Guest guest Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Dear Sanat Kumar Jain, I think you should read the Preface and those are the Thoughts of the List Owner - Krushnaji http://krushna.sageasita.com/pdf/preface.pdf So whatever answers you are seeing for you might find it ALL or Some or None as per the Preface. For rest of the answers, you might have to seek some more general lists. We are right now in the middle of an assignment that members are trying to solve. Kindly do not disrupt that but instead, try to solve it using KAS. I have provided you with the link to what Krushnaji has said, rest of the members are advised to send replies should they wish in private to Sanat Jumar Jain and it will be appreciated. Cheers !!! Ash -> http://www.ashtro.ca On Behalf Of sanat2221 Tuesday October 30, 2007 2:00 PM ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH I will like to say that ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum. At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ? Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning……….. 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ? Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ? Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night…… 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ? Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realise that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe. Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more about the book or description of various chapters then you may send email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% 20jain & TAG= & CID= http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away). To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on my email sanatkumar_jain (AT) rediffmail (DOT) com .. It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). Sanat Kumar Jain Gwalior Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating problems to moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Dear Member, You have used a astrology Forum, to talk about astrology as damaging Society. This same subject makes you write a book and earn money through it. What a Irony ? Bad naming astrology and using same to earn money. Well, instead of going too much into pros and cons, I challenge you to get an audience of at least 1000 educated persons, pick up randomly 15 from them, do not tell me about them, I will astrologically prove and predict on stage, at least 5 incidents about each persons Life, without knowing them, without their Birth data, and without any recourse to any sort of knowledge about them. But I need following conditions to be fulfilled - 1) Let this be a Live audience. 2) I will charge you Rs.2 Lakhs each person for my right predictions. 3) You will promise not to bad mouth astrology ever again. 4) This will be done between morning 10.00am to evening 6.00pm 5) members should be chosen through Lottery (Ticket nos picked by Chief Guest from a box). 6) The members chosen be given 10 minutes to write about themselves ,and keep those papers ready to be read in front of the audience as soon as I finish with each of them. If You are ready, then I am ready for an Invite from you. And remember I will not loose a single persons payment, so keep the payment ready, with 10% advance. Let this be held in India, in any place and time of your choice. No more further talks, I need action from you now. regards, Bhaskar. , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > I will like to say that ponder and instead of sticking to some > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > other) ? > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > nector after sea-churning……….. > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > house) ? > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > sign) ? > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > day is more in comparison to night…… > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > small planet) has 20 years ? > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > apart? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > Universe. > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > deg. away). > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > with the above observation after going through my original > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > planets? > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > Universe, solar system. > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > my email sanatkumar_jain . It would be better to know > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > Damaging Society). > Sanat Kumar Jain > Gwalior > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > problems to moderator > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > Dear Mr Bhaskar, Sanat Kumar has raised a valid point about astrology and we must answer his points rather than throw up a challenge knowing fully well that no prediction has so far stood the test of time.If any prediction has come out true that is by chance following the laws of probability. Otherwise we are all experts in only interpreting events post facto. There is no harm in raising this question on this site since opposition like appreciation ( of so called gurus which is usual on this site) should also be appreciated. In case you are eager to throw up a challenge there is the James Randi Educational Foundation that is prepared to give you a million dollar for your bravado. (Please see site at http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/38/31/ ) Regards, P.N.Razdan > Dear Member, > > You have used a astrology Forum, to talk about > astrology as damaging Society. > This same subject makes you write a book > and earn money through it. > What a Irony ? > Bad naming astrology and using same to earn money. > > Well, instead of going too much into > pros and cons, I challenge you to get an > audience of at least 1000 educated persons, > pick up randomly 15 from them, do not > tell me about them, I will astrologically prove > and predict on stage, at least 5 incidents about > each persons Life, without knowing them, without > their Birth data, and without any recourse to any > sort of knowledge about them. But I need following > conditions to be fulfilled - > > 1) Let this be a Live audience. > 2) I will charge you Rs.2 Lakhs each person > for my right predictions. > 3) You will promise not to bad mouth astrology > ever again. > 4) This will be done between morning 10.00am to > evening 6.00pm > 5) members should be chosen through Lottery > (Ticket nos picked by Chief Guest from a box). > 6) The members chosen be given 10 minutes to write > about themselves ,and keep those papers ready to > be read in front of the audience as soon as I > finish with each of them. > > If You are ready, then I am ready for an Invite > from you. > > And remember I will not loose a single persons > payment, so keep the payment ready, with 10% > advance. Let this be held in India, in any > place and time of your choice. > > No more further talks, I need action from you now. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > I will like to say that ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. > So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate > of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within > a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on���. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning���.. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field���.. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night�� > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted��. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures���. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away�.. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse�.. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse���.. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month���. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned > in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 > ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14�. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and > 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then > I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played > an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears > to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still > if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction > on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology > Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 Dear Bhaskar Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your comments. I think you are very much hearted with my blog. So let me clear first that I do not want to disturb your day to day discussion. Hence I asked to write me directly on my email. Now I will try to face your comments. >>This same subject makes you write a book and earn money through it. What a Irony ? Bad naming astrology and using same to earn money. Yes, I wrote two ORIGINAL books on astrology (second book on public demand), but I am not earning from these books. You may perhaps be aware that it is publisher who gain or loose from the publication of a book and not the writer. So far royalty is concerned, so instead of this I have asked the publisher to reduce the cost so that ignorant public may go through and decide themselves as to whether astrology is a science or myth. So neither I am giving bad name to astrology nor I am earning from this. Because I am Senior Accounts Officer and earning handsome amount. Astrology is my hobby since last 35-40 years. It is not my profession hence I could deeply studied it and found the truth, which I am just sharing through my books. If by just opposing astrology you are categorizing me for bad naming then you are wrong. Because actually astrologers (I don't know about you) are neither following the Indian knowledge nor scientific logic. Because If astrology is beneficial by the names of Indian sages then they take their shelter, whereas our sages has neither devised signs (Rashis) etc. nor they have concept of solar system. On the other hand when astrologer find it beneficial then they use modern scientific data in support of astrology to befool general public so that they may think that astrology is science. Whereas scientific data are quite against with the concept of our sages. So actually astrologers are giving bad name to astrology by misguiding general public for their business considerations and using psychology, modern scientific data in the coverup of knowledge of sages, Ved etc.. Whereas I am just giving the factual position, and it is for the reader to decide as to what is right. If their may be a slightest truth in predictive astrology then I would be the first man who may be happy, Because I am actually associated with this since long and I have even designed a horoscope which comprises all astrological principles in single horoscope (which is also given in the Book). So far your challenge is concerned, and you are not prepared to answer the questions raised in my blog, because if you will answer these questions then you can realize that astrology is science or not; then I will like to say that If you have that much capacity then you just provide any foolproof astrological principle by which you can decide about 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female. 2 When he / she will be married. 3 When he / she will be father / mother 4 When he / she will die. Because answers to these questions are absolute and other predictive answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof principle for any prediction then you can also intimate for further interaction. If readers have faith on some astrologer then they may ask him above 4 questions and/or 10 questions raised in my blog, then they will realize the truth. If you are interested in public demo then contact concerning organization who is willing to pay one million dollar (4 crore Rs.) and don't waste your time for just 2 lakh Rs. If you want then you and other reader may directly write on my email sanatkumar_jain, because I do not want to disturb your discussion, because when some one wants to be misguided then why I should worry. But it is my social duty to inform some truth, Because they are not aware with the otherside story, but definitely I am not after any one. Yes I will like to add one more point that so far many astrologers and readers have gone through the book but non of them has ever intimated that he is not convinced with the factual position, but contrary to this every one praised the book, which is first book with such scientific analysis. Thanks once again, Yours, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Member, > > You have used a astrology Forum, to talk about > astrology as damaging Society. > This same subject makes you write a book > and earn money through it. > What a Irony ? > Bad naming astrology and using same to earn money. > > Well, instead of going too much into > pros and cons, I challenge you to get an > audience of at least 1000 educated persons, > pick up randomly 15 from them, do not > tell me about them, I will astrologically prove > and predict on stage, at least 5 incidents about > each persons Life, without knowing them, without > their Birth data, and without any recourse to any > sort of knowledge about them. But I need following > conditions to be fulfilled - > > 1) Let this be a Live audience. > 2) I will charge you Rs.2 Lakhs each person > for my right predictions. > 3) You will promise not to bad mouth astrology > ever again. > 4) This will be done between morning 10.00am to > evening 6.00pm > 5) members should be chosen through Lottery > (Ticket nos picked by Chief Guest from a box). > 6) The members chosen be given 10 minutes to write > about themselves ,and keep those papers ready to > be read in front of the audience as soon as I > finish with each of them. > > If You are ready, then I am ready for an Invite > from you. > > And remember I will not loose a single persons > payment, so keep the payment ready, with 10% > advance. Let this be held in India, in any > place and time of your choice. > > No more further talks, I need action from you now. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > I will like to say that ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. > So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate > of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within > a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned > in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 > ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and > 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then > I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played > an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears > to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still > if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction > on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology > Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Dear Mr. Sanat, U deserve our regards, Thanx a lot for posting this mail to the group. however, i w'd like to let u know, u r not alone who thinks like this and carries same questions in his mind. Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our literature is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around survival issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our knowledge easily. still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > other) ? > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > nector after sea-churning……….. > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > house) ? > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > sign) ? > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > day is more in comparison to night…… > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > small planet) has 20 years ? > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > apart? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > Universe. > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > deg. away). > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > with the above observation after going through my original > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > planets? > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > Universe, solar system. > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > my email sanatkumar_jain . It would be better to know > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > Damaging Society). > Sanat Kumar Jain > Gwalior > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > problems to moderator > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Sanatji, there is nothing about sentiment here - Astrology as taught by the sages is correct and near 100% accurate - However in the intervening period, there have been many things added/deleted and the original work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct the original astrology by testing out various principles. In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accurate predictions. I am against charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), charlatan books etc - But astrology is a science and art and it is upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science Regards Kiran Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > other) ? > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > nector after sea-churning……….. > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > house) ? > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > sign) ? > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > day is more in comparison to night…… > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > small planet) has 20 years ? > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > apart? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > Universe. > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > deg. away). > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > with the above observation after going through my original > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > planets? > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > Universe, solar system. > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > my email sanatkumar_jain . It would be better to know > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > Damaging Society). > Sanat Kumar Jain > Gwalior > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > problems to moderator > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Dear Sanatkumar, Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only recently declassified from that status, before you question the primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of astrological predictions. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum. At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ? Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning……….. 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ? Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ? Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night…… 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ? Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realise that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe. Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You can realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more about the book or description of various chapters then you may send email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% 20jain & TAG= & CID= http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away). To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on my email sanatkumar_jain (AT) rediffmail (DOT) com .. It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). Sanat Kumar Jain Gwalior Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating problems to moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Dear Mr. Sanat, Though i dont know much astrology, I m ready to enter into a debate with u, I take up this challange, I m sure of my win, as u have to defeat that's why god send u to this group, where u will have to face me. Dont run away from the ground and do more postings. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: > > Dear Sanatkumar, > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only > recently declassified from that status, before you question the > primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that > are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of > astrological predictions. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > sanat2221 wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning........... > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field........... > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar%> > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and > > http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > > my email sanatkumar_jain > > <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Dear Lalit Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your two mails. Though I avoid writing in groups because it is very difficult to handle the mails and sometimes arguments may heart feelings, which is not my intention. In first mail you want to assist me and stated " I will offer my life long assistance to you. " but in your second mail just after one hour you say " I take up this challange, I m sure of my win, as u have to defeat that's why god send u to this group, where u will have to face me. Dont run away from the ground " . It appears you are very much hearted with my blog. So let me clear first that I am neither interested in defeating you nor in defending myself on wrong footings. More over I do not want to disturb your day to day discussion, if every body is harping on the same tune. Hence I asked readers to write me directly on my email. Like others, you have not answered the queries but at one side you show your inability and stated that >>>Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our literature is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around survival issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our knowledge easily.<<<<< whereas on the other hand you say that >>>>still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. <<<< So if astrology is scientific then how you can say that " problem is blind guruism " and if " literature is not available containing the procedures " then how you can say that it is scienfic. But for your kind information non-availability of literature is only an escape route. Because in primitive age either there were stone carvings which is difficult to destroy and there were system of hearsay (shruitigyan) by which sages pass on the knowledge to next generation. Thus this knowledge is always safe in the brain of students (shishya). Knowledge of sages were well spreaded in south India, Mesopotamia, Greece etc. So don't take any escape route. Your statement that " we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around survival " is not only applicable to Indians but it is human nature who always want to survive and oppose any other view. Otherwise Galileo would not have been imprisoned for his views of solar system which was against the Bible (it is also against every religion), Or you would not have bombed me if my views are not against your views. Hence correct interpretation may be that most of us are not logical and only governed by age-old traditions without applying our minds and prepare to oppose for any view which is against our mindset. Your statement " we were never procedure oriented, we always concerned with end results " is totally right in my opinion because this is our tradition to believe sages, Brahmins, astrologers etc. who are convincing us with some result or with some false hopes. They created strong caste system and enabled a part of society for reading and questioning some thing. Thus unknowingly you are also following the same tradition and instead of being a procedure oriented to know as to whether astrology is scientific or not you are just saying " astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true. " How you can say " we dont want to share our knowledge easily. " . Teacher is always prepared to teach, parents always prepared to teach even our friends (if you want you can include me) are prepared to teach, and books who are our best friends are always prepared to teach us. But cunning business oriented astrologers are not prepared to disclose his secrets, as to how he is befooling some individuals with weak mentality. If their may be a slightest truth in predictive astrology then I would be the first man who may be happy, Because I am actually associated with this since long and I have even designed a horoscope which comprises all astrological principles in single horoscope (which is also given in my Book). So far your statement " it's predictions come true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. " is concerned, and you are not prepared to answer the questions raised in my blog, because if you will answer these questions then you can realize that astrology is science or not; then I will like to say that can you or any reader can decide about 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female. 2 When he / she will be married. 3 When he / she will be father / mother 4 When he / she will die. Because answers to these questions are absolute and other predictive answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof principle for any prediction then you can also intimate for further interaction. If readers have faith on some astrologer then they may ask him above 4 questions and/or 10 questions raised in my blog, or about the position of Rahu / Ketu then they will realize the truth. So far your statemet " you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you. " is concerned, I will like to say that I am associated with astrology since +35 years and after too much digging I find the procedures as to how all astrological principles were formulated along with many scientific concept, which have been included in my original books " Jyotish Kitna Sahi Kitna Galat " (Hindi) and " Astrology a science or myth " (English). Hence you need not to give life long assistance but it is more then enough if you go through the book. Yes I will like to add one more point that so far many astrologers and readers have gone through the book but non of them has ever intimated that he is not convinced with the factual position, but contrary to this every one praised the book, which is first book with such scientific analysis. Other reader may directly write on my email sanatkumar_jain, because I do not want to disturb your discussion, because when some one wants to be misguided then why I should worry. But it is my social duty to inform some truth, Because they are not aware with the otherside story, and it is up to them to decide, but definitely I am not interested in the business of defeating or defending. I am only interested in the Truth. What to say for " Though i dont know much astrology, I m ready to enter into a debate " . Though I don't think that you don't know astrology. But it is true that many innocent persons who really don't know about the astrology; prepared to discuss as to how some predictions turned to be true and so on without any counter arguments …………. Waiting for your comments. Thanks once again, Yours, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain (If you will allow then I will answer one by one to other mails also) Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " litsol " <litsol wrote: > > Dear Mr. Sanat, > > U deserve our regards, Thanx a lot for posting this mail to the > group. however, i w'd like to let u know, u r not alone who thinks > like this and carries same questions in his mind. > > Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our literature > is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we are a > irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around survival > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our > knowledge easily. > > still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. > > you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will offer my > life long assistance to you. > > regards, > Lalit. > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. > So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate > of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within > a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned > in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 > ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and > 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then > I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played > an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears > to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still > if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction > on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology > Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Respected Kiran Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your mail You said >>>>Astrology as taught by the sages is correct and near 100% accurate -<<<< If it is so then what was the need to find >>>>>original work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct the original astrology by testing out various principles.<<<<< Actually astrologers are riding on two horses and they are neither following the Indian (sages) knowledge nor scientific logic. Because If astrology is beneficial by the names of Indian sages then they take their shelter, whereas our sages has neither devised signs (Rashis) etc. nor they have concept of solar system. On the other hand when astrologer find it beneficial then they use modern scientific data in support of astrology to befool general public so that they may think that astrology is science. Whereas scientific data are quite against with the concept of our sages. Astrologers are actually using psychology, modern scientific data in the coverup of knowledge of sages, Ved etc.. Thus it appears that >>>>>In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accurate predictions.<<<< But actually it is not so. Because you can realize that if one principle is right (socalled) in one horoscope then same principle is not applicable in other horoscopes. Thus there is ample scope of manipulation according to the mindset of the client. It is psychology which is the reason behind so called correct prediction or any prediction can be right upto 50% as a general rule of permutation combination. If prediction is principle based then principles would have been fed in the computer to know all those predictions and any time correction can also be carried out within minutes. How you can be against >>>>> charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), charlatan books etc -<<<<< when they are applying the same principles of sages. Or can you identify a single astrologer who is rightly applying the principle. Whereas actually astrological principles are based on primitive knowledge of solar system without any scientific base. But it was inquisitive of our sages who wants to know future events with some method and they experimented with many principles and still astrologers are experimenting with ageold principles without knowing as to how they were formulated (which I asked through 10 questions in my blog) and procedure is included in my book. >>>>>astrology is a science and art and it is upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science<<<<< Actually astrology (predictive) is not a science but astronomy is science, which were studied by our sages and now it is being studied by NASA. Now our astrologers are busy in the business of prediction though they are not able to predict about themselves. Future generation is not going to learn astronomy but those innocents who have lost their self confidence or those who wants some short cut for success or they are being fed since childhood that astrology is correct and they have to trace a good astrologer (which they will never find) for prediction; will be after astrologer without knowing the actual fact. I will like to say that I am not against the knowledge of sages because during development process what best they could visualize they did but we are not that much devoted to learn some thing new. But we are only misguinding each other and thinking that we are praising our sages. Actually we must have proud on our heritage because it is our history, culture, civilization but at the same time we must remember that knowledge is not limited to our sages but learning is a continuous process and we must learn. Waiting for your comments. Rest in next. Thanks Yours, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " kiran.rama " <kiran.rama wrote: > > Sanatji, > > there is nothing about sentiment here - Astrology as taught by the > sages is correct and near 100% accurate - However in the intervening > period, there have been many things added/deleted and the original > work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct > the original astrology by testing out various principles. > > In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accurate > predictions. > > I am against charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), > charlatan books etc - But astrology is a science and art and it is > upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science > > Regards > Kiran > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hare Rama krsna Respected Sanat ji, namaskar. I would understand that most of the group are ardent believers/practitioners-amateur and professional and being so are convinced of what astrology is for them and what it offers. Don't you think you should try to 'convert' a totally different group, one that is still hesitant,waiting at the threshold, trying to test waters? Please desist from trying to divert focus away from astrology itself by this discussion as this group is working towards and ideal of educating people and all of them have agreed towards working towards it by joining the group. If your ideals are different, obviously so, why dont you try to form one of your own and work towards it instead of trying to wean away the 'infants from the mother' as you are now attempting to. Because it is the 'infants' that are the most gullible and prone to being led astray by extrinsic motivators as they are not very competent to judge what is good for them. I apologise if I have hurt you which was unintentional, Apologies to the group for a non astrological post, Regards Nalini sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jainVedic Astrologyandhealing Sent: Thursday, 29 November, 2007 6:46:49 AM[Vedic Astrologyandhealing] Re: Astrology a science or myth Respected Kiran Ji,Namaskar,Thanks for your mail You said>>>>Astrology as taught by thesages is correct and near 100% accurate -<<<<If it is so then what was the need to find >>>>>originalwork of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstructthe original astrology by testing out various principles.< <<<<Actually astrologers are riding on two horses and they are neither following the Indian (sages) knowledge nor scientific logic. Because If astrology is beneficial by the names of Indian sages then they take their shelter, whereas our sages has neither devised signs (Rashis) etc. nor they have concept of solar system. On the other hand when astrologer find it beneficial then they use modern scientific data in support of astrology to befool general public so that they may think that astrology is science. Whereas scientific data are quite against with the concept of our sages. Astrologers are actually using psychology, modern scientific data in the coverup of knowledge of sages, Ved etc.. Thus it appears that >>>>>In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accuratepredictions. <<<<But actually it is not so. Because you can realize that if one principle is right (socalled) in one horoscope then same principle is not applicable in other horoscopes. Thus there is ample scope of manipulation according to the mindset of the client. It is psychology which is the reason behind so called correct prediction or any prediction can be right upto 50% as a general rule of permutation combination. If prediction is principle based then principles would have been fed in the computer to know all those predictions and any time correction can also be carried out within minutes.How you can be against >>>>> charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), charlatan books etc -<<<<<when they are applying the same principles of sages. Or can you identify a single astrologer who is rightly applying the principle. Whereas actually astrological principles are based on primitive knowledge of solar system without any scientific base. But it was inquisitive of our sages who wants to know future events with some method and they experimented with many principles and still astrologers are experimenting with ageold principles without knowing as to how they were formulated (which I asked through 10 questions in my blog) and procedure is included in my book.>>>>>astrology is a science and art and it isupto us and future generations in India to learn this great science<<<<<Actually astrology (predictive) is not a science but astronomy is science, which were studied by our sages and now it is being studied by NASA. Now our astrologers are busy in the business of prediction though they are not able to predict about themselves. Future generation is not going to learn astronomy but those innocents who have lost their self confidence or those who wants some short cut for success or they are being fed since childhood that astrology is correct and they have to trace a good astrologer (which they will never find) for prediction; will be after astrologer without knowing the actual fact.I will like to say that I am not against the knowledge of sages because during development process what best they could visualize they did but we are not that much devoted to learn some thing new. But we are only misguinding each other and thinking that we are praising our sages. Actually we must have proud on our heritage because it is our history, culture, civilization but at the same time we must remember that knowledge is not limited to our sages but learning is a continuous process and we must learn.Waiting for your comments. Rest in next.ThanksYours,SanatSanatkumar_jain@ rediffmail. comVedic Astrologyandhe aling@ s.com, "kiran.rama" <kiran.rama@ ...> wrote:>> Sanatji,> > there is nothing about sentiment here - Astrology as taught by the> sages is correct and near 100% accurate - However in the intervening> period, there have been many things added/deleted and the original> work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct> the original astrology by testing out various principles.> > In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accurate> predictions.> > I am against charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are),> charlatan books etc - But astrology is a science and art and it is> upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science> > Regards> Kiran> > > Vedic Astrologyandhe aling@ s.com, "sanat2221" > > <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote:> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum.> > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu.> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system.> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara).> > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?> > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on……….> > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ?> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning………..> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ?> > Based on the position of army in the battle field………..> > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ?> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night……> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ?> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?> > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures……….> > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away…..> > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart?> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….> > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe.> > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish -> > Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do?produktID=1759836> > > > http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? AUB=sanat%20kumar%> > 20jain & TAG= & CID=> > > > http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx?> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t> > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away).> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3-> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them.> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre-> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre-> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre-> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets?> > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi. org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system.> > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > > Damaging Society).> > Sanat Kumar Jain> > Gwalior> > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator> >>Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Dear Mr. Sanat, How old u r ? Why dont u understand if there is no good library of physics in a university, doesnt mean physics is not a science. Same way, like u know, nuclear bomb can be made, do u know procedures? can u make one nuclear bomb ... u cant, does it enable u to say nuclear bombs are not real, not scientific product. now, think of a pilot, who gets already made nuclear bombs, flies his aircraft and finally hits the target, he is not concerned with procedure of making the nuclear bombs, we who are in astrology, majorly like such a pilot, we have got principles made by sages and now using them, how sages made these principles, unfortunately, not available to us. In my first mail, I offered my assistance to you if u r positive, and if u devote urself to rediscover forgotten procedures. I didnt read last para of ur mail where u have written AIDS..etc.. In the second mail, is after understaing ur psychology , u r not for descovering, rather, u have made ur ignorance ur asset and propogating that, If u want to understand what astrology is and how scientific it is, u should learn it, u should have an experince of it. regarding the win and defeat, I challanged u, if u have a malific interest to defame astrology, I m very good in logic and i speak for the truth only, honest in my vision therefore,i m capable of giving u a lesson. but if u r too honest to check what astrololgy, my help with respect is always there for u. I m not a person who avoids debates. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > Dear Lalit Ji, > Namaskar, > Thanks for your two mails. > Though I avoid writing in groups because it is very difficult to > handle the mails and sometimes arguments may heart feelings, which is > not my intention. > > In first mail you want to assist me and stated " I will offer my life > long assistance to you. " but in your second mail just after one hour > you > say " I take up this challange, I m sure of my win, as u have to > defeat that's why god send u to this group, where u will have to face > me. Dont run away from the ground " . > > It appears you are very much hearted with my blog. So let me clear > first that I am neither interested in defeating you nor in defending > myself on wrong footings. More over I do not want to disturb your > day to day discussion, if every body is harping on the same tune. > Hence I asked readers to write me directly on my email. > > Like others, you have not answered the queries but at one side you > show your inability and stated that > > >>>Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > literature is not available containing the procedures,third problem > is we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves > around survival > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our > knowledge easily.<<<<< > > whereas on the other hand you say that > > >>>>still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. <<<< > > So if astrology is scientific then how you can say that " problem is > blind guruism " and if " literature is not available containing the > procedures " then how you can say that it is scienfic. But for your > kind information non-availability of literature is only an escape > route. Because in primitive age either there were stone carvings > which is difficult to destroy and there were system of hearsay > (shruitigyan) by which sages pass on the knowledge to next > generation. Thus this knowledge is always safe in the brain of > students (shishya). Knowledge of sages were well spreaded in south > India, Mesopotamia, Greece etc. So don't take any escape route. > > Your statement that " we are a irresponsible selfish community whose > life revolves around survival " is not only applicable to Indians > but it is human nature who always want to survive and oppose any > other view. Otherwise Galileo would not have been imprisoned for > his views of solar system which was against the Bible (it is also > against every religion), Or you would not have bombed me if my views > are not against your views. Hence correct interpretation may be > that most of us are not logical and only governed by age-old > traditions without applying our minds and prepare to oppose for any > view which is against our mindset. > > Your statement " we were never procedure oriented, we always concerned > with end results " is totally right in my opinion because this is our > tradition to believe sages, Brahmins, astrologers etc. who are > convincing us with some result or with some false hopes. They created > strong caste system and enabled a part of society for reading and > questioning some thing. Thus unknowingly you are also following the > same tradition and instead of being a procedure oriented to know as > to whether astrology is scientific or not you are just > saying " astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > true. " > > How you can say " we dont want to share our knowledge easily. " . > Teacher is always prepared to teach, parents always prepared to teach > even our friends (if you want you can include me) are prepared to > teach, and books who are our best friends are always prepared to > teach us. But cunning business oriented astrologers are not prepared > to disclose his secrets, as to how he is befooling some individuals > with weak mentality. > > If their may be a slightest truth in predictive astrology then I > would be the first man who may be happy, Because I am actually > associated with this since long and I have even designed a horoscope > which comprises all astrological principles in single horoscope > (which is also given in my Book). > > > So far your statement " it's predictions come true > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. " is > concerned, and you are not prepared to answer the questions raised > in my blog, because if you will answer these questions then you can > realize that astrology is science or not; then I will like to say > that can you or any reader can decide about > > 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female. > 2 When he / she will be married. > 3 When he / she will be father / mother > 4 When he / she will die. > > Because answers to these questions are absolute and other predictive > answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and > secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is > governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof principle > for any prediction then you can also intimate for further > interaction. If readers have faith on some astrologer then they may > ask him above 4 questions and/or 10 questions raised in my blog, or > about the position of Rahu / Ketu then they will realize the truth. > > So far your statemet " you should do some work to find out these > procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you. " is > concerned, I will like to say that I am associated with astrology > since +35 years and after too much digging I find the procedures as > to how all astrological principles were formulated along with many > scientific concept, which have been included in my original > books " Jyotish Kitna Sahi Kitna Galat " (Hindi) and " Astrology a > science or myth " (English). Hence you need not to give life long > assistance but it is more then enough if you go through the book. > > Yes I will like to add one more point that so far many astrologers > and readers have gone through the book but non of them has ever > intimated that he is not convinced with the factual position, but > contrary to this every one praised the book, which is first book with > such scientific analysis. > > Other reader may directly write on my email > sanatkumar_jain, because I do not want to disturb your > discussion, because when some one wants to be misguided then why I > should worry. But it is my social duty to inform some truth, Because > they are not aware with the otherside story, and it is up to them to > decide, but definitely I am not interested in the business of > defeating or defending. I am only interested in the Truth. > > What to say for " Though i dont know much astrology, I m ready to > enter into a debate " . Though I don't think that you don't know > astrology. But it is true that many innocent persons who really don't > know about the astrology; prepared to discuss as to how some > predictions turned to be true and so on without any counter arguments > …………. > > > Waiting for your comments. Thanks once again, > > Yours, > > > Sanat > Sanatkumar_jain > > (If you will allow then I will answer one by one to other mails also) > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " litsol " > <litsol@> wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Sanat, > > > > U deserve our regards, Thanx a lot for posting this mail to the > > group. however, i w'd like to let u know, u r not alone who thinks > > like this and carries same questions in his mind. > > > > Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > literature > > is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we are > a > > irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around survival > > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our > > knowledge easily. > > > > still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > true > > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. > > > > you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will offer > my > > life long assistance to you. > > > > regards, > > Lalit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > > depth > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > this. > > So > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > whether > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > to > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want > to > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > > examine > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > have > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > > in > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > > the > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > > you > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call > an > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > religious > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > Moon, > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > > sages > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > > predict > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > grabbing > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > > etc. > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > still > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > everybody > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > it > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > of > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > fate > > of > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > sages > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > principles > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > percolated > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > were > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > > system. > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > fit > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > within > > a > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > etc., > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > astrological > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > > come > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > self > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > mislead, > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > > that > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > > But > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > > level > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > following > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > subpara). > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > > each > > > other) ? > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > > quarter > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > seventh > > > house) ? > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > and > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > > sign) ? > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > the > > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > > of > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > > (a > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > > between > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > structure > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > deg. > > > apart? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > Universe. > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > old > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > > beyond > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > astrology > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination > is > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > concept > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > of > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > > of > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > > the > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > > basis > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages > to > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > English > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face > of > > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know > more > > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may > send > > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > 20kumar% > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > > they > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > > of > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > > concept > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > mentioned > > in > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within > 14 > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > > nobody > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > > Sun, > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > > on > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > > Ketu > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > 1988 > > ( > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > eclipses > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > > deg. > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > > 76.49 > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > 15.14 > > > deg. away). > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > also > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > the > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > not > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > > myth). > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > Moon > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > > As > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > and > > 3- > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > solar > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > > eclipses > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > > degree > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > > Thus > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > > All > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > fundamental > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > then > > I > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > > them. > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > in > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > played > > an > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > > immense > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > appears > > to > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > agree > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > was > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > > do > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > > pre- > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > > then > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > cascading > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > > Tom, > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > deed > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > > You > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > never > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > prewritten) > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > > but > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can > be > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > planets? > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > > that > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > astronomy > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > correct. > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > Still > > if > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > James > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > > of > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > regard > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information > of > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further > interaction > > on > > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling > in > > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > (Astrology > > Is > > > Damaging Society). > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > Gwalior > > > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > > problems to moderator > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Dear nalini, In this group, we few people have not taken astrology as our profession, it's not our bread and butter. we are doing good in our chosen domain of profession and few of us have done really good. And even if some one has chosen astrology as his profession, what's wrong in that, he is getting results and helping people, he charges something for his service, what's wrong in that ? both the things doesnt mean, we are biased, in fact, instead of putting ur logic/finding, pls. dont begin blaming, that w'd mean u urself is biased, come for a honest discussion, we are exploring astrology and want to make it more useful for the entire mankind. we will help u also if u want to know about urself provided u r truthful. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , nalini swamy <nalini2818 wrote: > > Hare Rama krsna > Respected Sanat ji, > namaskar. > I would understand that most of the group are ardent believers/practitioners-amateur and professional and being so are convinced of what astrology is for them and what it offers. Don't you think you should try to 'convert' a totally different group, one that is still hesitant,waiting at the threshold, trying to test waters? > Please desist from trying to divert focus away from astrology itself by this discussion as this group is working towards and ideal of educating people and all of them have agreed towards working towards it by joining the group. > If your ideals are different, obviously so, why dont you try to form one of your own and work towards it instead of trying to wean away the 'infants from the mother' as you are now attempting to. Because it is the 'infants' that are the most gullible and prone to being led astray by extrinsic motivators as they are not very competent to judge what is good for them. > I apologise if I have hurt you which was unintentional, > Apologies to the group for a non astrological post, > Regards > Nalini > > > > > sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain > Vedic Astrologyandhealing > Thursday, 29 November, 2007 6:46:49 AM > [Vedic Astrologyandhealing] Re: Astrology a science or myth > > Respected Kiran Ji, > Namaskar, > Thanks for your mail > You said > >>>>Astrology as taught by the > sages is correct and near 100% accurate -<<<< > > If it is so then what was the need to find > > >>>>>original > work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct > the original astrology by testing out various principles.< <<<< > > Actually astrologers are riding on two horses and they are neither > following the Indian (sages) knowledge nor scientific logic. Because > If astrology is beneficial by the names of Indian sages then they > take their shelter, whereas our sages has neither devised signs > (Rashis) etc. nor they have concept of solar system. On the other > hand when astrologer find it beneficial then they use modern > scientific data in support of astrology to befool general public so > that they may think that astrology is science. Whereas scientific > data are quite against with the concept of our sages. Astrologers are > actually using psychology, modern scientific data in the coverup of > knowledge of sages, Ved etc.. Thus it appears that > > >>>>>In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% > accurate > predictions. <<<< > > But actually it is not so. Because you can realize that if one > principle is right (socalled) in one horoscope then same principle is > not applicable in other horoscopes. Thus there is ample scope of > manipulation according to the mindset of the client. It is psychology > which is the reason behind so called correct prediction or any > prediction can be right upto 50% as a general rule of permutation > combination. If prediction is principle based then principles would > have been fed in the computer to know all those predictions and any > time correction can also be carried out within minutes. > > How you can be against > > >>>>> charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), > charlatan books etc -<<<<< > > when they are applying the same principles of sages. Or can you > identify a single astrologer who is rightly applying the principle. > Whereas actually astrological principles are based on primitive > knowledge of solar system without any scientific base. But it was > inquisitive of our sages who wants to know future events with some > method and they experimented with many principles and still > astrologers are experimenting with ageold principles without knowing > as to how they were formulated (which I asked through 10 questions in > my blog) and procedure is included in my book. > > >>>>>astrology is a science and art and it is > upto us and future generations in India to learn this great > science<<<<< > > Actually astrology (predictive) is not a science but astronomy is > science, which were studied by our sages and now it is being > studied by NASA. Now our astrologers are busy in the business of > prediction though they are not able to predict about themselves. > Future generation is not going to learn astronomy but those innocents > who have lost their self confidence or those who wants some short cut > for success or they are being fed since childhood that astrology is > correct and they have to trace a good astrologer (which they will > never find) for prediction; will be after astrologer without knowing > the actual fact. > > I will like to say that I am not against the knowledge of sages > because during development process what best they could visualize > they did but we are not that much devoted to learn some thing new. > But we are only misguinding each other and thinking that we are > praising our sages. Actually we must have proud on our heritage > because it is our history, culture, civilization but at the same > time we must remember that knowledge is not limited to our sages but > learning is a continuous process and we must learn. > > Waiting for your comments. Rest in next. > Thanks > > Yours, > > Sanat > Sanatkumar_jain@ rediffmail. com > > Vedic Astrologyandhe aling@ s.com, " kiran.rama " > <kiran.rama@ ...> wrote: > > > > Sanatji, > > > > there is nothing about sentiment here - Astrology as taught by the > > sages is correct and near 100% accurate - However in the intervening > > period, there have been many things added/deleted and the original > > work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct > > the original astrology by testing out various principles. > > > > In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% > accurate > > predictions. > > > > I am against charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today > are), > > charlatan books etc - But astrology is a science and art and it is > > upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science > > > > Regards > > Kiran > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhe aling@ s.com, " sanat2221 " > > > > <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote: > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > this. So > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > whether > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > to > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want > to > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > have > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call > an > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > Moon, > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > grabbing > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > still > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > it > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > of > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > fate of > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > sages > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > were > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > fit > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > within a > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > etc., > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > self > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > mislead, > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, Vinshottary > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > subpara). > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > > other) ? > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > seventh > > > house) ? > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > and > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > > sign) ? > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > the > > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > structure > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > deg. > > > apart? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > Universe. > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > old > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination > is > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > concept > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > of > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages > to > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > English > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face > of > > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know > more > > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may > send > > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do? > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? AUB=sanat% > 20kumar% > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx? > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > mentioned in > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within > 14 > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > 1988 ( > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > eclipses > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > 15.14 > > > deg. away). > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > also > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > the > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > not > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > Moon > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > and 3- > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > solar > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > fundamental > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > then I > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > in > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > played an > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > > faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive astrology > appears to > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > agree > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > was > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > deed > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > never > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can > be > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > planets? > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > Still if > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > James > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi. org Because modern > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > regard > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information > of > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further > interaction on > > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling > in > > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > (Astrology Is > > > Damaging Society). > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > Gwalior > > > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > > problems to moderator > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Aavesh Ji, Namaskaar, I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. Sanat. He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct debate for last more than two years. First time he met the people, who are open to him for any debate, let's give him a chance to correct himself. I also look forward to you to give ur views on suggestions given by R.K Das, let's do something fruitful and concrete for making astrology more acceptable and out of doubts. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , aavesh t <aavesh_s wrote: > > > Dear Lalit, > > I had posted the mail appended below to Mr Sanat. > > I have not recieved any reply till date (I doubt if it is going to come at all) > > It has become a fashion these days to criticise Jyotish to stay in the news.These jokers do not know the ABC of Jyotish and they pose as rationalists > > These same people go to Jyotishis when their daughter's marriages are delayed and they cannot find a match inspite of their best efforts (to quote an example) > > This attitude is really sickening (to put it mildly) > > Sorry for this strong mail but when somebody takes potshots at Jyotish just for scoring brownie points I just can't take it lying down !! > > Regards, > > aavesh > > > > aavesh t <aavesh_s wrote: > Dear Mr Sanat Kumar, > > You have made a series of arguments against Jyotish > > One question:What is your experience in Jyotish ?? > > Have you studied any of the ancient Jyotish texts like BPHS,Saravali,Jataka Parijata,Brihat Samhita and Garga Hora (to name a few) > > How many charts have you read and what is your level of accuracy ??(If you a serious Jyotishi I am sure that you must be maintaining a data base of predictions) > > If you are able to answer at least two of the above questions in the affirmative then we can discuss the matter further > > Regards, > > aavesh > > > > > Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: > Dear Sanatkumar, > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only recently declassified from that status, before you question the primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of astrological predictions. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > other) ? > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > nector after sea-churning……….. > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > house) ? > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > sign) ? > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > day is more in comparison to night…… > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > small planet) has 20 years ? > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > apart? > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > Universe. > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > deg. away). > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > with the above observation after going through my original > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > planets? > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > Universe, solar system. > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > my email sanatkumar_jain . It would be better to know > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > Damaging Society). > Sanat Kumar Jain > Gwalior > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > problems to moderator > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to know how. > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Dear Lalitji, Let us make counter-arguments to what Sanat says - which will prove his statements wrong - I am with you on this. At the same time, let us respect Sanatji and not make personal attack on him. People are entitled to their views. That reason, I respect Sanatji. Sanatji, My 2 cents on software: You use it for calculation and software does not give predictions. The jyotish makes predictions. I will answer some of your queries and request Lalitji, Aveshji, Chandrashekarji, Sushilji to counter you. 1. 12 signs were made dividing the zodiac into parts. This helps in making the chart during the time that you were born. I ask you a question: Why were you born on a particular date or time? It is because life has a purpose and that purpose is determined by prior karma. The planetary positions help indicate that. 2. Friendship/Enemity between planets is a concept. Astrology has some root in tantra and the divine sages saw it during meditation. How come Parasara could write Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra using complex Sanskrit that we in Kaliyug cannot even translate properly? Sages had divine powers and more intelligent than us. Let us accept that Sanatji, Don't debate principles that are based on practical research. What are axioms and postulates in geometry? They are accepted as true. Sushilji, pls. add Regards Kiran Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " litsol " <litsol wrote: > > Aavesh Ji, > > Namaskaar, I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. > Sanat. He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct > debate for last more than two years. > > First time he met the people, who are open to him for any debate, > let's give him a chance to correct himself. > > I also look forward to you to give ur views on suggestions given by > R.K Das, let's do something fruitful and concrete for making > astrology more acceptable and out of doubts. > > regards, > Lalit. > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , aavesh t > <aavesh_s@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > I had posted the mail appended below to Mr Sanat. > > > > I have not recieved any reply till date (I doubt if it is going > to come at all) > > > > It has become a fashion these days to criticise Jyotish to stay > in the news.These jokers do not know the ABC of Jyotish and they pose > as rationalists > > > > These same people go to Jyotishis when their daughter's marriages > are delayed and they cannot find a match inspite of their best > efforts (to quote an example) > > > > This attitude is really sickening (to put it mildly) > > > > Sorry for this strong mail but when somebody takes potshots at > Jyotish just for scoring brownie points I just can't take it lying > down !! > > > > Regards, > > > > aavesh > > > > > > > > aavesh t <aavesh_s@> wrote: > > Dear Mr Sanat Kumar, > > > > You have made a series of arguments against Jyotish > > > > One question:What is your experience in Jyotish ?? > > > > Have you studied any of the ancient Jyotish texts like > BPHS,Saravali,Jataka Parijata,Brihat Samhita and Garga Hora (to name > a few) > > > > How many charts have you read and what is your level of > accuracy ??(If you a serious Jyotishi I am sure that you must be > maintaining a data base of predictions) > > > > If you are able to answer at least two of the above questions in > the affirmative then we can discuss the matter further > > > > Regards, > > > > aavesh > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar@> wrote: > > Dear Sanatkumar, > > > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and > only recently declassified from that status, before you question the > primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, > that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new > methods of astrological predictions. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. > So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate > of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within > a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned > in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 > ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and > 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then > I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played > an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears > to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still > if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction > on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology > Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to > know how. > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Dear Chandrashekhar. Thanks for your mail. Though you have not replied the points raised in my blog. But you raised question about Pluto. I think either you are not aware with the circumstances as to why it was treated as planet and why removed from the group or you are checking my knowledge. So let me first gave short answer to your question. It was concept in the Primitive age that every movable body among the fixed stars is planet. On the basis of the then knowledge and experience Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were treated as planets. Remember Sun and Moon was treated as planets by our sages and not a star or satellite, which astrologers are now propagating in the name of astrology. On the basis of this definition an orbiting body Uranus found by William Herschel in 1781 was known as a planet. In continuity of this discovery, Ceres planet discovered followed by discoveries of Pallas, Juno, Vesta, Astraea, Neptune. Clyde Tom Baugh discovered Pluto planet (diameter 2320 km) on 13-3-1930 in the Kuiper belt, In 2005, Brown discovered 2003UB313, which was bigger then Pluto and it was thought to have a proper definition of planet. Remember that none of these planets were discovered by the astrologers of India, because all of them were busy in befooling the general public in the name of forecast and only on the good name of sages. It was defined in 2006 by the union of 9000 astronomers that any moving body will be planet if it has cleared other small bodies around its orbit. Some planets have not cleared this third condition hence Pluto including Ceres, Pallas, Charon, Quaoar, Sedna, Jena etc. bodies could not be treated as planet and another category of Dwarf planet other then star, planet, satellite was created to accommodate all these orbiting bodies. Now Pluto is known as Dwarf planet number 134340. Now according to new definition Sun has eight planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune). So will you please come forward and intimate me as to when are you and other astrologers are going to use Uranus & Neptune in Vinshottary dasha, exalted, friendship etc. again in the name of sages. I think I have given a short brief about the Pluto. Now I am sure that you will like to answer my blog point wise. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: > > Dear Sanatkumar, > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only > recently declassified from that status, before you question the > primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that > are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of > astrological predictions. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > sanat2221 wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning........... > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field........... > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar%> > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and > > http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > > my email sanatkumar_jain > > <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 dear sanat, when u will speak to me... i m very eager to settle scores with u by using ur own logic. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > Dear Chandrashekhar. > Thanks for your mail. > Though you have not replied the points raised in my blog. But you > raised question about Pluto. > I think either you are not aware with the circumstances as to why it > was treated as planet and why removed from the group or you are > checking my knowledge. So let me first gave short answer to your > question. > > It was concept in the Primitive age that every movable body among the > fixed stars is planet. On the basis of the then knowledge and > experience Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were > treated as planets. Remember Sun and Moon was treated as planets by > our sages and not a star or satellite, which astrologers are now > propagating in the name of astrology. > > On the basis of this definition an orbiting body Uranus found by > William Herschel in 1781 was known as a planet. In continuity of this > discovery, Ceres planet discovered followed by discoveries of Pallas, > Juno, Vesta, Astraea, Neptune. Clyde Tom Baugh discovered Pluto > planet (diameter 2320 km) on 13-3-1930 in the Kuiper belt, In 2005, > Brown discovered 2003UB313, which was bigger then Pluto and it was > thought to have a proper definition of planet. Remember that none of > these planets were discovered by the astrologers of India, because > all of them were busy in befooling the general public in the name of > forecast and only on the good name of sages. > > It was defined in 2006 by the union of 9000 astronomers that any > moving body will be planet if it has cleared other small bodies > around its orbit. Some planets have not cleared this third condition > hence Pluto including Ceres, Pallas, Charon, Quaoar, Sedna, Jena etc. > bodies could not be treated as planet and another category of Dwarf > planet other then star, planet, satellite was created to accommodate > all these orbiting bodies. Now Pluto is known as Dwarf planet number > 134340. Now according to new definition Sun has eight planets > (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune). > So will you please come forward and intimate me as to when are you > and other astrologers are going to use Uranus & Neptune in > Vinshottary dasha, exalted, friendship etc. again in the name of > sages. > > I think I have given a short brief about the Pluto. Now I am sure > that you will like to answer my blog point wise. > > Thanks, > > Sanat > Sanatkumar_jain > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar > <sharma.chandrashekhar@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sanatkumar, > > > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > > classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and > only > > recently declassified from that status, before you question the > > primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, > that > > are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods > of > > astrological predictions. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > sanat2221 wrote: > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > this. So > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > whether > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > to > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > Moon, > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > grabbing > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > still > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > it > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > of > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > fate of > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > sages > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > within a > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > subpara). > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > > other) ? > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > > nector after sea-churning........... > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > seventh > > > house) ? > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field........... > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > and > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > > sign) ? > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > structure > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > deg. > > > apart? > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > Universe. > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > of > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > English > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face > of > > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may > send > > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > produktID=1759836 > > > <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > 20kumar% > > > <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > 20kumar%> > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > mentioned in > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > 1988 ( > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > > deg. away). > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > the > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > and 3- > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > solar > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > then I > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > in > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > played an > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > appears to > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > agree > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > was > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > deed > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > never > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > planets? > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > Still if > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further > interaction on > > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to > know > > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > (Astrology Is > > > Damaging Society). > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > Gwalior > > > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > > problems to moderator > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Dear Kiran, I would not want my energies to be wasted in answering Sanat, as he has not yet answered my previous query. He wants to know the principles behind certain nomenclature and their order (like names of week days) but does not seem to be interested to read astrological books that give the reason very clearly. He appears to be more keen on pushing his book than in making statements worth responding to. Take care, Chandrashekhar. kiran.rama wrote: Dear Lalitji, Let us make counter-arguments to what Sanat says - which will prove his statements wrong - I am with you on this. At the same time, let us respect Sanatji and not make personal attack on him. People are entitled to their views. That reason, I respect Sanatji. Sanatji, My 2 cents on software: You use it for calculation and software does not give predictions. The jyotish makes predictions. I will answer some of your queries and request Lalitji, Aveshji, Chandrashekarji, Sushilji to counter you. 1. 12 signs were made dividing the zodiac into parts. This helps in making the chart during the time that you were born. I ask you a question: Why were you born on a particular date or time? It is because life has a purpose and that purpose is determined by prior karma. The planetary positions help indicate that. 2. Friendship/Enemity between planets is a concept. Astrology has some root in tantra and the divine sages saw it during meditation. How come Parasara could write Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra using complex Sanskrit that we in Kaliyug cannot even translate properly? Sages had divine powers and more intelligent than us. Let us accept that Sanatji, Don't debate principles that are based on practical research. What are axioms and postulates in geometry? They are accepted as true. Sushilji, pls. add Regards Kiran Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "litsol" <litsol wrote: Aavesh Ji, Namaskaar, I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. Sanat. He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct debate for last more than two years. First time he met the people, who are open to him for any debate, let's give him a chance to correct himself. I also look forward to you to give ur views on suggestions given by R.K Das, let's do something fruitful and concrete for making astrology more acceptable and out of doubts. regards, Lalit. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , aavesh t <aavesh_s@> wrote: Dear Lalit, I had posted the mail appended below to Mr Sanat. I have not recieved any reply till date (I doubt if it is going to come at all) It has become a fashion these days to criticise Jyotish to stay in the news.These jokers do not know the ABC of Jyotish and they pose as rationalists These same people go to Jyotishis when their daughter's marriages are delayed and they cannot find a match inspite of their best efforts (to quote an example) This attitude is really sickening (to put it mildly) Sorry for this strong mail but when somebody takes potshots at Jyotish just for scoring brownie points I just can't take it lying down !! Regards, aavesh aavesh t <aavesh_s@> wrote: Dear Mr Sanat Kumar, You have made a series of arguments against Jyotish One question:What is your experience in Jyotish ?? Have you studied any of the ancient Jyotish texts like BPHS,Saravali,Jataka Parijata,Brihat Samhita and Garga Hora (to name a few) How many charts have you read and what is your level of accuracy ??(If you a serious Jyotishi I am sure that you must be maintaining a data base of predictions) If you are able to answer at least two of the above questions in the affirmative then we can discuss the matter further Regards, aavesh Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar@> wrote: Dear Sanatkumar, Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only recently declassified from that status, before you question the primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of astrological predictions. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum. At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ? Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning……….. 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ? Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ? Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night…… 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ? Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realise that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe. Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You can realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more about the book or description of various chapters then you may send email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% 20jain & TAG= & CID= http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away). To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). Sanat Kumar Jain Gwalior Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating problems to moderator Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. 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Guest guest Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Vedic Astrologyandhealing , aavesh t <aavesh_s wrote: > > Dear Lalit, > > Nice to get your response on my mail. > > My responses (in bold for purpose of clarity) > > > I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. Sanat. He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct debate for last more than two years. > > I AM NOT IN THE LEAST SURPRISED AT THIS FACT !! > > THIS CHAP IS PRETENDING TO BE A INTELLECTUAL (WHEN IN REALITY HE DOES NOT EVEN POSSESS A MODICUM OF JYOTISH KNOWLEDGE) > > I RESPECT PEOPLE LIKE SIR ISSAC NEWTON. > > ONCE WHEN SOMEBODY WAS CRITICISING ASTROLOGY IN HIS PRESENCE HE ASKED THE PERSON 'HAVE YOU STUDIED THE SCIENCE' ?? > > THIS SHOWS HIS GREATNESS (INCIDENTALLY NEWTON WAS A GREAT BELIEVER IN ASTROLOGY) > > > First time he met the people, who are open to him for any debate, > let's give him a chance to correct himself. > > YOU ARE WELCOME TO HUMOUR HIM. > > AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE MAIL WHICH I WROTE TO HIM WILL BE THE LAST FROM MY SIDE. > > I WOULD RATHER DEVOTE MY LIMITED SPARE TIME IN HELPING PEOPLE THROUGH JYOTISH (IN WHATEVER CAPACITY I CAN) > > I also look forward to you to give ur views on suggestions given by > R.K Das, let's do something fruitful and concrete for making > astrology more acceptable and out of doubts. > > WELL SAID > > I WILL TRY MY BEST TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DISCUSSIONS (SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY OF TIME) > > Cheers, > > aavesh > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , aavesh t > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > I had posted the mail appended below to Mr Sanat. > > > > I have not recieved any reply till date (I doubt if it is going > to come at all) > > > > It has become a fashion these days to criticise Jyotish to stay > in the news.These jokers do not know the ABC of Jyotish and they pose > as rationalists > > > > These same people go to Jyotishis when their daughter's marriages > are delayed and they cannot find a match inspite of their best > efforts (to quote an example) > > > > This attitude is really sickening (to put it mildly) > > > > Sorry for this strong mail but when somebody takes potshots at > Jyotish just for scoring brownie points I just can't take it lying > down !! > > > > Regards, > > > > aavesh > > > > > > Dear Aavesh, I think you have not gone through my blog and just after reading 2-3 paras, you have formed a view. I am again quoting the relavant para which itself give the answer to your questions. >>>>> I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles.<<<<<<<<<< It would have been better if you try to find the answer of my questions and why Rahu / Ketu is not there at the time of eclipse……….and so on…….. Do not bother about the knowledge of sages. They were quite right with reference to the then knowledge and concept. I hope instead of wasting time in cross arguments it would be better if you or any other reader / astrologer may come forward with some scientific reply. He can directly write on my email sanatkumar_jain Thanks sanat (Don't worry I will reply every question if it is there. but one by one. I am not like you to give sweeping reply without even reading the blog.) > > aavesh t wrote: > > Dear Mr Sanat Kumar, > > > > You have made a series of arguments against Jyotish > > > > One question:What is your experience in Jyotish ?? > > > > Have you studied any of the ancient Jyotish texts like > BPHS,Saravali,Jataka Parijata,Brihat Samhita and Garga Hora (to name > a few) > > > > How many charts have you read and what is your level of > accuracy ??(If you a serious Jyotishi I am sure that you must be > maintaining a data base of predictions) > > > > If you are able to answer at least two of the above questions in > the affirmative then we can discuss the matter further > > > > Regards, > > > > aavesh > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar wrote: > > Dear Sanatkumar, > > > > Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and > only recently declassified from that status, before you question the > primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, > that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new > methods of astrological predictions. > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. > So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate > of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within > a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned > in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 > ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and > 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then > I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played > an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears > to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still > if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction > on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology > Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chat on a cool, new interface. No download required. > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to > know how. > > > > > > > > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dear Sanat, It is interesting that, in your opinion, though the modern day scientists that you adore so much, change the definition of what in their view should be termed a planet, their views are to be taken as sacrosanct. However if the sages have not changed their views of what should be the definition of graha, for thousands of years, are to be called primitive. I do not want to enter in to mere semantics but there is a difference in the way planet is defined by western astronomers and the manner in which a graha is defined by the sages who laid the foundation of Jyotish. Since you assume the two to be identical, not much purpose will be served in answering your blog in the way of advancing the knowledge of astrology which is the purpose of this list. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: Dear Chandrashekhar. Thanks for your mail. Though you have not replied the points raised in my blog. But you raised question about Pluto. I think either you are not aware with the circumstances as to why it was treated as planet and why removed from the group or you are checking my knowledge. So let me first gave short answer to your question. It was concept in the Primitive age that every movable body among the fixed stars is planet. On the basis of the then knowledge and experience Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were treated as planets. Remember Sun and Moon was treated as planets by our sages and not a star or satellite, which astrologers are now propagating in the name of astrology. On the basis of this definition an orbiting body Uranus found by William Herschel in 1781 was known as a planet. In continuity of this discovery, Ceres planet discovered followed by discoveries of Pallas, Juno, Vesta, Astraea, Neptune. Clyde Tom Baugh discovered Pluto planet (diameter 2320 km) on 13-3-1930 in the Kuiper belt, In 2005, Brown discovered 2003UB313, which was bigger then Pluto and it was thought to have a proper definition of planet. Remember that none of these planets were discovered by the astrologers of India, because all of them were busy in befooling the general public in the name of forecast and only on the good name of sages. It was defined in 2006 by the union of 9000 astronomers that any moving body will be planet if it has cleared other small bodies around its orbit. Some planets have not cleared this third condition hence Pluto including Ceres, Pallas, Charon, Quaoar, Sedna, Jena etc. bodies could not be treated as planet and another category of Dwarf planet other then star, planet, satellite was created to accommodate all these orbiting bodies. Now Pluto is known as Dwarf planet number 134340. Now according to new definition Sun has eight planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune). So will you please come forward and intimate me as to when are you and other astrologers are going to use Uranus & Neptune in Vinshottary dasha, exalted, friendship etc. again in the name of sages. I think I have given a short brief about the Pluto. Now I am sure that you will like to answer my blog point wise. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: Dear Sanatkumar, Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only recently declassified from that status, before you question the primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of astrological predictions. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum. At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ? Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning........... 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ? Based on the position of army in the battle field........... 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ? Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night...... 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ? Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realise that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe. Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You can realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more about the book or description of various chapters then you may send email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar%> 20jain & TAG= & CID= http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away). To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on my email sanatkumar_jain <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). Sanat Kumar Jain Gwalior Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating problems to moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 Respected Kiran Ji, Namaskar, I am hesitant in answering the mail which you addressed to Sh. Lalitji. Because generally I avoid those mails which are not addressed to me. But from the mail it appears that actually you want to ask me. So I am actually trespassing the mail. I hope you won't mind. Actually what ever I pointed out is still unanswered by the group members and we are just jumping from one point to another without any conclusion. Though I am answering every mail (one by one) and almost on every line. Though you are also not sticking to your point but atleast you are specific. OK as you wish. You said >>>>>>> " Let us make counter-arguments to what Sanat says - which will prove his statements wrong - I am with you on this. " <<<<<< I am waiting for any logical, scientific arguments instead of arguments only based on faith or ignorance. You are advising the moderator and other members like >>>>>At the same time, let us respect Sanatji and not make personal attack on him. People are entitled to their views. That reason, I respect Sanatji.<<<<<<<<< In this matter I will like to say that it is not their fault but it is only their etiquettes hence if they don't know as to how one must behave with others (leave elders) then I am ready to bear their language. Because when some one has no arguments then he starts to use such language. It is the human psychology. Otherwise Galileo would not have been killed when he supported the solar system against the then knowledge (of course including our sages.). So far none of the member has come forward with some solid logic except some personal comments. But dosn't matter I will wait for some answer or logical comments. Secondly I am not like general People who are not aware with the astrology and astrologer can befool them. I am very specific and will like scientific or logical answer. I could not follow >>>>> My 2 cents on software: You use it for calculation and software does not give predictions. The jyotish makes predictions.<<<<<<< I think you want to say that software can calculate but prediction can only be made by astrologer after applying principles. If it is so then why computer can not apply the principles which is being applied by astrologer. I developed my own software for applying all principles and that's why I am saying that if one principle is right in one horoscope then it is not right in another horoscope. So how an astrologer can apply correct principle. But actually he support some past event with some matching principles but apply his whim according to the psychology of the individual for his business. Earlier I asked you " can you identify a single astrologer who is rightly applying the principle. " against your statement that 99% astrologers are wrong. You said >>>>>12 signs were made dividing the zodiac into parts.--------------- ----- The planetary positions help indicate that. <<<<<< but these signs were made by Greeks and not by our sages and we can't know anything correctly from the position of the planets. If principles are correct then can you just provide any foolproof astrological principle by which you can decide about (very ordinary questions) 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female. 2 When he / she will be married. 3 When he / she will be father / mother 4 When he / she will die. Because answers to these questions are absolute and other predictive answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof principle for any prediction then you can also intimate for further interaction. You said >>>>>>Friendship/Enemity between planets is a concept. Astrology has some root in tantra and the divine sages saw it during meditation.<<<<< No, you are saying in general terms whatever others are saying but their must be some logic and friendship / enmity may either be based on tatwa (prathvi, Jal, Vau, fire) or their location in the sky or in horoscope or based on sign. So you must be specific only then I will be convinced. You said >>>>>Parasara could write Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra using complex Sanskrit that we in Kaliyug cannot even translate properly?<<< No, First Brahat Parashar hors shastra (bphs) was even not available at the time of Varahmihir in 6th Cenutry nor at the time of Bhatotpal nor at the time of visit of Albaruni in 11th Century. Actually BPHS which is now available is only a handwork of some astrologers who simply want to take benefit from the name of Parashar. Even not a single principle is foolproof. So far translation is concerned then it is not so. If some persons are not able to translate it then it does not mean that no body can translate it. There are so many Sanskrit knowing Principles, sages, scholars in our country. You said >>>>>>Sages had divine powers and more intelligent than us. Let us accept that Sanatji, Don't debate principles that are based on practical research.<<<<<<< No, If sage would have some " divine " remember " divine " then they would have not said that Earth is stationary and Sun is nearer then Moon and constellations are nearer then Mercury………and so on…..and if principles are based on practical research then what was those practical, I am eager to know. I hope you will not jump to some new points and continue from your own above points as I am still waiting pointwise comments (which I used to give) on my earlier blog / mail to you and to other members of the group. Though you are very specific and I hope we will continue to be specific instead of like others who repeats " I will debate " , " I will debate " but without any comments. Thanks for your mail and offering your comments, what so ever. Yours, Sanat (readers may write on my email sanatkumar_jain) 1-12-2007 Dear Lalitji, Let us make counter-arguments to what Sanat says - which will prove his statements wrong - I am with you on this. At the same time, let us respect Sanatji and not make personal attack on him. People are entitled to their views. That reason, I respect Sanatji. Sanatji, My 2 cents on software: You use it for calculation and software does not give predictions. The jyotish makes predictions. I will answer some of your queries and request Lalitji, Aveshji, Chandrashekarji, Sushilji to counter you. 1. 12 signs were made dividing the zodiac into parts. This helps in making the chart during the time that you were born. I ask you a question: Why were you born on a particular date or time? It is because life has a purpose and that purpose is determined by prior karma. The planetary positions help indicate that. 2. Friendship/Enemity between planets is a concept. Astrology has some root in tantra and the divine sages saw it during meditation. How come Parasara could write Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra using complex Sanskrit that we in Kaliyug cannot even translate properly? Sages had divine powers and more intelligent than us. Let us accept that Sanatji, Don't debate principles that are based on practical research. What are axioms and postulates in geometry? They are accepted as true. Sushilji, pls. add Regards Kiran Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " kiran.rama " <kiran.rama wrote: > > Sanatji, > > there is nothing about sentiment here - Astrology as taught by the > sages is correct and near 100% accurate - However in the intervening > period, there have been many things added/deleted and the original > work of the sages was lost. We should research this and reconstruct > the original astrology by testing out various principles. > > In every group, you will see many people making close to 100% accurate > predictions. > > I am against charlatan astrologers (sadly 99% of the folks today are), > charlatan books etc - But astrology is a science and art and it is > upto us and future generations in India to learn this great science > > Regards > Kiran > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may send > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is > > Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Gwalior > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > problems to moderator > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2007 Report Share Posted December 2, 2007 Dear Lalit Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your mails of 28 and 29th. Though I have given a very comprehensive reply of your mail dt. 26th Nov. But you have not replied pointwise. If you are not ready to give pointwise reply then what is the use of discussion and how will you >>>>>>> i m very eager to settle scores with u by using ur own logic.<<<<<<<< settle the score. (do not think that by evading the point and using the filthy language you have settled the score.) I am not bouncing the questions / querry without any substance with me. So there is no question of evading and academic discussion >>>>>>> I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. Sanat. He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct debate for last more than two years.<<<<<<< I don't know what sort of interesting info. you have collected abt myself. But I am always ready for any discussion and I always reply even mail be derogatory or going to settle the score. If you will intimate me the site / mail which I have not replied then I will be happy and will definitely reply. It is possible that either I have not come across the mail because I do not reply the mails between group members and do not visit the forum regularly, if there is not a continuity of discussion. Because it is not correct to break the planning against me. (As Aavesh is writing to Ms Nalini like " … jokers like Mr Sanat…….. So where is the point which I should reply). However, to avoid any hardship I always quote that anyone can directly write to me on my email because it is also possible that I may have left the site. So your comment is quite baseless. Even I am replying your mails (though late because I am answering one by one) even after your filthy language. Because you are always in hurry, whereas the first sentence of my first blog say " ponder " means take your time and then write. If I am not present then you can always call me through my email. Because I read all my emails but may not be able to read all messages in the forum/site etc. I have replied every mail of this forum and at present not a single message is pending with me. How you can charge that I am evading direct discussion. But their must be some points. What sort of reply you want if there is nothing in the mail. I have replied you once, to Sh. Chandrashekhar ji, to M/s Kiran ji, to Aaveshji. But do you find any reply of my questions in their mails. Though Kiranji has tried somewhat but even she has not replied on my points. I have replied your earlier mail but you have not replied pointwise but came with some baseless defence. >>>>> if there is no good library of physics in a university, doesnt mean physics is not a science.<<<<< But I can read the physics from any other library. But if any book has those principles which have no support in any library of the world and whatever is being claimed is only based on faith towards sages and that too may also be wrong (though it took thousands of years) then how it can be termed as science. Sages were of the view that Earth is stationary and Sun is nearer then Moon. All constellations are below the Mercury…and so on….. How this concept may now be treated as correct and over the modern science. Same is the story with your >>>>>>>nuclear bomb can be made, do u know procedures? can u make one nuclear bomb ... u cant, does it enable u to say nuclear bombs are not real, not scientific product.<<<<<<< Perhaps you are not aware that one school student of USA has prepared the Bomb just after reading the books from the library. So if I want to know then I have to study and learn the procedure and have to join the department then I will be able to make a bomb. Or it makes no difference that instead of me someone else is preparing the bomb after reading and gaining the knowledge. But who is the astrologer who can reply my questions even after referring the socalled books from any university. Actuly you are not such a pilot as you stated >>>>>>>, we who are in astrology, majorly like such a pilot, we have got principles made by sages and now using them, how sages made these principles, unfortunately, not available to us. <<<<<<<< because pilot know that bomb will certainly blast. But you don't know as to whether your prediction and principles are right or not. You are only armed with blindfaith. So actually you are fighting with the wooden sword thinking that it will certainly be usefull. You or majority (I will say all) have never tried to peep in to the history, sociology, religion, human development, sociology and so on that's why you are not aware with the foundation stone of astrological principles. Because any principle can only be formulated on the basis of the then concept. If you find out the then concept (at the time of sages) then you can findout the reasons (or you may read my book). You are saying >>>>>>, I m very good in logic and i speak for the truth only, honest in my vision therefore,i m capable of giving u a lesson.<<<<<< But so far you have not given any logic by which you say that you are supporting astrology except exposing your blindfaith and filty language to teach me a lesson or settling a score and so on…… Though Galileo was killed by the church having same mentality to teach the lesson but ultimately Galileo was right though you may not agree and may like to support the concept of sages of stationary earth and so on……..Even our sages have not marked the signs too, which is basic requirement of predictive astrology. You claim that you speak for the truth. But it is not so. Because for finding a truth you have to know both sides then you can only judge that what is right. But presently you are not judging but you are only advocating astrology and that too on the basis of blindfaith without knowing the otherside story and delivering your judgement that you are right and with the truth. What a fun ? At one hand you say >>>>>>you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you.<<<< and on the other hand do not want to ponder on the fact as to how these principles were formulated (refer my book). So you are a lawyer who is defending his client on the basis of only blindfaith and asking CBI to enquire and knowing that facts are against your client then delivering your judgement that your client is right (astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. ) and not prepared to answer so many queries raised by me. So how you can be with truth, you are only with blindfaith. Otherwise leave aside describing looks you can't even predict as to which horoscope is belongs to a man or to a woman (refer my questions). So I am hesitant in saying that if you are really with truth then you must be on my side. And that too not blindly but after reading thoroughly then you can be a judge and able to decide as to whether I am right or not. However, It would be better if you can offer some reply on my earlier points or you may fix the points. But keep patience do not be in hurry and read the blog, think, interact take your own time and then reply and behave like a moderator and be open for any views. Because you can expel me from your forum (even you can say it or stop answering) but my views are stored in the form of book, which is not only being liked in India but abroad too (refer my first blog). I am always here or you can just email me in my absence. At present there is no pending mail from your forum. I will wait for any comments. So don't say I am avoiding discussion. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain 2-12-2007 Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " litsol " <litsol wrote: > > Dear Mr. Sanat, > > How old u r ? Why dont u understand if there is no good library of > physics in a university, doesnt mean physics is not a science. > > Same way, like u know, nuclear bomb can be made, do u know > procedures? can u make one nuclear bomb ... u cant, does it enable u > to say nuclear bombs are not real, not scientific product. > > now, think of a pilot, who gets already made nuclear bombs, flies his > aircraft and finally hits the target, he is not concerned with > procedure of making the nuclear bombs, we who are in astrology, > majorly like such a pilot, we have got principles made by sages and > now using them, how sages made these principles, unfortunately, not > available to us. > > In my first mail, I offered my assistance to you if u r positive, and > if u devote urself to rediscover forgotten procedures. I didnt read > last para of ur mail where u have written AIDS..etc.. > > In the second mail, is after understaing ur psychology , u r not for > descovering, rather, u have made ur ignorance ur asset and > propogating that, If u want to understand what astrology is and how > scientific it is, u should learn it, u should have an experince of it. > > regarding the win and defeat, I challanged u, if u have a malific > interest to defame astrology, I m very good in logic and i speak for > the truth only, honest in my vision therefore,i m capable of giving u > a lesson. but if u r too honest to check what astrololgy, my help > with respect is always there for u. > > I m not a person who avoids debates. > > regards, > Lalit. > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > Dear Lalit Ji, > > Namaskar, > > Thanks for your two mails. > > Though I avoid writing in groups because it is very difficult to > > handle the mails and sometimes arguments may heart feelings, which > is > > not my intention. > > > > In first mail you want to assist me and stated " I will offer my > life > > long assistance to you. " but in your second mail just after one > hour > > you > > say " I take up this challange, I m sure of my win, as u have to > > defeat that's why god send u to this group, where u will have to > face > > me. Dont run away from the ground " . > > > > It appears you are very much hearted with my blog. So let me clear > > first that I am neither interested in defeating you nor in > defending > > myself on wrong footings. More over I do not want to disturb your > > day to day discussion, if every body is harping on the same tune. > > Hence I asked readers to write me directly on my email. > > > > Like others, you have not answered the queries but at one side you > > show your inability and stated that > > > > >>>Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > > literature is not available containing the procedures,third problem > > is we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves > > around survival > > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share our > > knowledge easily.<<<<< > > > > whereas on the other hand you say that > > > > >>>>still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > > true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. <<<< > > > > So if astrology is scientific then how you can say that " problem is > > blind guruism " and if " literature is not available containing the > > procedures " then how you can say that it is scienfic. But for your > > kind information non-availability of literature is only an escape > > route. Because in primitive age either there were stone carvings > > which is difficult to destroy and there were system of hearsay > > (shruitigyan) by which sages pass on the knowledge to next > > generation. Thus this knowledge is always safe in the brain of > > students (shishya). Knowledge of sages were well spreaded in south > > India, Mesopotamia, Greece etc. So don't take any escape route. > > > > Your statement that " we are a irresponsible selfish community whose > > life revolves around survival " is not only applicable to Indians > > but it is human nature who always want to survive and oppose any > > other view. Otherwise Galileo would not have been imprisoned > for > > his views of solar system which was against the Bible (it is also > > against every religion), Or you would not have bombed me if my > views > > are not against your views. Hence correct interpretation may be > > that most of us are not logical and only governed by age-old > > traditions without applying our minds and prepare to oppose for any > > view which is against our mindset. > > > > Your statement " we were never procedure oriented, we always > concerned > > with end results " is totally right in my opinion because this is > our > > tradition to believe sages, Brahmins, astrologers etc. who are > > convincing us with some result or with some false hopes. They > created > > strong caste system and enabled a part of society for reading and > > questioning some thing. Thus unknowingly you are also following the > > same tradition and instead of being a procedure oriented to know > as > > to whether astrology is scientific or not you are just > > saying " astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > > true. " > > > > How you can say " we dont want to share our knowledge easily. " . > > Teacher is always prepared to teach, parents always prepared to > teach > > even our friends (if you want you can include me) are prepared to > > teach, and books who are our best friends are always prepared to > > teach us. But cunning business oriented astrologers are not > prepared > > to disclose his secrets, as to how he is befooling some individuals > > with weak mentality. > > > > If their may be a slightest truth in predictive astrology then I > > would be the first man who may be happy, Because I am actually > > associated with this since long and I have even designed a > horoscope > > which comprises all astrological principles in single horoscope > > (which is also given in my Book). > > > > > > So far your statement " it's predictions come true > > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. " is > > concerned, and you are not prepared to answer the questions raised > > in my blog, because if you will answer these questions then you can > > realize that astrology is science or not; then I will like to say > > that can you or any reader can decide about > > > > 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female. > > 2 When he / she will be married. > > 3 When he / she will be father / mother > > 4 When he / she will die. > > > > Because answers to these questions are absolute and other > predictive > > answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and > > secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is > > governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof principle > > for any prediction then you can also intimate for further > > interaction. If readers have faith on some astrologer then they may > > ask him above 4 questions and/or 10 questions raised in my blog, or > > about the position of Rahu / Ketu then they will realize the truth. > > > > So far your statemet " you should do some work to find out these > > procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you. " is > > concerned, I will like to say that I am associated with astrology > > since +35 years and after too much digging I find the procedures as > > to how all astrological principles were formulated along with many > > scientific concept, which have been included in my original > > books " Jyotish Kitna Sahi Kitna Galat " (Hindi) and " Astrology a > > science or myth " (English). Hence you need not to give life long > > assistance but it is more then enough if you go through the book. > > > > Yes I will like to add one more point that so far many astrologers > > and readers have gone through the book but non of them has ever > > intimated that he is not convinced with the factual position, but > > contrary to this every one praised the book, which is first book > with > > such scientific analysis. > > > > Other reader may directly write on my email > > sanatkumar_jain@, because I do not want to disturb your > > discussion, because when some one wants to be misguided then why I > > should worry. But it is my social duty to inform some truth, > Because > > they are not aware with the otherside story, and it is up to them > to > > decide, but definitely I am not interested in the business of > > defeating or defending. I am only interested in the Truth. > > > > What to say for " Though i dont know much astrology, I m ready to > > enter into a debate " . Though I don't think that you don't know > > astrology. But it is true that many innocent persons who really > don't > > know about the astrology; prepared to discuss as to how some > > predictions turned to be true and so on without any counter > arguments > > …………. > > > > > > Waiting for your comments. Thanks once again, > > > > Yours, > > > > > > Sanat > > Sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > (If you will allow then I will answer one by one to other mails > also) > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " litsol " > > <litsol@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Mr. Sanat, > > > > > > U deserve our regards, Thanx a lot for posting this mail to the > > > group. however, i w'd like to let u know, u r not alone who > thinks > > > like this and carries same questions in his mind. > > > > > > Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > > literature > > > is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we > are > > a > > > irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around > survival > > > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > > > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > > > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share > our > > > knowledge easily. > > > > > > still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > > true > > > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. > > > > > > you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will > offer > > my > > > life long assistance to you. > > > > > > regards, > > > Lalit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , " sanat2221 " > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > > > depth > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > > this. > > > So > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > whether > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science > due > > to > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want > > to > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > > > examine > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > > have > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > standing > > > in > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > understand > > > the > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but > if > > > you > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call > > an > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > > religious > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > > Moon, > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > > > sages > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > > > predict > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > > grabbing > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > > > etc. > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > > still > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > > everybody > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > situation, > > it > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > fate > > of > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > > fate > > > of > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > > sages > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > > principles > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > percolated > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > learn > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > > were > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > > > system. > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due > to > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > > fit > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > > within > > > a > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > > etc., > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > astrological > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) > may > > > come > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > > self > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > other > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > mislead, > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > > > that > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > astrology. > > > But > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > > > level > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > > following > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > subpara). > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > stationary > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > > > each > > > > other) ? > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons > over > > > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > > > quarter > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > seventh > > > > house) ? > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > > and > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > Aries > > > > sign) ? > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > > the > > > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and > hub > > > of > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > Venus > > > (a > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > > > between > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > structure > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion > of > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > > deg. > > > > apart? > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as > to > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > sage > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in > all > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > > old > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > > > beyond > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > Moon. > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles > are > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > > astrology > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination > > is > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically > and > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > concept > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > view > > of > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > concept > > > of > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > contains > > > the > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > > > basis > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages > > to > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > English > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You > can > > > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the > face > > of > > > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know > > more > > > > about the book or description of various chapters then you may > > send > > > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > > 20kumar% > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune > nor > > > they > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > presence > > > of > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > > > concept > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > mentioned > > > in > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within > > 14 > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > > > nobody > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > > > Sun, > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > respectively > > > on > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > > > Ketu > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03- 03- > > 1988 > > > ( > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > eclipses > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more > then > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > > > deg. > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > > > 76.49 > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > > 15.14 > > > > deg. away). > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > > also > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > > the > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > > not > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > > > myth). > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > > Moon > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. > But > > > As > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11- 1985 > > and > > > 3- > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > > solar > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > > > eclipses > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > > > degree > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > possible. > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > > > Thus > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > respectively. > > > All > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > fundamental > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > > then > > > I > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > > > them. > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science > but > > in > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > played > > > an > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > > > immense > > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > appears > > > to > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > > agree > > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > > was > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try > to > > > do > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to > pre- > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying > that > > > pre- > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > even > > > then > > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > > cascading > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say > pre- > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > every > > > Tom, > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > > deed > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > change. > > > You > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > > never > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > also > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > prewritten) > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because > in > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > altered > > > but > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can > > be > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > > > that > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > > astronomy > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > > correct. > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > > Still > > > if > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > > James > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used > to > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > business > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this > sort > > > of > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > regard > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information > > of > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further > > interaction > > > on > > > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling > > in > > > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > > (Astrology > > > Is > > > > Damaging Society). > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > Gwalior > > > > > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > > > > problems to moderator > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Hare ramakrishna, dear sanat kumar i think u know many things and u just wanted to push some of ur books like salman rushdy or taslima . If u want complete understanding of jyothish u can visit me ,as this grp space u can avoid misusing . rishis were aware of the movement of all planets and they know that sun is stationary .but for calculation purpose as jyothisha is based on calculation and practical purpose they use so many things which may be not true according to modern science .So this vakra or stationary motions u may not find in modern astronomy .same is case of venus and mercury .Its all based on the inhabitant of earth and his view .But u see the distance from earth is correctly measured and may be very small negligible error in their calculation with modern astronomy .U can refer atleast aryabhateeyam it says so many things abt earth where it says its gola is nature and even discusess the mutual gravitational force called parivahan sakti like this ,even bhaskaracharya says abt the eclipses and its not some mythical storey that rahu is trying to gobble sun or moon . But its all part of ganita system in jyothish which is used by panchanga makers who predicts even all eclipses correctly may since last 2 millinaiums ,so dont say rishis dont hav scintific back ground and even the movements and circumference of each planet has been assessed by them . And also they inclide so many other planets also like rahu and ketu and gulik and mandi and so many other apraskasita grahas or tertiery planets and it has got its own place in astrology and prashna .Can u show any planet called rahu and ketu in modern astronomy .Again i wanted to tell u their basis of planets need not be the real planets as like a traffic lite (automatic) controls the traffic ,its only a medium they used .And dont confuse with dailectical style with actual facts >when we r arriving to delhi by train we say delhi has come ,does it mean that delhi is coming to u .Also dont confuse sign board with actual place .if u get down to delhi by flight may be u can see ,welcome to delhi --that measn is that sign board is delhi ?? Yes ,i agree some logic is lost but since its a pracical thing and in our day to day practise we find what ever they used is in correct parlance . But i cannot talk to u if u r not willing to learn .Mind it there are methods in astrology were we dont use planets and some times only rasi dasas r mentioned and their it loses the all signifcance of planets .But u should hav the humbleness to study it .In india there is more than 100 of astro systems r there . So first u study and come with charts for arguments than writing sugar and licking the paper and complaing that this paper is not sweet . I hav 1000s of question abt any science ,if u refer back my mails u can see it ,some of that . But no question kovoor model or edamaruku model of indian atheist society as they them self proved wrong and was lieing .Kovoor said he studied astro ,here in our full life still we find there is 1000s of books r still lying in many librabrys untouched and this stupid people are claiming they knows everything and asking us to prove . Can sceince made food from carbon and hydregen and oxygen as all food is carbo hydrates ,can they produce rice and wheat seperately ,But we r not fools to argue with them because there is some accepted facts >other wise if u try u may get soda water only .But that doesnot make their therey wrong .Did sceince able to expalin the black holes(kaalika sakti ) which sucks matter as big as big planets and making a emptyness And even the therey of evolution is not fool proof ,also the first life in earth ,they make some conditions and say its based on this conditions remaining the same as a pre requisite to work the theorey ,why so if all is 2+2=4 .then tell me from where the first cell is generated ?? How the same energy matter is differring on physical properties ,salt is different and sugar is differnet ,and all is finaly part of total energy in this universe ????what is ur logic .Why some people r only allergic to some medicines ??why some kids become autistic after vaccinated???? if science so plain and simple and does not hav different diamentions. But u must explain all this without asking any pre conditions and one condition is allowed to explain all ur logic .Dont take different stand for each answer. regrds sunil nair . Om shreem mahalaxmai namah. Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "sanat2221" <sanatkumar_jain wrote:>> > Dear Lalit Ji,> Namaskar,> Thanks for your mails of 28 and 29th. Though I have given a very > comprehensive reply of your mail dt. 26th Nov. But you have not > replied pointwise. If you are not ready to give pointwise reply then > what is the use of discussion and how will you> > >>>>>>> i m very eager to settle scores with u by > using ur own logic.<<<<<<<<> > settle the score. (do not think that by evading the point and using > the filthy language you have settled the score.) I am not bouncing > the questions / querry without any substance with me. So there is no > question of evading and academic discussion> > >>>>>>> I have collected some intersting informations abt Mr. Sanat. > He has been provoking people simultaneously evading direct debate for > last more than two years.<<<<<<<> > I don't know what sort of interesting info. you have collected abt > myself. But I am always ready for any discussion and I always reply > even mail be derogatory or going to settle the score. If you will > intimate me the site / mail which I have not replied then I will be > happy and will definitely reply. It is possible that either I have > not come across the mail because I do not reply the mails between > group members and do not visit the forum regularly, if there is not > a continuity of discussion. Because it is not correct to break the > planning against me. (As Aavesh is writing to Ms Nalini like "…> jokers like Mr Sanat…….. So where is the point which I should reply). > However, to avoid any hardship I always quote that anyone can > directly write to me on my email because it is also possible that I > may have left the site. So your comment is quite baseless. Even I am > replying your mails (though late because I am answering one by one) > even after your filthy language. Because you are always in hurry, > whereas the first sentence of my first blog say "ponder" means take > your time and then write. If I am not present then you can always > call me through my email. Because I read all my emails but may not be > able to read all messages in the forum/site etc.> > I have replied every mail of this forum and at present not a single > message is pending with me. How you can charge that I am evading > direct discussion. But their must be some points. What sort of > reply you want if there is nothing in the mail. I have replied you > once, to Sh. Chandrashekhar ji, to M/s Kiran ji, to Aaveshji. But do > you find any reply of my questions in their mails. Though Kiranji has > tried somewhat but even she has not replied on my points. I have > replied your earlier mail but you have not replied pointwise but > came with some baseless defence. > > >>>>> if there is no good library of > physics in a university, doesnt mean physics is not a science.<<<<<> But I can read the physics from any other library. But if > any book has those principles which have no support in any library of > the world and whatever is being claimed is only based on faith > towards sages and that too may also be wrong (though it took > thousands of years) then how it can be termed as science. Sages were > of the view that Earth is stationary and Sun is nearer then Moon. All > constellations are below the Mercury…and so on….. How this concept > may now be treated as correct and over the modern science.> Same is the story with your > >>>>>>>nuclear bomb can be made, do u know > procedures? can u make one nuclear bomb ... u cant, does it enable u > to say nuclear bombs are not real, not scientific product.<<<<<<<> Perhaps you are not aware that one school student of USA has prepared > the Bomb just after reading the books from the library. So if I want > to know then I have to study and learn the procedure and have to > join the department then I will be able to make a bomb. Or it makes > no difference that instead of me someone else is preparing the bomb > after reading and gaining the knowledge. But who is the astrologer > who can reply my questions even after referring the socalled books > from any university.> Actuly you are not such a pilot as you stated> >>>>>>>, we who are in astrology, majorly like such a pilot, we have > got principles made by sages and > now using them, how sages made these principles, unfortunately, not > available to us. <<<<<<<<> because pilot know that bomb will certainly blast. But you don't know > as to whether your prediction and principles are right or not. You > are only armed with blindfaith. So actually you are fighting with the > wooden sword thinking that it will certainly be usefull. You or > majority (I will say all) have never tried to peep in to the history, > sociology, religion, human development, sociology and so on that's > why you are not aware with the foundation stone of astrological > principles. Because any principle can only be formulated on the basis > of the then concept. If you find out the then concept (at the time > of sages) then you can findout the reasons (or you may read my book).> You are saying > >>>>>>, I m very good in logic and i speak for > the truth only, honest in my vision therefore,i m capable of giving u > a lesson.<<<<<<> But so far you have not given any logic by which you say that you are > supporting astrology except exposing your blindfaith and filty > language to teach me a lesson or settling a score and so on…… Though > Galileo was killed by the church having same mentality to teach the > lesson but ultimately Galileo was right though you may not agree and > may like to support the concept of sages of stationary earth and so > on……..Even our sages have not marked the signs too, which is basic > requirement of predictive astrology. You claim that you speak for > the truth. But it is not so. Because for finding a truth you have > to know both sides then you can only judge that what is right. But > presently you are not judging but you are only advocating astrology > and that too on the basis of blindfaith without knowing the > otherside story and delivering your judgement that you are right and > with the truth. What a fun ? At one hand you say> >>>>>>you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will > offer my life long assistance to you.<<<<> and on the other hand do not want to ponder on the fact as to how > these principles were formulated (refer my book). So you are a lawyer > who is defending his client on the basis of only blindfaith and > asking CBI to enquire and knowing that facts are against your client > then delivering your judgement that your client is right (astrology > is of scientific nature, it's predictions come true and it can > describe ur looks without watching u. ) and not prepared to answer > so many queries raised by me. So how you can be with truth, you are > only with blindfaith. Otherwise leave aside describing looks you > can't even predict as to which horoscope is belongs to a man or to a > woman (refer my questions). So I am hesitant in saying that if you > are really with truth then you must be on my side. And that too not > blindly but after reading thoroughly then you can be a judge and able > to decide as to whether I am right or not.> > However, It would be better if you can offer some reply on my earlier > points or you may fix the points. But keep patience do not be in > hurry and read the blog, think, interact take your own time and then > reply and behave like a moderator and be open for any views. Because > you can expel me from your forum (even you can say it or stop > answering) but my views are stored in the form of book, which is not > only being liked in India but abroad too (refer my first blog). I am > always here or you can just email me in my absence.> At present there is no pending mail from your forum. I will wait for > any comments. So don't say I am avoiding discussion.> Thanks,> > Sanat> Sanatkumar_jain 2-12-2007> > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "litsol" > litsol@ wrote:> >> > Dear Mr. Sanat,> > > > How old u r ? Why dont u understand if there is no good library of > > physics in a university, doesnt mean physics is not a science.> > > > Same way, like u know, nuclear bomb can be made, do u know > > procedures? can u make one nuclear bomb ... u cant, does it enable > u > > to say nuclear bombs are not real, not scientific product.> > > > now, think of a pilot, who gets already made nuclear bombs, flies > his > > aircraft and finally hits the target, he is not concerned with > > procedure of making the nuclear bombs, we who are in astrology, > > majorly like such a pilot, we have got principles made by sages and > > now using them, how sages made these principles, unfortunately, not > > available to us. > > > > In my first mail, I offered my assistance to you if u r positive, > and > > if u devote urself to rediscover forgotten procedures. I didnt read > > last para of ur mail where u have written AIDS..etc..> > > > In the second mail, is after understaing ur psychology , u r not > for > > descovering, rather, u have made ur ignorance ur asset and > > propogating that, If u want to understand what astrology is and how > > scientific it is, u should learn it, u should have an experince of > it.> > > > regarding the win and defeat, I challanged u, if u have a malific > > interest to defame astrology, I m very good in logic and i speak > for > > the truth only, honest in my vision therefore,i m capable of giving > u > > a lesson. but if u r too honest to check what astrololgy, my help > > with respect is always there for u.> > > > I m not a person who avoids debates.> > > > regards,> > Lalit.> > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "sanat2221" > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Lalit Ji,> > > Namaskar,> > > Thanks for your two mails. > > > Though I avoid writing in groups because it is very difficult to > > > handle the mails and sometimes arguments may heart feelings, > which > > is > > > not my intention. > > > > > > In first mail you want to assist me and stated "I will offer my > > life > > > long assistance to you." but in your second mail just after one > > hour > > > you > > > say "I take up this challange, I m sure of my win, as u have to > > > defeat that's why god send u to this group, where u will have to > > face > > > me. Dont run away from the ground".> > > > > > It appears you are very much hearted with my blog. So let me > clear > > > first that I am neither interested in defeating you nor in > > defending > > > myself on wrong footings. More over I do not want to disturb > your > > > day to day discussion, if every body is harping on the same > tune. > > > Hence I asked readers to write me directly on my email. > > > > > > Like others, you have not answered the queries but at one side > you > > > show your inability and stated that> > > > > > >>>Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > > > literature is not available containing the procedures,third > problem > > > is we are a irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves > > > around survival > > > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > > > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > > > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share > our > > > knowledge easily.<<<<<> > > > > > whereas on the other hand you say that> > > > > > >>>>still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions > come > > > true and it can describe ur looks without watching u. <<<<> > > > > > So if astrology is scientific then how you can say that "problem > is > > > blind guruism" and if "literature is not available containing the > > > procedures" then how you can say that it is scienfic. But for > your > > > kind information non-availability of literature is only an escape > > > route. Because in primitive age either there were stone carvings > > > which is difficult to destroy and there were system of hearsay > > > (shruitigyan) by which sages pass on the knowledge to next > > > generation. Thus this knowledge is always safe in the brain of > > > students (shishya). Knowledge of sages were well spreaded in > south > > > India, Mesopotamia, Greece etc. So don't take any escape route.> > > > > > Your statement that "we are a irresponsible selfish community > whose > > > life revolves around survival " is not only applicable to > Indians > > > but it is human nature who always want to survive and oppose > any > > > other view. Otherwise Galileo would not have been imprisoned > > for > > > his views of solar system which was against the Bible (it is > also > > > against every religion), Or you would not have bombed me if my > > views > > > are not against your views. Hence correct interpretation may be > > > that most of us are not logical and only governed by age-old > > > traditions without applying our minds and prepare to oppose for > any > > > view which is against our mindset.> > > > > > Your statement "we were never procedure oriented, we always > > concerned > > > with end results" is totally right in my opinion because this is > > our > > > tradition to believe sages, Brahmins, astrologers etc. who are > > > convincing us with some result or with some false hopes. They > > created > > > strong caste system and enabled a part of society for reading and > > > questioning some thing. Thus unknowingly you are also following > the > > > same tradition and instead of being a procedure oriented to know > > as > > > to whether astrology is scientific or not you are just > > > saying "astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > > > true."> > > > > > How you can say "we dont want to share our knowledge easily.". > > > Teacher is always prepared to teach, parents always prepared to > > teach > > > even our friends (if you want you can include me) are prepared to > > > teach, and books who are our best friends are always prepared to > > > teach us. But cunning business oriented astrologers are not > > prepared > > > to disclose his secrets, as to how he is befooling some > individuals > > > with weak mentality.> > > > > > If their may be a slightest truth in predictive astrology then I > > > would be the first man who may be happy, Because I am actually > > > associated with this since long and I have even designed a > > horoscope > > > which comprises all astrological principles in single horoscope > > > (which is also given in my Book).> > > > > > > > > So far your statement "it's predictions come true > > > and it can describe ur looks without watching u." is > > > concerned, and you are not prepared to answer the questions > raised > > > in my blog, because if you will answer these questions then you > can > > > realize that astrology is science or not; then I will like to say > > > that can you or any reader can decide about> > > > > > 1 Any horoscope belongs to a male or female.> > > 2 When he / she will be married.> > > 3 When he / she will be father / mother> > > 4 When he / she will die.> > > > > > Because answers to these questions are absolute and other > > predictive > > > answers are relative and they can be interpreted by both ways and > > > secondly these are the basic questions by which entire life is > > > governed and changed, Or if you have any other foolproof > principle > > > for any prediction then you can also intimate for further > > > interaction. If readers have faith on some astrologer then they > may > > > ask him above 4 questions and/or 10 questions raised in my blog, > or > > > about the position of Rahu / Ketu then they will realize the > truth.> > > > > > So far your statemet "you should do some work to find out these > > > procedures, I will offer my life long assistance to you." is > > > concerned, I will like to say that I am associated with astrology > > > since +35 years and after too much digging I find the procedures > as > > > to how all astrological principles were formulated along with > many > > > scientific concept, which have been included in my original > > > books "Jyotish Kitna Sahi Kitna Galat" (Hindi) and "Astrology a > > > science or myth" (English). Hence you need not to give life long > > > assistance but it is more then enough if you go through the book.> > > > > > Yes I will like to add one more point that so far many > astrologers > > > and readers have gone through the book but non of them has ever > > > intimated that he is not convinced with the factual position, but > > > contrary to this every one praised the book, which is first book > > with > > > such scientific analysis. > > > > > > Other reader may directly write on my email > > > sanatkumar_jain@, because I do not want to disturb your > > > discussion, because when some one wants to be misguided then why > I > > > should worry. But it is my social duty to inform some truth, > > Because > > > they are not aware with the otherside story, and it is up to them > > to > > > decide, but definitely I am not interested in the business of > > > defeating or defending. I am only interested in the Truth.> > > > > > What to say for "Though i dont know much astrology, I m ready to > > > enter into a debate". Though I don't think that you don't know > > > astrology. But it is true that many innocent persons who really > > don't > > > know about the astrology; prepared to discuss as to how some > > > predictions turned to be true and so on without any counter > > arguments > > > ………….> > > > > > > > > Waiting for your comments. Thanks once again,> > > > > > Yours,> > > > > > > > > Sanat> > > Sanatkumar_jain@> > > > > > (If you will allow then I will answer one by one to other mails > > also)> > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "litsol" > > > <litsol@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Mr. Sanat,> > > > > > > > U deserve our regards, Thanx a lot for posting this mail to the > > > > group. however, i w'd like to let u know, u r not alone who > > thinks > > > > like this and carries same questions in his mind.> > > > > > > > Our first problem is blind guruism, second problem is our > > > literature > > > > is not available containing the procedures,third problem is we > > are > > > a > > > > irresponsible selfish community whose life revolves around > > survival > > > > issues and last problem is we were never procedure oriented, we > > > > always concerned with end results, that's why no body tried to > > > > rediscover which was destroyed and lastly we dont want to share > > our > > > > knowledge easily.> > > > > > > > still, astrology is of scientific nature, it's predictions come > > > true > > > > and it can describe ur looks without watching u. > > > > > > > > you should do some work to find out these procedures, I will > > offer > > > my > > > > life long assistance to you.> > > > > > > > regards,> > > > Lalit.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , "sanat2221" > > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH> > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to > some > > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied > in > > > > depth > > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > > > this. > > > > So > > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > > whether > > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science > > due > > > to > > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > want > > > to > > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > > > > examine > > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > > > have > > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > standing > > > > in > > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is > a > > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > understand > > > > the > > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but > > if > > > > you > > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > call > > > an > > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum.> > > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > early > > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > > > religious > > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > > > Moon, > > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days > only > > > > sages > > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > > > > predict > > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > > > grabbing > > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu.> > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > donations > > > > etc. > > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > > > still > > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > > > everybody > > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > situation, > > > it > > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > > fate > > > of > > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > > > fate > > > > of > > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > various > > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > > > sages > > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > > > principles > > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > > percolated > > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > > learn > > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > > > were > > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > Western > > > > system.> > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > group > > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology > due > > to > > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try > to > > > fit > > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > > > within > > > > a > > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > > > etc., > > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > > astrological > > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > diabolical > > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) > > may > > > > come > > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > > > self > > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > > other > > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > > mislead, > > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > find > > > > that > > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group > (say > > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > astrology. > > > > But > > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was > the > > > > level > > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure > was > > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > > > following > > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > > subpara).> > > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > seven > > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?> > > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > stationary > > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on……….> > > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity > and > > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy > of > > > > each > > > > > other) ?> > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons > > over > > > > > nector after sea-churning………..> > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > > > > quarter > > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > > seventh > > > > > house) ?> > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field………..> > > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > exalted > > > and > > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > > Aries > > > > > sign) ?> > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration > of > > > the > > > > > day is more in comparison to night……> > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and > > hub > > > > of > > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > > Venus > > > > (a > > > > > small planet) has 20 years ?> > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect > of > > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….> > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > > > > between > > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?> > > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures……….> > > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a > week > > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?> > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > > structure > > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away…..> > > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > motion > > of > > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?> > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..> > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are > 180 > > > deg. > > > > > apart?> > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..> > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?> > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….> > > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as > > to > > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one > gave > > > > > answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > > > Universe.> > > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > > sage > > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in > the > > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in > > all > > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read > any > > > old > > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon > is > > > > beyond > > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > > Moon. > > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles > > are > > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > > > astrology > > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > correct > > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > combination > > > is > > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically > > and > > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > > concept > > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > > view > > > of > > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > concept > > > > of > > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.> > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > astrology "Jyotish -> > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > contains > > > > the > > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > the > > > > basis > > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > sages > > > to > > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > > English > > > > > with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You > > can > > > > > realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the > > face > > > of > > > > > predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know > > > more > > > > > about the book or description of various chapters then you > may > > > send > > > > > email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?> > > produktID=1759836> > > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%> > > 20kumar%> > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID=> > > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t> > > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune > > nor > > > > they > > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > presence > > > > of > > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > > > > concept > > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was > > > mentioned > > > > in > > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > within > > > 14 > > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). > But > > > > nobody > > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > when > > > > Sun, > > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > respectively > > > > on > > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > and > > > > Ketu > > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-> 03-> > > 1988 > > > > ( > > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > > eclipses > > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more > > then > > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > 79.04 > > > > deg. > > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were > at > > > > 76.49 > > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > > > 15.14 > > > > > deg. away).> > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > > > also > > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred > at > > > the > > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it > was > > > not > > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > > > > myth). > > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > > > Moon > > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. > > But > > > > As > > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-> 1985 > > > and > > > > 3-> > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > > > solar > > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > > > > eclipses > > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and > 166 > > > > degree > > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > possible. > > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > almanac. > > > > Thus > > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > respectively. > > > > All > > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > fundamental > > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you > want > > > then > > > > I > > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > detecting > > > > them.> > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science > > but > > > in > > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy > + > > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > psychology > > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > > played > > > > an > > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > > > > immense > > > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > > appears > > > > to > > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > > > agree > > > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided > as > > > was > > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may > try > > to > > > > do > > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to > > pre-> > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying > > that > > > > pre-> > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > > even > > > > then > > > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > > > cascading > > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > every > > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say > > pre-> > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > > every > > > > Tom, > > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, > good > > > deed > > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > change. > > > > You > > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > > > never > > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot > be > > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > > also > > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > > prewritten) > > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > because > > in > > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > altered > > > > but > > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > can > > > be > > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit > of > > > > > planets?> > > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > assured > > > > that > > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > > > astronomy > > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > > > correct. > > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > > > Still > > > > if > > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > > > James > > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize > to > > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail > and > > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used > > to > > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > business > > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this > > sort > > > > of > > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > > regard > > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > information > > > of > > > > > Universe, solar system.> > > > > > > > > > I will like to have your critical comments for further > > > interaction > > > > on > > > > > my email sanatkumar_jain@ . It would be better to know > > > > > the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before > falling > > > in > > > > > the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > > > (Astrology > > > > Is > > > > > Damaging Society).> > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain> > > > > Gwalior> > > > > > > > > > Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of > creating > > > > > problems to moderator> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Dear chandrashekhar ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your some comments but still you are not answering the many questions raised so far. You said >>>>>>……However if the sages have not changed their views of what should be the definition of graha, for thousands of years, are to be called primitive.<<<<<<<< Yes. What is knowledge. It can never be complete and what is science. Nothing but a continuous and systematic way of accumulating the knowledge without any blindfaith. That's why scientific knowledge or we may say knowledge of human being is improving day-by-day. But if you are sticking to a knowledge without any explanation like primitive society (Aadiwasis who are living in dense forest with their own concept about the world.) then it will certainly be termed as primitive knowledge. But I never criticized or under- estimated the knowledge of sages, but their knowledge was best with reference to the then accumulation of knowledge and concept. In other words I may say that the person who has devised the wheel or fire with striking the stone is not less then a scientist. Because he derived the best out of the then knowledge. But if in 21st century you start to say that wheel invented by some intelligent person (he would have been some sage, because a person having knowledge was termed as sages.) and we must use that wheel in aeroplane because that primitive wheel has not yet been changed and still used by Aadiwasis whereas wheel used in aeroplane is changing every now and then. In the same way if you put sages (other civilizations too had many intelligent persons in primitive age, but in Indian civilization they were called Rishi, Maharishi and so on.) in the thread of development of human civilization then only you can realize the importance with reference to the then knowledge and primitive with reference to modern knowledge. >>>>>>>but there is a difference in the way planet is defined by western astronomers and the manner in which a graha is defined by the sages who laid the foundation of Jyotish. <<<<<<<<< Likewise if our sages were of the view that every movable thing is livingbeing and planet who moves are living being and deties. Then there is no harm. Because it was not possible to think otherwise in those days. Thus if they termed Sun and Moon as planets even then there is no harm because with the then concept of planet they move hence our sages were right. How do they come to know that Sun is a star of Earth is sphere. Even if you do not apply your modern knowledge they how do you say that Sun is star of Earth is sphere or it is moving around the Sun and so on. Thus the concept of our sages were right with reference to the then level of knowledge and best thinking. Western astronomers has not devised their own manner of defining the planet. But they actually borrowed the primitive knowledge and developed it. Thus after thousands of years of human civilization, Copernicus find the concept of solar system. But he was so afraid with the mentality of the society ( which is still existing and not willing to accept other then what ever has been filled in the mind. You can find them very easily) that he offered the concept without his name. He gave the concept that planet used to rotate around the star and Sun is a star, and Earth is not in the centre of the universe. This concept was seconded by the Galileo, who have to face death, because it was against the concept of Bible. But if he would have been here even then he has to face the death. Because again this concept was against the concept of sages and religion. So don,t say that concept of science is different but it is only modified concept. Thus every knowledge is a part of development because in absence of that knowledge (primitive) we would not have gathered so much knowledge. And definetly, modern knowledge of 21st century would be primitive with reference to the knowledge of 40th century. Thus knowledge of sages was important but we should not catagorised them as super human. Even in primitive age they were not super because they always tried to learn the knowledge of Greek, Mesopotamia and so on. Where as we are not prepared to learn any thing but beating the bush. Sages who formulated the principle of astrology were only trying their best to know the destiny with the help of presence of deities (grah). So what is wrong. Every body wants to know. Are scientists are not busy in finding out the life on other planets. But they are doing experiments, research and so on. In the same way when sages could assess the timing of eclipse (troubles on deties and know the way to relieve them by donation and so on) then why can't they venture to find out the troubles of King and subsequently of general public. For this they tried to formulate some principles, and for this they were quite open and accepted the concept of signs, which was not known to them (sages). Thus some output appears to be correct (psychologically, which was not known in those days). Even in those days astrology (predictive) was not acceptable in sages themselves. Even Manu has stated in Manusmriti that those who talks about astrology (predictive) must be expelled from the gathering of learned. >>>>>>>Since you assume the two to be identical, not much purpose will be served in answering your blog<<<<<<< So if you want to say that Sun, Moon, Venus etc. of the sages were different from the Sun, Moon, Venus etc., which we used to see, then it will be a new theory. I think you will not say like this. At the most you can say that we may treat the Sun as a star but it was planet according to the sages. In this regard I have already explained that our sages were not aware with the concept of solar system so they may know which is planet and which is star. But it makes no difference till we take it as a developmental process. I am always giving a detailed reply though much more remains left in my mind. Now it is upto you as to whether you want to continue or not and whether you or other member / moderator is willing to give reply of my earlier blog, mails or not (not after reading my book). But I will continue to reply if there may be slightest defence or question. Otherwise your moderator will say that I provoke and ran away from direct discussion. Now I can only wait and see for any message from the group. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain (Reader may directly write to me on my email) 3-12-2007 Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: > > Dear Sanat, > > It is interesting that, in your opinion, though the modern day > scientists that you adore so much, change the definition of what in > their view should be termed a planet, their views are to be taken as > sacrosanct. However if the sages have not changed their views of what > should be the definition of graha, for thousands of years, are to be > called primitive. > > I do not want to enter in to mere semantics but there is a difference in > the way planet is defined by western astronomers and the manner in which > a graha is defined by the sages who laid the foundation of Jyotish. > Since you assume the two to be identical, not much purpose will be > served in answering your blog in the way of advancing the knowledge of > astrology which is the purpose of this list. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > sanat2221 wrote: > > Dear Chandrashekhar. > > Thanks for your mail. > > Though you have not replied the points raised in my blog. But you > > raised question about Pluto. > > I think either you are not aware with the circumstances as to why it > > was treated as planet and why removed from the group or you are > > checking my knowledge. So let me first gave short answer to your > > question. > > > > It was concept in the Primitive age that every movable body among the > > fixed stars is planet. On the basis of the then knowledge and > > experience Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were > > treated as planets. Remember Sun and Moon was treated as planets by > > our sages and not a star or satellite, which astrologers are now > > propagating in the name of astrology. > > > > On the basis of this definition an orbiting body Uranus found by > > William Herschel in 1781 was known as a planet. In continuity of this > > discovery, Ceres planet discovered followed by discoveries of Pallas, > > Juno, Vesta, Astraea, Neptune. Clyde Tom Baugh discovered Pluto > > planet (diameter 2320 km) on 13-3-1930 in the Kuiper belt, In 2005, > > Brown discovered 2003UB313, which was bigger then Pluto and it was > > thought to have a proper definition of planet. Remember that none of > > these planets were discovered by the astrologers of India, because > > all of them were busy in befooling the general public in the name of > > forecast and only on the good name of sages. > > > > It was defined in 2006 by the union of 9000 astronomers that any > > moving body will be planet if it has cleared other small bodies > > around its orbit. Some planets have not cleared this third condition > > hence Pluto including Ceres, Pallas, Charon, Quaoar, Sedna, Jena etc. > > bodies could not be treated as planet and another category of Dwarf > > planet other then star, planet, satellite was created to accommodate > > all these orbiting bodies. Now Pluto is known as Dwarf planet number > > 134340. Now according to new definition Sun has eight planets > > (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune). > > So will you please come forward and intimate me as to when are you > > and other astrologers are going to use Uranus & Neptune in > > Vinshottary dasha, exalted, friendship etc. again in the name of > > sages. > > > > I think I have given a short brief about the Pluto. Now I am sure > > that you will like to answer my blog point wise. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sanat > > Sanatkumar_jain > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar > > <sharma.chandrashekhar@> wrote: > > > >> Dear Sanatkumar, > >> > >> Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was > >> classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and > >> > > only > > > >> recently declassified from that status, before you question the > >> primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, > >> > > that > > > >> are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods > >> > > of > > > >> astrological predictions. > >> > >> Chandrashekhar. > >> > >> > >> > >> sanat2221 wrote: > >> > >>> ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > >>> Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > >>> misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > >>> > > depth > > > >>> but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > >>> > > this. So > > > >>> come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > >>> > > whether > > > >>> astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > >>> > > to > > > >>> some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > >>> astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > >>> emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > >>> > > examine > > > >>> it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > >>> not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > >>> > > in > > > >>> support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > >>> infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > >>> science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > >>> > > the > > > >>> problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > >>> > > you > > > >>> are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > >>> astrologer in the consumer forum. > >>> > >>> At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > >>> Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > >>> capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > >>> > > religious > > > >>> philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > >>> > > Moon, > > > >>> Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > >>> > > sages > > > >>> had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > >>> prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > >>> > > predict > > > >>> solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > >>> > > grabbing > > > >>> the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > >>> They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > >>> duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > >>> > > etc. > > > >>> to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > >>> > > still > > > >>> being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > >>> > > everybody > > > >>> is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > >>> > > it > > > >>> was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > >>> > > of > > > >>> deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > >>> > > fate of > > > >>> King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > >>> astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > >>> > > sages > > > >>> based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > >>> > > principles > > > >>> were the key factors for deciding the fate. > >>> > >>> Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > >>> > > percolated > > > >>> in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > >>> such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > >>> spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > >>> > > system. > > > >>> What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > >>> belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > >>> their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > >>> past event very precisely within some astrological principle > >>> > > within a > > > >>> capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > >>> but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > >>> > > astrological > > > >>> principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > >>> opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > >>> > > come > > > >>> true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > >>> praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > >>> horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > >>> create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > >>> > > that > > > >>> only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > >>> scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > >>> > > But > > > >>> none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > >>> > > level > > > >>> of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > >>> astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > >>> adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > >>> Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > >>> periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > >>> > > following > > > >>> questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > >>> > > subpara). > > > >>> 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > >>> planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > >>> > >>> It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > >>> Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > >>> > >>> 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > >>> friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > >>> > > each > > > >>> other) ? > >>> Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > >>> nector after sea-churning........... > >>> 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > >>> > > quarter > > > >>> to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > >>> > > seventh > > > >>> house) ? > >>> Based on the position of army in the battle field........... > >>> > >>> 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > >>> > > and > > > >>> debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > >>> sign) ? > >>> Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > >>> day is more in comparison to night...... > >>> 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > >>> > > of > > > >>> our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > >>> > > (a > > > >>> small planet) has 20 years ? > >>> Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > >>> Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... > >>> 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > >>> > > between > > > >>> nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > >>> > >>> Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... > >>> > >>> 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > >>> (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > >>> Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > >>> > > structure > > > >>> of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... > >>> > >>> 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > >>> Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > >>> On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > >>> 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > >>> > > deg. > > > >>> apart? > >>> On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... > >>> 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > >>> Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... > >>> > >>> Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > >>> whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > >>> answers to these questions then he will realise that entire > >>> astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > >>> Universe. > >>> > >>> Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > >>> knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > >>> Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > >>> centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > >>> religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > >>> scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > >>> > > beyond > > > >>> Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > >>> You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > >>> actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > >>> > > astrology > > > >>> since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > >>> prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > >>> not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > >>> systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > >>> (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > >>> > > of > > > >>> modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > >>> > > of > > > >>> Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > >>> After lot of research I wrote an original book on > >>> > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > >>> Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > >>> > > the > > > >>> detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > >>> > > basis > > > >>> of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > >>> formulate these principles. This book was also published in > >>> > > English > > > >>> with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). You can > >>> realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face > >>> > > of > > > >>> predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more > >>> about the book or description of various chapters then you may > >>> > > send > > > >>> email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. > >>> Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > >>> > > produktID=1759836 > > > >>> <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> > >>> > >>> http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > >>> > > 20kumar% > > > >>> <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > >>> > > 20kumar%> > > > >>> 20jain & TAG= & CID= > >>> > >>> http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > >>> <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > >>> ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > >>> > >>> At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > >>> > > they > > > >>> were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > >>> > > of > > > >>> Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > >>> > > concept > > > >>> of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > >>> > > mentioned in > > > >>> the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > >>> degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > >>> > > nobody > > > >>> will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > >>> > > Sun, > > > >>> Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > >>> > > on > > > >>> 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > >>> > > Ketu > > > >>> were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > >>> > > 1988 ( > > > >>> Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > >>> occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > >>> 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > >>> > > deg. > > > >>> on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > >>> > > 76.49 > > > >>> deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > >>> deg. away). > >>> To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > >>> find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > >>> > > the > > > >>> intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > >>> known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > >>> > > myth). > > > >>> Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > >>> happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > >>> > > As > > > >>> per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > >>> > > and 3- > > > >>> 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > >>> > > solar > > > >>> eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > >>> respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > >>> > > eclipses > > > >>> then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > >>> > > degree > > > >>> respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > >>> Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > >>> > > Thus > > > >>> there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > >>> > > All > > > >>> horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > >>> positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > >>> > > then I > > > >>> can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > >>> > > them. > > > >>> I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > >>> > > in > > > >>> primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > >>> psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > >>> (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > >>> > > played an > > > >>> important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > >>> > > immense > > > >>> faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > >>> > > appears to > > > >>> be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > >>> > > agree > > > >>> with the above observation after going through my original > >>> revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > >>> > > was > > > >>> contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > >>> > > do > > > >>> some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > >>> written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > >>> > > pre- > > > >>> written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > >>> > > then > > > >>> all attached happening will automatically change creating a > >>> > > cascading > > > >>> effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > >>> person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > >>> defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > >>> > > Tom, > > > >>> Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > >>> > > deed > > > >>> etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > >>> > > You > > > >>> will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > >>> calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > >>> > > never > > > >>> and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > >>> altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > >>> fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > >>> > > prewritten) > > > >>> by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > >>> that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > >>> > > but > > > >>> how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > >>> changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > >>> planets? > >>> > >>> Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > >>> > > that > > > >>> actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > >>> > > astronomy > > > >>> and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > >>> unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > >>> > > correct. > > > >>> Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > >>> > > Still if > > > >>> you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > >>> Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > >>> anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > >>> website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > >>> http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern > >>> technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > >>> spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > >>> interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > >>> > > of > > > >>> ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > >>> and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > >>> (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > >>> principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > >>> Universe, solar system. > >>> > >>> I will like to have your critical comments for further > >>> > > interaction on > > > >>> my email sanatkumar_jain@ > >>> <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to > >>> > > know > > > >>> the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in > >>> the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS > >>> > > (Astrology Is > > > >>> Damaging Society). > >>> Sanat Kumar Jain > >>> Gwalior > >>> > >>> Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating > >>> problems to moderator > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2007 Report Share Posted December 3, 2007 Dear Sanat, I do not understand why a changeable definition of basic parameters of a science is modern science and is development of "Primitive knowledge" as you prefer to call it and fixed definitions are Primitive knowledge. It appears you think that solar system was discovered by Copernicus. If this is your view, it maybe better that you read more Jyotish books on siddhanta and then advance your theories. Your assumption about how the sages could have thought about a certain concept is your own view and not necessarily the right one. I do not know your source of information on wheel or its structure but am sure you are not aware that wheel is termed as one of the greatest invention of ancient times. That is why there is a saying that you can not reinvent the wheel. it appears you do not to that view and apply engineering principles in a manner not know to engineers, when you talk about wheels. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: Dear chandrashekhar ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your some comments but still you are not answering the many questions raised so far. You said ……However if the sages have not changed their views of what should be the definition of graha, for thousands of years, are to be called primitive.<<<<<<<< Yes. What is knowledge. It can never be complete and what is science. Nothing but a continuous and systematic way of accumulating the knowledge without any blindfaith. That's why scientific knowledge or we may say knowledge of human being is improving day-by-day. But if you are sticking to a knowledge without any explanation like primitive society (Aadiwasis who are living in dense forest with their own concept about the world.) then it will certainly be termed as primitive knowledge. But I never criticized or under- estimated the knowledge of sages, but their knowledge was best with reference to the then accumulation of knowledge and concept. In other words I may say that the person who has devised the wheel or fire with striking the stone is not less then a scientist. Because he derived the best out of the then knowledge. But if in 21st century you start to say that wheel invented by some intelligent person (he would have been some sage, because a person having knowledge was termed as sages.) and we must use that wheel in aeroplane because that primitive wheel has not yet been changed and still used by Aadiwasis whereas wheel used in aeroplane is changing every now and then. In the same way if you put sages (other civilizations too had many intelligent persons in primitive age, but in Indian civilization they were called Rishi, Maharishi and so on.) in the thread of development of human civilization then only you can realize the importance with reference to the then knowledge and primitive with reference to modern knowledge. but there is a difference in the way planet is defined by western astronomers and the manner in which a graha is defined by the sages who laid the foundation of Jyotish. <<<<<<<<< Likewise if our sages were of the view that every movable thing is livingbeing and planet who moves are living being and deties. Then there is no harm. Because it was not possible to think otherwise in those days. Thus if they termed Sun and Moon as planets even then there is no harm because with the then concept of planet they move hence our sages were right. How do they come to know that Sun is a star of Earth is sphere. Even if you do not apply your modern knowledge they how do you say that Sun is star of Earth is sphere or it is moving around the Sun and so on. Thus the concept of our sages were right with reference to the then level of knowledge and best thinking. Western astronomers has not devised their own manner of defining the planet. But they actually borrowed the primitive knowledge and developed it. Thus after thousands of years of human civilization, Copernicus find the concept of solar system. But he was so afraid with the mentality of the society ( which is still existing and not willing to accept other then what ever has been filled in the mind. You can find them very easily) that he offered the concept without his name. He gave the concept that planet used to rotate around the star and Sun is a star, and Earth is not in the centre of the universe. This concept was seconded by the Galileo, who have to face death, because it was against the concept of Bible. But if he would have been here even then he has to face the death. Because again this concept was against the concept of sages and religion. So don,t say that concept of science is different but it is only modified concept. Thus every knowledge is a part of development because in absence of that knowledge (primitive) we would not have gathered so much knowledge. And definetly, modern knowledge of 21st century would be primitive with reference to the knowledge of 40th century. Thus knowledge of sages was important but we should not catagorised them as super human. Even in primitive age they were not super because they always tried to learn the knowledge of Greek, Mesopotamia and so on. Where as we are not prepared to learn any thing but beating the bush. Sages who formulated the principle of astrology were only trying their best to know the destiny with the help of presence of deities (grah). So what is wrong. Every body wants to know. Are scientists are not busy in finding out the life on other planets. But they are doing experiments, research and so on. In the same way when sages could assess the timing of eclipse (troubles on deties and know the way to relieve them by donation and so on) then why can't they venture to find out the troubles of King and subsequently of general public. For this they tried to formulate some principles, and for this they were quite open and accepted the concept of signs, which was not known to them (sages). Thus some output appears to be correct (psychologically, which was not known in those days). Even in those days astrology (predictive) was not acceptable in sages themselves. Even Manu has stated in Manusmriti that those who talks about astrology (predictive) must be expelled from the gathering of learned. Since you assume the two to be identical, not much purpose will be served in answering your blog<<<<<<< So if you want to say that Sun, Moon, Venus etc. of the sages were different from the Sun, Moon, Venus etc., which we used to see, then it will be a new theory. I think you will not say like this. At the most you can say that we may treat the Sun as a star but it was planet according to the sages. In this regard I have already explained that our sages were not aware with the concept of solar system so they may know which is planet and which is star. But it makes no difference till we take it as a developmental process. I am always giving a detailed reply though much more remains left in my mind. Now it is upto you as to whether you want to continue or not and whether you or other member / moderator is willing to give reply of my earlier blog, mails or not (not after reading my book). But I will continue to reply if there may be slightest defence or question. Otherwise your moderator will say that I provoke and ran away from direct discussion. Now I can only wait and see for any message from the group. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain (Reader may directly write to me on my email) 3-12-2007 Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar wrote: Dear Sanat, It is interesting that, in your opinion, though the modern day scientists that you adore so much, change the definition of what in their view should be termed a planet, their views are to be taken as sacrosanct. However if the sages have not changed their views of what should be the definition of graha, for thousands of years, are to be called primitive. I do not want to enter in to mere semantics but there is a difference in the way planet is defined by western astronomers and the manner in which a graha is defined by the sages who laid the foundation of Jyotish. Since you assume the two to be identical, not much purpose will be served in answering your blog in the way of advancing the knowledge of astrology which is the purpose of this list. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: Dear Chandrashekhar. Thanks for your mail. Though you have not replied the points raised in my blog. But you raised question about Pluto. I think either you are not aware with the circumstances as to why it was treated as planet and why removed from the group or you are checking my knowledge. So let me first gave short answer to your question. It was concept in the Primitive age that every movable body among the fixed stars is planet. On the basis of the then knowledge and experience Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were treated as planets. Remember Sun and Moon was treated as planets by our sages and not a star or satellite, which astrologers are now propagating in the name of astrology. On the basis of this definition an orbiting body Uranus found by William Herschel in 1781 was known as a planet. In continuity of this discovery, Ceres planet discovered followed by discoveries of Pallas, Juno, Vesta, Astraea, Neptune. Clyde Tom Baugh discovered Pluto planet (diameter 2320 km) on 13-3-1930 in the Kuiper belt, In 2005, Brown discovered 2003UB313, which was bigger then Pluto and it was thought to have a proper definition of planet. Remember that none of these planets were discovered by the astrologers of India, because all of them were busy in befooling the general public in the name of forecast and only on the good name of sages. It was defined in 2006 by the union of 9000 astronomers that any moving body will be planet if it has cleared other small bodies around its orbit. Some planets have not cleared this third condition hence Pluto including Ceres, Pallas, Charon, Quaoar, Sedna, Jena etc. bodies could not be treated as planet and another category of Dwarf planet other then star, planet, satellite was created to accommodate all these orbiting bodies. Now Pluto is known as Dwarf planet number 134340. Now according to new definition Sun has eight planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune). So will you please come forward and intimate me as to when are you and other astrologers are going to use Uranus & Neptune in Vinshottary dasha, exalted, friendship etc. again in the name of sages. I think I have given a short brief about the Pluto. Now I am sure that you will like to answer my blog point wise. Thanks, Sanat Sanatkumar_jain Vedic Astrologyandhealing , Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar@> wrote: Dear Sanatkumar, Would you throw some light on why in the first instance Pluto was classified by the modern and advanced astronomers as a planet and only recently declassified from that status, before you question the primitive (your words not mine) concept that gave the principles, that are being used by even those who claim to have invented new methods of astrological predictions. Chandrashekhar. sanat2221 wrote: ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum. At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ? Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning........... 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ? Based on the position of army in the battle field........... 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ? Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night...... 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ? Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart? On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realise that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe. Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). You can realize that this is revolutionary book and will change the face of predictive astrology in due course. If you interested to know more about the book or description of various chapters then you may send email to me. The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836> http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar%> 20jain & TAG= & CID= http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away). To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and http://www.randi.org <http://www.randi.org> Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. I will like to have your critical comments for further interaction on my email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> . It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). Sanat Kumar Jain Gwalior Reader may directly write to me on my email instead of creating problems to moderator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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