Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications!) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Similarly modern Indians :-) - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Similarly modern Indians :-) - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this thanks M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Similarly modern Indians :-) - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha and Sunil ji and the other members, Obviously we are now being asked to prove our astrological credentials by this mail of Marg. Why do we need to do this ? For whose benefit ? For rigid minds and personalities who cannot take any answer which may not fit in with their views ? Mr.Vinay Jha ji, whatever may be our differences, I know you are a man of great knowledge and I once again implore you not to get in this business of trying to prove anything to anybody. Same with You Dear Sunil ji. I cannot bear to see any knowledge being wasted on pittances. But for those who need further proof, Watch this video from a white skin and if you find it interesting and educative then please go for all the 3-4 Parts of this . (It is a great video to watch for all true lovers of Indian Culture and those looking for proof especially on astrology) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMlisMg4VPo & feature=related <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMlisMg4VPo & feature=related> Lastly I would request Shri Vinay Jha and Shri Sunil ji to please not enter into any differences of opinions with reference to the subject of topics under discussion. India needs a collective force, and we are engaged in doing right the opposite, by creating factions between each other due to conflicting opinions. Let one stay with his opinion and allow another to remain with his. And stay as good associates . Period. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its result : loss. Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this thanks M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Similarly modern Indians :-) - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi Vinay you say: ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its result : loss. Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this thanks M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Similarly modern Indians :-) - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear R I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? - Rohiniranjan Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? Case closed? For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha ji, I had given you good advise earlier too in another group but you misunderstood the same. Today again you did not pay heed to my well meant advice, but fell in the trap laid out before you. I had clearly told you there is no need to impress anyone. We must be satisfied with whatever knowledge we have and must be proud of the same instead of advocating the efficacy if the same to each and every person one meets,which is not required at all. How can we give proof about the tangibility of Air which is a necessity, or Love which is a feeling or about the Origin of Indian astrology which pre-dates almost all other human civilsations, which is a known truth and fact and does not neccessitate any proof, just like one does not need proof to know who is ones parents when he grows big. You must know who, though being a critic, is also a well wisher, and must be able to differentiate from those who may look very polite but may have intentions which may be termed as dubious . Here I am not referring to anybody. Just stating in general. regards, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 // As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. // Agreed completely. I personally respect the Seers and researchists of every Tradition and from every country whom I treat as Yogis of the West. // No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. // Disagreed completely. One must read the Rig veda and understand the astrological purports through which men of even modern century have been able to calculate the day of death, and the day of marriage, which book has been published by the Bhartiya Vidya Bhuvan, one of the foremost and best centres of knowledge in the world. I have the book with the rigveda shlokas, and how they have been used to compute this, though its difficult to understand as total astronomy has been used to relate the astrological predictions . Once one understands the rig veda texts then he is free to move backwards in time , and Iwill provide the necessary proof for those eras too. But first understand this. // My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? // I have already given the Video links which will show the archealogical findings in Colour. After that its not for us to give proof but for the inquisitive to do his own study and move forward in whatever is intended. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Vinay > I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. > As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. > Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. > I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. > As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. > If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? > No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. > My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? > Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. > best wishes > M > > > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 //If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there?// The whole educated world knows about Indias contribution to mathematics, Algebra, Trignometry, Astronomy, mettalurgy, religion, spiritual wealth etc.etc. and there is no necessity of providing any proof to anyone. I do not understand why the members of the Group are being forced to prove and assert that vedic astrology was not the foremost, original or the initial one. I do not understand why are we asked to provide proof of our heritage and culture .. I do not understand why is an attempt being made to belittle India, vedas, vedic astrology and Indias contributions to the world. I do not understand where have we mentioned that we are Superior to others (Though we could easily say so with the achievemnts the indians have made and given the fruits of same to the West). I do not understand why is those who are Non india feel inferior or complexed as to demand proof of our knowledge which is known to us as existing since eons. I would request to please come out with the actual agenda professed instead of this issue turning a total waste of precious time and leaving scars unintended on those participating.Even if all this was proved so what after that ??? I am still a Lover of Primary and secondary Directions, The Theory and apllicability of fixed stars, and still love Alan Leo, Carter, Benham, Frawley, Lily, Ptolemy, Cornell, Heindel, rapheal, Sepharial, tierney, Wilson and so many others like them whom I consider as Astrological Yogis of the West . Should we not be talking and exchanging ideas propounded by the Western and easter Astro yogis, instead of this flimsy and unyielding ,fruitless discussion ? If i can Love them, why cant You ? If I do not say i am superior then why do you feel inferior ? If I do not demand any proofs, then why do You ? Lets discuss like good astrologers on astrology, and leave all this behind us. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Vinay > I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. > As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. > Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. > I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. > As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. > If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? > No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. > My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? > Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. > best wishes > M > > > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, // Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail // I do not know why you have to attract her. Honey should be able to attract bees, and not vice versa. If we wish to attract somebody then we must have that type of stuff to attract. If You have this stuff, then Please allow us these secret methods too, but if it means going and downloading your software, then its difficult, for you know my exerience alongwith many of others too. Instead if You could tabulate those secrets and let us know how to apply them in predictive astrology, then it could be highly useful. But if it means just cumputation of numerological data, then its not going to work. Yes if you have certain principles which lead to the computation of any mathematical data which if used can lead one to predict better, then - 1) Please enumerate those principles. 2) Please Show how to compute the data using these principles. 3) Please Show how to predict better with the data thus arrived at. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Vinay > I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. > As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. > Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. > I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. > As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. > If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? > No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. > My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? > Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. > best wishes > M > > > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinayji, You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 To Margie ; Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. -Vinay Jha ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Good Mail. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > To Margie ; > > Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " > > > You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. > It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. > > Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. > > I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? > > If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead > stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. > > -Vinay Jha > > > ________________________________ > Marg <margie9 > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinay > I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. > As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. > Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. > I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. > As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. > If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? > No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. > My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? > Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. > best wishes > M > > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. -VJ ________________________________ Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinayji, You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 How is this different from the Trachenberg system (which i learned in my teens but never practised till date) ? regards/Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinayji, > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, She may be asked to request me for a visit and I will take her to the place (Temple) where Lord Shiva and Parvati were married. the sacred fire of that marriage is still burning there, if one chooses to believe this. This temple is in a remote place and not with common access or very famous, as they do not wish extra visitors there. The temple keepers and the local villagers keep the fires burning by constant putting of wooden sticks brought from the nearby jungle (This place is en route to Kedarnatha but of course a long detour is necessary) I have been to this temple 10 years ago, prayed there, also sat in front of the sacred fire, done Pooja, and of course with reference to the topic under question , I can show her some carved stones there in the temple which for a believer could be enough to prove the existence of astrology beyond the recorded times. I have the photos of the place (Chavri) where Lord Shiva Parvati took their 7 Pheras which wedding was presided by Lord Brahma, Vishnu and other devatas of the heavens. Of course I am not expected to show the photos of the marriage which obviously i cannot have. One can check when Lord Shiva and Parvati were married if one can find the datre of vedanga Jyotish, then this could also be done. Coming near to the conscious times in recent past, those who know about parashar rishi ( Author of BPH), I have visted his cave, and had darshan of the Parashar Shila, (The Stone seat on which he used to sit ), also had blessings from this shila through light passing through my (Optical Thalamus) Agya chakra ( If this is believeable by anybody). In this cave too one may find chinhas ( Remnants of the historic past ) which will denote the knowledge of ancient astrology having existed in the distant past. Once having done this if my time is well paid for, then I can show many other such places where the proofs would be presented , without any fabrications - As it is. But only to a believer. If one chooses to malign, throw mud, or make it a habit to disagree, then no one can help. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Vinay > My original question was a simple one. > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? > I thought it was a straightforward question, and I was hoping to find out yes or no, or to be given some examples of ancient artefacts if any did exist. > It may be that there are many but you know of none. That's fine. > This was all I asked, nothing more. > best wishes > M > > > > > > - > Vinay Jha > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:11 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > To Margie ; > > Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " > > You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. > It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. > > Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. > > I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? > > If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead > stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. > > -Vinay Jha > > ________________________________ > Marg margie9 > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear Vinay > I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. > As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. > Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. > I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. > As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. > If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? > No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. > My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? > Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. > best wishes > M > > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Vinay, I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Dear Vinayji, > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > Bhaskar. > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Hi Vinay > > you say: > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > even 30000 BC'' > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > discovered in India? > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > not satisfy readers. > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > to > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > origin??? > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > consequence relation. > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > result : loss. > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9@ > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > think? > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > really appreciate knowing this > > thanks > > M > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > - > > Vinay Jha > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > culturally. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Dear R > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > readings? > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > need same? > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > the same? > > > > Case closed? > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > RR > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 @ Margie : Archaeology was my passion. I have personally investigated 65 sites, most of them not visited by any archaeologist. But later I realized archaeology has its own limitations and it cannot recreate the living history, it can only help in recreating the physical setting in which societies evolved. Then I widened my field, and devoted 12 years to comparative linguistics. I had a blind faith in Indo-Europeanist propaganda, because I knew no alternative, and was a hardcore atheist. It was after decades of sincere efforts that God pitied me and opened my eyes gradually. Then, I restarted studying Jyotisha. After some years, I came to the surprising conclusion that both Drikpakshiya physical astronomy and Saurpakshiya non-physical astronomy thrived in ancient India, although none of them relied upon physical instruments. There was a third school, comprising of persons like you, who relied upon or tried to rely upon physical instruments. A scholar at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research writes : " Design and description of Vedis (altars) and other religious sites have all been shown to be sensitive to the presence or absence of a particular astronomical object in a particular location. " It proves that astronomical observation was in vogue. But this was a later development, and observatories in India were a creation of early modern period, under muslim influence. If Margie wants to prove that " physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations " should be used as a proof of existence of astronomy or astrology, then astronomy or astrology originated in India only in late 18th century when observatories were built by Moghul vassals. On the other hand, Stonehenge may prove the existence of astronomy or astrology in UK in remote antiquity. But is such a conclusion sensible ?? Whatever was the use of Stonehenge, has its legacy survived anywhere in any discernible form ? in texts written after 500 AD, some artefacts are mentioned, which I am not interested in investigating, because they could not give the astonishingly accurate results mentioned in some ancient texts. For instance, read the article at http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha+vs+Precession which proves that astonishingly accurate results were obtained in ancient India WITHOUT any physical instruments of comparable accuracy. The conclusion is that physical observation existed, but was not valued by prominent astronomers / astrologers. How, then, they deduced appreciably accurate results ? As shown in this article, Hipparchus got a value 36000 for precessional period, while Bhaskara cited Shruti (Vedic oral tradition) which gave a period very close to modern value. Similarly, " the average length of the tropical year as 365.2421756 days, which is only 1.4 seconds shorter than the modern value of 365.2421904 days (J2000). This estimate remained the most accurate approximation for the length of the tropical year anywhere in the world " (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya_Siddhanta). Suryasiddhantic synodical month has a value of 29.53058794607 days, which is highly accurate. Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Greek or Chinese values were much cruder. If physical instruments and observatories give better results, how it could happen that a country showing no proof of any observatory and no major finding of astronomical artifacts (according to Margie) could produce better results than those countries which relied more on physical instruments? I, therefore, repeat : " The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen... but you are not interested in learning the Vedic method " , as you say " This (physical arifacts in ancient India) was all I asked, nothing more. " -VJ ================== ====================== ================ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:00:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay My original question was a simple one. Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? I thought it was a straightforward question, and I was hoping to find out yes or no, or to be given some examples of ancient artefacts if any did exist. It may be that there are many but you know of none. That's fine. This was all I asked, nothing more. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:11 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> To Margie ; Your reaction is misplaced. I never intended to offend you, but i was really annoyed with your insistence on discussing irrelevant things. All your statements are based upon your wrong belief : " My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? " You have missed the spirit of India. India did not exist in physical monuments and manuscripts. The real India existed in orally transmitted knowledge which was rarely written down. Even the Vedas were written down in a much later period, when it was feared that it would no longer be safe to rely upon oral tradition to preserve them. If you want to discuss megaliths or mircoliths, you will find remains of aboriginals. Sages left nothing monumental, not even manuscripts. I can show you physically discernible proofs too, but why should I waste my time over insignificant things when I am capable of showing you better evidences which will certainly please you, provided you listen and stop talking like a professor of history. Vedas and Vedangas are living realities, and that is why some aliens try to kill it, or at least deny its originality. I do not say you are part of this design. But you are certainly a victim of this design. Vedic knowledge is secret. It is foolish to imagine that Maxmuller knew it. He got only the corpse of some mantras, which he could not use properly. I have seen the power of Vedic mantras. But this can be shown only to pure souls, and not to those who abuse Vedas. Your assumptions are based upon two centuries of colonialist propaganda. For instance, you say : " No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on. " Vedas are not astrological treatises, but offer ample evidences of relations to astrology. Yajurveda starts with Darsha-paurnamaasa Yajna, which is performance of certain rites on certain auspicious tithis (muhurtas) for fulfilling certain objectives. Why individual horoscopes should be discussed in Vedas is beyond comprehension. The concept of 12 house is based upon Vedic philosophy as I earlier pointed out, but you deliberately ignored them. I never wanted to underrate other astrological traditions. But now I guess you are not interested in learning the Vedic method and your sole purpose is to deny the originality and efficacy of Vedic astrology, I must say that you are groping in a wrong direction by trying to " explore the origins of astrology across cultures " . You will never reach to Truth by mixing Truth with Falsehoods. Why you refuse to discuss what I want to offer : scientific validity of Vedic Astrology in modern world ??? If you are not clear about what I want to say (but have not), you may ask me to elaborate. but if you have a limited agenda of provong that astrology came to India from outside, there is no point in discussing, because astrology existed and still exists only in India, other varieties are mere carcasses of astrology. In the West. no university recognizes astrology. Hence, Western astrology has no validity even in the West. But many recognized universities teach Vedic astrology in India. It is because Vedic astrology proves to be right in predicting events, although individual practitioners may err. On 28 Feb 2009, I predicted in Allahabad conference attented by astrologers of 7 nations, before TV crewmen who recorded my statement, that new Vedic year will start with Lahore bomb blast. I have made innumerable similar predictions. Why are you not interested in learning the method of such predictions, and why are you wasting your and mine time over dead stones of past ??? If my words offend you, I apologize. But I cannot change Truth. -Vinay Jha ____________ _________ _________ __ Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:07:55 AM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> Dear Vinay I think anyone of real intelligence, learning and profound insight would use facts to support their views or argument, and when only a character assassination is offered instead of logic or reasoning or further evidence, then clearly there is no place further to go, as clearly arguments have run out on your side. As a language expert myself I am well aware of etymology, semantics and roots of language, I do not find any concrete evidence which can help define exact dates of terminology sufficient to prove which language is the first or foremost which is why I didn't follow that route. Perhaps you do not want to explore the origins of astrology across cultures Vinay, maybe it means you have to give up some of your understandings, while other astrologers do want to compare the origins of this subject in a less subjective and more rational way. I haven't set up any astrological tradition as superior to another, only you seem to be asserting such a belief. As I said earlier each tradition has its own merit, and all have a tradition of the subject being taught by seers with allegedly 'divine' sight, borne of supposed strong religious convictions, or so has been interpreted, vedic astrology is not alone in this. If there are no examples of actual geographical locations of physical evidence to support ancient astrological or astronomical tradition in India, then why feel it ''inferior'' to say so? Are you afraid it denies your belief in astrology being 'born' there? No one has proven Veda have an astrological teaching to pass on, or a tradition of prediction itself in terms of predicting the outcome of an individual life, though undoubtedly there are allusions to astronomy. My point, which you prefer to avoid addressing, is that it is puzzling that while all other cultures associated with an ancient astrological tradition, borne of the knowledge of the seers of that culture, are constantly finding evidence of how deep rooted that tradition is via archaeological finds, India seems to not have such evidence of what is perceived by some to be the birth place of astrology? Personally Vinay I have preference for only the truth, and nothing but the truth. Perhaps you prefer to stick to your own beliefs? That's fine, but in future please don't use personal attacks as a substitute for argument or debate. best wishes M - Vinay Jha Tuesday, March 31, 2009 7:21 PM Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Vinay > you say: > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC'' > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first discovered in India? > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > best wishes > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may not satisfy readers. > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said to > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a Laukika (worldly) usage. > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common origin??? > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : consequence relation. > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and wealth are related to maarkesh. > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; bhaagya (Fortune). > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > result : loss. > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you think? > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would really appreciate knowing this > thanks > M > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > - > Vinay Jha > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians culturally. > -VJ > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > Dear R > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering readings? > - > Rohiniranjan > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who need same? > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing the same? > > Case closed? > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > RR > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 The Dating of Ramayana First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge made over Lanka is to be believed. If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact confirming the underwater city through their findings . Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West knew about astrology much before the Indians ? But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than Christians do. Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day authors. Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put your theories upon. If You have some light then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for astrology , single handedly. regards/Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Vinay, > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > best wishes, > Bhaskar. > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > you say: > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > even 30000 BC'' > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > discovered in India? > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > best wishes > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > to > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > origin??? > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > consequence relation. > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > result : loss. > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > really appreciate knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > need same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > the same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Mr Bhaskar wrote : " Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution. " Mr Bhaskar was in good humour for quite some time, but now he appears to relapse into his former moods. I do not need his certificates. He has refused to read my books, articles, papers and webpages and says I made no contribution. Today, I removed my book on Suryasiddhanta and one article from my webpage due to offensive language of Sunil Bhattacharya Jee. Now I may remove the rest. Knowledge is not given to abusers. I never demanded anyone to show his/her capabilities or keep quiet. When I tried to elaborate (in AIA) the accurate method of Mundane Astrology of ancient Yaamala Tantras, those very persons prevented any discussion on astrology who are now asking me to prove my worth. I am in no need to prove myself. After a lifelong of research, I developed some free softwares which these persons are under an oath not to use, and are asking me to prove my worth. If I am worthless, ask the moderators to ban me. I will teach my methods only to my disciples, never to those who had predicted that I will sell my free softwares in future. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Wednesday, April 1, 2009 9:43:08 PM Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> The Dating of Ramayana First of all, I remind those who have read the Ramayana here, that Jyotish does have a reference in Ramayana, and not just at one place, but more than one . If the Ramayana is to be believed, then the bridge made over Lanka is to be believed. If the bridge over Lanka is to be believed , then the Adams bridge discovered by NASA , is to be believed. And if NASA is to be believed then the dates given by the Worlds best authorities about the time this bridge was built, is also to be believed, which matches with the Ramayan occurrence. And all authorities are univocal in confirming that this bridge cannot be built naturally.Such a clear proof than what the whole world has seen, defies skeptics and dis belief any which way. Now can anyone bring us better and pre-dated references than this to disapprove India's sovereignty in being the King of astrology ? Those who have read the Bhagawat know the reference of Jyotish mentioned therein. Those who do not believe in Krishna would now have to take an about turn since archeological discoveries are in fact confirming the underwater city through their findings . Can Marg produce better references then these to claim that the West knew about astrology much before the Indians ? But before that, I suppose we would be asked wheres the signboard on the Adams bridge, written that it was the same bridge, and may also probably ask us additionally whether the Ramayana is authentic. And we are good people so we will never ask about the authenticity of the Bible, because I do believe in Jesus and love him probably more than Christians do. Or they may ask us how can You prove that the underwater city discovered in Dwarka is Krishnas city. And we may also be asked to prove that the Bhagwat was written by the ancients and not the modern day authors. Which is why I say that do not fall in trap of trying to impress the fairer sex, and neither try to show the greatness of your country or the origins of something which you have not studied about, properly. learn a subject properly before you try to attract somebody's attention and put your theories upon. If You have some light then the brightness would be seen around you. No need to prove it or show case it. Mr.Vinay this last part of the message is for you. I have yet to see your proficiency either in Astrology, Astronomy, or Mathematics. You have stirred the Hornests nest with no contribution, and no strong argument to take the None believers, which I have to settle for the dignity of my country, culture and love for astrology , single handedly. regards/Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> wrote: > > Dear Vinay, > > I would like you to predict here too on the groups so that all could witness your predictive abilities, which you mentioned in the below mail. But Computational and Mathematical skills are not required o be showcased, as I dont think anybody would be interested in that,this being an astrology Forum and not a maths one. > > By the way I am fighting your battle which you began here by trying to impress on Marg the origin of Indian vedic astrology which you could not. I have also fought for you in the past without any thanksgivings. One should go and try proving something which can be proved, or else not claim about anything. Otherwise one makes a fool of himself. And others have to defend him with their time and efforts. > > Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you. > > best wishes, > Bhaskar. > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > A reader in Department of Jyotisha in KSD Sanskrit University tested me before many scholars. Then the Head of Department of Grammar in the same university tested me (he asked me a simpler question : 786 raised to the power 8, which I answered within seconds without using paper or any tool. Then he replied that I must have used some tricks !!! It is impossible to satisfy such sceptics. If Sunil ji wants that I should stop my research work and become a madaari demonstrating my computational ability, he will be discouraged. > > I am not Ramanujam, and I acquired some mathematical talents which I really needed. I learnt logarithmic and antilog tables and a lot more by rote in early boyhood. > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> > > > > Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:32:19 AM > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > You said that you can compute faster than a computer. In this age people want proof and do not want to believe in assertions because anybody can get away with assertions. So may I request you to get your computing power publicly demonstrated and reliably reported so that people will not doubt what you say. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > wrote: > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re: Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 11:21 AM > > > > As I had suspected, Marg entirely missed the points raised by me, and is deliberately harping on physical proofs of what I say are metaphysical entities. Bhaskar ji can give her planetary positions without using any physical tools, and I can demonstrate that I can compute faster than a computer. Margie is not interested in knowing the marvels of Vedic astrology, and is more keen on proving the superiority of non-Indian astrology. Earlier too, I had tried to attract her attention towards secret methods of Vedic mundane astrology, but to no avail. Even if someone finds physical evidences of Indian or non-Indian astrology in 20000000 BC, it will help nobody. Veda and Vedic Astrology are parts of Eternal Religion (Sanatana Dharma), and religion is personal experience which can be taught and learnt only through a guru-shishya tradition. Sterile discussion will lead us nowhere. > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:36:16 PM > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > I can give you the planetary positions of any date in future sitting in > > a closed room without going to a observatory or physical observation, or > > access to any Table, Ephemeris, Computer or Almanac. That must be enough > > proof of the Ancient Indian knowledge of observing the heavens, who had > > after observing for centuries, and through their intellect , developed > > so much analytical powers that even modern day astrologers like me can > > make use of their findings and talk. What more further proof is > > required ? I can also give geographical proof to a worthy and actual > > serious enquirist who is unbiased. But otherwise would not like to > > fritter this knowledge for the sake of some people who may wish to > > collect this, and write a book in their name, and sell it for money . > > But if I show someone a place and tell him that this existed in 2,50000 > > BC, then how many will be able to test this , how many will have the > > capacity and apparatus to test this. Or are they going to take the > > bricks for Carbon testing ? For being accessible to such knowledge one > > has to be a worthy and unsuspecting invitee who must not have any qualms > > of prejudices of " My country " or " Your country " etc. > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@ > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Vinay > > > you say: > > > ''and some concepts of astrology an be traced back torock paintings of > > even 30000 BC'' > > > So these torock paintings exist, can be viewed and were first > > discovered in India? > > > Is there any other physical evidence in India to show recording of > > planets or constellations? Pyramids, stone circles, caves with paintings > > on the wall, or any other structures at all which demonstrate an ancient > > Indian system of observing the heavens pre 250,000 BC? > > > best wishes > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:13 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > > > > Fine question by Margie. The answer formed gist of my lecture at > > Kalidasa Academy in April 2008 titled " Contribution of Indian Astrology > > To the World Astrology " (in Hindi). The article, in Hindi, can be read > > in full at my website. Here I can offer only a brief answer, which may > > not satisfy readers. > > > > > > Indian Jyotisha is regarded as a Vedaanga (part of Veda). Since Vedas > > are said to be composed after 1500 BC, its part cannot predate it. But > > proofs of astrology with 12 house concept and other paraphernalia > > existed in ancient civilizations around 3000 BC, and some concepts of > > astrology an be traced back torock paintings of even 30000 BC. Hence, > > the very topic " Contribution of Indian Astrology... " is meaningless, > > unless we prove that the dating of Vedas should be advanced > > considerably. This was how I introduced the topic, and then discussed > > the unscientific method of comparative linguistics of 19th century > > linguists. I devoted 12 years in this field. I found no concrete > > evidence in favour of dating of the Vedas, only opinions were forwarded. > > Rgvedic society was believed to be a pastoral one, and was therefore > > held to be at par with Greeks at the time of Battle of Troy, which was > > the earliest known historical event in the West. Hence, 1200 BC was said > > to > > > be the mean date of Rgveda. But when Michael Ventris proved that > > Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilization around the middle of 2nd > > millenium BC, it proved that their pastoral ancestors must have lived > > befor 2000 BC. Taking into account the presence of Harappan > > civilization, Rgvedic civilization could not be possible after 3000 BC, > > if the logic of 19th century linguists was to be applied. > > > > > > Then, I applied the methods of modern linguistics, and assuming that > > we do not know which IE branch was more archaic I applied equal > > weightage to all major IE branches, and took statistical averages for > > all consonants and vowels separately, and to my surprize found that the > > PIE etymon exactly copied the Vedic form in almost all cases !!! > > > > > > Such a result contradicted the prevalent opinion. I had no doubt in > > the accuracy of my results, because I checked it again and again for > > years. For one month, I was profoundly disturbed. Then I decided to > > carry on my research into historical semantics, and unexpectedly arrived > > at far more bizarre conclusions. For instance, there is no root for > > " brother " in any IE language. In the Rgveda, bhraatr and its derivatives > > occur 33 times. At 32 places, it means " Sun " . At 33th instance, it is > > used for 'Yama', who is a son of Sun as well as a brother of Yami. That > > is why ancient grammarians deduced bhraatr from the root bhraash which > > meant " to shine " . the meaning " brother " was a later development, a > > Laukika (worldly) usage. > > > > > > Similarly, Agni was derived from a root which meant " to move > > tortuously " . The Vedic god Agni was believed to move tortuously to all > > worlds, and was therefore believed to fetch oblations to all gods, and > > was therefore eulogized as the real purohita. When works were being > > formed out of roots, physical " fire " was absent, social " brother " was > > absent. Only divine terms and meanings were present. Does it mean that > > Veda preceded society and world ??? Atheists will laugh at such ideas, > > but all ancient grammarians believed so. > > > > > > Instead of proving my views, I have put forth the problem. Solve it. > > > > > > Now come to the second proble. The concept of 12 astrological houses > > existed in all ancient civilizations, from China and India to Sumer and > > Egypt. In most societies, even their names had similar meanings and > > significances. It points to some common origins. Where is that common > > origin??? > > > > > > Lagna (ascendant) is defined as the rising point of ec loptic at > > eastern horizon. it symbolizes Body and worldy life. opposite is 7th > > house, which signifies Kaama (libido). Nishkaama state gives the state > > of Videha, and Kaama gives bondage into Deha (flesh). Both have cause : > > consequence relation. > > > > > > 2nd house is maarkesh, cause of death, and opposite is Death (8th > > house). Aparigraha and Indriya-nigraha gives deliverance from Death, > > while wealth and sensory pleasures lead to death. Hence, senses and > > wealth are related to maarkesh. > > > > > > 3rd house is paraakrama (valour, vigour) and opposite is the result ; > > bhaagya (Fortune). > > > > > > At the foot lies Earth, the mother, and vehicle also lies below the > > rider. Hence, 4th house is below. 10th house is heaven, Father, glory, > > and the consequence of Land(4th house) in the form of State and Power. > > > > > > 5th house is Vidyaa (knowledge) and opposite is its consequence : > > > income / profit. 6thy house is enemy or disease and opposite is its > > > result : loss. > > > > > > Thus, all 12 houses have cause : consequence relation between > > contrasting and opposite houses. There is a discernible logical design > > behind the concept of 12 houses, and this logic was present in the > > common origin wherefrom this concept spread to other lands. > > > > > > The source of this common origin is not difficult to discern. As shown > > above, the philosophy of Deha versus Kaama, and Videha versus Nishkaama > > underlied the concepts behind first and seventh houses. Similarly, the > > ideas of sensory pleasures and wealth being related to cause of death > > and renunciation as a means of liberation from the cycles of death and > > birth was behind the idea of 2nd and 8th houses. Such a philosophy > > existed only in India. We cannot find such philosophies elesewhere. > > > > > > Now come to the third point : Why physical remains are not found in > > India. There are two causes . Their is no dearth of physical remains > > related to non-Vedic but hindu (ie, Asuric) cultures, but there is a > > lack of political will to accept the truth. For instance, the state > > symbol of Magadha was solar chakra consisting of 24 spokes as 24 ritus. > > It was adopted by Buddhism, and came to be known as Dhamma-chakka, > > whence modern India adopted it as its emblem. These " experts " > > deliberately forget that all punched-marked coins of Magadha right from > > earliest times contain this sun sign. The concept of 24 ritus is Vedic. > > But the second cause is more profound, and less marked. Real experts of > > Vedic astrology used Suryasiddhanta whose planets differed from those of > > physical astronomy and were believed to be deities , ie conscious > > elements. Deities could not be seen through human eyes. Hence there was > > no need of any observatory & c. But Drikpakshiya astronomy was not > > > unknown, although it was not used in astrology by most astrologers. > > > > > > It is a mere summary, which will not satisfy many readers. the proof > > of Indian astrology is neither logical discussion nor correlation with > > physical astronomy, but predictive astrology, which is highly precise if > > Suryasiddhantic mathematics is followed. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9@ > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 6:42:05 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Thankyou for your reply Vinay, you are so obviously an expert on many > > cultures. Perhaps you can help me with a query? > > > As you know there are signs all over the planet of star and moon > > watching by ancient civilisations, and even astrological practise which > > are constantly being rediscovered by archaeology. For instance in > > Ireland there are caves thought to be inhabited circa 5000 BC which show > > careful calculations of moon phases and star knowledge. We know the > > Egyptians have star diagrams due to the engravings and paintings on > > pyramid walls possible circa 2500BC and beyond. Reindeer and mammoth > > tusks found on mainland Europe over 25,000 years old are known to have > > notches on them which represent the phases of the moon. > > > Yet I have no knowledge of anything similar being found in India, > > which is odd when so many believe astrology was founded there don't you > > think? > > > I wonder if you know where in India there is similar physical evidence > > of very early observation of the sky, not in a book, but actual > > geographically located physical evidence of early skywatching? I would > > really appreciate knowing this > > > thanks > > > M > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:51 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > No. Modern India still preserves the archaic culture and religion to a > > great extent, but modern Greece or Iran or Egypt or Mesopotamia contain > > only relics of the past. China officially disowns its cultural roots, > > and does nor preserve pre-Confucian or pre-Buddhist culture. India is an > > exception. Not even 1% of modern Indians fully adhere to the ancient > > ways, but millions try to adhere to ancient norms... > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:10:56 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Similarly modern Indians :-) > > > - > > > Vinay Jha > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 11:13 AM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Modern Iranians cannot be said to represent the ancient Babylonians > > culturally. > > > -VJ > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:22:07 PM > > > Re: Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > Dear R > > > I think the Babylonians aka Persians aka Iranians are still delivering > > readings? > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 3:21 AM > > > Greeks vs Indians <HOLY JEUS!> > > > > > > How many Babylonians are still giving astrology readings to those who > > need same? > > > > > > How many Indians (by birth, soul-connections or otherwise!) are doing > > the same? > > > > > > Case closed? > > > > > > For me it is! Karma = Action (not speeches and pontifications! ) > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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