Greeks vs Indians HOLY JEUS!

March 31, 2009

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need

same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the

same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications!)

RR

March 31, 2009

Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally.

-VJ

________________________________

Marg <margie9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

RR

March 31, 2009

Similarly modern Indians :-)

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians

culturally.

-VJ

________________________________

Marg <margie9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering

readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need

same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the

same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

RR

March 31, 2009

No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great

extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of

the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve

pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of

modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to

ancient norms...

-VJ

________________________________

Marg <margie9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Similarly modern Indians :-)

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally.

-VJ

____________ _________ _________ __

Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net>

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

RR

March 31, 2009

Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures.

Perhaps you can help me with a query?

As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by

ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being

rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to

be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and

star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings

and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and

mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have

notches on them which represent the phases of the moon.

Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd

when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think?

I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very

early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located

physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this

thanks

M

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great

extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of

the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve

pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of

modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to

ancient norms...

-VJ

________________________________

Marg <margie9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Similarly modern Indians :-)

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians

culturally.

-VJ

____________ _________ _________ __

Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net>

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering

readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need

same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the

same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

RR

March 31, 2009

Dear Vinay Jha and Sunil ji and the other members,

Obviously we are now being asked to prove our astrological credentials

by this mail of Marg. Why do we need to do this ? For whose benefit ?

For rigid minds and personalities who cannot take any answer which may

not fit in with their views ?

Mr.Vinay Jha ji, whatever may be our differences, I know you are a man

of great knowledge and I once again implore you not to get in this

business of trying to prove anything to anybody. Same with You Dear

Sunil ji. I cannot bear to see any knowledge being wasted on pittances.

But for those who need further proof, Watch this video from a white skin

and if you find it interesting and educative then please go for all the

3-4 Parts of this . (It is a great video to watch for all true lovers of

Indian Culture and those looking for proof especially on astrology)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMlisMg4VPo & feature=related

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMlisMg4VPo & feature=related>

Lastly I would request Shri Vinay Jha and Shri Sunil ji to please not

enter into any differences of opinions with reference to the subject of

topics under discussion. India needs a collective force, and we are

engaged in doing right the opposite, by creating factions between each

other due to conflicting opinions. Let one stay with his opinion and

allow another to remain with his. And stay as good associates . Period.

regards/Bhaskar.

, " Marg " <margie9 wrote:

>

> Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many

cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query?

> As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon

watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which

are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in

Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show

careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the

Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on

pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth

tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have

notches on them which represent the phases of the moon.

> Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India,

which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you

think?

> I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence

of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual

geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would

really appreciate knowing this

> thanks

> M

> -

> Vinay Jha

>

> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM

> Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

>

> No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a

great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain

only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots,

and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an

exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient

ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms...

> -VJ

>

> ________________________________

> Marg margie9

>

> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM

> Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

>

> Similarly modern Indians :-)

> -

> Vinay Jha

>

> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM

> Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

>

> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians

culturally.

> -VJ

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net>

>

> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

> Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

>

> Dear R

> I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering

readings?

> -

> Rohiniranjan

>

> Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

> Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

>

> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who

need same?

>

> How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing

the same?

>

> Case closed?

>

> For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

>

> RR

>

March 31, 2009

Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa

Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World

Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website.

Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers.

Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said

to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of

astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient

civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back

torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian

Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be

advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed

the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I

devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating

of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a

pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of

Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West.

Hence, 1200 BC was said to

be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean

Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it

proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into

account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be

possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be

applied.

Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not

know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE

branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels

separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the

Vedic form in almost all cases !!!

Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy

of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I

was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical

semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For

instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda,

bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At

33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother

of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash

which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika

(worldly) usage.

Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The

Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore

believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real

purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent,

social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does

it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such

ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so.

Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it.

Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in

all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most

societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to

some common origins. Where is that common origin???

Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern

horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which

signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama

gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation.

2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house).

Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and

sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to

maarkesh.

3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya

(Fortune).

At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider.

Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the

consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power.

5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence :

income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its

result : loss.

Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and

opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12

houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept

spread to other lands.

The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above,

the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the

concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory

pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means

of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and

8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such

philosophies elesewhere.

Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There

are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but

hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the

truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of

24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as

Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts "

deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest

times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second

cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used

Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were

believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen

through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But

Drikpakshiya astronomy was not

unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers.

It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian

astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy,

but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics

is followed.

-VJ

________________________________

Marg <margie9

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures.

Perhaps you can help me with a query?

As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by

ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being

rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to

be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and

star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings

and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and

mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have

notches on them which represent the phases of the moon.

Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd

when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think?

I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very

early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located

physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this

thanks

M

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great

extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of

the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve

pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of

modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to

ancient norms...

-VJ

____________ _________ _________ __

Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net>

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Similarly modern Indians :-)

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally.

-VJ

____________ _________ _________ __

Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net>

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM

Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

Dear R

I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings?

-

Rohiniranjan

Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM

Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!>

How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same?

How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same?

Case closed?

For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! )

RR

March 31, 2009

Hi Vinay

you say:

''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even

30000 BC''

So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in

India?

Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or

constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or

any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of

observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC?

best wishes

M

-

Vinay Jha

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM