Law of Karma

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all .

 

advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote: " The

surrender is actually the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs

belong to the Lord alone. "

 

Dear Smt Durgaji,

 

The surrender is actually the understanding, that it is the

LORD ALONE who appears as body/mind , sense organs and prANa etc.,

since The Lord is sarvagataH / sarvavyApI according to Sruti. The

correct and final understanding is " Besides the LORD there is no ' me'

existing as a second entity " .

 

With respectful regards to SELF appearing as Durga,

SELF appearing as Sreenivasa Murthy

 

P.S :- This is not a play of words. It is the ACTUAL FACT (vastusthiti)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is rather doing an action, with an expected result in mind, but

recognizing that the result is not in my hands.

 

 

praNAms

 

 

Hare krishna

 

 

IMHO, there is a subtle difference between 'hoping the result in

anticipation and taking it as Ishwara prasAda' and 'taking the result as it

comes as Ishwara prasAda'...Expecting a result to our action inadventently

leads to attachment to that result & finally leads to shOka, mOha...Hence

bhagavan advised us to do ONLY karma without expecting the result 'on our'

own!! (karmaNyeva adhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana) Elsewhere bhagavan

says poor & wretched are those who are instrumental in making their actions

bear fruit (krupaNAH phala hetavaH) and those who renounce the fruit of

action would have an equipoised mind (karmajaM buddhiyuktA hi phalaM

tyaktvA manIshiNaha)..krishna advises arjuna to do karma by establishing

himself in yOga by renouncing the attachment (expectation) to phala

(yOgasthaH kuru karmANi saNgaM tyaktvA dhanunjaya)...So, if we really

realize that result is not in my control and it is left to Ishwara, then it

is better to have no expectation from our karma-s...If we do our karma with

an expectation of a favourable result (yes!! most of the time our

expectation would be at the positive side) and if anything goes wrong at

the end of the show, our mind will not be in a position to accept it as it

comes, because we have already fed a positive result in expectation!! For

example, if I stay late night at office & doing all the hard work,

expecting a favourable result in my position & CTC, during the process of

that hard work at late nights, without my knowledge I cling to the expected

result..at the end of the year, if my boss turn a blue face on my

performance, what would be the state of my mind which is expecting a

favourable result all through the year :-)) Instead of this attitude, I

would suggest my self to work for works sake dont expect anything from

anybody...if anything comes through as a result, let it come, let me not

attach to that result !! When we do karma-s like this without an iota of

expectation of the result, then it is called karma phala saNyAsa..In other

words shankara calls karma yOgi as saNyAsi since he detached himself from

the results of his action (karma phala saMkalpta saNyAsa)..In the chapter

6, 1st verse shanakara clarifies : karmaphala saMkalpa saNyAsAt

saNyAsitvaM, yOgAngatvena cha karmAnushTAnAt, karmaphala saMkalpasya cha

chittavikshepahetOH parityAgAt yOgitvaM cha..shankara says here karmayOgi

is just like both saMnyAsi & yOgi...becuase he has already renounced the

'karmaphala saMkalpa* which is the cause of " chitta vikshEpa " !!

 

 

So, I onceagain stress the point that one should not attach to his result

in expectation, this would be a hindrance to take the outcome of the action

as Ishwara prasAda..

 

 

Having said all these, I must confess here that I work late night at office

in anticipation of some favour from my top management!! I am still a karmi

not a karma yOgi :-)) Atleast here in this list I should be true to myself

:-))

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Durga-ji.

 

You said:

 

> The surrender is actually

> the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs

> belong to the Lord alone.

 

I am in total agreement. In fact, I would say that that understanding also

belongs to the Lord, that each moment that manifests before me is the Lord alone

and that, in reality, I have no control over what is happening, although I have

a seeming free-will to make my choices like deciding to drink a glass of water

when I am thirsty (the example quoted by you).

 

But, if we aren't reopening that dreaded topic of fate and free-will, will you

please permit me to express a doubt? It is about the simile of Kathopanishad

where the body is likened to a chariot, the sense organs to the horses that pull

it and the mind/intellect to its charioteer with the jIvAtma as the traveller

(swAmi). (This simile is dealt with in detail in 'Jiva Yatra' by Smt. Lakshmi

Muthuswami-ji, which is available in our file section.) If the body, mind and

sense organs belong to the Lord alone, as you say, and if everything is the Lord

as I extend it, then what exactly is the relevance of the above likening?

 

I have no choice about the dreams I dream and I have no choice about what

happens next in the sense that a cataclysm might obliterate me from the face of

this globe any moment. Against such a scenario, why is the Upanishad labouring

so hard with a simile where an insignificant intellect is granted the grand role

of the charioteer? Why is a jIvAtma so laboriously erected in order to equate

it ultimately with the paramAtma through tatwamasi? Isn't this jIvAtma

aggrandisement counter-productive to Advaita?

 

I may read a thousand books, listen to scores of great teachers, aspire for an

unquenchable thirst for liberation. But, whether I become a good mumukShu and

attain my goal is still in the hands of the Lord, chariot and charioteer

notwithstanding. This may sound like absolute fatalism. But, isn't it the

truth?

 

In that sense, isn't the intelligent surrender envisioned above real liberation?

The surrender is also not mine; it is the Lord's! Isn't it real Advaita where

the Lord alone remains?

 

The thirst is the Lord; the glass of water and the quenching of the thirst too

is the Lord. In fact, there is no duality anywhere in this world of the Lord,

which is the Lord through and through. That is *an understanding as well as an

experience* to be lived.

 

This is what I wanted to say to Peterji in answer to his 44521. At the height of

such surrender, there is no divide between empirical experience and brahmajnAna.

Duality morphs into the non-dual which it has always been but for that stupid

erstwhile ego (ahamkAra) which now has fallen at the Feet of the Lord as an

offered sanguine petal.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms Sri Pai prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

For non-dvija-s ( the group which is not supposed to wear yagnOpaveeta)

also there is a means to get the elightenment!! though traditionally it is

said that they donot have the adhikAra to do sandhyavandana, agnihOtra,

vedAdhyayana etc. , they can reach the ultimate goal through manana &

nidhidhyAsana on smruti & purANa texts...For them also there is a

prescribed injunctions in our dharma shAstra-s, that they ought to follow

as their svadharma...But here the context of the discussion pertains to

those who underwent upanayana saMskAra (dvija-s) and later on giving all

sorts of explanations to skip their nitya & naimittika karma-s...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

PS : when you are addressing the mail to the group, kindly avoid appending

marketing messages ( which I found at the tail of your query)...No need to

mention this is against list policy...Just a friendly caution from your

'shreyObhilAshi' before moderators jumping on your mail...

 

 

[Guest guest]

praNAms thollmelukaalkizhu prabhuji

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

If we think we are in bondage, then yes, it is through effort that we get

out of such thinking, and that is indeed liberation. I don't see the need

to belittle it or the process.

 

 

> Yes, sAdhana is very much necessary as long as we are identifying

ourselves as sAdhaka-s / mumukshu-s, there is no question of belittling the

efficacy of the sAdhana by any stretch of imagination here...But fact

remains that this sAdhana is required to 'know' that what I am already and

sAdhana cannot bring us any set of new dimensions to the ever existing Atma

svarUpa.

 

 

As for karma-kanda, dharma, etc., they also apply to us as the means to

liberation. Of course, they may not be sufficient by themselves and need to

be followed by jnana-marga. But as I understand the sampradaya does not

undermine karma-marga by suggesting it does not lead to liberation. It does

part of the way, but it needs to be followed up.

 

 

> I am in complete agreement with you prabhuji...Even those who opted for

nivrutti mArga would not undermine the role of karma in jnAna mArga...it is

because of that reason only I think even today we are seeing shata rudra,

ati rudra mahAyAga, chandi hOma etc. etc. at the advaita matha-s like

shrungeri, kanchi etc. that too under the supervision & encouragement from

peeTAdhipati-s!!!

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Madathil Rajendran Nair " <madathilnair

wrote:

 

>

> In that sense, isn't the intelligent surrender envisioned above real

liberation? The surrender is also not mine; it is the Lord's! Isn't it real

Advaita where the Lord alone remains?

>

> The thirst is the Lord; the glass of water and the quenching of the thirst too

is the Lord. In fact, there is no duality anywhere in this world of the Lord,

which is the Lord through and through. That is *an understanding as well as an

experience* to be lived.

>

> This is what I wanted to say to Peterji in answer to his 44521. At the height

of such surrender, there is no divide between empirical experience and

brahmajnAna. Duality morphs into the non-dual which it has always been but for

that stupid erstwhile ego (ahamkAra) which now has fallen at the Feet of the

Lord as an offered sanguine petal.

>

> Best regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

 

Namaste Sri Nairji,

 

I don't know the answer to your question, but I have

enjoyed all of the posts which replied to my post,

especially yours, Sri Murthyji's and Sri Bhaskarji's.

 

I have been thinking about what everyone has written,

what my teacher has said on various occasions, and what

Swami Dayanandaji has said, and the only conclusion

I've come to is that Vedanta offers us various

explanations all along the way of our journey.

 

When we think we are a jiva, Vedanta offers us

a way to be in dialogue and relationship with

the Lord. We come to see the world around us

as His glory, and every piece of it is a manifestation

his intelligence displaying a perfect order. If this is so,

then how can any part of 'me' be separate from that

order?

 

Then perhaps we recognize, " Oh, I am that brahman

unchanging, " and perhaps later, we recognize, " All

of this manifestation is brahman alone. "

 

All along the way Vedanta provides us with exquisite

ways of understanding.

 

As my teacher once famously quoted one of Swami Dayanandaji's

swamis as saying, " You never get tired of listening to

Vedanta. It's like looking at your face in a mirror. "

 

And that is the way I feel.

 

Pranams,

Durga

[Guest guest]

bhaskar ji :

 

when karma is performed either voluntarily or involuntarily with an expectation

or without an expectation,there is always a phalam out of karma regardless with

an equanimity of mind.

 

suresh.

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> It is rather doing an action, with an expected result in mind, but

> recognizing that the result is not in my hands.

>

>

> praNAms

>

>

> Hare krishna

>

>

> IMHO, there is a subtle difference between 'hoping the result in

> anticipation and taking it as Ishwara prasAda' and 'taking the result as it

> comes as Ishwara prasAda'...Expecting a result to our action inadventently

> leads to attachment to that result & finally leads to shOka, mOha...Hence

> bhagavan advised us to do ONLY karma without expecting the result 'on our'

> own!! (karmaNyeva adhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana) Elsewhere bhagavan

> says poor & wretched are those who are instrumental in making their actions

> bear fruit (krupaNAH phala hetavaH) and those who renounce the fruit of

> action would have an equipoised mind (karmajaM buddhiyuktA hi phalaM

> tyaktvA manIshiNaha)..krishna advises arjuna to do karma by establishing

> himself in yOga by renouncing the attachment (expectation) to phala

> (yOgasthaH kuru karmANi saNgaM tyaktvA dhanunjaya)...So, if we really

> realize that result is not in my control and it is left to Ishwara, then it

> is better to have no expectation from our karma-s...If we do our karma with

> an expectation of a favourable result (yes!! most of the time our

> expectation would be at the positive side) and if anything goes wrong at

> the end of the show, our mind will not be in a position to accept it as it

> comes, because we have already fed a positive result in expectation!! For

> example, if I stay late night at office & doing all the hard work,

> expecting a favourable result in my position & CTC, during the process of

> that hard work at late nights, without my knowledge I cling to the expected

> result..at the end of the year, if my boss turn a blue face on my

> performance, what would be the state of my mind which is expecting a

> favourable result all through the year :-)) Instead of this attitude, I

> would suggest my self to work for works sake dont expect anything from

> anybody...if anything comes through as a result, let it come, let me not

> attach to that result !! When we do karma-s like this without an iota of

> expectation of the result, then it is called karma phala saNyAsa..In other

> words shankara calls karma yOgi as saNyAsi since he detached himself from

> the results of his action (karma phala saMkalpta saNyAsa)..In the chapter

> 6, 1st verse shanakara clarifies : karmaphala saMkalpa saNyAsAt

> saNyAsitvaM, yOgAngatvena cha karmAnushTAnAt, karmaphala saMkalpasya cha

> chittavikshepahetOH parityAgAt yOgitvaM cha..shankara says here karmayOgi

> is just like both saMnyAsi & yOgi...becuase he has already renounced the

> 'karmaphala saMkalpa* which is the cause of " chitta vikshEpa " !!

>

>

> So, I onceagain stress the point that one should not attach to his result

> in expectation, this would be a hindrance to take the outcome of the action

> as Ishwara prasAda..

>

>

> Having said all these, I must confess here that I work late night at office

> in anticipation of some favour from my top management!! I am still a karmi

> not a karma yOgi :-)) Atleast here in this list I should be true to myself

> :-))

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

bhaskar ji :

 

when karma is performed either voluntarily or involuntarily with an

expectation or without an expectation,there is always a phalam out of karma

regardless with an equanimity of mind.

 

suresh.

 

 

praNAms

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

Yes, every action done in a kartru bhAva (doership) would invariably bear

the fruit (karma phala)...nobody can change this prakruti niyama..But what

karma yOga advise us to practise is 'dont get attached yourself to the

outcome of this action' and dont expect anything in return to your action,

just do karma for karma's sake...the action done with that attitude donot

have any bearing on the mind of the kartru..No doubt, to discharge this

'actionless' action requires a special skill, which one has to cultivate

through viveka & vairAgya...

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear bhaskar,

 

Pranams,

 

The *special skill* what you have mentioned is the crux of the problem. To

achieve that is what is all the sadhana about...

 

regs,

sriram

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> bhaskar ji :

>

> when karma is performed either voluntarily or involuntarily with an

> expectation or without an expectation,there is always a phalam out of karma

> regardless with an equanimity of mind.

>

> suresh.

>

>

> praNAms

>

>

> Hare Krishna

>

>

> Yes, every action done in a kartru bhAva (doership) would invariably bear

> the fruit (karma phala)...nobody can change this prakruti niyama..But what

> karma yOga advise us to practise is 'dont get attached yourself to the

> outcome of this action' and dont expect anything in return to your action,

> just do karma for karma's sake...the action done with that attitude donot

> have any bearing on the mind of the kartru..No doubt, to discharge this

> 'actionless' action requires a special skill, which one has to cultivate

> through viveka & vairAgya...

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

The *special skill* what you have mentioned is the crux of the problem. To

achieve that is what is all the sadhana about...

 

 

praNAms Sri Sriram prabhuji

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

Yes, that sAdhana involves nitya & naimittika karmAnushTAna, upAsana,

devatArchana etc. etc. Without knowing this simple truth, we are ready to

quote scriptures just to convince ourselves that what we are doing is

'right' !!! Skipping the scriptural injunctions with the help of scriptural

quotes :-))...Does H.H. shrungeri peetAdhipati not know that what he is

worshipping (shArada mAta & chandramouleeshwara) is not the God!! Does

kanchi peetAdhipati not aware that presiding deity 'kAmAkshi' at kanchi is

not strictly god as per shruti :-)) Though they have formally taken sarva

karma saMnyAsa, why they, even today, religiously observing the rituals

like pooja, abhisheka, hOma, havana etc. etc.?? Can we say they do not

aware of this kenOpanishad maNtra and hence engaging themselves in

meaningless rituals :-)) See, how, we modern day advaitins using our

scirptural knowledge to live in our own comfort zone :-)) We donot realize

the simple fact that despite taking saMnyAsa & doing brahma jignAsa 24X7,

our peetAdhipati-s still performing pooja to the deity which is not God as

per shruti!!?? ...Whereas, we the ordinary gruhasta-s, citing all excuses &

showing our scriptural skills to avoid the unavoidable :-)) IMO, it is

really an ominous development in the name of non-duality & its practice!!

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear bhaskar,

 

Pranams.

 

This is a short piece of article published by me elsewhere in other forum.

However, i am reproducing this as the relevant topic of the upasana at amnaya

mutts of Acharya Sankara has come up.

 

Acharya Sankara in the 2nd Adhyaya of Brahmasutra Bhashya says:

 

" apratyAkhyAyaina kAryaprapancham, parinamaprakriyam cha shrayati

saguneshupasaneshupayoshya te iti " .

 

Also, in the 1st adhyaya for the sutra " tad adhInatvA darthavat " , Acharya

Sankara explains the principle of Sakti to be the upAdana kAraNa for

paramEshwara in the Creation.

 

Acharya Sankara says that it is the Parinamavada which is to be adopted to

achieve the Sagunopasana Siddhi and *not* for kArya-prapancha (jagat) siddhi.

Afterall, one cannnot worship Nirguna Brahman.

 

Acharya Sankara in his sutra bhashya, exhorts us to adopt the parinamavada

(theory of transformaton) for the purpose of saguna upasana which is the upasana

of maya-sabala brahman where the substratum is Brahman only.

 

When the upasana is ripe, and upon the dawn of right knowledge, the " reality "

which the " ignorant " people perceive WOULD BECOME an " illusion " . So, this is

what is the Vivartavada. So, there is absolutely no conflict among vivartavada

and parinamavada. The statements of Vivartavada are the statements of the people

who have realised the Substratum " Brahman " . For them, the Jagat is Mithya but

NOT for we common people.

 

It is the Saguna Upasana in the form of Maya-Sabala Brahma that has to be

adopted which paves the way for ultimate Realisation *Brahma Satyam Jagat

Mithya*.

 

Shri Bhaskararaya Makhin in his commentary on Lalitha Sahasranama while

commenting on " mithyAjagadadhiShThAna " , refers the two nyayas: sukti-rajata and

mrid-ghata nyaya thereby draws a common line among the two schools : vivartavada

& parinamavada.

 

Shri Bhaskara says that there are two concepts called " maya " and " mithya " .

Mithya is that which gets nullified upon the dawn of right knowledge and maya is

that which is existant as well as non-existant. So, Mithya is the by-product of

Maya. Maya and Ishwara are inseparable where ishwara is nimitta karana and maya

is the upadana karana. The mixture of both maya and ishwara is what is called as

" mithya " which is Jagat.

 

Parinamavada says that it is this Maya which is otherwise called Sakti that got

transformed itself into Jagat in the form of 36 principles.

 

Shri Bhaskaraya, explaining this Parinamavada says that one doesn't become a

*dvaita* if one adopts the parinamavada, per se, and perceives the substratum of

this 36 principles of creation to be Sakti which is Maya-sabala-Brahman. In

parinamavada Sakti is non-different from Jagat and the upasaka of this school

perceive the Jagat to be siva-sakyatmaka. For him, the *concept of jagat* ceases

as jagat, per se, but is perceived as " sarvam sakti mayam jagat " .

 

Shri Bhaskara does not stop here. He further says that followers of Vivarta

school, perceive the Brahman instead of perceiving the Jagat, per se. For them

the *illusion* of Jagat ceases to be Jagat but is perceived as *Brahaman* which

is " sarvam khalvidam brahma " .

 

SO, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONFLICT AMONG VIVARTAVADIS AND PARINAMAVADIS.

 

There is abolutely no-difference and no conflict in perceiving the Jagat either

as " sakti-mayam " or " Brahma-mayam " ie., parinamavada and vivartavada. Both are 2

sides of the same coin.

 

So, i firmly believe that the Amnaya Pithadhipatis have absolutely no conflict

in what they believe and what they practice. Even if they worship the Saguna

Brahman, It is the substratum on which they

firmly place their vision.

 

 

With regards,

Sriram

 

 

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> The *special skill* what you have mentioned is the crux of the problem. To

> achieve that is what is all the sadhana about...

>

>

> praNAms Sri Sriram prabhuji

>

>

> Hare Krishna

>

>

> Yes, that sAdhana involves nitya & naimittika karmAnushTAna, upAsana,

> devatArchana etc. etc. Without knowing this simple truth, we are ready to

> quote scriptures just to convince ourselves that what we are doing is

> 'right' !!! Skipping the scriptural injunctions with the help of scriptural

> quotes :-))...Does H.H. shrungeri peetAdhipati not know that what he is

> worshipping (shArada mAta & chandramouleeshwara) is not the God!! Does

> kanchi peetAdhipati not aware that presiding deity 'kAmAkshi' at kanchi is

> not strictly god as per shruti :-)) Though they have formally taken sarva

> karma saMnyAsa, why they, even today, religiously observing the rituals

> like pooja, abhisheka, hOma, havana etc. etc.?? Can we say they do not

> aware of this kenOpanishad maNtra and hence engaging themselves in

> meaningless rituals :-)) See, how, we modern day advaitins using our

> scirptural knowledge to live in our own comfort zone :-)) We donot realize

> the simple fact that despite taking saMnyAsa & doing brahma jignAsa 24X7,

> our peetAdhipati-s still performing pooja to the deity which is not God as

> per shruti!!?? ...Whereas, we the ordinary gruhasta-s, citing all excuses &

> showing our scriptural skills to avoid the unavoidable :-)) IMO, it is

> really an ominous development in the name of non-duality & its practice!!

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

bhaskar ji :

 

for me this is a virtually an impossibility,as i was a karmi while in the womb

of my mother,utilising her senses,for my well being.from the age of 0-13,prolly

i was doing karma without any expectations.but i know i changed from age,13 till

now.i breathe in and breathe out oxygen and carbon di oxide to stay alive,as a

praani.so,karmam,is an involuntary manifestation for the jeevi,imho.so,we will

have a phalam,whether we like it or not.maybe my spiritual journey is at this

stage,dunno.but i am happy to think like this for now.who knows maybe i will

reach that stage of ,not expecting anything from karma.but thanks for your

patient explanations.

 

suresh.

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> bhaskar ji :

>

> when karma is performed either voluntarily or involuntarily with an

> expectation or without an expectation,there is always a phalam out of karma

> regardless with an equanimity of mind.

>

> suresh.

>

>

> praNAms

>

>

> Hare Krishna

>

>

> Yes, every action done in a kartru bhAva (doership) would invariably bear

> the fruit (karma phala)...nobody can change this prakruti niyama..But what

> karma yOga advise us to practise is 'dont get attached yourself to the

> outcome of this action' and dont expect anything in return to your action,

> just do karma for karma's sake...the action done with that attitude donot

> have any bearing on the mind of the kartru..No doubt, to discharge this

> 'actionless' action requires a special skill, which one has to cultivate

> through viveka & vairAgya...

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

bhaskar ji :

 

i think you have cited a very valid development amongst bhakthas

today.yes,sadhanas are extremely important.

 

suresh.

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> The *special skill* what you have mentioned is the crux of the problem. To

> achieve that is what is all the sadhana about...

>

>

> praNAms Sri Sriram prabhuji

>

>

> Hare Krishna

>

>

> Yes, that sAdhana involves nitya & naimittika karmAnushTAna, upAsana,

> devatArchana etc. etc. Without knowing this simple truth, we are ready to

> quote scriptures just to convince ourselves that what we are doing is

> 'right' !!! Skipping the scriptural injunctions with the help of scriptural

> quotes :-))...Does H.H. shrungeri peetAdhipati not know that what he is

> worshipping (shArada mAta & chandramouleeshwara) is not the God!! Does

> kanchi peetAdhipati not aware that presiding deity 'kAmAkshi' at kanchi is

> not strictly god as per shruti :-)) Though they have formally taken sarva

> karma saMnyAsa, why they, even today, religiously observing the rituals

> like pooja, abhisheka, hOma, havana etc. etc.?? Can we say they do not

> aware of this kenOpanishad maNtra and hence engaging themselves in

> meaningless rituals :-)) See, how, we modern day advaitins using our

> scirptural knowledge to live in our own comfort zone :-)) We donot realize

> the simple fact that despite taking saMnyAsa & doing brahma jignAsa 24X7,

> our peetAdhipati-s still performing pooja to the deity which is not God as

> per shruti!!?? ...Whereas, we the ordinary gruhasta-s, citing all excuses &

> showing our scriptural skills to avoid the unavoidable :-)) IMO, it is

> really an ominous development in the name of non-duality & its practice!!

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

PranAms,

Swami Paramarthananda-ji puts it beautifully when he says

 

Karmayoga without jnAna is incomplete, but,

Jnana without karmayoga is impossible.

 

There is no question that karmayoga is verily the boat that can steer us towards

the banks of MokshA and this has been adequately stressed by both Bhagwan

Krishna and Shankara repeatedly.

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> praNAms Sri MN prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

...So, here in this scenario of various spiritual

> practices, it is been said that karma is not the direct means and sarva

> karma saNyAsa is needed to persue jnAna mArga..shruti also says na karmaNa,

> na prajaya dhanena tyAgEnaike amrutatva mAnashuhu..etc.

[Guest guest]

PranAms Bhaskar-ji

 

I thought I might clarify the context of what Durga-ji's teacher is correctly

pointing out.

 

If I absentmindedly scracth my elbow one lazy Sunday morning, it is certainly an

action that is without any expectation of a result. In fact it is verily

" aim " less. The question is - does such aimless activity qualify as karmayoga.

COuld the prescription for our spiritual upliftment and achievemnt of mental

equipoise possibly be a lifelong indulgence in " aim " less pursuits? I would think

not.

 

The point to be noted here is not that one performs a action without a desire

for a result but without any attachment for the outcome - be it positive or

negative. Krishna exhorts Arjuna to " Stand up and Fight " - for what -

definitely with a desire for victory alone. Then how is it karmayoga? what then

is meant by " ma phaleshu kadachana " It has to do with the sankalpa - the motive

- Arjuna's picking up his bow and shooting his arrows not for his own personal

victory or to settle a personal score but as his role as an instrument to

safeguard dharma, to discharge his duty in keeping with his role in society

based on his varna and ashrama. So the sankalpa for Arjuna, and for us, to

discharge our duties not for " myself " preetyartham but " parameshwara

preetyartham " ..and so the prayer is for durita kshaya..so the obstacles may not

hinder or hamper our efforts - for we do want that action to bear fruit...not

for our personal gain, but so we serve as an effective instrument, and maintain

a prasada-buddhi - a pleasant disposition to whatever the result may be as

verily a Gift from the Lord, which as the karmaphaladata it always is!

So if you are working late nights for a personal gain/bonus/recognition, then of

course it is not karmayoga. :-)

But if you are working late nights on a project you want to successfully

complete because you see it as your duty, your offering, towards Ishwara and as

such you want to give it your all, with the express aim that it be successful,

then that is in essence karmayoga - yoga karmasu kausalam...

 

For more on this in detail -

 

http://poornamadam.blogspot.com/2007/02/teachings-of-bhagawad-gita-karmayoga.htm\

l

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> It is rather doing an action, with an expected result in mind, but

> recognizing that the result is not in my hands.

>

>

> praNAms

>

>

> Hare krishna

>

>

> IMHO, there is a subtle difference between 'hoping the result in

> anticipation and taking it as Ishwara prasAda' and 'taking the result as it

> comes as Ishwara prasAda'...Expecting a result to our action inadventently

> leads to attachment to that result & finally leads to shOka, mOha...Hence

> bhagavan advised us to do ONLY karma without expecting the result 'on our'

> own!! (karmaNyeva adhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana) Elsewhere bhagavan

> says poor & wretched are those who are instrumental in making their actions

> bear fruit (krupaNAH phala hetavaH) and those who renounce the fruit of

> action would have an equipoised mind (karmajaM buddhiyuktA hi phalaM

> tyaktvA manIshiNaha)..krishna advises arjuna to do karma by establishing

[Guest guest]

PranAms Nair-ji

Let me share my understanding.

When we talk of surrender, we are talking about two entities by default - a

surrenderer and a recipient thereof.

 

The Lord, Parameshwara, is all-pervading. He is the Whole. So there is no

question of his surrendering - to whom?> and of what>?

 

Now in this Whole Infinite there is no room for another entity. But

unfortunately, due ot beginningless avidyA, there is this seeming entity with a

limited i-sense who harbors a notional sense of separation from the whole. Who

is this entity - it is, as you point out - the ahankara-ridden jivAtma. The very

opening lines of that particular section of the Katha Upanishad(Valli 3) that

you are referring to, start with " rtam pibantau sukrtasya loke... " - here the

Upanishad seemingly admits to there being two entities - the jivAtma and the

paramAtma. But immediately as if to clarify the Upanishad itself uses the term

chayatapau - they are of the nature of light and shadow - i.e one is Satyam and

the other is Mithya.

 

Now what could a mithyA entity jivAtmA possibly surrender to the Sat - the

paramAtma - one and only one thing - its own ignorance. The self-ignorance of

the jivAtmA is wholely and solely its own - for Ishwara, there is never any

ignorance........so the surrender is always the jivA's and the surrender

involves one and only one thing - himself or herself - in the sense of dropping

or surrendering his notional sense of separation, that crystallizes in an

understanding of its innate non-separateness from the Whole - poornamasya

poornamadaya poornamevavashishyate...

 

So in this context, the rathakalpana makes perfecft sense...the chariot, the

horses, etc are all of course gifts from the Lord - and as Lord Krishna tells

Arjuna - " yatha icchasi tatha kuru " - " Do as you please " ....we can either take

the route of pravrtti and suffer innumerable births and deaths in the samsaric

cycle or we can take the path of nivrtti and attain to release.

 

In the eyes of the Lord, you, and me are fullness, you, and me, are the Whole -

it is " my " notion of limitaion, that is purely limited to me the jivA, that

alone leads with " my " viveka, to " my " sense of mumukshutvam, which alone leads

to " my " moksha - all the 'my's are of course notional alone! So it is me, the

dehatmabuddhi-ridden ahankara-borne jivA who feels wedded to the chariot, which

in reality belongs to the Lord, but its ownership now having been

misappropraited onto myself - hence alone now is it my explicit concern - about

the direction of the horses and hence i alone have to decide where to go and how

to steer the reins....the rules of travel, the abililty of the horses, the

strength of the reins, and the roadmaps have all been laid out by the Lord of

course.

 

Hari OM

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

Shyam

 

advaitin , " Madathil Rajendran Nair " <madathilnair

wrote:

>

> Namaste Durga-ji.

> But, if we aren't reopening that dreaded topic of fate and free-will, will you

please permit me to express a doubt? It is about the simile of Kathopanishad

where the body is likened to a chariot, the sense organs to the horses that pull

it and the mind/intellect to its charioteer with the jIvAtma as the traveller

(swAmi). (This simile is dealt with in detail in 'Jiva Yatra' by Smt. Lakshmi

Muthuswami-ji, which is available in our file section.) If the body, mind and

sense organs belong to the Lord alone, as you say, and if everything is the Lord

as I extend it, then what exactly is the relevance of the above likening?

>

> I have no choice about the dreams I dream and I have no choice about what

happens next in the sense that a cataclysm might obliterate me from the face of

this globe any moment. Against such a scenario, why is the Upanishad labouring

so hard with a simile where an insignificant intellect is granted the grand role

of the charioteer? Why is a jIvAtma so laboriously erected in order to equate

it ultimately with the paramAtma through tatwamasi? Isn't this jIvAtma

aggrandisement counter-productive to Advaita?

>

> I may read a thousand books, listen to scores of great teachers, aspire for an

unquenchable thirst for liberation. But, whether I become a good mumukShu and

attain my goal is still in the hands of the Lord, chariot and charioteer

notwithstanding. This may sound like absolute fatalism. But, isn't it the

truth?

>

> In that sense, isn't the intelligent surrender envisioned above real

liberation? The surrender is also not mine; it is the Lord's! Isn't it real

Advaita where the Lord alone remains?

>

> The thirst is the Lord; the glass of water and the quenching of the thirst too

is the Lord. In fact, there is no duality anywhere in this world of the Lord,

which is the Lord through and through. That is *an understanding as well as an

experience* to be lived.

>

> This is what I wanted to say to Peterji in answer to his 44521. At the height

of such surrender, there is no divide between empirical experience and

brahmajnAna. Duality morphs into the non-dual which it has always been but for

that stupid erstwhile ego (ahamkAra) which now has fallen at the Feet of the

Lord as an offered sanguine petal.

>

> Best regards.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

[Guest guest]

who knows maybe i will reach that stage of ,not expecting anything from

karma

 

 

praNAms Sri Suresh prabhuji

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

dont worry prabhuji, you have a ideal company here..I am also a

co-passenger who is hoping to reach that stage of 'nishkAma karma' in the

near future :-))...Perhaps I may near to that destination after settling my

family responsibilities :-)) Human mind always smart enough to

procrastinate things with convincing justification.. is it not :-))

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear bhaskarji,

 

Pranams.

 

Hmmmmmmm!!!! Your statement has raised my eyebrow.

 

*settling MY responsibilities*......

 

regs,

sriram

 

advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> who knows maybe i will reach that stage of ,not expecting anything from

> karma

>

>

> praNAms Sri Suresh prabhuji

>

>

> Hare Krishna

>

>

> dont worry prabhuji, you have a ideal company here..I am also a

> co-passenger who is hoping to reach that stage of 'nishkAma karma' in the

> near future :-))...Perhaps I may near to that destination after settling my

> family responsibilities :-)) Human mind always smart enough to

> procrastinate things with convincing justification.. is it not :-))

>

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

>

>

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri shyam prabhuji

Hare krishna

 

Here is what my theoritical knowledge about karmayOga says :

 

 

The point to be noted here is not that one performs a action without a

desire for a result but without any attachment for the outcome - be it

positive or negative.

 

 

> dont you think 'desire for a result' is nothing but an attachment??

IMO, desire for a result would invariably makes one to attach to the

outcome..It is a natural tendency of the human mind to get entangled in the

desires...result is shOka & mOha..That is the reason why shankara says

karma should be done with 'karma phala saMkalpa tyAga'...then only it is

qualified as saMnyAsa and yOga.

 

 

So the sankalpa for Arjuna, and for us, to discharge our duties not for

" myself " preetyartham but " parameshwara preetyartham " ..and so the prayer is

for durita kshaya..

 

 

> mama upAtta samastha durita kshaya dvAra sree parameshwara preetyartham

is what we do in saMkalpa is it not?? mama iha janmani, janmAtareshu

samastha prArabha janita dOsha parihArArthaM...see how this ahaMkAra,

mamakAra closely knitted in our saMkalpa :-)) sahajaM karma kaunteya says

Krishna in geeta but asks us to leave the above attitude and says: yat

karOshi yadashnAsi..tatkurushvamadarpaNam...if we are doing with this

IshwarArpaNa buddhi then we can able to do karma with a mental tranquility

which hardly sees any difference between sukha-dukha, lAbhAlAbha, jayAjaya

etc..This karmi who does karma with this mentality is as good as saMnyAsi

says shankara elsewhere in geeta bhAshya ( karma saMnyAsasya (saNyAsi),

phalAbhisaMdhityAgasya (karma yOgi) cha tyAgatva sAmAnyaM).

 

 

so the obstacles may not hinder or hamper our efforts - for we do want that

action to bear fruit...not for our personal gain, but so we serve as an

effective instrument, and maintain a prasada-buddhi - a pleasant

disposition to whatever the result may be as verily a Gift from the Lord,

which as the karmaphaladata it always is!

 

 

> Yes, when karma phala dAta is the sole owner to give karma phala..why at

all we should desire for the result & get into trap :-)) Let the Ishwara

decide the result, we do our karma for karma's sake is it not??

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hmmmmmmm!!!! Your statement has raised my eyebrow.

 

*settling MY responsibilities*......

 

 

praNAms Sriram prabhuji

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

I think I have already said that I am still a karmi not a karmayOgi...but

karmayOgi is there in my mind and not at heart..so it is not a big surprise

to hear from a 'karmi' with regard to his ahaM, mama related statements

:-)) Hope after reading this your eye brows will come down :-))

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

 

bhaskar

 

 

[Guest guest]

hare krishna, namaskarams

 

--- On Wed, 20/5/09, Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:

 

{I may read a thousand books, listen to scores of great teachers, aspire for an

unquenchable thirst for liberation. But, whether I become a good mumukShu and

attain my goal is still in the hands of the Lord, chariot and charioteer

notwithstanding. This may sound like absolute fatalism. But, isn't it the

truth?In that sense, isn't the intelligent surrender envisioned above real

liberation? The surrender is also not mine; it is the Lord's! Isn't it real

Advaita where the Lord alone remains? The thirst is the Lord; the glass of water

and the quenching of the thirst too is the Lord. In fact, there is no duality

anywhere in this world of the Lord, which is the Lord through and through. That

is *an understanding as well as an experience* to be lived.]absolutely

correct.one has to wait for the lord's  grace for that liberation.the final

stage of all the endeavor is just wait with the faith that oneness is felt by

yourself.baskaran.

 

the oneness is realised.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India

Travel http://in.travel./

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dr. Shaym-ji.

 

Thanks for the explanation in # 45167.

 

It is quite in line with what Sw. Paramarthanandaji says in Smt. Lakshmi-ji's

Jiva Yatra series.

 

My concern was with our undue stress on the jIvAtma (I mean the individual jIvA)

and its limitations which we are interminably told to negate in order to realize

our real fullness. I thought preoccupation with limitations (BMI, sense organs

etc.) was a very counter-productive strategy. May be I am wrong.

 

Found this piece of poetry and thought it relevant to our situation:

______________

 

To learn the scriptures is easy,

to live them, hard.

The search for the Real

is no simple matter.

 

Deep in my looking,

the last words vanished.

Joyous and silent,

the waking that met me there.

 

---- Lalla (Lal Ded)

4th Century

___________________

 

Lalla had a more simple and direct method, it seems, which we can't easily

fathom if we dwell upon voluminous tomes.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

________________

 

 

-- In advaitin , " shyam_md " <shyam_md wrote:

>

> PranAms Nair-ji

> Let me share my understanding.

> When we talk of surrender, we are talking about two entities by default - a

surrenderer and a recipient thereof.

>>

> Now in this Whole Infinite there is no room for another entity. But

unfortunately, due ot beginningless avidyA, there is this seeming entity with a

limited i-sense who harbors a notional sense of separation from the whole. Who

is this entity - it is, as you point out - the ahankara-ridden jivAtma.

[Guest guest]

Madathil Nair wrote:

 

>> The thirst is the Lord; the glass of water and the quenching of the

thirst

>> too is the Lord. In fact, there is no duality anywhere in this world of

>> the Lord, which is the Lord through and through.

>> That is *an understanding as well as an experience* to be lived.

 

>> This is what I wanted to say to Peterji in answer to his 44521.

>> At the height of such surrender, there is no divide between empirical

>> experience and brahmajnAna. Duality morphs into the non-dual which

>> it has always been but for that stupid erstwhile ego (ahamkAra)

>> which now has fallen at the Feet of the Lord as an offered sanguine

petal.

 

Dear Nair-ji,

 

Apologies for the delay in acknowledging your email, above.

 

" That is *an understanding as well as an experience* to be lived. "

 

What your words here and in your recent post quoting Lalla bring to mind is

the extent to which we regard " understanding " as the equivalent *only* to

intellectualisation by which we often really mean conceptualisation.

 

Best wishes,

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

Namaste Peterji.

 

If anyone is to apologise, it is me. I promised to write to you long back. I

didn't.

 

I thought I would do that through a blog as I was afraid of going unconventional

here. Ideas were crowding my head. But, there wasn't sufficient inspiration to

move my fingers on the key-board. This inertia is a strange thing.

 

Sorry for what happened and thank you for accepting my indirect reference as a

reply and also for vibing with my thoughts.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

__________________

 

advaitin , " Peter " <not_2 wrote:

>

>

> Apologies for the delay in acknowledging your email, above.

>

> " That is *an understanding as well as an experience* to be lived. "

>

> What your words here and in your recent post quoting Lalla bring to mind is

> the extent to which we regard " understanding " as the equivalent *only* to

> intellectualisation by which we often really mean conceptualisation.