Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Dear Kishoreji, I do not mean to enter this thread actively, but just for once. Your mails makes sense. I appreciate your return mails to explain what and why You have written with Logic. I had actually written same points in another mail in affirmation to Your mail , but did not post for fear of interferance. Yes Mercury is the main significator for speech and Jupiter the natural significator or karaka for wealth denoted by the 2nd house. I would not relate it to speech rather eating habits (and topics of interest while speaking) etc. Venus stands for face if we take the natural karakas or karakatwa factor. In this individual Horoscope though the karakatwa goes to Sun as Lord of 2nd House. But the shloka is not talking of the individual Lordships I suppose, but of natural Significators. As Sun cannot come in the Lagna of course. regards, Bhaskar. , " kishore patnaik " <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all these > years? > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my replies and in > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended to convey > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also imply > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna rises in > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord of Vak. I > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that Venus is a > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually speech- > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a sentence. > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- orator. > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the signficator for > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > significance. > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami day. > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully defined and > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no reference to > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that the Moon > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' was the > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is why I asked > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really imply > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the constellation > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation rising > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions of > nakshatras were a later development. > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do not know > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to be in the > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun in Aries, > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into > punarvasu's earlier padas. > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during vedic and > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the arudha system > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi system much. > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of the year > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as > interpolation. > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern practise > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there were > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular system of > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the Jaudhi > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27 stars. > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of stars is > only 27. > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. it is the > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for any work > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the gochara, > the planetary positions. > > Hope I am clear, > > regards, > > kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > - > > kishore patnaik > > <%40> > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > Bad things first: > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. This is so > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas Mercury > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 degrees- thus > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a sign but > > here > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to be > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It starts at > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 muhurtha. > > As > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in pisces and > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the cosmological > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find a spark > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's birth, though > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to Heavens > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's times. > > Please fill me up. > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > Kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation in, and > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so Venus as > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is ruled by > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord of Vak > > would > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't abhijit > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the moon's > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing attention to an > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the expected > > usual > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a brilliant > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is during the > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, king of the > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an allegory > > of > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you think? > > > > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > the birth : > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18- 11 > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion; > > > R^ituuNaam > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's, > > Lord > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising � > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya; > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all, > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with; > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa > > bhaagam= > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of; > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta > > oSTam= > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as; > > putram= > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is > > it > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > uccha(exalted) > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are > > in > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While > > the > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets > > places > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a > > > navami > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees. > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing > > from > > > all of you. > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hi Again First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on navami, but not with moon on navami during month of chitra! I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice, a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on this . How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred to in the piece you quote? In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the ecliptic path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were rising on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu. What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows that the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just entered Aries? It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used and it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during contact with jyotishes with Greek culture. According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac. I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all when it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been included in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of your interpretation --thank you best wishes Margaret - kishore patnaik Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Dear Marg, Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all these years? Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my replies and in any case, I am not comprehensive. 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended to convey that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also imply that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna rises in purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord of Vak. I also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that Venus is a contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually speech- the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a sentence. Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- orator. Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the signficator for knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this significance. As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami day. 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully defined and was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no reference to the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that the Moon merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' was the way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is why I asked about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really imply moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the constellation which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation rising which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions of nakshatras were a later development. My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do not know how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to be in the 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun in Aries, you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into punarvasu's earlier padas. Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during vedic and ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the arudha system but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi system much. In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of the year based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as interpolation. 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern practise surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there were originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular system of stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the Jaudhi system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27 stars. Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of stars is only 27. Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. it is the specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for any work to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the gochara, the planetary positions. Hope I am clear, regards, kishore patnaik 98492 70729 > > > - > kishore patnaik > <%40> > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > Dear Marg, > > Good to read your mail. > > Bad things first: > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. This is so > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas Mercury > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 degrees- thus > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a sign but > here > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to be > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It starts at > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 muhurtha. > As > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in pisces and > lagna falling in cancer > > Now, the good things: > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the cosmological > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find a spark > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's birth, though > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to Heavens > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's times. > Please fill me up. > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > Kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation in, and > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so Venus as > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is ruled by > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord of Vak > would > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't abhijit > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the moon's > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing attention to an > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the expected > usual > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a brilliant > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is during the > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, king of the > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an allegory > of > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you think? > > > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > Dear all, > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am > > giving below the slokas connected with > > the birth : > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18-11 > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion; > > R^ituuNaam > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's, > Lord > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising � > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya; > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all, > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with; > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa > bhaagam= > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of; > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta > oSTam= > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as; > putram= > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is > it > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > uccha(exalted) > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are > in > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While > the > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets > places > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a > > navami > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees. > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing > from > > all of you. > > > > with best regards, > > > > kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must have employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus to form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at astrology, they do, but only on character personality generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians and can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu may fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their padas distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth is ., that the Westerners have given this) 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu " Meaning - The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children in pairs, day and night. I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand. This is highly advanced. regards, Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Again > First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on navami, > but not with moon on navami during month of chitra! > I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice, a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on this . > How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred to in the piece you quote? > In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the ecliptic path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were rising on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu. > > What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows that the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just entered Aries? > > It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used and it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during contact with jyotishes with Greek culture. > > According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac. > I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all when it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been included in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of your interpretation --thank you > > > best wishes > Margaret > > > > > > - > kishore patnaik > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > Dear Marg, > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all these > years? > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my replies and in > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended to convey > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also imply > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna rises in > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord of Vak. I > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that Venus is a > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being chosen to > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am willing to > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from classics. > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually speech- > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a sentence. > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- orator. > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the signficator for > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > significance. > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami day. > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully defined and > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no reference to > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that the Moon > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' was the > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is why I asked > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really imply > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the constellation > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation rising > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions of > nakshatras were a later development. > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do not know > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to be in the > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun in Aries, > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into > punarvasu's earlier padas. > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during vedic and > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the arudha system > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi system much. > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of the year > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as > interpolation. > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern practise > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there were > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular system of > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the Jaudhi > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27 stars. > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of stars is > only 27. > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. it is the > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for any work > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the gochara, > the planetary positions. > > Hope I am clear, > > regards, > > kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > - > > kishore patnaik > > <% 40> > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > Bad things first: > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. This is so > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas Mercury > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 degrees- thus > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a sign but > > here > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to be > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It starts at > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 muhurtha. > > As > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in pisces and > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the cosmological > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find a spark > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's birth, though > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to Heavens > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's times. > > Please fill me up. > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > Kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation in, and > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so Venus as > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is ruled by > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord of Vak > > would > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't abhijit > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the moon's > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing attention to an > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the expected > > usual > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a brilliant > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is during the > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, king of the > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an allegory > > of > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you think? > > > > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > the birth : > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- 18-11 > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion; > > > R^ituuNaam > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's, > > Lord > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising � > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya; > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all, > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with; > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa > > bhaagam= > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of; > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta > > oSTam= > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as; > > putram= > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is > > it > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > uccha(exalted) > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are > > in > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While > > the > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets > > places > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a > > > navami > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees. > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing > > from > > > all of you. > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Another verse from the Rigveda to confirm what I said in my previous mail. " Panchpadam Pitram Dwadashakritim diva ahu : pare ardhe purishinam . athame anya upre vichakshanam saptachakram shatthar ahurripitam . " (Rik-1-164-12) I may have written above wrongly. but the Sanskrit scholar would understand. I can produce 3-4 more shlokas like the above to denote that the ancient Hindus knew the division of the Zodiac divided by 12. I challenge anyone here to prove that the Ancient Indians never knew about the 12 partitions of the Zodiac, and they must first prove that the Westerners have originated this concept first. Authenticity is required in the challenge, and not hearsay. regards/Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the > ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac > in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for > the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House > division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must have > employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus to > form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means > can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course > this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at > astrology, they do, but only on character personality > generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians and > can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu may > fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh > times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the > assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their padas > distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth is ., > that the Westerners have given this) > > 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya > aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu " > > Meaning - > The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around > the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children > in pairs, day and night. > > I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand. > This is highly advanced. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Again > > First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on > navami, > > but not with moon on navami during month of chitra! > > I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice, > a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on > this . > > How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are > talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred > to in the piece you quote? > > In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the > constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the > planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the ecliptic > path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was > easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the > constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the > coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were rising > on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring > movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising > with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu. > > > > What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation > at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I > would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows that > the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just entered > Aries? > > > > It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we > now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was > the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used and > it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The > rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during contact > with jyotishes with Greek culture. > > > > According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 > nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just > another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre > zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division > into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to > make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac. > > I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house > the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do > I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all when > it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in > purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been included > in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of > your interpretation --thank you > > > > > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kishore patnaik > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you > all these > > years? > > > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my > replies and in > > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > intended to convey > > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not > also imply > > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as > lagna rises in > > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as > lord of Vak. I > > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that > Venus is a > > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter > being chosen to > > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am > willing to > > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from > classics. > > > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually > speech- > > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a > sentence. > > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- > orator. > > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the > signficator for > > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > > significance. > > > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is > virtually > > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a > navami day. > > > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > defined and > > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no > reference to > > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and > that the Moon > > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' > was the > > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is > why I asked > > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading > really imply > > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the > constellation > > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the > constellation rising > > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and > divisions of > > nakshatras were a later development. > > > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do > not know > > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to > be in the > > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place > sun in Aries, > > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon > into > > punarvasu's earlier padas. > > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) > during vedic and > > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the > arudha system > > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi > system much. > > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name > of the year > > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as > > interpolation. > > > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > modern practise > > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there > were > > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular > system of > > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., > the Jaudhi > > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only > 27 stars. > > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count > of stars is > > only 27. > > > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. > it is the > > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for > any work > > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the > gochara, > > the planetary positions. > > > > Hope I am clear, > > > > regards, > > > > kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > <% > 40> > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > more ,whereas Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign but > > > here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got > to be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > falls.It starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > muhurtha. > > > As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > find a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@ <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > so Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord > of Vak > > > would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > the moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > expected > > > usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, > a brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > allegory > > > of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- > 18-11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > the day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa > uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > positing; karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > Speech's, > > > Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > namaskR^itam= by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > rakta > > > oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > Rama as; > > > putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > vakpati. Is > > > it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > which are > > > in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. While > > > the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > planets > > > places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > cancer on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > 108 degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > the place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > hearing > > > from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hello Bhaskhar, My source is actually Balakrisna for the astronomical info. His site is on geo cities, and he is an Indian astronomer who does not believe that the rasi were used in vedic times, a theory I have read in many Indian books now. He also is the one who suggests that it was the Greek influence on Indian astrology which was instrumental in the zodiac being introduced into Indian astrology. In the west I haven't met anyone who is concerned about who first ''found'' the zodiac, though there are many academic and worthy studies into the ancient history of it across cultures and without bias or prejudice. I have tried to resist the temptation to detail the many accurate predictions made by western astrologers, mostly because I don't have any real interest in doing so, also because I have better things to do, in addition I would rather talk about charts and techniques than discuss which system is better. However, to those people who believe that western astrologers cannot predict accurately I would like them in future to first of all tell which western astrologers they know of or have studied, and then which predictions did these astrologers make which didn't come true? This way we can be assured that you have real expertise in passing the opinion that western astrologers cannot predict accurately. I have read BK 1 and the source you quote, and yes it does seem there is a division into twelve of the wheel mentioned in the Vedas. Perhaps you would like to convey to Balakrisna at geocities.com vijayabalak/stars/nakshatra that this is so? best wishes Margaret - Bhaskar Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:08 PM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Another verse from the Rigveda to confirm what I said in my previous mail. " Panchpadam Pitram Dwadashakritim diva ahu : pare ardhe purishinam . athame anya upre vichakshanam saptachakram shatthar ahurripitam . " (Rik-1-164-12) I may have written above wrongly. but the Sanskrit scholar would understand. I can produce 3-4 more shlokas like the above to denote that the ancient Hindus knew the division of the Zodiac divided by 12. I challenge anyone here to prove that the Ancient Indians never knew about the 12 partitions of the Zodiac, and they must first prove that the Westerners have originated this concept first. Authenticity is required in the challenge, and not hearsay. regards/Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the > ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac > in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for > the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House > division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must have > employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus to > form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means > can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course > this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at > astrology, they do, but only on character personality > generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians and > can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu may > fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh > times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the > assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their padas > distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth is ., > that the Westerners have given this) > > 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya > aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu " > > Meaning - > The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around > the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children > in pairs, day and night. > > I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand. > This is highly advanced. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Again > > First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon on > navami, > > but not with moon on navami during month of chitra! > > I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means voice, > a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree on > this . > > How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are > talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge referred > to in the piece you quote? > > In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the > constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the > planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the ecliptic > path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was > easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the > constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the > coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were rising > on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring > movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising > with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu. > > > > What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces constellation > at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I > would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows that > the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just entered > Aries? > > > > It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we > now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It was > the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used and > it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The > rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during contact > with jyotishes with Greek culture. > > > > According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 > nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just > another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre > zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division > into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to > make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac. > > I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house > the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor do > I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all when > it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in > purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been included > in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of > your interpretation --thank you > > > > > > best wishes > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > kishore patnaik > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you > all these > > years? > > > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my > replies and in > > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > intended to convey > > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not > also imply > > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as > lagna rises in > > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as > lord of Vak. I > > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that > Venus is a > > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter > being chosen to > > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am > willing to > > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from > classics. > > > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually > speech- > > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a > sentence. > > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- > orator. > > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the > signficator for > > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > > significance. > > > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is > virtually > > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a > navami day. > > > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > defined and > > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no > reference to > > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and > that the Moon > > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' > was the > > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is > why I asked > > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading > really imply > > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the > constellation > > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the > constellation rising > > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and > divisions of > > nakshatras were a later development. > > > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do > not know > > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to > be in the > > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place > sun in Aries, > > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon > into > > punarvasu's earlier padas. > > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) > during vedic and > > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the > arudha system > > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi > system much. > > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name > of the year > > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as > > interpolation. > > > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > modern practise > > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there > were > > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular > system of > > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., > the Jaudhi > > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only > 27 stars. > > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count > of stars is > > only 27. > > > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. > it is the > > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for > any work > > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the > gochara, > > the planetary positions. > > > > Hope I am clear, > > > > regards, > > > > kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > <% > 40> > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > more ,whereas Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign but > > > here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got > to be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > falls.It starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > muhurtha. > > > As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > find a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@ <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > so Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord > of Vak > > > would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > the moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > expected > > > usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, > a brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > allegory > > > of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1- > 18-11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > the day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa > uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > positing; karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > Speech's, > > > Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > namaskR^itam= by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > rakta > > > oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > Rama as; > > > putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > vakpati. Is > > > it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > which are > > > in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. While > > > the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > planets > > > places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > cancer on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > 108 degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > the place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > hearing > > > from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hello Marg, Well I am not talking about few Westerners like Alan Leo, HS Green, or E Parker, to name a few, whom I have always respected for their free flow of writings. I was talking in general about the way astrology is treated by the westerners. The invaders have been many in India, including the Mohammedans and the Greeks, due to which ours and theirs astrology got mixed up.No one has proof to suggest that our astrology was influenced by the Greeks. Cheiro (The famous Palmist )has given full credit to Indian astrology and proved that India has been the source for this Occult knowledge. He has also quoted instances from our Ancient History and given dates. But someone should have that hard bound autobiography which I purchased 20 years back. I agree that Rasis were not used by the ancients in India because we already had smaller divisions, and not because we never knew about the 12 parts of the Zodiac. The knowledge was there but not needed to be put in use. Neither am I concerned who started what first. But Your mail clearly mentioned that the Rasis were picked by the Indians from the westerners, which I hear from a lot many people, but most of them are foolish, so dont argue but leave them happy with their assumptions. You being knowledgable in astrology, and me being Indian, it hurts. Any way forget this episode. I have no wish or inclination to convey anything to anybody including Balkrishna (I have heard the name first time),whom you mentioned as an astronomer, if he is so, then he has no right to talk about astrology and comment on the originality of Rasis, or our astrology being borrowed from the Greeks,without studying or doing some research work first. I go overboard at times, when it comes to Vedic astrology,Hinduism, or Indianism, therefore please overlook those abrupt sentimental responses coming from me when I get touchy. Yes I do appreciate the westerners very much, otherwise for their deep study into whatever they get into, including astrology.But for predictive astrology I would prefer learning from the Indian Masters, save a few names mentioned above., who are of course present only through their books, which do form a important part of my Library, without doubt. regards, Bhaskar , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hello Bhaskhar, > > My source is actually Balakrisna for the astronomical info. His site is on geo cities, and he is an Indian astronomer who does not believe that the rasi were used in vedic times, a theory I have read in many Indian books now. > He also is the one who suggests that it was the Greek influence on Indian astrology which was instrumental in the zodiac being introduced into Indian astrology. > > In the west I haven't met anyone who is concerned about who first ''found'' the zodiac, though there are many academic and worthy studies into the ancient history of it across cultures and without bias or prejudice. > > I have tried to resist the temptation to detail the many accurate predictions made by western astrologers, mostly because I don't have any real interest in doing so, also because I have better things to do, in addition I would rather talk about charts and techniques than discuss which system is better. > > However, to those people who believe that western astrologers cannot predict accurately I would like them in future to first of all tell which western astrologers they know of or have studied, and then which predictions did these astrologers make which didn't come true? > This way we can be assured that you have real expertise in passing the opinion that western astrologers cannot predict accurately. > I have read BK 1 and the source you quote, and yes it does seem there is a division into twelve of the wheel mentioned in the Vedas. Perhaps you would like to convey to Balakrisna at geocities.com vijayabalak/stars/nakshatra that this is so? > best wishes > Margaret > > > - > Bhaskar > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:08 PM > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > Another verse from the Rigveda to confirm what I said in > my previous mail. > > " Panchpadam Pitram Dwadashakritim diva ahu : > pare ardhe purishinam . > athame anya upre vichakshanam saptachakram > shatthar ahurripitam . " > (Rik-1-164-12) > > I may have written above wrongly. > but the Sanskrit scholar would understand. > > I can produce 3-4 more shlokas like the above > to denote that the ancient Hindus knew > the division of the Zodiac divided by 12. > > I challenge anyone here to prove that the Ancient > Indians never knew about the 12 partitions of the > Zodiac, and they must first prove that the > Westerners have originated this concept first. > Authenticity is required in the challenge, > and not hearsay. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@> > wrote: > > > > > > The following Shloka would give the knowledge that the > > ancient Hindus knew the 12 divisions of the Zodiac > > in ancient times too. Nothing in astrology is new for > > the Hindus. Whatever is taken from the Westerners ( Placidus House > > division) must too have been a part of system which Hindus must > have > > employed at some time in the past, which is re-taken by the Hindus > to > > form another system of Progmostication, namely KP, but by no means > > can we say that the 12 divisions was not known to Hindus. Of course > > this does not imply that the westerners are not working hard at > > astrology, they do, but only on character personality > > generalisations, at which they are expert and better then Indians > and > > can provide pages of description about any native, which a Hindu > may > > fail at doing, but Hindus are a thousand times better, nay a Lakh > > times better at predictive astrology, which comes from the > > assimilation of knowledge of using the 27 divisions with their > padas > > distributed liberally between the 12 partitions, which the myth > is ., > > that the Westerners have given this) > > > > 'Dwadhasharam na hi tajjaray vavvartichakram paridhyamtrasya > > aaputra agne mithunaso atra saptashatani vishatischa tatasthu " > > > > Meaning - > > The wheel of Samvatsara having twelve parts turns round around > > the heavens. It knows no discontinuity and it bears 720 children > > in pairs, day and night. > > > > I can expand on this, but I doubt anyone would understand. > > This is highly advanced. > > > > regards, > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Again > > > First of all we need to make clear that Venus can rise with moon > on > > navami, > > > but not with moon on navami during month of chitra! > > > I'm still notconvinced Vak= speech as I was taught it means > voice, > > a different matter entirely, so we will have to agree to disagree > on > > this . > > > How does ''knowledge'' factor into the interpretation we are > > talking about? At no stage is the term or concept 'knowledge > referred > > to in the piece you quote? > > > In my understanding so far, during pre zodiac times it was the > > constellations which were used to monitor the movement of the > > planets. These are composed of the brightest stars along the > ecliptic > > path, and as the moons path is wider than the sun's path it was > > easier to single out the brightest stars which made up the > > constellations. This is how and why the rishis understood the > > coincidence of as above so below. They noted which stars were > rising > > on the ascendant as this was the best indicator for monitoring > > movements of planets, which is why I can accept purnavasu as rising > > with asc rather than it being indicated that moon is in purnavasu. > > > > > > What is impossible surely, is for sun to be in Pisces > constellation > > at the time of the crescent moon rising when purnavus is on asc? I > > would have thought that in Chitra month it automatically follows > that > > the first quarter moon--navami always falls when sun has just > entered > > Aries? > > > > > > It is more likely to be true that rasi was not defined in ways we > > now perceive them as no mention is made of these in the Vedas.It > was > > the constellations which stood out most in the sky and were used > and > > it is nakshatra which defines the constellations, not the rasi. The > > rasi is a western concept grafted onto vedic concepts during > contact > > with jyotishes with Greek culture. > > > > > > According to my astronomer contact, ancient seers did use 28 > > nakshatras, not 27, and he says quite clearly that abhijit was just > > another nakshatra measurement which took into account the fact, pre > > zodiac usage, that constellations do not form a coherent division > > into neat 30 degree spaces. The 28th constellation was dropped to > > make the 27 nakshatras fall in line with the western zodiac. > > > I don't understand why you say that the fourth pada should house > > the moon just because the reference to cancer is being used, Nor > do > > I understand why a reference to pada is being interpeted at all > when > > it seems more likely to be saying that it is the ascendant is in > > purnavasu? Have I missed something or has something not been > included > > in the translation? Also, would you please identify the source of > > your interpretation --thank you > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 3:38 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you > > all these > > > years? > > > > > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my > > replies and in > > > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > > > > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not > > intended to convey > > > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not > > also imply > > > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as > > lagna rises in > > > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as > > lord of Vak. I > > > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel > that > > Venus is a > > > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter > > being chosen to > > > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am > > willing to > > > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from > > classics. > > > > > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for > actually > > speech- > > > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a > > sentence. > > > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who > speaks- > > orator. > > > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > > > > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > > > > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the > > signficator for > > > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > > > significance. > > > > > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is > > virtually > > > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a > > navami day. > > > > > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been > fully > > defined and > > > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no > > reference to > > > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and > > that the Moon > > > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in > any ''pada'' > > was the > > > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This > is > > why I asked > > > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading > > really imply > > > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the > > constellation > > > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the > > constellation rising > > > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and > > divisions of > > > nakshatras were a later development. > > > > > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we > do > > not know > > > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon > to > > be in the > > > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place > > sun in Aries, > > > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon > > into > > > punarvasu's earlier padas. > > > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) > > during vedic and > > > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the > > arudha system > > > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi > > system much. > > > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the > name > > of the year > > > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it > as > > > interpolation. > > > > > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a > > modern practise > > > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying > there > > were > > > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular > > system of > > > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., > > the Jaudhi > > > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention > only > > 27 stars. > > > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the > count > > of stars is > > > only 27. > > > > > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet > star. > > it is the > > > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious > for > > any work > > > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and > the > > gochara, > > > the planetary positions. > > > > > > Hope I am clear, > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > <% > > 40> > > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami > day. > > This is so > > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or > > more ,whereas Mercury > > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > > degrees- thus > > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > > sign but > > > > here > > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has > got > > to be > > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not > venus. > > > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon > > falls.It starts at > > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till > 8.5 > > muhurtha. > > > > As > > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is > > every > > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun > in > > pisces and > > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > > cosmological > > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I > > find a spark > > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > > birth, though > > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent > to > > Heavens > > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during > Rama's > > times. > > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9@ <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the > interpretation > > in, and > > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or > Mercury? > > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, > > so Venus as > > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which > is > > ruled by > > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus > Lord > > of Vak > > > > would > > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > > abhijit > > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with > > the moon's > > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > > attention to an > > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect > the > > expected > > > > usual > > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of > Ramayana, > > a brilliant > > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > > during the > > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by > Trisanku, > > king of the > > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is > an > > allegory > > > > of > > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't > you > > think? > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > > days. I am > > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18- 8 > > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18- 10 > > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || > 1- > > 18-11 > > > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > > completion; > > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= > then; > > dvaadashe > > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > > month > > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of > > the day > > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu > swa > > uccha > > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, > > positing; karkaTe > > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > > Speech's, > > > > Lord > > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > > raising � > > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > > Queen Kausalya; > > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka > > namaskR^itam= by all, > > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, > attributes, > > along with; > > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; > > mahaa > > > > bhaagam= > > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > > delight of; > > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, > armed; > > rakta > > > > oSTam= > > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= > > Rama as; > > > > putram= > > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > > vakpati. Is > > > > it > > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > > could not be > > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) > or > > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five > planets > > which are > > > > in > > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > > Saturn. While > > > > the > > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > > planets > > > > places > > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in > > cancer on a > > > > > navami > > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than > > 108 degrees. > > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, > > the place of > > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or > aries. > > > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions > after > > hearing > > > > from > > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hi Marg, Please send them to my personal ID: krishna_1998 Thanks, Krishna Marg <margie9 wrote: Hi I can send these to personal e mail for anyone who wants them, as a safe attachment, it will have Krsnas chart too, there is only the charts no exact dates. - kishore patnaik Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:23 AM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Dear Marg, Can you please send me the relevant papers presented? regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 On 11/5/07, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > In September the British Association of Vedic Astrologers discussed Rama's > chart and Krsn'a chart during an international conference call. > Rama's chart was suggested to be Jup/Mon Cancer lagna, Sun Merucry tenth > house, Venus eleventh, Saturn fourth, Mars tenth, Rahu sixth house. > best wishes > M > > - > kishore patnaik > vedic astrology <vedic astrology%40> ; > <%40.\ com>; > Astro_Remedies <Astro_Remedies%40> ; > <%40> ; > lalkitab <lalkitab%40> ; > naastrology <naastrology%40> ; > <%40> ; > <%40> ; > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> ; > Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad <Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad%40.\ com> > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > Dear all, > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am > giving below the slokas connected with > the birth : > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18-11 > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion; > R^ituuNaam > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's, Lord > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising � > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya; > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all, > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with; > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa bhaagam= > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of; > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta oSTam= > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as; putram= > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > 3. The lagna is Cancer > 4. Moon is in lagna > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is it > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be > with Moon on a Navami day. > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > uccha(exalted) > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are in > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While the > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets places > can be fixed only by discussion > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a > navami > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees. > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing from > all of you. > > with best regards, > > kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 oṠgurave namaḥ Dear Kishore B. Lakṣmī Ramesh is associated with TTD…and you should approach her instead of expecing her to call your phone. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath -------------------- * 15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi 110060, India 4  http://srath.com, http://sagittariuspublications.com & (En) http://sohamsa.com, (EU) http://siva-edu-com, (Non-Profit) http://.org ( +91.11.42430122 (India), (650) 209-4770 (USA), SkypeID: sriguruji ------- sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of kishore patnaik Friday, November 09, 2007 9:34 AM vedic astrology ; ; Astro_Remedies ; ; jyotish_ganga ; ; lalkitab ; naastrology ; ; ; sohamsa ; Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Dear all, Kindly contact on my private mail if any one is working in TTD, Thirumala. regards, Kishore patnaik 9849270729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Dear Sanjayji, Thanks for the information. best regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 On 11/13/07, Sanjay Rath <sanjayrath wrote: oṠgurave namaḥ Dear Kishore B. Lakṣmī Ramesh is associated with TTD…and you should approach her instead of expecing her to call your phone. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath -------------------- * 15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi 110060, India 4 http://srath.com, http://sagittariuspublications.com & (En) http://sohamsa.com, (EU) http://siva-edu-com, (Non-Profit) http://.org ( +91.11.42430122 (India), (650) 209-4770 (USA), SkypeID: sriguruji ------- sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of kishore patnaik Friday, November 09, 2007 9:34 AMvedic astrology ; ; Astro_Remedies ; ; jyotish_ganga ; ; lalkitab ; naastrology ; ; ; sohamsa ; Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad Subject: Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Dear all, Kindly contact on my private mail if any one is working in TTD, Thirumala. regards, Kishore patnaik 9849270729 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Will do that - Krishnamurthy Seetharama Monday, November 12, 2007 5:33 AM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Hi Marg, Please send them to my personal ID: krishna_1998 Thanks, Krishna Marg <margie9 wrote: Hi I can send these to personal e mail for anyone who wants them, as a safe attachment, it will have Krsnas chart too, there is only the charts no exact dates. - kishore patnaik Thursday, November 08, 2007 6:23 AM Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama Dear Marg, Can you please send me the relevant papers presented? regards, Kishore patnaik 98492 70729 On 11/5/07, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > In September the British Association of Vedic Astrologers discussed Rama's > chart and Krsn'a chart during an international conference call. > Rama's chart was suggested to be Jup/Mon Cancer lagna, Sun Merucry tenth > house, Venus eleventh, Saturn fourth, Mars tenth, Rahu sixth house. > best wishes > M > > - > kishore patnaik > vedic astrology <vedic astrology%40> ; > <%40.\ com>; > Astro_Remedies <Astro_Remedies%40> ; > <%40> ; > lalkitab <lalkitab%40> ; > naastrology <naastrology%40> ; > <%40> ; > <%40> ; > sohamsa <sohamsa%40> ; > Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad <Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad%40.\ com> > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > Dear all, > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few days. I am > giving below the slokas connected with > the birth : > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18-11 > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on completion; > R^ituuNaam > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; dvaadashe > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra month > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the day > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa uccha > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; karkaTe > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when Speech's, Lord > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when raising � > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= Queen Kausalya; > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= by all, > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, along with; > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa bhaagam= > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, delight of; > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; rakta oSTam= > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama as; putram= > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > 3. The lagna is Cancer > 4. Moon is in lagna > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be vakpati. Is it > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury could not be > with Moon on a Navami day. > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > uccha(exalted) > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets which are in > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. While the > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three planets places > can be fixed only by discussion > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer on a > navami > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 degrees. > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the place of > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after hearing from > all of you. > > with best regards, > > kishore patnaik > 98492 70729 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2007 Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Dear Bhaskari, thank you for the kind words and the information. The delay in reply was since i have not seen your mail. The chart of Rama is very complicated for two reasons- First, there is more than the literal meaning of the sloka and second, our knowledge of timing of Lord Rama (unlike that of Sri Krishna) is very poor and the astro principles of Valmiki's time. Some of the astrologers may not be interested in such things becoz it may not help the predictive techniques. (but who knows? once the chart is revealed, we may see new angles since we know rama's story) But I look into it with more interest coz I am not only interested in astrology but also Vedic history. (history as propounded by Vedas and other scriptures) best regards, On 11/11/07, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Kishoreji, > > I do not mean to enter this thread actively, but > just for once. Your mails makes sense. > I appreciate your return mails to explain > what and why You have written with Logic. > I had actually written same points in another mail > in affirmation to Your mail , but did not post > for fear of interferance. Yes Mercury is the main > significator for speech and Jupiter the > natural significator or karaka for wealth > denoted by the 2nd house. I would not > relate it to speech rather eating habits (and > topics of interest while speaking) etc. > Venus stands for face if we take the natural > karakas or karakatwa factor. > > In this individual Horoscope though the karakatwa > goes to Sun as Lord of 2nd House. But the shloka > is not talking of the individual Lordships > I suppose, but of natural Significators. As Sun > cannot come in the Lagna of course. > > regards, > Bhaskar. > > <%40>, > " kishore patnaik " > <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Good that someone is talking academics at last. where were you all > these > > years? > > > > Offhand, I am afraid I may not be totally right in some of my > replies and in > > any case, I am not comprehensive. > > > > > > 1. The translation you give seems to imply that it is not intended > to convey > > that Vak's ruleC is positively conjunct the Moon. Could it not also > imply > > that the lord of Vak is rising within the moon's vicinity as lagna > rises in > > purnavasu, and this would then allow Venus in the vicinity as lord > of Vak. I > > also understand that Vak is voice, not speech, so still feel that > Venus is a > > contender, and don't understand the reasoning behind Jupiter being > chosen to > > be significator of Vak, sorry if this upsets anyone, but I am > willing to > > look at any evidence for your 'tradition' of Vak's lord from > classics. > > > > My reply: Generally, Vakpati is Mercury. Vak stands for actually > speech- > > the vagdevi being Mother Saraswati. Vakya is something said, a > sentence. > > Avakya is speechless Vakti is to tell. A Vakta is one who speaks- > orator. > > Ava vaktaram = please protect the speaker. > > > > However, vaak can also stand for language, voice, sound etc. > > > > The next contender, may be a poor one, is Jupiter being the > signficator for > > knowledge. Venus, so far as i know, is not a contender for this > > significance. > > > > As I have said, Jupiter had to be chosen only cause it is virtually > > impossible for Mercury to be in Cancer along with moon on a navami > day. > > > > 2.Is it being taken as inarguable that the zodiac had been fully > defined and > > was being used in vedic times? I thought that the vedas had no > reference to > > the formal divisions of the nakshatras as used in jyotish, and that > the Moon > > merely pointing to Aditi alone, rather than being in any ''pada'' > was the > > way the vedas would refer to constellational influences? This is > why I asked > > about the merits of the source you quoted. Does the reading really > imply > > moon is in purnavasu or is it just telling us that this is the > constellation > > which is rising at the time Rama is born? It was the constellation > rising > > which was considered important in vedic times surely, and divisions > of > > nakshatras were a later development. > > > > My reply: Yes, you are right. During Vedic jyotisham days, we do > not know > > how they have divided the zodiac space. Here, we take the moon to > be in the > > 4th pada, thanks to the word Kataka used. If you want to place sun > in Aries, > > you are only making it all the more impossible to advance moon into > > punarvasu's earlier padas. > > Many argue that there was no concept of rasi (zodiac signs) during > vedic and > > ramayan times. But that may not true. Just as we all know the > arudha system > > but hardly use it, Rsis of yore might have not relied on Rasi > system much. > > In fact, Sachi, a vedic rsi gives a formula to find out the name of > the year > > based on meena rasi. It is a different matter if you dismiss it as > > interpolation. > > > > 3.Abhijit being employed in the manner you suggest is also a modern > practise > > surely.I'm quoting an expert astronomer here who is saying there > were > > originally 28 nakshatras in vedic times, not 27: > > > > My reply: While there was the use of Abhijit, the more popular > system of > > stars during Vedic times have employed only 27 stars. For eg., the > Jaudhi > > system that enumerates stars and their adhi devatas mention only 27 > stars. > > Abhijit was used for a specific purpose and otherwise, the count of > stars is > > only 27. > > > > Btw, the abhijeet lagna has got nothing to do with abhijeet star. > it is the > > specific time of every day which is supposed to be auspicious for > any work > > to be done, irrespective of lagna ascending at that time and the > gochara, > > the planetary positions. > > > > Hope I am clear, > > > > regards, > > > > kishore patnaik > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > kishore patnaik > > > <%40><%40> > > > Sunday, November 11, 2007 12:50 PM > > > Re: Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Good to read your mail. > > > > > > Bad things first: > > > > > > 1. Mercury or Venus can not conjuct with moon on a navami day. > This is so > > > since the sun maintains a distance of 96 degrees or more ,whereas > Mercury > > > can not be more than 28 degrees away from sun and venus, 72 > degrees- thus > > > venus has some chance if the moon is in the last degrees of a > sign but > > > here > > > moon is in the very beginning of the cancer. Hence, it has got to > be > > > jupiter. Btw, traditionally vakpati means mercury and not venus. > > > > > > 2. Abhijit lagna is that muhurtha during which the noon falls.It > starts at > > > the end of 7.5 muhurtha after the sun rise and goes on till 8.5 > muhurtha. > > > As > > > every other muhurtha, it lasts for 48 minutes. So, there is every > > > possibility that Rama was born in abhijeet muhurtha with sun in > pisces and > > > lagna falling in cancer > > > > > > Now, the good things: > > > > > > 1. Great to see that you are now trying to interpret the > cosmological > > > meaning of the slokas Please keep it up I will catch up if I find > a spark > > > 2. I do not know about relation between trisanku and rama's > birth, though > > > trisanku was indeed rama's ancestor and was tried to be sent to > Heavens > > > bodily by Viswamitra who again played a big role during Rama's > times. > > > Please fill me up. > > > > > > Thnks for the mail once again,. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > On 11/11/07, Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore > > > > Please would you identify the source of your information? > > > > I have just re read the mail you sent with the interpretation > in, and > > > > would like query that the ruler of Vak is Jupiter or Mercury? > > > > Vak is voice, voice is ruled by Taurus, Venus rules Taurus, so > Venus as > > > > ruler of vak must be in first house with the Moon. > > > > Voice is different to speech , a third house affair, which is > ruled by > > > > Mercury. One can have vak or voice, but no speech. Venus Lord > of Vak > > > would > > > > therefore appear to be in Cancer in the ascendant surely? > > > > Also the reference to abhijijit is a little obscure. Isn't > abhijit > > > > employed as an intercalary adjustment to align the sun with the > moon's > > > > motion? If abhijit is being referred to is it directing > attention to an > > > > adjustment to nomral motion being made,which might affect the > expected > > > usual > > > > distance between sun and moon on navami? > > > > Out of interest sake I just re read the opening of Ramayana, a > brilliant > > > > epic, and realised that the epoch at which Rama is born is > during the > > > > creation of constellations in the southern path by Trisanku, > king of the > > > > solar dynasty.In fact the birth of Ram and his brothers is an > allegory > > > of > > > > the creation of Aries, Taurus and the twins Gemini don't you > think? > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > > Sunday, November 04, 2007 9:24 AM > > > > Horoscope of Lord Rama > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I am looking at the horoscope of Sri Rama for the past few > days. I am > > > > giving below the slokas connected with > > > > the birth : > > > > > > > > tato yaj~ne samaapte tu R^itUnaam SaT samatyayuH | > > > > tataH ca dvaadashe maase chaitre naavamike tithau || 1-18-8 > > > > nakxatre aditi daivatye sva ucCha sa.nstheShu pa.nchasu | > > > > graheShu kar.hkaTe lagne vaakpataa i.ndunaa saha || 1-18-9 > > > > prodyamaane jagannaatham sarva loka namaskR^itam | > > > > kausalyaa ajanayat raamam sarva lakSaNa sa.myutam || 1-18-10 > > > > viSNoH ardham mahaabhaagam putram aixvaaku na.ndanam | > > > > lohitaaksham mahaabaahum rak{}ta oSTam du.ndubhi svanam || 1-18- > 11 > > > > > > > > 8, 9, 10, 11. tataH yaj~ne samaapte= then, ritual, on > completion; > > > > R^ituuNaam > > > > SaT sam atyayuH= seasons, six, well, passed by; tataH= then; > dvaadashe > > > > maase= in twelfth, month; chaitre naavamike tithau= chaitra > month > > > > [April-May], ninth, day; nakshatre aditi daivatye= star of the > day > > > > [punarvasu,] [whose presiding is] Aditi; panchasu graheSu swa > uccha > > > > samstheshu= of five, planets, in their own, highest, positing; > karkaTe > > > > lagne= in Cancer [of Zodiac]; vaak patiH indunaa saha= when > Speech's, > > > Lord > > > > [Jupiter,] is [with] Moon, along with; pra udyamane= when > raising � > > > > ascending, advancing daytime � abhijit lagna; kausalyaa= > Queen Kausalya; > > > > jagat naatham= worlds', lord [Vishnu]; sarva loka namaskR^itam= > by all, > > > > worlds, adored; divya lakshana samyutam= divine, attributes, > along with; > > > > viSNoH= Vishnu's; artham= epitome of [not half of Vishnu]; mahaa > > > bhaagam= > > > > greatly blessed one; ikshwaaku nandanam= Ikshvaaku dynasty, > delight of; > > > > lohita aksham= lotus-red, eyes; mahaa baahum= lengthy, armed; > rakta > > > oSTam= > > > > roseate, lips; dundubhi svanam= drumbeat, voiced; raamam= Rama > as; > > > putram= > > > > the son; ajanayat= gave birth. > > > > > > > > if you carefully look at this, the following are clear: > > > > > > > > 1. The birth occured in chaitra masa on the tithi of Navami > > > > 2. The birth occured in Punarvasu nakshatra > > > > 3. The lagna is Cancer > > > > 4. Moon is in lagna > > > > > > > > The following two points are to be discussed. > > > > > > > > 1. here, the planet with which moon is there is said to be > vakpati. Is > > > it > > > > Mercury or Jupiter? Obviously, he is Jupiter since Mercury > could not be > > > > with Moon on a Navami day. > > > > > > > > 2. The five planets mentioned here are either in swa (own) or > > > > uccha(exalted) > > > > positions. It should not be taken that there are five planets > which are > > > in > > > > exaltation, which seems to be popular refrain > > > > > > > > 3. These five planets are Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Venus and > Saturn. While > > > the > > > > sloka fixes the places of Moon and Jupiter, the other three > planets > > > places > > > > can be fixed only by discussion > > > > > > > > 4. Clearly, Sun can not be in exaltation when Moon is in cancer > on a > > > > navami > > > > day. The distance between moon and sun should be more than 108 > degrees. > > > > hence, the place of sun also can be fixed to pisces. Thus, the > place of > > > > mercury is to be bound by three rasis- aqua, pisces or aries. > > > > > > > > Hence, I would post my reasoning of planetary positions after > hearing > > > from > > > > all of you. > > > > > > > > with best regards, > > > > > > > > kishore patnaik > > > > 98492 70729 > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2007 Report Share Posted November 22, 2007 The Book " Dating the Era of Lord Ram : Discover the Actual Dates of the Lifetime of Lord Ram/Pushkar Bhatnagar. New Delhi, Rupa and Co., " is the most authentic book written on this subject. kulbir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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