Guest guest Report post Posted July 18, 2007 Hi All, I have been taking Amma's darshan on and off for the last 15 years now! In the beginning I only went because my mom dragged me to the Ashram. But over the last few years I have started taking my own spiritual practices very seriously. I have now reached a stage where I am convinced that I need a guru. And it is for this reason that I am writing in this forum. I have no doubt that Amma is a great soul. I cannot even begin to understand Amma's greatness. But having said this, there are a few things that bother me and I would like to have clarification from the senior devotees on this forum. I have no issues in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru. But where I have an issue is with worshipping Amma as a bhagavan. It's pretty clear when one goes to any of the center's that the whole organization is based on Amma as the center. I kinda feel that even if Amma is a avatara still the whole organization should be based on Krishna or Devi as the center. I find it very disturbing when I see people worshipping her, singing bhagan's about amma, doing the pada puja etc as if she were Devi incarnate. But having said all this, I can also see the miracle and the unconditional love that is Amma. I cannot even fathom what Amma must be like to hug millions of people, and listen to their problems and help people for no personal reason. Its quite mind boggling. So in the end I get really confused. Can someone try to explain to me who is Amma? Thank you -Narendra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 18, 2007 Om Namah Shivaya! You asked a question and your question indicates your keenness to know more about Amma and your self. The answer to your question who is Amma is " Who you feel Amma is for you " . Your internal experience is more important for you than what someone else tells about Amma. Same is the case of everyone. Each individual is free to feel who Amma is. He or she can feel Amma is father, mother, Guru, friend or God and can feel blessed on that. You also see unconditional love in Amma and that is what God is. So you are also seeing God in Amma. No doubt people worship Amma as they see Devi in Amma. Again remember Kabir telling Guru is bigger than God. Also confusion is the gateway for knowledge. Just find how you feel and what you learn from that. Your internal experience only counts for you and you are your best friend. Cheers, Mahadevan Venkitaraman --- Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been taking Amma's darshan on and off for > the last 15 years now! In > the beginning I only went because my mom dragged me > to the Ashram. But over > the last few years I have started taking my own > spiritual practices very > seriously. I have now reached a stage where I am > convinced that I need a > guru. And it is for this reason that I am writing in > this forum. > > I have no doubt that Amma is a great soul. I > cannot even begin to > understand Amma's greatness. But having said this, > there are a few things > that bother me and I would like to have > clarification from the senior > devotees on this forum. > > I have no issues in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru. > But where I have an > issue is with worshipping Amma as a bhagavan. It's > pretty clear when one > goes to any of the center's that the whole > organization is based on Amma as > the center. I kinda feel that even if Amma is a > avatara still the whole > organization should be based on Krishna or Devi as > the center. I find it > very disturbing when I see people worshipping her, > singing bhagan's about > amma, doing the pada puja etc as if she were Devi > incarnate. > > But having said all this, I can also see the miracle > and the unconditional > love that is Amma. I cannot even fathom what Amma > must be like to hug > millions of people, and listen to their problems and > help people for no > personal reason. Its quite mind boggling. So in the > end I get really > confused. > > > > Can someone try to explain to me who is Amma? > > > > Thank you > > -Narendra > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ______________________________\ ____ Get the toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar./toolbar/features/mail/index.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 18, 2007 Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that ultimately only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who Amma is, I still won't understand. Yesterday night at the Boston retreat someone asked Amma about Krishna marrying 16,108 wives. In response to this question Amma said that Krishna never married a single girl. Apparently Krishna was a Brahmachari. The swamiji then quoted a story how when Maharaja Parikchit was born, he was born lifeless. Then Krishna went up to the boy and said that if its true that I have followed the vows of brahmacharya truthfully then let this boy come back to life. And of course the boy came back to life. So this story was used to prove that Krishna never got married to any woman. Secondly Amma also said that Bhagavatham is not a true book and it's a mere story. She said that only Bhagvad Gita is true and in that also its mentioned that Krishna is a brahmachari. Anyone present at the retreat yesterday night can verify this story. I wasn't there, but my mom was present. Also my mom somewhat understands Malayalam, so shes pretty sure that this is what Amma said and not some mistake made by the swamiji in translation. Upon hearing this I find it extremely disturbing. I would like to hear the opinion of other senior members on this forum. Secondly I asked my mom to find out who is Amma's guru and what are the guiding principle's of the organization. Apparently my mom found out that Amma has no guru. I cannot believe this to be true. Even Lord Krishna had a Guru. My mom also found out that guiding principles are simply the words of Amma. My mom specifically asked which scripture was followed/recommended. Again the answer was no scripture is being followed. The guiding principle is that of universal love. I of course agree that love is the single most important thing in this universe. However, there is a very good reason why we have scriptures. I think just as guru is important to make progress so is the knowledge of the scriptures like Gita and Bhagavatham. As we slowly understand these scriptures from a proper guru, it automatically purifies our hearts. That's the value of the scriptures. When the whole organization is based off just one person, then it slowly starts degrading into a cult. As I try to understand more about Amma and her teachings, this leads me to more questions than answers. -Narendra Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of mahadevanv Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:17 PM Ammachi Re: A sincere question Om Namah Shivaya! You asked a question and your question indicates your keenness to know more about Amma and your self. The answer to your question who is Amma is " Who you feel Amma is for you " . Your internal experience is more important for you than what someone else tells about Amma. Same is the case of everyone. Each individual is free to feel who Amma is. He or she can feel Amma is father, mother, Guru, friend or God and can feel blessed on that. You also see unconditional love in Amma and that is what God is. So you are also seeing God in Amma. No doubt people worship Amma as they see Devi in Amma. Again remember Kabir telling Guru is bigger than God. Also confusion is the gateway for knowledge. Just find how you feel and what you learn from that. Your internal experience only counts for you and you are your best friend. Cheers, Mahadevan Venkitaraman --- Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki <nkulki%40hotmail.com> > wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been taking Amma's darshan on and off for > the last 15 years now! In > the beginning I only went because my mom dragged me > to the Ashram. But over > the last few years I have started taking my own > spiritual practices very > seriously. I have now reached a stage where I am > convinced that I need a > guru. And it is for this reason that I am writing in > this forum. > > I have no doubt that Amma is a great soul. I > cannot even begin to > understand Amma's greatness. But having said this, > there are a few things > that bother me and I would like to have > clarification from the senior > devotees on this forum. > > I have no issues in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru. > But where I have an > issue is with worshipping Amma as a bhagavan. It's > pretty clear when one > goes to any of the center's that the whole > organization is based on Amma as > the center. I kinda feel that even if Amma is a > avatara still the whole > organization should be based on Krishna or Devi as > the center. I find it > very disturbing when I see people worshipping her, > singing bhagan's about > amma, doing the pada puja etc as if she were Devi > incarnate. > > But having said all this, I can also see the miracle > and the unconditional > love that is Amma. I cannot even fathom what Amma > must be like to hug > millions of people, and listen to their problems and > help people for no > personal reason. Its quite mind boggling. So in the > end I get really > confused. > > > > Can someone try to explain to me who is Amma? > > > > Thank you > > -Narendra > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ________ Get the toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. http://new.toolbar./toolbar/features/mail/index.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 18, 2007 Why would this be a bad thing? I'm more disturbed by traditions saying that Krishna's widows jumped into his funeral pyre. Max >asked Amma about Krishna marrying 16,108 wives. In response to this question >Amma said that Krishna never married a single girl. Apparently Krishna was a >Brahmachari. (snip) > >Upon hearing this I find it extremely disturbing. I would like to hear the >opinion of other senior members on this forum. -- Max Dashu Suppressed Histories Archives http://www.suppressedhistories.net Real Women, Global Vision Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 18, 2007 Namah Shivaya, Narendra, I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can tell you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, and cleanliness. I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a guru, that knowledge has been lost to us. Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that change what is? Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God within everyone and She bows down to that. When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them away and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they could not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing - to embrace, to help the suffering. She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow they might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I can't give that belief to anyone else. On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the nature of a Satguru or avatar. I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may come up with. Jai Ma, Pranada On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that ultimately > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who Amma > is, I still won't understand. [text snipped by moderator] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 19, 2007 Om Namah Sivaya i can completely understand your confusion. This is where my mother doesn't quite understand me and why i worship this women, as she says. What i have realised in my own experience is that, Yes Amma is a powerful being, a sat-guru, a mahatma, beyond the normal average joe! But what gets me confused still, is getting attached to Her physical form and thinking that She is human. Amma is beyond the body, beyond the thinking/doubting mind, beyond senses, beyond beyond beyond.....keep going deeper into yourself and you will find who She is, but i insist going deeper each time......when i am able to see Her as God, or Krishna, or Devi, or Shiva, or the formless self manifest in Her body, then i can understand a little more of who She really is. She is not contained in that body....there is so much more going on behind the masks She has, behind the actions She does, behind the words She speaks, She is still a beautiful mystery to me. But i know that when i get stuck in Her physical form, that i no longer see who She really is. She, out of Her motherly compassion took a body in order to console Her children with Her every breath. She is the formless Self manifest in a form, so that we, Her children can have something tangible to look upon. She gives us great hope! Many of the great Avatars did this same thing. Jesus came to live as a human with pain and laughter and difficulties, out of compassion. he gave us His physical form so that we could relate to Him.....so that we could see the Truth which is right under our noses.....because of their physical form and example...it shows us that God is also within us... we live in a dualistic world and we are stuck in forms, objects, names and things......so God gives us these great beings in order that we can see God in them...and know that God exists in everything....but Amma, Jesus, Rama Krishna, Mahatma Ghandi are the blessed leaders that have lived in our time so that we could attain Truth..... It is a beautiful place to be to reach the point where you realize you can't do it all on your own anymore....a place of surrender....right where She wants us! Also if you notice, when Amma is singing bhajans, She may sing to Amma, The Mother.....but She isn't singing to herself.....She sings to the Amma beyond the physical realm....she is reaching out as she sings...Her devotion is there as an example to us...to sing and cry out to God with that much intensity.....God is in everything.. Aum Amriteswaryai Namah namrata ><mahadevanv >Ammachi >Ammachi >Re: A sincere question >Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:16:41 -0700 (PDT) > >Om Namah Shivaya! > > You asked a question and your question indicates >your keenness to know more about Amma and your self. > > The answer to your question who is Amma is " Who >you feel Amma is for you " . Your internal experience is >more important for you than what someone else tells >about Amma. > > Same is the case of everyone. Each individual is >free to feel who Amma is. He or she can feel Amma is >father, mother, Guru, friend or God and can feel >blessed on that. You also see unconditional love in >Amma and that is what God is. So you are also seeing >God in Amma. No doubt people worship Amma as they see >Devi in Amma. Again remember Kabir telling Guru is >bigger than God. > > Also confusion is the gateway for knowledge. Just >find how you feel and what you learn from that. Your >internal experience only counts for you and you are >your best friend. > >Cheers, > > Mahadevan Venkitaraman > >--- Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > I have been taking Amma's darshan on and off for > > the last 15 years now! In > > the beginning I only went because my mom dragged me > > to the Ashram. But over > > the last few years I have started taking my own > > spiritual practices very > > seriously. I have now reached a stage where I am > > convinced that I need a > > guru. And it is for this reason that I am writing in > > this forum. > > > > I have no doubt that Amma is a great soul. I > > cannot even begin to > > understand Amma's greatness. But having said this, > > there are a few things > > that bother me and I would like to have > > clarification from the senior > > devotees on this forum. > > > > I have no issues in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru. > > But where I have an > > issue is with worshipping Amma as a bhagavan. It's > > pretty clear when one > > goes to any of the center's that the whole > > organization is based on Amma as > > the center. I kinda feel that even if Amma is a > > avatara still the whole > > organization should be based on Krishna or Devi as > > the center. I find it > > very disturbing when I see people worshipping her, > > singing bhagan's about > > amma, doing the pada puja etc as if she were Devi > > incarnate. > > > > But having said all this, I can also see the miracle > > and the unconditional > > love that is Amma. I cannot even fathom what Amma > > must be like to hug > > millions of people, and listen to their problems and > > help people for no > > personal reason. Its quite mind boggling. So in the > > end I get really > > confused. > > > > > > > > Can someone try to explain to me who is Amma? > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > -Narendra > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > >_____________________________\ _____ >Get the toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. >http://new.toolbar./toolbar/features/mail/index.php _______________ http://liveearth.msn.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 19, 2007 Here are Amma's words... " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, manifests visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse of the Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power to express the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists is to help you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The Inner Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent and attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of this Inner Mother. " > " Pranada S. " <daughterpranada >Ammachi >Ammachi >Re: A sincere question >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can tell >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, and >cleanliness. > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a guru, >that knowledge has been lost to us. > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that >change what is? > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God >within everyone and She bows down to that. > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them away >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they could >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing - >to embrace, to help the suffering. > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow they >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I >can't give that belief to anyone else. > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may >come up with. > >Jai Ma, >Pranada > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that >ultimately > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who >Amma > > is, I still won't understand. > >[text snipped by moderator] _______________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 19, 2007 Amma has also said that we are all That (hmm, a new spin on the slang). The difference is that we haven't realized That. Max -- Max Dashu Art in Goddess Reverence http://www.maxdashu.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 19, 2007 Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I have made an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What bothers me greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time talking to pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust me, I wasn't rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole philosophy of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not trying to down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person without knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I wasn't able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and clear my doubts. I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just because 100 other people are following some idea. Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of Mary Beth Hayman Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM Ammachi Re: A sincere question Here are Amma's words... " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, manifests visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse of the Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power to express the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists is to help you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The Inner Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent and attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of this Inner Mother. " > " Pranada S. " <daughterpranada >Ammachi >Ammachi >Re: A sincere question >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can tell >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, and >cleanliness. > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a guru, >that knowledge has been lost to us. > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that >change what is? > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God >within everyone and She bows down to that. > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them away >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they could >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing - >to embrace, to help the suffering. > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow they >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I >can't give that belief to anyone else. > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may >come up with. > >Jai Ma, >Pranada > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that >ultimately > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who >Amma > > is, I still won't understand. > >[text snipped by moderator] _______________ Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 19, 2007 Namah Shivaya Dear Narenda, Be aware that your story of observing the swamis-this is simply your own perception. What it may be is entirely different. We are limited by our own views, experiences and perceptions. Regarding gurus, I don't believe Christ had a guru and Amma not having one is not odd. However Amma often says that her mother was her guru-having caused her to disassociate with her body due to her harsh treatment while young! And her longing for union with the Divine was incessant. No one can convince you what is the right path or belief for you. Amma never asks anyone to worship Her. At the same time, you can draw your own conclusions. As someone else said, she brings something different for each person. Regarding a " cult " -a cult forces people to join with blindness. Those of us who follow Amma are more than willing participants. If she can " hypnotize " (for lack of better analogy) millions, she is amazing indeed, is She not?! LOL...One Swami said she could be the devil and he would still follow her! LOL..Her love is so magnetic for so many of us-it is irresistable! The mind is always an unwilling accomplice to gain understanding. I was listening to science talk on the radio and the mind is so limited. What we " know " may be one thing and what we experience is often not even able to be understood by the mind. The consciousness of the person affects what their understanding may be. Another thought, one swami also said that just when he thinks he has Amma all figured out..she suddenly changes again and he is just as mystified as ever. So anyway, I would not worry about wrestling so much with your mind and being " convinced " by anyone. It is what it is and allow yourself the freedom to go whatever direction resonates for your heart. After all, God is Love. in Amma, adriane Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I have made > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What bothers me > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time talking to > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust me, I wasn't > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole philosophy > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not trying to > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person without > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I wasn't > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and clear my > doubts. > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that what > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just because > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Namah Sivaya! Narendra, i think it is great that you are seeking and searching. I too can relate to this place. Your seeking will bring you to knowledge...your determination to understand the Truth is beautiful. It is ok to have doubts...we all can relate to that. Give yourself some time and patience...and accept yourself for exactly where you are right now.....your frusteration and skepticism is exactly where you need to be to bring you deeper into yourself and understanding what this is all about. Some of the answers you seek may come from within....out of the silence of your own heart....listen to that place.... You expressing yourself and the vulnerability of where you are at is teaching me a lot. You are a reflection of all of us and we are also a reflection of you. You are a form of God and are teaching us all something within ourselves. just by being exactly where you are at. there is a lesson in everything. God uses Her children to teach each other things within ourselves. I just wanted to let you know Narendra, that you are teaching me something within myself and I thank you for helping me go deeper into myself. I see how God is using you right now. Thank you beloved sister. love and light namrata > " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki >Ammachi ><Ammachi > >RE: A sincere question >Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:19:29 -0700 > >Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I have made >an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What bothers me >greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time talking to >pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust me, I >wasn't >rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole philosophy >of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not trying to >down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person without >knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I wasn't >able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and clear my >doubts. > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that >what >I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just because >100 other people are following some idea. > > > >Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of >Mary Beth Hayman >Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM >Ammachi >Re: A sincere question > >Here are Amma's words... > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, manifests >visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse of the >Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power to >express > >the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists is to help >you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The Inner >Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent and >attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of this Inner >Mother. " > > > > > " Pranada S. " <daughterpranada > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > >Re: A sincere question > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can tell > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, and > >cleanliness. > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a guru, > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > >change what is? > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them away > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they could > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing - > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow they > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may > >come up with. > > > >Jai Ma, > >Pranada > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that > >ultimately > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who > >Amma > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > >_______________ >Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! >http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Thank you for posting, especially this part: Also if you notice, when Amma is singing bhajans, She may sing to Amma, The Mother.....but She isn't singing to herself.....She sings to the Amma beyond the physical realm....she is reaching out as she sings...Her devotion is there as an example to us...to sing and cry out to God with that much intensity.....God is in everything.. I feel that all too often this is not noticed at all - Amma's own sense of devotion to " Amma " the Divine Mother and to Krishna. That sense of her as a devotee conveys a completely different reality if you can understand what she is doing and what is manifesting around her in her devotion, because her devotion is real. Far from any claims of identity with Krishna or the Divine Mother, this is the most interesting thing to notice, and there is hidden here a key from which to learn. When bhakti is real, it results in direct awareness of the Lord, or of " Amma. " If bhakti is mechanical and consists only of going through the motions, without the real and true sense of surrender, and without the awareness of God's Consciousness, without turning toward the Guru or to God, then the potential remains for the entire gesture to become only mechanical and empty. Nevertheless, all these ritual means of remembrance are only means for turning one's awareness toward God and the abandonment of self-effort, motivated by some thought of separate existence from the Lord. They are all means of returning one's own awareness to Consciousness of God's own existence. If one knows Krishna, then one knows that Krishna is the Source and substratum of all that exists, knows that Krishna is the Lord - Bhagavan - is Chaitanya, is Consciousness Itself. Knowing Krishna, one knows that God is already Conscious. In this sense, Amma is Krishna, but only as His devotee, because she is Conscious of Him. P. Ammachi , " Mary Beth Hayman " <amritabindu wrote: > > Om Namah Sivaya > > i can completely understand your confusion. This is where my mother doesn't > quite understand me and why i worship this women, as she says. What i have > realised in my own experience is that, Yes Amma is a powerful being, a > sat-guru, a mahatma, beyond the normal average joe! But what gets me > confused still, is getting attached to Her physical form and thinking that > She is human. Amma is beyond the body, beyond the thinking/doubting mind, > beyond senses, beyond beyond beyond.....keep going deeper into yourself and > you will find who She is, but i insist going deeper each time......when i am > able to see Her as God, or Krishna, or Devi, or Shiva, or the formless self > manifest in Her body, then i can understand a little more of who She really > is. She is not contained in that body....there is so much more going on > behind the masks She has, behind the actions She does, behind the words She > speaks, She is still a beautiful mystery to me. But i know that when i get > stuck in Her physical form, that i no longer see who She really is. She, out > of Her motherly compassion took a body in order to console Her children with > Her every breath. She is the formless Self manifest in a form, so that we, > Her children can have something tangible to look upon. She gives us great > hope! Many of the great Avatars did this same thing. Jesus came to live as a > human with pain and laughter and difficulties, out of compassion. he gave us > His physical form so that we could relate to Him.....so that we could see > the Truth which is right under our noses.....because of their physical form > and example...it shows us that God is also within us... > > we live in a dualistic world and we are stuck in forms, objects, names and > things......so God gives us these great beings in order that we can see God > in them...and know that God exists in everything....but Amma, Jesus, Rama > Krishna, Mahatma Ghandi are the blessed leaders that have lived in our time > so that we could attain Truth..... > > It is a beautiful place to be to reach the point where you realize you can't > do it all on your own anymore....a place of surrender....right where She > wants us! > > Also if you notice, when Amma is singing bhajans, She may sing to Amma, The > Mother.....but She isn't singing to herself.....She sings to the Amma beyond > the physical realm....she is reaching out as she sings...Her devotion is > there as an example to us...to sing and cry out to God with that much > intensity.....God is in everything.. > > Aum Amriteswaryai Namah > namrata > > > >mahadevanv > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > >Re: A sincere question > >Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:16:41 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Om Namah Shivaya! > > > > You asked a question and your question indicates > >your keenness to know more about Amma and your self. > > > > The answer to your question who is Amma is " Who > >you feel Amma is for you " . Your internal experience is > >more important for you than what someone else tells > >about Amma. > > > > Same is the case of everyone. Each individual is > >free to feel who Amma is. He or she can feel Amma is > >father, mother, Guru, friend or God and can feel > >blessed on that. You also see unconditional love in > >Amma and that is what God is. So you are also seeing > >God in Amma. No doubt people worship Amma as they see > >Devi in Amma. Again remember Kabir telling Guru is > >bigger than God. > > > > Also confusion is the gateway for knowledge. Just > >find how you feel and what you learn from that. Your > >internal experience only counts for you and you are > >your best friend. > > > >Cheers, > > > > Mahadevan Venkitaraman > > > >--- Narendra Kulkarni nkulki wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I have been taking Amma's darshan on and off for > > > the last 15 years now! In > > > the beginning I only went because my mom dragged me > > > to the Ashram. But over > > > the last few years I have started taking my own > > > spiritual practices very > > > seriously. I have now reached a stage where I am > > > convinced that I need a > > > guru. And it is for this reason that I am writing in > > > this forum. > > > > > > I have no doubt that Amma is a great soul. I > > > cannot even begin to > > > understand Amma's greatness. But having said this, > > > there are a few things > > > that bother me and I would like to have > > > clarification from the senior > > > devotees on this forum. > > > > > > I have no issues in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru. > > > But where I have an > > > issue is with worshipping Amma as a bhagavan. It's > > > pretty clear when one > > > goes to any of the center's that the whole > > > organization is based on Amma as > > > the center. I kinda feel that even if Amma is a > > > avatara still the whole > > > organization should be based on Krishna or Devi as > > > the center. I find it > > > very disturbing when I see people worshipping her, > > > singing bhagan's about > > > amma, doing the pada puja etc as if she were Devi > > > incarnate. > > > > > > But having said all this, I can also see the miracle > > > and the unconditional > > > love that is Amma. I cannot even fathom what Amma > > > must be like to hug > > > millions of people, and listen to their problems and > > > help people for no > > > personal reason. Its quite mind boggling. So in the > > > end I get really > > > confused. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone try to explain to me who is Amma? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > -Narendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________\ _____________ > >Get the toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. > >http://new.toolbar./toolbar/features/mail/index.php > > _______________ > http://liveearth.msn.com > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 20, 2007 No. No difference. Ammachi , Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote: > > Amma has also said that we are all That (hmm, a new spin on the slang). > > The difference is that we haven't realized That. > > Max > -- > Max Dashu > > Art in Goddess Reverence > http://www.maxdashu.net > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 20, 2007 Dear Narendra, You have solved your own problem. I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just because 100 other people are following some idea. You don't require anyone else to clear your doubts. " Pretty women " can distract even the most devoted when they see how many of them there are " out there " !!! P. Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I have made > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What bothers me > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time talking to > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust me, I wasn't > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole philosophy > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not trying to > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person without > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I wasn't > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and clear my > doubts. > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that what > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just because > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of > Mary Beth Hayman > Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM > Ammachi > Re: A sincere question > > Here are Amma's words... > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, manifests > visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse of the > Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power to express > > the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists is to help > you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The Inner > Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent and > attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of this Inner > Mother. " > > > > > " Pranada S. " daughterpranada > >Ammachi > >Ammachi > >Re: A sincere question > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can tell > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, and > >cleanliness. > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a guru, > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > >change what is? > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them away > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they could > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing - > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow they > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may > >come up with. > > > >Jai Ma, > >Pranada > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni nkulki wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that > >ultimately > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who > >Amma > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > > _______________ > Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, >>> they may not understand. Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. However it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. One measure of how spiritually advanced a person is to see the humility within the person. If the swami is too busy to talk that's perfectly understandable, however when they are rude that's not cool. I expect much higher standard's from swami's as compared to us regular folks. In any case I am not here to talk trash about anyone. In such a case it's only my loss. What started all this off was when Amma said that Bhagavatham and Mahabharat are just stories. This is something she said in a public forum - Boston retreat. I tried my best to get to the bottom of this statement and therefore asked other swami's. No swami was able to explain to me why Bhagavtham and Mahabharat are considered " just stories " . Instead of trying to clear my confusion they seemed to be pissed off with me and completely avoided the question. I am even willing to entertain the possibility that these books are " just stories " . However whoever says this must back this up. I further enquired what books are considered genuine. Apparently only upanishad's, Gita and Brahma Sutra are proper books. Apparently even the Vedas are bogus. From whatever little Bhagavatham I have read, I have grown really fond of it. Its pretty obvious to me that this is no " story " . Just reading this book has changed my life. So when a great leader such as Amma said that Bhgavatham is just a story, I had to get to the bottom of this. There are only two possibilities. Amma is right in which case Bhagavatham is a story or Amma is wrong in which case, I have no idea what the implications are if Amma is wrong. Since then I talked to other Amma's devotees in Seattle. To my great shock I found that my merely questioning Amma's words automatically made me a " sinner " . This kind of blind belief is completely anti-hindu. In Bhgavad Gita and Bhgavatham Krishna has on many occasions clearly stated that a person must use his intelligence to the best of his abilities. At no point is it ever mentioned that a devotee should close his eyes and blindly follow his guru. This statement by Amma has lead me to question why is it that her devotee's consider her a devi. What is the spiritual backing of this movement? Why is the whole organization centered one human being instead of Krishna. Why is Amma worshipped as a devi instead of as a sad-guru. As someone has rightly pointed out, the position of a sad-guru is even higher than that of Devi. Therefore there is no insult in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru instead of as devi. Since I could not directly question Amma, I thought of looking at the next best thing, her direct disciples. I can understand Malayalam very well. So I was listening to their conversations. 100% of their conversation was extremely materialistic. When I tried to talk to them, no one tried to clear my questions. I spoke with some of the other devotees there. I heard some rather scary stories on how Amma said one thing during one meeting and the exact opposite thing in the next meeting. At the same time I hear miracle stories, how Amma cured some disease, how Amma helped them. I can also see how Amma is helping millions of poor people. So this only caused more confusion and therefore my emails on this forum. -Narendra Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of ckeniley2003 Friday, July 20, 2007 3:23 PM Ammachi Re: A sincere question...,,some perspective To be more accurate, most people will not follow Amma, most people will not feel drawn to going to Amma. Then, of those who come, nbot all will get it, or spend enough time around Amma being quiet enough to get it. If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, they may not understand. Personally, I have not noticed that the swamis spend time with " pretty women " . that does not seem accurate to me. They do spend a lot of time with Indian families though, and that is part of their role. Peace, Chris Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , " parzival35 " <parzival2 wrote: > > Dear Narendra, > > You have solved your own problem. > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced that > what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just > because 100 other people are following some idea. > > You don't require anyone else to clear your doubts. " Pretty women " can > distract even the most devoted when they see how many of them there are > " out there " !!! > > P. > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I have > made > > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What bothers > me > > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time talking > to > > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust me, I > wasn't > > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole > philosophy > > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not > trying to > > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person without > > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I > wasn't > > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and clear > my > > doubts. > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > that what > > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something just > because > > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> [Ammachi <Ammachi%40> ] On > Behalf Of > > Mary Beth Hayman > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > Re: A sincere question > > > > Here are Amma's words... > > > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, > manifests > > visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse of > the > > Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power to > express > > > > the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists is to > help > > you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The > Inner > > Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent and > > attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of this > Inner > > Mother. " > > > > > > > > > " Pranada S. " daughterpranada@ > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > >Re: A sincere question > > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of this > > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can > tell > > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She has > > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a sense, > > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, charity, > and > > >cleanliness. > > > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a > guru, > > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > > >change what is? > > > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping Her. She > > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She sees God > > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them > away > > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they > could > > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to stay. > > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her swamis > > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is doing > - > > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow > they > > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation within. I > > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what anyone > > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. But I > > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what Amma > > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false conclusion > > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think that > > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any stretch; > > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find that > > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I may > > >come up with. > > > > > >Jai Ma, > > >Pranada > > > > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni nkulki@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that > > >ultimately > > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me > who > > >Amma > > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > > > > ________ > > Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 Dear Narendra, I am reading some of the posts on this question. I have just returned to CA from the Boston Retreat. I do not have knowledge of the books you speak of so I cannot comment on the content of the teachings which have touched your heart. There are many paths to God. We are each walking our own unique path. You may need to rely more on your inner conviction rather then to search for the answers outside of yourself. It may be helpful to read a book that is a diary based on a woman's direct experience with a sad guru from the Sufi section of Raja Yoga. Daughter of Fire by Irina Tweedie is a stunning portrait of this very intimate and complex relationship. You may have a different Guru, who you may have yet to meet. It is well known that the Guru will say and do anything to help the disciple to loosen the grip of Maya. If this statement has pushed your buttons.... Then it seems like a wonderful opportunity do go within and to ask the Self directly, why this has happened and to help you to understand what it is that you are supposed to learn from it. Love and Peace, S --- Narendra Kulkarni <nkulki wrote: > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > >>> they may not understand. > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? Go with an open mind and heart and see what Amma does. Forget all you learned in your past before you do this, I dare say, even your Bhagavatam (a book even I am very fond of). THEN, decide for yourself who Amma is. > Since then I talked to other Amma's devotees in Seattle. To my > great shock I found that my merely questioning Amma's words > automatically made me a " sinner " . This kind of blind belief is > completely anti-hindu. Perhaps this is your projection of their attitudes. They love Amma, and probably can't understand why you question so much. And they may not have answers for your intricate question and may not desire to have this answer as keenly as you obviously do. think about it, this is an akward situation; most people try to get out of such situations. why judge them as " judging " you as a sinner for this? Did anyone passionately say " Narendra, you are a SINNER for eVen thinking so? " . probably not. if you have indeed leaped to a conclusion, think calmly about what happened and re-evaluate. consider your own motivations during that interaction (and I mean this respectfully). Amma IS Krishna. She realized at 16 (or earlier) with intense and all- pervading visions of Krishna. She manifested Krishna Bhava till 1985. I guess She knows what She is saying. But I don't know if Amma said what you reported (Krishna is a brahmachari and Bhagavatam is a story etc), atleast I did not see that reported as such in the websites or anywhere. If She did say so, it sounds pretty original and interesting, if not controversial. But there are lots of orgs who have similar beliefs. SRCM (www.srcm.org) belief Krishna was at best married to only 1 and not 16,000+ wives. It also says Yogiraj Shankar (Shiva) is never married; and the story of Parvati married to Shiva is a hoax. That Parvati is, at best, a demi-goddess. I read this in their books, I don't have a link to prove this here. So beliefs can be of any shape or form; ultimately you just need to follow your guru. Why try to fit the Infinite > In Bhgavad Gita and Bhgavatham Krishna has > on many occasions clearly stated that a person must use his > intelligence to the best of his abilities. Absolutely, BUT ..... > At no point is it ever mentioned that a devotee should close his > eyes and blindly follow his guru. " Abandoning all DHARMAS (of body, mind, and intellect), take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not. " - Srimad Bhagavad Geeta (18:66) There is no greater DHARMA than surrendering to your Guru (who is verily Krishna himself, never mind what ISCKON may think about this). Jai Ma! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 During a talk in Dearborn, Michigan, Swamiji said, " Amma is always in guru-bhav. " Amma stopped and corrected him and then he said, " Mother says she is in matri-bhav. She said that if she were always in guru-bhav there would be nobody left in the ashram. " [Laughter] How many really get it? Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > >>> they may not understand. > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. However > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. One measure of how > spiritually advanced a person is to see the humility within the person. If > the swami is too busy to talk that's perfectly understandable, however when > they are rude that's not cool. I expect much higher standard's from swami's > as compared to us regular folks. > > > > In any case I am not here to talk trash about anyone. In such a case it's > only my loss. What started all this off was when Amma said that Bhagavatham > and Mahabharat are just stories. This is something she said in a public > forum - Boston retreat. I tried my best to get to the bottom of this > statement and therefore asked other swami's. No swami was able to explain to > me why Bhagavtham and Mahabharat are considered " just stories " . Instead of > trying to clear my confusion they seemed to be pissed off with me and > completely avoided the question. I am even willing to entertain the > possibility that these books are " just stories " . However whoever says this > must back this up. I further enquired what books are considered genuine. > Apparently only upanishad's, Gita and Brahma Sutra are proper books. > Apparently even the Vedas are bogus. > > > > From whatever little Bhagavatham I have read, I have grown really fond of > it. Its pretty obvious to me that this is no " story " . Just reading this book > has changed my life. So when a great leader such as Amma said that > Bhgavatham is just a story, I had to get to the bottom of this. There are > only two possibilities. Amma is right in which case Bhagavatham is a story > or Amma is wrong in which case, I have no idea what the implications are if > Amma is wrong. > > > > Since then I talked to other Amma's devotees in Seattle. To my great shock I > found that my merely questioning Amma's words automatically made me a > " sinner " . This kind of blind belief is completely anti-hindu. In Bhgavad > Gita and Bhgavatham Krishna has on many occasions clearly stated that a > person must use his intelligence to the best of his abilities. At no point > is it ever mentioned that a devotee should close his eyes and blindly follow > his guru. > > > > This statement by Amma has lead me to question why is it that her devotee's > consider her a devi. What is the spiritual backing of this movement? Why is > the whole organization centered one human being instead of Krishna. Why is > Amma worshipped as a devi instead of as a sad-guru. As someone has rightly > pointed out, the position of a sad-guru is even higher than that of Devi. > Therefore there is no insult in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru instead of as > devi. Since I could not directly question Amma, I thought of looking at the > next best thing, her direct disciples. I can understand Malayalam very well. > So I was listening to their conversations. 100% of their conversation was > extremely materialistic. When I tried to talk to them, no one tried to clear > my questions. I spoke with some of the other devotees there. I heard some > rather scary stories on how Amma said one thing during one meeting and the > exact opposite thing in the next meeting. At the same time I hear miracle > stories, how Amma cured some disease, how Amma helped them. I can also see > how Amma is helping millions of poor people. So this only caused more > confusion and therefore my emails on this forum. > > > > -Narendra > Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of > ckeniley2003 > Friday, July 20, 2007 3:23 PM > Ammachi > Re: A sincere question...,,some perspective > > > > To be more accurate, most people will not follow Amma, most people > will not feel drawn to going to Amma. Then, of those who come, nbot > all will get it, or spend enough time around Amma being quiet enough > to get it. If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > they may not understand. > > Personally, I have not noticed that the swamis spend time > with " pretty women " . that does not seem accurate to me. They do spend > a lot of time with Indian families though, and that is part of their > role. > > Peace, > Chris > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , > " parzival35 " <parzival2@> wrote: > > > > Dear Narendra, > > > > You have solved your own problem. > > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > that > > what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > You don't require anyone else to clear your doubts. " Pretty > women " can > > distract even the most devoted when they see how many of them there > are > > " out there " !!! > > > > P. > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , > " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I > have > > made > > > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What > bothers > > me > > > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time > talking > > to > > > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust > me, I > > wasn't > > > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole > > philosophy > > > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not > > trying to > > > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person > without > > > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I > > wasn't > > > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and > clear > > my > > > doubts. > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > > that what > > > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because > > > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > [Ammachi <Ammachi%40> ] On > > Behalf Of > > > Mary Beth Hayman > > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > Re: A sincere question > > > > > > Here are Amma's words... > > > > > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, > > manifests > > > visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse > of > > the > > > Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power > to > > express > > > > > > the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists > is to > > help > > > you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The > > Inner > > > Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent > and > > > attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of > this > > Inner > > > Mother. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Pranada S. " daughterpranada@ > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > >Re: A sincere question > > > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > > > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > > > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of > this > > > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can > > tell > > > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She > has > > > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a > sense, > > > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, > charity, > > and > > > >cleanliness. > > > > > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a > > guru, > > > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > > > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > > > >change what is? > > > > > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping > Her. She > > > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She > sees God > > > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > > > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them > > away > > > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they > > could > > > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to > stay. > > > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > > > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her > swamis > > > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is > doing > > - > > > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > > > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow > > they > > > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > > > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > > > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation > within. I > > > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what > anyone > > > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. > But I > > > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > > > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what > Amma > > > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false > conclusion > > > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think > that > > > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any > stretch; > > > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > > > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > > > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find > that > > > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > > > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I > may > > > >come up with. > > > > > > > >Jai Ma, > > > >Pranada > > > > > > > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni nkulki@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point > that > > > >ultimately > > > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells > me > > who > > > >Amma > > > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > > > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > > > > > > ________ > > > Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! > > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 Im no intellectual, but anyway heres what I think can be interpreted from what amma said. She perhaps meant that in the grand scheme of things, where the world in considered Maya, every story that happens on earth is also Maya - hence Mahabharata is also maya i.e. just a story, however the unshakable truth or essential principles contained in Gita is beyond Maya, hence real. Regarding your skepticism of Amma, most of us begin that way, with many questions in our mind. Spirituality is an experience that cannot be explained. It has more to do with the heart than the mind. Each of us have a long story of how we came to love amma. Only when the time is right will the guru accept the sishya. Thats my experience. Mata Rani ki Jai! Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > >>> they may not understand. > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. However > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. One measure of how > spiritually advanced a person is to see the humility within the person. If > the swami is too busy to talk that's perfectly understandable, however when > they are rude that's not cool. I expect much higher standard's from swami's > as compared to us regular folks. > > > > In any case I am not here to talk trash about anyone. In such a case it's > only my loss. What started all this off was when Amma said that Bhagavatham > and Mahabharat are just stories. This is something she said in a public > forum - Boston retreat. I tried my best to get to the bottom of this > statement and therefore asked other swami's. No swami was able to explain to > me why Bhagavtham and Mahabharat are considered " just stories " . Instead of > trying to clear my confusion they seemed to be pissed off with me and > completely avoided the question. I am even willing to entertain the > possibility that these books are " just stories " . However whoever says this > must back this up. I further enquired what books are considered genuine. > Apparently only upanishad's, Gita and Brahma Sutra are proper books. > Apparently even the Vedas are bogus. > > > > From whatever little Bhagavatham I have read, I have grown really fond of > it. Its pretty obvious to me that this is no " story " . Just reading this book > has changed my life. So when a great leader such as Amma said that > Bhgavatham is just a story, I had to get to the bottom of this. There are > only two possibilities. Amma is right in which case Bhagavatham is a story > or Amma is wrong in which case, I have no idea what the implications are if > Amma is wrong. > > > > Since then I talked to other Amma's devotees in Seattle. To my great shock I > found that my merely questioning Amma's words automatically made me a > " sinner " . This kind of blind belief is completely anti-hindu. In Bhgavad > Gita and Bhgavatham Krishna has on many occasions clearly stated that a > person must use his intelligence to the best of his abilities. At no point > is it ever mentioned that a devotee should close his eyes and blindly follow > his guru. > > > > This statement by Amma has lead me to question why is it that her devotee's > consider her a devi. What is the spiritual backing of this movement? Why is > the whole organization centered one human being instead of Krishna. Why is > Amma worshipped as a devi instead of as a sad-guru. As someone has rightly > pointed out, the position of a sad-guru is even higher than that of Devi. > Therefore there is no insult in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru instead of as > devi. Since I could not directly question Amma, I thought of looking at the > next best thing, her direct disciples. I can understand Malayalam very well. > So I was listening to their conversations. 100% of their conversation was > extremely materialistic. When I tried to talk to them, no one tried to clear > my questions. I spoke with some of the other devotees there. I heard some > rather scary stories on how Amma said one thing during one meeting and the > exact opposite thing in the next meeting. At the same time I hear miracle > stories, how Amma cured some disease, how Amma helped them. I can also see > how Amma is helping millions of poor people. So this only caused more > confusion and therefore my emails on this forum. > > > > -Narendra > Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of > ckeniley2003 > Friday, July 20, 2007 3:23 PM > Ammachi > Re: A sincere question...,,some perspective > > > > To be more accurate, most people will not follow Amma, most people > will not feel drawn to going to Amma. Then, of those who come, nbot > all will get it, or spend enough time around Amma being quiet enough > to get it. If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > they may not understand. > > Personally, I have not noticed that the swamis spend time > with " pretty women " . that does not seem accurate to me. They do spend > a lot of time with Indian families though, and that is part of their > role. > > Peace, > Chris > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , > " parzival35 " <parzival2@> wrote: > > > > Dear Narendra, > > > > You have solved your own problem. > > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > that > > what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > You don't require anyone else to clear your doubts. " Pretty > women " can > > distract even the most devoted when they see how many of them there > are > > " out there " !!! > > > > P. > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi% 40> , > " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I > have > > made > > > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What > bothers > > me > > > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time > talking > > to > > > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust > me, I > > wasn't > > > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole > > philosophy > > > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not > > trying to > > > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person > without > > > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I > > wasn't > > > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and > clear > > my > > > doubts. > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > > that what > > > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because > > > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > [Ammachi <Ammachi% 40> ] On > > Behalf Of > > > Mary Beth Hayman > > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > Re: A sincere question > > > > > > Here are Amma's words... > > > > > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, > > manifests > > > visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse > of > > the > > > Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power > to > > express > > > > > > the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists > is to > > help > > > you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The > > Inner > > > Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent > and > > > attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of > this > > Inner > > > Mother. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Pranada S. " daughterpranada@ > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi% 40> > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > >Re: A sincere question > > > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > > > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > > > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of > this > > > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can > > tell > > > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She > has > > > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a > sense, > > > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, > charity, > > and > > > >cleanliness. > > > > > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a > > guru, > > > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > > > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > > > >change what is? > > > > > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping > Her. She > > > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She > sees God > > > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > > > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them > > away > > > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they > > could > > > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to > stay. > > > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > > > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her > swamis > > > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is > doing > > - > > > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > > > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow > > they > > > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > > > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > > > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation > within. I > > > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what > anyone > > > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. > But I > > > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > > > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what > Amma > > > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false > conclusion > > > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think > that > > > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any > stretch; > > > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > > > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > > > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find > that > > > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > > > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I > may > > > >come up with. > > > > > > > >Jai Ma, > > > >Pranada > > > > > > > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni nkulki@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point > that > > > >ultimately > > > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells > me > > who > > > >Amma > > > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > > > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > > > > > > ________ > > > Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! > > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 Dear Narendra, Perhaps this forum is not the best place to get an unbiased answer. It's a little bit like going to the National Rifle Association and explaining that you don't understand why guns should be legal. Asking a swami would be the equivalent of asking Charlton Heston the same. Consider your sources in your quest for unbiased answers. Devotees don't like questions like this, either. That may be helpful to remember as well. When you ask questions like this, it tends to threaten the good feelings that devotees have about Amma. Of course, no one likes it when something meddles with their good feelings. Try the Ex Amma . They are a little more open to conversation about things like this over there. -Violet Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > >>> they may not understand. > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. However > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. [excess regurgitated previous message text snipped by moderator] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 21, 2007 I am not sure which Swami was rude to You and what do You mean by rude , but I think You should look at Amma as Amma not Swamis for that matter. Jesus's disciples and even apostles had many flaws ,there where plenty of conflicts even between them. The Swamis where never rude to me , usually if I had question they told me its best to ask Amma Herself , few times I had the opportunity to do so , few times I did not for there where to many people ( and those few times the answer came indirectly in course of time). Please give Yourself time to see the reason why things happened the way they did , try not to force the question , let it flow easy and sure enough your query will be solved. best of luck joanna > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > >>> they may not understand. > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. However > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. One measure of how > spiritually advanced a person is to see the humility within the person. If > the swami is too busy to talk that's perfectly understandable, however when > they are rude that's not cool. I expect much higher standard's from swami's > as compared to us regular folks. > > > > In any case I am not here to talk trash about anyone. In such a case it's > only my loss. What started all this off was when Amma said that Bhagavatham > and Mahabharat are just stories. This is something she said in a public > forum - Boston retreat. I tried my best to get to the bottom of this > statement and therefore asked other swami's. No swami was able to explain to > me why Bhagavtham and Mahabharat are considered " just stories " . Instead of > trying to clear my confusion they seemed to be pissed off with me and > completely avoided the question. I am even willing to entertain the > possibility that these books are " just stories " . However whoever says this > must back this up. I further enquired what books are considered genuine. > Apparently only upanishad's, Gita and Brahma Sutra are proper books. > Apparently even the Vedas are bogus. > > > > From whatever little Bhagavatham I have read, I have grown really fond of > it. Its pretty obvious to me that this is no " story " . Just reading this book > has changed my life. So when a great leader such as Amma said that > Bhgavatham is just a story, I had to get to the bottom of this. There are > only two possibilities. Amma is right in which case Bhagavatham is a story > or Amma is wrong in which case, I have no idea what the implications are if > Amma is wrong. > > > > Since then I talked to other Amma's devotees in Seattle. To my great shock I > found that my merely questioning Amma's words automatically made me a > " sinner " . This kind of blind belief is completely anti-hindu. In Bhgavad > Gita and Bhgavatham Krishna has on many occasions clearly stated that a > person must use his intelligence to the best of his abilities. At no point > is it ever mentioned that a devotee should close his eyes and blindly follow > his guru. > > > > This statement by Amma has lead me to question why is it that her devotee's > consider her a devi. What is the spiritual backing of this movement? Why is > the whole organization centered one human being instead of Krishna. Why is > Amma worshipped as a devi instead of as a sad-guru. As someone has rightly > pointed out, the position of a sad-guru is even higher than that of Devi. > Therefore there is no insult in worshipping Amma as a sad-guru instead of as > devi. Since I could not directly question Amma, I thought of looking at the > next best thing, her direct disciples. I can understand Malayalam very well. > So I was listening to their conversations. 100% of their conversation was > extremely materialistic. When I tried to talk to them, no one tried to clear > my questions. I spoke with some of the other devotees there. I heard some > rather scary stories on how Amma said one thing during one meeting and the > exact opposite thing in the next meeting. At the same time I hear miracle > stories, how Amma cured some disease, how Amma helped them. I can also see > how Amma is helping millions of poor people. So this only caused more > confusion and therefore my emails on this forum. > > > > -Narendra > Ammachi [Ammachi ] On Behalf Of > ckeniley2003 > Friday, July 20, 2007 3:23 PM > Ammachi > Re: A sincere question...,,some perspective > > > > To be more accurate, most people will not follow Amma, most people > will not feel drawn to going to Amma. Then, of those who come, nbot > all will get it, or spend enough time around Amma being quiet enough > to get it. If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > they may not understand. > > Personally, I have not noticed that the swamis spend time > with " pretty women " . that does not seem accurate to me. They do spend > a lot of time with Indian families though, and that is part of their > role. > > Peace, > Chris > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , > " parzival35 " <parzival2@> wrote: > > > > Dear Narendra, > > > > You have solved your own problem. > > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > that > > what I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > You don't require anyone else to clear your doubts. " Pretty > women " can > > distract even the most devoted when they see how many of them there > are > > " out there " !!! > > > > P. > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> , > " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > > > Well I personally have had no " magical " experiences with Amma. I > have > > made > > > an honest attempt to talk to some of the swami's present. What > bothers > > me > > > greatly is to see the swami's spent inordinate amount of time > talking > > to > > > pretty women while completely ignoring me and my mom. And trust > me, I > > wasn't > > > rude to anyone. I asked some of the swami's about what the whole > > philosophy > > > of the organization is beyond " love " and hugging people. I am not > > trying to > > > down play the importance of love, but having faith in a person > without > > > knowledge is very dangerous. I found it very disconcerting that I > > wasn't > > > able to find anyone who was willing to explain my questions and > clear > > my > > > doubts. > > > I am the kind of person who will follow 100% once I am convinced > > that what > > > I am doing is correct. However I will not believe in something > just > > because > > > 100 other people are following some idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > [Ammachi <Ammachi%40> ] On > > Behalf Of > > > Mary Beth Hayman > > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:40 AM > > > Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > Re: A sincere question > > > > > > Here are Amma's words... > > > > > > " The Inner Mother, whose true nature is infinitude and silence, > > manifests > > > visibly through this body so that her children can have a glimpse > of > > the > > > Mother who is deep within. The body is powerful; it has the power > to > > express > > > > > > the infinite inner power. The reason this external Mother exists > is to > > help > > > you reach the Inner Mother, the Mother of the " Mind of minds. " The > > Inner > > > Mother has none of the external qualities. It is totally silent > and > > > attributeless in the " Mind of minds. " Silence is the language of > this > > Inner > > > Mother. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Pranada S. " daughterpranada@ > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > >Ammachi <Ammachi%40> > > > >Re: A sincere question > > > >Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:50:06 -0400 > > > > > > > >Namah Shivaya, Narendra, > > > > > > > >I am not by any stretch of the imagination a " senior " member of > this > > > >forum, nor could I begin to speak to the Krishna story, but I can > > tell > > > >you that Amma has said that all of creation was Her guru. She > has > > > >also said that Her mother, Damayanti-amma, was Her guru in a > sense, > > > >because she inculcated Her with such attention to detail, > charity, > > and > > > >cleanliness. > > > > > > > >I also believe that Jesus Christ was an avatar. Yet if He had a > > guru, > > > >that knowledge has been lost to us. > > > > > > > >Whether or not a guru is present in the body, or named, does that > > > >change what is? > > > > > > > >Amma has been asked in the past why everyone is worshipping > Her. She > > > >answered that actually She is the one worshipping them. She > sees God > > > >within everyone and She bows down to that. > > > > > > > >When people first started to come to Amma, She tried to shoo them > > away > > > >and drive them off, but because of their deep love for Her, they > > could > > > >not stand to leave, so finally She relented and allowed them to > stay. > > > >I don't think that She is concerned with whether there is a large > > > >organization around Her. She has said that even if all Her > swamis > > > >were to leave the ashram, She would continue to do what She is > doing > > - > > > >to embrace, to help the suffering. > > > > > > > >She has also said that today people might call Her Devi, tomorrow > > they > > > >might call Her a devil. She doesn't care. > > > > > > > >Ultimately, I think that there is no substitute for witnessing, > > > >first-hand, Her physical presence and the transformation > within. I > > > >absolutely do believe that Amma is Devi, not because of what > anyone > > > >has told me, but because of my own feelings and experiences. > But I > > > >can't give that belief to anyone else. > > > > > > > >On the intellectual level, it is simply impossible to grasp what > Amma > > > >is. If we try only intellectually, we will come to false > conclusion > > > >after false conclusion, positive and negative alike. I think > that > > > >intellect and discernment are not to be abandoned, by any > stretch; > > > >only recognized as not the ultimate arbiter when it comes to the > > > >nature of a Satguru or avatar. > > > > > > > >I don't understand Amma at all; the more I try, the more I find > that > > > >She is unknowable. It is actually kind of a relief: She is not, > > > >cannot be, limited to any intellectual conception of Her that I > may > > > >come up with. > > > > > > > >Jai Ma, > > > >Pranada > > > > > > > > > > > >On 7/18/07, Narendra Kulkarni nkulki@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point > that > > > >ultimately > > > > > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells > me > > who > > > >Amma > > > > > is, I still won't understand. > > > > > > > >[text snipped by moderator] > > > > > > ________ > > > Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now! > > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 22, 2007 Narendra, I find your posts to be a bundle of contradictions and assumptions. *Why do you assume that a realized person MUST have a Guru? Who told you that? Just because a book says or a person says does it mean truth? You decide for yourself..but at same time if you donot understand, do not question the basis If one wants to have a sat- guru or one does not it should not concern you at all- it is what you believe in. There are many paths- and that is a fundamental truth in Vedanta..choose what you are comfortable with and relate to. Ultimately it is not knowledge or even faith- it is what you realize within. Vivekananda said even a football player can achieve enlightenment- are you going to say I am going to be football player now or are you going to say Vivekananda is BS and you donot understand why followers follow Vivekananda Go beneath the words/rituals and get a feel for real truth. Why are you concerned if Krishna had 1 or 1M women or someone said Bhagavatham is not upto stuff? Reminds me of story where a house is burning and a person expressing concern for the people insides asks what color clothes the people fleeing from burning house were wearing If Amma's darshan or talks did not provide a deeper connection/spiritual experience for you - then move on since following Amma is not the only option you have. Go with what you feel or perceive or you think is right. If you are open, then you will learn and you will form your own path in this journey- be it with a Guru or God or whatever. That is why it is said 'The Guru is IN you'. You define what that 'Guru' is. Some have defined that Guru as Amma, for you that may be Krishna or Kishore- whatever does not matter. Cheers, Kishore Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 22, 2007 Dear Violet, Wouldn't it be far more honest of you to explain your AGENDA with Amma and her org? Your condescending and smarty pants type comments are not " smart " , they are stereotypical and boring. Most of us have heard it all before ad nauseum. As I asked you before, what is it that you believe in? What group are you a part of? Why not be honest about yourself? You obviously have a lot of " energy " around Amma. What's it all about? Chris Ammachi , " violetdoves " <violetdoves wrote: > > Dear Narendra, > > Perhaps this forum is not the best place to get an unbiased answer. > It's a little bit like going to the National Rifle Association and > explaining that you don't understand why guns should be legal. Asking > a swami would be the equivalent of asking Charlton Heston the same. > Consider your sources in your quest for unbiased answers. > > Devotees don't like questions like this, either. That may be helpful > to remember as well. When you ask questions like this, it tends to > threaten the good feelings that devotees have about Amma. Of course, > no one likes it when something meddles with their good feelings. > > Try the Ex Amma . They are a little more open to > conversation about things like this over there. > > -Violet > > > > > Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > > >>> they may not understand. > > > > > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern me. > However > > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. > > [excess regurgitated previous message text snipped by moderator] > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 22, 2007 Dear Chris, I have already answered this question for you before. Either you are not listening, or you were not happy with my answer. I cannot help you any further in either case. I'm not sure what you mean by " smart " or " smarty pants type comments " . You say this, but then call me condescending. Unfortunately, I cannot help you in that regard either. If you cannot see the irony in your post, I cannot make you see it. I am not a part of any group, am not anyone in particular, and have no " agenda " other than exposing all sides of truth. I do not believe that any one person is more Godly than another. I do not believe in corruption and deceit in the name of God. If you cannot figure out where I am coming from by my posts, then again, I cannot help you. I think where I am coming from is pretty obvious. I am asking questions that no one else is asking, and putting my own observations out into the universe. Same as you are. Same as everyone is. Just because you happen to dislike the issues I am raising or the metaphors I am using, does not mean I will go away...or that my observations are any less worthy of being manifest as yours are. Why am I getting under your skin so much, Chris? Maybe that's the question you should be asking yourself. If all of this does not provide you with the answers you are looking for, simply ignore me. Violet Ammachi , " ckeniley2003 " <ckeniley2003 wrote: > > Dear Violet, > > Wouldn't it be far more honest of you to explain your AGENDA with > Amma and her org? > > Your condescending and smarty pants type comments are not " smart " , > they are stereotypical and boring. Most of us have heard it all > before ad nauseum. > > As I asked you before, what is it that you believe in? What group are > you a part of? Why not be honest about yourself? > > You obviously have a lot of " energy " around Amma. What's it all about? > > > Chris > > > > Ammachi , " violetdoves " <violetdoves@> wrote: > > > > Dear Narendra, > > > > Perhaps this forum is not the best place to get an unbiased answer. > > It's a little bit like going to the National Rifle Association and > > explaining that you don't understand why guns should be legal. > Asking > > a swami would be the equivalent of asking Charlton Heston the same. > > Consider your sources in your quest for unbiased answers. > > > > Devotees don't like questions like this, either. That may be helpful > > to remember as well. When you ask questions like this, it tends to > > threaten the good feelings that devotees have about Amma. Of course, > > no one likes it when something meddles with their good feelings. > > > > Try the Ex Amma . They are a little more open to > > conversation about things like this over there. > > > > -Violet > > > > > > > > > > Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki@> wrote: > > > > > > >>> If someone just goes to one Devi Bhava for a few hours, > > > >>> they may not understand. > > > > > > > > > > > > Point well taken. What is it that you suggest then? > > > > > > > > > > > > About the swami's being rude to me, it doesn't directly concern > me. > > However > > > it does reflect upon the quality of these swami's. > > > > [excess regurgitated previous message text snipped by moderator] > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 22, 2007 Ammachi , " Narendra Kulkarni " <nkulki wrote: > > Well thank you for your response. I do agree with your point that ultimately > only I can figure out who Amma is. Even if someone else tells me who Amma > is, I still won't understand. Yesterday night at the Boston retreat someone > asked Amma about Krishna marrying 16,108 wives. In response to this question > Amma said that Krishna never married a single girl. <snip> Secondly Amma also said that Bhagavatham is not a true book and it's a mere > story. She said that only Bhagvad Gita is true and in that also its > mentioned that Krishna is a brahmachari. Anyone present at the retreat > yesterday night can verify this story. <snip> > Upon hearing this I find it extremely disturbing. I would like to hear the > opinion of other senior members on this forum. > Secondly I asked my mom to find out who is Amma's guru and what are the > guiding principle's of the organization. Apparently my mom found out that > Amma has no guru. I cannot believe this to be true. Even Lord Krishna had a > Guru. My mom also found out that guiding principles are simply the words of > Amma. My mom specifically asked which scripture was followed/recommended. > Again the answer was no scripture is being followed. The guiding principle > is that of universal love. I of course agree that love is the single most > important thing in this universe. > > <snip> > > -Narendra > Narendra, I find your posts to be a bundle of contradictions and assumptions. *Why do you assume that a realized person MUST have a Guru? Who told you that? Just because a book says or a person says does it mean truth? You decide for yourself..but at same time if you donot understand, do not question the basis If one wants to have a sat-guru or one does not it should not concern you at all- it is what you believe in. I question your basis that scriptures is THE final authority and you MUST have a Guru. There are many paths- and that is a fundamental truth ..choose what you are comfortable with and relate to. Ultimately it is not knowledge or even faith- it is what you realize within. Vivekananda said even a football player can achieve enlightenment- are you going to say I am going to be football player now or are you going to say Vivekananda is BS and you donot understand why followers follow Vivekananda Go beneath the words/rituals and get a feel for real truth. Why are you concerned if Krishna had 1 or 1M women or someone said Bhagavatham is not upto stuff? Reminds me of story where a house is burning and a person expressing concern for the people insides asks what color clothes the people fleeing from burning house were wearing If Amma's darshan or talks did not provide a deeper connection/spiritual experience for you - then move on since following Amma is not the only option you have. Amma herself has said- follow your path, find your Guru or what you seek..and she accepts all paths/beliefs but ultimately there is only love. (I asked her about this 3+ yrs ago). Have your own " ishta-Devata " but if someone has Amma as their God- so what? Go with what you feel or perceive or you think is right. If you are open, then you will learn and you will form your own path in this journey- be it with a Guru or God or whatever. That is why it is said 'The Guru is IN you'. You define what that 'Guru' is. Some have defined that Guru as Amma, for you that may be Krishna or Kishore- whatever does not matter. Cheers, Kishore Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
