Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2009 Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our actions,both good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from life's lessons and become better people. Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through thoughts,words and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and refine our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and experiencing the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is salvation. Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge -jnaagnihi manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and aagami. Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action and this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our thoughts, because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and mixed. I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of Karma. http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20collection%\ 3Aopensource_audio Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 15, 2009 Pranamas Karma is universal principle only on the base of false self , within the illusion. The cause and effect is reality, only on the base of false self. The fact is Ataman is the true self, and Ataman is uncaused. Buddhism says, there is nothing - nonentity. Advitha says there is some reality, even though things are not what they appear to be. If one knows the truth, he will know there is neither cause nor effect. Advith is to know, what is it that is Real, and base the reasoning on that real. When reasoning is done on true base, one has the yardstick to know what is truth, and what is untruth, and he will be able to reject the unreal/untruth. Therefore one has to make sure whether the true self is body/mind/I, or true self is soul/Ataman. If one accepts the self is body, then as you say the karma is universal principal. If one accepts the soul as self, then the physical body, ego, world and whatever one has seen, known and believed and experienced, as a person becomes unreal, on the standpoint of the soul as self. By accepting karma theory, one is accepting the unreal, as real, and permanently remains in the clutches of duality, thinking the cycle of birth, life and death as reality. Therefore, to overcome the illusory cycle of birth, life and death, one has to know the fact that, the body/mind/I is not the self, but the formless soul is the true self. With respect and regards Santthosh advaitin , " golianjaneyulu " <golianjaneyulu wrote: > > Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our actions,both good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from life's lessons and become better people. > > Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through thoughts,words and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and refine our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and experiencing the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is salvation. > > Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge -jnaagnihi manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and aagami. > > Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action and this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our thoughts, because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and mixed. > > I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of Karma. > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20col\ lection%3Aopensource_audio > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 15, 2009 Dear santosh, All these concepts of *lllusion* are fine and also you are partially correct that the person who has realised the objective of life, he has crossed the ocean of samsara and for him theories of karma doesn't work out. Illusion is an *experience* of the highly realised soul for whom nothing remains to be achieved. It is something like this: The moment you take a dip in Ganga, all your sins are washed off but the moment you come out of the Sacred Ganges and sit on the banks, the sins are again waiting for you and would be chasing you. So, as long as you have the consciousness of *I* & *Mine*, you have to BELIEVE in theories and vasanas are going to haunt you. Till you realise your own *self*, till your mind gets dissolved, till your ego is merged, you have to believe the *illusion* as *real*. You can't reject the world and the creation to be baseless. with regs, sriram advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar wrote: > > > Pranamas > > > > Karma is universal principle only on the base of false self , within > the illusion. The cause and effect is reality, only on the base of false > self. The fact is Ataman is the true self, and Ataman is uncaused. > Buddhism says, there is nothing - nonentity. Advitha says there is some > reality, even though things are not what they appear to be. If one knows > the truth, he will know there is neither cause nor effect. Advith is to > know, what is it that is Real, and base the reasoning on that real. > > > > When reasoning is done on true base, one has the yardstick to know what > is truth, and what is untruth, and he will be able to reject the > unreal/untruth. Therefore one has to make sure whether the true self is > body/mind/I, or true self is soul/Ataman. If one accepts the self is > body, then as you say the karma is universal principal. If one accepts > the soul as self, then the physical body, ego, world and whatever one > has seen, known and believed and experienced, as a person becomes > unreal, on the standpoint of the soul as self. By accepting karma > theory, one is accepting the unreal, as real, and permanently remains in > the clutches of duality, thinking the cycle of birth, life and death as > reality. Therefore, to overcome the illusory cycle of birth, life and > death, one has to know the fact that, the body/mind/I is not the self, > but the formless soul is the true self. > > > > With respect and regards > > Santthosh > > > > > > advaitin , " golianjaneyulu " <golianjaneyulu@> > wrote: > > > > Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our actions,both > good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from > life's lessons and become better people. > > > > Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through thoughts,words > and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in > time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must > always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and refine > our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or > karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and experiencing > the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is > salvation. > > > > Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge -jnaagnihi > manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of > latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and aagami. > > > > Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and > virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action and > this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our thoughts, > because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and mixed. > > > > I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of Karma. > > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20col\ > lection%3Aopensource_audio > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 17, 2009 Dear Sriramji, Thank you for your wisdom. Ish Upanishad says:- 10/11/12 Those people who have neglected the attainment of Self-knowledge and have thus committed suicide, as it were, are doomed to enter those worlds after death. This is a condemnation of people who do not try to attain Self-knowledge. They are, in a real sense, committing suicide, for what can be worse than being a slave to sense enjoyment, completely oblivious of the real purpose of life, which is to be your own master? In order to be your own master you have to realize that you are identical with Ataman, the true Self, that you are Pure Consciousness, ever free, without name and form, and unconditioned. You are not subject to any modification, without beginning and end, beyond thought and speech. You are Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute. When you know this you are free. You no longer swing between birth and death. If you do not try to know who you really are, you are indeed committing suicide. You are inviting the ignominy of a slave's life in this world and a similarly unfortunate fate after death. , the Self, is one without a second, complete in itself. It never moves. It is always still, always the same, yet it moves faster than the mind. It is the power that moves everything, and it makes the whole world go the way it does. It gives Those who mechanically perform sacrifices [avidya] go into darkness that is like being blind. But those who merely worship gods and goddesses [vidya] go into a deeper darkness. [iX] " Blinding darkness' here implies ignorance. And those who worship gods and goddesses go into a deeper darkness because they seek rewards for their worship. As long as there is the sense of " I' and " mine' within us, there can be no Self-knowledge. When you say " me' and " mine' you automatically identify yourself with your body-mind complex. This shows that you are ignorant of your real Self, which is Pure Consciousness and which is also the Self of all. The sign of an ignorant person is in the way he uses the words " I' and " mine'. He says: " I am so and so. I own this much property,' and so on. An ignorant person has many desires in his mind, and because of these desires he is born again and again. He has to have a body; otherwise he cannot satisfy his desires. But the more he tries to satisfy them, the more they grip his mind. This goes on endlessly. But it is given to a human being to think, reason, and discriminate. Thus he soon comes to realize that the path he has been following cannot give him peace of mind. He understands that he has to choose another path the path of renunciation. As long as he does not practice renunciation, he gropes in the dark like a blind man and he suffers. There are two types of such people who grope in the dark. One type worships avidya (ignorance) that is, they mechanically perform the prescribed sacrifices without any thought as to why they are doing them. No wonder they grope in the dark. They are doomed unless someday the truth dawns on them that to save themselves they must seek Self-knowledge. Worse, however, is the situation of the other type those who worship vidya. The word vidya ¸ usually means " knowledge', but here it is used to mean " gods and goddesses'. Some people worship gods and goddesses so that they may someday attain the same status. They may get their desire fulfilled, but this will only delay their liberation. That is why the Upanisad says that they will be in deeper darkness. Scholars say that the path of avidya [performing aganihotra and other sacrifices] and the path of vidya [worshipping gods and goddesses] produce different results. Wise men confirm this. [X] Vidya and avidya both are hindrances to Self-knowledge, but vidya is even worse than avidya. The word vidya is used here in a special sense; here it means worshipping gods and goddesses. By worshipping gods and goddesses you will go after death to the world of gods and goddesses. But will that help you? The time you spend there is wasted, because if you were not there you could have spent that time moving forward towards Self-knowledge, which is your goal. In the world of gods and goddesses you cannot do that, and thus you go deeper and deeper into darkness. Avidya is karma and therefore a hindrance. You perform avidya - i.e., you perform Agnihotra and other sacrifices. This is a roundabout way of purifying the mind, and it is also groping in the dark. But it may not have as heavy a toll on your time and energy as the other. Dear Sriramji, To overcome the ignorance one has to inquire, analyze and reason on the true base. Until one believes in karma theory, he will remain in ignorance. Until ignorance is there, he will remain experiencing illusion as reality. Until illusion is there, he will remain ignorant of the fact that, the cycle birth, life and death are mere mirage. Therefore, it is not possible for one to accept the fact that, world is illusion, unless and until he becomes aware of the fact that the physical body is not the self, but the soul/Ataman, is the true self. Therefore, for those who believe the body as self, and refuse to accept the soul/Ataman as true self, find the law of karma as universal law and very sacred, because they have accepted their birth, life and death as reality without verifying the validity of their accepted truth. Thus instead of indulging in the scriptural path, it is better to follow the Ramana's path of inquiry which helps the seeker to enter the inner realm. And as his inquiry matures, he will be able to realize the fact that, the karma was reality only on the false base, within the false experience, the formless witness of the false experience [waking/dream] is Ataman and Ataman is the true self. And he will be able to understand the real meaning of the illusion. With respect and regards Santthosh. advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Dear santosh, > > All these concepts of *lllusion* are fine and also you are partially correct that the person who has realised the objective of life, he has crossed the ocean of samsara and for him theories of karma doesn't work out. > > Illusion is an *experience* of the highly realised soul for whom nothing remains to be achieved. It is something like this: > > The moment you take a dip in Ganga, all your sins are washed off but the moment you come out of the Sacred Ganges and sit on the banks, the sins are again waiting for you and would be chasing you. > > So, as long as you have the consciousness of *I* & *Mine*, you have to BELIEVE in theories and vasanas are going to haunt you. Till you realise your own *self*, till your mind gets dissolved, till your ego is merged, you have to believe the *illusion* as *real*. You can't reject the world and the creation to be baseless. > > with regs, > sriram > > > > advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " santthoshkumaar@ wrote: > > > > > > Pranamas > > > > > > > > Karma is universal principle only on the base of false self , within > > the illusion. The cause and effect is reality, only on the base of false > > self. The fact is Ataman is the true self, and Ataman is uncaused. > > Buddhism says, there is nothing - nonentity. Advitha says there is some > > reality, even though things are not what they appear to be. If one knows > > the truth, he will know there is neither cause nor effect. Advith is to > > know, what is it that is Real, and base the reasoning on that real. > > > > > > > > When reasoning is done on true base, one has the yardstick to know what > > is truth, and what is untruth, and he will be able to reject the > > unreal/untruth. Therefore one has to make sure whether the true self is > > body/mind/I, or true self is soul/Ataman. If one accepts the self is > > body, then as you say the karma is universal principal. If one accepts > > the soul as self, then the physical body, ego, world and whatever one > > has seen, known and believed and experienced, as a person becomes > > unreal, on the standpoint of the soul as self. By accepting karma > > theory, one is accepting the unreal, as real, and permanently remains in > > the clutches of duality, thinking the cycle of birth, life and death as > > reality. Therefore, to overcome the illusory cycle of birth, life and > > death, one has to know the fact that, the body/mind/I is not the self, > > but the formless soul is the true self. > > > > > > > > With respect and regards > > > > Santthosh > > > > > > > > > > > > advaitin , " golianjaneyulu " <golianjaneyulu@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our actions,both > > good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from > > life's lessons and become better people. > > > > > > Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through thoughts,words > > and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in > > time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must > > always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and refine > > our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or > > karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and experiencing > > the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is > > salvation. > > > > > > Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge -jnaagnihi > > manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of > > latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and aagami. > > > > > > Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and > > virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action and > > this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our thoughts, > > because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and mixed. > > > > > > I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of Karma. > > > > > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20col\ \ > > lection%3Aopensource_audio > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 18, 2009 Please read *Naishkarmya Siddhi* of Shri Sureshwaracharya. Jnani does not throw away his karma anushtana to the winds. The state of advaita is the *experience* where the Karmanushtana automatically drops off without any external effort. One need not throw it forcibly. Just as the drunkard is oblivious of his surroundings and is not consciousness of his body whether cloths are on or not, similarly the during the brahmi sthiti of the jnani, the karma kanda drops off. Forcibly throwing the karma anushtana leads to ubhaya bhrashtava. There is a proverb in Hindi *Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka, na ghat ka*. It leads you nowhere. with regs, sriram advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar wrote: > > > Dear Sriramji, > > Thank you for your wisdom. > > > > > > Ish Upanishad says:- > > > > > 10/11/12 > > > > Those people who have neglected the attainment of Self-knowledge and > have thus committed suicide, as it were, are doomed to enter those > worlds after death. > > > > This is a condemnation of people who do not try to attain > Self-knowledge. They are, in a real sense, committing suicide, for what > can be worse than being a slave to sense enjoyment, completely oblivious > of the real purpose of life, which is to be your own master? In order to > be your own master you have to realize that you are identical with > Ataman, the true Self, that you are Pure Consciousness, ever free, > without name and form, and unconditioned. > > > > You are not subject to any modification, without beginning and end, > beyond thought and speech. You are Existence Absolute, Knowledge > Absolute, Bliss Absolute. When you know this you are free. You no longer > swing between birth and death. If you do not try to know who you really > are, you are indeed committing suicide. You are inviting the ignominy of > a slave's life in this world and a similarly unfortunate fate after > death. , the Self, is one without a second, complete in itself. It never > moves. It is always still, always the same, yet it moves faster than the > mind. It is the power that moves everything, and it makes the whole > world go the way it does. It gives > > > > Those who mechanically perform sacrifices [avidya] go into darkness that > is like being blind. But those who merely worship gods and goddesses > [vidya] go into a deeper darkness. [iX] > > > > " Blinding darkness' here implies ignorance. And those who worship gods > and goddesses go into a deeper darkness because they seek rewards for > their worship. As long as there is the sense of " I' and " mine' within > us, there can be no Self-knowledge. When you say " me' and " mine' you > automatically identify yourself with your body-mind complex. This shows > that you are ignorant of your real Self, which is Pure Consciousness and > which is also the Self of all. The sign of an ignorant person is in the > way he uses the words " I' and " mine'. He says: " I am so and so. I own > this much property,' and so on. > > > > An ignorant person has many desires in his mind, and because of these > desires he is born again and again. He has to have a body; otherwise he > cannot satisfy his desires. But the more he tries to satisfy them, the > more they grip his mind. This goes on endlessly. But it is given to a > human being to think, reason, and discriminate. Thus he soon comes to > realize that the path he has been following cannot give him peace of > mind. He understands that he has to choose another path the path of > renunciation. As long as he does not practice renunciation, he gropes in > the dark like a blind man and he suffers. > > > > There are two types of such people who grope in the dark. One type > worships avidya (ignorance) that is, they mechanically perform the > prescribed sacrifices without any thought as to why they are doing them. > No wonder they grope in the dark. They are doomed unless someday the > truth dawns on them that to save themselves they must seek > Self-knowledge. > > > > > > Worse, however, is the situation of the other type those who worship > vidya. The word vidya ¸ usually means " knowledge', but here it is > used to mean " gods and goddesses'. Some people worship gods and > goddesses so that they may someday attain the same status. They may get > their desire fulfilled, but this will only delay their liberation. That > is why the Upanisad says that they will be in deeper darkness. > > > > > > Scholars say that the path of avidya [performing aganihotra and other > sacrifices] and the path of vidya [worshipping gods and goddesses] > produce different results. Wise men confirm this. [X] > > > > Vidya and avidya both are hindrances to Self-knowledge, but vidya is > even worse than avidya. The word vidya is used here in a special sense; > here it means worshipping gods and goddesses. By worshipping gods and > goddesses you will go after death to the world of gods and goddesses. > > > > But will that help you? The time you spend there is wasted, because if > you were not there you could have spent that time moving forward towards > Self-knowledge, which is your goal. In the world of gods and goddesses > you cannot do that, and thus you go deeper and deeper into darkness. > > > > Avidya is karma and therefore a hindrance. You perform avidya - i.e., > you perform Agnihotra and other sacrifices. This is a roundabout way of > purifying the mind, and it is also groping in the dark. But it may not > have as heavy a toll on your time and energy as the other. > > > > Dear Sriramji, > > To overcome the ignorance one has to inquire, analyze and reason on the > true base. Until one believes in karma theory, he will remain in > ignorance. Until ignorance is there, he will remain experiencing > illusion as reality. Until illusion is there, he will remain ignorant > of the fact that, the cycle birth, life and death are mere mirage. > Therefore, it is not possible for one to accept the fact that, world is > illusion, unless and until he becomes aware of the fact that the > physical body is not the self, but the soul/Ataman, is the true > self. Therefore, for those who believe the body as self, and refuse to > accept the soul/Ataman as true self, find the law of karma as universal > law and very sacred, because they have accepted their birth, life and > death as reality without verifying the validity of their accepted > truth. > > > > Thus instead of indulging in the scriptural path, it is better to follow > the Ramana's path of inquiry which helps the seeker to enter the > inner realm. And as his inquiry matures, he will be able to realize the > fact that, the karma was reality only on the false base, within the > false experience, the formless witness of the false experience > [waking/dream] is Ataman and Ataman is the true self. And he will be > able to understand the real meaning of the illusion. > > > > With respect and regards > > Santthosh. > > > > > > advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > > > Dear santosh, > > > > All these concepts of *lllusion* are fine and also you are partially > correct that the person who has realised the objective of life, he has > crossed the ocean of samsara and for him theories of karma doesn't work > out. > > > > Illusion is an *experience* of the highly realised soul for whom > nothing remains to be achieved. It is something like this: > > > > The moment you take a dip in Ganga, all your sins are washed off but > the moment you come out of the Sacred Ganges and sit on the banks, the > sins are again waiting for you and would be chasing you. > > > > So, as long as you have the consciousness of *I* & *Mine*, you have to > BELIEVE in theories and vasanas are going to haunt you. Till you > realise your own *self*, till your mind gets dissolved, till your ego is > merged, you have to believe the *illusion* as *real*. You can't reject > the world and the creation to be baseless. > > > > with regs, > > sriram > > > > > > > > advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " santthoshkumaar@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Pranamas > > > > > > > > > > > > Karma is universal principle only on the base of false self , > within > > > the illusion. The cause and effect is reality, only on the base of > false > > > self. The fact is Ataman is the true self, and Ataman is uncaused. > > > Buddhism says, there is nothing - nonentity. Advitha says there is > some > > > reality, even though things are not what they appear to be. If one > knows > > > the truth, he will know there is neither cause nor effect. Advith is > to > > > know, what is it that is Real, and base the reasoning on that real. > > > > > > > > > > > > When reasoning is done on true base, one has the yardstick to know > what > > > is truth, and what is untruth, and he will be able to reject the > > > unreal/untruth. Therefore one has to make sure whether the true > self is > > > body/mind/I, or true self is soul/Ataman. If one accepts the self is > > > body, then as you say the karma is universal principal. If one > accepts > > > the soul as self, then the physical body, ego, world and whatever > one > > > has seen, known and believed and experienced, as a person becomes > > > unreal, on the standpoint of the soul as self. By accepting karma > > > theory, one is accepting the unreal, as real, and permanently > remains in > > > the clutches of duality, thinking the cycle of birth, life and death > as > > > reality. Therefore, to overcome the illusory cycle of birth, life > and > > > death, one has to know the fact that, the body/mind/I is not the > self, > > > but the formless soul is the true self. > > > > > > > > > > > > With respect and regards > > > > > > Santthosh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advaitin , " golianjaneyulu " <golianjaneyulu@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our > actions,both > > > good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from > > > life's lessons and become better people. > > > > > > > > Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through > thoughts,words > > > and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in > > > time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must > > > always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and > refine > > > our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or > > > karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and > experiencing > > > the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is > > > salvation. > > > > > > > > Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge > -jnaagnihi > > > manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of > > > latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and > aagami. > > > > > > > > Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and > > > virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action > and > > > this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our > thoughts, > > > because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and > mixed. > > > > > > > > I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of > Karma. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20col\ > \ > > > lection%3Aopensource_audio > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Please read *Naishkarmya Siddhi* of Shri Sureshwaracharya. Jnani does not throw away his karma anushtana to the winds. The state of advaita is the *experience* where the Karmanushtana automatically drops off without any external effort. One need not throw it forcibly. Just as the drunkard is oblivious of his surroundings and is not consciousness of his body whether cloths are on or not, similarly the during the brahmi sthiti of the jnani, the karma kanda drops off. > > Forcibly throwing the karma anushtana leads to ubhaya bhrashtava. There is a proverb in Hindi *Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka, na ghat ka*. It leads you nowhere. > > with regs, > sriram Namaste,S,IMO, Karma is memory in the subtle body, as there is really no time karma is all instant. However on the material plane it is all Chaos and evolution....so karma doesn't happen to us we inject ourselves into it...to learn or experience a lesson so to speak...so obviously if one has learned the lesson one doesn't need to inject oneself into the Chaos. Also all karma is overcome by moksha....Tony. Any discussion on these ideas? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 I was talking of Nitya Naimittika Karma as per *Varna Ashrama Dharma*. If one does not perform the Sandhya Anushtana and Gayatri Japa, the traivarnikas accrue sin of not performing their nitya karma. However, this rule does not apply to the 4th varna. I am sorry if i have hurt anybody's feelings. Since, we are followers of Sankara Sampradaya, we give utmost importance to Karma Kanda. Throwing Sandhya Anushtana, Panchayatana Worship to the winds leads to Karma Bhrashtatva. That is what i meant. regs, sriram --- On Tue, 19/5/09, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: Tony OClery <aoclery Re: Law of Karma advaitin Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 4:14 AM advaitin@ s.com, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Please read *Naishkarmya Siddhi* of Shri Sureshwaracharya. Jnani does not throw away his karma anushtana to the winds. The state of advaita is the *experience* where the Karmanushtana automatically drops off without any external effort. One need not throw it forcibly. Just as the drunkard is oblivious of his surroundings and is not consciousness of his body whether cloths are on or not, similarly the during the brahmi sthiti of the jnani, the karma kanda drops off. > > Forcibly throwing the karma anushtana leads to ubhaya bhrashtava. There is a proverb in Hindi *Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka, na ghat ka*. It leads you nowhere. > > with regs, > sriram Namaste,S,IMO, Karma is memory in the subtle body, as there is really no time karma is all instant. However on the material plane it is all Chaos and evolution... .so karma doesn't happen to us we inject ourselves into it...to learn or experience a lesson so to speak...so obviously if one has learned the lesson one doesn't need to inject oneself into the Chaos. Also all karma is overcome by moksha....Tony. Any discussion on these ideas? Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel http://in.travel./ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 If one does not perform the Sandhya Anushtana and Gayatri Japa, the traivarnikas accrue sin of not performing their nitya karma. praNAms Hare Krishna However, modern day vedantins would think that since these nitya & naimittika karma-s (including devatArchana) is meant for mental purification (chitta shuddhi), this chitta shuddhi can be accrued through the observation other means like meditation etc. So, they gave their own explanations to skip these nitya and naimittika karma-s, they prefer meditation to sandhya vandana, which is, in their opinion, nothing but taking water from here and pouring there :-)) ...I doubt, whether those who give justification to skip these injunctions of dharma shAstra wear the yajnOpaveeta or not!!! After all, what they have to do with this mere thread, when they are not doing nitya karma-s like saNdhyA vandana etc. and getting the mental purification through other alternative methods!! Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear bhaskar, Pranams. This is just the sorry state of affairs, unfortunately. with regs, sriram advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > If one does not perform the Sandhya Anushtana and Gayatri Japa, the > traivarnikas accrue sin of not performing their nitya karma. > > > praNAms > > > Hare Krishna > > > However, modern day vedantins would think that since these nitya & > naimittika karma-s (including devatArchana) is meant for mental > purification (chitta shuddhi), this chitta shuddhi can be accrued through > the observation other means like meditation etc. So, they gave their own > explanations to skip these nitya and naimittika karma-s, they prefer > meditation to sandhya vandana, which is, in their opinion, nothing but > taking water from here and pouring there :-)) ...I doubt, whether those > who give justification to skip these injunctions of dharma shAstra wear the > yajnOpaveeta or not!!! After all, what they have to do with this mere > thread, when they are not doing nitya karma-s like saNdhyA vandana etc. and > getting the mental purification through other alternative methods!! > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > > bhaskar > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Bhaskarji and Sriramji, your this post raises a doubt in my mind. every human being is not provided with the yajnopaveeta. In such a case what can the people who do not fall in this group ( ones who are not supposed to wear ) do? namaskaram ram hi Friend.I want to introduce you a good company: www.nimoyf.com they sell original laptop and mobile phones .it is good service and Delivery fast .Please take some time to have a lookMaybe you will have something need .email:nimoyf best regards ram mohan --- On Tue, 19/5/09, sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: sriram <sriram_sapthasathi Re: Law of Karma advaitin Tuesday, 19 May, 2009, 10:38 AM Dear bhaskar, Pranams. This is just the sorry state of affairs, unfortunately. with regs, sriram advaitin@ s.com, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@ ...> wrote: > > > If one does not perform the Sandhya Anushtana and Gayatri Japa, the > traivarnikas accrue sin of not performing their nitya karma. > > > praNAms > > > Hare Krishna > > > However, modern day vedantins would think that since these nitya & > naimittika karma-s (including devatArchana) is meant for mental > purification (chitta shuddhi), this chitta shuddhi can be accrued through > the observation other means like meditation etc. So, they gave their own > explanations to skip these nitya and naimittika karma-s, they prefer > meditation to sandhya vandana, which is, in their opinion, nothing but > taking water from here and pouring there :-)) ...I doubt, whether those > who give justification to skip these injunctions of dharma shAstra wear the > yajnOpaveeta or not!!! After all, what they have to do with this mere > thread, when they are not doing nitya karma-s like saNdhyA vandana etc. and > getting the mental purification through other alternative methods!! > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > > bhaskar > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear Sriram-ji, Not to take part in these discussions, I just wanted to correct your statement " Since, we are followers of saMkara sampradAya, we give utmost importance to karma kANDa. " Shankara in fact gave utmost importance to j~nAna kANDa. I'm sure this was just a slip of the 'pen' on your part but just wanted to avoid any member's being confused! Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of venkata sriram Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:58 AM advaitin Re: Re: Law of Karma << >> I am sorry if i have hurt anybody's feelings. Since, we are followers of Sankara Sampradaya, we give utmost importance to Karma Kanda. Throwing Sandhya Anushtana, Panchayatana Worship to the winds leads to Karma Bhrashtatva. That is what i meant. regs, sriram Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 praNAms Hare Krishna It is also equally important to be noted that though shankara has given utmost importance to jnAna, he never ever belittle the efficacy of karma...Infact he, at some places in geeta bhAshya, praises the karma yOga and says karma yOga is the stepping stone to achieve *saMpUrNa Ishwara sharaNAgati*. He emphasizes that one should leave aside akarma (skipping the veda vihita karma-s citing mundane excuses or due to lethargy) and vikarma (prohibited karma-s in shAstra-s) and do the karma...When this karma is done with an aptitude of ahaMkAra tyAga (selflessness), karma phala tyAga (not expecting the fruit of his action), samatva buddhi (tranquility of mind) and IshwarArpaNa (surrendering it to almighty) this karma becomes karma yOga...Elsewhere in geeta bhAshya shankara says, karmayOga nishTAyAH parama rahasyaM Ishwara sharaNAgatiM (the main secret to karma yOga is that it leads to complete surrenderence to the almighty)..So, in advaita, though karma is not a direct means to mOksha, it is there and to be followed as a stepping stone towards chitta shuddhi and jnAna sAdhana... Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear dennisji, Pranams. The necessity of performing Karma, in general, is stated by the shruti itself: kurvanneveha karmANi.....samAH. This advice is for those who have jivitecchA, or those still with deha tAdAtmya [identification of the self with the body]. Such an upAsaka, though desirous of mokSha, cannot give up karma. It is only for a jnAni who has no deha tAdAtmya that the Lord recommends in gItA shAstra: Atmanyeva cha santuShTastasya kAryaM na vidyate. The inherent nindA in the stuti of karma is quite evident in the shAstras and jnAna niShTha is certainly desirable but it is better to have karma nishThA than nothing at all. gItAchArya throws further light on the particulars of the karma that needs to be performed, niyataM kuru karma tvam, the shAstras prescribe karma to a person based on four criteria: varNa, Ashrama, svabhAva and paristhiti. Such prescribed karma, which is a duty [kartavya], is termed here as niyata karma. Though Karma is said to cause bondage, this is only true for that karma which is performed for the appeasement of the body and the senses. Karma done without the attachment to the desire and for the sole sake of pleasing parameshwara does not cause bondage, but rather cleanses the antaHkaraNa. It is to be noted that Jnana & Advaita Siddhi is the sAdhya (the goal and objective) but not the sAdhana. The sadhana is Karma Kanda and the sAdhya is Jnana Nishta. There is a difference between *ends* & *means*. People mistake the *end* to be the *means* and hence the confusion and mistake of throwing away the karma anushtana. Had Acharya Sankara laid emphasis *only* on Jnana Kanda, why did he took pains in establishing the mutts and installed the Sriyantra and the Idol of Sarada Devi. Why did he prescribe the tantra & karma kanda of *srividya upasana* in the 4 amnaya mutts? with regs, sriram advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote: > > Dear Sriram-ji, > > Not to take part in these discussions, I just wanted to correct your > statement " Since, we are followers of saMkara sampradAya, we give utmost > importance to karma kANDa. " Shankara in fact gave utmost importance to > j~nAna kANDa. I'm sure this was just a slip of the 'pen' on your part but > just wanted to avoid any member's being confused! > > Best wishes, > > Dennis > > > > advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf > Of venkata sriram > Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:58 AM > advaitin > Re: Re: Law of Karma > > << >> > > I am sorry if i have hurt anybody's feelings. Since, we are followers of > Sankara Sampradaya, we give utmost importance to Karma Kanda. Throwing > Sandhya Anushtana, Panchayatana Worship to the winds leads to Karma > Bhrashtatva. > > That is what i meant. > > regs, > sriram > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 It is to be noted that Jnana & Advaita Siddhi is the sAdhya (the goal and objective) but not the sAdhana. The sadhana is Karma Kanda and the sAdhya is Jnana Nishta. praNAms Sri ram prabhuji Hare Krishna Would it be possible for you to elaborate how karma kAnda is the sAdhana that can directly leads one to jnAna or advaita siddhi?? For jnAna sAdhana shankara prescribed shravaNa, manana & nidhidhyAsanaM...IMHO, karma kAnda cannot be the direct sAdhana to say it is means & jnAna is the goal (result)...Yes, shankara in geeta bhAshya says karma yOga leads to IshwarArpaNa buddhiM, then sattva shuddhi (mental purification) then jnAna prApti and finally through sarvakarma saMnyAsa krameNa mOksha)...Shankara here says bhagavan gives us the hierarchical steps to attain that mOksha. In those steps the karma yOga is the step which comes first and finally sarva karma saMnyAsa for the final emancipation...karmayOgascha IshwarArpita sarva bhAvena Ishware brahmaNi AdhAya kriyamANaH sattva shuddhi, jnAna prApti, sarvakarma saMnyAsa kramENa mOkshAya iti bhagavAn pade pade abraveet, vakshyate cha (introduction to geeta 5th chapter 27th verse)...but AFAIK, he never said karma is the direct sAdhana to achieve (sAdhya) jnAna...Since karma is kevala purusha tantra it cannot lead the sAdhaka to vastu tantra jnAna...Anyway, right now, I dont recall where shankara said karma kAnda is sAdhana & resultant jnAna is sAdhya...Kindly let us know. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear Bhaskarji, I would appreciate your help in getting out of my confoundment resulting from this discussion. Karma cannot lead to liberation - Moksha - Self-Realization.. SamnyAsa cannot also, because Self-Realization cannot be a result of anything. Does this mean that realization has to occur all on its own? Like the falling of Newton's apple. Can then it occur without karma and samnyAsa? Are then the ones who are self-realized without any efforts on their part (as per their followers' avowal of course) to be believed as genuine cases of self-realization? A story quoted here concluded that all the hallabaloo of karma including studying under a traditional stOtriya teacher is unavoidable just to realize at the time of self-realization that all the efforts put in were in fact not at all necessary. In that sense and also due to the importance we seem to attach in this List to vyAvahArika, is there any harm then in concluding that, purely from the vyAvahArika point of view, self-realization is the *result* of both karmAs performed as per scriptural injunctions and karmas performed for acquiring and assimilating the rquired scriptural knowledge? As far as I see, the parts of the vedAs dealing with jnAna also demand at least the karma of studying and reflecting on them. May I repeat here again that I am not talking from the absolute point of view. Otherwise, I am afraid, as devout protagonists of this vyAvahArika, where jnAnis revel in themselves relishing the honey of duality at the same time, we would be engaging in double-talk. Appreciate your guidance. Best regards. Madathil Nair ____________________ advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: ..but AFAIK, he never said karma is the direct sAdhana to achieve > (sAdhya) jnAna...Since karma is kevala purusha tantra it cannot lead the > sAdhaka to vastu tantra jnAna...Anyway, right now, I dont recall where > shankara said karma kAnda is sAdhana & resultant jnAna is sAdhya...Kindly > let us know. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear bhaskarji, Pranams. What is the benchmark and criteria to decide about the *chitta shuddhi* of the sadhaka? Can the sadhaka decide on *his own* and shun off his nitya karma? Even for sanyasis, there is karma anushtana prescribed and they have to follow stringent rules as per *yati dharma nirnaya*. Only avadhutas and ati-varna ashramis are exception to this. regs, sriram advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > It is to be noted that Jnana & Advaita Siddhi is the sAdhya (the goal and > objective) but not the sAdhana. The sadhana is Karma Kanda > and the sAdhya is Jnana Nishta. > > > praNAms Sri ram prabhuji > > > Hare Krishna > > > Would it be possible for you to elaborate how karma kAnda is the sAdhana > that can directly leads one to jnAna or advaita siddhi?? For jnAna sAdhana > shankara prescribed shravaNa, manana & nidhidhyAsanaM...IMHO, karma kAnda > cannot be the direct sAdhana to say it is means & jnAna is the goal > (result)...Yes, shankara in geeta bhAshya says karma yOga leads to > IshwarArpaNa buddhiM, then sattva shuddhi (mental purification) then jnAna > prApti and finally through sarvakarma saMnyAsa krameNa mOksha)...Shankara > here says bhagavan gives us the hierarchical steps to attain that mOksha. > In those steps the karma yOga is the step which comes first and finally > sarva karma saMnyAsa for the final emancipation...karmayOgascha > IshwarArpita sarva bhAvena Ishware brahmaNi AdhAya kriyamANaH sattva > shuddhi, jnAna prApti, sarvakarma saMnyAsa kramENa mOkshAya iti bhagavAn > pade pade abraveet, vakshyate cha (introduction to geeta 5th chapter 27th > verse)...but AFAIK, he never said karma is the direct sAdhana to achieve > (sAdhya) jnAna...Since karma is kevala purusha tantra it cannot lead the > sAdhaka to vastu tantra jnAna...Anyway, right now, I dont recall where > shankara said karma kAnda is sAdhana & resultant jnAna is sAdhya...Kindly > let us know. > > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > > > bhaskar > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 praNAms Sri MN prabhuji Hare Krishna Yes, you are absolutely right, strictly speaking, since Atman or self or brahman is well known, self established one it is not an adventitious thing for any one, ..(na Atma AghuntakaH kasyachit svayaM siddhattvAt...says shankara in sUtra bhAshya)...So there is no effort that can be said has helped us to reveal the ever existing one...But as you know, due to ajnAna we think we are in bondage and through effort we are going to achieve that state of liberation one day :-))...Kindly refer geeta bhAshya 13-2, here shankara discusses the problems that one would face if he thinks mOksha is the result of something & it has beginning... However, for those who believe that there is a bondage and they are the victims of this vicious circle of saMsAra, and for those who believe in the literal meaning of AtmA vA are drashtavyaH, shrOtavyO maNtavyO nidhidhyAsitavyaH shruti vAkya. for them our tradition prescribes some methods (spiritual practices) to overcome this problem...In that initially we have the practices like karya yOga, upAsana etc. then qualities of amAnitva, sattva shuddhi, sAdhana chatushtaya etc. and finally shravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa, which shankara says direct means to realize Atma svarUpa (sAkshAdevacha kAraNatvAt shravaNa, manana nidhidhyAsanAnAM (shankara at the concluding part of sheekshAvalli, taitireeya bhAshya & brahma sUtra 1-1-1)...So, here in this scenario of various spiritual practices, it is been said that karma is not the direct means and sarva karma saNyAsa is needed to persue jnAna mArga..shruti also says na karmaNa, na prajaya dhanena tyAgEnaike amrutatva mAnashuhu..etc. So prabhuji, it is in this context I said karma kAnda is not a direct sAdhana to achieve the goal i.e. Atma jnAna...I dont know, as you rightly pointed out, with the broader scope of vyavahArika reality whether we can say both karma & jnAna, in the form of 'another' karma are the means for self realization!! I think those who stretched the elasticity of vyAvahArik reality beyond its limits would be in a position to clarify whether karma-jnAna samucchaya is permissible in sAdhana in the name of vyavahAra :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Even for sanyasis, there is karma anushtana prescribed and they have to follow stringent rules as per *yati dharma nirnaya*. Only avadhutas and ati-varna ashramis are exception to this. praNAms Sriram prabhuji Hare Krishna when you are talking about karma kAnda as a sAdhana, I thought you are talking about pUrva mImAmsik vidhi-s...Hence I tried to say that is not the case with shankara's siddhAnta...Anyway, thanks for the clarification...However, it would be noted that yati dharma cannot be considered within the rigors of veda vihita karma vidhi-s and cannot be strictly categorized as 'karma kAnda'. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: >So there is no effort that can be said >has > helped us to reveal the ever existing one...But as you know, due to >ajnAna > we think we are in bondage and through effort we are going to >achieve that > state of liberation one day :-))... Bhaskarji and others, If we think we are in bondage, then yes, it is through effort that we get out of such thinking, and that is indeed liberation. I don't see the need to belittle it or the process. If a man is dreaming and wakes up on his own, then he realizes the dream was unreal to begin with, and any idea of making effort to become his awoken self is equally unreal. The question however is not about 'becoming infinite or free'; it is about awaking to that fact, which is liberation from the sleeping to it. When the acharya undermines liberation, (IMO) it is with reference to the former type of assumption, and not the latter. For the dreamer perhaps, liberation is mere conjecture; but it seems, for the awoken person, it should be more clear that he was dreaming and no longer is!! For the one thinking of the self as body, does the waking-up happen without any effort, on its own? Not so, " For [ignorance] disappears at the dawn of DISCRIMINATION " . For 99% of us, since we are actually making effort of various kinds, the waking-up if it does happen must be concluded as consequential of our efforts. (This may lead to the my-will or predetermination/God's will argument; what is advaita's viewpoint here? For now, it seems to me that we must conclude as above. As Sadaji often says, all this discussion is necessarily NOT from Brahman's standpoint. From ours, yes effort is quite real and so is liberation.) As for karma-kanda, dharma, etc., they also apply to us as the means to liberation. Of course, they may not be sufficient by themselves and need to be followed by jnana-marga. But as I understand the sampradaya does not undermine karma-marga by suggesting it does not lead to liberation. It does part of the way, but it needs to be followed up. thollmelukaalkizhu > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Dear Sriram-ji, I did not use the world 'only'; I use the word 'utmost', which means 'greatest'. Since *only* Self-knowledge can remove Self-ignorance, I stand by what I said. Best wishes, Dennis advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf Of sriram Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:03 AM advaitin Re: Law of Karma Dear dennisji, Pranams. The necessity of performing Karma, in general. .. <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4 5098/stime=1242723797/nc1=4507179/nc2=5349276/nc3=3848586> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar wrote: Dear Sriramji, Thank you for your wisdom. Ish Upanishad says:- 10/11/12 Those people who have neglected the attainment of Self-knowledge and have thus committed suicide, as it were, are doomed to enter those worlds after death. This is a condemnation of people who do not try to attain Self-knowledge. They are, in a real sense, committing suicide, for what can be worse than being a slave to sense enjoyment, completely oblivious of the real purpose of life, which is to be your own master? In order to be your own master you have to realize that you are identical with Ataman, the true Self, that you are Pure Consciousness, ever free, without name and form, and unconditioned. You are not subject to any modification, without beginning and end, beyond thought and speech. You are Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute. When you know this you are free. You no longer swing between birth and death. If you do not try to know who you really are, you are indeed committing suicide. You are inviting the ignominy of a slave's life in this world and a similarly unfortunate fate after death. , the Self, is one without a second, complete in itself. It never moves. It is always still, always the same, yet it moves faster than the mind. It is the power that moves everything, and it makes the whole world go the way it does. It gives Those who mechanically perform sacrifices [avidya] go into darkness that is like being blind. But those who merely worship gods and goddesses [vidya] go into a deeper darkness. [iX] " Blinding darkness' here implies ignorance. And those who worship gods and goddesses go into a deeper darkness because they seek rewards for their worship. As long as there is the sense of " I' and " mine' within us, there can be no Self-knowledge. When you say " me' and " mine' you automatically identify yourself with your body-mind complex. This shows that you are ignorant of your real Self, which is Pure Consciousness and which is also the Self of all. The sign of an ignorant person is in the way he uses the words " I' and " mine'. He says: " I am so and so. I own this much property,' and so on. An ignorant person has many desires in his mind, and because of these desires he is born again and again. He has to have a body; otherwise he cannot satisfy his desires. But the more he tries to satisfy them, the more they grip his mind. This goes on endlessly. But it is given to a human being to think, reason, and discriminate. Thus he soon comes to realize that the path he has been following cannot give him peace of mind. He understands that he has to choose another path the path of renunciation. As long as he does not practice renunciation, he gropes in the dark like a blind man and he suffers. There are two types of such people who grope in the dark. One type worships avidya (ignorance) that is, they mechanically perform the prescribed sacrifices without any thought as to why they are doing them. No wonder they grope in the dark. They are doomed unless someday the truth dawns on them that to save themselves they must seek Self-knowledge. Worse, however, is the situation of the other type those who worship vidya. The word vidya ¸ usually means " knowledge', but here it is used to mean " gods and goddesses'. Some people worship gods and goddesses so that they may someday attain the same status. They may get their desire fulfilled, but this will only delay their liberation. That is why the Upanisad says that they will be in deeper darkness. Scholars say that the path of avidya [performing aganihotra and other sacrifices] and the path of vidya [worshipping gods and goddesses] produce different results. Wise men confirm this. [X] Vidya and avidya both are hindrances to Self-knowledge, but vidya is even worse than avidya. The word vidya is used here in a special sense; here it means worshipping gods and goddesses. By worshipping gods and goddesses you will go after death to the world of gods and goddesses. But will that help you? The time you spend there is wasted, because if you were not there you could have spent that time moving forward towards Self-knowledge, which is your goal. In the world of gods and goddesses you cannot do that, and thus you go deeper and deeper into darkness. Avidya is karma and therefore a hindrance. You perform avidya - i.e., you perform Agnihotra and other sacrifices. This is a roundabout way of purifying the mind, and it is also groping in the dark. But it may not have as heavy a toll on your time and energy as the other. Dear Sriramji, To overcome the ignorance one has to inquire, analyze and reason on the true base. Until one believes in karma theory, he will remain in ignorance. Until ignorance is there, he will remain experiencing illusion as reality. Until illusion is there, he will remain ignorant of the fact that, the cycle birth, life and death are mere mirage. Therefore, it is not possible for one to accept the fact that, world is illusion, unless and until he becomes aware of the fact that the physical body is not the self, but the soul/Ataman, is the true self. Therefore, for those who believe the body as self, and refuse to accept the soul/Ataman as true self, find the law of karma as universal law and very sacred, because they have accepted their birth, life and death as reality without verifying the validity of their accepted truth. Thus instead of indulging in the scriptural path, it is better to follow the Ramana's path of inquiry which helps the seeker to enter the inner realm. And as his inquiry matures, he will be able to realize the fact that, the karma was reality only on the false base, within the false experience, the formless witness of the false experience [waking/dream] is Ataman and Ataman is the true self. And he will be able to understand the real meaning of the illusion. With respect and regards Santthosh. advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > > Dear santosh, > > All these concepts of *lllusion* are fine and also you are partially correct that the person who has realised the objective of life, he has crossed the ocean of samsara and for him theories of karma doesn't work out. > > Illusion is an *experience* of the highly realised soul for whom nothing remains to be achieved. It is something like this: > > The moment you take a dip in Ganga, all your sins are washed off but the moment you come out of the Sacred Ganges and sit on the banks, the sins are again waiting for you and would be chasing you. > > So, as long as you have the consciousness of *I* & *Mine*, you have to BELIEVE in theories and vasanas are going to haunt you. Till you realise your own *self*, till your mind gets dissolved, till your ego is merged, you have to believe the *illusion* as *real*. You can't reject the world and the creation to be baseless. > > with regs, > sriram > > > > advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " santthoshkumaar@ wrote: > > > > > > Pranamas > > > > > > > > Karma is universal principle only on the base of false self , within > > the illusion. The cause and effect is reality, only on the base of false > > self. The fact is Ataman is the true self, and Ataman is uncaused. > > Buddhism says, there is nothing - nonentity. Advitha says there is some > > reality, even though things are not what they appear to be. If one knows > > the truth, he will know there is neither cause nor effect. Advith is to > > know, what is it that is Real, and base the reasoning on that real. > > > > > > > > When reasoning is done on true base, one has the yardstick to know what > > is truth, and what is untruth, and he will be able to reject the > > unreal/untruth. Therefore one has to make sure whether the true self is > > body/mind/I, or true self is soul/Ataman. If one accepts the self is > > body, then as you say the karma is universal principal. If one accepts > > the soul as self, then the physical body, ego, world and whatever one > > has seen, known and believed and experienced, as a person becomes > > unreal, on the standpoint of the soul as self. By accepting karma > > theory, one is accepting the unreal, as real, and permanently remains in > > the clutches of duality, thinking the cycle of birth, life and death as > > reality. Therefore, to overcome the illusory cycle of birth, life and > > death, one has to know the fact that, the body/mind/I is not the self, > > but the formless soul is the true self. > > > > > > > > With respect and regards > > > > Santthosh > > > > > > > > > > > > advaitin , " golianjaneyulu " <golianjaneyulu@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Karma is the universal principle of cause and effect. Our actions,both > > good and bad, come back to us in the future,helping us to learn from > > life's lessons and become better people. > > > > > > Karma is basically energy. I throw energy out through thoughts,words > > and deeds - mano vaakkaya karamaas, and it comes back to me in > > time,through other people. Karma is our best teacher , for we must > > always face the consequences of our actions and thus improve and refine > > our behavior, or suffer if we do not. The bondage of this karma or > > karmabandham is the root for repeated births and deaths and experiencing > > the pleasures and pains - sukhadukhaalu.Beyond this bondage is > > salvation. > > > > > > Bhagavadgita suggests that the moment the fire of knowledge -jnaagnihi > > manifests itself the whole stock of sanchita karmas in the form of > > latencies disappear and one is above experiencing prarabhdha and aagami. > > > > > > Understanding the way the karma works, we seek to live a good and > > virtuous life through right thought, right speech and right action and > > this is called dharma. We must also be very careful about our thoughts, > > because thought creates, and thoughts make karmas - good,bad and mixed. > > > > > > I request you to listen to my humble understanding of Law of Karma. > > > > > > > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=dr.anjaneyulu%20goli%20AND%20col\ \ > > lection%3Aopensource_audio > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > praNAms > Hare Krishna > > It is also equally important to be noted that though shankara has given > utmost importance to jnAna, he never ever belittle the efficacy of > karma...Infact he, at some places in geeta bhAshya, praises the karma yOga > and says karma yOga is the stepping stone to achieve *saMpUrNa Ishwara > sharaNAgati*. He emphasizes that one should leave aside akarma (skipping > the veda vihita karma-s citing mundane excuses or due to lethargy) and > vikarma (prohibited karma-s in shAstra-s) and do the karma...When this > karma is done with an aptitude of ahaMkAra tyAga (selflessness), karma > phala tyAga (not expecting the fruit of his action), samatva buddhi > (tranquility of mind) and IshwarArpaNa (surrendering it to almighty) this > karma becomes karma yOga...Elsewhere in geeta bhAshya shankara says, > karmayOga nishTAyAH parama rahasyaM Ishwara sharaNAgatiM (the main secret > to karma yOga is that it leads to complete surrenderence to the > almighty)..So, in advaita, though karma is not a direct means to mOksha, it > is there and to be followed as a stepping stone towards chitta shuddhi and > jnAna sAdhana... > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar Namaskar Vedantins, While I agree with the above post, I would like to point out that my teacher has explained, that karma yoga buddhi, is not actually doing an action without expecting a result. It is rather doing an action, with an expected result in mind, but recognizing that the result is not in my hands. The result is in the hands of the 'Lord,' the giver of the result of action. Thus if I am thirsty, and wish to quench my thirst, I will pour myself a glass of water. Whether I actually am able to quench my thirst or not is another matter altogether as " there is many a slip between the cup and the lip. " So we do an action, expecting a result, but recognizing that the result is in the hands of the Lord. Through the cultivation of this attitude, we acquire the 'prasada buddhi,' the recognition that the results of all actions are given to us by the giver. Then, in the end, I think one sees there is only the giver here. The surrender is actually the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs belong to the Lord alone. So, that's the way my teacher explains it. Pranams, Durga Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 advaitin , " Durga " <durgaji108 wrote: > > advaitin , Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@> wrote: > > Namaskar Vedantins, > > So we do an action, expecting a result, but > recognizing that the result is in the hands > of the Lord. Through the cultivation of > this attitude, we acquire the 'prasada buddhi,' > the recognition that the results of all actions > are given to us by the giver. > > Then, in the end, I think one sees there is > only the giver here. The surrender is actually > the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs > belong to the Lord alone. > > This also clarifies/corrects my statements regarding self-effort and Ishvara. Both have their place, as far as our attaining to moksha. thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 19, 2009 --- On Tue, 5/19/09, Durga <durgaji108 wrote: Then, in the end, I think one sees there is only the giver here. The surrender is actually the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs belong to the Lord alone. --------------- Durgaji _ PraNAms You got the essence. The rest is academics. Living up to the teaching is the saadhana. The measure of chittasuddhi is explained by Krishna himself in the 6th chapter in terms of yogaaruuDhaH. Karma as yoga has to be done for purification of the mind until one is able to contemplate on the teachings. Once the mind is able to contemplate, the Upanishad itself teaches us - it is not this that you worship is God, it is that because of which you are able to hear, able to see, able to talk, or alive and able to think - that alone is Brahman not this that you worship. The mind has to give up the notion that I am kartaa and contemplate on that because of which all the karmendriyaas and jnaanedriayas are able to function. Hence all the instructions are given depending on the adhikaari. This is also where the help of your teacher also becomes important. The above upanishadic statement was also the instruction by a teacher to a mature student. Just my 2C Hari Om! Sadananda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 20, 2009 > > So we do an action, expecting a result, but > > recognizing that the result is in the hands > > of the Lord. Through the cultivation of > > this attitude, we acquire the 'prasada buddhi,' > > the recognition that the results of all actions > > are given to us by the giver. > > > > Then, in the end, I think one sees there is > > only the giver here. The surrender is actually > > the understanding, that body/mind and sense organs > > belong to the Lord alone. > > > This also clarifies/corrects my statements regarding self-effort and Ishvara. Both have their place, as far as our attaining to moksha. > > This is probably a deeper topic (which I don't want to trigger right now), but I seem to be contradicting myself above, since Durgaji's statement states that final surrender means the understanding that all sense of me and mine is resolved in the Lord. But I feel self-effort cannot be denied before such realization, when we accept the triad of jiva, Ishvara and Prakrithi as simultaneous in vyavahaarika. (I comment this because I have lately been confounded by this argument by a friend that everything is cause and effect including all sense of free-will or self-determinism. It is a tie-up with modern science that they were attempting with quotes from saints like Sri Ramakrishna, like ~ " All is the Divine Mother's will " .) thollmelukaalkizhu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
