hmmm...

May 12, 1999

Dear everybody,

Love and Namaskar,

We do not know the key to our own riches! How nicely said!

But the graceful Trio has given guidelines to search for the same with

assurance that it will be found. '...either by selfless work, or

worship, or discrimination , or psychic control', as Swamiji said.

To lift oneself one step higher from the step one finds himself on is

going Godward. My step may be at the bottom, and some one else may be at

the higher level; but if I lift myself by sadhana and the fellow higher

up, instead of going still higher looks down upon me and others, will

always find it difficult reach God.

Hence nobody is right or wrong; or higher or lower, on the path of

spirituality. The intensity, sincerity, and yearning for Realizing GOD

(SELF, BRAHMAN, ATMAN, TRUTH) determines, in the final analysis, the

level of spiritual progress of an aspirant.

dr c s shah

Tim Gerchmez wrote:

>

> Tim Gerchmez <fewtch

>

> At 09:09 AM 5/11/99 +0800, you wrote:

> >K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan

>

> > Sorry if I had offended you in the first reply. But please let me

> >explain my contention. As Jivas, we are all ignorant. The term itself

> >implies the individual, 'cause there was never an indviduality. Swamiji was

> >also very careful in saying this. He would usually say that everyone is not

> >Divine, but POTENTIALLY Divine.

>

> This is not true. Everyone is Divine, but not aware of it, due to

> ignorance. Being unaware of our essential divinity, it is of no use. If a

> person had a large brick of gold hidden away in the basement, but wasn't

> aware it was there, would it do them any good? They would be monetarily

> rich, but not know it. So it is with our divinity. We are already divine,

> already One with Brahman. The point is, now we have to know this. We are

> already rich spiritually, but don't know the " numbers " to our own " bank

> accounts. "

>

> Hari OM,

>

> Tim

>

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> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

May 12, 1999

Dear everybody,

Namaste,

A big elephant and a small mouse are prepared out of same gold. As gold

both are same, but name and form also give them a different identity.

Then we have to accept more expression of 'goldenness' in one than the

other.

We are all God, this Advaita Vedantic position need not be doubted, but

is the divinity in me and, say, a Swami of the R. K. Order equal? Why do

we then seek their blessings and take the dust of their feet? (At least

I do take.)

It is not a question of kind, I agree; but the question of degree you

should also accept.

dr c s shah

JodyHolly1 wrote:

>

> JodyHolly1

>

> In a message dated 5/11/99 10:10:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> fewtch writes:

>

> << The point is, now we have to know this. >>

> The point is, whether we know it or not, it is still the Truth. The sun is

> always shining even though we cannot see it on cloudy days. The Self is

> always lighting our way even though we do not know that. God decides when we

> realize our Divine Nature. In the meantime, He gets to play hide and seek to

> His heart's delight.

>

> Love,

> Jody

>

> ------

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> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

May 12, 1999

Namaste Jody

Thanks for the beautiful reply. I agree that everything is Brahman and that

we are God. To be truthful, I don't see it. Let me quote Sri Ramakrishna:

" I see Him as all. Men and other creatures appear to me only as hollow

forms, moving their heads and hands and feet, but within is the Lord

Himself. " I don't dare utter such statements. I take the authority of the

greats such Sri Ramakrishna and Swamiji. Simply because I don't see it.

They have seen it. Intellectually I am able to grasp the conclusions of

Vedanta but I am yet to experience it. Putting Vedanta into practice is

also what I am doing in my life. But I am doing it as a learner, an

ignorant who is still being crushed by the wheels of Samsara. Jivaseva

(service to mankind) is important and actively preached by Swamiji. But

what is the benefit? I still remember his answer to this question. It

purifies the mind and makes it fit to receive God. If we are God, what need

is there for self-effort or Sadhana? I am a Sadhaka and not a Jivamukta.

Maybe I am wrong, please pardon me if I am. Swamiji's teachings to me are

universal. Everyone finds one aspect appealing and holds on to that. Maybe

both of us are looking at different sides of the same diamond. But the

Truth is still the same.

Om Shanti

Kathi

>

> JodyHolly1 [sMTP:JodyHolly1]

> Tuesday, May 11, 1999 11:04 PM

> Ramakrishna

> Re: [ramakrishna] hmmm...

>

> JodyHolly1

>

> Dear Kathi,

>

> All is divine. All is God. We are all God's creation. I have read

> everything that Swamiji said and His consistent message is that we are all

>

> God. It is NOT that we are POTENTIALLY GOD. We ARE God. Ignorance is a

> game that God plays. In other words, God likes to play hide and seek.

> (Hee

> Hee)

>

> All of creation is God playing. My post on Sunday was a direct quote from

>

> Swamiji about God playing through us, through this creation.

>

> I encourage all to write whatever they feel moved to write and question in

>

> whatever way they feel moved to question the teachings of Vedanta.

> Everyone

> needs to be honored where they are at.

>

> By the way, I did not understand your statement about ignorance to be

> personal, so no need for an apology my dear.

>

> You have a wonderful day.

>

> Jody

>

> ------

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>

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> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

May 12, 1999

At 02:27 PM 5/11/99 EDT, you wrote:

>JodyHolly1

><< The point is, now we have to know this. >>

>The point is, whether we know it or not, it is still the Truth. The sun is

>always shining even though we cannot see it on cloudy days. The Self is

>always lighting our way even though we do not know that. God decides when

we

>realize our Divine Nature.

Our Higher Selves *are* God. Thus, it is (in a sense) us that decides when

we are ready. There are 'different kinds' of realization, as well,

depending on the individual. I've met some that seem to have almost

TOTALLY dropped the mind/ego, and lost most emotions. Others keep some

semblance of ego, of personality. In some, personality is made stronger,

and so are emotions. Each mind is different, and thus will interpret what

is " filtered down " to it beyond the mind differently. That's why so many

" Realized gurus " are so different. You would think that, for example,

Shankara and Ramakrishna would be identical in personality, in their

writings and experiences after liberation. But their basic personality

traits remained after Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Moksha.

Realization is ultimately a mystery. All we can do is prepare the way,

open the door (through practice) and wait for Grace to enter. For some, it

may happen instantly, for some it may take 50 lifetimes. It is up to

Grace, and also our circumstances, sincerity, humility, karma and many

other factors come into play. But it certainly does not happen through the

ego or any particular kind of action, I'll agree with you on that.

I think we can also agree that no right spiritual practice is ever wasted,

even if it does not " result " in liberation in this lifetime.

Hari OM,

Tim

-----

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May 12, 1999

At 07:30 AM 5/12/99 +0530, you wrote:

>Dear everybody,

>The intensity, sincerity, and yearning for Realizing GOD

>(SELF, BRAHMAN, ATMAN, TRUTH) determines, in the final analysis, the

>level of spiritual progress of an aspirant.

Yes, and karmas from this and other lifetimes may also play a part, as well

as proper circumstances and location. Ultimately, it is a mystery how

liberation comes about - some rare individuals are perhaps even born fully

enlightened. All we can do is practice with sincerity to prepare the way

for God to enter (same definition of God that you gave), with whatever path

we are directed onto by Grace.

Hari OM,

Tim

-----

Visit The Core of the WWW at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

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http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html

May 12, 1999

At 07:43 AM 5/12/99 +0530, you wrote:

>Dear everybody,

>A big elephant and a small mouse are prepared out of same gold. As gold

>both are same, but name and form also give them a different identity.

>Then we have to accept more expression of 'goldenness' in one than the

>other. We are all God, this Advaita Vedantic position need not be

doubted, >but is the divinity in me and, say, a Swami of the R. K. Order

equal?

Absolutely equal.

>Why do we then seek their blessings and take the dust of their feet? (At

least

>I do take.)

Because they have realized their divinity, when maybe we have not. Or, it

is just Bhakti, a tool used to get rid of the ego by selflessly dedicating

oneself to another who is worthy.

>It is not a question of kind, I agree; but the question of degree you

>should also accept.

Degree of ignorance or non-ignorance is the only degree there is. All are

equally divine, from a grain of sand on the beach to a human being to a

whale. All are Brahman. Can Brahman be present in greater or lesser

degree in some people?

Hari OM,

Tim

-----

Visit The Core of the WWW at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

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http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html

May 12, 1999

In a message dated 5/11/99 7:15:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

drcssha writes:

<< We are all God, this Advaita Vedantic position need not be doubted, but

is the divinity in me and, say, a Swami of the R. K. Order equal? >>

YES!!!!

<<Why do

we then seek their blessings and take the dust of their feet?>>

Because we live in the illusion that their divinity is greater. There is

only one; God exists in everyone to the same degree; it is a matter of

realization. When we honor the Divine in a swami, we are actually honoring

the Divine in ourselves. God plays different roles. One is a Swami; one is

a " biker " (like the one about which I shared with you); one is a householder.

But it is ALL God. There's no way out. There is no place where God is not.

When we water the plants, it is God watering the plants; when we watch a

movie, it is God watching a movie. When we argue with our neighbor, it is

God arguing. There's simply no way out. God is God is God. God is not a

little bit here; some more over there; a little less over there. It is up to

us to KNOW the truth about existence and that is that God IS!

Spiritual practices do not result in enlightenment; spiritual practices

create conditions for enlightenment to happen; it is up to God to bestow

enlightenment at His whim...but that does not mean that once we are

enlightened we are more God. God exists within all to the same degree at all

times.

Love,

Jody

May 12, 1999

I am not recieving all the mails from the mailing list.

May be in " God experiencing " experience is not the right word to describe

the reason for this creation. Something which is beyond to be expreesed in

words.

Why does this cosmos exist ? why does God exist ?

On Mon, 10 May 1999, K Kathirasan ADM NCS wrote:

> K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan

>

> > > << Why does God want to " experience Itself through Its creation " ? >>

> > > There are some things to which we do not have answers. Thank God!

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > Here is my 2 cents worth. The above question arises out of ignorance.

> > Who is asking this question? Is that a potentially divine person or a

> > divine person. If you are a potentially divine person (i.e. a Jiva in

> > ignorance), then forever you keep asking this question and will never find

> > the answer. The moment you find the answer, then you realise that you are

> > divine. At that moment, if that divine person asks this same question,

> > then it would be: God is asking God why God created. God is asking God

> > why God wants to experience. Isn't it funny? The question itself proves

> > that the questioner is ignorant. The only way to find the answer is to

> > ask these instead: Who am I? Why am I asking this question? Who is this

> > questioner? By God's grace, we'll find the answer.

> >

> > Om SHanti

> > Kathi

>

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>

> Sign up for the ONElist Weekly Survey. Go to homepage for details.

> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

May 12, 1999

In a message dated 5/12/99 10:17:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

anurag writes:

<< Jivaseva

> (service to mankind) is important and actively preached by Swamiji. But

> what is the benefit? I still remember his answer to this question. It

> purifies the mind and makes it fit to receive God. >>

YES! Swamiji said to meditate with one's eyes open, by helping the poor, by

doing service to God's creation. We are so blessed to have Vivekananda as

our beloved teacher. His words are so succinct, no room for doubt, no room

for the mind to play its games. Just the Truth, plain and simple!

With love and gratitude,

Jody (Premadevi)

May 12, 1999

>

> Namaste Jody

>

> Thanks for the beautiful reply. I agree that everything is Brahman and that

> we are God. To be truthful, I don't see it. Let me quote Sri Ramakrishna:

> " I see Him as all. Men and other creatures appear to me only as hollow

> forms, moving their heads and hands and feet, but within is the Lord

> Himself. " I don't dare utter such statements. I take the authority of the

> greats such Sri Ramakrishna and Swamiji. Simply because I don't see it.

> They have seen it. Intellectually I am able to grasp the conclusions of

> Vedanta but I am yet to experience it. Putting Vedanta into practice is

> also what I am doing in my life. But I am doing it as a learner, an

> ignorant who is still being crushed by the wheels of Samsara.

Jivaseva

> (service to mankind) is important and actively preached by Swamiji. But

> what is the benefit? I still remember his answer to this question. It

> purifies the mind and makes it fit to receive God.

It helps one seeing all as one's own. It helps in feeling wat pain is.

It helps shunning away thoughts of discrimination. It helps in building

love for all. And the thought shouldn't be that i am becoming pure rather

one goes to help them irrespective of any rewards just like a mother

who rushes to help her child w/o giving it a second thought.

> If we are God, what need

> is there for self-effort or Sadhana? I am a Sadhaka and not a Jivamukta.

>

> Maybe I am wrong, please pardon me if I am. Swamiji's teachings to me are

> universal. Everyone finds one aspect appealing and holds on to that. Maybe

> both of us are looking at different sides of the same diamond. But the

> Truth is still the same.

>

> Om Shanti

> Kathi

>

May 13, 1999

Similarly, Gandhiji writes

" One who would serve will not waste a thought upon his own comforts, which

he leaves to be attended to or neglected by his Master on High. Voluntary

service of others demands the best of which one is capable, and must take

precedence over service of self "

JodyHolly1 <JodyHolly1

Ramakrishna <Ramakrishna >

12 May 1999 23:10

Re: [ramakrishna] hmmm...

>JodyHolly1

>

>In a message dated 5/12/99 10:17:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>anurag writes:

>

><< Jivaseva

> > (service to mankind) is important and actively preached by Swamiji. But

> > what is the benefit? I still remember his answer to this question. It

> > purifies the mind and makes it fit to receive God. >>

>

>YES! Swamiji said to meditate with one's eyes open, by helping the poor,

by

>doing service to God's creation. We are so blessed to have Vivekananda as

>our beloved teacher. His words are so succinct, no room for doubt, no room

>for the mind to play its games. Just the Truth, plain and simple!

>

>With love and gratitude,

>Jody (Premadevi)

>

>------

>How many communities do you think join ONElist each day?

>

>More than 1,000!

>------

>Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

>Vivekananda Centre London

>http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

May 13, 1999

Namaste Kathi,

Thanks for that answer.

The discussion of being 'God' or 'part of God' etc is most interesting.

From a theoretical perspective, Adwaita Vedanta is certainly a most

fascinating subject. However, from a practical perspective, trying to

realise the Infinite or even to comprehend the concept of infinity can be

really mind blowing. Another difficulty stems when the ego could be boosted

when thinking oneself as 'God' without the necessary prepardness - both

spritually and mentally. I believe that the approach to 'God' via Jnana

yoga path is extremely difficult - with the danger that the approach to God

becomes 'Dry'. - What do people think?

Ramakrishna considered that amoungst his inner group - only Swami

Vivekananda was most suitable to follow the path of Jnana Yoga. (I may be

corrected in respect to this).

When examining the lives of many God realised souls (recent ones), I can

only think of two who are really Jnana Yogis - Swami Vivekananda and Raman

Maharishi. Can others think of any other examples?? There are however many

examples of enlightened souls who realised God following the path of Karma

and Bhakti yoga.

Harshad Parekh

kathirasan on 12/05/99 03:33:00

Please respond to Ramakrishna

Ramakrishna

cc: (bcc: Hari Parekh/UK/CSC)

Re: [ramakrishna] hmmm...

K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan

Namaste Jody

Thanks for the beautiful reply. I agree that everything is Brahman and

that