Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 @ Bhaskar Jee : I detest the use of first name. Even servants were called with " Jee " in my family. We are strangers here in forums, and I will prefer to remain a stranger to almost everyone here. Mr Bhaskar says : " I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities. " I will like to elaborate my methods in forums. But I will be very busy in near future. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:56:18 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay, I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > -VJ > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinayji, > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay jee, That may have been a mistake on my part, but for just once. I normally address even my servants as " jee " . Good, so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when confronted to prove your predictive abilities. But I will wait. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > @ Bhaskar Jee : > > I detest the use of first name. Even servants were called with " Jee " in my family. We are strangers here in forums, and I will prefer to remain a stranger to almost everyone here. > > > Mr Bhaskar says : " I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities. " > > I will like to elaborate my methods in forums. But I will be very busy in near future. > > -VJ > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:56:18 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay, > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > best wishes, > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money .. > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > you say: > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > even 30000 BC'' > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > discovered in India? > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > best wishes > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > to > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > origin??? > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > consequence relation. > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > result : loss. > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > really appreciate knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > need same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > the same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot prove that you know " something " ? You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken glass pieces in his kitty. Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been crushed by now. So what have you got ? Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly but just rattling in the air. If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present set up of mind. I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free softwares in future. > > > -VJ > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge made over Lanka is to be believed. > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than Christians do. > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day authors. > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put your theories upon. If You have some light > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for astrology , single handedly. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ ....> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > you say: > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > discovered in India? > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > > to > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > > think? > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > thanks > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > > culturally. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > > readings? > > > > - > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > > need same? > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > > the same? > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Bhaskar Jee, Why you cannot control your language ? Was it necessary to write thus : " so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when confronted to prove your predictive abilities " My mundane father (5 times Lok Sabha member) has recently died. Although I renounced family relations long ago due to my monkhood, I have to take care of a lot of his unfinished social works. Moreover, I am the trustee of many (Sanskrit) schools and colleges. I have been entrusted with the task of bringing out an astrological magazine for KSDS University. I have to attend conferences and seminars. These tasks are in addition to my normal tasks of writing books, articles and softwares. Making predictions is possible only at leisure. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:44:52 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay jee, That may have been a mistake on my part, but for just once. I normally address even my servants as " jee " . Good, so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when confronted to prove your predictive abilities. But I will wait. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > @ Bhaskar Jee : > > I detest the use of first name. Even servants were called with " Jee " in my family. We are strangers here in forums, and I will prefer to remain a stranger to almost everyone here. > > > Mr Bhaskar says : " I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities. " > > I will like to elaborate my methods in forums. But I will be very busy in near future. > > -VJ > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:56:18 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay, > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > best wishes, > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money ... > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > you say: > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > even 30000 BC'' > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > discovered in India? > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > best wishes > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > to > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > origin??? > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > consequence relation. > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > result : loss. > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > really appreciate knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > need same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > the same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Bhaskar Jee, I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : " praNaam sir, sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know that already and u dont need any confirmation from anyone else. just thought i should let u know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative the last time(about fonts and vb errors). and its accurate till prana dashas. the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). using default windows theme now and can see itrans normally. it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. another time my firend fought with a lady manager and it was there in the prana dasha (bphs).......... " -VJ ============= ============== ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay ji, Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot prove that you know " something " ? You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken glass pieces in his kitty. Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been crushed by now. So what have you got ? Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly but just rattling in the air. If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present set up of mind. I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free softwares in future. > > > -VJ > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge made over Lanka is to be believed. > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than Christians do. > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day authors. > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put your theories upon. If You have some light > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for astrology , single handedly. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ .....> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > you say: > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > discovered in India? > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > > to > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > > think? > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > thanks > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > > culturally. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > > readings? > > > > - > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > > need same? > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > > the same? > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Bhai Vinay ji, I am sorry if you found my language offensive. yes I understand the constraints and restraints of time, in the modern day world. I am already a one step less than Lok sabha member, but nobody knows this, for i dont proclaim this. Bhai you are great, You are attending seminars and conferences and probably presiding over these. I am an ordinary man just into making two ends meet for the family, and a bit touchy about my religion, India, vedas and the astrology subject and its Masters of india. What am I here for, I will do the predicting job, do not worry. You can just pass me the Big shots whom you have befriended due to connections of your fathers position. That would ease out my financial positions. Please do not mind my language which is not meant to be understood the way its written. I am not good at English and talk straight without diplomacy which is my drawback. But remember whenever it is the cause of Dignity for india at stake, or the dignity of astrology or Vedas or the Vedic Sciences, you may always count me in, and near by your side. We can settle our individual differences later on after we have settled our score with the foreigners who wish to disgrace our Culture. United we stand, and divided we fall. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > Why you cannot control your language ? Was it necessary to write thus : " so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when confronted to prove your predictive abilities " > > My mundane father (5 times Lok Sabha member) has recently died. Although I renounced family relations long ago due to my monkhood, I have to take care of a lot of his unfinished social works. Moreover, I am the trustee of many (Sanskrit) schools and colleges. I have been entrusted with the task of bringing out an astrological magazine for KSDS University. I have to attend conferences and seminars. These tasks are in addition to my normal tasks of writing books, articles and softwares. Making predictions is possible only at leisure. > > > -VJ > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:44:52 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > That may have been a mistake on my part, but for just once. I normally > address even my servants as " jee " . > > Good, so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when > confronted to prove your predictive abilities. > > But I will wait. > > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > @ Bhaskar Jee : > > > > I detest the use of first name. Even servants were called with " Jee " > in my family. We are strangers here in forums, and I will prefer > to remain a stranger to almost everyone here. > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar says : " I would like you to predict here too on the groups > so that all could witness your predictive abilities. " > > > > I will like to elaborate my methods in forums. But I will be > very busy in near future. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:56:18 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to > impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This > is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable > issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them > effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have > claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and > we all can learn from you. > > > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > wrote: > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested > me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the > same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised > to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or > any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is > impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should > stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I > really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by > rote in early boyhood. > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting > in > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > observation, or > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > enough > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who > had > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > developed > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > can > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money > .. > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > 2,50000 > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > one > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > qualms > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > you say: > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > paintings of > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > discovered in India? > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > paintings > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > ancient > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > Astrology > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > read > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > may > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > Vedas > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > But > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > of > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > Hence, > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > meaningless, > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > discussed > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > forwarded. > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > was > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was > said > > > to > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > lived > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 > BC, > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > that > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > for > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that > the > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > in > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > arrived > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > derivatives > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > is > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > That > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > which > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > all > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > and > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > was > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > that > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > ideas, > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > it. > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > houses > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer > and > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > common > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > state > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > cause : > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > result ; > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > the > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > glory, > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > Power. > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > its > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > design > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > shown > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > Nishkaama > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > the > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > death > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > and > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > in > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > ritus. > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > from > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > Vedic. > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts > of > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > those of > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there > was > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > astrologers. > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > proof > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > with > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > precise if > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > many > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > which > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which > show > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > have > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't > you > > > think? > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > evidence > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > would > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > thanks > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion > to a > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > contain > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > roots, > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > is an > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > Babylonians > > > culturally. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > delivering > > > readings? > > > > - > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those > who > > > need same? > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > doing > > > the same? > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay jee, Ha Ha. That was a good one. See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. regards/Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > " > > praNaam sir, > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > that already and u dont need any confirmation > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > the last time(about fonts and vb > errors). > > and its accurate till prana > dashas. > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > normally. > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > another time > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > there in the prana dasha (bphs).......... " > > -VJ > ============= ============== > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > prove that you know " something " ? > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > glass pieces in his kitty. > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > but just rattling in the air. > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > set up of mind. > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > I have yet to see > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > softwares in future. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > Christians do. > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > authors. > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > your theories upon. If You have some light > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > astrology , single handedly. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > ....> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > sitting in > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > observation, or > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > enough > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > who had > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > developed > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > can > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > actual > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > money . > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > 2,50000 > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > the > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > one > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > qualms > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > you say: > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > paintings of > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > of > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > paintings > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > ancient > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > best wishes > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > Astrology > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > read > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > may > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > Vedas > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > But > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > of > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > Hence, > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > meaningless, > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > discussed > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > forwarded. > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > therefore > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > was > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > was said > > > > to > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > 2nd > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > lived > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > 3000 BC, > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > that > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > for > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > that the > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > in > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > for > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > to > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > arrived > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > for > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > derivatives > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > is > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > That > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > which > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > all > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > and > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > being > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > was > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > that > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > ideas, > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > it. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > houses > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > Sumer and > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > and > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > common > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > 7th > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > state > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > cause : > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > (8th > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > Death, > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > and > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > result ; > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > the > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > glory, > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > Power. > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > : > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > its > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > design > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > shown > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > Nishkaama > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > the > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > death > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > and > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > in > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > remains > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > a > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > state > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > ritus. > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > from > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > Vedic. > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > experts of > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > those of > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > there was > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > proof > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > with > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > precise if > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > many > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > which > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > which show > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > the > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > on > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > mammoth > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > have > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > India, > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > don't you > > > > think? > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > evidence > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > would > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > thanks > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > religion to a > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > contain > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > roots, > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > is an > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > ancient > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > Babylonians > > > > culturally. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > delivering > > > > readings? > > > > > - > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > those who > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > doing > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay I will show some of the qualities you assign to me in your reply to people who know me well, I'm sure they will be very amused at the assumptions you make about my knowledge, expertise, or lack of it, and attitude:O) Thankyou, at least you made me smile, especially the part where you guess that I'm ''not interested in learning the vedic method'' How you can assume this from a simple question is simply astounding and amusingly far from the truth. I already know the things you have taken time to write about,so you needn't have taken time to write those. Because I already know of these I didn't ask you any more about them as I didn't want to waste time on something I learned many years ago. If you had told me in answer to my original simple question that you are not interested in artefacts reflecting the practise of astronomy or astrology in ancient times, then that was all you ever needed to say. I have since found the information I was looking for. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:06 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> @ Margie : Archaeology was my passion. I have personally investigated 65 sites, most of them not visited by any archaeologist. But later I realized archaeology has its own limitations and it cannot recreate the living history, it can only help in recreating the physical setting in which societies evolved. Then I widened my field, and devoted 12 years to comparative linguistics. I had a blind faith in Indo-Europeanist propaganda, because I knew no alternative, and was a hardcore atheist. It was after decades of sincere efforts that God pitied me and opened my eyes gradually. Then, I restarted studying Jyotisha. After some years, I came to the surprising conclusion that both Drikpakshiya physical astronomy and Saurpakshiya non-physical astronomy thrived in ancient India, although none of them relied upon physical instruments. There was a third school, comprising of persons like you, who relied upon or tried to rely upon physical instruments. A scholar at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research writes : " Design and description of Vedis (altars) and other religious sites have all been shown to be sensitive to the presence or absence of a particular astronomical object in a particular location. " It proves that astronomical observation was in vogue. But this was a later development, and observatories in India were a creation of early modern period, under muslim influence. If Margie wants to prove that " physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations " should be used as a proof of existence of astronomy or astrology, then astronomy or astrology originated in India only in late 18th century when observatories were built by Moghul vassals. On the other hand, Stonehenge may prove the existence of astronomy or astrology in UK in remote antiquity. But is such a conclusion sensible ?? Whatever was the use of Stonehenge, has its legacy survived anywhere in any discernible form ? in texts written after 500 AD, some artefacts are mentioned, which I am not interested in investigating, because they could not give the astonishingly accurate results mentioned in some ancient texts. For instance, read the article at http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha+vs+Precession which proves that astonishingly accurate results were obtained in ancient India WITHOUT any physical instruments of comparable accuracy. The conclusion is that physical observation existed, but was not valued by prominent astronomers / astrologers. How, then, they deduced appreciably accurate results ? As shown in this article, Hipparchus got a value 36000 for precessional period, while Bhaskara cited Shruti (Vedic oral tradition) which gave a period very close to modern value. Similarly, " the average length of the tropical year as 365.2421756 days, which is only 1.4 seconds shorter than the modern value of 365.2421904 days (J2000). This estimate remained the most accurate approximation for the length of the tropical year anywhere in the world " (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya_Siddhanta). Suryasiddhantic synodical month has a value of 29.53058794607 days, which is highly accurate. Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek or Chinese values were much cruder. If physical instruments and observatories give better results, how it could happen that a country showing no proof of any observatory and no major finding of astronomical artifacts (according to Margie) could produce better results than those countries which relied more on physical instruments? I, therefore, repeat : " The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen... but you are not interested in learning the Vedic method " , as you say " This (physical arifacts in ancient India) was all I asked, nothing more. " -VJ ================== ====================== ================ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:00:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay My original question was a simple one. Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? I thought it was a straightforward question, and I was hoping to find out yes or no, or to be given some examples of ancient artefacts if any did exist. It may be that there are many but you know of none. That's fine. This was all I asked, nothing more. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:11 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> To Margie ; Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. -Vinay Jha ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yes it was a fascinating technique: Trachtenburg system. Kind of similar to the exponential (log) system where addition was used for multiplication and so on... RR , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > How is this different from the Trachenberg system (which i > learned in my teens but never practised till date) ? > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > you say: > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > even 30000 BC'' > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > discovered in India? > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > best wishes > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > to > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > origin??? > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > consequence relation. > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > result : loss. > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > really appreciate knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > need same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > the same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Bhaskar Jee, I have no issue against you. We have common cause. But sometimes you do not use good language. Word is God (Shabda is Brahma). The big shots give their real birthtime only to to their family astrologers on the condition of secrecy. I possess the real birthtime of some luminaries, but neither due to my family relations nor due to my clientage . I got some information from my astrologer friends and not directly from the big shots. I am under an oath of never earning a paisa out of kundali making. Hence I will be glad if I could pass big shots to you, but the fact is that I have no clients. I always try avoid making individual horoscopes, excepting those needed for research purposes. You will really gain financially and otherwise if you use my software. Please believe me, it will give far better results than any other software. And is is free. There is no defect in the software. There must be virus or some other problem in your machine. A defective software will not install in any machine. I started distributing my software since 2005 and no defect has been found in it till now. Some features need to me expanded. If any big shot comes directly to me, I will try to pass it to you. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Wednesday, April 1, 2009 11:47:54 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Bhai Vinay ji, I am sorry if you found my language offensive. yes I understand the constraints and restraints of time, in the modern day world. I am already a one step less than Lok sabha member, but nobody knows this, for i dont proclaim this. Bhai you are great, You are attending seminars and conferences and probably presiding over these. I am an ordinary man just into making two ends meet for the family, and a bit touchy about my religion, India, vedas and the astrology subject and its Masters of india. What am I here for, I will do the predicting job, do not worry. You can just pass me the Big shots whom you have befriended due to connections of your fathers position. That would ease out my financial positions. Please do not mind my language which is not meant to be understood the way its written. I am not good at English and talk straight without diplomacy which is my drawback. But remember whenever it is the cause of Dignity for india at stake, or the dignity of astrology or Vedas or the Vedic Sciences, you may always count me in, and near by your side. We can settle our individual differences later on after we have settled our score with the foreigners who wish to disgrace our Culture. United we stand, and divided we fall. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > Why you cannot control your language ? Was it necessary to write thus : " so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when confronted to prove your predictive abilities " > > My mundane father (5 times Lok Sabha member) has recently died. Although I renounced family relations long ago due to my monkhood, I have to take care of a lot of his unfinished social works. Moreover, I am the trustee of many (Sanskrit) schools and colleges. I have been entrusted with the task of bringing out an astrological magazine for KSDS University. I have to attend conferences and seminars. These tasks are in addition to my normal tasks of writing books, articles and softwares. Making predictions is possible only at leisure. > > > -VJ > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:44:52 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > That may have been a mistake on my part, but for just once. I normally > address even my servants as " jee " . > > Good, so you have already been ready with an alibi, to back out when > confronted to prove your predictive abilities. > > But I will wait. > > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > @ Bhaskar Jee : > > > > I detest the use of first name. Even servants were called with " Jee " > in my family. We are strangers here in forums, and I will prefer > to remain a stranger to almost everyone here. > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar says : " I would like you to predict here too on the groups > so that all could witness your predictive abilities. " > > > > I will like to elaborate my methods in forums. But I will be > very busy in near future. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 6:56:18 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to > impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This > is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable > issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them > effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have > claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and > we all can learn from you. > > > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > wrote: > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested > me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the > same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised > to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or > any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is > impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should > stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I > really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by > rote in early boyhood. > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting > in > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > observation, or > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > enough > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who > had > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > developed > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > can > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money > .. > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > 2,50000 > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > one > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > qualms > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > you say: > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > paintings of > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > discovered in India? > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > paintings > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > ancient > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > Astrology > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > read > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > may > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > Vedas > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > But > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > of > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > Hence, > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > meaningless, > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > discussed > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > forwarded. > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > was > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was > said > > > to > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > lived > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 > BC, > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > that > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > for > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that > the > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > in > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > arrived > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > derivatives > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > is > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > That > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > which > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > all > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > and > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > was > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > that > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > ideas, > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > it. > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > houses > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer > and > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > common > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > state > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > cause : > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > result ; > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > the > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > glory, > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > Power. > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > its > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > design > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > shown > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > Nishkaama > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > the > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > death > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > and > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > in > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > ritus. > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > from > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > Vedic. > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts > of > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > those of > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there > was > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > astrologers. > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > proof > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > with > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > precise if > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > many > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > which > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which > show > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > have > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't > you > > > think? > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > evidence > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > would > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > thanks > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion > to a > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > contain > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > roots, > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > is an > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > - > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > Babylonians > > > culturally. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > delivering > > > readings? > > > > - > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those > who > > > need same? > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > doing > > > the same? > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Bhaskar Jee, You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay jee, Ha Ha. That was a good one. See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. regards/Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > " > > praNaam sir, > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > that already and u dont need any confirmation > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > the last time(about fonts and vb > errors). > > and its accurate till prana > dashas. > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > normally. > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > another time > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > -VJ > ============ = ============ == > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > prove that you know " something " ? > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > glass pieces in his kitty. > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > but just rattling in the air. > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > set up of mind. > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > I have yet to see > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > softwares in future. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > Christians do. > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > authors. > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > your theories upon. If You have some light > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > astrology , single handedly. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > ....> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > sitting in > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > observation, or > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > enough > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > who had > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > developed > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > can > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > actual > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > money . > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > 2,50000 > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > the > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > one > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > qualms > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > you say: > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > paintings of > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > of > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > paintings > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > ancient > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > best wishes > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > Astrology > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > read > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > may > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > Vedas > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > But > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > of > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > Hence, > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > meaningless, > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > discussed > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > forwarded. > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > therefore > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > was > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > was said > > > > to > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > 2nd > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > lived > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > 3000 BC, > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > that > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > for > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > that the > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > in > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > for > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > to > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > arrived > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > for > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > derivatives > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > is > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > That > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > which > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > all > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > and > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > being > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > was > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > that > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > ideas, > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > it. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > houses > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > Sumer and > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > and > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > common > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > 7th > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > state > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > cause : > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > (8th > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > Death, > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > and > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > result ; > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > the > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > glory, > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > Power. > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > : > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > its > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > design > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > shown > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > Nishkaama > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > the > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > death > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > and > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > in > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > remains > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > a > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > state > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > ritus. > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > from > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > Vedic. > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > experts of > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > those of > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > there was > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > proof > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > with > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > precise if > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > many > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > which > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > which show > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > the > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > on > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > mammoth > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > have > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > India, > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > don't you > > > > think? > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > evidence > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > would > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > thanks > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > religion to a > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > contain > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > roots, > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > is an > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > ancient > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > Babylonians > > > > culturally. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > delivering > > > > readings? > > > > > - > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > those who > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > doing > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 @ Margie : Margie is adamant on misinterpreting my replies. I never questioned her knowledge or lack of it. But I am sure Margie is not correct in saying : " I already know the things you have taken time to write about " . Either Margie is too busy to read the things I provided a link of, or is disinterested in those things. She certainly did not know about the knowledge of precessional and glacial cyles in ancient India because no Eastern or Western commentator has ever mentioned these things. No commentator of Siddhanta Shiromani has ever explained those verses which I asked Margie to read at my website. Even the author of Siddhanta Shiromani said that he got these formulas from oral Vedic tradition : this was said by Bhaskara-II in Vaasanaa-bhaashya of Siddhanta Shiromani. Vaasanaa-bhaashyahas never been translated. How Margie knew these things which I am the first person to translate and explain ?? I do not want to say that Margie is lying , but I am sure Margie is not interested in knowing some important aspects of Vedic Astronomy/Astrology which have been neglected or distorted by modern commentators. My offer to explain these things was taken as an insult, hence I retract my offer of explaining these things to Margie. May she rejoice in her knowledge of socalled Vedic Astrology. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Thursday, April 2, 2009 1:05:32 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I will show some of the qualities you assign to me in your reply to people who know me well, I'm sure they will be very amused at the assumptions you make about my knowledge, expertise, or lack of it, and attitude:O) Thankyou, at least you made me smile, especially the part where you guess that I'm ''not interested in learning the vedic method'' How you can assume this from a simple question is simply astounding and amusingly far from the truth. I already know the things you have taken time to write about,so you needn't have taken time to write those. Because I already know of these I didn't ask you any more about them as I didn't want to waste time on something I learned many years ago. If you had told me in answer to my original simple question that you are not interested in artefacts reflecting the practise of astronomy or astrology in ancient times, then that was all you ever needed to say. I have since found the information I was looking for. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:06 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> @ Margie : Archaeology was my passion. I have personally investigated 65 sites, most of them not visited by any archaeologist. But later I realized archaeology has its own limitations and it cannot recreate the living history, it can only help in recreating the physical setting in which societies evolved. Then I widened my field, and devoted 12 years to comparative linguistics. I had a blind faith in Indo-Europeanist propaganda, because I knew no alternative, and was a hardcore atheist. It was after decades of sincere efforts that God pitied me and opened my eyes gradually. Then, I restarted studying Jyotisha. After some years, I came to the surprising conclusion that both Drikpakshiya physical astronomy and Saurpakshiya non-physical astronomy thrived in ancient India, although none of them relied upon physical instruments. There was a third school, comprising of persons like you, who relied upon or tried to rely upon physical instruments. A scholar at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research writes : " Design and description of Vedis (altars) and other religious sites have all been shown to be sensitive to the presence or absence of a particular astronomical object in a particular location. " It proves that astronomical observation was in vogue. But this was a later development, and observatories in India were a creation of early modern period, under muslim influence. If Margie wants to prove that " physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations " should be used as a proof of existence of astronomy or astrology, then astronomy or astrology originated in India only in late 18th century when observatories were built by Moghul vassals. On the other hand, Stonehenge may prove the existence of astronomy or astrology in UK in remote antiquity. But is such a conclusion sensible ?? Whatever was the use of Stonehenge, has its legacy survived anywhere in any discernible form ? in texts written after 500 AD, some artefacts are mentioned, which I am not interested in investigating, because they could not give the astonishingly accurate results mentioned in some ancient texts. For instance, read the article at http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha+ vs+Precession which proves that astonishingly accurate results were obtained in ancient India WITHOUT any physical instruments of comparable accuracy. The conclusion is that physical observation existed, but was not valued by prominent astronomers / astrologers. How, then, they deduced appreciably accurate results ? As shown in this article, Hipparchus got a value 36000 for precessional period, while Bhaskara cited Shruti (Vedic oral tradition) which gave a period very close to modern value. Similarly, " the average length of the tropical year as 365.2421756 days, which is only 1.4 seconds shorter than the modern value of 365.2421904 days (J2000). This estimate remained the most accurate approximation for the length of the tropical year anywhere in the world " (cf. http://en.wikipedia ..org/wiki/ Surya_Siddhanta). Suryasiddhantic synodical month has a value of 29.53058794607 days, which is highly accurate. Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek or Chinese values were much cruder. If physical instruments and observatories give better results, how it could happen that a country showing no proof of any observatory and no major finding of astronomical artifacts (according to Margie) could produce better results than those countries which relied more on physical instruments? I, therefore, repeat : " The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen... but you are not interested in learning the Vedic method " , as you say " This (physical arifacts in ancient India) was all I asked, nothing more. " -VJ ============ ====== ============ ========= = ============ ==== ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:00:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay My original question was a simple one. Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? I thought it was a straightforward question, and I was hoping to find out yes or no, or to be given some examples of ancient artefacts if any did exist. It may be that there are many but you know of none. That's fine. This was all I asked, nothing more. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:11 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> To Margie ; Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. -Vinay Jha ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha jee, The short of it - Please give the link of your software once again. I will try to download it once again. I have no viruses in my system because I use Licensed Anti Virus programmes for which i pay full money. And the long of it - I am not having precious time to waste in futile discussions with you or anybody, so no one is doing this on purpose. You started this with Marg hence I entered the thread . I have nothing against you, your software or your academics. I also appreciate wherever I find the reason to do so. If I test your software and do some charts and find it worthy enough, I will certainly appreciate. I am ignoring rest of your unsavoury remarks for me because responding would again lead to dissipation of energy and waste of time. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > " > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > errors). > > > > and its accurate till prana > > dashas. > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > normally. > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > another time > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > -VJ > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > set up of mind. > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > I have yet to see > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > Christians do. > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > authors. > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > sitting in > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > observation, or > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > enough > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > who had > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > developed > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > can > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > actual > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > money . > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > 2,50000 > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > the > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > one > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > qualms > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > paintings of > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > of > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > paintings > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > ancient > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > Astrology > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > read > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > may > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > Vedas > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > But > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > of > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > Hence, > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > meaningless, > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > discussed > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > forwarded. > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > therefore > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > was > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > was said > > > > > to > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > 2nd > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > lived > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > 3000 BC, > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > that > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > for > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > that the > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > in > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > for > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > to > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > arrived > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > for > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > derivatives > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > is > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > That > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > which > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > all > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > and > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > being > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > was > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > that > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > ideas, > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > houses > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > Sumer and > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > and > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > common > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > 7th > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > state > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > cause : > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > (8th > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > Death, > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > and > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > result ; > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > the > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > glory, > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > : > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > its > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > design > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > shown > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > Nishkaama > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > the > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > death > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > and > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > in > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > remains > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > a > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > state > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > ritus. > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > from > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > Vedic. > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > experts of > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > those of > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > there was > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > proof > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > with > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > precise if > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > many > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > which > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > which show > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > the > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > on > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > mammoth > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > have > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > India, > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > don't you > > > > > think? > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > evidence > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > would > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > religion to a > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > contain > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > roots, > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > is an > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > ancient > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > Babylonians > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > delivering > > > > > readings? > > > > > > - > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > those who > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > doing > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha jee, Let me clear this, that I have never approached you for learning secrets of any kind ever. I have enough secrets on my own without wanting any further help. It would not be in good taste to comment on Moderator of another Group, behind his back. As far as I remember and many of us do, he had given you full space and enough time to prove or show or teach or explain what secrets you yourself proclaimed to teach the ignorant members of that forum and to members of every other forum. But alas this knowledge never came since it was actually there in your software data and untangible for interpretations as you mention. And unfortunately your software was giving download problems which we have hundreds of mails in various Groups to confirm this. But you have been give a last chance now to showcase your secrets to us unworthy and without jigyaasa persons.When your link comes I will try this for the last time and report. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > " > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > errors). > > > > and its accurate till prana > > dashas. > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > normally. > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > another time > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > -VJ > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > set up of mind. > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > I have yet to see > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > Christians do. > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > authors. > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > sitting in > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > observation, or > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > enough > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > who had > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > developed > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > can > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > actual > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > money . > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > 2,50000 > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > the > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > one > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > qualms > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > paintings of > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > of > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > paintings > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > ancient > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > Astrology > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > read > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > may > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > Vedas > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > But > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > of > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > Hence, > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > meaningless, > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > discussed > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > forwarded. > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > therefore > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > was > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > was said > > > > > to > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > 2nd > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > lived > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > 3000 BC, > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > that > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > for > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > that the > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > in > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > for > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > to > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > arrived > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > for > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > derivatives > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > is > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > That > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > which > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > all > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > and > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > being > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > was > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > that > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > ideas, > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > houses > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > Sumer and > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > and > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > common > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > 7th > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > state > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > cause : > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > (8th > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > Death, > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > and > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > result ; > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > the > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > glory, > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > : > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > its > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > design > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > shown > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > Nishkaama > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > the > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > death > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > and > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > in > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > remains > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > a > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > state > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > ritus. > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > from > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > Vedic. > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > experts of > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > those of > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > there was > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > proof > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > with > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > precise if > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > many > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > which > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > which show > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > the > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > on > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > mammoth > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > have > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > India, > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > don't you > > > > > think? > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > evidence > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > would > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > religion to a > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > contain > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > roots, > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > is an > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > ancient > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > Babylonians > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > delivering > > > > > readings? > > > > > > - > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > those who > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > doing > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear friends, This thread for me is over now. 1)Mr Vinay Jha is to provide me the link for his secrets to be known from his software since they are supposed to mathematical and computational secrets apparently, we cannot move ahead.There is nothing tangible to discuss with regards to predictive inputs of astrology. 2)Marg chooses not to respond to my mails and neither is able to provide any proof for her claims, which is okay, for I never believed them. And do not wish to be hard on pressing for same. I have that normal courtesy in me. She is a respectable member no doubt. 3)Some new member who entered the thread with his gibberish was understandable so no use communicating with him as his mails were uneducative and leading nowhere. So being a person who values time, I bow out of this thread and implore the above members not to push me back here with any more provocating statements with regards to indian astrology, Indian culture or origins of same. best wishes to all, Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Vinay Jha jee, > > Let me clear this, that I have never approached you for learning secrets of any kind ever. I have enough secrets on my own without wanting any further help. > > It would not be in good taste to comment on Moderator of another Group, behind his back. As far as I remember and many of us do, he had given you full space and enough time to prove or show or teach or explain what secrets you yourself proclaimed to teach the ignorant members of that forum and to members of every other forum. But alas this knowledge never came since it was actually there in your software data and untangible for interpretations as you mention. And unfortunately your software was giving download problems which we have hundreds of mails in various Groups to confirm this. > > But you have been give a last chance now to showcase your secrets to us unworthy and without jigyaasa persons.When your link comes I will try this for the last time and report. > > Bhaskar. > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@> > > > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > > > " > > > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > > errors). > > > > > > and its accurate till prana > > > dashas. > > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > > normally. > > > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > > another time > > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > > set up of mind. > > > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > > I have yet to see > > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > > Christians do. > > > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > > authors. > > > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > > sitting in > > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > > observation, or > > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > > enough > > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > > who had > > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > > developed > > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > > can > > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > > actual > > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > > money . > > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > > 2,50000 > > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > > the > > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > > one > > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > > qualms > > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > > paintings of > > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > > of > > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > > paintings > > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > > ancient > > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > > Astrology > > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > > read > > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > > may > > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > > Vedas > > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > > But > > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > > of > > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > > Hence, > > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > > meaningless, > > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > > discussed > > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > > forwarded. > > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > > therefore > > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > > was > > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > > was said > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > > 2nd > > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > > lived > > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > > 3000 BC, > > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > > that > > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > > for > > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > > that the > > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > > in > > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > > for > > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > > to > > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > > arrived > > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > > for > > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > > derivatives > > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > > is > > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > > That > > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > > which > > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > > all > > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > > and > > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > > being > > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > > was > > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > > that > > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > > ideas, > > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > > houses > > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > > Sumer and > > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > > and > > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > > common > > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > > 7th > > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > > state > > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > > cause : > > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > > (8th > > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > > Death, > > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > > and > > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > > result ; > > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > > the > > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > > glory, > > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > > : > > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > > its > > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > > design > > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > > shown > > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > > Nishkaama > > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > > the > > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > > death > > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > > and > > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > > in > > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > > remains > > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > > a > > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > > state > > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > > ritus. > > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > > from > > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > > Vedic. > > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > > experts of > > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > > those of > > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > > there was > > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > > proof > > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > > with > > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > > precise if > > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > > many > > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > > which > > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > > which show > > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > > the > > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > > on > > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > > mammoth > > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > > have > > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > > India, > > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > > don't you > > > > > > think? > > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > > evidence > > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > > would > > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > > religion to a > > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > > contain > > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > > roots, > > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > > is an > > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > > ancient > > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > > Babylonians > > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > > delivering > > > > > > readings? > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > > those who > > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > > doing > > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear Marg it is strange, but true we cant find much of what u want to know that u have not found any physical evidence of any archia material in India WHY WE INDIANS HAVE FALLEN PREY TO the " Stockolm syndrome " I don't think I need to explain this term to u if u r from the west Indian history is conviently distored by the invaders like Biriths who used it as a Admin tool they divided India in to 2 parts NORTH SOUTH THEN NORTH AS HIMDU-MUSLIM SOUTH ON ARYAN, DRAVIDIAN and all over distorted the caste picture India after becoming Indipendedt under its socialist leanings and love ro all the comunists gave this LEFT brains the job of education culture for them anyting invaders did was superior to Hindu till this date the deride, denigrate all Hindu/vedic concepts and project all the crimes of the invaders and their tribes as sacred things and conveniently want us to ignore them for unity sake for who just otes of their dedicated poor, sick mentally backward ppl only they thrive in poverty, sick pouplation and Minorites who r bron as more of victis of invaders sadly cherish their forced religion state again stockholm syndrome INDIAN GOVTS NEVER SPENT A PIE ON ARCHIOLOGY, DIGGING OUR PAST OR TRYING TO UNEARTHOUR PAST NAX some in TN do it rest of India r not keeon on knowing their past, they r taught by Nehruvian model to hate, feel ashamed of being a Hindu, do everything to keep them backard and called be obscurunists what happened in Manglore pubs is bad from both sides one the clb had no permission to run as night club, max a restarunt but the attendece was for alchol, daces again unlwaful the crime of the Hindu brigade did in throwing the parymen is in bad taste but this was the job of the cops who never did it so instead of treeating it as a law and order problem our media which is secular or left parties driven tarnishes the hindus not the criminals who ran the illigal bar had they treated the bar and the saffron brigade in same light we can understand they r ok with one crime not the other but if this was a american club may be left partiees wud have risen against it COMING BACK TO UR MAIN POINT WE IN INDIA HAVE TO LEARN TO RESPECT AND CHERISH OUR HERITAGE AND WELL MEANING FINANCIALL WELL OF INDIASN MUST SPEND RESOURCES EVEN AID FROM WEST dig our past and show the world what we r than get such taunts from the west as our govt wont lift a finger on Hindu concerns Prashant On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Marg <margie9 wrote: > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching > by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are > constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there > are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful > calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have > star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible > circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe > over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the > phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is > odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of > very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically > located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate > knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > <%40> > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only > relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does > nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. > Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions > try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> > <%40> > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need > same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the > same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 OK Vinay, I certainly need to get back into academic precision when writing mails to you don't I? What I should have written in my last mail is this: I have already learned the things you wrote about in your reply. I would also point out that precessional and glacial cycles are not just peculiar to India, nor are sun spot cycles but I discuss these with astrologers on my astro weather group forum where we are all interested in such things. Your offer to explain them was not followed through by me because as any researcher knows it is better to keep on track when looking for certain info, than to constantly be distracted from the issue under study.I was looking for one piece of info, you couldn't provide it. It's as simple as that. I wont be reading or responding to this thread again, as I do have rather a lot to do. Feel free to make more assumptions about what I do or don't know. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:59 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> @ Margie : Margie is adamant on misinterpreting my replies. I never questioned her knowledge or lack of it. But I am sure Margie is not correct in saying : " I already know the things you have taken time to write about " . Either Margie is too busy to read the things I provided a link of, or is disinterested in those things. She certainly did not know about the knowledge of precessional and glacial cyles in ancient India because no Eastern or Western commentator has ever mentioned these things. No commentator of Siddhanta Shiromani has ever explained those verses which I asked Margie to read at my website. Even the author of Siddhanta Shiromani said that he got these formulas from oral Vedic tradition : this was said by Bhaskara-II in Vaasanaa-bhaashya of Siddhanta Shiromani. Vaasanaa-bhaashyahas never been translated. How Margie knew these things which I am the first person to translate and explain ?? I do not want to say that Margie is lying , but I am sure Margie is not interested in knowing some important aspects of Vedic Astronomy/Astrology which have been neglected or distorted by modern commentators. My offer to explain these things was taken as an insult, hence I retract my offer of explaining these things to Margie. May she rejoice in her knowledge of socalled Vedic Astrology. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Thursday, April 2, 2009 1:05:32 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I will show some of the qualities you assign to me in your reply to people who know me well, I'm sure they will be very amused at the assumptions you make about my knowledge, expertise, or lack of it, and attitude:O) Thankyou, at least you made me smile, especially the part where you guess that I'm ''not interested in learning the vedic method'' How you can assume this from a simple question is simply astounding and amusingly far from the truth. I already know the things you have taken time to write about,so you needn't have taken time to write those. Because I already know of these I didn't ask you any more about them as I didn't want to waste time on something I learned many years ago. If you had told me in answer to my original simple question that you are not interested in artefacts reflecting the practise of astronomy or astrology in ancient times, then that was all you ever needed to say. I have since found the information I was looking for. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:06 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> @ Margie : Archaeology was my passion. I have personally investigated 65 sites, most of them not visited by any archaeologist. But later I realized archaeology has its own limitations and it cannot recreate the living history, it can only help in recreating the physical setting in which societies evolved. Then I widened my field, and devoted 12 years to comparative linguistics. I had a blind faith in Indo-Europeanist propaganda, because I knew no alternative, and was a hardcore atheist. It was after decades of sincere efforts that God pitied me and opened my eyes gradually. Then, I restarted studying Jyotisha. After some years, I came to the surprising conclusion that both Drikpakshiya physical astronomy and Saurpakshiya non-physical astronomy thrived in ancient India, although none of them relied upon physical instruments. There was a third school, comprising of persons like you, who relied upon or tried to rely upon physical instruments. A scholar at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research writes : " Design and description of Vedis (altars) and other religious sites have all been shown to be sensitive to the presence or absence of a particular astronomical object in a particular location. " It proves that astronomical observation was in vogue. But this was a later development, and observatories in India were a creation of early modern period, under muslim influence. If Margie wants to prove that " physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations " should be used as a proof of existence of astronomy or astrology, then astronomy or astrology originated in India only in late 18th century when observatories were built by Moghul vassals. On the other hand, Stonehenge may prove the existence of astronomy or astrology in UK in remote antiquity. But is such a conclusion sensible ?? Whatever was the use of Stonehenge, has its legacy survived anywhere in any discernible form ? in texts written after 500 AD, some artefacts are mentioned, which I am not interested in investigating, because they could not give the astonishingly accurate results mentioned in some ancient texts. For instance, read the article at http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha+ vs+Precession which proves that astonishingly accurate results were obtained in ancient India WITHOUT any physical instruments of comparable accuracy. The conclusion is that physical observation existed, but was not valued by prominent astronomers / astrologers. How, then, they deduced appreciably accurate results ? As shown in this article, Hipparchus got a value 36000 for precessional period, while Bhaskara cited Shruti (Vedic oral tradition) which gave a period very close to modern value. Similarly, " the average length of the tropical year as 365.2421756 days, which is only 1.4 seconds shorter than the modern value of 365.2421904 days (J2000). This estimate remained the most accurate approximation for the length of the tropical year anywhere in the world " (cf. http://en.wikipedia ..org/wiki/ Surya_Siddhanta). Suryasiddhantic synodical month has a value of 29.53058794607 days, which is highly accurate. Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek or Chinese values were much cruder. If physical instruments and observatories give better results, how it could happen that a country showing no proof of any observatory and no major finding of astronomical artifacts (according to Margie) could produce better results than those countries which relied more on physical instruments? I, therefore, repeat : " The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen... but you are not interested in learning the Vedic method " , as you say " This (physical arifacts in ancient India) was all I asked, nothing more. " -VJ ============ ====== ============ ========= = ============ ==== ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:00:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay My original question was a simple one. Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? I thought it was a straightforward question, and I was hoping to find out yes or no, or to be given some examples of ancient artefacts if any did exist. It may be that there are many but you know of none. That's fine. This was all I asked, nothing more. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:11 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> To Margie ; Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. -Vinay Jha ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Bhaskar Jee, The link to my software is : http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Software One user told me that fancy settings for Windows are interfering with installation. Another user said my software wanted to install old version of some DLL files which he did not like. If such problems arise, please consult your technician. i never tested mu software on Vista, but it is okay for Win98 and all packs of XP. I thank you for your rational approach . I can re-compile my software again for virus-infected systems, by changing the extensions of *.exe files which will have to be manually renames to *.exe. But installation will take more time, which you may not like to afford. A simple alternative is to install the program as it is , and report me the problem in detail. I will suggest remedies. I assure you will be more than happy once you test my program for at least a dozen persons. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:32:18 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay Jha jee, The short of it - Please give the link of your software once again. I will try to download it once again. I have no viruses in my system because I use Licensed Anti Virus programmes for which i pay full money. And the long of it - I am not having precious time to waste in futile discussions with you or anybody, so no one is doing this on purpose. You started this with Marg hence I entered the thread . I have nothing against you, your software or your academics. I also appreciate wherever I find the reason to do so. If I test your software and do some charts and find it worthy enough, I will certainly appreciate. I am ignoring rest of your unsavoury remarks for me because responding would again lead to dissipation of energy and waste of time. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > -VJ > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > " > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > errors). > > > > and its accurate till prana > > dashas. > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > normally. > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > another time > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > -VJ > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > set up of mind. > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > I have yet to see > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > Christians do. > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > authors. > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > sitting in > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > observation, or > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > enough > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > who had > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > developed > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > can > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > actual > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > money . > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > 2,50000 > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > the > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > one > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > qualms > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > paintings of > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > of > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > paintings > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > ancient > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > Astrology > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > read > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > may > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > Vedas > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > But > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > of > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > Hence, > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > meaningless, > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > discussed > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > forwarded. > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > therefore > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > was > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > was said > > > > > to > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > 2nd > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > lived > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > 3000 BC, > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > that > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > for > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > that the > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > in > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > for > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > to > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > arrived > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > for > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > derivatives > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > is > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > That > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > which > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > all > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > and > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > being > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > was > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > that > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > ideas, > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > houses > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > Sumer and > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > and > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > common > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > 7th > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > state > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > cause : > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > (8th > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > Death, > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > and > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > result ; > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > the > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > glory, > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > : > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > its > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > design > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > shown > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > Nishkaama > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > the > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > death > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > and > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > in > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > remains > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > a > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > state > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > ritus. > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > from > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > Vedic. > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > experts of > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > those of > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > there was > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > proof > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > with > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > precise if > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > many > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > which > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > which show > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > the > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > on > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > mammoth > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > have > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > India, > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > don't you > > > > > think? > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > evidence > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > would > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > religion to a > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > contain > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > roots, > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > is an > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > ancient > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > Babylonians > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > delivering > > > > > readings? > > > > > > - > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > those who > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > doing > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Vinayji, 1) You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. 2) You said that Suniljee wants you to demonstrate your computing power like a madaari. Far from it I wanted to you to demonstarte you computing abilities like Shakuntal devi did and nobody has any doubt on her computing ability. Do you want to say Shakuntala Devi is a madaari(ni)? Why do you interpret things in the wrong way more usually than otherwuse? Or is it that you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic 3) As regards Tantra you misinformed the AIA group by saying that Tantra is un-Vedic and I simply corrected it and told you that the Kularnava tantra traces its origin to Veda. Then you said that in Tantra one has to get drunk heavily. I only corrected it by saying that Tantra recommends that one should take the substitutes. Then there is also the alternative procedure of Alipaan, which a symbolical drinking of a drop. However in case of one, who is used to drinking wines, only two-Tolas (ie. one ounce of wine, which is less than the safe limit of wine permitted by the World Health Organisation) was allowed. Now please do not pose the question as to whether the Tantric masters consulted WHO before fixing the two Tolas. You have already made enough of cheap fun of the Two Tolas due to your ignorance of the Tantric norms. 4) Vinayji please speak out only what is true. Which foul word did I use? Please have the guts to tell the forum. Please leave your dirty tactics of false accusations. Also your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. From the biographical details that we have of Adi Sankaracharya he told his mother that his longevity (ayu) was less and that he would die unless he became a sanyashi. I do not think Adi Sankaracharya wanted to fool his mother. Moreove of the sankara mathas the Sankaracharyas of the Govardhana Math were grihashthis in their purvashrama. 5) You never told that your book on Suryasiddhanta was on the Internet website but you pretended to get annoyed with me and you said that you are going to delete that from your website so that I don't get to see it. Please do not play such dirty tricks. If you want to delete it you can very well do it as it is your prerogative. Now I am convinced that a book coming from a person of such attitude may not be worth reading. 6) I agree that in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. I had, at one time, a lot of correspondence with Chandrahariji and we respected each other even though we did not agree in several things. All other people including Sreenadhji in the AIA group were very polite towards you. They never used a single strong word against you. In fact I also supported you in the beginning. But your much- vaunted scholarship remained only in your assertions and claims. In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you and you threatened that you will quit that group and to keep your word you had to quit. Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you and I do not think that you were ousted from the group but yourself made your position very precarious there and you left ignominiously. -SKB --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 9:37 PM Bhaskar Jee, You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay jee, Ha Ha. That was a good one. See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. regards/Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee, > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > " > > praNaam sir, > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > that already and u dont need any confirmation > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > the last time(about fonts and vb > errors). > > and its accurate till prana > dashas. > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > normally. > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > another time > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > -VJ > ============ = ============ == > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > prove that you know " something " ? > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > glass pieces in his kitty. > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > but just rattling in the air. > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > set up of mind. > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > I have yet to see > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > softwares in future. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > Christians do. > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > authors. > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > your theories upon. If You have some light > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > astrology , single handedly. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > ....> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > wrote: > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > sitting in > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > observation, or > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > enough > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > who had > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > developed > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > can > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > actual > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > money . > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > 2,50000 > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > the > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > one > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > qualms > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > you say: > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > paintings of > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > of > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > paintings > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > ancient > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > best wishes > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > Astrology > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > read > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > may > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > Vedas > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > But > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > of > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > Hence, > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > meaningless, > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > discussed > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > forwarded. > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > therefore > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > was > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > was said > > > > to > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > 2nd > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > lived > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > 3000 BC, > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > that > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > for > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > that the > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > in > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > for > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > to > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > arrived > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > for > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > derivatives > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > is > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > That > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > which > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > all > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > and > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > being > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > was > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > that > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > ideas, > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > it. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > houses > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > Sumer and > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > and > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > common > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > 7th > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > state > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > cause : > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > (8th > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > Death, > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > and > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > result ; > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > the > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > glory, > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > Power. > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > : > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > its > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > design > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > shown > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > Nishkaama > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > the > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > death > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > and > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > in > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > remains > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > a > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > state > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > ritus. > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > from > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > Vedic. > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > experts of > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > those of > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > there was > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > proof > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > with > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > precise if > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > many > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > which > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > which show > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > the > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > on > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > mammoth > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > have > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > India, > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > don't you > > > > think? > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > evidence > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > would > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > thanks > > > > > M > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > religion to a > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > contain > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > roots, > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > is an > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > ancient > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > - > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > Babylonians > > > > culturally. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > delivering > > > > readings? > > > > > - > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > those who > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > doing > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Vinayji, 1) You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. 2) You said that Suniljee wants you to demonstrate your computing power like a madaari. Far from it I wanted to you to demonstarte you computing abilities like Shakuntal devi did and nobody has any doubt on her computing ability. Do you want to say Shakuntala Devi is a madaari(ni)? Why do you interpret things in the wrong way more usually than otherwuse? Or is it that you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic 3) As regards Tantra you misinformed the AIA group by saying that Tantra is un-Vedic and I simply corrected it and told you that the Kularnava tantra traces its origin to Veda. Then you said that in Tantra one has to get drunk heavily. I only corrected it by saying that Tantra recommends that one should take the substitutes. Then there is also the alternative procedure of Alipaan, which a symbolical drinking of a drop. However in case of one, who is used to drinking wines, only two-Tolas (ie. one ounce of wine, which is less than the safe limit of wine permitted by the World Health Organisation) was allowed. Now please do not pose the question as to whether the Tantric masters consulted WHO before fixing the two Tolas. You have already made enough of cheap fun of the Two Tolas due to your ignorance of the Tantric norms. 4) Vinayji please speak out only what is true. Which foul word did I use? Please have the guts to tell the forum. Please leave your dirty tactics of false accusations. Also your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. From the biographical details that we have of Adi Sankaracharya he told his mother that his longevity (ayu) was less and that he would die unless he became a sanyashi. I do not think Adi Sankaracharya wanted to fool his mother. Moreove of the sankara mathas the Sankaracharyas of the Govardhana Math were grihashthis in their purvashrama. 5) You never told that your book on Suryasiddhanta was on the Internet website but you pretended to get annoyed with me and you said that you are going to delete that from your website so that I don't get to see it. Please do not play such dirty tricks. If you want to delete it you can very well do it as it is your prerogative. Now I am convinced that a book coming from a person of such attitude may not be worth reading. 6) I agree that in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. I had, at one time, a lot of correspondence with Chandrahariji and we respected each other even though we did not agree in several things. All other people including Sreenadhji in the AIA group were very polite towards you. They never used a single strong word against you. In fact I also supported you in the beginning. But your much- vaunted scholarship remained only in your assertions and claims. In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you and you threatened that you will quit that group and to keep your word you had to quit. Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you and I do not think that you were ousted from the group but yourself made your position very precarious there and you left ignominiously. -SKB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 I wasted years in archaeology, and then left it because I could not carry all the excavations myself. ASI (Archaeological Survey of India) is interested in sites only when it fits into the British / Nehruvian / Leftist model of history. I have evidences of deliberate misreporting by ASI about excavations. For instance, Balirajgarh in Bihar was excavated and ASI reported that it existed between 150 BC and 600 AD. But after repeated question in parliament by a senior MP of that district, it was revealed that the bottom layer yielded NBPW which belonged to the period 600-150 BC, and furthe excavation was stopped due to groundwater. ASI did not want to go beyond Buddhist period, otherwise it would have carried out further excavations in dry season with the help of pumping sets. Instead, it issued false report which suggested nothing existed there before 150 BC. An adjacent site is named Asurgarh ( Bali was also an asura) and hundreds of punched marked coins were found there by a district magistrate which ASI is not displaying, and I also found many pre-Mauryan coins at these sites which I gave to university head but not to ASI, because ASI will destroy these evidences. in the same region, Vaishali has yielded PGW pottery which leftists associate with Vedic culture but their textbooks do not report that Vedic region included Vaishali. Kashi has yielded C-14 proofs of iron in a prehistoric layer dating back to ~3000 BC, but no scholar accepts such facts and say earthquake might have caused it. There are ample physical proofs of astrology in ancient period, but mainstream historians deliberately misinterpret the data. Moreover,revelation and not physical observation was the mainstay of Vedic astrology. That is why I asked Margie to test Vedic astrology " astrologically " , not physically. -VJ , astro desk <astro.prashantkumar wrote: > > Dear Marg > > it is strange, but true we cant find much of what u want to know that u have > not found any physical evidence of any archia material in India > > WHY > > WE INDIANS HAVE FALLEN PREY TO the " Stockolm syndrome " > > I don't think I need to explain this term to u if u r from the west > > Indian history is conviently distored by the invaders like Biriths who used > it as a Admin tool > > they divided India in to 2 parts NORTH SOUTH > > THEN NORTH AS HIMDU-MUSLIM > > SOUTH ON ARYAN, DRAVIDIAN and all over distorted the caste picture > > India after becoming Indipendedt under its socialist leanings and love ro > all the comunists gave this LEFT brains the job of education culture for > them anyting invaders did was superior to Hindu till this date > > the deride, denigrate all Hindu/vedic concepts and project all the crimes > of the invaders and their tribes as sacred things and conveniently want us > to ignore them for unity sake for who just otes of their dedicated poor, > sick mentally backward ppl only > > they thrive in poverty, sick pouplation and Minorites who r bron as more of > victis of invaders sadly cherish their forced religion state again stockholm > syndrome > > INDIAN GOVTS NEVER SPENT A PIE ON ARCHIOLOGY, DIGGING OUR PAST OR TRYING TO > UNEARTHOUR PAST > > NAX some in TN do it rest of India r not keeon on knowing their past, they r > taught by Nehruvian model to hate, feel ashamed of being a Hindu, do > everything to keep them backard and called be obscurunists > > what happened in Manglore pubs is bad from both sides > > one the clb had no permission to run as night club, max a restarunt > > but the attendece was for alchol, daces again unlwaful > > the crime of the Hindu brigade > > did in throwing the parymen is in bad taste but this was the job of the cops > who never did it so instead of treeating it as a law and order problem our > media which is secular or left parties driven tarnishes the hindus not the > criminals who ran the illigal bar > > had they treated the bar and the saffron brigade in same light we can > understand they r ok with one crime not the other > > but if this was a american club may be left partiees wud have risen against > it > > COMING BACK TO UR MAIN POINT > > WE IN INDIA HAVE TO LEARN TO RESPECT AND CHERISH OUR HERITAGE AND WELL > MEANING FINANCIALL WELL OF INDIASN MUST SPEND RESOURCES EVEN AID FROM WEST > dig our past and show the world what we r than get such taunts from the west > > as our govt wont lift a finger on Hindu concerns > > Prashant > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching > > by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are > > constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there > > are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful > > calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have > > star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible > > circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe > > over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the > > phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is > > odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of > > very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically > > located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate > > knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > <%40> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only > > relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does > > nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. > > Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions > > try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ________________________________ > > Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> > > <%40> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need > > same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the > > same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 TO ALL : Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is in a fighting mood, and is trying to forge an alliance with Mr Bhaskar against me (that is why he posted here, guessing I was fighting with Mr Bhaskar). The fact is I have no time for useless bullfights. I do not want to waste my and others' time by starting a useless feud in forums. I believe his attitude cannot be changed, but I hope following passages recently sent by me to another user may be useful in making some important points clear : <<<< " There are two branches of Vedic Astrology. One is Saurpaksha, other is Drikpaksha. These terms are unfamiliar to internet users, because traditional texts hitherto untranslated into any other language dealt with these concepts, and Ketaki System is a sole exception in modern age which popularized these terms. Drikpaksha means the material or physical world perceived by means of sense organs. In Kantian terminology, it is phenomenal world. Modern astronomy deals with this world. The other trend, Saurpaksha, dealt with the other higher world of deities who cannot be seen directly by our sense organs. In Kantian words, it is noumenal world. Ancient Vedic astrology was totally based upon this noumenal world and had no connection with phenomenal world. Perhaps it was due to God's desire that materialists should be kept away from this higher world that both worlds use similar names for planets. But Saurpakshiya planets have nothing in common with Drikpakshiya planets, excepting names. The latter is a physical dead thing which we see in the sky. The former is a god whose position is different and cannot be seen directly. Distance of Drikpakshiya Sun is 149.6 million Kms from us, while Saurpakshiya Sun is only 5.5 million Kms from us : a difference of over 27 times ! Drikpakshiya world rotates once every 42000 years with respect to the fixed Saurpakshiya world. In early 2000 AD, both worlds coincided, as far as mean positions of planets are concerned... Ayanamsha is purely a Saurpakshiya concept. Drikpakshiya world of modern astronomy does not show such a phenomenon. Modern astronomy has no equivalent for this term, and even English speakers use the Sanskrit word " ayanamsha " . 19th century authors like Colebrooke started imposing modern astronomy upon ancient Vedic concepts, which resulted into present day misconceptions about ayanamsha. Lahiri followed this modern method and identified the star Spica with Vedic (Saurpakshiya) star Chitra because according to this logic ayanamsha was found to be zero in 285 AD (you say 280 AD approximately). It was therefore concluded that both sidereal and tropical zodiacs separated around 285 AD. But the inherent weakness in this method is that Chitra is not the starting point of any zodiac, that point is beginning of Aries (FPA). There is no visible star at sidereal or tropical FPA. This modern method is based upon a fallacious assumption that Drikpakshiya Tropical means Saurpakshiya Saayana. The concept of precession was known in ancient India with a high degree of precision ( cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha+vs+Precession ), but was never used in astrology. It had no connection with ayanamsha. The latter was related to Trepidation or libration of the equinoxes. In spite of knowledge of precession in the time of Hipparchus, Trepidation was used by almost all astrologers in Greece, Egypt, Arabia, India, etc, down to the time of Copernicus. It was only afrer renaissance that Trepidation was rejected by physical scientists and followers of material science imposed the concept of precession upon ayanamsha. Trepidation is a Saurpakshiya concept and is not found to exist in the Drikpakshiya (material world). Similarly, precession is a non-Saurpakshiya concept of physical world. We cannot observe the Saurpakshiya world directly. Then, what is the proof of its existence ? Material astronomy can neither prove nor disprove the existence or non-existence of non-material entities. Predictive astrology is the only proof. " >>>> --- Mr Sunil Bhattacharya's first charge on me is : >>>> " You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. " <<<<<< Where did Vyaasa Jee say he was implying the " physical planet " ? Vyaasa jee has mentioned countless of times that grahas are deities, and everyone knows deities can be perceived only when they want to make themselves visible. How physical astronomy can prove that a Shani in Vishakha can " torment " Rohini ? His second charge is that he wanted me to demonstrate my computational ability. I had clearly said that I am not Ramanujam (or Shakuntala Devi), and my computational abilities are due to mastery of a lot of mathematical tables since early boyhood, like logarithmic and antilog tables. I had mentioned the name and departments of a university where my computational ability was checked. Instead of asking those professors, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya says " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic. " Why should I start touring the globe like Shakuntala Devi, stopping my research works ? Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is certainly not sincere and is after character assassination. If he really doubts me, he can come to my town ( I will bear his expenses in my town, but not travelling expenses) and test me. I believe he will decline this offer and find new excuses to malign me. His next point is >>>> " your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. " <<<< He does not know the difference between a Brahmachaari and a Baala-brahmachaari, although he uses both terms. Ancient sages were married and were Brahmachaaris at the same time. But married Brahmachaaris are not Baala-Brahmachaaris. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya quotes Mahabharata every now and then , but only in a distorted manner in order to prove his wrong points. In Mahabharata, when Ashwatthaamaa said he does not know how to retract a Brahmaastra, Lord Krishna said Ashwatthaamaa could not do so because he was not a Brahmachaari, while Arjuna could retract it because Arjuna was a Brahmachaari. Ashwatthaamaa was a celibate brahmin of a high lineage, and there is no episode which can prove his fall from Brahmachaarya, excepting a brief reference to presence of dancers in his tent at Kuruksetra during war. Arjuna was known to have more than one wife and more than one offspring, but rejected Urvashi's offer because in Urvashi's offer there Kaama was merely a means of carnal pleasure which Arjuna had to reject, while Kaama according to Dharma, ie intended for saving the lineage, is Lord Himself as told in Gita. Arjuna was Gudaakesha, one who has attained Yoganidra by conquering normal sleep. He was a real tapasvi and a real sadhu. Hence he was a Brahmachaari. If Lord Krishna and Vyaasa Jee say so, why should I accept Mr Sunils' wrong definition of brahmacharya as a mere state of remaining unmarried. A single instance of seminal ejaculation destroys brahmacharya. That is why bad company and taamasika foods and drinks are forbidden for saatvika persons. Worls Health Organization was not founded for upholding brahmacharya and is free to eulogize a few tolas of wine. But a single drop of wine is worse than cobra venom for a real brahmachaari. Many doctors prescribe wine , meat, fish, eggs, but forget that Homo Sapiens was evolved out of a non-carnivorous family and unnatural food habits are giving rise to a lot of new diseases. I did not join forums to propagate brahmacharya, and Sunil ji is free to follow his ideas, but he should not distort ancient terms to suit his personal habits. His next point is that I was falsely complaining of being abused by him. He never used obscene words for me or for anyone. But as far as I know, I am the only person who became a target of his false and often abusive (not obscene) remarks. Even his present mail contains words like " dirty tactics " , " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic " , " bullshit " , 'unprovable tall claims " , " left ignominiously " which cannot be said to be conducive for a healthy discussion. His most provocative and abusive words are his deliberately false statements : (1)that Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only (actually, Chandrahariji stopped correspondence when he leant that my works were recognized by some leading scientific institutions, and then Mr Sreenadh and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya were hired by Chandrahariji to spread rumours that I never delivered anything at Indian Institute of Science ( cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/NASA%27s_Report%3B_%26_my_Paper_accepted_by\ _CAOS%2C_IISc ). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya even poked fun at my scientific paper which was accepted by CAOS, IISc. I asked these fellows to contact CAOS, IISc whether I was a liar or not, but they had an agenda to malign me. He falsely says " in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. " These " strong words " were fit for a libel suit , and Chandrahariji used such words even in his last mails concerning me, not only in his initial mail. I am pained to note that in spite of my tolerance of Chandrahariji's abuses, he and a handful of his followers never thought that I am a tolerant person, and intesified their offensive against me, denying any chance of free and fair discussion. When I recognized that Chandrahariji is a dishonest person and wants to literally crush me just because I know the practical methods of Suryasiddhantic computations which he wrongly interprets and falsely projects himself as an expert of Suryasiddhanta, I started refuting him, and challenged him for an intellectual debate, after which he left the field and his followers started abusing me, some of them even sent me obscene messages. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you. " Chandrahariji abused me till his last mail, and in every reply I requested him to calm down and discuss, but in vain. Mr Sreenadh and Mr Bhaskar once tried to request Chandrahariji to discuss the matter calmly instead of abusing. But they failed. When I asked Chandrahariji for a shaastraartha, his followers were mad with anger and started abusing me. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you. " Sreenadhji was really good in the beginning, but when Chandrahariji brought the issue to a point of no return, I started challenging his ideas and invited him for a shaastraartha, Chandrahariji went into hibernation and Sreenadhji launched a venomous attack upon me, in AIA, in private emails, and in Allahabad Conference where I was instrumental in allowing him a chance to speak ( there too he abused and left the spot, without hearing the answers). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya deliberately forgets these facts and is misreporting here just to create a hostile environment against me. Had he behaved like a gentleman and refrained from impolite words, why I should have denied him the access to my Hindi book, whose English summary still can be read at three websites, one is Australian, another is Wikipedia (history tab), and the third is mine . I removed my book from the jyotirvidya site because the revised version could not be uploaded there due to size and had to be uploaded on another site. A lot of people in the world today are under a hallucination that material world is everything and ancient sages had no knowledge which modern science has not discovered. Their refusal to discuss and test springs from this materialist belief. Among these materialists, only those may be able to fairly judge the truth about astrology who keep away from wine, women and selling of astrology. I have not set these rules, these are ancient guidelines which moderners want to deny. I was glad when Mr Sunil Bhattacharya said that he wants to get rid of me. Why he has again decidedd to waste my and others' time must have some cause. That cause is a desire to crush the traditional astrology as based on Suryasiddhanta. Although all internet users are users of softwares based on physical astronomy, the wish to kill Suryasiddhantic astrology is a wishful thinking, majority of Indians stil use and will continue to use panchangas and kundalis based on crude or refined tables originally derived from Suryasiddhanta. The refusal to test the astrological validity of Suryasiddhanta is wrongly projected as " scientific " spirit by these enthusiasts. Scientific method does not reject a thing before testing it. I am abstaining from using bad words about Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. I left AIA because my time was wasted over refutals of false charges and abuses by these persons, who are now after me in other forums. If I am a bad guy, why he does not forget me ? Has he no noble task at hand ? I have no cure for prejudice. Some people suppose anyone finding something useful in ancient texts must be an obscurantist and must be silenced by force, or by means of abuses. -VJ ================ ================ , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Vinayji, > > 1) > You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. > > 2) > You said that Suniljee wants you to demonstrate your computing power like a madaari. Far from it I wanted to you to demonstarte you computing abilities like Shakuntal devi did and nobody has any doubt on her computing ability. Do you want to say Shakuntala Devi is a madaari(ni)? Why do you interpret things in the wrong way more usually than otherwuse? Or is it that you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic > > 3) As regards Tantra you misinformed the AIA group by saying that Tantra is un-Vedic and I simply corrected it and told you that the Kularnava tantra traces its origin to Veda. Then you said that in Tantra one has to get drunk heavily. I only corrected it by saying that Tantra recommends that one should take the substitutes. Then there is also the alternative procedure of Alipaan, which a symbolical drinking of a drop. However in case of one, who is used to drinking wines, only two-Tolas (ie. one ounce of wine, which is less than the safe limit of wine permitted by the World Health Organisation) was allowed. Now please do not pose the question as to whether the Tantric masters consulted WHO before fixing the two Tolas. You have already made enough of cheap fun of the Two Tolas due to your ignorance of the Tantric norms. > > 4) Vinayji please speak out only what is true. Which foul word did I use? Please have the guts to tell the forum. Please leave your dirty tactics of false accusations. Also your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. From the biographical details that we have of Adi Sankaracharya he told his mother that his longevity (ayu) was less and that he would die unless he became a sanyashi. I do not think Adi Sankaracharya wanted to fool his mother. Moreove of the sankara mathas the Sankaracharyas of the Govardhana Math were grihashthis in their purvashrama. > > 5) You never told that your book on Suryasiddhanta was on the Internet website but you pretended to get annoyed with me and you said that you are going to delete that from your website so that I don't get to see it. Please do not play such dirty tricks. If you want to delete it you can very well do it as it is your prerogative. Now I am convinced that a book coming from a person of such attitude may not be worth reading. > > 6) > I agree that in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. I had, at one time, a lot of correspondence with Chandrahariji and we respected each other even though we did not agree in several things. All other people including Sreenadhji in the AIA group were very polite towards you. They never used a single strong word against you. In fact I also supported you in the beginning. But your much- vaunted scholarship remained only in your assertions and claims. In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you and you threatened that you will quit that group and to keep your word you had to quit. Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you and I do not think that you were ousted from the group but yourself made your position very precarious there and you left ignominiously. > > -SKB > > > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 9:37 PM Bhaskar Jee, > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear Vinay jee, > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > " > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > errors). > > > > and its accurate till prana > > dashas. > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > normally. > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > another time > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > -VJ > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > set up of mind. > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > I have yet to see > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > Christians do. > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > authors. > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > sitting in > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > observation, or > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > enough > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > who had > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > developed > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > can > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > actual > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > money . > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > 2,50000 > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > the > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > one > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > qualms > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > paintings of > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > of > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > paintings > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > ancient > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > Astrology > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > read > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > may > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > Vedas > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > But > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > of > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > Hence, > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > meaningless, > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > discussed > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > forwarded. > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > therefore > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > was > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > was said > > > > > to > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > 2nd > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > lived > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > 3000 BC, > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > that > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > for > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > that the > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > in > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > for > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > to > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > arrived > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > for > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > derivatives > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > is > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > That > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > which > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > all > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > and > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > being > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > was > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > that > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > ideas, > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > houses > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > Sumer and > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > and > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > common > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > 7th > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > state > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > cause : > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > (8th > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > Death, > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > and > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > result ; > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > the > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > glory, > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > : > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > its > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > design > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > shown > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > Nishkaama > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > the > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > death > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > and > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > in > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > remains > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > a > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > state > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > ritus. > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > from > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > Vedic. > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > experts of > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > those of > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > there was > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > proof > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > with > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > precise if > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > many > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > which > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > which show > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > the > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > on > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > mammoth > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > have > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > India, > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > don't you > > > > > think? > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > evidence > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > would > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > religion to a > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > contain > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > roots, > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > is an > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > ancient > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > - > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > Babylonians > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > delivering > > > > > readings? > > > > > > - > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > those who > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > doing > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Dear Mr. Vinay Jha and all concerned, Practically thousands of members on these forums know me as a man of Justice, and I have better work to do than to form an alliance with Mr. Sunil Bhattacharya ji whom I dont even know except as a member of these Groups. I fight my battles alone and not into any type of activities as suggested by Mr. jha. I may have a problem with one particular facet of any member and difference of opinuions or views there, but may appreciate the other facets of the same individual. But trying to oppose any individual on the whole is not, and was never in my scheme of things or in my persona. I am probably one of the most busiest persons around and stay on these Groups just because I am interested in astro talks, and not because I have spare time. I request Mr.Vinay Jha to withdraw his allegation on me, otherwise I am not going to communicate with him in future, and will also withdraw any form of support which I have been lending him on almost all groups when the tide turns against him, and when I find him incapable of providing any evidences to his claims of knowledge which is the only agenda forthcoming from him. I may not have any academic degrees like most members here, but even a Cobbler and a Taxi driver is busy and so am I. And even without any academic degrees I am able to predict better with the Lords Grace , than many who shoot off their mouths about their achievements and glories of hey day, which i dont possess. Ultimately the proof of the pudding lies in eating it. They are not into serving anything worthwhile except shallow claims and talks unfortunately , which is now giving me a headache. I do not unerstand why is this thread being persistently elongated and pulled without any sensical chords or music being presented to the readers. I request to please stop this thread and began something new which will be of interest to all members including Marg, Myself, Sunilji, RR ji,and the other foreign members, so that we can discuss on the nuances of astrology without any Ego problems or upkeeping of any pride or show of being better than the other.Let us keep away from any show being better and superior on any counts individual, experience wise, territorial, religious, geographical, historical or any other ground wise. best wishes and regards to all members, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > TO ALL : > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is in a fighting mood, and is trying to forge an alliance with Mr Bhaskar against me (that is why he posted here, guessing I was fighting with Mr Bhaskar). The fact is I have no time for useless bullfights. I do not want to waste my and others' time by starting a useless feud in forums. I believe his attitude cannot be changed, but I hope following passages recently sent by me to another user may be useful in making some important points clear : > > <<<< " There are two branches of Vedic Astrology. One is Saurpaksha, other is Drikpaksha. These terms are unfamiliar to internet users, because traditional texts hitherto untranslated into any other language dealt with these concepts, and Ketaki System is a sole exception in modern age which popularized these terms. Drikpaksha means the material or physical world perceived by means of sense organs. In Kantian terminology, it is phenomenal world. Modern astronomy deals with this world. The other trend, Saurpaksha, dealt with the other higher world of deities who cannot be seen directly by our sense organs. In Kantian words, it is noumenal world. Ancient Vedic astrology was totally based upon this noumenal world and had no connection with phenomenal world. Perhaps it was due to God's desire that materialists should be kept away from this higher world that both worlds use similar names for planets. But Saurpakshiya planets have nothing in common with Drikpakshiya planets, excepting names. The latter is a physical dead thing which we see in the sky. The former is a god whose position is different and cannot be seen directly. Distance of Drikpakshiya Sun is 149.6 million Kms from us, while Saurpakshiya Sun is only 5.5 million Kms from us : a difference of over 27 times ! Drikpakshiya world rotates once every 42000 years with respect to the fixed Saurpakshiya world. In early 2000 AD, both worlds coincided, as far as mean positions of planets are concerned... > > Ayanamsha is purely a Saurpakshiya concept. Drikpakshiya world of modern astronomy does not show such a phenomenon. Modern astronomy has no equivalent for this term, and even English speakers use the Sanskrit word " ayanamsha " . 19th century authors like Colebrooke started imposing modern astronomy upon ancient Vedic concepts, which resulted into present day misconceptions about ayanamsha. Lahiri followed this modern method and identified the star Spica with Vedic (Saurpakshiya) star Chitra because according to this logic ayanamsha was found to be zero in 285 AD (you say 280 AD approximately). It was therefore concluded that both sidereal and tropical zodiacs separated around 285 AD. But the inherent weakness in this method is that Chitra is not the starting point of any zodiac, that point is beginning of Aries (FPA). There is no visible star at sidereal or tropical FPA. This modern method is based upon a fallacious assumption that Drikpakshiya Tropical means Saurpakshiya Saayana. > > The concept of precession was known in ancient India with a high degree of precision ( cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha+vs+Precession ), but was never used in astrology. It had no connection with ayanamsha. The latter was related to Trepidation or libration of the equinoxes. In spite of knowledge of precession in the time of Hipparchus, Trepidation was used by almost all astrologers in Greece, Egypt, Arabia, India, etc, down to the time of Copernicus. It was only afrer renaissance that Trepidation was rejected by physical scientists and followers of material science imposed the concept of precession upon ayanamsha. Trepidation is a Saurpakshiya concept and is not found to exist in the Drikpakshiya (material world). Similarly, precession is a non-Saurpakshiya concept of physical world. > > We cannot observe the Saurpakshiya world directly. Then, what is the proof of its existence ? Material astronomy can neither prove nor disprove the existence or non-existence of non-material entities. Predictive astrology is the only proof. " >>>> > --- > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya's first charge on me is : >>>> " You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. " <<<<<< > > Where did Vyaasa Jee say he was implying the " physical planet " ? Vyaasa jee has mentioned countless of times that grahas are deities, and everyone knows deities can be perceived only when they want to make themselves visible. How physical astronomy can prove that a Shani in Vishakha can " torment " Rohini ? > > His second charge is that he wanted me to demonstrate my computational ability. I had clearly said that I am not Ramanujam (or Shakuntala Devi), and my computational abilities are due to mastery of a lot of mathematical tables since early boyhood, like logarithmic and antilog tables. I had mentioned the name and departments of a university where my computational ability was checked. Instead of asking those professors, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya says " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic. " Why should I start touring the globe like Shakuntala Devi, stopping my research works ? Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is certainly not sincere and is after character assassination. If he really doubts me, he can come to my town ( I will bear his expenses in my town, but not travelling expenses) and test me. I believe he will decline this offer and find new excuses to malign me. > > His next point is >>>> " your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. " <<<< > > He does not know the difference between a Brahmachaari and a Baala-brahmachaari, although he uses both terms. Ancient sages were married and were Brahmachaaris at the same time. But married Brahmachaaris are not Baala-Brahmachaaris. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya quotes Mahabharata every now and then , but only in a distorted manner in order to prove his wrong points. In Mahabharata, when Ashwatthaamaa said he does not know how to retract a Brahmaastra, Lord Krishna said Ashwatthaamaa could not do so because he was not a Brahmachaari, while Arjuna could retract it because Arjuna was a Brahmachaari. Ashwatthaamaa was a celibate brahmin of a high lineage, and there is no episode which can prove his fall from Brahmachaarya, excepting a brief reference to presence of dancers in his tent at Kuruksetra during war. Arjuna was known to have more than one wife and more than one offspring, but rejected Urvashi's offer because in Urvashi's offer there Kaama was merely a means of carnal pleasure which Arjuna had to reject, while Kaama according to Dharma, ie intended for saving the lineage, is Lord Himself as told in Gita. Arjuna was Gudaakesha, one who has attained Yoganidra by conquering normal sleep. He was a real tapasvi and a real sadhu. Hence he was a Brahmachaari. If Lord Krishna and Vyaasa Jee say so, why should I accept Mr Sunils' wrong definition of brahmacharya as a mere state of remaining unmarried. A single instance of seminal ejaculation destroys brahmacharya. That is why bad company and taamasika foods and drinks are forbidden for saatvika persons. Worls Health Organization was not founded for upholding brahmacharya and is free to eulogize a few tolas of wine. But a single drop of wine is worse than cobra venom for a real brahmachaari. Many doctors prescribe wine , meat, fish, eggs, but forget that Homo Sapiens was evolved out of a non-carnivorous family and unnatural food habits are giving rise to a lot of new diseases. I did not join forums to propagate brahmacharya, and Sunil ji is free to follow his ideas, but he should not distort ancient terms to suit his personal habits. > > His next point is that I was falsely complaining of being abused by him. He never used obscene words for me or for anyone. But as far as I know, I am the only person who became a target of his false and often abusive (not obscene) remarks. Even his present mail contains words like " dirty tactics " , " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic " , " bullshit " , 'unprovable tall claims " , " left ignominiously " which cannot be said to be conducive for a healthy discussion. His most provocative and abusive words are his deliberately false statements : (1)that Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only (actually, Chandrahariji stopped correspondence when he leant that my works were recognized by some leading scientific institutions, and then Mr Sreenadh and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya were hired by Chandrahariji to spread rumours that I never delivered anything at Indian Institute of Science ( cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/NASA%27s_Report%3B_%26_my_Paper_accepted_by\ _CAOS%2C_IISc ). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya even poked fun at my scientific paper which was accepted by CAOS, IISc. I asked these fellows to contact CAOS, IISc whether I was a liar or not, but they had an agenda to malign me. He falsely says " in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. " These " strong words " were fit for a libel suit , and Chandrahariji used such words even in his last mails concerning me, not only in his initial mail. I am pained to note that in spite of my tolerance of Chandrahariji's abuses, he and a handful of his followers never thought that I am a tolerant person, and intesified their offensive against me, denying any chance of free and fair discussion. When I recognized that Chandrahariji is a dishonest person and wants to literally crush me just because I know the practical methods of Suryasiddhantic computations which he wrongly interprets and falsely projects himself as an expert of Suryasiddhanta, I started refuting him, and challenged him for an intellectual debate, after which he left the field and his followers started abusing me, some of them even sent me obscene messages. > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you. " Chandrahariji abused me till his last mail, and in every reply I requested him to calm down and discuss, but in vain. Mr Sreenadh and Mr Bhaskar once tried to request Chandrahariji to discuss the matter calmly instead of abusing. But they failed. When I asked Chandrahariji for a shaastraartha, his followers were mad with anger and started abusing me. > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you. " Sreenadhji was really good in the beginning, but when Chandrahariji brought the issue to a point of no return, I started challenging his ideas and invited him for a shaastraartha, Chandrahariji went into hibernation and Sreenadhji launched a venomous attack upon me, in AIA, in private emails, and in Allahabad Conference where I was instrumental in allowing him a chance to speak ( there too he abused and left the spot, without hearing the answers). > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya deliberately forgets these facts and is misreporting here just to create a hostile environment against me. Had he behaved like a gentleman and refrained from impolite words, why I should have denied him the access to my Hindi book, whose English summary still can be read at three websites, one is Australian, another is Wikipedia (history tab), and the third is mine . I removed my book from the jyotirvidya site because the revised version could not be uploaded there due to size and had to be uploaded on another site. > > A lot of people in the world today are under a hallucination that material world is everything and ancient sages had no knowledge which modern science has not discovered. Their refusal to discuss and test springs from this materialist belief. Among these materialists, only those may be able to fairly judge the truth about astrology who keep away from wine, women and selling of astrology. I have not set these rules, these are ancient guidelines which moderners want to deny. > > I was glad when Mr Sunil Bhattacharya said that he wants to get rid of me. Why he has again decidedd to waste my and others' time must have some cause. That cause is a desire to crush the traditional astrology as based on Suryasiddhanta. Although all internet users are users of softwares based on physical astronomy, the wish to kill Suryasiddhantic astrology is a wishful thinking, majority of Indians stil use and will continue to use panchangas and kundalis based on crude or refined tables originally derived from Suryasiddhanta. The refusal to test the astrological validity of Suryasiddhanta is wrongly projected as " scientific " spirit by these enthusiasts. Scientific method does not reject a thing before testing it. > > I am abstaining from using bad words about Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. I left AIA because my time was wasted over refutals of false charges and abuses by these persons, who are now after me in other forums. If I am a bad guy, why he does not forget me ? Has he no noble task at hand ? I have no cure for prejudice. Some people suppose anyone finding something useful in ancient texts must be an obscurantist and must be silenced by force, or by means of abuses. > > -VJ > ================ ================ > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Vinayji, > > > > 1) > > You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. > > > > 2) > > You said that Suniljee wants you to demonstrate your computing power like a madaari. Far from it I wanted to you to demonstarte you computing abilities like Shakuntal devi did and nobody has any doubt on her computing ability. Do you want to say Shakuntala Devi is a madaari(ni)? Why do you interpret things in the wrong way more usually than otherwuse? Or is it that you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic > > > > 3) As regards Tantra you misinformed the AIA group by saying that Tantra is un-Vedic and I simply corrected it and told you that the Kularnava tantra traces its origin to Veda. Then you said that in Tantra one has to get drunk heavily. I only corrected it by saying that Tantra recommends that one should take the substitutes. Then there is also the alternative procedure of Alipaan, which a symbolical drinking of a drop. However in case of one, who is used to drinking wines, only two-Tolas (ie. one ounce of wine, which is less than the safe limit of wine permitted by the World Health Organisation) was allowed. Now please do not pose the question as to whether the Tantric masters consulted WHO before fixing the two Tolas. You have already made enough of cheap fun of the Two Tolas due to your ignorance of the Tantric norms. > > > > 4) Vinayji please speak out only what is true. Which foul word did I use? Please have the guts to tell the forum. Please leave your dirty tactics of false accusations. Also your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. From the biographical details that we have of Adi Sankaracharya he told his mother that his longevity (ayu) was less and that he would die unless he became a sanyashi. I do not think Adi Sankaracharya wanted to fool his mother. Moreove of the sankara mathas the Sankaracharyas of the Govardhana Math were grihashthis in their purvashrama. > > > > 5) You never told that your book on Suryasiddhanta was on the Internet website but you pretended to get annoyed with me and you said that you are going to delete that from your website so that I don't get to see it. Please do not play such dirty tricks. If you want to delete it you can very well do it as it is your prerogative. Now I am convinced that a book coming from a person of such attitude may not be worth reading. > > > > 6) > > I agree that in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. I had, at one time, a lot of correspondence with Chandrahariji and we respected each other even though we did not agree in several things. All other people including Sreenadhji in the AIA group were very polite towards you. They never used a single strong word against you. In fact I also supported you in the beginning. But your much- vaunted scholarship remained only in your assertions and claims. In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you and you threatened that you will quit that group and to keep your word you had to quit. Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you and I do not think that you were ousted from the group but yourself made your position very precarious there and you left ignominiously. > > > > -SKB > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 9:37 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > > > " > > > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > > errors). > > > > > > and its accurate till prana > > > dashas. > > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > > normally. > > > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > > another time > > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > > set up of mind. > > > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > > I have yet to see > > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > > Christians do. > > > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > > authors. > > > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > > sitting in > > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > > observation, or > > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > > enough > > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > > who had > > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > > developed > > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > > can > > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > > actual > > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > > money . > > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > > 2,50000 > > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > > the > > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > > one > > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > > qualms > > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > > paintings of > > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > > of > > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > > paintings > > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > > ancient > > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > > Astrology > > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > > read > > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > > may > > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > > Vedas > > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > > But > > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > > of > > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > > Hence, > > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > > meaningless, > > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > > discussed > > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > > forwarded. > > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > > therefore > > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > > was > > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > > was said > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > > 2nd > > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > > lived > > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > > 3000 BC, > > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > > that > > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > > for > > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > > that the > > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > > in > > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > > for > > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > > to > > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > > arrived > > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > > for > > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > > derivatives > > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > > is > > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > > That > > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > > which > > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > > all > > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > > and > > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > > being > > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > > was > > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > > that > > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > > ideas, > > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > > houses > > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > > Sumer and > > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > > and > > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > > common > > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > > 7th > > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > > state > > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > > cause : > > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > > (8th > > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > > Death, > > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > > and > > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > > result ; > > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > > the > > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > > glory, > > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > > : > > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > > its > > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > > design > > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > > shown > > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > > Nishkaama > > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > > the > > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > > death > > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > > and > > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > > in > > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > > remains > > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > > a > > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > > state > > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > > ritus. > > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > > from > > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > > Vedic. > > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > > experts of > > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > > those of > > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > > there was > > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > > proof > > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > > with > > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > > precise if > > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > > many > > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > > which > > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > > which show > > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > > the > > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > > on > > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > > mammoth > > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > > have > > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > > India, > > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > > don't you > > > > > > think? > > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > > evidence > > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > > would > > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > > religion to a > > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > > contain > > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > > roots, > > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > > is an > > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > > ancient > > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > > Babylonians > > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > > delivering > > > > > > readings? > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > > those who > > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > > doing > > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Bhaskarji has unnecessarily intervened. I had clearly said : " Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is... trying to forge an alliance with Mr Bhaskar against me (that is why he posted here, guessing I was fighting with Mr Bhaskar) " Mr Sunil Bhattacharya (wrongly) " guessed " that I was fighting with Mr Bhaskar, and therefore intervened.I never said that Bhaskarji was also allying with Mr Sunilji. I did not level any charge on Bhaskarji in that message. Bhaskarji may keep away from this thread, I do not want to say anything against him. My previous answer contains some important issues which I request members to read, casting aside partisan spirits, if any. I have not joined forums for bullfighting. A handful of persons are under an oath to drown the issues I raise under false pretexts, abuses, etc. I am posting my previous message again, because Bhaskarji's unncesary intervention has pushed my issues into background : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO ALL : I hope following passages recently sent by me to another user may be useful in making some important points clear : <<<< " There are two branches of Vedic Astrology. One is Saurpaksha, other is Drikpaksha. These terms are unfamiliar to internet users, because traditional texts hitherto untranslated into any other language dealt with these concepts, and Ketaki System is a sole exception in modern age which popularized these terms. Drikpaksha means the material or physical world perceived by means of sense organs. In Kantian terminology, it is phenomenal world. Modern astronomy deals with this world. The other trend, Saurpaksha, dealt with the other higher world of deities who cannot be seen directly by our sense organs. In Kantian words, it is noumenal world. Ancient Vedic astrology was totally based upon this noumenal world and had no connection with phenomenal world. Perhaps it was due to God's desire that materialists should be kept away from this higher world that both worlds use similar names for planets. But Saurpakshiya planets have nothing in common with Drikpakshiya planets, excepting names. The latter is a physical dead thing which we see in the sky. The former is a god whose position is different and cannot be seen directly. Distance of Drikpakshiya Sun is 149.6 million Kms from us, while Saurpakshiya Sun is only 5.5 million Kms from us : a difference of over 27 times ! Drikpakshiya world rotates once every 42000 years with respect to the fixed Saurpakshiya world. In early 2000 AD, both worlds coincided, as far as mean positions of planets are concerned... Ayanamsha is purely a Saurpakshiya concept. Drikpakshiya world of modern astronomy does not show such a phenomenon. Modern astronomy has no equivalent for this term, and even English speakers use the Sanskrit word " ayanamsha " . 19th century authors like Colebrooke started imposing modern astronomy upon ancient Vedic concepts, which resulted into present day misconceptions about ayanamsha. Lahiri followed this modern method and identified the star Spica with Vedic (Saurpakshiya) star Chitra because according to this logic ayanamsha was found to be zero in 285 AD (you say 280 AD approximately) . It was therefore concluded that both sidereal and tropical zodiacs separated around 285 AD. But the inherent weakness in this method is that Chitra is not the starting point of any zodiac, that point is beginning of Aries (FPA). There is no visible star at sidereal or tropical FPA. This modern method is based upon a fallacious assumption that Drikpakshiya Tropical means Saurpakshiya Saayana. The concept of precession was known in ancient India with a high degree of precision ( cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha+ vs+Precession ), but was never used in astrology. It had no connection with ayanamsha. The latter was related to Trepidation or libration of the equinoxes. In spite of knowledge of precession in the time of Hipparchus, Trepidation was used by almost all astrologers in Greece, Egypt, Arabia, India, etc, down to the time of Copernicus. It was only afrer renaissance that Trepidation was rejected by physical scientists and followers of material science imposed the concept of precession upon ayanamsha. Trepidation is a Saurpakshiya concept and is not found to exist in the Drikpakshiya (material world). Similarly, precession is a non-Saurpakshiya concept of physical world. We cannot observe the Saurpakshiya world directly. Then, what is the proof of its existence ? Material astronomy can neither prove nor disprove the existence or non-existence of non-material entities. Predictive astrology is the only proof. " >>>> --- Mr Sunil Bhattacharya' s first charge on me is : >>>> " You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. " <<<< << Where did Vyaasa Jee say he was implying the " physical planet " ? Vyaasa jee has mentioned countless of times that grahas are deities, and everyone knows deities can be perceived only when they want to make themselves visible. How physical astronomy can prove that a Shani in Vishakha can " torment " Rohini ? His second charge is that he wanted me to demonstrate my computational ability. I had clearly said that I am not Ramanujam (or Shakuntala Devi), and my computational abilities are due to mastery of a lot of mathematical tables since early boyhood, like logarithmic and antilog tables. I had mentioned the name and departments of a university where my computational ability was checked. Instead of asking those professors, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya says " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic. " Why should I start touring the globe like Shakuntala Devi, stopping my research works ? Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is certainly not sincere and is after character assassination. If he really doubts me, he can come to my town ( I will bear his expenses in my town, but not travelling expenses) and test me. I believe he will decline this offer and find new excuses to malign me. His next point is >>>> " your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. " <<<< He does not know the difference between a Brahmachaari and a Baala-brahmachaari, although he uses both terms. Ancient sages were married and were Brahmachaaris at the same time. But married Brahmachaaris are not Baala-Brahmachaaris . Mr Sunil Bhattacharya quotes Mahabharata every now and then , but only in a distorted manner in order to prove his wrong points. In Mahabharata, when Ashwatthaamaa said he does not know how to retract a Brahmaastra, Lord Krishna said Ashwatthaamaa could not do so because he was not a Brahmachaari, while Arjuna could retract it because Arjuna was a Brahmachaari. Ashwatthaamaa was a celibate brahmin of a high lineage, and there is no episode which can prove his fall from Brahmachaarya, excepting a brief reference to presence of dancers in his tent at Kuruksetra during war. Arjuna was known to have more than one wife and more than one offspring, but rejected Urvashi's offer because in Urvashi's offer there Kaama was merely a means of carnal pleasure which Arjuna had to reject, while Kaama according to Dharma, ie intended for saving the lineage, is Lord Himself as told in Gita. Arjuna was Gudaakesha, one who has attained Yoganidra by conquering normal sleep. He was a real tapasvi and a real sadhu. Hence he was a Brahmachaari. If Lord Krishna and Vyaasa Jee say so, why should I accept Mr Sunils' wrong definition of brahmacharya as a mere state of remaining unmarried. A single instance of seminal ejaculation destroys brahmacharya. That is why bad company and taamasika foods and drinks are forbidden for saatvika persons. Worls Health Organization was not founded for upholding brahmacharya and is free to eulogize a few tolas of wine. But a single drop of wine is worse than cobra venom for a real brahmachaari. Many doctors prescribe wine , meat, fish, eggs, but forget that Homo Sapiens was evolved out of a non-carnivorous family and unnatural food habits are giving rise to a lot of new diseases. I did not join forums to propagate brahmacharya, and Sunil ji is free to follow his ideas, but he should not distort ancient terms to suit his personal habits. His next point is that I was falsely complaining of being abused by him. He never used obscene words for me or for anyone. But as far as I know, I am the only person who became a target of his false and often abusive (not obscene) remarks. Even his present mail contains words like " dirty tactics " , " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic " , " bullshit " , 'unprovable tall claims " , " left ignominiously " which cannot be said to be conducive for a healthy discussion. His most provocative and abusive words are his deliberately false statements : (1)that Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only (actually, Chandrahariji stopped correspondence when he leant that my works were recognized by some leading scientific institutions, and then Mr Sreenadh and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya were hired by Chandrahariji to spread rumours that I never delivered anything at Indian Institute of Science ( cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ NASA%27s_ Report%3B_ %26_my_Paper_ accepted_ by_CAOS%2C_ IISc ). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya even poked fun at my scientific paper which was accepted by CAOS, IISc. I asked these fellows to contact CAOS, IISc whether I was a liar or not, but they had an agenda to malign me. He falsely says " in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. " These " strong words " were fit for a libel suit , and Chandrahariji used such words even in his last mails concerning me, not only in his initial mail. I am pained to note that in spite of my tolerance of Chandrahariji' s abuses, he and a handful of his followers never thought that I am a tolerant person, and intesified their offensive against me, denying any chance of free and fair discussion. When I recognized that Chandrahariji is a dishonest person and wants to literally crush me just because I know the practical methods of Suryasiddhantic computations which he wrongly interprets and falsely projects himself as an expert of Suryasiddhanta, I started refuting him, and challenged him for an intellectual debate, after which he left the field and his followers started abusing me, some of them even sent me obscene messages. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you. " Chandrahariji abused me till his last mail, and in every reply I requested him to calm down and discuss, but in vain. Mr Sreenadh and Mr Bhaskar once tried to request Chandrahariji to discuss the matter calmly instead of abusing. But they failed. When I asked Chandrahariji for a shaastraartha, his followers were mad with anger and started abusing me. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you. " Sreenadhji was really good in the beginning, but when Chandrahariji brought the issue to a point of no return, I started challenging his ideas and invited him for a shaastraartha, Chandrahariji went into hibernation and Sreenadhji launched a venomous attack upon me, in AIA, in private emails, and in Allahabad Conference where I was instrumental in allowing him a chance to speak ( there too he abused and left the spot, without hearing the answers). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya deliberately forgets these facts and is misreporting here just to create a hostile environment against me. Had he behaved like a gentleman and refrained from impolite words, why I should have denied him the access to my Hindi book, whose English summary still can be read at three websites, one is Australian, another is Wikipedia (history tab), and the third is mine . I removed my book from the jyotirvidya site because the revised version could not be uploaded there due to size and had to be uploaded on another site. A lot of people in the world today are under a hallucination that material world is everything and ancient sages had no knowledge which modern science has not discovered. Their refusal to discuss and test springs from this materialist belief. Among these materialists, only those may be able to fairly judge the truth about astrology who keep away from wine, women and selling of astrology. I have not set these rules, these are ancient guidelines which moderners want to deny. I was glad when Mr Sunil Bhattacharya said that he wants to get rid of me. Why he has again decidedd to waste my and others' time must have some cause. That cause is a desire to crush the traditional astrology as based on Suryasiddhanta. Although all internet users are users of softwares based on physical astronomy, the wish to kill Suryasiddhantic astrology is a wishful thinking, majority of Indians stil use and will continue to use panchangas and kundalis based on crude or refined tables originally derived from Suryasiddhanta. The refusal to test the astrological validity of Suryasiddhanta is wrongly projected as " scientific " spirit by these enthusiasts. Scientific method does not reject a thing before testing it. I am abstaining from using bad words about Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. I left AIA because my time was wasted over refutals of false charges and abuses by these persons, who are now after me in other forums. If I am a bad guy, why he does not forget me ? Has he no noble task at hand ? I have no cure for prejudice. Some people suppose anyone finding something useful in ancient texts must be an obscurantist and must be silenced by force, or by means of abuses. Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is unnecessarily wasting my time. His message was devoid of any debatable content and was full of false and illogical charges. -VJ ============ ==== ============ ==== ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Friday, April 3, 2009 2:34:03 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Mr. Vinay Jha and all concerned, Practically thousands of members on these forums know me as a man of Justice, and I have better work to do than to form an alliance with Mr. Sunil Bhattacharya ji whom I dont even know except as a member of these Groups. I fight my battles alone and not into any type of activities as suggested by Mr. jha. I may have a problem with one particular facet of any member and difference of opinuions or views there, but may appreciate the other facets of the same individual. But trying to oppose any individual on the whole is not, and was never in my scheme of things or in my persona. I am probably one of the most busiest persons around and stay on these Groups just because I am interested in astro talks, and not because I have spare time. I request Mr.Vinay Jha to withdraw his allegation on me, otherwise I am not going to communicate with him in future, and will also withdraw any form of support which I have been lending him on almost all groups when the tide turns against him, and when I find him incapable of providing any evidences to his claims of knowledge which is the only agenda forthcoming from him. I may not have any academic degrees like most members here, but even a Cobbler and a Taxi driver is busy and so am I. And even without any academic degrees I am able to predict better with the Lords Grace , than many who shoot off their mouths about their achievements and glories of hey day, which i dont possess. Ultimately the proof of the pudding lies in eating it. They are not into serving anything worthwhile except shallow claims and talks unfortunately , which is now giving me a headache. I do not unerstand why is this thread being persistently elongated and pulled without any sensical chords or music being presented to the readers. I request to please stop this thread and began something new which will be of interest to all members including Marg, Myself, Sunilji, RR ji,and the other foreign members, so that we can discuss on the nuances of astrology without any Ego problems or upkeeping of any pride or show of being better than the other.Let us keep away from any show being better and superior on any counts individual, experience wise, territorial, religious, geographical, historical or any other ground wise. best wishes and regards to all members, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > TO ALL : > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is in a fighting mood, and is trying to forge an alliance with Mr Bhaskar against me (that is why he posted here, guessing I was fighting with Mr Bhaskar). The fact is I have no time for useless bullfights. I do not want to waste my and others' time by starting a useless feud in forums. I believe his attitude cannot be changed, but I hope following passages recently sent by me to another user may be useful in making some important points clear : > > <<<< " There are two branches of Vedic Astrology. One is Saurpaksha, other is Drikpaksha. These terms are unfamiliar to internet users, because traditional texts hitherto untranslated into any other language dealt with these concepts, and Ketaki System is a sole exception in modern age which popularized these terms. Drikpaksha means the material or physical world perceived by means of sense organs. In Kantian terminology, it is phenomenal world. Modern astronomy deals with this world. The other trend, Saurpaksha, dealt with the other higher world of deities who cannot be seen directly by our sense organs. In Kantian words, it is noumenal world. Ancient Vedic astrology was totally based upon this noumenal world and had no connection with phenomenal world. Perhaps it was due to God's desire that materialists should be kept away from this higher world that both worlds use similar names for planets. But Saurpakshiya planets have nothing in common with Drikpakshiya planets, excepting names. The latter is a physical dead thing which we see in the sky. The former is a god whose position is different and cannot be seen directly. Distance of Drikpakshiya Sun is 149.6 million Kms from us, while Saurpakshiya Sun is only 5.5 million Kms from us : a difference of over 27 times ! Drikpakshiya world rotates once every 42000 years with respect to the fixed Saurpakshiya world. In early 2000 AD, both worlds coincided, as far as mean positions of planets are concerned... > > Ayanamsha is purely a Saurpakshiya concept. Drikpakshiya world of modern astronomy does not show such a phenomenon. Modern astronomy has no equivalent for this term, and even English speakers use the Sanskrit word " ayanamsha " . 19th century authors like Colebrooke started imposing modern astronomy upon ancient Vedic concepts, which resulted into present day misconceptions about ayanamsha. Lahiri followed this modern method and identified the star Spica with Vedic (Saurpakshiya) star Chitra because according to this logic ayanamsha was found to be zero in 285 AD (you say 280 AD approximately) . It was therefore concluded that both sidereal and tropical zodiacs separated around 285 AD. But the inherent weakness in this method is that Chitra is not the starting point of any zodiac, that point is beginning of Aries (FPA). There is no visible star at sidereal or tropical FPA. This modern method is based upon a fallacious assumption that Drikpakshiya Tropical means Saurpakshiya Saayana. > > The concept of precession was known in ancient India with a high degree of precision ( cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha+ vs+Precession ), but was never used in astrology. It had no connection with ayanamsha. The latter was related to Trepidation or libration of the equinoxes. In spite of knowledge of precession in the time of Hipparchus, Trepidation was used by almost all astrologers in Greece, Egypt, Arabia, India, etc, down to the time of Copernicus. It was only afrer renaissance that Trepidation was rejected by physical scientists and followers of material science imposed the concept of precession upon ayanamsha. Trepidation is a Saurpakshiya concept and is not found to exist in the Drikpakshiya (material world). Similarly, precession is a non-Saurpakshiya concept of physical world. > > We cannot observe the Saurpakshiya world directly. Then, what is the proof of its existence ? Material astronomy can neither prove nor disprove the existence or non-existence of non-material entities. Predictive astrology is the only proof. " >>>> > --- > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya' s first charge on me is : >>>> " You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. " <<<< << > > Where did Vyaasa Jee say he was implying the " physical planet " ? Vyaasa jee has mentioned countless of times that grahas are deities, and everyone knows deities can be perceived only when they want to make themselves visible. How physical astronomy can prove that a Shani in Vishakha can " torment " Rohini ? > > His second charge is that he wanted me to demonstrate my computational ability. I had clearly said that I am not Ramanujam (or Shakuntala Devi), and my computational abilities are due to mastery of a lot of mathematical tables since early boyhood, like logarithmic and antilog tables. I had mentioned the name and departments of a university where my computational ability was checked. Instead of asking those professors, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya says " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic. " Why should I start touring the globe like Shakuntala Devi, stopping my research works ? Mr Sunil Bhattacharya is certainly not sincere and is after character assassination. If he really doubts me, he can come to my town ( I will bear his expenses in my town, but not travelling expenses) and test me. I believe he will decline this offer and find new excuses to malign me. > > His next point is >>>> " your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. " <<<< > > He does not know the difference between a Brahmachaari and a Baala-brahmachaari, although he uses both terms. Ancient sages were married and were Brahmachaaris at the same time. But married Brahmachaaris are not Baala-Brahmachaaris . Mr Sunil Bhattacharya quotes Mahabharata every now and then , but only in a distorted manner in order to prove his wrong points. In Mahabharata, when Ashwatthaamaa said he does not know how to retract a Brahmaastra, Lord Krishna said Ashwatthaamaa could not do so because he was not a Brahmachaari, while Arjuna could retract it because Arjuna was a Brahmachaari. Ashwatthaamaa was a celibate brahmin of a high lineage, and there is no episode which can prove his fall from Brahmachaarya, excepting a brief reference to presence of dancers in his tent at Kuruksetra during war. Arjuna was known to have more than one wife and more than one offspring, but rejected Urvashi's offer because in Urvashi's offer there Kaama was merely a means of carnal pleasure which Arjuna had to reject, while Kaama according to Dharma, ie intended for saving the lineage, is Lord Himself as told in Gita. Arjuna was Gudaakesha, one who has attained Yoganidra by conquering normal sleep. He was a real tapasvi and a real sadhu. Hence he was a Brahmachaari. If Lord Krishna and Vyaasa Jee say so, why should I accept Mr Sunils' wrong definition of brahmacharya as a mere state of remaining unmarried. A single instance of seminal ejaculation destroys brahmacharya. That is why bad company and taamasika foods and drinks are forbidden for saatvika persons. Worls Health Organization was not founded for upholding brahmacharya and is free to eulogize a few tolas of wine. But a single drop of wine is worse than cobra venom for a real brahmachaari. Many doctors prescribe wine , meat, fish, eggs, but forget that Homo Sapiens was evolved out of a non-carnivorous family and unnatural food habits are giving rise to a lot of new diseases. I did not join forums to propagate brahmacharya, and Sunil ji is free to follow his ideas, but he should not distort ancient terms to suit his personal habits. > > His next point is that I was falsely complaining of being abused by him. He never used obscene words for me or for anyone. But as far as I know, I am the only person who became a target of his false and often abusive (not obscene) remarks. Even his present mail contains words like " dirty tactics " , " you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic " , " bullshit " , 'unprovable tall claims " , " left ignominiously " which cannot be said to be conducive for a healthy discussion. His most provocative and abusive words are his deliberately false statements : (1)that Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only (actually, Chandrahariji stopped correspondence when he leant that my works were recognized by some leading scientific institutions, and then Mr Sreenadh and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya were hired by Chandrahariji to spread rumours that I never delivered anything at Indian Institute of Science ( cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ NASA%27s_ Report%3B_ %26_my_Paper_ accepted_ by_CAOS%2C_ IISc ). Mr Sunil Bhattacharya even poked fun at my scientific paper which was accepted by CAOS, IISc. I asked these fellows to contact CAOS, IISc whether I was a liar or not, but they had an agenda to malign me. He falsely says " in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. " These " strong words " were fit for a libel suit , and Chandrahariji used such words even in his last mails concerning me, not only in his initial mail. I am pained to note that in spite of my tolerance of Chandrahariji' s abuses, he and a handful of his followers never thought that I am a tolerant person, and intesified their offensive against me, denying any chance of free and fair discussion. When I recognized that Chandrahariji is a dishonest person and wants to literally crush me just because I know the practical methods of Suryasiddhantic computations which he wrongly interprets and falsely projects himself as an expert of Suryasiddhanta, I started refuting him, and challenged him for an intellectual debate, after which he left the field and his followers started abusing me, some of them even sent me obscene messages. > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you. " Chandrahariji abused me till his last mail, and in every reply I requested him to calm down and discuss, but in vain. Mr Sreenadh and Mr Bhaskar once tried to request Chandrahariji to discuss the matter calmly instead of abusing. But they failed. When I asked Chandrahariji for a shaastraartha, his followers were mad with anger and started abusing me. > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya falsely says : " Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you. " Sreenadhji was really good in the beginning, but when Chandrahariji brought the issue to a point of no return, I started challenging his ideas and invited him for a shaastraartha, Chandrahariji went into hibernation and Sreenadhji launched a venomous attack upon me, in AIA, in private emails, and in Allahabad Conference where I was instrumental in allowing him a chance to speak ( there too he abused and left the spot, without hearing the answers). > > Mr Sunil Bhattacharya deliberately forgets these facts and is misreporting here just to create a hostile environment against me. Had he behaved like a gentleman and refrained from impolite words, why I should have denied him the access to my Hindi book, whose English summary still can be read at three websites, one is Australian, another is Wikipedia (history tab), and the third is mine . I removed my book from the jyotirvidya site because the revised version could not be uploaded there due to size and had to be uploaded on another site. > > A lot of people in the world today are under a hallucination that material world is everything and ancient sages had no knowledge which modern science has not discovered. Their refusal to discuss and test springs from this materialist belief. Among these materialists, only those may be able to fairly judge the truth about astrology who keep away from wine, women and selling of astrology. I have not set these rules, these are ancient guidelines which moderners want to deny. > > I was glad when Mr Sunil Bhattacharya said that he wants to get rid of me. Why he has again decidedd to waste my and others' time must have some cause. That cause is a desire to crush the traditional astrology as based on Suryasiddhanta. Although all internet users are users of softwares based on physical astronomy, the wish to kill Suryasiddhantic astrology is a wishful thinking, majority of Indians stil use and will continue to use panchangas and kundalis based on crude or refined tables originally derived from Suryasiddhanta. The refusal to test the astrological validity of Suryasiddhanta is wrongly projected as " scientific " spirit by these enthusiasts. Scientific method does not reject a thing before testing it. > > I am abstaining from using bad words about Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. I left AIA because my time was wasted over refutals of false charges and abuses by these persons, who are now after me in other forums. If I am a bad guy, why he does not forget me ? Has he no noble task at hand ? I have no cure for prejudice. Some people suppose anyone finding something useful in ancient texts must be an obscurantist and must be silenced by force, or by means of abuses. > > -VJ > ============ ==== ============ ==== > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote: > > > > Vinayji, > > > > 1) > > You say that the location of the physical planets are different from the actual locations of the grahas but Vedavyasa does not agree with you. Will you say that Vedavyasa did not have spiritual knowledge which you claim to possess? Vedavyasa said that at the time of the Mahabharata war the Saturn (physical planet) was in Visakha nakshatra (physical location) and that it was tormenting Rohini. > > > > 2) > > You said that Suniljee wants you to demonstrate your computing power like a madaari. Far from it I wanted to you to demonstarte you computing abilities like Shakuntal devi did and nobody has any doubt on her computing ability. Do you want to say Shakuntala Devi is a madaari(ni)? Why do you interpret things in the wrong way more usually than otherwuse? Or is it that you cannot prove it and want a face-saving exit from the topic > > > > 3) As regards Tantra you misinformed the AIA group by saying that Tantra is un-Vedic and I simply corrected it and told you that the Kularnava tantra traces its origin to Veda. Then you said that in Tantra one has to get drunk heavily. I only corrected it by saying that Tantra recommends that one should take the substitutes. Then there is also the alternative procedure of Alipaan, which a symbolical drinking of a drop. However in case of one, who is used to drinking wines, only two-Tolas (ie. one ounce of wine, which is less than the safe limit of wine permitted by the World Health Organisation) was allowed. Now please do not pose the question as to whether the Tantric masters consulted WHO before fixing the two Tolas. You have already made enough of cheap fun of the Two Tolas due to your ignorance of the Tantric norms. > > > > 4) Vinayji please speak out only what is true. Which foul word did I use? Please have the guts to tell the forum. Please leave your dirty tactics of false accusations. Also your claim that one has to be a lifeong Brahmachari to get spiritual knowledge is all bullshit. In the ancient times all the sages like Vasishtha were married. The ancient Kumaras and only a few others were balabrahmachari. From the biographical details that we have of Adi Sankaracharya he told his mother that his longevity (ayu) was less and that he would die unless he became a sanyashi. I do not think Adi Sankaracharya wanted to fool his mother. Moreove of the sankara mathas the Sankaracharyas of the Govardhana Math were grihashthis in their purvashrama. > > > > 5) You never told that your book on Suryasiddhanta was on the Internet website but you pretended to get annoyed with me and you said that you are going to delete that from your website so that I don't get to see it. Please do not play such dirty tricks. If you want to delete it you can very well do it as it is your prerogative. Now I am convinced that a book coming from a person of such attitude may not be worth reading. > > > > 6) > > I agree that in the AIA group Chandrahariji did use strong words in the beginning only because of your unproven and unprovable tall claims. I had, at one time, a lot of correspondence with Chandrahariji and we respected each other even though we did not agree in several things. All other people including Sreenadhji in the AIA group were very polite towards you. They never used a single strong word against you. In fact I also supported you in the beginning. But your much- vaunted scholarship remained only in your assertions and claims. In your every mail you used bring up what Chandrahariji wrote in the beginning to you and you threatened that you will quit that group and to keep your word you had to quit. Sreenadhji, the owners and the moderators were very tolerant towards you and I do not think that you were ousted from the group but yourself made your position very precarious there and you left ignominiously. > > > > -SKB > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 9:37 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > You will never know what secrets I possess due to your foul language. > > > > You say : " I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. " > > > > Margie is adamant on discussing ONLY the physical proofs of astronomical observation in ancient India, brcause she knows that ancient indian astrology was not based on physical observation but on revelations. She has an agenda, and does not want to discuss what India really can offer. She has a negative attitude which no one can change. She and you do not know what I wanted to offer, because I never explained what I have. My unwillingness to explain is taken by you to be my inability. You say : " Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum. " AIA was the only forum where I had agreed to provode proofs and discuss in detail, but a handful of cronies hired by Sreenadh never stopped abusing me and never allowed any free and fair discussion. In no other forum I started such a discussion. I never wanted to prove anything to you, because you were never interested in anything about my methods and often wanted to know > > everything in a paragraph which was impossible. You are a professional astrologer and I am a software developer plus a researcher. We are poles apart. I avoid clients. I am not you competitor because I do not earn money from astrology. I never wanted to become a me,ber of any forum. It was Sreenadh who requested me to join, and later singled me out for abusive bahaviour without any provocation. Later, some other forums invited me and asked me to join their and other forums. Sohams is the only forum which had not invited me. But I joined Sohams because matters pertaining to me were raised there by others. > > > > I know forums are not a right place for me, because all these forums are populated by users of softwares made along modern astronomy which I have found to be far inferior ASTROLOGICALLY in comparison to Suryasiddhantic software. Initially I also used and made softwares based on modern astronomy. I have no hatred for modern scient, I am a recognized scientist myself. it is the misapplication of physical science in a metaphysical discipline like astrology which I oppose. But if someone does not want to test Suryasiddhantic software, it is not going to harm me in the least, because I do not sell any software. > > > > You say : " I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence... " > > > > I am a software developer who used principles different from those used by all other software developers. You are passing judgment on my work without testing my work. If you are not interested in testing my software, I will never ask you to test it. But , then, why are you wasting my and you time ? Forget me and my works if you find it not worth testing and reading. > > > > You are mistaken in saying that I am trying to give some secrets to you. I never tried. Secrets are given to worthy persons. The first criterion of worth is Curiosity (jijnaasaa). You have no jijnaasaa about my method. why should I waste my time over you ?? > > > > I clearly mentioned my methods with practical examples in a non- forum last year. Those who read my explanations are using my software and reporting it to be performing wonderfully. Some persons fail to install it. But only two persons have taken an oath to waste my time over futile discussions leading nowhere : you and Mr Sunil Bhattacharya. These two persons deliberately diverted my topic in AIA on Tantric Astrology to wine and women, knowing full well that a lifelong brahmachaari like me will not like to participate in such a discussion. Winw and women have no place in Tantric Astrology. Ancient tantric texts are the original sources of 84 chakras, some of whom are well known, like panch-shalaakaa and sapta-shalaakaa chakras, sapta-naadi chakra, sarvatobhadra chakra, koorma chakra, etc. A good topic was destroyed. Recently, Mr Sunil Bhattacharya wasted a lot of my time and then started using foul words. you are also adamant on wasting my and your > > time. Have you no business ? If I am a bad guy, either forget me or ask the moderators to ban me. Do not send useless and uncivil posts. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:02:04 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear Vinay jee, > > > > Ha Ha. That was a good one. > > > > See now you dont understand, The other people who are against indian culture and Indian vedic astrology, would now take advantage after seeing this differences between us, which i did not want. > > > > Being inebriated, is not my forte unfortunately. > > > > I mentoned about your being crushed only because I could see that you were not being able to manage strong solid arguments or proofs of what you claimed in front of Marg, which weakness she understood and played with you, till you left back doors. > > > > See how you have called me ignorant, the Moderator here as ignorant, but i still feel that You have some knowledge, and I also feel that Marg has got good knowledge and the Moderator here is the wisest person whom i have ever encountered with. He will not enter the thread unless it leads to someone abusing the other one. Now do you call these statements as under the influence of liquor , or the ones made by Your goodeself ( ??). > > > > The mail you have just presented, I have received the likes of same, in thousands on various groups, which still does not make me Pompous, impudent or proud, because I know my shortcomings in astrology, which these people who send me praise mails do not. I always have my feet planted firmly on the ground. > > > > Unfortunately you have been able to prove nothing of your tall claims on a single forum, since last 6 months of lingering on these, and you tried to impress a smart member Marg here and once again showed the torn spots in your claims which amount to nought. > > > > I still do not understand what secrets are you trying to give us, except that by using your software we will become very good astrologers ? Otherwise we are not so ? This is really boasting and impudence, and not what I have mentioned which speaks of confidence in my knowledge acquired through years of study and nights spent in reading and analysing. > > > > I seriously think that you need some rest and time to study actually what you are trying to claim. because neither have you proved yourself to me, neither to marg, and neither to any member of the various groups you have entered and been showed the door, I am sorry to say. > > > > Now lets stop discussing when you have nothing in your kitty, otherwise the Moderator here will throw me even out, because of you. > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee, > > > > > > I think your redcent mail was written under the influence of liquor, otherwise you would not have boasted thus : " Without my support you would have been crushed by now....You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the Forums. " > > > > > > Neither do I need certficates from impudent and ignorant persons like you, nor do I wish to waste my time in those forums whose moderators pass such mindless messages as posted by you recently. > > > > > > Your statement is false " Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention " , because you did not read my works, as you yourself say " I just visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute. " > > > > > > You say " Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who are trying to do so. " Why you think yourself to be 99% ? Recent version was successfully downloaded by 59.66 % persons who attempted. Remaining 40% had viruses or similar problems. Had the software been defective, everyone would have failed to download and use it. Read a recent email to me : > > > > > > " > > > > > > praNaam sir, > > > > > > sir ur software is pretty accurate! i know u know > > > that already and u dont need any confirmation > > > from anyone else. just thought i should let u > > > know.i just felt like responding cause i felt i was being negative > > > the last time(about fonts and vb > > > errors). > > > > > > and its accurate till prana > > > dashas. > > > the hindi fonts are also back to normal once i > > > removed the fancy skins for windows (windows blinds). > > > using default windows theme now and can see itrans > > > normally. > > > > > > it said danger from fire. the very day my kitchen > > > was full of lpg with all the windows closed!! pipe broken.. > > > another time > > > my firend fought with a lady manager and it was > > > there in the prana dasha (bphs)...... .... " > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ = ============ == > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:59:59 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > > > Even i would prefer a " ji " rather than a " Mr. " . > > > > > > Anyway, Your software is not being downloaded by 99% of the persons who > > > are trying to do so. So unless we download your software , You cannot > > > prove that you know " something " ? > > > > > > You will certainly need my certificates because I rule the roost on the > > > Forums, if I may dare say this with some pride of my knowledge. > > > > > > I am ready to receive knowledge from even a small boy but not from > > > somebody who just talks and preaches but never practises. I mean who > > > says that he has got a Kohinoor Diamond, but in reality has just broken > > > glass pieces in his kitty. > > > > > > Your books, articles web pages have nothing conclusive to mention or > > > culminate in, so whats the use of spending few precious hours on them ? > > > You came with a Big Bang in all the Groups, but what we thought was a > > > mountain, turned out to be a mole hill. > > > > > > Now my Dear frioend Mr.Vinay , if you dont wish to prove yourself then > > > why are you making so much tall claims about the origin of indian > > > astrology which you cannot prove even to a single member of this Group ? > > > I had to help you every time. Without my support you would have been > > > crushed by now. So what have you got ? > > > > > > Since last 6 months you have been playing the same tune from the broken > > > guitar string, that " I have got astrological secrets " , but none have > > > you been able to produce uptil now. You have not been able to prove > > > whatever you have claimed uptil now. Instead you spoil our name in front > > > of foreign astrologers like Marg with whom you cant discuss convincingly > > > but just rattling in the air. > > > > > > If You are not in a mood to prove, then dont claim. > > > > > > If You dont have enough stuff to claim, then dont claim. > > > > > > We will not miss your books or whatever you have removed, because I just > > > visited your site for once, and that only for 1 minute, because I could > > > gauge the depth of the knowledge you profess to have. > > > > > > As regards to abusing you, at least I am not doing this, but have > > > always helped you, which help you cannot understand, with your present > > > set up of mind. > > > > > > I know you have some potential, but unfortunately you have started > > > selling your mangoes before they have turned ripe. > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. > > > I have yet to see > > > > your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You > > > > have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " > > > > > > > > Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears > > > to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has > > > refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made > > > no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one > > > article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya > > > Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I > > > never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I > > > tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of > > > ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on > > > astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to > > > prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free > > > softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are > > > asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to > > > ban me. I will teach my methods only to my > > > > disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free > > > softwares in future. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish@ ... > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Dating of Ramayana > > > > > > > > First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that > > > Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, > > > but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge > > > made over Lanka is to be believed. > > > > > > > > If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge > > > discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed > > > then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this > > > bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan > > > occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this > > > bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole > > > world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. > > > > > > > > Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to > > > > disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? > > > > > > > > Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish > > > mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to > > > take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact > > > confirming the underwater city through their findings . > > > > > > > > Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West > > > knew about astrology much before the Indians ? > > > > > > > > But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on > > > the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also > > > probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we > > > are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the > > > Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than > > > Christians do. > > > > > > > > Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city > > > discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove > > > that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day > > > authors. > > > > > > > > Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the > > > fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the > > > origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a > > > subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put > > > your theories upon. If You have some light > > > > then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to > > > > prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is > > > for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, > > > Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no > > > contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I > > > have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for > > > astrology , single handedly. > > > > > > > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ > > > ....> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay, > > > > > > > > > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could > > > witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below > > > mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be > > > showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this > > > being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > > > > > > > > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying > > > to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could > > > not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. > > > One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not > > > claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others > > > have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > > > > > > > > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. > > > This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and > > > unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and > > > use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as > > > you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become > > > interesting and we all can learn from you. > > > > > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University > > > tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar > > > in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 > > > raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using > > > paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! > > > It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I > > > should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my > > > computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > > > > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which > > > I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more > > > by rote in early boyhood. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age > > > people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because > > > anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your > > > computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that > > > people will not doubt what you say. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, > > > and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are > > > metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions > > > without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can > > > compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the > > > marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority > > > of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her > > > attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no > > > avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian > > > astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology > > > are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is > > > personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a > > > guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future > > > sitting in > > > > > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical > > > observation, or > > > > > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be > > > enough > > > > > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, > > > who had > > > > > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , > > > developed > > > > > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me > > > can > > > > > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > > > > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and > > > actual > > > > > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > > > > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > > > > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for > > > money . > > > > > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in > > > 2,50000 > > > > > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have > > > the > > > > > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > > > > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge > > > one > > > > > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any > > > qualms > > > > > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > > > > > you say: > > > > > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock > > > paintings of > > > > > > even 30000 BC'' > > > > > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > > > > > discovered in India? > > > > > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording > > > of > > > > > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with > > > paintings > > > > > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an > > > ancient > > > > > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > > > > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian > > > Astrology > > > > > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be > > > read > > > > > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which > > > may > > > > > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since > > > Vedas > > > > > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. > > > But > > > > > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > > > > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts > > > of > > > > > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. > > > Hence, > > > > > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is > > > meaningless, > > > > > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > > > > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then > > > discussed > > > > > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > > > > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > > > > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were > > > forwarded. > > > > > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was > > > therefore > > > > > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which > > > was > > > > > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC > > > was said > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > > > > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of > > > 2nd > > > > > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have > > > lived > > > > > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > > > > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after > > > 3000 BC, > > > > > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming > > > that > > > > > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > > > > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages > > > for > > > > > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found > > > that the > > > > > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt > > > in > > > > > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again > > > for > > > > > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided > > > to > > > > > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly > > > arrived > > > > > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root > > > for > > > > > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its > > > derivatives > > > > > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it > > > is > > > > > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. > > > That > > > > > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash > > > which > > > > > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > > > > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > > > > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to > > > all > > > > > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, > > > and > > > > > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were > > > being > > > > > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " > > > was > > > > > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean > > > that > > > > > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such > > > ideas, > > > > > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological > > > houses > > > > > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to > > > Sumer and > > > > > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings > > > and > > > > > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that > > > common > > > > > > origin??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > > > > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is > > > 7th > > > > > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the > > > state > > > > > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have > > > cause : > > > > > > consequence relation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death > > > (8th > > > > > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from > > > Death, > > > > > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses > > > and > > > > > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the > > > result ; > > > > > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below > > > the > > > > > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, > > > glory, > > > > > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and > > > Power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence > > > : > > > > > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is > > > its > > > > > > > result : loss. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > > > > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical > > > design > > > > > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > > > > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As > > > shown > > > > > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus > > > Nishkaama > > > > > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, > > > the > > > > > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of > > > death > > > > > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death > > > and > > > > > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > > > > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies > > > elesewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found > > > in > > > > > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical > > > remains > > > > > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is > > > a > > > > > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the > > > state > > > > > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 > > > ritus. > > > > > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > > > > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > > > > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right > > > from > > > > > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is > > > Vedic. > > > > > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real > > > experts of > > > > > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from > > > those of > > > > > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > > > > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence > > > there was > > > > > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > > > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most > > > astrologers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the > > > proof > > > > > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation > > > with > > > > > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly > > > precise if > > > > > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on > > > many > > > > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > > > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > > > > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise > > > which > > > > > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > > > > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC > > > which show > > > > > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know > > > the > > > > > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings > > > on > > > > > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and > > > mammoth > > > > > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to > > > have > > > > > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > > > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in > > > India, > > > > > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there > > > don't you > > > > > > think? > > > > > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical > > > evidence > > > > > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > > > > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I > > > would > > > > > > really appreciate knowing this > > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and > > > religion to a > > > > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia > > > contain > > > > > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural > > > roots, > > > > > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India > > > is an > > > > > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the > > > ancient > > > > > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient > > > Babylonians > > > > > > culturally. > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > > > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear R > > > > > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still > > > delivering > > > > > > readings? > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > > > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to > > > those who > > > > > > need same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are > > > doing > > > > > > the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Vinay, u have confirmeed v clearly what is assumed and I have said this from my observations, readings but urs is more 1st hand. and as said our historians r more leftists than nehurivian as they still gloat in the myths of a dead communist era when they say no religion why do they treat INVADERS differently from local vedic religion as Hinduism as a word itself was used by Invaders SANATHANA DHARMA or the universal thought was the word for vedic stream of people they hae over 33 crore devathas. each atom or sub atom instead of a code or a acrynom has a unique deity named to identify its energy and our deities r but representatives of different energy fields starting from the Pancha bhootas and moving higher, Vedic mantras are again mediums of energy sound is considered the lowest form of energy and energy flows from the higher to the lower ones so Mantras draw ebergy from the higher levels to it and give the reciter the required energy like a medicine helping a sick person re-coup the glory and depth of vedic heritage must be -rediscovered by our own efforts as govt will not. probably using UNESCO, UNICEF funds can help also best wishes Prashant On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:19 PM, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > I wasted years in archaeology, and then left it because I could not > carry all the excavations myself. ASI (Archaeological Survey of India) is > interested in sites only when it fits into the British / Nehruvian / Leftist > model of history. I have evidences of deliberate misreporting by ASI about > excavations. For instance, Balirajgarh in Bihar was excavated and ASI > reported that it existed between 150 BC and 600 AD. But after repeated > question in parliament by a senior MP of that district, it was revealed that > the bottom layer yielded NBPW which belonged to the period 600-150 BC, and > furthe excavation was stopped due to groundwater. ASI did not want to go > beyond Buddhist period, otherwise it would have carried out further > excavations in dry season with the help of pumping sets. Instead, it issued > false report which suggested nothing existed there before 150 BC. An > adjacent site is named Asurgarh ( Bali was also an asura) and hundreds of > punched marked coins were found there by a district magistrate which ASI is > not displaying, and I also found many pre-Mauryan coins at these sites which > I gave to university head but not to ASI, because ASI will destroy these > evidences. in the same region, Vaishali has yielded PGW pottery which > leftists associate with Vedic culture but their textbooks do not report that > Vedic region included Vaishali. Kashi has yielded C-14 proofs of iron in a > prehistoric layer dating back to ~3000 BC, but no scholar accepts such facts > and say earthquake might have caused it. > > There are ample physical proofs of astrology in ancient period, but > mainstream historians deliberately misinterpret the data. > Moreover,revelation and not physical observation was the mainstay of Vedic > astrology. That is why I asked Margie to test Vedic astrology > " astrologically " , not physically. > > -VJ > > > <%40>, > astro desk <astro.prashantkumar wrote: > > > > Dear Marg > > > > it is strange, but true we cant find much of what u want to know that u > have > > not found any physical evidence of any archia material in India > > > > WHY > > > > WE INDIANS HAVE FALLEN PREY TO the " Stockolm syndrome " > > > > I don't think I need to explain this term to u if u r from the west > > > > Indian history is conviently distored by the invaders like Biriths who > used > > it as a Admin tool > > > > they divided India in to 2 parts NORTH SOUTH > > > > THEN NORTH AS HIMDU-MUSLIM > > > > SOUTH ON ARYAN, DRAVIDIAN and all over distorted the caste picture > > > > India after becoming Indipendedt under its socialist leanings and love ro > > all the comunists gave this LEFT brains the job of education culture for > > them anyting invaders did was superior to Hindu till this date > > > > the deride, denigrate all Hindu/vedic concepts and project all the crimes > > of the invaders and their tribes as sacred things and conveniently want > us > > to ignore them for unity sake for who just otes of their dedicated poor, > > sick mentally backward ppl only > > > > they thrive in poverty, sick pouplation and Minorites who r bron as more > of > > victis of invaders sadly cherish their forced religion state again > stockholm > > syndrome > > > > INDIAN GOVTS NEVER SPENT A PIE ON ARCHIOLOGY, DIGGING OUR PAST OR TRYING > TO > > UNEARTHOUR PAST > > > > NAX some in TN do it rest of India r not keeon on knowing their past, > they r > > taught by Nehruvian model to hate, feel ashamed of being a Hindu, do > > everything to keep them backard and called be obscurunists > > > > what happened in Manglore pubs is bad from both sides > > > > one the clb had no permission to run as night club, max a restarunt > > > > but the attendece was for alchol, daces again unlwaful > > > > the crime of the Hindu brigade > > > > did in throwing the parymen is in bad taste but this was the job of the > cops > > who never did it so instead of treeating it as a law and order problem > our > > media which is secular or left parties driven tarnishes the hindus not > the > > criminals who ran the illigal bar > > > > had they treated the bar and the saffron brigade in same light we can > > understand they r ok with one crime not the other > > > > but if this was a american club may be left partiees wud have risen > against > > it > > > > COMING BACK TO UR MAIN POINT > > > > WE IN INDIA HAVE TO LEARN TO RESPECT AND CHERISH OUR HERITAGE AND WELL > > MEANING FINANCIALL WELL OF INDIASN MUST SPEND RESOURCES EVEN AID FROM > WEST > > dig our past and show the world what we r than get such taunts from the > west > > > > as our govt wont lift a finger on Hindu concerns > > > > Prashant > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching > > > by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are > > > constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland > there > > > are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful > > > calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians > have > > > star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls > possible > > > circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland > Europe > > > over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent > the > > > phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which > is > > > odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of > > > very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically > > > located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really > appreciate > > > knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > <%40><% > 40> > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only > > > relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and > does > > > nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. > > > Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but > millions > > > try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Marg <margie9 <margie9%40talktalk.net>> > > > <%40><% > 40> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need > > > same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the > > > same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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