Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac

May 16, 2009

How this discussion connected to a astrology Group can any of the

participators explain ?

Can they talk in tangibles, as to how will predictive astrology undergo

a change with what they wish to bring a change about and how ?

First prove that the astrologers of today are wrong when they are

predicting, and then show examples how will your change bring about a

right prediction.

No extra talk, no extra theories.

Just put in illustrations on how is the astrological setup wrong today

in providing predictions with examples , and how will you bring a change

with your values which are input or feeded, with examples.

No theories about astronomy which may be taken to a Astronomy or a

History Group where there are smarter people of your types to argue with

you. .

Bhaskar.

, " harimalla "

<harimalla wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Boaz,

> I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar

system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present

tropical view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To

this we also have to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even

in astrology, we not only take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra

rashi and combine both.Thus unless there is coordination of the lagan

rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not complete.For this, we should

have coordination of the solar and the lunar seasons.This combination

requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to 2000 years.Then

after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by shifting

the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the

coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr

seasons occur.

> Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely

necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination

between the tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is

either tropical or sidereal only. This is their short sightedness.

> In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept

of the western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely

nirayan system has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our

comprehensive or cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be

called as the lunar tropical system if you like, which incudes the

sidereal system for aboout 1000 to 2000 years.

> I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both

sidereal and tropical at the same time.

> At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees

backwards and thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated

way, so that the true spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist

of the calendar reform movement presently being carried out.

> thanking you,I remain,

> Sincerly yours,

> Hari Malla

>

> , " zaobnali " zaob16@

wrote:

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A

and

> > that A does not equal B.

> >

> > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their

> > attributes. Thank you for your kind words.

> >

> > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also

met

> > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with

> > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born

brahmin.

> >

> > Thank you for those of who filled the test.

> >

> > Boaz

> >

> > ,

sunil_bhattacharjya@

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in

the

> > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears

> > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word

Rashi.

> > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi?

You

> > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra

> > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The

> > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal

Zodiac as

> > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for

the

> > moving Tropical Zodiac.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> > >

> > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> > >

> > > zaobnali zaob16@

> > > Re: Test of tropical versus

> > sidereal zodiac

> > >

> > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis

> > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed

and

> > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12

rasis.

> > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is

Sun

> > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn

coincide

> > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the

> > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the

> > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that

the

> > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not

ignore

> > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such

studies

> > are important.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Boaz

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

> > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear All,

> > > >

> > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are

> > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a

> > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the

> > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each

> > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal

Zodiac

> > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in

my

> > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya

> > > >

> > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > zaobnali zaob16@

> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus

> > sidereal zodiac

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM

> > > >

> > > > Dear All,

> > > >

> > > > Glad to join this forum.

> > > >

> > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query

to

> > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works

better.

> > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth

are

> > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is

showing

> > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken

the

> > test and results are consistently aligning with the same

calculations on

> > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few

hundred

> > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can

reveal

> > the results to you all.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Boaz

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 16, 2009

The propogators who wish to bring about a change in ayanamsha , I

request them to please do so , and give us examples and future

predictions in this Group, so that we can get ready proof of the

advantage of the change in ayanamsha which they wish to bring about is

right.

(None of them will be able to do so. They are all experts in writing

lengthy articles full of nonsense, but practical utility is " None " . )

P,lease give us 5 future predictions on a international native,

Political, or whatever you wish to, with your change of ayanamsha.

If You cant do this, then shut uip, and let everybody use whatever

ayanamsha they wish to.

As regards to change in calendar dates, this nonsense must be taken to

the Policy and Calendar makers of India. What is the use of bickering

continously in a astrological forum? Do we fix the festival dates ? Or

Do You ? If you do, then what are your credentials ? Ypou have nobody

else to listen to you, so you come with your garbage to astrologers who

are in the job of predicting with Horoscopes and not in Calendar or

Panchanga making ? Why dont you have enough ammunitions to take your

garbage to the right corridors ? Why do you wish to dump it on

astrologers who use wrong ayanamsha and have nothing to do with

Panchanga making here ?

Speak. Clarify. But dont write 20 page mails.

Bhaskar.

May 16, 2009

Dear Boaz ji,If I may intervene...a late comer to this discussion, I find this quite interesting. Hence let me submit birth data, for which I invite you or anyone else to analyze using Sayana/Nirayana chart. Natal Chart September 17, 1864Time: 6:52:00Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)Place: 79 E 50' 00", 6 N 55' 00" Colombo, Sri LankaBy the way,//The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing thesidereal zodiac does not validate it//......and neither does it invalidate it ...right?Anyone can treat this as a blind chart and analyze as per their preferences in ayanamsa calculations.blessings,Renu , "zaobnali" <zaob16 wrote:>> Dear Sunil,> > Ernst's work makes sense to me. It is my understanding that the ancient> texts have not been preserved without corruption and people like Ernst> are trying to carry tests in order to validate one interpretation or> another. The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the> sidereal zodiac does not validate it. Similarly mid age most Europeans> believed the world is flat following Church tradition and dogma. I don't> know enough about the origin of Yamakoti. Please ask Ernst for his> opinion. Thanks.> > Best,> Boaz> > > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> >> > dear zaobnali ji> >> > It is happy to know that u r a scientist ,astrology is not a science> in> > physical sense of science which demands 2+2 is 4 ,then u may hav to go> > disappointed> >> > Astrology is a sastra which has its own rules to arrive at its results> > ,it has nothing in common with modern science .even science agrees or> > not ,or if it agree tomorrow it is not our problem .> >> > if some one dont understand a ancient treatise it doesnot allow him to> > deviate frm what was traditionaly being practised ( he can do what> ever> > way he feels like but no right to teach or spread a misconception as> > reserch or some thing ) ,even if we cannot answer u also doesnot> means> > it does giv u authority to say that astrology which is practised by> > major section of india is wrong .> >> > i would like to point out 4 cities mentioned in surya sidhantha in the> > article by earnest ji ( he thinks it is some real places )> >> > yamakoti ,romaka ,sidhapuri and Lanka ( to locate 4 quadrants )> >> > did u try to locate it ?? lanka is a name still avilable ?? what was> > result ?? why dont u take it as a pointer ??> > Also do u know one thing the gypsies who still claims of indian origin> > in european countries they calls themself as ROMA tribe ,why ?? it> says> > they carried lot of information to western countries ??Why dont u> equate> > them with roma a ancient empire ??Romaka real meaning in sanskrit is> > hairy ( roma means hair ,so may b some grp of ppl who has long hairs> as> > a fashion --i just suggesting a diffrnt meaning ,so now what u think> > this ancient romaka sidhantha is came frm rome or ppl of romaka> > country/group /tribe or rishi kula in india itself or a rishi who was> > being called as Romaka ??> >> > all this names are fictious Names used for calculating a mathematical> > model than anything to do with real cities/country .> > so u shud understand that the basic problem is understanding the> reality> > ,there may b 1000 commentaries even the best among them also may b> > faulty ,where as truth will b one and one only> >> > The problem is our misundestanding to identify truth .> >> > thanks for ur time> >> > rgrds sunil nair> >> >>

May 16, 2009

Dear Hari Malla,

I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined

consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana.

The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar

with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in

Libra according to your system.

Thanks

Boaz

, " harimalla " <harimalla

wrote:

>

> Dear Mr. Boaz,

> I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar

system,it is not enough to take the solar viewpoint only.The present tropical

view point you are mentioning is purely solar season only.To this we also have

to combine the lunar seasonal viewpoint too.Thus even in astrology, we not only

take the lagan rashi, but also the chandra rashi and combine both.Thus unless

there is coordination of the lagan rashi and lunar rashi, astrology is not

complete.For this, we should have coordination of the solar and the lunar

seasons.This combination requires that the system remain nirayan for 1000 to

2000 years.Then after that priod it is necessary to apply calender reform by

shifting the nirayan sankranti one fortnight or a whole month, so that the

coordination of the tropical, the sidereal systems including the luanr seasons

occur.

> Thus in our soli-lunar system the coordinated approach is abslutely

necessary.But many people, not able to understand this coordination between the

tropical, sidereal and lunar natures, think our sytem is either tropical or

sidereal only. This is their short sightedness.

> In fact so few people understand it that way, that I feel, the concept of the

western tropical system and in opposition to it the indefinitely nirayan system

has cropped up.Both are in the dark concerning our comprehensive or

cooridinated system.This comprehensive system may be called as the lunar

tropical system if you like, which incudes the sidereal system for aboout 1000

to 2000 years.

> I hope I have given some idea of the vedic system which is both sidereal and

tropical at the same time.

> At the present time, we have to shift the rashis by 30 degreees backwards and

thus both the solar and the lunar months in a coordinated way, so that the true

spirit of the Vedas is fulfilled.This is the gist of the calendar reform

movement presently being carried out.

> thanking you,I remain,

> Sincerly yours,

> Hari Malla

>

> , " zaobnali " <zaob16@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and

> > that A does not equal B.

> >

> > I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their

> > attributes. Thank you for your kind words.

> >

> > Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met

> > with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with

> > objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin.

> >

> > Thank you for those of who filled the test.

> >

> > Boaz

> >

> > , sunil_bhattacharjya@

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the

> > Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears

> > that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi.

> > Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You

> > will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra

> > Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The

> > Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as

> > they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the

> > moving Tropical Zodiac.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> > >

> > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> > >

> > > zaobnali zaob16@

> > > Re: Test of tropical versus

> > sidereal zodiac

> > >

> > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > >

> > > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis

> > mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and

> > mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis.

> > The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun

> > based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide

> > with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the

> > ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the

> > tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the

> > sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore

> > the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies

> > are important.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Boaz

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

> > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear All,

> > > >

> > > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are

> > ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a

> > reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the

> > interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each

> > other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac

> > takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my

> > opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya

> > > >

> > > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > zaobnali zaob16@

> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus

> > sidereal zodiac

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM

> > > >

> > > > Dear All,

> > > >

> > > > Glad to join this forum.

> > > >

> > > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to

> > determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better.

> > Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are

> > encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing

> > some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the

> > test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on

> > all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred

> > more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal

> > the results to you all.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Boaz

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 16, 2009

Dear Renu,

I don't do charts. In addition I don't fully believe in astrology yet

other than that the system appears profound. I have been reading and

following forums for the past 4 years and have not yet seen a single

prediction which impressed me. I think there is a lot of research to be

done. I was about to give up on astrology before happening to find

Ernst's material. He may have not pinned down everything either but at

least he is very scholarly, open and sincere. He makes sense to me and I

am very interested in his findings. I am open to the possibility that

some people are highly intuitive and can make predictions using coffee

marks or whatever ayanamsha but I am seeking philosocphical/mathematical

basis to astrology. I don't live off of it - it is a special interest of

mine as a means to understand the laws of world creation and

maintainance.

Boaz

, " renunw " <renunw

wrote:

>

> Dear Boaz ji,

>

> If I may intervene...a late comer to this discussion, I find this

quite

> interesting. Hence let me submit birth data, for which I invite you or

> anyone else to analyze using Sayana/Nirayana chart.

>

> Natal Chart

>

> September 17, 1864

> Time: 6:52:00

> Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)

> Place: 79 E 50' 00 " , 6 N 55' 00 "

> Colombo, Sri Lanka

>

> By the way,

>

> //The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the

> sidereal zodiac does not validate it//......and neither does it

> invalidate it ...right?

>

> Anyone can treat this as a blind chart and analyze as per their

> preferences in ayanamsa calculations.

>

> blessings,

>

> Renu

>

> , " zaobnali " zaob16@

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sunil,

> >

> > Ernst's work makes sense to me. It is my understanding that the

> ancient

> > texts have not been preserved without corruption and people like

Ernst

> > are trying to carry tests in order to validate one interpretation or

> > another. The fact that majority of Indian people are practicing the

> > sidereal zodiac does not validate it. Similarly mid age most

Europeans

> > believed the world is flat following Church tradition and dogma. I

> don't

> > know enough about the origin of Yamakoti. Please ask Ernst for his

> > opinion. Thanks.

> >

> > Best,

> > Boaz

> >

> > , " sunil nair "

> > astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:

> > >

> > > dear zaobnali ji

> > >

> > > It is happy to know that u r a scientist ,astrology is not a

science

> > in

> > > physical sense of science which demands 2+2 is 4 ,then u may hav

to

> go

> > > disappointed

> > >

> > > Astrology is a sastra which has its own rules to arrive at its

> results

> > > ,it has nothing in common with modern science .even science agrees

> or

> > > not ,or if it agree tomorrow it is not our problem .

> > >

> > > if some one dont understand a ancient treatise it doesnot allow

him

> to

> > > deviate frm what was traditionaly being practised ( he can do what

> > ever

> > > way he feels like but no right to teach or spread a misconception

> as

> > > reserch or some thing ) ,even if we cannot answer u also doesnot

> > means

> > > it does giv u authority to say that astrology which is practised

by

> > > major section of india is wrong .

> > >

> > > i would like to point out 4 cities mentioned in surya sidhantha in

> the

> > > article by earnest ji ( he thinks it is some real places )

> > >

> > > yamakoti ,romaka ,sidhapuri and Lanka ( to locate 4 quadrants )

> > >

> > > did u try to locate it ?? lanka is a name still avilable ?? what

> was

> > > result ?? why dont u take it as a pointer ??

> > > Also do u know one thing the gypsies who still claims of indian

> origin

> > > in european countries they calls themself as ROMA tribe ,why ??

it

> > says

> > > they carried lot of information to western countries ??Why dont u

> > equate

> > > them with roma a ancient empire ??Romaka real meaning in sanskrit

is

> > > hairy ( roma means hair ,so may b some grp of ppl who has long

hairs

> > as

> > > a fashion --i just suggesting a diffrnt meaning ,so now what u

think

> > > this ancient romaka sidhantha is came frm rome or ppl of romaka

> > > country/group /tribe or rishi kula in india itself or a rishi who

> was

> > > being called as Romaka ??

> > >

> > > all this names are fictious Names used for calculating a

> mathematical

> > > model than anything to do with real cities/country .

> > > so u shud understand that the basic problem is understanding the

> > reality

> > > ,there may b 1000 commentaries even the best among them also may b

> > > faulty ,where as truth will b one and one only

> > >

> > > The problem is our misundestanding to identify truth .

> > >

> > > thanks for ur time

> > >

> > > rgrds sunil nair

> > >

> >

>

May 17, 2009

Hello,

You said:

I do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. I wasreferring to their attributes.

Unquote

I like your frank admission that you do not know the meaning of the word Rashi.

Unless you know the real meaning you cannot know the real attributes of Rashi.

First thing first. In my opinion if you want to talk about Rashi you should get

to know the meaning of the word Rashi.

Sincerely,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Sat, 5/16/09, zaobnali <zaob16 wrote:

zaobnali <zaob16

Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac

Saturday, May 16, 2009, 5:36 AM

Hello,

I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and

that A does not equal B.

I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their

attributes. Thank you for your kind words.

Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met

with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with

objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin.

Thank you for those of who filled the test.

Boaz

ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya

wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the

Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears

that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi.

Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You

will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra

Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The

Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as

they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the

moving Tropical Zodiac.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16 wrote:

>

> zaobnali zaob16

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus

sidereal zodiac

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM

>

> Hello,

>

> I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis

mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and

mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis.

The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun

based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide

with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the

ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the

tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the

sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore

the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies

are important.

>

> Thanks

> Boaz

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> >

> > Dear All,

> >

> > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are

ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a

reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the

interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each

other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac

takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my

opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya

> >

> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> >

> > zaobnali zaob16@

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus

sidereal zodiac

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM

> >

> > Dear All,

> >

> > Glad to join this forum.

> >

> > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to

determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better.

Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are

encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing

some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the

test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on

all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred

more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal

the results to you all.

> >

> > http://www.isjyotis h.com/

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Boaz

> >

>

May 17, 2009

Please read my message carefully. You may notice a small but nevertheless

important extra word that you inserted into my sentence........ Whats going on

this forum?

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Hello,

>

> You said:

>

> I do not know the meaning of the word Rashi. I wasreferring to their

attributes.

>

> Unquote

>

> I like your frank admission that you do not know the meaning of the word

Rashi. Unless you know the real meaning you cannot know the real attributes of

Rashi. First thing first. In my opinion if you want to talk about Rashi you

should get to know the meaning of the word Rashi.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Sat, 5/16/09, zaobnali <zaob16 wrote:

>

> zaobnali <zaob16

> Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal

zodiac

>

> Saturday, May 16, 2009, 5:36 AM

>

Hello,

>

> I do not believe in a subjective reality. I believe that A equals A and

> that A does not equal B.

>

> I do know the meaning of the word Rashi . I was referring to their

> attributes. Thank you for your kind words.

>

> Sri Yukteswar advocated science and the use of logic. He has also met

> with tremendous opposition due to his attempt to align holidays with

> objective realities and due to the face that he was not born brahmin.

>

> Thank you for those of who filled the test.

>

> Boaz

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, sunil_bhattacharjya

> wrote:

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > So it appears that you are not aware that Rashi is mentioned in the

> Vedanga Jyotisha, which is an ancient text. Secondly it also appears

> that you are not aware of the genesis and etymology of the word Rashi.

> Why don't you see a Sanskrit dictionary before talking about Rashi? You

> will find there that Rashi means a group. In Indian Jyotish shastra

> Rashis are groups of fixed Nakshatras and they cannot move. The

> Tropical Zodiac later on took the word Rashi from the Sidereal Zodiac as

> they could not coin an apprprpiate word for for the 12 divisions for the

> moving Tropical Zodiac.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> >

> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> >

> > zaobnali zaob16@

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Test of tropical versus

> sidereal zodiac

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Friday, May 15, 2009, 9:49 PM

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I think it is important to understand conceptually what the rasis

> mean. The rasis, for example, have certain qualities, mobile, fixed and

> mutable, as well as the four elements. These qualities 3x4 = 12 rasis.

> The Sun sets these qualities in motion and the tropical zodiac is Sun

> based. The moveable signs Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn coincide

> with the solstices and equinoxes. In addition it turns out that the

> ancient scripts actually seem to suggest that the rishis used the

> tropical zodiac (see Ernst's article on Ayanamsha). It may be that the

> sidereal zodiac will eventually be proven correct but we can not ignore

> the tropical zodiac and the reasoning behind, which is why such studies

> are important.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Boaz

> >

> > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

> Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear All,

> > >

> > > The positions of all the nine grahas in the Tropical Zodiac are

> ayanamsha-corrected in the Sidereal Zodiac. So this means the a

> reoriented Tropical Ziodiac fits in the Sidereal Zodiac and the

> interaction between the grahas based on the angles relative to each

> other are the same in both the Zodiacs. On top of it the Sidereal Zodiac

> takes into account the additional effects of the Nakshatras. So in my

> opinion the Sidereal predictions are bound to be more precise.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Sunl K. Bhattacharjya

> > >

> > > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, zaobnali zaob16@ wrote:

> > >

> > > zaobnali zaob16@

> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus

> sidereal zodiac

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > Friday, May 15, 2009, 4:27 AM

> > >

> > > Dear All,

> > >

> > > Glad to join this forum.

> > >

> > > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to

> determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better.

> Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are

> encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing

> some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the

> test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on

> all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred

> more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal

> the results to you all.

> > >

> > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Boaz

> > >

> >

>

May 17, 2009

Dear Harimallaji,

Calendar-making is not a layman's job. Layman follows the calendar made by the experts. So you cannot sacrifice rigorous treatment just to simplify the process for making of calendar.

In my last mail I asked you a simple question but you have not replied to that. Please do not evade this important question. Nirayana Makar Rashi and that Sayana Makar Rashi cannot always start at the same time. Therefore they need not necessarily always be in the same fullmoon zone. In fact the Nirayana Makar rashi is the real Makar Rashi. The Sayana Makar Rashi shifts due to precession and once you attempt to reply to that question you will realise that you are making improper assumptions. So please reply to that question first. I repeat below your statement and my question to that :

> Quote> > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?I

I am waiting for your reply with Vedic reference as to where it is said that the two Sankrantis are to be in the same fullmoon zone.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sat, 5/16/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

harimalla <harimalla Re: Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 6:01 AM

Dear Bhattacharjyaji,Namaskar! Study of vedic calender practice and the vedic calendar reform paractice are both important for ascertaining this fact, that both the sayan and nirayan sankrantis should be within the same fullmoon zone.Once a person knows this for sure, calendar reform becomes a easy job.Lack of this study has troubled the modern hindus between the unending dispute between sayan and nirayan systems.The vedic system is simultaneously sayan(tropical) and nirayan(sidereal) .Many people wonder how it can be both sayan and nirayan at the same time.That is to be understood by concentration and careful analysis of our vedic soli-lunar calendar; that is the compreheensive vedic method of calendar practice and reform both.We should be conversant with the simultaneity of three factors- the sayan sankranti,the nirayan sankranti and the lunar uttrayan or vshuvat dates.The coordination of the three was always done in the past.Only in

the modern times we are faltering on how to accomplish it.This is due to modern western influence of solar sayan (tropical) dates, which has given rise to the two camps of thought, sidereal and tropical.By analysing vedanga jyotish system of how the five year yuga,the semi sidereal lunar month of magha, the tropical lunar Tapa sukla pratipada and uttrayan can start simutaneously for nearly 1700 years from 1400 BC to 285 AD, when the sun and the moon were in dhanistha, we can understand our system well.This is how we analyse.The nirayan sankranti was- sun in dhanistha all that period.The tropicallunar Tapa sukla pratipada fluctuated from the first of makar rashi to the end of rashi, as you well know. Magha sukla pratipada does that even today, fluctuating during the nearly three year period cycle( form adhimas to adhimas)over the whole month of magha from the first to the last of the month.This was the lunar uttrayan date.Again over that

whole period, the sayan sankranti representing tropical uttrayan travelled over 7 padas of makar rashi, from the beginning of dhanistha nakshyatra to the beginning of makar rashi.In short, the uttrayan lunar pratipada embraced both the sayan uttarayan and nirayan uttarayan for that period and thus coordinating both.Thus the formula is- the lunar uttarayan date should coordinate both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankrantis.When Barah mihir and others did calendar reform, they maintained the old vedanga sytem of haveing both the sayan sankranti and the nirayan sankranti by the lunar uttayan which was shifted to poush fullmoon.At present the uttarayan lunar date being still Poush purnima, it should have coordinated both the sayan uttarayan sankranti and the nirayan uttrayan sankranti (makar sankti) by touching both within the three year period of the fluctuation of the adhimaas,although, it did served this purpose for about 1100 years after

285AD till the early 15th. century.But after that it has stopped coordinating the two sankrantis, when the ayanamsa increased more than 15 degrees.Thus to bring about the same situation of coordination, we have to shift the nirayan sankranti by 30 degrees, so we maintain our present nirayan rashi system relevant in our soli-lunar system now also.This method keeps alive the rules of our nirayan astrology and the present dharma shastras intact, the way it is supposed to be.We don't have to change a single word in our shastras.We only change the ayansamsa from 24 degrees ot -6 degrees and bring our calender back to its solar and lunar seasons and dates.Many people think we do not have to bother about the seasons.If we are not to bother about the seasons, then why do we have the adhimas in the first place.Is it not to actualise the lunar seasons that we have the adhimas? Is it not because the Moslems do not have adhimas that they have no lunar

seasons.Why do we call our Dashehara festivals 'Sharad navaratra' if it should not fall in sharad ritu. Thus if our calendar is to be vedic, how can it forget our dharma shastra.Is veda not our dharma only? Of ocurse astrology should also continue smoothly.But the best method seems now to let astrology have its freedom whether to use the old rashis or the reformedd new epochal rashis, which in my view would be more acurate.But till faith develops in the new epochal rashis, those who want may continue with the old rashis itsslef.But they sould not be a hindrance to the reformation of our vedic calender. The festivals are their dharma as well .Regards,Hari Mallaancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> > Quote>

> The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?> > -SIKB> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote:> > > Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..>> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009, 5:50 AM> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz,> This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all.> But one thing is certain which we must all

know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one wants ot come to lasting solution.> regards,> Hari Malla> > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM> [ancient_indian_

astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> > > > Dear All, > > Glad to join this forum.> > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/> > Thanks,> Boaz>ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> > Quote> > The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.> > Unquote> > Vedic reference please?> > -SIKB> > --- On Fri, 5/15/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote:> > > Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..>> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15,

2009, 5:50 AM> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Boaz,> This indeed is a good news.The result will surely be exciting.After the result please intimate about it to us all.> But one thing is certain which we must all know.Both tropical and sidereal zodiacs are necessary for the vedic astrology.The two sankrantis are to be within the same full moon zone.This is the only parameter for the coordination of the two.This is known by the experts of vedic calendar( Dharma shastris).The very word vedic means concerning dharma shastras.So no matter what the result, the only way to save vedic jyotish is by shifting all the rashis by 30 degrees by the sayan or the tropical way and apply the nirayan system for another 1500 to 2000 years.This is in accordance with the vedanga jyotish principles.This is the only traditinal way to reform.It is a foregone conclusion, if any one

wants ot come to lasting solution.> regards,> Hari Malla> > > > > > zaobnali <zaob16 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, May 15, 2009 5:12:03 PM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Test of tropical versus sidereal zodiac> > > > Dear All, > > Glad to join this forum.> > Vedic astrologer Ersnt Wilhelm is conducting a statistical query to determine which of the zodiacs - tropical or sidereal - works better. Those of you who are interested and have an accurate time of birth are encouraged to fill out the test. Ernst reports that test 2 is showing some quite rewarding results. So far more than 378 people have taken the test and results are consistently aligning with the same calculations on all three questions, which is quite exciting. Hopefully a few hundred more people

will take the test over the weekend and then he can reveal the results to you all. > > http://www.isjyotis h.com/> > Thanks,> Boaz>

May 17, 2009

Dear Mr. Boaz,

After the correction, the name of present Libra becomes Scorpio and Mercury

instead of being in Libra will be in Scorpio. From the tropical viewpoint, the

present Pisces has become 80 precent Aries, ayanamsa being nearly 24

degrees.This is the coordinated soli-lunar correction.This correction is

demanded by the present equinox being closeer to the first point (sankranti) of

Meen(Pisces) and not near the first of point of Mesh(Aries).Since we have to

take the joint consideration of the sun and the moon both,it is high time to

shift the soli-lunar sidereal rashi by thirty degrees i.e. the new name of the

epochal Mesh(epochal sidereal Aries) is to be given to the present Meen

(original Pisces).

This is the necessaity of joint soli-lunar calender.This is to honour the lunar

dates equal to or a little more than to the solar dates.This is the rule of

dharmas shastras, when the lunar dates are given priority.After the correction

the sidereal rashis become more accurate in the joint soli- lunar prediction in

astrology and the religioius festivals are also celebrated at the correct lunar

season and date.At present the link between the lunar date and the solar date

has broken.The intended limit of the rule of adhimas has been violated.It has

become something like the moslem lunar date without lunar seasons. After the

correction the predictions are expected to be more accurate in the soli-lunar

sense or the joint lagan-lunar rashi.Thanking you,

Regards,

Hari Malla

, " zaobnali " <zaob16 wrote:

>

> Dear Hari Malla,

>

> I don't fully follow your argument. I think the rashis should be defined

consistently mathematically according to some principle be it nirayan or sayana.

The soli-lunar correction are usually performed to align the chandra calendar

with the solar one. Could you clarify what it means to have one's say Mercury in

Libra according to your system.

>

> Thanks

> Boaz

>

> , " harimalla@ " <harimalla@>

wrote:

> >

> > Dear Mr. Boaz,

> > I am in agreement with you.But my simple request is in our soli-lunar