Karma

April 3, 2006

, " Bob OHearn " <hrtbeat7

wrote:

,

" trueadept " <trueadept@> wrote:

> does it exist...or merely a concept? proofs?

" Sri Ramana regarded the law of Karma as a manifestation of God's

will. He said that prior to Self-realisation there is a personal

God,

Iswara, who controls each person's destiny. It is Iswara who has

ordained that everyone must suffer the consequences of his actions

and it is Iswara who selects the sequences of activities that each

person must undergo in each lifetime. One cannot escape from

Iswara's

jurisdiction while one still identifies with the activities of the

body. The only way to become free of his authority is to transcend

Karma completely by realising the Self... " from the Preamble by David

Godman

________

Question: Who is the projectionist? What is the mechanism, which

selects a small portion of the Sanchita Karma (The store of Karmic

debts accumulated from previous births) and then decides that it

shall be experienced as Prarabdha Karma (That part of one's Sanchita

Karma which must be worked out in the present life.)?

Sri Ramana Mahrshi: Individuals have to suffer their Karmas but

Iswara manages to make the best of their Karmas for his purpose. God

manipulates the fruits of Karma but he does not add or take away

from

it. The subconscious of man is a warehouse of good and bad Karma.

Iswara chooses from this warehouse what he sees will best suit the

spiritual evolution at the time of each man, whether pleasant or

painful. Thus there is nothing arbitrary.

Question: In `Upadesa Saram', you say that Karma bears fruit by the

ordinance of God (Karta). Does this mean that we reap the

consequences of Karma solely because God wills it?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: In this verse Karta (God) means Iswara. He is

the one who distributes the fruits of actions to each person

according to his Karma. That means that he is the manifest Brahman.

The real Brahman is unmanifest and without motion. It is only the

manifest Brahman that is named as Iswara. He gives the fruit to each

person according to his actions (Karma). That means that Iswara is

only an agent and that he gives wages according to the labour done.

That is all. Without this Sakti (power) of Iswara, this Karma would

not take place. That is why Karma is said to be on its own, inert.

Questioner: The present experiences are the result of past Karma. If

we know the mistakes committed before, we can rectify them.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If one mistake is rectified there yet remains

the whole Sanchita Karma from former births which is going to give

you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more you

prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify

your Karma, the more it accumulates. Find the root of Karma and cut

it off.

Question: Does the Karma theory mean that the world is the result of

action and reaction? If so, action and reaction of what?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Until realisation there will be Karma, that is

action and reaction. After realisation there will be no Karma and no

world.

Question: If I am not the body why am I responsible for the

consequences of my good and bad actions?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not the body and do not have the

idea `I am the doer', the consequences of your good or bad actions

will not affect you. Why do you say about the actions the body

performs `I do this' or `I did that'? As long as you identify

yourself with the body like that you are affected by the

consequences

of the actions, that is to say, while you identify with the body you

accumulate good and bad Karma.

Questioner: But since I am not the body I am not really responsible

for the consequences of good or bad actions.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If you are not, why do you bother about the

question?

Questioner: In some places it is stated that human effort is the

source of all strength and that it can even transcend Karma. In

others it is said that it is all divine grace. It is not clear which

of them is correct.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, some schools of philosophy say that there

is no God other than Karma of the previous birth, that is Karma done

in the present birth in accordance with the scriptures is known as

Purushkara (human effort), that the previous and present Karmas meet

for a head-on fight like rams and that the one that is weaker gets

eliminated. That is why these people say that one should strengthen

Purushkara. If you ask such people what the origin of Karma is, they

say that such a question is not to be raised as it is like the

eternal question, `Which is earlier, the seed or the tree?'

Debates such as this are mere arguments, which can never arrive at

the final truth. That is why I say first find out who you are. If

one

asks, `Who am I? How did I get this Dosha (fault) of life?', the `I'

will subside and one will realise the Self. If one does this

properly

the idea of Dosha will be eliminated and peace will be obtained. Why

even obtained? The Self remains as it is.

The essence of Karma is to know the truth of oneself by

enquiring `Who am I, the doer, who begins to do Karmas?' Unless the

doer of Karmas, the ego, is annihilated through enquiry, the perfect

peace of supreme bliss, which is the result of Karma Yoga, cannot be

achieved.

Question: Can people wipe out the consequences of their bad actions

by doing Mantras or Japa (repeating God's name) or will they

necessarily have to experience them?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: If the feeling `I am doing Japa' is not there,

the bad actions committed by a man will not stick to him. If the

feeling `I am doing the Japa' is there, the consequences of bad

actions will persist.

Question: Does the Punya (merit accumulated from virtuous acts)

extinguish Papa (demerit accumulated from sinful acts)?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as the feeling `I am doing' is there,

one must experience the result of one's acts, whether they are good

or bad. How is it possible to wipe out one act with another? When

the

feeling that `I am doing' is lost, nothing affects a man. Unless one

realises the Self, the feeling `I am doing' will never vanish. For

one who realises the Self where is the need for Japa? Where is the

need for Tapas (austerity)? Owing to the force of Prarabdha life

goes

on, but he who has realised the Self does not wish for anything.

Prarabdha Karma is of three categories, Ichha, Anichha and Parechha

(personally desired, without desire and due to others' desire). For

the one who has realised the Self, there is no Ichha-Prarabdha but

the two others, Anichha and Parechha, remain. Whatever a Jnani (Self-

realised) does is for others only. If there are things to be done by

him for others, he does them but the results do not affect him.

Whatever be the actions that such people do, there is no Punya and

no

Papa attached to them. But they do only what is proper according to

the accepted standard of the world – nothing else.

Those who know that what is to be experienced by them in this life

is

only what is already destined in their Prarabdha will never feel

perturbed about what is to be experienced. Know that all one's

experiences will be thrust upon one whether one wills them or not.

Question: The realised man has no further Karma. He is not bound by

his Karma. Why should he still remain within his body?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Who asks this question? Is it the realised man

or the Ajnani (ignorant)? Why should you bother what the Jnani (Self-

realised) does or why he does anything? Look after yourself. You are

now under the impression you are the body and so you think that the

Jnani also has a body. Does the Jnani say he has a body? He may look

to you as if he has a body and he may appear to be doing things with

the body, as others do, but he himself knows that he is bodiless.

The

burnt rope still looks like a rope, but it can't serve as a rope if

you try to bind anything with it. A Jnani is like that – he may look

like other people, but this is only an outer appearance. So long as

one identifies oneself with the body, all this is difficult to

understand.

That is why it is sometimes said in reply to such questions, `The

body of the Jnani will continue till the force of Prarabdha works

itself out, and after the Prarabdha is exhausted it will drop off'.

An illustration made use of in this connection is that of an arrow

already discharged which will continue to advance and strike its

target. But the truth is the Jnani has transcended all Karmas,

including the Prarabdha Karma, and he is not bound by the body or

its

Karmas.

Not even an iota of Prarabdha exists for those who uninterruptedly

attend to space of consciousness, which always shines as `I am',

which is not confined in the vast physical space, and which pervades

everywhere without limitations. Such alone is the meaning of the

ancient saying, `There is no fate for those who reach or experience

the heavens'.

Question: If a thing comes to me without any planning or working for

it and I enjoy it, will there be no bad consequences from it?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: It is not so. Every act must have its

consequences. If anything comes your way by reason of Prarabdha, you

can't help it. If you take what comes, without any special

attachment, and without any desire for more of it or for a

repetition

of it, it will not harm you by leading to further births. On the

other hand, if you enjoy it with great attachment and naturally

desire for more of it, it is bound to lead to more and more births.

Question: According to the astrological science, predictions are

made

about coming events taking into account the influence of the stars.

Is that true?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: So long as you have the feeling of egotism all

that is true. When the egotism is destroyed, even if they appear to

see they do not really see.

Destiny is the result of past action. It concerns the body. Let the

body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned with it? Why do you

pay attention to it? Should anything happen, it happens as the

result

of one's past actions, of divine will and of other factors.

Question: The present is said to be due to past Karma. Can we

transcend the past Karma by our free will now?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: See what the present is. If you do this you

will

understand what is affected by or has a past or a future, what is

ever-present and always free and what remains unaffected by the past

or future or by any past Karma.

Question: Is there such a thing as free will?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense

of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will.

But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self-

enquiry), the divine will will act and guide the course of events.

Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and

fate.

Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's

life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or

profession,

marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it

be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have

already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is

in

my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already

decided

that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move

the fan like this and put it down here?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and

whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when

it came into existence.

Question: What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for

his actions?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and

acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify

himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered

inevitable by Prarabdha and a man is free either to identify himself

with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be

detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities.

Question: So free will is a myth?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Free will holds the field in association with

individuality. As long as individuality lasts there is free will.

All

the scriptures are based on this fact and they advise directing the

free will in the right channel.

Find out to whom free will or destiny matters. Find out where they

come from, and abide in their source. If you do this, both of them

are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these

questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at

peace.

Question: If what is destined to happen will happen, is there any

use

in prayer or effort or should we just remain idle?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are only two ways to conquer destiny or

be

independent of it. One is to enquire for whom is this destiny and

discover that only the ego is bound by destiny and not the Self, and

that the ego is non-existent. The other way is to kill the ego by

completely surrendering to the Lord, by realising one's helplessness

and saying all the time, `Not I but Thou, O Lord', giving up all

sense of " I " and `mine' and leaving it to the Lord to do what He

likes with you. Surrender can never be regarded as complete so long

as the devotee wants this or that from the Lord. True surrender is

love of God for the sake of love and nothing else, not even for the

sake of liberation. In other words, complete effacement of the ego

is

necessary to conquer destiny, whether you achieve this effacement

through self-enquiry or through Bhakti Marga (path of devotion).

__/\__

--- End forwarded message ---

May 20, 2007

GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote:

GuruRatings , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> wrote:

>

> Karma is without sides, it is an act of creation fulfilling itself.

>

> It is who we are, who we are becoming and it is our return to the ocean

> of awareness from which karma arises.

>

> We are 'stuck' in our karma. Hook line and sinker.

> There is no exit, save death. There was no entrance, save birth.

>

> Karma is the universal act of Being, perpetuating itself through

> biology, sensing itself through every -ology & ism available and not yet

> discovered. Understanding itself through relativity, (light of

> awareness), and moving beyond itself into Universality. This can be

> called the evolution of the Karmic-Self. In this process, the 'world'

> out there takes on a different role and meaning, and the Karmic-Self

> involution/evolution becomes the destiny through which we move into as a

> species of Karmic-selves, re-cognizing the ability to create our own

> realities. (Up to this point, reality is still being created by our

> Karmic-Selves, however, this reality is lying dormant, undiscovered.)

>

> We are The Sum Total. Including huge bits of nothingness. We chew on

> sustainable and manageable small bits and pieces, cognizing a little bit

> at a time, as time immemorial itself, with nowhere to go, and nothing to

> do.

>

> Peace,

> Anna

Namaste Anna et al,

Karma means action and is really a memory, within illusion and based

one's own 'morals'. Ultimately it is a learning process based on

action and reaction to oneself. It is a programming and as there is no

time the reaction to the action actually is programmed into the mind

at the same time as the action. This brings up the fact that as there

is no time, we cannot change anything anyway, and only have the chance

to change our attitudes to a given situation. Compassion,non violence,

as resistance to violence, are the main guidelines the universal is

ultimately Peace or complete non movement. And even that is an

illusion...............Tony.

--- End forwarded message ---

May 23, 2007

Dear Anna, Your description of Karma was beautiful.In BhagavanSelfanabebe57 <kailashana wrote: Karma is without sides, it is an act of creation fulfilling itself.It is who we are, who we are becoming and it is our return to the ocean of awareness from which karma arises.We are 'stuck' in our karma. Hook line and

sinker.There is no exit, save death. There was no entrance, save birth.Karma is the universal act of Being, perpetuating itself through biology, sensing itself through every -ology & ism available and not yet discovered. Understanding itself through relativity, (light of awareness), and moving beyond itself into Universality. This can be called the evolution of the Karmic-Self. In this process, the 'world' out there takes on a different role and meaning, and the Karmic-Self involution/evolution becomes the destiny through which we move into as a species of Karmic-selves, re-cognizing the ability to create our own realities. (Up to this point, reality is still being created by our Karmic-Selves, however, this reality is lying dormant, undiscovered.)We are The Sum Total. Including huge bits of nothingness. We chew on sustainable and manageable small bits and pieces, cognizing a little bit at a time, as time

immemorial itself, with nowhere to go, and nothing to do.Peace,AnnaI Am The PerfectionI am the perfection of LifeTotal, complete, and whole.I am vast, boundless, andLimitless,I contain all that is,All that has been,All that can becomeIn the fullnessOf this present moment.I am endless transformationThe creative essenceThe substance of form,The ocean of possibilities,The infinitely large,And the infinitely small,Swirl within me,I contain all moments,Minutes, hours, and seconds,Yet I am timeless, eternalAnd beyond measure.I am always togetherYet I appear to live apartI am one bodyYet I cannot be touched,I am one mind,Yet thought cannot contain me.I feel emotionsYet

pleasure and painVanish in my complete bliss.I am sound, light, and eye.Yet I cannot be described.All that is I am.All this is I am.All that is I amYou and I,I and You.No difference,No other,One LifeIs AllI Am.Larry Epston3/28/40 - 5/16/07

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April 11, 2009

And this is dedicated to you...

Abandoning all DHARMAS of the body, mind, and intellect,

take refuge in Me alone.

I will liberate you from all sins; grieve not.

Bhagavad Gita, Ch. 18, Verse 66

-

ramesh chivukula

Friday, April 10, 2009 3:42 AM

KARMA

Dear Radheji ,

This piece is dedicated to you ...

Let not thoughts of karma creep in

Karma affects only the outer ,

Never the inner ;

Thoughts of Karma

Creates only more karma

In our personal equation with God,

Karma has no role or place.

love

ramesh

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19:02:00

May 5, 2009

Hi Max,

Karma is said to have three aspects.

Sanchita karma - the accumulated Karma from all previous lives. The effects

of actions done in the past which are yet to bear fruit.

Prarabdha karma - that portion of Sanchita Karma that is due to bear fruit

in this current lifetime.

Agami karma - the karma we create in this current lifetime which adds to the

'stock' of sanchita karma and which will be bear fruit as the prarabdha

karma of some future life.

The term " soul " is likely to mean jiva - which is that consciousness which

is ignorant of its true nature (Atman, the Self) and is mistakenly

identified with the body. Out of this ignorance and misidentification the

sense of ego ( " I am this... " ) arises.

What Bhagavan, and Advaita Vedanta, point out to us it that the " I am "

(Aham) is real, while " I am this... " (Idam, the ego) is unreal.

" Brahman abides as Aham in everyone. " (Talk 266)

Peter

>

> On Behalf Of maxamehc

> 05 May 2009 05:04

>

> Karma

>

> The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with

> their prarabha karma. Whatever is destined not to happen will

> not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen

> will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain.

> The best course, therefore, is to remain silent.

>

> Can someone please explain what prarabdha karma is.

> Also is the mentioned 'soul' reffering to something that is

> in the mind-ego-illusion?

>

> Thank you,

> peace

>

> ---

>

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> Harsha

>

May 9, 2009

Dear all,

Namaste

Researching the topic of karma there are two questions I cannot find an answer

to. I would appreciate if members of our list would help.

There is sanchitta karma as a pool of individual karma out of which prarabdha

karma is taken, to form the particular parcel fitting this particular BMI.

First question:

Where is prarabdha karma " stored " while the body is alive? Is it in the mind?

And where is sanchitta while the cycle of incarnation lasts? Is it in the mind,

just not activated? Or is it, as one source suggested, stored somewhere in

ethereal realms – which sounds rather vague, not very satisfying.

So, though this question may sound naïve, I would like to know the " location " of

karma.

Is there a concept in Vedanta to answer this question?

The second question: I came across the expression kriyamana synonymous to agami

karma. Are they really the same? Somewhere else it said that kriyamana is the

portion of agami karma that comes to fruition in this life. Is this the right

definition?

Om Shanti

Sitara

May 10, 2009

advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote:

> There is sanchitta karma as a pool of individual karma out of which prarabdha

karma is taken, to form the particular parcel fitting this particular BMI.

>

> First question:

>

> Where is prarabdha karma " stored " while the body is alive? Is it in the mind?

>

> And where is sanchitta while the cycle of incarnation lasts? Is it in the

mind, just not activated? Or is it, as one source suggested, stored somewhere in

ethereal realms – which sounds rather vague, not very satisfying.

>

> So, though this question may sound naïve, I would like to know the " location "

of karma.

> Is there a concept in Vedanta to answer this question?

>

> The second question: I came across the expression kriyamana synonymous to

agami karma. Are they really the same? Somewhere else it said that kriyamana is

the portion of agami karma that comes to fruition in this life. Is this the

right definition?

>

> Om Shanti

>

> Sitara

Dear Sitara-ji,

BrihadAranyaka Up. 4.4.2 says that when a person dies his knowledge, accumulated

karma and impressions of past experience (vAsanas) go along with the subtle body

which leaves the gross body. The sanchita karma is thus stored in the subtle

body. Out of this sanchita karma a portion becomes the prArabdha karma which

produces the next gross body. This prArabdha karma is also stored in the subtle

body and gradually gets exhausted, while fresh karma is added. The sanchita

karma at the end of this life again goes along with the subtle body on death.

;kriyamANa' means `what is being done'. So the karma acquired during the present

life is kriyamANa and is the same as AgAmi karma. No part of the AgAmi karma

comes into fruition in this life. It will be added to the karma brought forward

from earlier births and the total will be the sanchita karma at the time of

death. A portion of this total sanchita karma will become the prArabdha karma

for the next birth. `prArabdha' means `what has started', i.e., what has started

yielding fruit. sanchita means `accumulated'. Agami means what is to accrue in

the future, that is, after the present birth.

Regards,

S.N.Sastri

May 10, 2009

hare krishna, namaskarams,

just a line of thought on the above.

just like the fructified fruit has the seed to become as many fruits the whole

cycle of the karmas goes through the various stages of forming the seed to the

fruit.

the only way is to cut at the root to stop this cycle which is the release from

the cycle of birth and death.

may lord krishna blesss us all.

baskaran.

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May 10, 2009

Pranamas,

The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri,

Sankara declares the world itself is illusion, and Brahman is real, then

what value the karma theory has when the world is illusion, because man

is part and parcel of the illusory world. Therefore, one has to view and

judge the worldview on the standpoint of Brahman [Ataman/true self] in

order to overcome the duality, which one is experiencing it as reality.

The individuality is reality within the illusory world. Therefore, all

the theories created within the illusion on the base of false entity,

within the false experience, has to be the part and parcel of the

illusion. Thus it is necessary to realize the fact that Ataman is the

true self and all else is illusion, to overcome the illusory concept of

cycle of birth, life and death. Thus to understand and assimilate Sri,

Sankara's Advitic truth, seeker has to do his own home work

through inquiry, analysis and reasoning on the true base, without mixing

religion, scriptures, theories concept of god and yoga.

Santthosh

advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote:

>

> Dear all,

>

> Namaste

>

> Researching the topic of karma there are two questions I cannot find

an answer to. I would appreciate if members of our list would help.

>

> There is sanchitta karma as a pool of individual karma out of which

prarabdha karma is taken, to form the particular parcel fitting this

particular BMI.

>

> First question:

>

> Where is prarabdha karma " stored " while the body is alive? Is it in

the mind?

>

> And where is sanchitta while the cycle of incarnation lasts? Is it in

the mind, just not activated? Or is it, as one source suggested, stored

somewhere in ethereal realms – which sounds rather vague, not very

satisfying.

>

> So, though this question may sound naïve, I would like to know the

" location " of karma.

> Is there a concept in Vedanta to answer this question?

>

> The second question: I came across the expression kriyamana synonymous

to agami karma. Are they really the same? Somewhere else it said that

kriyamana is the portion of agami karma that comes to fruition in this

life. Is this the right definition?

>

> Om Shanti

>

> Sitara

>

May 10, 2009

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> BrihadAranyaka Up. 4.4.2 says that when a person dies his knowledge,

accumulated karma and impressions of past experience (vAsanas) go along

with the subtle body which leaves the gross body. The sanchita karma is

thus stored in the subtle body.

>

Dear Sri SastriJi, my Pranams

Isn't the causal body (both at the viashti/individual and

samashti/universal levels) the main storage of vasanas since vasanas are

the very core of it (ergo karma)?

Could we say, in addition to the above statement, that both the subtle

and the causal body are the carrier/storage place of vasanas that will

fructify into Samchita, Prarabdha and Agami/Kriyamana?

Could you confirm the role of the causal body in relation to this?

Thank you in advance.

Yours in Bhagavan,

Mouna

May 10, 2009

Dear Sri Shastriji,

Pranams

thank you for your replies which have perfectly anwered my questions and

as to the second answer, brought up another question.

You mention that

>No part of the AgAmi karma comes into fruition in this life.

This of course makes perfect sense if agami means

>what is to accrue in the future, that is, after the present birth.

Still I am surprised about this statement as I heard Swami Paramarthanandaji say

that experiences in this life are determined by a mixture of prarabdha- and

agami karma.(of which the biggest portion must be prarabdha; from my notes on

Swamijis lectures on Tattvabodha, Law of karma).

He gives the example of seeds, some fructify after a longer, some after shorter

period of time. Is it not that there are karmas that come to fruition in the

same life time? If one can call them neither prarabdha karma, nor agami karma,

under which name do they come?

Om Shanti

Sitara

advaitin , " snsastri " <sn.sastri wrote:

>

> ;kriyamANa' means `what is being done'. So the karma acquired during the

present life is kriyamANa and is the same as AgAmi karma. No part of the AgAmi

karma comes into fruition in this life. It will be added to the karma brought

forward from earlier births and the total will be the sanchita karma at the time

of death. A portion of this total sanchita karma will become the prArabdha

karma for the next birth. `prArabdha' means `what has started', i.e., what has

started yielding fruit. sanchita means `accumulated'. Agami means what is to

accrue in the future, that is, after the present birth.

> Regards,

> S.N.Sastri

>

May 10, 2009

Dear Santoshji, dear Bhaskaranji

Pranams

thank you for your input, pointing to ultimate truth. There is no question that

what you say is true on paramarthika level - meaning ultimately true and real.

In contrast to the theory of karma which is true on vyavaharika level only -

ultimately untrue and unreal.

Theory of karma still serves a valuable purpose though. Even if I may be able to

look through it, it is still a very valuable concept for seekers who do

> believe their present physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality.

It helps to relax and calm the mind, so they may be able to develop more

vairagya.

It may help others to take more responsability and act more according to dharma.

So it can be important to understand the theory of karma in depths and detail,

in order to explain it to others, even if you yourself may not need it anymore.

Om Shanti

Sitara

advaitin , " santthoshkumaar " <santthoshkumaar wrote:

>

> Pranamas,

>

> The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

> physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri,

> Sankara declares the world itself is illusion,

May 10, 2009

Santthoshkumar PraNams

With due respects, I have to say that there is a fundamental problem in this as

well as in your other mails.

The problem is common - that is mixing up paaramaartika with vyaavahaarika - or

mixing up two reference states in the discussion.

First illusion is wrong word to use for the world - it is mithyaa - that is, it

is neither sat nor asat - that means it is not absolutely real nor it is unreal

like a son of a barren woman.

All the discussion, as I had mentioned before, including the karma, jnaana,

ajnaana, etc come under vyaavahaarika or mithyaa only.

Now please think more deeply of the statements you made and see the problem in

the statement yourself.

-----

The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri,

Sankara declares the world itself is illusion, and Brahman is real, then

what value the karma theory has when the world is illusion, because man

is part and parcel of the illusory world.

---------

Now question yourself - who are those who do not believe their present physical

identity are real? - are they themselves real or illusion not to believe, as per

your statement. Hence both believers as well as non-believers are illusion only.

Then the next statement - Shankara declares - to whom and who is Shankara to

declare - is he illusory Shankara or real Shankara and is the declaration that

the world is illusion - is that statement itself illusory or real? Why illusory

people should care for the illusory Shankara about the illusory declarations. If

you say you are Brahman - end of the story - even though that statement is also

of illusory in nature.

Can you see the problem you get into - the problem is mixing-up the reference

states?

Vyaavahaarika is satyam at the level and one REALIZES that it is mithyaa or

illusion (using your word) ONLY when one has realized that I am Brahman. Then

and then only the whole discussion has no relevance since you have transcended

this vyaavahaarika satyam reference. Then also you may say that the illusory

discussion on the karma is valid for the illusory people who are participating

in the discussion.

Let me ask you more directly:

Why do you eat everyday the food if the food is illusion? Would you be kind

enough to transform all you illusory money in your bank account or keep sending

me your illusory pay checks to me so that I can help some illusory people who

are starving due to the lack of illusory food.

My apology if this is offensive. The point I am driving at is very important

since this communication all though mithyaa is real, its frame of reference;

although the fact of the matter is I could use the donations to help some

innocent children who are partially or full deaf.

One has to be careful from what reference the discusions, the self-realization,

brahman, etc are pointed out. From absolute point all the discussion stops - not

even there is an illusion to point out that it is an illusion.

Hope this is clear.

Hari Om!

Sadananda

--- On Sun, 5/10/09, santthoshkumaar <santthoshkumaar wrote:

The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

physical identity [ego] as real,

May 10, 2009

thank ks ji...very defining piece of words written...shambho shankara.

suresh.

-- In advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:

>

> Santthoshkumar PraNams

>

> With due respects, I have to say that there is a fundamental problem in this

as well as in your other mails.

>

> The problem is common - that is mixing up paaramaartika with vyaavahaarika -

or mixing up two reference states in the discussion.

>

> First illusion is wrong word to use for the world - it is mithyaa - that is,

it is neither sat nor asat - that means it is not absolutely real nor it is

unreal like a son of a barren woman.

>

> All the discussion, as I had mentioned before, including the karma, jnaana,

ajnaana, etc come under vyaavahaarika or mithyaa only.

>

> Now please think more deeply of the statements you made and see the problem in

the statement yourself.

>

> -----

> The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

> physical identity [ego] as real, and world as reality. When Sri,

> Sankara declares the world itself is illusion, and Brahman is real, then

> what value the karma theory has when the world is illusion, because man

> is part and parcel of the illusory world.

> ---------

> Now question yourself - who are those who do not believe their present

physical identity are real? - are they themselves real or illusion not to

believe, as per your statement. Hence both believers as well as non-believers

are illusion only. Then the next statement - Shankara declares - to whom and who

is Shankara to declare - is he illusory Shankara or real Shankara and is the

declaration that the world is illusion - is that statement itself illusory or

real? Why illusory people should care for the illusory Shankara about the

illusory declarations. If you say you are Brahman - end of the story - even

though that statement is also of illusory in nature.

>

> Can you see the problem you get into - the problem is mixing-up the reference

states?

>

> Vyaavahaarika is satyam at the level and one REALIZES that it is mithyaa or

illusion (using your word) ONLY when one has realized that I am Brahman. Then

and then only the whole discussion has no relevance since you have transcended

this vyaavahaarika satyam reference. Then also you may say that the illusory

discussion on the karma is valid for the illusory people who are participating

in the discussion.

>

> Let me ask you more directly:

>

> Why do you eat everyday the food if the food is illusion? Would you be kind

enough to transform all you illusory money in your bank account or keep sending

me your illusory pay checks to me so that I can help some illusory people who

are starving due to the lack of illusory food.

>

> My apology if this is offensive. The point I am driving at is very important

since this communication all though mithyaa is real, its frame of reference;

although the fact of the matter is I could use the donations to help some

innocent children who are partially or full deaf.

>

> One has to be careful from what reference the discusions, the

self-realization, brahman, etc are pointed out. From absolute point all the

discussion stops - not even there is an illusion to point out that it is an

illusion.

>

> Hope this is clear.

> Hari Om!

> Sadananda

>

> --- On Sun, 5/10/09, santthoshkumaar <santthoshkumaar wrote:

>

> The karma theory is reality only for those who believe their present

> physical identity [ego] as real,

>

May 11, 2009

advaitin , " Sitara " <smitali17 wrote:

> Still I am surprised about this statement as I heard Swami Paramarthanandaji

say that experiences in this life are determined by a mixture of prarabdha- and

agami karma.(of which the biggest portion must be prarabdha; from my notes on

Swamijis lectures on Tattvabodha, Law of karma).

>

> He gives the example of seeds, some fructify after a longer, some after

shorter period of time. Is it not that there are karmas that come to fruition in

the same life time? If one can call them neither prarabdha karma, nor agami

karma, under which name do they come?

>

> Om Shanti

>

> Sitara

Dear Sitara-ji,

What I have heard from my teachers and read in books is that only the prarabdha

karma gives its fruits in this life. That is the general rule. But one exception

is stated and that is that if a person commits a very heinous sin he may get the

punishment for it in the same birth. This is only a general belief and is not

specifically stated in the upanishads. What the upanishads say is that only the

prarabdha karma gives its fruits in this life.

What Swami Paramarthananda has said may have some basis, but I am not aware of

such a view.

Best wishes,

S.N.Sastri

May 11, 2009

But one exception is stated and that is that if a person commits a very

heinous sin he may get the punishment for it in the same birth.

praNAms

Hare Krishna

I've one more additional doubt here...If all karma-s & karma phala-s

(irrespective of puNya or pApa) are to be experienced in mortal body on the

earth...what type of karma phala we are going to exhaust in swarga (heaven)

& naraka (hell) ?? As we know, garuda purANa is full of threating calls

of tortures that one has to undergo for his various sins at the shop floor

of yamadharma rAja :-)) !! Is it only a part of his/her saNchita karma

phala he is going to exhaust in celestial abodes?? What is the role of

karma phala daata here in this whole set of scenario?? Kindly clarify...

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

May 11, 2009

advaitin , kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada