Karma

[Guest guest]

Dear Sai-ji,

 

Does Swami P really say that " In the process of looking at horoscopes, a

gifted astrologer can determine what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying

and when, and prescribe certain Prayaschittas or rituals that can help

reduce or even eliminate the ill effects of the fructification of the bad

Karmas (paapas) " ?

 

I know I have expressed serious skepticism (to put it politely) about this

subject on the list before. Is there actual scriptural endorsement of

astrology in any of the prasthAna traya?

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of Indian Rediff

Monday, May 11, 2009 10:43 PM

advaitin

Re: Re: Karma

 

 

 

I am currently listening to Swami Paramarthananda's lecture on Chapter 4,

verses 37-38 or thereabouts. He has explained this very beautifully. I am

typing this as I am listening to the lecture.

 

<< >>

 

In the process of looking at horoscopes, a gifted astrologer can determine

what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying and when, and prescribe certain

Prayaschittas or rituals that can help reduce or even eliminate the ill

effects of the fructification of the bad Karmas (paapas).

 

<< >>

 

Sai

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4

4930/stime=1242078286/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear dennis-ji,

 

Pranams.

 

<Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the prasthAna

traya?>>>>>

 

The above statement of yours is something quite immatured. Is *prasthana-traya*

the *only* scriptural authority. Is not the Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of

Indian Philosphy.

 

Yes, certainly, Fengshuis, Chiero, Reikis etc. WHICH ARE BORROWED FROM WEST ARE

NOT MENTIONED in veda and can be brushed aside as baseless but there is a system

designed by our vedic rishis to fix certain timings for vedic anushtanas and

yagas.

 

Among the six anga's of Veda Purusha, Jyothisha is akin to eyes and hence this

shastra is very important. This shastra gives us details about stars, planets,

planetary positions and the relationship between these celestial objects and

life on earth. Our ancestors used this shastra primarily to know the planetary

positions

and therefore arrive at the correct time to perform rites laid out by shastras.

Unless under extraordinary circumstances, it wasn't used to predict how future

events would unfold. Unfortunately, the current trend is to use Jyotisha

exclusively for predicting the future. Instead, we should strive to use Jyotisha

only to determine the appropriate time for various anushtanas as prescribed by

the Shastras.Even Varahamihira says that while we can say good or bad things can

happen, the magnitude of the same (how good or how bad) is known only Brahma,

the creator. As the saying " Sadasanugrahah grahah " , no planets will ever affect

a person who performs his sadachara (duties). Moreover, its said in the Shastras

that the horoscope, Janma Nakshatra and Janma rasi must be kept a secret to the

extent possible. Thats why our ancestors seldom showed them to others for

prediction. Instead they were more focused on performing their duties and they

attained shreyas out of it.

 

Mantra shAstra is often compared with jyotiSha and Ayurveda. What the three have

in common is that they produce concrete results whether people beleive it or

not. One will also note that a good number of tAntrika-s are schloars in

jyotiSha and /or Ayurveda.

 

Entire Atharvana Veda is a practical system of implementation of the mantra

sastra for prayogas. Please understand that Brahmana portion and Upanishad

Portion both are a part and parcel of Veda. One cannot simply brush aside the

mantra aspect and accept the jnana aspect. Acharya Sankara in his purva mimamsa

bhashya gives a wonderful example of *Artha Jarati Nyaya* saying that people

don't accept certain things which are beyong their *intellectual* understanding.

 

with regards,

sriram

 

 

 

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Sai-ji,

>

> Does Swami P really say that " In the process of looking at horoscopes, a

> gifted astrologer can determine what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying

> and when, and prescribe certain Prayaschittas or rituals that can help

> reduce or even eliminate the ill effects of the fructification of the bad

> Karmas (paapas) " ?

>

> I know I have expressed serious skepticism (to put it politely) about this

> subject on the list before. Is there actual scriptural endorsement of

> astrology in any of the prasthAna traya?

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>

>

>

> advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

> Of Indian Rediff

> Monday, May 11, 2009 10:43 PM

> advaitin

> Re: Re: Karma

>

>

>

> I am currently listening to Swami Paramarthananda's lecture on Chapter 4,

> verses 37-38 or thereabouts. He has explained this very beautifully. I am

> typing this as I am listening to the lecture.

>

> << >>

>

> In the process of looking at horoscopes, a gifted astrologer can determine

> what Prarabdha Karmas will be fructifying and when, and prescribe certain

> Prayaschittas or rituals that can help reduce or even eliminate the ill

> effects of the fructification of the bad Karmas (paapas).

>

> << >>

>

> Sai

>

>

>

>

> .

>

>

> <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=15939/grpspId=1705075991/msgId=4

> 4930/stime=1242078286/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriram-ji,

 

 

 

I asked: " Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the

prasthAna traya? "

Your reply was that: " The above statement of yours is something quite

immature. Is *prasthAna-traya* the *only* scriptural authority? Is not the

Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy? "

 

 

 

I certainly did not mean to be disrespectful in my statement and apologize

if it seemed so. However, my understanding is that no action can bring about

enlightenment, only Self-knowledge. Therefore the prasthAna traya, in

particular the upaniShad-s, is essential in that it provides that knowledge

(best unfolded by a qualified teacher, of course). The karma kANDa, on the

other hand, though invaluable for the *immature* student in providing

guidance for acquiring sAdhanA chatuShTaya sampatti, is non-essential. This,

in my understanding is the position of Shankara, as expressed in the early

part of the brahmasUtra bhAShya. Also, you must appreciate that much of the

guidance given by karma kANDa, though relevant for someone brought up in

that tradition, is alien to, and inappropriate for a Westerner.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Sitaraji,

 

Pranamas,

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your response. I am happy that you are doing research on

karma theory. I wish you all the best in your venture. I wish, you

should also do research on Advitha. If one thinks Advithic truth is the

ultimate truth, then one has to drop all theories based on the physical

body as self, because Advithic truth is based on the soul, which is

the true self.

By accepting karma theory one is accepting the false self, as real

self, and world as reality, therefore there is no need for self inquiry

" Who am `I' " , because one has accepted the present

physical identity and world as reality. Self inquiry makes one realize

the fact that self is not the body. After knowing the fact that self is

not the body, then it is erroneous to think again as the body as self,

and holding the body based theories as reality. Thus karma theory

becomes a biggest obstacle in the path of inquiry and truth, because it

does not allow the seeker to cross the threshold of duality.

The physical body and the world which exits only in

waking/dream/duality are impermanent and illusory in nature, because

they appear and disappear as mind. The soul which is the formless

substance and witness of the duality is permanent. Therefore, whatever

is seen known and believed and experienced as real within the waking

also is as real as dream.

Adi Sankaracharya says in Aparokshanubhuti:-

88. When the whole universe, movable and immovable, is known to be

Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is negated, where is

then any room to say that the body is Atman?

89. O enlightened one, pass your time always contemplating on Atman

while you are experiencing all the results of Prarabdha; for it ill

becomes you to feel distressed.

90. The theory one hears of from the scripture, that Prarabdha does

not lose its hold upon one even after the origination of the knowledge

of Atman, is now being refuted.

91. After the origination of the knowledge of Reality, Prarabdha

verily ceases to exist, inasmuch as the body and the like become

non-existent; just as a dream does not exist on waking.

92. That Karma which is done in a previous life is known as Prarabdha

(which produces the present life). But such Karma cannot take the place

of Prarabdha (for a man of knowledge), as he has no other birth (being

free from ego).

93. Just as the body in a dream is superimposed (and therefore

illusory), so is also this body. How could there be any birth of the

superimposed (body), and in the absence of birth (of the body) where is

the room for that (i.e., Prarabdha) at all ?

94. The Vedanta texts declare ignorance to be verily the material

(cause) of the phenomenal world just as earth is of a jar. That

(ignorance) being destroyed, where can the universe subsist ?

95. Just as a person out of confusion perceives only the snake

leaving aside the rope, so does an ignorant person see only the

phenomenal world without knowing the reality?

96. The real nature of the rope being known, the appearance of the

snake no longer persists; so the substratum being known, the phenomenal

world disappears completely.

97. The body also being within the phenomenal world (and therefore

unreal), how could Prarabdha exist ? It is, therefore, for the

understanding of the ignorant alone that the Shruti speaks of Prarabdha.

98. " And all the actions of a man perish when he realizes that

(Atman) which is both the higher and the lower " . Here the clear use

of the plural by the Shruti is to negate Prarabdha as well.

99. If the ignorant still arbitrarily maintain this, they will not

only involve themselves into two absurdities but will also run the risk

of forgoing the Vedantic conclusion. So one should accept those Shrutis

alone from which proceeds true knowledge.

The above proves that the karma is reality only on the base of false

self, where one thinks body and the universes as reality. When one

becomes aware of the fact that, the true self is formless soul, then the

karma becomes part and parcel of illusion. My point is that, if one

accepts the karma theory as reality, he will never be able to come out

of the ignorance. And ignorance makes him believe the cycle of birth,

life and death as reality. Thus the freedom which one is seeking will

remain distant dream. For the one who accepts the birth life and death

as reality, Self-knowledge is impossible.

Thus it is necessary for the seeker of truth to know the fact that, the

body which is born, lives and dies is not the self. Since he is taking

the body to be the self, he is experiencing the duality as reality.

As Sri, Sankara says: When the whole universe, movable and immovable,

is known to be Atman, and thus the existence of everything else is

negated, where is then any room to say that the body is Atman.

If body is not the Ataman/self, then the karma theory has no meaning on

the standpoint of the truth. Thus no second thing exists other then

Ataman, therefore why to view the worldview on the standpoint of the

body as self when the body is the false self, and the

soul/Ataman is the true self.

Essence of Astvakara is: Realizing Ataman/soul as self, the liberation

is possible in this very life right here and right now, not in the next

life /next world.

Religion, theories scriptures and concept of god are created as tool

for conditioning the mass mind set, to control their individualized

mind, to the self judge, what is good and what is evil, with the fear of

conceptual god, who will in turn punish them, or reward them with good

or bad life, in life after life which is only illusion. And this fear

helps to maintain peace and harmony in the society to some extent. But

man and world exist within the mind and mind is myth on the standpoint

of the soul as self, thus all the theories based on the false hood, have

no relevance in the realm of the nondual truth.

Therefore, individual actions and conducts are not the means to acquire

self-knowledge.

Thank you,

Best wishes

With respect and regards

Santthosh.

advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote:

>

> Dear Santoshji, dear Bhaskaranji

>

> Pranams

>

> thank you for your input, pointing to ultimate truth. There is no

question that what you say is true on paramarthika level - meaning

ultimately true and real.

> In contrast to the theory of karma which is true on vyavaharika level

only - ultimately untrue and unreal.

>

> Theory of karma still serves a valuable purpose though. Even if I may

be able to look through it, it is still a very valuable concept for

seekers who do

> > believe their present physical identity [ego] as real, and world as

reality.

>

> It helps to relax and calm the mind, so they may be able to develop

more vairagya.

> It may help others to take more responsability and act more according

to dharma.

>

> So it can be important to understand the theory of karma in depths and

detail, in order to explain it to others, even if you yourself may not

need it anymore.

>

> Om Shanti

>

> Sitara

>

>

>

> advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " santthoshkumaar@

wrote:

> >

> >

> > Pranamas,

> >

> >

> >

> > The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

> > physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri,

> > Sankara declares the world itself is illusion,

>

[Guest guest]

Dear dennis,

 

Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings.

 

What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural authority* of

Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the term *sastra*

implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think

one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word

*science* is self-explanatory.

 

Now, regarding the maturity / immaturity levels of sadhaka for observance of

karmakanda, yes, as you said, varna ashrama dharma should be maintained. But,

that does not mean that the person who performs the karma kanda to the core like

Kanchi Mahaswamigal, the acharyas of Sringeri Pitha etc. are immatured. I think

i need not explain the word *athato* of the 1st sutra of BS which all of us

know what it means. One should know one's limitations before judging

themselves to be mature or immature. Their inner conscience is the benchmark

for sadhana.

 

Other than this, i have no issues.

 

with love and warm regards,

sriram

 

 

 

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Sriram-ji,

>

>

>

> I asked: " Is there actual scriptural endorsement of astrology in any of the

> prasthAna traya? "

> Your reply was that: " The above statement of yours is something quite

> immature. Is *prasthAna-traya* the *only* scriptural authority? Is not the

> Jyotishya one of the 6 systems of Indian Philosophy? "

>

>

>

> I certainly did not mean to be disrespectful in my statement and apologize

> if it seemed so. However, my understanding is that no action can bring about

> enlightenment, only Self-knowledge. Therefore the prasthAna traya, in

> particular the upaniShad-s, is essential in that it provides that knowledge

> (best unfolded by a qualified teacher, of course). The karma kANDa, on the

> other hand, though invaluable for the *immature* student in providing

> guidance for acquiring sAdhanA chatuShTaya sampatti, is non-essential. This,

> in my understanding is the position of Shankara, as expressed in the early

> part of the brahmasUtra bhAShya. Also, you must appreciate that much of the

> guidance given by karma kANDa, though relevant for someone brought up in

> that tradition, is alien to, and inappropriate for a Westerner.

>

>

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

>

>

> Dear dennis,

>

> Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings.

>

> What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural authority*

of Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the term *sastra*

implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations and i think

one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as the word

*science* is self-explanatory.

>

 

Sriramji,

One correction :

Jyotisha is not one of the shad-darsanas. It is one of the six

vedangas ( Limbs of veda, which are meant to be studied by the vedic

students ).

 

More details are available in wikipedia :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga

 

> with love and warm regards,

> sriram

>

 

Regards,

Raj.

[Guest guest]

PraNAms

 

In relation to Karma and enlightment - here is a sloka from Bhagavaan Ramana's

Sat DarshaNam.

 

karomi karmeti naro vijaanan

baadhyo bhavet karma phalam ca bhoktum|

vicaara dhuutaa hRidi kartRitaa cet

karmatrayam nashyati saa eva muktiH||

 

The one who thinking that 'I do work' or with the notion that I am doer

(kartRitva bhaava) is bound by that notion of doership and also by the

enjoyership of the fruits of those actions. But one who can shake off these

notions of doer ship and enjoyerships - kartRitvam and bhoktRitvam from the core

of his personality all these three karmaas (sancita, prarabda and aagaami)

perishes and that alone is liberation. Free from the notion of finitudes or

understanding of the divisionlessness.

 

The point is it is not that they are not there - it is there for those who think

they are doers and enjoyers. As long as that doership is there - one is bound

by that very notion of doership. Understanding I am never doer comes only with

vicaara or inquiry of my true nature and for that a frame of mind or purity of

the mind , what Shankara calls as saadhana catuShTaya sampatti, the four-fold

qualifications, is required. The apparent bondage of the karmas will become

apparent only when the truth is recognized. Until then the apparent appears to

be real.

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriram,

 

 

 

<< As the term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts &

observations and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove

its authority as the word *science* is self-explanatory.>>

 

 

 

I do not feel that you have a very solid foundation for your argument here.

Phrenology, for example, was an accepted science in the early 19th century.

The existence of phlogiston was widely accepted by chemists in the 18th

century. It was once accepted by everyone that the earth was the centre of

the universe. Need I go on?

 

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " rajkumarknair " <rajkumarknair wrote:

>

> advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:

> >>

> More details are available in wikipedia :

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga

>

 

Namaste,

 

Another good reference is :

 

http://kamakoti.org/newlayout/template/hindudharma.html/10/1/hindu/Jyotisa

 

(Chapters 1-9) Discourse by Kanchi Paramacharya

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

on the dot ,raj kumar ji.

 

suresh.

 

advaitin , " rajkumarknair " <rajkumarknair wrote:

>

> advaitin , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear dennis,

> >

> > Pranams. Forgive me if i have hurt anybody's feelings.

> >

> > What raised my eyebrow is your blunt statement seeking *scriptural

authority* of Jyotishya Sastra which is one among the shad-darshanas. As the

term *sastra* implicitly imply *science* which is based on facts & observations

and i think one need not show any scriptural evidences to prove its authority as

the word *science* is self-explanatory.

> >

>

> Sriramji,

> One correction :

> Jyotisha is not one of the shad-darsanas. It is one of the six

> vedangas ( Limbs of veda, which are meant to be studied by the vedic

> students ).

>

> More details are available in wikipedia :

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanga

>

> > with love and warm regards,

> > sriram

> >

>

> Regards,

> Raj.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sastri-ji,

 

Apologies for the delay in posting this comment. I did begin a response

straight away but then deleted it. But I was not altogether happy with your

statement: " The causal body is only avidya. It is not the store-house of

vAsanas. They are part of the subtle body. "

 

I, too, might have made such a response and thought no more about it. But

surely, the individual body and mind is in an unmanifest state in suShupti

and all minds and gross matter are in the causal form in pralaya. Must it

not, therefore, be the case that vAsanA-s are stored in the causal body for

some of the time? (Or am I just being pedantic - one of my failings, I

know!)

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of snsastri

Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:40 AM

advaitin

Re: Karma

 

 

Dear Sitara-ji and Mouna-ji,

 

<< >>

 

3. samskAras-These are the impressions left after cognitions. A person sees

something which attracts his attention, but forgets about it afterwards.

This cognition leaves an impression in his mind, which is called a samskAra.

This samskAra rouses, at some future time, the memory of the thing he had

seen.

The word samskAra is also used in the sense of vAsana. Good vAsanas are

called samskarasa and bad vAsanas are called vasanas. A person of good and

noble qualities is described as one with a good samskAra.

Mounaji-- The causal body is only avidya. It is not the store-house of

vAsanas. They are part of the subtle body.

 

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

 

_

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

 

> I, too, might have made such a response and thought no more about it. But

> surely, the individual body and mind is in an unmanifest state in suShupti

> and all minds and gross matter are in the causal form in pralaya. Must it

> not, therefore, be the case that vAsanA-s are stored in the causal body for

> some of the time? (Or am I just being pedantic - one of my failings, I

> know!)

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

Shloka 98 of vivekacUDAmaNi ( vAgAdi panca----) says that the subtle body is

made up of eight components, of which karma is one. In deep sleep also the

subtle body exists as a separate entity, though it is dormant. In pralaya also,

each subtle body must remain separate. Otherwise how can it come out as a

distinct entity at the time of the next creation? Therefore the subtle body

cannot merge in the causal body either during sleep or in pralaya. When it is

said that it is in causal form it can only mean that it is not active, but

dormant. The individuality of each subtle body has to continue until it is

destroyed on liberation.

Moreover, I have not seen it stated anywhere that the karma goes into the

causal body during sleep. The causal body is avidya alone.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Dear Sastri-ji,

 

This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B

and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it

is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I

made:

 

" I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep,

the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding

this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become

manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored

in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by

the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in

waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are

associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to

fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless,

there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! "

 

Hope we can agree on this!

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of snsastri

Saturday, May 16, 2009 5:38 AM

advaitin

Re: Karma

 

 

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

Shloka 98 of vivekacUDAmaNi ( vAgAdi panca----) says that the subtle body is

made up of eight components, of which karma is one. In deep sleep also the

subtle body exists as a separate entity, though it is dormant. In pralaya

also, each subtle body must remain separate. Otherwise how can it come out

as a distinct entity at the time of the next creation? Therefore the subtle

body cannot merge in the causal body either during sleep or in pralaya. When

it is said that it is in causal form it can only mean that it is not active,

but dormant. The individuality of each subtle body has to continue until it

is destroyed on liberation.

Moreover, I have not seen it stated anywhere that the karma goes into the

causal body during sleep. The causal body is avidya alone.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

 

__.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dennis - PraNAms

 

Mouna asked me in private the questions you have raised.

 

Shree Sastriji is correct. This is the way I would understand the teaching -

According to advaita avidya or ignorance which is the causal state has two fold

aspect. one is aavaraNa, the covering aspect, and the other is viskhepa, the

projecting aspect.

 

In deep sleep, the projecting power is dormant since for that mind supported by

consciousness is required. Hence in the deep sleep state only the aavaraNa is in

full bloom. You cannnot differentiate any thing in ignorance hence it is

anandamayam. Likes and dislikes the expressions of vaasanas are dormant too

Hence ManDukya defines deep sleep state as - na kancana kaamam kaamayate na

kancana svapnam pasyati, tat suShuptam -

Any further inquiry about ignorance will not be fruitful, since it involves lack

of knowledge. Knowledge which is part of subtle body is in dormant state covered

by the aavaraNa shakti. Even for jnaani, in the deep sleep state the knowledge

is covered. He sleeps as jnaani. Identified with consciousness he realizes the

prakriti BMI is dormant in the deep sleep state.

 

If mind is considered as thought flow, any flow involves direction. The

direction is provided by the vaasanaas or one can think of the grooves in the

mind that channel the thought flow. In deep sleep state the aavaraNa shakti

coveres the mind and the grooves - like in a pitch dark room I cannot see even

where the light switch is, even though it is there.

 

Hope this Helps

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

 

--- On Sat, 5/16/09, Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

 

 

This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B

and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it

is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I

made:

[Guest guest]

Dear Sada-ji,

 

I do dispute any of what you say but the fact must remain that vAsanA-s must

still be present in the deep sleep state, even though they are dormant.

'Dormant' does not mean 'absent'. Sorry to labor this point. I don't

believe I have any misunderstanding here; I am just trying to clarify the

point for Mouna-ji.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of kuntimaddi sadananda

Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:54 AM

advaitin

RE: Re: Karma

 

 

 

<< >>

 

In deep sleep, the projecting power is dormant since for that mind supported

by consciousness is required. Hence in the deep sleep state only the

aavaraNa is in full bloom.

 

<< >>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> " I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep,

> the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding

> this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become

> manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored

> in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by

> the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in

> waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are

> associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to

> fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless,

> there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! "

>

> Hope we can agree on this!

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or ignorance) in

all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension- which Swami

Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only. The vasanas are

there in all the three states, but they become manifest only in waking and

dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states, though it is

dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the subtle body in the

dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact in sleep also. So what

is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas shift to the causal body in

sleep?

 

Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another. The

causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a jIva merge

in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva when he wakes

up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain separate and so

they have to be only in the subtle body which remains separate for each jiva

even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA, the individuality of each

jIva will cease.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

> Dear Sastri-ji,

>

> This was why I made the point about being pedantic. If A is contained in B

> and B is then contained in C, A must also 'effectively' be in C, even if it

> is still 'in the form of A'. Here is part of an off-line statement that I

> made:

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

This is in continuation of my prev. post on this subject.

Your example of A being contained in B and B being contained in C would apply if

the subtle body merges in, or is contained in, the causal body in sleep. This is

not so. All the three bodies remain separate in sleep. So the example does not

apply.

S.N.Sastri

[Guest guest]

Dear Sastri-ji,

 

I'm sure we are actually saying the same thing here, just emphasizing

different words and seeming to bring out a different meaning but I will have

one last go!

 

The MU itself states in mantra 5 (vyaShTi standpoint)that " The

Consciousness principle in this third state is called kAraNa Atma, a state

which is ekIbhUta - all the differences have merged (c.f. all wax dolls

melted down into an undifferentiated mass). " (Swami P's commentary)

 

And in mantra 6 (samaShTi viewpoint) that " It is the material cause of the

whole universe. c.f. a lump of clay is potential form for all vessels made

of clay and, more particularly, the form (essentially spherical) of the lump

is the potential form for all geometrical shapes of those vessels. Therefore

clay has all the forms in unmanifest state. "

 

If the mind (vyaShTi or samaShTi) were still effectively 'intact' in

laya/pralaya as you put it, then it couldn't be said to have 'merged'. We

would have to say that pralaya was something like a warehouse, where all the

subtle bodies were stored ready for the next creation. I don't think this is

what is meant. What I believe is meant is that the minds are, as if dumped

to hard disk. I.e. the information needed to recreate them is held 'in

unmanifest form'. At the time of the next creation, the disk is 'read' and

the executable program is recreated in memory. (Apologies for the computer

metaphor - I spent all my working life with computers!)

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin [advaitin ] On Behalf

Of snsastri

Saturday, May 16, 2009 12:32 PM

advaitin

Re: Karma

 

 

 

Dear Dennis-ji,

Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or

ignorance) in all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension-

which Swami Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only.

The vasanas are there in all the three states, but they become manifest only

in waking and dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states,

though it is dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the

subtle body in the dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact

in sleep also. So what is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas

shift to the causal body in sleep?

 

Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another.

The causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a

jIva merge in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva

when he wakes up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain

separate and so they have to be only in the subtle body which remains

separate for each jiva even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA,

the individuality of each jIva will cease.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

 

_

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" Dennis Waite " <dwaite wrote:

>

the computer metaphor - I spent all my working life with computers!)

>

Dear DennisJi, Pranams,

 

The computer metaphor is a good one in relation to your point since we

need to remember that all data existing in it is only a " subtle "

dualistic combination of 1 and 0 (ones and zeros). When we " dump " data

(either by creating, manipulating/storing or bringing back) to the hard

drive, the data is actually an " undiffferentiated " mass of ones and

zeros held together by their " potential " arrangement, their " patterns of

probabilities " (vasanas). Even is we dump all individual data of all

existent computers into one super-server, their potential arrangement or

patterns will be there to be extracted at any time in their original

form.

Computers mean the actual " gross " machine and the " subtle " software. But

in any case, for all the thing to work out, the fundamental piece is

power, electronic energy, electricity, to make it al all " alive " .

Otherwise, it's all a matter of " apparent " (mythia) ones and zeros as

though existing " someplace " ...

 

All the best,

Mouna

[Guest guest]

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> advaitin , " Dennis Waite " <dwaite@> wrote:

> >

> > " I think one has to concede that, since the mind is resolved in deep sleep,

> > the vAsanA-s have to be stored in the causal state. There is no avoiding

> > this conclusion. The mitigating point is that the vAsanA-s only become

> > manifest in the gross and subtle states, where they can be said to be stored

> > in the subtle form. Swami P differentiates waking and dream from sleep by

> > the words ignorance and error. Both ignorance and error are present in

> > waking and dream but ignorance only in deep sleep. Since vAsanA-s are

> > associated with the error aspect (i.e. we perceive and act according to

> > fructifying saMskAra), this is where they are meaningful. Nevertheless,

> > there is no escaping the fact that they must be somewhere in deep sleep! "

> >

> > Hope we can agree on this!

> >

> > Best wishes,

> >

> > Dennis

>

> Dear Dennis-ji,

> Mandukya karrika says that there is agrahaNam (non-apprehension or ignorance)

in all the three states, but anyathAgrahaNam (wrong apprehension- which Swami

Paramarthananda refers to as error) in waking and dream only. The vasanas are

there in all the three states, but they become manifest only in waking and

dream. The subtle body itself exists in all the three states, though it is

dormant in sleep. It is accepted that the vasanas are in the subtle body in the

dream and waking states. This subtle body remains intact in sleep also. So what

is the need or basis for holding that the vasanas shift to the causal body in

sleep?

>

> Moreover, it is the subtle body that distinguishes one person from another.

The causal body is avidya, which is the same for all. If the vasanas of a jIva

merge in avidya during sleep, how will they come back to the same jIva when he

wakes up? Even in pralaya the vasanas of each jIva have to remain separate and

so they have to be only in the subtle body which remains separate for each jiva

even in pralaya. If they all merge in avidya or mAyA, the individuality of each

jIva will cease.

> Best wishes,

> S.N.Sastri

>

 

 

Dear Dennisji and Sastriji,

i have recently joined your group and this is my

first post. i have read previous few posts on this topic written by you. i would

like to add on to this discusion. Sastriji said that vasanas cannot be deposited

in the causal body as it is just avidya while subtle bodies are separate in

everyone. i would like to draw your attention to the fact that Vedanta Sara of

Sadananda mentions that causal bodies are different in each jiva and the

collective ie the aggregates of these causal bodies is Isvara where during

cosmic sleep the universe is dissolved. Taking the individual aspect it is known

as Prajna and it is separate in everyone. So vasanas can merge in the causal

body.

Regards,

Vaibhav.