation for at

least a few years.

 

Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

 

Thanks.

 

Marnae

 

 

 

 

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would like to encourage you to contact

 

http://www.youngliving.us/

 

and ask for their clinic number. They have a staff of various practitioners

that might be able to help and use a variety of tests as well. They are

located in UT.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

>Marnae Ergil <marnae

>

>

> Re: Precocious Puberty

>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:55:35 -0400

>

>

> > I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help

>for

> > her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> > thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas come

> > up or if anyone has any experience with this.

>

>

>At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

>axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

>started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin soon. 6

>months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

>tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At this

>point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

>idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical recommendation

>is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do this. She

>would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation for at

>least a few years.

>

>Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

>

>Thanks.

>

>Marnae

>

>

>

>

> >

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

ann

 

 

 

> I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help for

> her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas come

> up or if anyone has any experience with this.

 

 

At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin soon. 6

months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At this

point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical recommendation

is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do this. She

would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation for at

least a few years.

 

Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

 

Thanks.

 

Marnae

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

descent.

 

Marnae

 

At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

>ann

>

>

>

> > I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help

> for

> > her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> > thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas come

> > up or if anyone has any experience with this.

>

>

> At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

> axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

> started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin soon. 6

> months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

> tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At

> this

> point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

> idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical recommendation

> is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do

> this. She

> would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation

> for at

> least a few years.

>

> Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Marnae

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy for this reason (too much

estrogen), but if that were really a problem, why wouldn't people in the

countries that consume a lot of soy have widespread over-feminization problems,

or early puberty, as Marnae's patient does?

 

Julie Chambers

 

-

Marnae Ergil

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:51 PM

Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

 

 

I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

descent.

 

Marnae

 

At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

>ann

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Besides soy, what about dairy and beef of a non-organic source? This

obviously is an aberration, but because of the extensive use of hormones in

cattle, particularly for the increased production of milk, it is not at all

uncommon for onset of puberty to be 1-2 years earlier than a generation ago.

I recall that this has been noted statistically, but don't recall where I

say it. Could anyone help?

 

Yehuda

-

" JulieJ8 " <Juliej8

 

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00 PM

Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

 

 

>I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy for this reason (too

>much estrogen), but if that were really a problem, why wouldn't people in

>the countries that consume a lot of soy have widespread over-feminization

>problems, or early puberty, as Marnae's patient does?

>

> Julie Chambers

>

> -

> Marnae Ergil

>

> Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:51 PM

> Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>

>

> I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

> descent.

>

> Marnae

>

> At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

> >ann

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The mother does not want to do this. She

would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation for at

least a few years.

>>>>Marnae use high dose DIM

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I also have read this, but this is a different situation. She started

puberty at age 4 (not just 1 -2 years early) and her bone growth shows that

her bone age is the same as that of an 11 year old. From the reading I

have done the greatest concern with Precocious Puberty is that the

individual (more common in girls than boys) will have an early growth spurt

and then stop growing and be extremely short. This seems to be even more

the case in girls who start the process before age 5. The use of Lupron

will evidently improve the girl's chances of growing to a " normal "

height. Interestingly, the age of definition for precocious puberty has

gone lower in recent years. It used to be before age 8 for caucasian girls

and before age 7 for black girls. It is now 7 for white and 6 for

black! The psychological impact of beginning to menstruate when you are

age 8 is huge but supposedly it does not have an impact on fertility. In

this case the mother is concerning about the having her 8 year old daughter

begin to menstruate and not understand what is going on. Also, there is

increased libido which concerns the mother as well.

 

Marnae

 

At 06:10 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>Besides soy, what about dairy and beef of a non-organic source? This

>obviously is an aberration, but because of the extensive use of hormones in

>cattle, particularly for the increased production of milk, it is not at all

>uncommon for onset of puberty to be 1-2 years earlier than a generation ago.

>I recall that this has been noted statistically, but don't recall where I

>say it. Could anyone help?

>

>Yehuda

>-

> " JulieJ8 " <Juliej8

>

>Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00 PM

>Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>

>

> >I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy for this reason (too

> >much estrogen), but if that were really a problem, why wouldn't people in

> >the countries that consume a lot of soy have widespread over-feminization

> >problems, or early puberty, as Marnae's patient does?

> >

> > Julie Chambers

> >

> > -

> > Marnae Ergil

> >

> > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:51 PM

> > Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

> >

> >

> > I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

> > descent.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> > At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> > >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

> > >ann

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well, for example, do Asians use soymilk baby formulas to any extent? I wonder

if statistically they consume as much soy as Americans have lately. Soy is

becoming ubiquitious in the US - in soy milks and products that contain them,

soy flours, soy fed to livestock. And of course, who hasn't seen their

vegetarian friends consume rather large chunks of tofu as a meat sub? We know

Americans are big eaters. So how much tofu will they consume to equal a 6-oz.

burger? And a lot of " health-conscious " moms have stocked up on soy milks by the

double quart. And then of course soy bars, soy crackers...I'm waiting for soy

beer! Point being - I think Asians typically consumed small amounts of

these(compared to Americans today), almost as a condiment. But some say the

lion's share of their soy comes from the fermented products(fermented soy

sauce/tamari, tempeh and natto) in which the fermentation has removed the enzyme

inhibitors that handicap digestion and phytates that block mineral absorption.

And these are things usually consumed in small portions. (Every tried eating a

cereal bowl full of natto? I'd wager not.)

 

Sally Fallon has written, " Various phytoestrogens, such as genistein, diadzen

and isoflavones, which occur in high quantities in modern cultivars of soybeans,

are currently promoted as panaceas for heart disease, cancer and osteoporosis.

Analysis shows that they are goitrogens - substances that depress thyroid

function. "

 

So...I am aware that the thyroid suppressing factor is a point of contention and

the final word may not be in. And this girl's growth is certainly not being

suppressed. Still, some hormone dysregulation is definitely going on. The

question, of course, is why? Should kids be consuming large quantities of soy in

so many forms? It's now thought questionable for infants. But toddlers? We've

had 4 decades of hippies and post-hippies thinking soy was the perfect

healthfood.

 

And soy is Big Agro.

 

ann

 

 

 

 

I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy for this reason (too much

estrogen), but if that were really a problem, why wouldn't people in the

countries that consume a lot of soy have widespread over-feminization problems,

or early puberty, as Marnae's patient does?

 

Julie Chambers

I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

descent.

 

Marnae

 

At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

>ann

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Also there is a source in various plastics that mimic sex hormones and block

adequate utilization. Not sure that this would cause this but it could

possibly.

 

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> " " <

>

>

>Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>Tue, 9 Aug 2005 15:10:06 -0700

>

>Besides soy, what about dairy and beef of a non-organic source? This

>obviously is an aberration, but because of the extensive use of hormones in

>cattle, particularly for the increased production of milk, it is not at all

>uncommon for onset of puberty to be 1-2 years earlier than a generation

>ago.

>I recall that this has been noted statistically, but don't recall where I

>say it. Could anyone help?

>

>Yehuda

>-

> " JulieJ8 " <Juliej8

>

>Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00 PM

>Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>

>

> >I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy for this reason (too

> >much estrogen), but if that were really a problem, why wouldn't people in

> >the countries that consume a lot of soy have widespread over-feminization

> >problems, or early puberty, as Marnae's patient does?

> >

> > Julie Chambers

> >

> > -

> > Marnae Ergil

> >

> > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:51 PM

> > Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

> >

> >

> > I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

> > descent.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> > At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> > >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any

>chance?

> > >ann

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Marnae,

 

Interesting case. I have an equally interesting one, at the other end of the

spectrum - a young man with delayed maturation. I also have yet to see this

patient, but the question that keeps coming to my mind in his case, is whether

there are any cold signs. Similarly, in your patient's case, I wonder whether

there are signs of excess heat.

 

 

 

Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

descent.

 

Marnae

 

At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

>ann

>

>

>

> > I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help

> for

> > her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> > thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas come

> > up or if anyone has any experience with this.

>

>

> At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

> axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

> started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin soon. 6

> months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

> tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At

> this

> point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

> idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical recommendation

> is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do

> this. She

> would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation

> for at

> least a few years.

>

> Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Marnae

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

this young girl also will be well advised to avoid any

non-organic dairy products grown w/ rgbh. There are

increasing #s of animal products available, nicely,

produced w/o hormones & prophylactic antbx. this young

girl has some abberrant jing perhaps, my comments

simply look to her future. lynn

---

< wrote:

> Besides soy, what about dairy and beef of a

non-organic source? This

> obviously is an aberration, but because of the

extensive use of hormones in

> cattle, particularly for the increased production of

milk, it is not at all

> uncommon for onset of puberty to be 1-2 years

earlier than a generation ago.

> I recall that this has been noted statistically, but

don't recall where I

> say it. Could anyone help?

>

> Yehuda

> -

> " JulieJ8 " <Juliej8

>

> Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:00 PM

> Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>

>

> >I have heard people lately maligning the use of soy

for this reason (too

> >much estrogen), but if that were really a problem,

why wouldn't people in

> >the countries that consume a lot of soy have

widespread over-feminization

> >problems, or early puberty, as Marnae's patient

does?

> >

> > Julie Chambers

> >

> > -

> > Marnae Ergil

> >

> > Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:51 PM

> > Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

> >

> >

> > I don't know yet, but a good question to ask.

She is of middle eastern

> > descent.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> > At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> > >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy

products, by any chance?

> > >ann

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various

professional services, including

> > board approved continuing education classes, an

annual conference and a

> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I liked to hear about the WM condition but want to hear more about the CM

findings, when known. WM conditions tend to be at the extemes of signs and

symptomology and quite variable I have found in practice.

 

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

 

 

 

> <

>

>

>Re: Re: Precocious Puberty

>Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT)

>

>Hi Marnae,

>

>Interesting case. I have an equally interesting one, at the other end of

>the spectrum - a young man with delayed maturation. I also have yet to see

>this patient, but the question that keeps coming to my mind in his case, is

>whether there are any cold signs. Similarly, in your patient's case, I

>wonder whether there are signs of excess heat.

>

>

>

>Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

>I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

>descent.

>

>Marnae

>

>At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

> >ann

> >

> >

> >

> > > I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for

>help

> > for

> > > her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> > > thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas

>come

> > > up or if anyone has any experience with this.

> >

> >

> > At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body

>odor,

> > axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

> > started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin

>soon. 6

> > months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

> > tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At

> > this

> > point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

> > idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical

>recommendation

> > is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do

> > this. She

> > would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation

> > for at

> > least a few years.

> >

> > Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Don't know yet, but my thinking ismore that there is probably a deep kidney

vacuity that is causing hyperfunction of the hormonal system. Although she

is young, she is having rapid aging and the control system for the hormones

is out of balance - I am suspecting more of a kidney yin vacuity with

heat. I hope to have more information soon.

 

Marnae

 

At 10:17 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

>Hi Marnae,

>

>Interesting case. I have an equally interesting one, at the other end of

>the spectrum - a young man with delayed maturation. I also have yet to

>see this patient, but the question that keeps coming to my mind in his

>case, is whether there are any cold signs. Similarly, in your patient's

>case, I wonder whether there are signs of excess heat.

>

>

>

>Marnae Ergil <marnae wrote:

>I don't know yet, but a good question to ask. She is of middle eastern

>descent.

>

>Marnae

>

>At 04:24 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

> >I have to ask....Does she consume a lot of soy products, by any chance?

> >ann

> >

> >

> >

> > > I have just received a call from a desperate mother looking for help

> > for

> > > her 8 year old daughter. Although I have not seen the girl yet, I

> > > thought I would present what I know to the group and see what ideas

> come

> > > up or if anyone has any experience with this.

> >

> >

> > At age 4 she began to breast development. This was followed by body odor,

> > axillary hair and then pubic hair. She is now 8 years old and has not

> > started menstruating yet, but there is concern that it will begin

> soon. 6

> > months ago her bone age was tested at 10 years old. Last week it was

> > tested at 11 years old - this rapid increase is a new development. At

> > this

> > point her physicians have found no " cause " for the condition - it is

> > idiopathic. There is no tumor development. The biomedical

> recommendation

> > is regular injections of Lupron. The mother does not want to do

> > this. She

> > would like to slow development and prevent the onset of menstruation

> > for at

> > least a few years.

> >

> > Any thought would be useful. Bob? Z'ev?

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Marnae (et al),

 

It's been great timing for me to be reading all of this. I just started treating

a patient and

discovered she began menstruating at age 9. (She came to me for acute dental

pain--

could hardly talk, couldn't eat or sleep--so needless to say I didn't get the

fullest of

histories. But she was so amazed by the results of the acupuncture, that she's

coming

back to address some underlying issues. I'd be happy to share more details, as I

know

them.)

 

Interesting, too, what you said about the mother's fears of precocious puberty

leading to

early sexual behavior. My patient had a baby at 16--maybe you shouldn't repeat

that to

the mom. I'm not sure at what age she became sexually active. I don't know much

about

her childhood/family, except that she said she " grew up in the ghetto. " She is

African-

American too.

 

Something I recall about early maturation in girls that I don't think has been

mentioned in

this discussion is the presence of non-familial adult males. Also I'm recalling

years ago

when I attended a conference on teen pregnancy having heard that there's

evidence that

becoming fertile and having babies young may be an adaptive/evolutionary

behavior: In

communities where life expectancy is shortened by violence and drugs, you need

to have

babies earlier to insure you survive long enough to reproduce.

 

It's probably difficult, too, to tease out what exactly can cause early puberty.

In my

patient's case you might also be able to make a case for environmental

pollutants playing

a role. Poor urban communities often get a disproportionate share of toxic

industry and

industrial byproducts. Then there's the previously mentioned soy argument. One

article I

read said that physicians have tended to put African-American babies on

soy-based

formula, because of fears of lactose intolerance.

 

I've been wondering about all of this in the context of my patient, Marnae's

patient (know

anything about her family and home environment?), and TCM in general.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Best,

 

Sarah Rivkin

[Guest guest]

Sarah -

 

Interestingly, according to " standards " your patient is not considered

early but it is important to note that in the past generation, the normal

age for the onset of puberty has gone down. Clearly there is a dietary

connection and soy products, meat hormones and chemicals in plastics are

all implicated. There is clear epidemiological evidence that menses begin

earlier in african girls than in caucasian girls (including hispanic girls)

but the asian population has not been studied. We know that it is also

associated with the storage of fat in the body and so the increased

incidence of obesity and lack of exercise in children in also implicated.

 

 

Certainly, from an anthropological perspective to begin menstruating at age

9 and then begin reproducing during one's teens years is a very important

method of preservation of a lineage, but over the past 1 -2 hundred years

the age of menarche in the west seems to have gotten later and then begun a

move back again.

 

 

Part of what I am trying to understand is the CM mechanism at play here. I

have not seen the patient - and probably won't for a week or 2 as her

mother explores options, but I am very intrigued by the problem. One of

the issues of unregulated estrogen in the body at such a young age is an

increase in the incidence of breast, uterine and ovarian cancer in these

girls. But, at the same time, no long term studies on the side effects of

Lupron have been conducted so no one knows the effect it may have on a

girls fertility. But, what is going on according to CM? As I said

earlier, my suspicion is that there is a kidney yin vacuity that is

resulting in hyperactivity of the kidney yang causing early growth and

maturation. Interestingly however, the early growth spurts will likely

result in a shortened stature because the bones fuse too early and the

individual stops growing. So, after the yang has expressed its

hyperactivity and perhaps, the yin is more supported by additional

postnatal essence, the individual appears to balance out again - although I

would assume that there is an ongoing vacuity of ki yin and yang by this

point. So my treatment, would be to enrich yin, possibly secure the chong

& ren, and subdue yang.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Marnae

 

 

 

At 10:26 PM 8/10/2005, you wrote:

>Marnae (et al),

>

>It's been great timing for me to be reading all of this. I just started

>treating a patient and

>discovered she began menstruating at age 9. (She came to me for acute

>dental pain--

>could hardly talk, couldn't eat or sleep--so needless to say I didn't get

>the fullest of

>histories. But she was so amazed by the results of the acupuncture, that

>she's coming

>back to address some underlying issues. I'd be happy to share more

>details, as I know

>them.)

>

>Interesting, too, what you said about the mother's fears of precocious

>puberty leading to

>early sexual behavior. My patient had a baby at 16--maybe you shouldn't

>repeat that to

>the mom. I'm not sure at what age she became sexually active. I don't know

>much about

>her childhood/family, except that she said she " grew up in the ghetto. "

>She is African-

>American too.

>

>Something I recall about early maturation in girls that I don't think has

>been mentioned in

>this discussion is the presence of non-familial adult males. Also I'm

>recalling years ago

>when I attended a conference on teen pregnancy having heard that there's

>evidence that

>becoming fertile and having babies young may be an adaptive/evolutionary

>behavior: In

>communities where life expectancy is shortened by violence and drugs, you

>need to have

>babies earlier to insure you survive long enough to reproduce.

>

>It's probably difficult, too, to tease out what exactly can cause early

>puberty. In my

>patient's case you might also be able to make a case for environmental

>pollutants playing

>a role. Poor urban communities often get a disproportionate share of toxic

>industry and

>industrial byproducts. Then there's the previously mentioned soy argument.

>One article I

>read said that physicians have tended to put African-American babies on

>soy-based

>formula, because of fears of lactose intolerance.

>

>I've been wondering about all of this in the context of my patient,

>Marnae's patient (know

>anything about her family and home environment?), and TCM in general.

>

>Any thoughts?

>

>Best,

>

>Sarah Rivkin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Marnae,

 

Would 9 have been considered early 20 years ago? I know the threshold has been

gradually lowering.

 

TCM thoughts: Can one assume there's a pre-heaven component? With my pt. I'm not

seeing a lot of overt signs of KI yin or yang vacuity. A tendency perhaps to

yang vacuity--

more on the feeling cold end of the spectrum, a little extra weight, and has BMs

every 2-3

days. What's most obvious in her constitution is spleen qi vacuity with

damp-heat and

some binding depression of liver qi. Possibly some blood vacuity too.

 

I'll explore the KI issue more fully the next time I see her. When she came in

this past week

(2nd visit) the pain was under control, but she was complaining that the ear on

that side

felt full and her hearing was diminished. We're planning on beginning to tackle

her gyn

complaints when I next see her in early September.

 

Shall keep you posted.

 

Best,

 

Sarah

 

, Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote:

> Sarah -

>

> Interestingly, according to " standards " your patient is not considered

> early but it is important to note that in the past generation, the normal

> age for the onset of puberty has gone down. Clearly there is a dietary

> connection and soy products, meat hormones and chemicals in plastics are

> all implicated. There is clear epidemiological evidence that menses begin

> earlier in african girls than in caucasian girls (including hispanic girls)

> but the asian population has not been studied. We know that it is also

> associated with the storage of fat in the body and so the increased

> incidence of obesity and lack of exercise in children in also implicated.

>

>

> Certainly, from an anthropological perspective to begin menstruating at age

> 9 and then begin reproducing during one's teens years is a very important

> method of preservation of a lineage, but over the past 1 -2 hundred years

> the age of menarche in the west seems to have gotten later and then begun a

> move back again.

>

>

> Part of what I am trying to understand is the CM mechanism at play here. I

> have not seen the patient - and probably won't for a week or 2 as her

> mother explores options, but I am very intrigued by the problem. One of

> the issues of unregulated estrogen in the body at such a young age is an

> increase in the incidence of breast, uterine and ovarian cancer in these

> girls. But, at the same time, no long term studies on the side effects of

> Lupron have been conducted so no one knows the effect it may have on a

> girls fertility. But, what is going on according to CM? As I said

> earlier, my suspicion is that there is a kidney yin vacuity that is

> resulting in hyperactivity of the kidney yang causing early growth and

> maturation. Interestingly however, the early growth spurts will likely

> result in a shortened stature because the bones fuse too early and the

> individual stops growing. So, after the yang has expressed its

> hyperactivity and perhaps, the yin is more supported by additional

> postnatal essence, the individual appears to balance out again - although I

> would assume that there is an ongoing vacuity of ki yin and yang by this

> point. So my treatment, would be to enrich yin, possibly secure the chong

> & ren, and subdue yang.

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> Marnae

>

>

>

> At 10:26 PM 8/10/2005, you wrote:

> >Marnae (et al),

> >

> >It's been great timing for me to be reading all of this. I just started

> >treating a patient and

> >discovered she began menstruating at age 9. (She came to me for acute

> >dental pain--

> >could hardly talk, couldn't eat or sleep--so needless to say I didn't get

> >the fullest of

> >histories. But she was so amazed by the results of the acupuncture, that

> >she's coming

> >back to address some underlying issues. I'd be happy to share more

> >details, as I know

> >them.)

> >

> >Interesting, too, what you said about the mother's fears of precocious

> >puberty leading to

> >early sexual behavior. My patient had a baby at 16--maybe you shouldn't

> >repeat that to

> >the mom. I'm not sure at what age she became sexually active. I don't know

> >much about

> >her childhood/family, except that she said she " grew up in the ghetto. "

> >She is African-

> >American too.

> >

> >Something I recall about early maturation in girls that I don't think has

> >been mentioned in

> >this discussion is the presence of non-familial adult males. Also I'm

> >recalling years ago

> >when I attended a conference on teen pregnancy having heard that there's

> >evidence that

> >becoming fertile and having babies young may be an adaptive/evolutionary

> >behavior: In

> >communities where life expectancy is shortened by violence and drugs, you

> >need to have

> >babies earlier to insure you survive long enough to reproduce.

> >

> >It's probably difficult, too, to tease out what exactly can cause early

> >puberty. In my

> >patient's case you might also be able to make a case for environmental

> >pollutants playing

> >a role. Poor urban communities often get a disproportionate share of toxic

> >industry and

> >industrial byproducts. Then there's the previously mentioned soy argument.

> >One article I

> >read said that physicians have tended to put African-American babies on

> >soy-based

> >formula, because of fears of lactose intolerance.

> >

> >I've been wondering about all of this in the context of my patient,

> >Marnae's patient (know

> >anything about her family and home environment?), and TCM in general.

> >

> >Any thoughts?

> >

> >Best,

> >

> >Sarah Rivkin

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Precocious puberty is on the rise. It is not as devastating for little boys as

it is for little girls. It can lead to depression, withdrawal, loss of interest

in life and many serious psychological symptoms. It is commonly treated with

drugs to retard physical maturing. Why is this happening? Meat and dairy

products are rife with growth hormones, not to mention antibiotics and steroids.

Can this be the cause? Another stout argument in defense of a raw food diet

which would very likely be a superior way to reverse precocious puberty.

Pharmaceuticals rarely, if ever " cure " anything.

Betsy