K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

January 29, 2009

Charles Jayne says in The Technique of Rectification that he is not at all convinced that the astrological time of birth, i.e. the time that works, is also the time of the first breath, the emergence of the head, the cutting of the umbilical cord, or any of the various physiological indica of birth. (The Best Charles Jayne, 1995, p 139) , "adith kasinath.g.k" <gkadithkasinath wrote:>> Dear Dr.Luther Rath,> Noted your points.> Hence the time of first breath has to be noted which may be practically> impossible by the doctors or any assistants as the might be busy focussing> on the precatious measures on the delivery and the mother,baby. hence they> may miss the exact time also. If the subs and the planets are not in the> border, then there is no issue. Even if they note,the time given by them> should match to the Standard time which is most important. Normally, as no> two watches match, always the chances of differences and err in the actual> birth time are vast.> Our Guruji has followed the Prasanna to avoid such confusions.> > Regards> Adith> > > > On 1/28/09, Luther Rath rathluther wrote:> >> > Dear Adith,> > Definitely, you have raised a sensitive point. Supposing the head of the> > baby is out but the chest remains inside, say in case of a case 'Chord round> > the neck' or any other obstrution, the baby cannot inhale as there won't be> > space for expansion of the chest. So even if the head is out for 5 to 10> > minutes and the chest is not out ; the time cannot be taken as birth time.> > The chest should be out, exposed to the external cold atmosphere, and the> > baby should breath in. This time should be the real astrological birth time.> > With Regards.> > Dr. Luther Rath.> >> >> > ------------------------------> > ** adith kasinath.g.k gkadithkasinath > *To:* > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:46:05 PM> > *Subject:* Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived> > at by RP method is correct or not...> >> > Dear Dr.Luther Rath,> >> > Thanks for your participation and valuable points.> > I do understand all your technical points,of course I am also basically a> > Veterinarian, but not into practice.> >> > I was with my wife during her delivery when my baby started crying as you> > rightly said, immediately after it came out and even before cutting the> > Chord.> >> > So it is scientifcally true that once the baby is exposed to the new> > external atmoshpere, it takes its first breath. Even if the chord if not> > cut! Hence can we take the time of birth of the baby when it is exposed to> > the external atmo., ie., when its face is completely out ! since there are> > chances for the baby to cry just with the head alone out and the body still> > inside..sometimes when there is some possibililty if choke inside which may> > lead to difficluty if delivery. In such situation, the baby may inhale the> > amniotic fluid also ?!> >> > Just I asking your valuable comment!> > Hence the first breath is to taken for the Birth of the Baby1> >> > Regards> > Adith> >> >> > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Luther Rath rathluther rathluther > > wrote:> >> >> Dear Adith,> >> Sorry for commining in. I had to say that, All babies do not cry even if> >> they are out of the mother's womb, nor all take breath immidiately after the> >> chord is cut. Some do but some take breath after some medical resussitation> >> only. Before a baby breaths in air from the atmosphere, the lungs remain> >> solid enough. This is an important test to know whether a baby was born> >> alive or still. If the lung floats in water the inference is the baby was> >> live for some time at least. and if it does not float then the conclusion is> >> the baby was never alive. The baby never breaths inside the womb as there is> >> no air in it , there is only amniotic fluid. If it breaths it gets drowned> >> in the fluid. It never, never happens so. Once the baby is out of the womb> >> and exposed to the external atmosphere which is cooler by about 12 to 13> >> degrees the sudden change stimulates the muscles to contract and the baby> >> draws in air. This is the first breath. The action is so sharp and sudden> >> that is produces a sound, the cry. When it is smooth there may be no sound> >> but a comfortable breathing in. This makes clear on the difference of time> >> between cutting the chord and the time of breathing in of begining of life.> >> Dr. Luther Rath> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------> >> ** adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail..com>> >> *To:* @gro ups.com > >>> >> *Sent:* Monday, January 26, 2009 10:18:19 PM> >> *Subject:* Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived> >> at by RP method is correct or not...> >>> >> Dear JVRAO ji,> >>> >> In some cases, the baby does not cry immediately and it takes so long to> >> cry!> >>> >> I hope when the umbilical chord if cut, the connection bet the mother and> >> baby is disconnected and the lungs of the baby start breathing .> >>> >> I hope:> >> *"When we say the death is the time of Last Breath. In the same way, the> >> Birth must be the time of First Breath of the Baby"> >>> >> First Breath is initiated only after the Umbilical Chord is cut!> >> *> >> Regards> >> Adith*> >> *> >>> >>> >> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:21 PM, rao jv raojv185 (AT) (DOT) co.ukraojv185 >> > wrote:> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Dear all> >>> Instead of taking the time of cutting the umbilical chord> >>> we can as well determine the birth time from FIRST CRY of the baby.> >>> This should be more accurate because ,that would be the first connection> >>> the baby has established with this new world from mothers womb.> >>> Please clarify> >>> JVRAO> >>>> >>>> >>> *Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ chowkseyneeraj*wrote:> >>>> >>> Dear Sir,> >>> I aggrree with you Sir.> >>> Thanks & regards,> >>> Neeraj> >>>> >>> --- On *Sat, 1/24/09, Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ r.dhanabalan >>> >* wrote:> >>>> >>>> >>> Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ r.dhanabalan> >>> Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at> >>> by RP method is correct or not...> >>>> >>> @gro ups.com > >>>> >>> Saturday, January 24, 2009, 2:35 PM> >>>> >>> Dear Neeraj> >>> Your approach is good but no one in the hospital will cooperate with the> >>> astrologers. Mr.Mohankumar, our member tried for his child birth time to be> >>> recorded by the doctor/Nurse at the time of umblical card cutting but failed> >>> in his attempt. Unless the astrologers are allowed in the labour room to> >>> note down the card cutting time, it is difficult to do the study.> >>>> >>> I have read somewhere that in foreign country one doctor cum astrologer> >>> has conducted a study on the card cutting time in his hospital.> >>>> >>> Dhanabalan> >>>> >>> --- On *Thu, 1/22/09, Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ >*wrote:> >>>> >>>> >>> Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ >> >>> Re: Re: K..P. method to check whether TOB arrived> >>> at by RP method is correct or not....> >>> @gro ups.com> >>> Thursday, January 22, 2009, 6:05 AM> >>>> >>> Dear Punitji,> >>> The main problem in finding out or fixing correct method of BTR is that ,> >>> who will confirm that the result come after rectification is true i mean to> >>> say if TOB is not taken perfectly at it's true delivery. We will only say on> >>> assumtion if events of case is matching with kundli made by corrected time.> >>> What I feel personly that for having proved method of BTR ,we should have> >>> at least some say 25 to 50 cases with perfect birth time taken at hospital> >>> by nurse or doctor with perfectly mached time watch, considering all this> >>> cases with all available method , check wich method gives the answer(which> >>> is alreadyknown or noted at the time of birth) . This alltogether seems> >>> difficult but just an idea i am keeping & posting to forum.> >>> Here having cases of perfect birth time can be obtain from our contact of> >>> any maternity home asking for the same for case study.> >>>> >>> I hope you understand what I all mean to say in above , My english is> >>> not so perfect to express what I meant to say in HINDI.My english is just> >>> limited to only CIVIL Engineering.> >>>> >>> Thanks & Regards,> >>> Neeraj> >>>> >>>> >>> --- On *Wed, 1/21/09, Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>* wrote:> >>>> >>>> >>> Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> >>> Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at> >>> by RP method is correct or not...> >>> @gro ups.com> >>> Wednesday, January 21, 2009, 1:38 PM> >>>> >>> Dear Ajoy ji,> >>>> >>> I am not aware of the Subhash ji's method. Can you please share the> >>> central idea of the method here.> >>>> >>> Thanks & Regards,> >>>> >>> Punit Pandey> >>>> >>>> >>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 6:57 PM, ajoy s. chomaal <ajoy_matchless@> >>> .co. in ajoy_matchless wrote:> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Dear Punit ji,> >>>>> >>>> Too much has been said and discussed too many times on this subject. As> >>>> you rightly said, we cannot determine the correctness of any method.> >>>>> >>>> Having said this and also keeping in mind the fact that our Late Guruji> >>>> Prof. K.S. Krishnamurti had elaborately considered ruling Planets to rectify> >>>> the birth time, i have been using the method practiced by respected> >>>> Mr.Subhash Ektare ji. His method is quiet convincing and i have found it> >>>> correct in almost all of my cases requiring BTR. The same can be found in> >>>> the April 2008 issue of Astrovision magazine.> >>>>> >>>> regards,> >>>> AJOY> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> --- On *Wed, 21/1/09, Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) compunitp >>>> >* wrote:> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com punitp> >>>>> >>>> Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived> >>>> at by RP method is correct or not...> >>>> @gro ups.com > >>>>> >>>> Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 4:16 PM> >>>>> >>>> Dear Sunaparantha ji,> >>>>> >>>> There is nothing like Punit's BTR method. I was kidding to communicate> >>>> that even if I create one, there is no way to disprove it. Without any> >>>> verification method, we can not determine the correctness of any method.> >>>> Especially KP has no rules related to sub-sub, so astrologically we can not> >>>> know whether the resultant time is correct or not.> >>>>> >>>> Thanks & Regards,> >>>>> >>>> Punit Pandey> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Sunaparantha Kalyan <sunaparantha@> >>>> sunaparantha wrote:> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Punit ji.> >>>>>> >>>>> I appreciate yr great works at all times.> >>>>> The good news I heard today is "I create a new method of birth time> >>>>> rectification (Punit's method of BTR)> >>>>> So can we too see the method?> >>>>>> >>>>> Sunaparantha> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------> >>>>> ** Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) .. . . com punitp> >>>>>> >>>>> *To:* @gro ups..com > >>>>>> >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:54:48 PM> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived> >>>>> at by RP method is correct or not...> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Dear Lajmi ji,> >>>>>> >>>>> I am aware of this method and I am also aware of the dispute on> >>>>> Moon-Ascendant connection method. There is also a statistical research in> >>>>> this forum which disproves it. Though in my opinion, without knowing> >>>>> practical application of sub-sub, there is no way to check the correctness> >>>>> practically.> >>>>>> >>>>> Let me put it this way, suppose I create a new method of birth time> >>>>> rectification (Punit's method of BTR) where I say that *Sun's* star> >>>>> lord and sub-lord must appear as the sub-lord and sub-sub lord of the> >>>>> ascendant. I claim that it is correct. Now how you will prove or disprove> >>>>> it? This is I mean by a method of practical verification.> >>>>>> >>>>> Thanks & Regards,> >>>>>> >>>>> Punit Pandey> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi lyrastro1 (AT) (DOT) > >>>>> co.in lyrastro1 wrote:> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Punit,> >>>>>> If the TOB arrived at by using the RP method,(or any> >>>>>> other method), *there* *certainly is a method to check whether the> >>>>>> TOB arrived at,* *is correct or not...*> >>>>>> The Moon's star-lord and sub-lord *must appear as *the> >>>>>> sub-lord and sub-sublord of the Ascendant... if the Ascendant is correct...> >>>>>> (*Ref: K.P. & Astrology,Part II. by late Shri M.P. Shanmugham & > >>>>>> Edited by Mr.K..Subramaniam.)*> >>>>>> * The Lagna-sub should tell the birth-star of the> >>>>>> native...is the rule...if Rahu/Kethu happen to be the agent of the star-lord> >>>>>> of the native, then,the Lagna-sublord in whose star it is,that star should> >>>>>> be connected to Rahu/Kethu.. .says the late Mr.Shanmugham. ....*> >>>>>> At least,as for me, I follow this method to check> >>>>>> whether a Chart cast is correct or not...so far,I've been getting quite> >>>>>> accurate and correct results...also one can even *fine-tune the> >>>>>> TOB...upto the sub-sub level or,in other words to the second...!*> >>>>>> With kind regards,> >>>>>> L.Y.Rao.> >>>>>> GOOD LUCK !> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------> >>>>>> ** Punit Pandey punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) .. . . com punitp> >>>>>>> >>>>>> *To:* @gro ups..com > >>>>>>> >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 January, 2009 11:28:26 PM> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Re: female and male chart how?> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Friends,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Seeing differences in calculations, ayanamsa, and not using precise> >>>>>> latitude, geocentric vs. geographic latitude etc., taking sub-sub for cuspal> >>>>>> positions in predictions seems a little bit risky to me.. Also though KP> >>>>>> uses Placidus house system, there is controversy among westerns for using it> >>>>>> for higher latitudes. Also unavailability of any reliable method for> >>>>>> verification of birth time adds confusion to that.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> In my opinion, though, it is OK to take sub-sub for the planetary> >>>>>> positions... . Sub-sub is also OK for BTR, because the process is already> >>>>>> documented.. Having said that, still there is no method for verification for> >>>>>> the sub-sub that comes out using RP based BTR.> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks & Regards,> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Punit Pandey> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:05 PM, adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@> >>>>>> gmail.com gkadithkasinath wrote:> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear tw ji,> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the sub sub theory may be useful only in the horary but not in the> >>>>>>> Natal, as there are chances of difference in the sub sub even for a minute> >>>>>>> difference in the birth time which is very difficult to rectify!> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards> >>>>>>> Adith> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 6:36 PM, tw853 tw853 tw853 >>>>>>> > wrote:> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. Kar calls his sub sub theory as Kar Padhdhati, Baskaran as KB> >>>>>>>> and> >>>>>>>> Khullar KCIL without mixing up with KP for their own way of KP> >>>>>>>> related> >>>>>>>> theories.> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If the sub sub is supposed to give better accurate prediction, why> >>>>>>>> not> >>>>>>>> to go further to the sub sub sub for the best accuracy?> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @gro ups.com <%40>,> >>>>>>>> "swami" swami@ wrote:> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > kondapaneni suneel <ksuneel_dhamma@ >> >>>>>>>> To:@gro ups.com>> >>>>>>>> > Wednesday, 7 January, 2009 10:08:46 AM> >>>>>>>> > female and male chart how?> >>>>>>>> > Dear Elders,> >>>>>>>> > One date of birth is given or chart is given how to discriminate> >>>>>>>> whether given is that of male or female chart? Please explain..> >>>>>>>> suniel> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > Dear Friends,> >>>>>>>> > In continuation to discussion so far on this thread;> >>>>>>>> > Sometimes we miss the point. To my understanding Question after> >>>>>>>> paraphrasing was How to find sex of native from chart under study or> >>>>>>>> how to verify chart erected on birth data confirms sex of Native?> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > If this inference is correct Sub theory and Vedic astrology both> >>>>>>>> have principles to determine sex not only from the birth chart but> >>>>>>>> also from conception chart.> >>>>>>>> > In KP Literature I have come across writing by Pdt K.R.Kar> >>>>>>>> mentioning rules about how to judge Sex of native.. And also post> >>>>>>>> conception In A & A.> >>>>>>>> > Just to quote :> >>>>>>>> > Ref Dedicated To Learners- Beginners Events that came true. In A & A> >>>>>>>> April 1980.> >>>>>>>> > # A Krishna Murti follower furnished the birth data of the lady> >>>>>>>> and> >>>>>>>> as per him, her birth might have taken place between 2-15 AM and> >>>>>>>> 2-25> >>>>>>>> AM on 19 th July 1952 which He corrected and arrived at 2 hrs 25 Mts> >>>>>>>> 24 sec AM IST for 87E30 and 22N30.> >>>>>>>> > I took the matter for judgment on 9-6-79 at 8-45 P.M. at 85E20 and> >>>>>>>> 22N06....He continues to examine as per KP guide lines... using RP .> >>>>>>>> > At the end of consideration of RP planets He continues: Sub-sub is> >>>>>>>> the strongest lord and we should attach careful attention to this in> >>>>>>>> such a way that its star lord should be posited in the sign which> >>>>>>>> should be a female sign (the case is for female birth) ...> >>>>>>>> > Further his argument was, The sub- sub lord of the lagna> >>>>>>>> (Ascendant)> >>>>>>>> will decide whether the native is a male born or a female born,> >>>>>>>> > It is true that on the basis of RP we can select the sub- sub to> >>>>>>>> arrive at the conclusion that may not always be correct.> >>>>>>>> > In ruling planets, lords of Sub- sub may be one but in Birth chart> >>>>>>>> lord of sub -sub may be different.> >>>>>>>> > (for example, suppose we wisely selected planet A as Sub- sub lord> >>>>>>>> because he is posited in the star of planet B who is posited in the> >>>>>>>> required Rasi but while birth chart is erected A may not be posited> >>>>>>>> in the star of B , He may have shifted to some other Rasi which is> >>>>>>>> not> >>>>>>>> required one .This we should carefully bear in mind)> >>>>>>>> > Whether consideration of Saturn sub- sub is justified or not can> >>>>>>>> be> >>>>>>>> verified from the birth chart when we will erect her cusp and> >>>>>>>> planetary positions.> >>>>>>>> > * To determine the sex of native, sub- sub lord of Ascendant lagan> >>>>>>>> is to be examined. The sub -sub lord of the lagan is Say a Planet> >>>>>>>> SAT> >>>>>>>> and SAT is posited at Virgo - kanya and SAT is a female rasi but> >>>>>>>> SAT s occupancy in the female sign is not the final determinant> >>>>>>>> factor. Star position of the planet in stellar method is to be taken> >>>>>>>> in to deep consideration. Saturn is posited in the star of Moon who> >>>>>>>> is> >>>>>>>> posited in the female sign of Taurus- Rishaba. So we can say that> >>>>>>>> native is a female one.> >>>>>>>> > I appreciate The Answer given by Sri Lajmi ji and agree to Shri> >>>>>>>> K.P.Naidu if any rule applies Reverse may also be true (barring a> >>>>>>>> few> >>>>>>>> unknown parameters ) as its application is discussed in example> >>>>>>>> quoted> >>>>>>>> above.> >>>>>>>> > Although I could not understand>if not, correct it is as per KP> >>>>>>>> method < in the statement of Shri lajmi ji.> >>>>>>>> > I hope Now Hard liner will say That Pdt Kar was not in KP> >>>>>>>> Astrology.> >>>>>>>> > May be who knows.> >>>>>>>> > Lastly every body knows lagan is fastest so with time, Sub-sub> >>>>>>>> will> >>>>>>>> also be very fast and Star lord is also going to change, I want to> >>>>>>>> understand why this theory is untouchable?> >>>>>>>> > With regards.> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > R.C.Srivastava. .> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > swami@> >>>>>>>> > Past mails summary.> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > By the way rule was> >>>>>>>> > * Yogesh Rao Lajmi Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 7:53 PM Dear> >>>>>>>> Suneel,> >>>>>>>> > If the TOB given is the exact one, (if not, correct it as per> >>>>>>>> K.P> >>>>>>>> method). Then, pl. follow the method given by Mr... Sunil> >>>>>>>> Gondhalekar :> >>>>>>>> "If the sub-lord of the sub-lord of the Ascendant, if posited in a> >>>>>>>> star, whose lord is situated in a male sign then the chart is of a> >>>>>>>> male child... if in a female sign, then the chart is of a female> >>>>>>>> child...."> >>>>>>>> > So far, I have found this method extremely> >>>>>>>> accurate... L.Y.Rao.> >>>>>>>> > * K. P.. Naidu konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in o: @gro> >>>>>>>> ups.com> >>>>>>>> > Thursday, 8 January, 2009 9:44:54 PM> >>>>>>>> > Dear sri Rao garu,> >>>>>>>> > If the method of sri Gondhalekar for ascertaining the gender of> >>>>>>>> the> >>>>>>>> native of the given chart, proved correct, can we confirm that the> >>>>>>>> chart is correct and the Birth Date is correct. In other wards, can> >>>>>>>> we> >>>>>>>> use this Gondhalekar; s method to rectify/correct the Birth Time ?> >>>>>>>> Regards. K. P. Naidu, Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts., Nowroji Road,> >>>>>>>> Maharanipeta, VISAKHAPATNAM 530002. Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> >>>>>>>> > * Personally,I use the method given in Astrosecrets & K..P by> >>>>>>>> Mr.K.Subramaniam and the late Shri M.P. Shanmugham, Part II....but I> >>>>>>>> include the sub and sub-sub also to fine-tune the TOB...but,> >>>>>>>> sometimes> >>>>>>>> ,rarely though, this method does not seem practicable, in that case> >>>>>>>> I> >>>>>>>> use the Ruling Planets method described in the same book...> >>>>>>>> > It is well to remember that, if> >>>>>>>> the Ascendant's sub lord and the sub-sub lord appear to the same as> >>>>>>>> the st.-lord and sub-lord of the Moon...such a TOB arrived at, is> >>>>>>>> exact to the minute...> >>>>>>>> > * K. P. Naidu Friday, 9 January, 2009, 10:19 PM> >>>>>>>> > Dear sri Rao Garu,> >>>>>>>> > I am sorry, the matter is deviated. I have not referred> >>>>>>>> Shanmugam's> >>>>>>>> method nor RP method. Some reader in this forum raised query "How to> >>>>>>>> to acertain the gender of the native of a given chart - whether of a> >>>>>>>> male or female ? ". You have replied Gondhalekar' s method - If the> >>>>>>>> Ascendant's sub lord's sub lord's star lord falls in a male sign the> >>>>>>>> native of the given chart is Male, if falls in female sign the> >>>>>>>> native> >>>>>>>> is female child. All this holds good, if the Birth Time is correct.> >>>>>>>> > You said the above Gondhalekar' s method will work only when the> >>>>>>>> Birth Time of the chart is correct.> >>>>>>>> > I, therefore, asked you in my previous message, whether the above> >>>>>>>> method works in reverse order to rectify Birth Time. i.e., if sri> >>>>>>>> Gondhalekar' s method gives correct result, can we consider Birth> >>>>>>>> Time> >>>>>>>> is correct ? If yes, this method can be used for BTR.> >>>>>>>> > Hope now I am clear.. Regards.> >>>>>>>> > * This theory should be taken with a pinch of salt. There may be> >>>>>>>> periods when all the planets happen to occupy either male or female> >>>>>>>> signs for up to 2¼ days. For example, from 12-10-2009 2 a...m.> >>>>>>>> approximately to 14-10-2009 approx 3.30 a.m. about over 2 days, all> >>>>>>>> the planets will occupy female signs. Can it be possible that all> >>>>>>>> the> >>>>>>>> births during these 2 days would be only girls worldwide?> >>>>>>>> > Hasmukhrai J Mehta.> >>>>>>>> > * Dear Mehta In the male sign, the first fifteen degrees are male> >>>>>>>> and the next fifteen degrees are female and vice versa for female> >>>>>>>> sign.> >>>>>>>> > Dhanabalan> >>>>>>>> > * The theory, untested should be taken with not "a pinch", but> >>>>>>>> with> >>>>>>>> a Pail of salt> >>>>>>>> > raichur anant mumbai> >>>>>>>> > * Agreed....... And, I thnik that KP does not recognize this> >>>>>>>> theory.> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > Hasmukhrai J Mehta> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------> >>>>>> Get perfect Email ID for your Resume. Get before others grab.<http://in.rd./tagline_dbid_5/*http://in.promos./address>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------> >>>> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.<http://in.rd.....com/tagline_messenger_6/*http://messenger./invite/>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >>

January 29, 2009

Dear Luther

During birth time rectification, we have to fix all the 12 subs. To fix all the 12 subs, we have go to the subsubsub level in the first cusp.Dhanabalan--- On Thu, 1/29/09, Luther Rath <rathluther wrote:

Luther Rath <rathlutherRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not... Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 1:48 PM

Dear Adith,

Yes, you are very right. The doctor and the limitted number of staff posted, remain busy in resusitation of the baby in various steps. Hence no doubt the time recorded differs by few minutes . If you work up to sub level in many cases the sub does not change, though it happens in marginal cases..If one works on sub-sub or sub-sub-sub levels one is mostly compelled to err. To attempt up to such minute level is never risk-free.

With regards.

Dr. Luther Rath.

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comThursday, January 29, 2009 9:00:11 AMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear Dr.Luther Rath,

Noted your points.

Hence the time of first breath has to be noted which may be practically impossible by the doctors or any assistants as the might be busy focussing on the precatious measures on the delivery and the mother,baby. hence they may miss the exact time also. If the subs and the planets are not in the border, then there is no issue. Even if they note,the time given by them should match to the Standard time which is most important.. Normally, as no two watches match, always the chances of differences and err in the actual birth time are vast.

Our Guruji has followed the Prasanna to avoid such confusions.

Regards

Adith

On 1/28/09, Luther Rath <rathluther > wrote:

Dear Adith,

Definitely, you have raised a sensitive point. Supposing the head of the baby is out but the chest remains inside, say in case of a case 'Chord round the neck' or any other obstrution, the baby cannot inhale as there won't be space for expansion of the chest. So even if the head is out for 5 to 10 minutes and the chest is not out ; the time cannot be taken as birth time. The chest should be out, exposed to the external cold atmosphere, and the baby should breath in. This time should be the real astrological birth time.

With Regards.

Dr. Luther Rath.

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com>@gro ups..comWednesday, January 28, 2009 2:46:05 PMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear Dr.Luther Rath,Thanks for your participation and valuable points.I do understand all your technical points,of course I am also basically a Veterinarian, but not into practice.I was with my wife during her delivery when my baby started crying as you rightly said, immediately after it came out and even before cutting the Chord.So it is scientifcally true that once the baby is exposed to the new external atmoshpere, it takes its first breath. Even if the chord if not cut! Hence can we take the time of birth of the baby when it is exposed to the external atmo., ie., when its face is completely out ! since there are chances for the baby to cry just with the head alone out and the body still inside..sometimes when there is some possibililty if choke inside which may lead to difficluty if delivery. In such situation, the baby may inhale the amniotic fluid also ?!Just I asking your valuable

comment!Hence the first breath is to taken for the Birth of the Baby1RegardsAdith

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Luther Rath <rathluther > wrote:

Dear Adith,

Sorry for commining in. I had to say that, All babies do not cry even if they are out of the mother's womb, nor all take breath immidiately after the chord is cut. Some do but some take breath after some medical resussitation only. Before a baby breaths in air from the atmosphere, the lungs remain solid enough. This is an important test to know whether a baby was born alive or still. If the lung floats in water the inference is the baby was live for some time at least. and if it does not float then the conclusion is the baby was never alive. The baby never breaths inside the womb as there is no air in it , there is only amniotic fluid. If it breaths it gets drowned in the fluid. It never, never happens so. Once the baby is out of the womb and exposed to the external atmosphere which is cooler by about 12 to 13 degrees the sudden change stimulates the muscles to contract and the baby draws in air. This is the first breath. The action is so sharp and

sudden that is produces a sound, the cry. When it is smooth there may be no sound but a comfortable breathing in. This makes clear on the difference of time between cutting the chord and the time of breathing in of begining of life.

Dr. Luther Rath

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail..com>

@gro ups.com

Monday, January 26, 2009 10:18:19 PMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear JVRAO ji,In some cases, the baby does not cry immediately and it takes so long to cry! I hope when the umbilical chord if cut, the connection bet the mother and baby is disconnected and the lungs of the baby start breathing .I hope:"When we say the death is the time of Last Breath. In the same way, the Birth must be the time of First Breath of the Baby"First Breath is initiated only after the Umbilical Chord is cut!RegardsAdith

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:21 PM, rao jv <raojv185 (AT) (DOT) . co.uk> wrote:

Dear allInstead of taking the time of cutting the umbilical chord we can as well determine the birth time from FIRST CRY of the baby.This should be more accurate because ,that would be the first connectionthe baby has established with this new world from mothers womb..Please clarifyJVRAO

Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ > wrote:

Dear Sir,

I aggrree with you Sir.

Thanks & regards,

Neeraj--- On Sat, 1/24/09, Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ > wrote:

Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ >Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not... @gro ups.com

Saturday, January 24, 2009, 2:35 PM

Dear Neeraj

Your approach is good but no one in the hospital will cooperate with the astrologers. Mr.Mohankumar, our member tried for his child birth time to be recorded by the doctor/Nurse at the time of umblical card cutting but failed in his attempt. Unless the astrologers are allowed in the labour room to note down the card cutting time, it is difficult to do the study.

I have read somewhere that in foreign country one doctor cum astrologer has conducted a study on the card cutting time in his hospital.

Dhanabalan

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ > wrote:

Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ >Re: Re: K..P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not....@gro ups.comThursday, January 22, 2009, 6:05 AM

Dear Punitji,

The main problem in finding out or fixing correct method of BTR is that , who will confirm that the result come after rectification is true i mean to say if TOB is not taken perfectly at it's true delivery. We will only say on assumtion if events of case is matching with kundli made by corrected time.

What I feel personly that for having proved method of BTR ,we should have at least some say 25 to 50 cases with perfect birth time taken at hospital by nurse or doctor with perfectly mached time watch, considering all this cases with all available method , check wich method gives the answer(which is alreadyknown or noted at the time of birth) . This alltogether seems difficult but just an idea i am keeping & posting to forum.

Here having cases of perfect birth time can be obtain from our contact of any maternity home asking for the same for case study.

I hope you understand what I all mean to say in above , My english is not so perfect to express what I meant to say in HINDI.My english is just limited to only CIVIL Engineering.

Thanks & Regards,

Neeraj

--- On Wed, 1/21/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com>Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...@gro ups.comWednesday, January 21, 2009, 1:38 PM

Dear Ajoy ji,I am not aware of the Subhash ji's method. Can you please share the central idea of the method here. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 6:57 PM, ajoy s. chomaal <ajoy_matchless@ .co. in> wrote:

Dear Punit ji,Too much has been said and discussed too many times on this subject. As you rightly said, we cannot determine the correctness of any method.Having said this and also keeping in mind the fact that our Late Guruji Prof. K.S. Krishnamurti had elaborately considered ruling Planets to rectify the birth time, i have been using the method practiced by respected Mr.Subhash Ektare ji. His method is quiet convincing and i have found it correct in almost all of my cases requiring BTR. The same can be found in the April 2008 issue of Astrovision magazine.regards,AJOY --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) . com> Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not... @gro ups.com Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 4:16 PM

Dear Sunaparantha ji,There is nothing like Punit's BTR method. I was kidding to communicate that even if I create one, there is no way to disprove it. Without any verification method, we can not determine the correctness of any method. Especially KP has no rules related to sub-sub, so astrologically we can not know whether the resultant time is correct or not. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Sunaparantha Kalyan <sunaparantha@ > wrote:

Dear Punit ji.I appreciate yr great works at all times.The good news I heard today is "I create a new method of birth time rectification (Punit's method of BTR)So can we too see the method?Sunaparantha

Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) . .. . . com> @gro ups..com

Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:54:48 PM Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear Lajmi ji,I am aware of this method and I am also aware of the dispute on Moon-Ascendant connection method. There is also a statistical research in this forum which disproves it. Though in my opinion, without knowing practical application of sub-sub, there is no way to check the correctness practically. Let me put it this way, suppose I create a new method of birth time rectification (Punit's method of BTR) where I say that Sun's star lord and sub-lord must appear as the sub-lord and sub-sub lord of the ascendant. I claim that it is correct. Now how you will prove or disprove it? This is I mean by a method of practical verification.Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi <lyrastro1 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

Dear Punit,

If the TOB arrived at by using the RP method,(or any other method), there certainly is a method to check whether the TOB arrived at, is correct or not...

The Moon's star-lord and sub-lord must appear as the sub-lord and sub-sublord of the Ascendant... if the Ascendant is correct...

(Ref: K.P. & Astrology,Part II. by late Shri M.P. Shanmugham & Edited by Mr.K..Subramaniam.)

The Lagna-sub should tell the birth-star of the native...is the rule...if Rahu/Kethu happen to be the agent of the star-lord of the native, then,the Lagna-sublord in whose star it is,that star should be connected to Rahu/Kethu.. .says the late Mr.Shanmugham. .....

At least,as for me, I follow this method to check whether a Chart cast is correct or not...so far,I've been getting quite accurate and correct results...also one can even fine-tune the TOB...upto the sub-sub level or,in other words to the second...!

With kind regards,

L.Y.Rao.

GOOD LUCK !

Punit Pandey <punitp (AT) gmail (DOT) . .. . . com> @gro ups..com

Tuesday, 20 January, 2009 11:28:26 PMRe: Re: female and male chart how?

Dear Friends, Seeing differences in calculations, ayanamsa, and not using precise latitude, geocentric vs. geographic latitude etc., taking sub-sub for cuspal positions in predictions seems a little bit risky to me.. Also though KP uses Placidus house system, there is controversy among westerns for using it for higher latitudes. Also unavailability of any reliable method for verification of birth time adds confusion to that. In my opinion, though, it is OK to take sub-sub for the planetary positions.... . Sub-sub is also OK for BTR, because the process is already documented... Having said that, still there is no method for verification for the sub-sub that comes out using RP based BTR. Thanks & Regards,Punit Pandey

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 9:05 PM, adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com> wrote:

Dear tw ji,the sub sub theory may be useful only in the horary but not in the Natal, as there are chances of difference in the sub sub even for a minute difference in the birth time which is very difficult to rectify! RegardsAdith

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 6:36 PM, tw853 <tw853 > wrote:

Dr. Kar calls his sub sub theory as Kar Padhdhati, Baskaran as KB andKhullar KCIL without mixing up with KP for their own way of KP relatedtheories.If the sub sub is supposed to give better accurate prediction, why notto go further to the sub sub sub for the best accuracy?

@gro ups.com, "swami" <swami..> wrote:>> kondapaneni suneel <ksuneel_dhamma@ >To:<@gro ups.com>> Wednesday, 7 January, 2009 10:08:46 AM> female and male chart how?> Dear Elders, > One date of birth is given or chart is given how to discriminatewhether given is that of male or female chart? Please explain.. suniel > > > > Dear Friends,> In continuation to discussion so far on this thread; > Sometimes we miss the point. To my understanding Question afterparaphrasing was How to find sex of native from chart under study orhow to verify chart erected on birth

data confirms sex of Native?> > If this inference is correct Sub theory and Vedic astrology bothhave principles to determine sex not only from the birth chart butalso from conception chart.> In KP Literature I have come across writing by Pdt K.R.Karmentioning rules about how to judge Sex of native.. And also postconception In A & A.> Just to quote :> Ref Dedicated To Learners- Beginners Events that came true. In A & AApril 1980.> # A Krishna Murti follower furnished the birth data of the lady andas per him, her birth might have taken place between 2-15 AM and 2-25AM on 19 th July 1952 which He corrected and arrived at 2 hrs 25 Mts24 sec AM IST for 87E30 and 22N30..> I took the matter for judgment on 9-6-79 at 8-45 P.M. at 85E20 and22N06....He continues to examine as per KP guide lines... using RP .> At the end of consideration of RP planets He continues:

Sub-sub isthe strongest lord and we should attach careful attention to this insuch a way that its star lord should be posited in the sign whichshould be a female sign (the case is for female birth) ...> Further his argument was, The sub- sub lord of the lagna (Ascendant)will decide whether the native is a male born or a female born,> It is true that on the basis of RP we can select the sub- sub toarrive at the conclusion that may not always be correct.> In ruling planets, lords of Sub- sub may be one but in Birth chartlord of sub -sub may be different.> (for example, suppose we wisely selected planet A as Sub- sub lordbecause he is posited in the star of planet B who is posited in therequired Rasi but while birth chart is erected A may not be positedin the star of B , He may have shifted to some other Rasi which is notrequired one .This we should carefully bear in mind) > Whether

consideration of Saturn sub- sub is justified or not can beverified from the birth chart when we will erect her cusp andplanetary positions. > * To determine the sex of native, sub- sub lord of Ascendant laganis to be examined. The sub -sub lord of the lagan is Say a Planet SATand SAT is posited at Virgo - kanya and SAT is a female rasi butSAT s occupancy in the female sign is not the final determinantfactor. Star position of the planet in stellar method is to be takenin to deep consideration. Saturn is posited in the star of Moon who isposited in the female sign of Taurus- Rishaba. So we can say thatnative is a female one.> I appreciate The Answer given by Sri Lajmi ji and agree to ShriK.P.Naidu if any rule applies Reverse may also be true (barring a fewunknown parameters ) as its application is discussed in example quotedabove.> Although I could not understand>if not, correct it

is as per KPmethod < in the statement of Shri lajmi ji.> I hope Now Hard liner will say That Pdt Kar was not in KP Astrology.> May be who knows.> Lastly every body knows lagan is fastest so with time, Sub-sub willalso be very fast and Star lord is also going to change, I want tounderstand why this theory is untouchable?> With regards.> > R.C.Srivastava. . > swami.

> Past mails summary.> > By the way rule was > * Yogesh Rao Lajmi Wednesday, 7 January, 2009, 7:53 PM DearSuneel,> If the TOB given is the exact one, (if not, correct it as per K.Pmethod). Then, pl. follow the method given by Mr... Sunil Gondhalekar : "If the sub-lord of the sub-lord of the Ascendant, if posited in astar, whose lord is situated in a male sign then the chart is of amale child... if in a female sign, then the chart is of a female child...."> So far, I have found this method extremelyaccurate... L.Y.Rao.> * K. P.. Naidu konathalan (AT) (DOT) co.in o: @gro ups.com> Thursday, 8 January, 2009 9:44:54 PM> Dear sri Rao garu, > If the method of sri Gondhalekar for ascertaining the gender of thenative of the given chart, proved correct, can we confirm that thechart is correct and the Birth Date is correct. In other wards, can weuse this Gondhalekar; s method to rectify/correct the Birth Time ? Regards. K. P. Naidu, Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts., Nowroji Road,Maharanipeta, VISAKHAPATNAM 530002. Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> * Personally,I use the method given in Astrosecrets & K..P byMr.K.Subramaniam and the late Shri M.P. Shanmugham, Part II....but Iinclude the sub and sub-sub also to fine-tune the TOB...but, sometimes,rarely though, this method does not seem practicable, in that case Iuse the Ruling Planets method described in the same book...>

It is well to remember that, ifthe Ascendant's sub lord and the sub-sub lord appear to the same asthe st.-lord and sub-lord of the Moon...such a TOB arrived at, isexact to the minute...> * K. P. Naidu Friday, 9 January, 2009, 10:19 PM> Dear sri Rao Garu, > I am sorry, the matter is deviated. I have not referred Shanmugam'smethod nor RP method. Some reader in this forum raised query "How toto acertain the gender of the native of a given chart - whether of amale or female ? ". You have replied Gondhalekar' s method - If theAscendant's sub lord's sub lord's star lord falls in a male sign thenative of the given chart is Male, if falls in female sign the nativeis female child. All this holds good, if the Birth Time is correct.> You

said the above Gondhalekar' s method will work only when theBirth Time of the chart is correct.> I, therefore, asked you in my previous message, whether the abovemethod works in reverse order to rectify Birth Time. i.e., if sriGondhalekar' s method gives correct result, can we consider Birth Timeis correct ? If yes, this method can be used for BTR. > Hope now I am clear.. Regards.> * This theory should be taken with a pinch of salt. There may beperiods when all the planets happen to occupy either male or femalesigns for up to 2¼ days. For example, from 12-10-2009 2 a...m.approximately to 14-10-2009 approx 3.30 a.m. about over 2 days, allthe planets will occupy female signs. Can it be possible that all thebirths during these 2 days would be only girls worldwide? > Hasmukhrai J Mehta. > * Dear Mehta In the male sign, the first fifteen degrees are maleand the next

fifteen degrees are female and vice versa for female sign. > Dhanabalan > * The theory, untested should be taken with not "a pinch", but witha Pail of salt> raichur anant mumbai> * Agreed....... . . And, I thnik that KP does not recognize this theory. > > Hasmukhrai J Mehta>

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January 29, 2009

Dear FriendsLast eve I had a chance to discuss with a Doctor in charge of a Maternity Home and a Retired Matron in charge of a Labor Ward on topic of the Birth Time.According to them, the cutting of the cord or crying of the baby is immaterial for them. As soon as the whole body of the baby come out of the mothers womb, they just pick up the baby by legs and see the clock as a habit only for the recording purpose and for parents.Further they declared that some babies are crying at the very first moment of touching the bed, even before cutting the cord or taking him up, due to the pain experienced at the effort of mother to deliver and same as the baby.In Caesarean cases, the note the time of taking

the baby out of the womb.Occasionally, the time recorded might be the time of first crying, but it is at lower rate Therefore we have to decide all the BTs issued by the authorities of the delivery rooms as incorrect and BTVR and BTR are must for almost all the BTs receive by the Astrologer.SunaparanthaLuther Rath <rathluther Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 7:18:46 PMRe:

Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP

method is correct or not...

Dear Adith,

Yes, you are very right. The doctor and the limitted number of staff posted, remain busy in resusitation of the baby in various steps. Hence no doubt the time recorded differs by few minutes . If you work up to sub level in many cases the sub does not change, though it happens in marginal cases.If one works on sub-sub or sub-sub-sub levels one is mostly compelled to err. To attempt up to such minute level is never risk-free.

With regards..

Dr. Luther Rath.

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com>@gro ups.comThursday, January 29, 2009 9:00:11 AMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear Dr..Luther Rath,

Noted your points.

Hence the time of first breath has to be noted which may be practically impossible by the doctors or any assistants as the might be busy focussing on the precatious measures on the delivery and the mother,baby. hence they may miss the exact time also. If the subs and the planets are not in the border, then there is no issue. Even if they note,the time given by them should match to the Standard time which is most important. Normally, as no two watches match, always the chances of differences and err in the actual birth time are vast.

Our Guruji has followed the Prasanna to avoid such confusions.

Regards

Adith

On 1/28/09, Luther Rath <rathluther > wrote:

Dear Adith,

Definitely, you have raised a sensitive point. Supposing the head of the baby is out but the chest remains inside, say in case of a case 'Chord round the neck' or any other obstrution, the baby cannot inhale as there won't be space for expansion of the chest. So even if the head is out for 5 to 10 minutes and the chest is not out ; the time cannot be taken as birth time. The chest should be out, exposed to the external cold atmosphere, and the baby should breath in. This time should be the real astrological birth time.

With Regards.

Dr. Luther Rath.

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail.com>@gro ups..comWednesday, January 28, 2009 2:46:05 PMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear Dr.Luther Rath,Thanks for your participation and valuable points.I do understand all your technical points,of course I am also basically a Veterinarian, but not into practice.I was with my wife during her delivery when my baby started crying as you rightly said, immediately after it came out and even before cutting the Chord.So it is scientifcally true that once the baby is exposed to the new external atmoshpere, it takes its first breath. Even if the chord if not cut! Hence can we take the time of birth of the baby when it is exposed to the external atmo., ie., when its face is completely out ! since there are chances for the baby to cry just with the head alone out and the body still inside..sometimes when there is some possibililty if choke inside which may lead to difficluty if delivery. In such situation, the baby may inhale the amniotic fluid also ?!Just I asking your valuable

comment!Hence the first breath is to taken for the Birth of the Baby1RegardsAdith

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Luther Rath <rathluther > wrote:

Dear Adith,

Sorry for commining in. I had to say that, All babies do not cry even if they are out of the mother's womb, nor all take breath immidiately after the chord is cut. Some do but some take breath after some medical resussitation only. Before a baby breaths in air from the atmosphere, the lungs remain solid enough. This is an important test to know whether a baby was born alive or still. If the lung floats in water the inference is the baby was live for some time at least. and if it does not float then the conclusion is the baby was never alive. The baby never breaths inside the womb as there is no air in it , there is only amniotic fluid. If it breaths it gets drowned in the fluid. It never, never happens so. Once the baby is out of the womb and exposed to the external atmosphere which is cooler by about 12 to 13 degrees the sudden change stimulates the muscles to contract and the baby draws in air. This is the first breath. The action is so sharp and

sudden that is produces a sound, the cry. When it is smooth there may be no sound but a comfortable breathing in. This makes clear on the difference of time between cutting the chord and the time of breathing in of begining of life.

Dr. Luther Rath

adith kasinath.g.k <gkadithkasinath@ gmail..com>

@gro ups.com

Monday, January 26, 2009 10:18:19 PMRe: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not...

Dear JVRAO ji,In some cases, the baby does not cry immediately and it takes so long to cry! I hope when the umbilical chord if cut, the connection bet the mother and baby is disconnected and the lungs of the baby start breathing .I hope:"When we say the death is the time of Last Breath. In the same way, the Birth must be the time of First Breath of the Baby"First Breath is initiated only after the Umbilical Chord is cut!RegardsAdith

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 2:21 PM, rao jv <raojv185 (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Dear allInstead of taking the time of cutting the umbilical chord we can as well determine the birth time from FIRST CRY of the baby.This should be more accurate because ,that would be the first connectionthe baby has established with this new world from mothers womb.Please clarifyJVRAO

Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ > wrote:

Dear Sir,

I aggrree with you Sir.

Thanks & regards,

Neeraj--- On Sat, 1/24/09, Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ > wrote:

Dhanabalan R <r.dhanabalan@ >Re: Re: K.P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not... @gro ups.com

Saturday, January 24, 2009, 2:35 PM

Dear Neeraj

Your approach is good but no one in the hospital will cooperate with the astrologers. Mr.Mohankumar, our member tried for his child birth time to be recorded by the doctor/Nurse at the time of umblical card cutting but failed in his attempt. Unless the astrologers are allowed in the labour room to note down the card cutting time, it is difficult to do the study.

I have read somewhere that in foreign country one doctor cum astrologer has conducted a study on the card cutting time in his hospital.

Dhanabalan

--- On Thu, 1/22/09, Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ > wrote:

Neeraj Chowksey <chowkseyneeraj@ >Re: Re: K..P. method to check whether TOB arrived at by RP method is correct or not....@gro ups.comThursday, January 22, 2009, 6:05 AM

Dear Punitji,

The main problem in finding out or fixing correct method of BTR is that , who will confirm that the result come after rectification is true i mean to say if TOB is not taken perfectly at it's true delivery. We will only say on assumtion if events of case is matching with kundli made by corrected time..