horoscope of lord rama

November 11, 2007

Dear Kishoreji,

I do not mean to enter this thread actively, but

just for once. Your mails makes sense.

I appreciate your return mails to explain

what and why You have written with Logic.

I had actually written same points in another mail

in affirmation to Your mail , but did not post

for fear of interferance. Yes Mercury is the main

significator for speech and Jupiter the

natural significator or karaka for wealth

denoted by the 2nd house. I would not

relate it to speech rather eating habits (and

topics of interest while speaking) etc.

Venus stands for face if we take the natural

karakas or karakatwa factor.

In this individual Horoscope though the karakatwa

goes to Sun as Lord of 2nd House. But the shloka

is not talking of the individual Lordships

I suppose, but of natural Significators. As Sun

cannot come in the Lagna of course.

regards,

Bhaskar.

, " kishore patnaik "

<kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

>

> Dear Marg,

>

> Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all

these

> years?

>

> Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my

replies and in

> any case, I am not comprehensive.

>

> 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended

to convey

> that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also

imply

> that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna

rises in

> purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord

of Vak. I

> also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that

Venus is a

> contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being

chosen to

> be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am

willing to

> look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from

classics.

>

> My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually

speech-

> the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a

sentence.

> Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks-

orator.

> Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker.

>

> However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc.

>

> The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the

signficator for

> knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this

> significance.

>

> As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually

> impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami

day.

>

> 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully

defined and

> was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no

reference to

> the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that

the Moon

> merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada''

was the

> way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is

why I asked

> about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really

imply

> moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the

constellation

> which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation

rising

> which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions

of

> nakshatras were a later development.

>

> My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do

not know

> how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to

be in the

> 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun

in Aries,

> you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into

> punarvasu's earlier padas.

> Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during

vedic and

> ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the

arudha system

> but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi

system much.

> In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of

the year

> based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as

> interpolation.

>

> 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern

practise

> surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there

were

> originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27:

>

> My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular

system of

> stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the

Jaudhi

> system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27

stars.

> Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of

stars is

> only 27.

>

> Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star.

it is the

> specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for

any work

> to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the

gochara,

> the planetary positions.

>

> Hope I am clear,

>

> regards,

>

> kishore patnaik

> 98492 70729

>

> >

> > -

> > kishore patnaik

> > <%40>

> > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM

> > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

> >

> > Dear Marg,

> >

> > Good to read your mail.

> >

> > Bad things first:

> >

> > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day.

This is so

> > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas

Mercury

> > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72

degrees- thus

> > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a

sign but

> > here

> > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to

be

> > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus.

> >

> > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It

starts at

> > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5

muhurtha.

> > As

> > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every

> > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in

pisces and

> > lagna falling in cancer

> >

> > Now, the good things:

> >

> > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the

cosmological

> > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find

a spark

> > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's

birth, though

> > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to

Heavens

> > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's

times.

> > Please fill me up.

> >

> > Thnks for the mail once again,.

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> > 98492 70729

> >

> > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore

> > > Please would you identify the source of your information?

> > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation

in, and

> > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury?

> > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so

Venus as

> > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon.

> > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is

ruled by

> > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord

of Vak

> > would

> > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely?

> > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't

abhijit

> > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the

moon's

> > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing

attention to an

> > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the

expected

> > usual

> > > distance between sun and moon on navami?

> > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a

brilliant

> > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is

during the

> > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku,

king of the

> > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an

allegory

> > of

> > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you

think?

> > >

> > > best wishes

> > > Margaret

> > >

> > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM

> > > Horoscope of Lord Rama

> > >

> > > Dear all,

> > >

> > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few

days. I am

> > > giving below the slokas connected with

> > > the birth :

> > >

> > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH |

> > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8

> > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu |

> > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9

> > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam |

> > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10

> > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam |

> > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18-

11

> > >

> > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on

completion;

> > > R^ituuNaam

> > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then;

dvaadashe

> > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra

month

> > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the

day

> > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa

uccha

> > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing;

karkaTe

> > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when

Speech's,

> > Lord

> > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when

raising ï¿½

> > > ascending, advancing daytime ï¿½ abhijit lagna; kausalyaa=

Queen Kausalya;

> > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam=

by all,

> > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes,

along with;

> > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa

> > bhaagam=

> > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty,

delight of;

> > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed;

rakta

> > oSTam=

> > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama

as;

> > putram=

> > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth.

> > >

> > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear:

> > >

> > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami

> > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra

> > > 3. The lagna is Cancer

> > > 4. Moon is in lagna

> > >

> > > The following two points are to be discussed.

> > >

> > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be

vakpati. Is

> > it

> > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury

could not be

> > > with Moon on a Navami day.

> > >

> > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or

> > > uccha(exalted)

> > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets

which are

> > in

> > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain

> > >

> > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and

Saturn. While

> > the

> > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three

planets

> > places

> > > can be fixed only by discussion

> > >

> > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer

on a

> > > navami

> > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108

degrees.

> > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the

place of

> > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries.

> > >

> > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after

hearing

> > from

> > > all of you.

> > >

> > > with best regards,

> > >

> > > kishore patnaik

> > > 98492 70729

> > >

November 11, 2007

Hi Again

First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on navami,

but not with moon on navami during month of chitra!

I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice, a different

matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on this .

How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are talking about? At

no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred to in the piece you quote?

In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the constellations

which were used to monitor the movement of the planets. These are composed of

the brightest stars along the ecliptic path, and as the moons path is wider than

the sun's path it was easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the

constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the coincidence of as

above so below. They noted which stars were rising on the ascendant as this was

the best indicator for monitoring movements of planets, which is why I can

accept purnavasu as rising with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is

in purnavasu.

What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation at the time

of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I would have thought that

in Chitra month it automatically follows that the first quarter moon--navami

always falls when sun has just entered Aries?

It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we now perceive

them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was the constellations which

stood out most in the sky and were used and it is nakshatra which defines the

constellations, not the rasi. The rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic

concepts during contact with jyotishes with Greek culture.

According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 nakshatras, not 27,

and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just another nakshatra measurement

which took into account the fact, pre zodiac usage, that constellations do not

form a coherent division into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was

dropped to make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac.

I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house the moon just

because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do I understand why a

reference to pada is being interpeted at all when it seems more likely to be

saying that it is the ascendant is in purnavasu? Have I missed something or has

something not been included in the translation? Also, would you please identify

the source of your interpretation --thank you

best wishes

Margaret

-

kishore patnaik

Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM

Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

Dear Marg,

Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all these

years?

Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my replies and in

any case, I am not comprehensive.

1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended to convey

that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also imply

that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna rises in

purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord of Vak. I

also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that Venus is a

contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to

be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to

look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics.

My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually speech-

the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a sentence.

Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- orator.

Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker.

However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc.

The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the signficator for

knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this

significance.

As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually

impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami day.

2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully defined and

was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no reference to

the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that the Moon

merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' was the

way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is why I asked

about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really imply

moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the constellation

which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation rising

which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions of

nakshatras were a later development.

My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do not know

how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to be in the

4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun in Aries,

you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into

punarvasu's earlier padas.

Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during vedic and

ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the arudha system

but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi system much.

In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of the year

based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as

interpolation.

3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern practise

surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there were

originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27:

My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular system of

stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the Jaudhi

system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27 stars.

Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of stars is

only 27.

Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. it is the

specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for any work

to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the gochara,

the planetary positions.

Hope I am clear,

regards,

kishore patnaik

98492 70729

>

> -

> kishore patnaik

> <%40>

> Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM

> Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

>

> Dear Marg,

>

> Good to read your mail.

>

> Bad things first:

>

> 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. This is so

> since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas Mercury

> can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 degrees- thus

> venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a sign but

> here

> moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to be

> jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus.

>

> 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It starts at

> the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 muhurtha.

> As

> every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every

> possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in pisces and

> lagna falling in cancer

>

> Now, the good things:

>

> 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the cosmological

> meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find a spark

> 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's birth, though

> trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to Heavens

> bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's times.

> Please fill me up.

>

> Thnks for the mail once again,.

>

> Kishore patnaik

> 98492 70729

>

> On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore

> > Please would you identify the source of your information?

> > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation in, and

> > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury?

> > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so Venus as

> > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon.

> > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is ruled by

> > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord of Vak

> would

> > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely?

> > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't abhijit

> > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the moon's

> > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing attention to an

> > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the expected

> usual

> > distance between sun and moon on navami?

> > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a brilliant

> > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is during the

> > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, king of the

> > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an allegory

> of

> > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you think?

> >

> > best wishes

> > Margaret

> >

> > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM

> > Horoscope of Lord Rama

> >

> > Dear all,

> >

> > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am

> > giving below the slokas connected with

> > the birth :

> >

> > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH |

> > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8

> > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu |

> > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9

> > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam |

> > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10

> > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam |

> > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18-11

> >

> > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion;

> > R^ituuNaam

> > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe

> > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month

> > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day

> > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha

> > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe

> > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's,

> Lord

> > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising ï¿½

> > ascending, advancing daytime ï¿½ abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya;

> > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all,

> > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with;

> > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa

> bhaagam=

> > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of;

> > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta

> oSTam=

> > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as;

> putram=

> > the son; ajanayat= gave birth.

> >

> > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear:

> >

> > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami

> > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra

> > 3. The lagna is Cancer

> > 4. Moon is in lagna

> >

> > The following two points are to be discussed.

> >

> > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is

> it

> > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be

> > with Moon on a Navami day.

> >

> > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or

> > uccha(exalted)

> > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are

> in

> > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain

> >

> > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While

> the

> > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets

> places

> > can be fixed only by discussion

> >

> > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a

> > navami

> > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees.

> > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of

> > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries.

> >

> > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing

> from

> > all of you.

> >

> > with best regards,

> >

> > kishore patnaik

> > 98492 70729

> >

November 11, 2007

The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the

ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac

in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for

the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House

division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must have

employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus to

form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means

can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course

this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at

astrology, they do, but only on character personality

generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians and

can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu may

fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh

times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the

assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their padas

distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth is .,

that the Westerners have given this)

'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya

aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu "

Meaning -

The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around

the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children

in pairs, day and night.

I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand.

This is highly advanced.

regards,

Bhaskar.

, " Marg " <margie9 wrote:

>

> Hi Again

> First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on

navami,

> but not with moon on navami during month of chitra!

> I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice,

a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on

this .

> How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are

talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred

to in the piece you quote?

> In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the

constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the

planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the ecliptic

path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was

easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the

constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the

coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were rising

on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring

movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising

with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu.

>

> What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation

at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I

would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows that

the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just entered

Aries?

>

> It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we

now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was

the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used and

it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The

rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during contact

with jyotishes with Greek culture.

>

> According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28

nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just

another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre

zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division

into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to

make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac.

> I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house

the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do

I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all when

it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in

purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been included

in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of

your interpretation --thank you

>

> best wishes

> Margaret

>

> -

> kishore patnaik

>

> Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM

> Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

>

> Dear Marg,

>

> Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you

all these

> years?

>

> Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my

replies and in

> any case, I am not comprehensive.

>

> 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not

intended to convey

> that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not

also imply

> that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as

lagna rises in

> purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as

lord of Vak. I

> also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that

Venus is a

> contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter

being chosen to

> be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am

willing to

> look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from

classics.

>

> My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually

speech-

> the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a

sentence.

> Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks-

orator.

> Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker.

>

> However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc.

>

> The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the

signficator for

> knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this

> significance.

>

> As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is

virtually

> impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a

navami day.

>

> 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully

defined and

> was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no

reference to

> the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and

that the Moon

> merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada''

was the

> way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is

why I asked

> about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading

really imply

> moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the

constellation

> which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the

constellation rising

> which was considered important in vedic times surely, and

divisions of

> nakshatras were a later development.

>

> My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do

not know

> how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to

be in the

> 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place

sun in Aries,

> you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon

into

> punarvasu's earlier padas.

> Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs)

during vedic and

> ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the

arudha system

> but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi

system much.

> In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name

of the year

> based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as

> interpolation.

>

> 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a

modern practise

> surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there

were

> originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27:

>

> My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular

system of

> stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg.,

the Jaudhi

> system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only

27 stars.

> Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count

of stars is

> only 27.

>

> Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star.

it is the

> specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for

any work

> to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the

gochara,

> the planetary positions.

>

> Hope I am clear,

>

> regards,

>

> kishore patnaik

> 98492 70729

>

> >

> > -

> > kishore patnaik

> > <%

40>

> > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM

> > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

> >

> > Dear Marg,

> >

> > Good to read your mail.

> >

> > Bad things first:

> >

> > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day.

This is so

> > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or

more ,whereas Mercury

> > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72

degrees- thus

> > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a

sign but

> > here

> > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got

to be

> > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus.

> >

> > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon

falls.It starts at

> > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5

muhurtha.

> > As

> > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is

every

> > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in

pisces and

> > lagna falling in cancer

> >

> > Now, the good things:

> >

> > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the

cosmological

> > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I

find a spark

> > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's

birth, though

> > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to

Heavens

> > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's

times.

> > Please fill me up.

> >

> > Thnks for the mail once again,.

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> > 98492 70729

> >

> > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore

> > > Please would you identify the source of your information?

> > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation

in, and

> > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury?

> > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus,

so Venus as

> > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon.

> > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is

ruled by

> > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord

of Vak

> > would

> > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely?

> > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't

abhijit

> > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with

the moon's

> > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing

attention to an

> > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the

expected

> > usual

> > > distance between sun and moon on navami?

> > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana,

a brilliant

> > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is

during the

> > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku,

king of the

> > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an

allegory

> > of

> > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you

think?

> > >

> > > best wishes

> > > Margaret

> > >

> > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM

> > > Horoscope of Lord Rama

> > >

> > > Dear all,

> > >

> > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few

days. I am

> > > giving below the slokas connected with

> > > the birth :

> > >

> > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH |

> > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8

> > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu |

> > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9

> > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam |

> > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10

> > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam |

> > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-

18-11

> > >

> > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on

completion;

> > > R^ituuNaam

> > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then;

dvaadashe

> > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra

month

> > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of

the day

> > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa

uccha

> > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest,

positing; karkaTe

> > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when

Speech's,

> > Lord

> > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when

raising ï¿½

> > > ascending, advancing daytime ï¿½ abhijit lagna; kausalyaa=

Queen Kausalya;

> > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka

namaskR^itam= by all,

> > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes,

along with;

> > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu];

mahaa

> > bhaagam=

> > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty,

delight of;

> > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed;

rakta

> > oSTam=

> > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam=

Rama as;

> > putram=

> > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth.

> > >

> > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear:

> > >

> > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami

> > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra

> > > 3. The lagna is Cancer

> > > 4. Moon is in lagna

> > >

> > > The following two points are to be discussed.

> > >

> > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be

vakpati. Is

> > it

> > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury

could not be

> > > with Moon on a Navami day.

> > >

> > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or

> > > uccha(exalted)

> > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets

which are

> > in

> > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain

> > >

> > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and

Saturn. While

> > the

> > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three

planets

> > places

> > > can be fixed only by discussion

> > >

> > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in

cancer on a

> > > navami

> > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than

108 degrees.

> > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus,

the place of

> > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries.

> > >

> > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after

hearing

> > from

> > > all of you.

> > >

> > > with best regards,

> > >

> > > kishore patnaik

> > > 98492 70729

> > >

November 11, 2007

Another verse from the Rigveda to confirm what I said in

my previous mail.

" Panchpadam Pitram Dwadashakritim diva ahu :

pare ardhe purishinam .

athame anya upre vichakshanam saptachakram

shatthar ahurripitam . "

(Rik-1-164-12)

I may have written above wrongly.

but the Sanskrit scholar would understand.

I can produce 3-4 more shlokas like the above

to denote that the ancient Hindus knew

the division of the Zodiac divided by 12.

I challenge anyone here to prove that the Ancient

Indians never knew about the 12 partitions of the

Zodiac, and they must first prove that the

Westerners have originated this concept first.

Authenticity is required in the challenge,

and not hearsay.

regards/Bhaskar.

, " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish

wrote:

>

> The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the

> ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac

> in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for

> the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House

> division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must

have

> employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus

to

> form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means

> can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course

> this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at

> astrology, they do, but only on character personality

> generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians

and

> can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu

may

> fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh

> times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the

> assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their

padas

> distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth

is .,

> that the Westerners have given this)

>

> 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya

> aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu "

>

> Meaning -

> The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around

> the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children

> in pairs, day and night.

>

> I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand.

> This is highly advanced.

>

> regards,

> Bhaskar.

>

, " Marg " <margie9@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Again

> > First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon

on

> navami,

> > but not with moon on navami during month of chitra!

> > I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means

voice,

> a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree

on

> this .

> > How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are

> talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge

referred

> to in the piece you quote?

> > In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the

> constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the

> planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the

ecliptic

> path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was

> easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the

> constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the

> coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were

rising

> on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring

> movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising

> with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu.

> >

> > What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces

constellation

> at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I

> would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows

that

> the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just

entered

> Aries?

> >

> > It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we

> now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It

was

> the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used

and

> it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The

> rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during

contact

> with jyotishes with Greek culture.

> >

> > According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28

> nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just

> another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre

> zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division

> into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to

> make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac.

> > I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house

> the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor

do

> I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all

when

> it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in

> purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been

included

> in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of

> your interpretation --thank you

> >

> > best wishes

> > Margaret

> >

> > -

> > kishore patnaik

> >

> > Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM

> > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

> >

> > Dear Marg,

> >

> > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you

> all these

> > years?

> >

> > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my

> replies and in

> > any case, I am not comprehensive.

> >

> > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not

> intended to convey

> > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not

> also imply

> > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as

> lagna rises in

> > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as

> lord of Vak. I

> > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel

that

> Venus is a

> > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter

> being chosen to

> > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am

> willing to

> > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from

> classics.

> >

> > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for

actually

> speech-

> > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a

> sentence.

> > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who

speaks-

> orator.

> > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker.

> >

> > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc.

> >

> > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the

> signficator for

> > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this

> > significance.

> >

> > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is

> virtually

> > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a

> navami day.

> >

> > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been

fully

> defined and

> > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no

> reference to

> > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and

> that the Moon

> > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in

any ''pada''

> was the

> > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This

is

> why I asked

> > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading

> really imply

> > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the

> constellation

> > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the

> constellation rising

> > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and

> divisions of

> > nakshatras were a later development.

> >

> > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we

do

> not know

> > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon

to

> be in the

> > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place

> sun in Aries,

> > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon

> into

> > punarvasu's earlier padas.

> > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs)

> during vedic and

> > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the

> arudha system

> > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi

> system much.

> > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the

name

> of the year

> > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it

as

> > interpolation.

> >

> > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a

> modern practise

> > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying

there

> were

> > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27:

> >

> > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular

> system of

> > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg.,

> the Jaudhi

> > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention

only

> 27 stars.

> > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the

count

> of stars is

> > only 27.

> >

> > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet

star.

> it is the

> > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious

for

> any work

> > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and

the

> gochara,

> > the planetary positions.

> >

> > Hope I am clear,

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > kishore patnaik

> > 98492 70729

> >

> > >

> > > -

> > > kishore patnaik

> > > <%

> 40>

> > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM

> > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

> > >

> > > Dear Marg,

> > >

> > > Good to read your mail.

> > >

> > > Bad things first:

> > >

> > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami

day.

> This is so

> > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or

> more ,whereas Mercury

> > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72

> degrees- thus

> > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a

> sign but

> > > here

> > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has

got

> to be

> > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not

venus.

> > >

> > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon

> falls.It starts at

> > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till

8.5

> muhurtha.

> > > As

> > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is

> every

> > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun

in

> pisces and

> > > lagna falling in cancer

> > >

> > > Now, the good things:

> > >

> > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the

> cosmological

> > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I

> find a spark

> > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's

> birth, though

> > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent

to

> Heavens

> > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during

Rama's

> times.

> > > Please fill me up.

> > >

> > > Thnks for the mail once again,.

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > > 98492 70729

> > >

> > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@ <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore

> > > > Please would you identify the source of your information?

> > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the

interpretation

> in, and

> > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or

Mercury?

> > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus,

> so Venus as

> > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon.

> > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which

is

> ruled by

> > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus

Lord

> of Vak

> > > would

> > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely?

> > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't

> abhijit

> > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with

> the moon's

> > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing

> attention to an

> > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect

the

> expected

> > > usual

> > > > distance between sun and moon on navami?

> > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of

Ramayana,

> a brilliant

> > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is

> during the

> > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by

Trisanku,

> king of the

> > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is

an

> allegory

> > > of

> > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't

you

> think?

> > > >

> > > > best wishes

> > > > Margaret

> > > >

> > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM

> > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama

> > > >

> > > > Dear all,

> > > >

> > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few

> days. I am

> > > > giving below the slokas connected with

> > > > the birth :

> > > >

> > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH |

> > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8

> > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu |

> > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9

> > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam |

> > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10

> > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam |

> > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam ||

1-

> 18-11

> > > >

> > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on

> completion;

> > > > R^ituuNaam

> > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH=

then;

> dvaadashe

> > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra

> month

> > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of

> the day

> > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu

swa

> uccha

> > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest,

> positing; karkaTe

> > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when

> Speech's,

> > > Lord

> > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when

> raising ï¿½

> > > > ascending, advancing daytime ï¿½ abhijit lagna; kausalyaa=

> Queen Kausalya;

> > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka

> namaskR^itam= by all,

> > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine,

attributes,

> along with;

> > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu];

> mahaa

> > > bhaagam=

> > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty,

> delight of;

> > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy,

armed;

> rakta

> > > oSTam=

> > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam=

> Rama as;

> > > putram=

> > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth.

> > > >

> > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami

> > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra

> > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer

> > > > 4. Moon is in lagna

> > > >

> > > > The following two points are to be discussed.

> > > >

> > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be

> vakpati. Is

> > > it

> > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury

> could not be

> > > > with Moon on a Navami day.

> > > >

> > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own)

or

> > > > uccha(exalted)

> > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five

planets

> which are

> > > in

> > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain

> > > >

> > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and

> Saturn. While

> > > the

> > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three

> planets

> > > places

> > > > can be fixed only by discussion

> > > >

> > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in

> cancer on a

> > > > navami

> > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than

> 108 degrees.

> > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus,

> the place of

> > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or

aries.

> > > >

> > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions

after

> hearing

> > > from

> > > > all of you.

> > > >

> > > > with best regards,

> > > >

> > > > kishore patnaik

> > > > 98492 70729

> > > >

November 11, 2007

Hello Bhaskhar,

My source is actually Balakrisna for the astronomical info. His site is on geo

cities, and he is an Indian astronomer who does not believe that the rasi were

used in vedic times, a theory I have read in many Indian books now.

He also is the one who suggests that it was the Greek influence on Indian

astrology which was instrumental in the zodiac being introduced into Indian

astrology.

In the west I haven't met anyone who is concerned about who first ''found'' the

zodiac, though there are many academic and worthy studies into the ancient

history of it across cultures and without bias or prejudice.

I have tried to resist the temptation to detail the many accurate predictions

made by western astrologers, mostly because I don't have any real interest in

doing so, also because I have better things to do, in addition I would rather

talk about charts and techniques than discuss which system is better.

However, to those people who believe that western astrologers cannot predict

accurately I would like them in future to first of all tell which western

astrologers they know of or have studied, and then which predictions did these

astrologers make which didn't come true?

This way we can be assured that you have real expertise in passing the opinion

that western astrologers cannot predict accurately.

I have read BK 1 and the source you quote, and yes it does seem there is a

division into twelve of the wheel mentioned in the Vedas. Perhaps you would like

to convey to Balakrisna at geocities.com vijayabalak/stars/nakshatra that this

is so?

best wishes

Margaret

-

Bhaskar

Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:08 PM

Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama

Another verse from the Rigveda to confirm what I said in

my previous mail.

" Panchpadam Pitram Dwadashakritim diva ahu :

pare ardhe purishinam .

athame anya upre vichakshanam saptachakram

shatthar ahurripitam . "

(Rik-1-164-12)

I may have written above wrongly.

but the Sanskrit scholar would understand.

I can produce 3-4 more shlokas like the above

to denote that the ancient Hindus knew

the division of the Zodiac divided by 12.

I challenge anyone here to prove that the Ancient

Indians never knew about the 12 partitions of the

Zodiac, and they must first prove that the

Westerners have originated this concept first.

Authenticity is required in the challenge,

and not hearsay.

regards/Bhaskar.

, " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish

wrote:

>

> The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the

> ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac

> in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for

> the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House

> division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must

have

> employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus

to

> form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means

> can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course

> this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at

> astrology, they do, but only on character personality

> generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians

and

> can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu

may

> fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh

> times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the

> assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their

padas

> distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth

is .,

> that the Westerners have given this)

>

> 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya

> aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu "

>

> Meaning -

> The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around

> the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children

> in pairs, day and night.

>

> I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand.

> This is highly advanced.

>

> regards,

> Bhaskar.

>

> , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: